March 8, 2018 Show with Jason Wallace on “Is the Pope Catholic?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity who are listening via live streaming all over the planet earth at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron wishing you a happy Thursday and today is the eighth day of March 2018.

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I'm delighted to have returning to the program my friend Jason Wallace.

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Jason Wallace has been a guest on this program quite a number of times and I am always thrilled to have him back.

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He's the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah which is near Salt Lake City and he is the producer of lds .video

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and we're going to hear about a lot of the videos that they have produced, very professional level and highly informative and valuable videos on Mormonism especially but also on Roman Catholicism, homosexuality and other issues.

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Today we are discussing that age -old rhetorical question, is the

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Pope Catholic and we are starting to wonder whether or not that is a rhetorical question anymore and we'll find out more why on the program and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jason Wallace.

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Chris, always privileged to be with you. And I'm going to right away give our email address for those of our listeners who care to join us on the air with a question of their own.

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It is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and I can see an issue like this lending itself to someone wanting to remain anonymous.

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Perhaps you're a Roman Catholic and you're beginning to question your faith and you'd rather not draw attention to yourself. I can understand that.

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Perhaps you're an Evangelical Protestant who is beginning to question your faith and you're beginning to drift across the

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Tiber River toward Rome and I've met a number of folks, in fact

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I know that there is a number of, are a number of folks in this listening audience who are considering becoming

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Roman Catholic. Some of them converting to Roman Catholicism for the first time or reverting, having been

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Catholic from childhood and then having left it and some are after a number of years in the

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Evangelical Christian community are considering returning to it. Well my guest and I are both

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Reformed Protestants, he an Orthodox Presbyterian and myself being a Reformed Baptist and we both believe that that would be a spiritually fatal move because we do not believe the

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Roman Catholic Church is a true church nor do we believe it has a true gospel although we would both admit that thanks be to the grace and mercy of Christ there are many

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Roman Catholics who are indeed saved but that is in spite of the teaching there and these people would be folks who very often believed in the genuine or should

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I say in every in every instance that they're truly saved they believe in the true gospel of the

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Bible of Christ that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone but they are either ignorant of the fact that the

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Church of Rome does not teach that and I've met a number of Catholics who aren't aware of that or they are for some reason remaining

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Catholic and thinking that they will be a 21st century Martin Luther or something like that or for various other reasons out of fear of breaking up their family or their marriage and the list could go on and on but Jason before we go deeper into our theme of is the

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Pope Catholic tell us for those of our listeners who are discovering you for the first time because this is only the third episode

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I don't know if you're aware of this Pastor Jason this is the third episode of Iron Trip and Zion Radio on a brand new network

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First Love Radio operating out of Dublin California and we are heard globally and I'm not even sure you were on the program when we were also added to the lineup of Grace Life Radio 90 .1

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FM in Lake City Florida but so there may be many new listeners who have never heard you before who are unfamiliar with your the debates that you've orchestrated and participate participated in there in Magna Utah featuring

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James White featuring yourself and featuring others but tell us about Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna Utah.

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Sure we're a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church we're essentially a conservative

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Bible -believing remnant of the Presbyterian Church we're not part of the mainline that ordains men and women who some of them say that Jesus is not divine they're practicing what

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God calls an abomination things like this you know we we believe the Bible's the Word of God and I'm in my 20th year of ministry actually just coming up on my 20th anniversary in just a few weeks and we started from scratch we're basically in the

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Salt Lake City metro area you can see downtown Salt Lake from Magna I mean it's it's it's just part of the urban sprawl basically these days but the

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Lord's blessed we have an organized congregation here we're blessed with a building and we have a sister congregation up in Ogden we have tried to be aggressive in outreach from the beginning the

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Protestant population and this is just those that are on the books and this is anything remotely considered by the statisticians as Protestant basically from liberal mainline to you know whatever remotely non -Catholic thing out there is just barely over four percent in Salt Lake County and you get out into the adjoining areas like down in Utah County it's about two -thirds of one percent there are actually more

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Protestants per capita in Egypt, India, China, or Japan than there are in the next county south of us.

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Wow I could I know that what makes that startling is that you've included Japan because Japan is less than one percent

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Christian if the statistics are still the same as they were back in the earlier 2000s.

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I had a listener in Japan who wrote in to me thanking me for a broadcast

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I conducted exposing the heresies of the Moonies and she had wrote in because she was she and her husband were

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Moonies involved in an arranged marriage by Reverend Sung Young Moon the late

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Reverend Sung Young Moon and she the the burden of her heart was to find a bible -believing church because the only one even remotely near her was a

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Roman Catholic church and she said and I had heard that this was true at that time anyway that Japan is less than one percent

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Christian I don't know if that's still accurate you know anything about that? I think it's about that I think it's

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I mean I think it last I saw and I'm pulling this from memory

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I think it's supposed to be I think just over one percent Catholic and and about two well over half percent or two -thirds percent

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Protestant or something in that neighborhood. Utah County has gone up a little bit but it used to be right at one half of one percent so it's kind of wow wow that's that's amazing and that's that's including like the

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United Church of Christ that's including the Episcopal Church that's including churches that really don't hold to anything resembling the historic biblical faith anymore but we've tried to be aggressive in outreach we've done hundreds of book tables through that got introduced many years ago to Dr.

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James White he used to come up here twice a year his ministry actually started with Mormons Mesa is very big

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LDS area down near Phoenix and so he would come up to the general conference twice a year that the

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LDS have and hand out tracts so got introduced to him not long after we started ministry here and found out about his ability to do debates

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I and so I asked him if he'd be interested in doing debates here so I started arranging debates and we had some great ones for a while until some of the guys down at BYU basically put the kibosh on it they we had a retired

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LDS Institute of Religion professor PhD from BYU debate

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James at a local high school here we've had we had a professor from BYU we had a number of of high caliber representatives but they didn't do so well and a couple of things coincided that he basically was not able to come up here any longer the street preachers came to town and made it impossible to have any kind of conversation with people they were screaming and yelling and they were even mocking

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James White and you know they were making all kinds of loud accusations against people they didn't even know so it became hard to track and then the folks down at BYU put the word out that no one was supposed to do debates with us anymore so I'd seen the impact of these and I started doing some debates myself because I'm not a debater

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James is James is a debater he's he's an amazing apologist but I realized that I knew their arguments and I'd moderated and so I started doing some of the debates with some of the popular guys that were not as high caliber but they would debate and so we did some debates that led to eventually doing a live call -in show on a local

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Christian TV station and we did that for seven and a half years then a couple years ago they sold the

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TV station it's been two and a half years now and so we started trying to crystallize what we've been doing at the

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TV show and with our other outreach we started making evangelistic videos and we've made eight evangelistic videos for Mormons one for the gay

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Christian movement and we're in the middle of making the one for the Catholics there's a lot of stuff out there that is about people and telling you here's all the reasons they're wrong there's there's not a lot that's directed towards the people themselves and if it is directed towards them it often doesn't deal with the gospel very well you know we've our the first video we did is nearly two hours long is called an earnest plea to latter -day saints and if people deal with any kind of theological issue with Mormons typically they jump straight to works righteousness well works righteousness makes perfect sense if your god is one among a multitude of gods and basically just an exalted man we try to go back and deal with who is god and show them that the god of the bible is the one the heavens of heavens can't contain he is radically more glorious radically more holy and works righteousness makes absolutely no sense when you really know who god is and so we've made a number of other videos meant to sort of feed towards that big one we've also done after mormonism atheism most people don't realize how strong atheism is here uh salt lake city proper has an open lesbian mayor who flies the rainbow flag from city hall um we we have a very large number of open atheists here uh within salt lake city proper not not in the metro area so much but in in the city itself um we did another one for people coming out of mormonism called after mormonism now what and we deal with the the prejudices against biblical christianity that many ex -mormons take with them out of the church they've been they've been taught their whole lives that if mormonism isn't true nothing's true and so we try to take that apart we deal with the lives my church taught me about the bible the lives my church taught me about jesus and the lives my church taught me about other churches and so we've done those we did an earnest plea to gay christians which basically is about a 30 a little over 30 minute video dealing with the arguments that you hear from guys like matthew vines and trying to answer those uh biblically and pastorally and um you know now we're working on what's probably going to be about an hour and a half video uh aimed towards roman catholics well as i always do whenever you mention the title of the video uh where you use the phrase gay christian uh an earnest plea to a gay christian is that what it is yeah and and we have to make sure that we make it clear that we don't believe there's such a thing that's a that's an oxymoron that's actually the conclusion of the video you have to choose you know what are you going to be uh because you can't be both you uh it is an oxymoron and we we demonstrate that from scripture um and try to answer many of the arguments you'll hear in that video one of the arguments that often gets sort of ignored but seems to be a really crucial one for people who claim to be gay christians is well the bible doesn't speak about loving committed relationships and so what we do is in with first corinthians 6 we back up a chapter and we look at uh the the sin of incest which is condemned in leviticus 18 and 20 just as homosexual behavior is um and here's a we have a situation in first corinthians 5 a man has married his father's wife and we try to show that this is not you know there's no special circumstances because it's a loving committed relationship it's porneia it's sexual immorality and the man's ex communicated for it and thankfully brought to repentance but we try to give the classic arguments but also deal with the ones that often i think get ignored and and give room to people to to to ignore the explicit statements elsewhere well uh the uh before we even go into is the pope catholic which is our major theme today you had a recent discussion debate i don't know which you would how you would describe it circus uh sideshow uh i can think of a lot of terms well sean mccraney who has a television program in utah who is a former mormon uh had a confrontation or however you want to describe it on his television program with our mutual friend dr james r white of alpha omega ministries who is a reformed baptist apologist who is a new testament greek scholar who is a world -renowned debater and um we could go on and on with the accolades of dr white most of my listeners i think know who he is and he uh was making an effort to by god's grace point sean mccraney to his errors in regard to modalism i believe was the primary uh subject of that discussion now if you could please first of all tell us who sean mccraney is in a more vivid detailed explanation and tell us about modalism that's something that for any of our roman catholic friends and listeners are still listening before we get to the question is the pope catholic although we do not consider uh dogmatically faithful catholics as our brothers and sisters we know that they at least agree with us on the trinity but if you could uh explain who sean mccraney is and tell us about modalism a bit sure uh sean was uh he was born and raised uh in the lds church uh in california he uh i understand was a seminary teacher there for a while which is uh basically junior high high school uh it's not it's not equivalent to a protestant or even a catholic seminary it's basically just religious education for high school students um he became disillusioned with mormonism he began taking some classes at calvary chapel school of ministry he wrote a book entitled i was a born -again mormon and in that book he basically argued that people could be born again and stay in the mormon church and there are people here in utah who have been trying to push that uh for for many years one of them uh brought him to town interviewed him and though sean had only attended an evangelical worship service by his own admission two or three times in his life they get him made a televangelist and sean starts out as fairly reserved and careful but he quickly realizes that people are looking for him uh not to take that uh kind of approach but more to bash mormonism and so he complies and by his own admission on the air he said you know i've been rude i've been crude i've been insulting um and it became um he became very popular among a lot of ex -mormons and became very popular in a lot of evangelical churches uh he did it was his show that actually encouraged me to try to seek a show as well because i was frustrated with what they were doing and sean was preaching a fairly popular easy believism um nothing really um heretical but um but not not the historic biblical gospel either it's you know basically um a personal relationship with jesus which is whatever you define it to be um you know it's me my bible my personal relationship uh that i get to find the idea of repentance the idea of holiness the idea of being part of a visible church uh those were actually seen as impediments to real spirituality um and they can be of course but he he does that for a number of years but then a few years ago his he'd become sort of a rock star in town i mean he'd have a mass of people show up for the recording of his you know live show on tuesday nights and then he would go and hold court in a local bar or restaurant and um he was very very popular but as that popularity began to wane he decided he was going uh he said there's only 13 million at the time um mormons but there's a billion evangelicals and so he declares war on evangelicalism and of course he tries to pick the worst uh by the way don't we calvinists do that all the time i'm just kidding he was i'm just kidding oh yeah i mean the funny thing is when when all the dust settled sean got kicked off of tv 20 and uh he started a podcast and when he finally came out fully with things he uh it's funny you mentioned calvinist because he was um he hates the doctrines of grace he calls the god of calvinist a monster uh who only makes people to be kindling for hell he says and he announces that uh everybody gets out of hell eventually that hell is meant to be redemptive and so he's a universalist oh yes uh he calls himself an ultimate reconciliationist but yeah he's a universalist um and he uh sean doesn't hold to consistently to position so you know when thomas monson just died he said that he believed thomas monson was in heaven uh this is the lds prophet uh he he then announces that um he's a full preterist that the second coming was in 70 a .d

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and that there is no future uh resurrection there's no future uh second coming it's all over everything was fulfilled in 70 a .d

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and then he declared war on the trinity he called it unbiblical garbage rooted in polytheistic paganism and so i challenged him um there have been a couple of other people who challenged him uh he invited us over for an open forum for those who were questioning his teachings and i knew it was going to be some kind of ambush and i show up and it's inquisition 2014 and you know he springs this whole thing on us and you know we're supposed to make a presentation on the fly and and he gets up there and says that uh these men want to kill me they would burn me at the stake if they could he says they want to call me a modalist i'm not a modalist well about six eight months later he admits yes he is uh basically sean's view is that there's one god who who manifests himself in different ways now sean's not consistent in this he'll jump all over the board in fact he admitted during his discussion with dr white that he was inconsistent oh yeah i mean and to sean this is this is and to his followers this is a badge of honor it's it's a mark of authenticity you know he's literally gotten up in front of on tv and said uh he said these uh he says i'm wrong 90 percent of the time but i care about truth all these men care about is being right and his people eat it up because the gist of it it's not a very high bar for anybody else to aim for in their own lives or their own understanding i mean sean sean has repackaged mormonism to a great extent he makes people feel pious in their ignorance and in their contempt of others if you can make people feel pious in hatred you can get a following and sean's done that he he openly mocks all churches all pastors uh he says that there is no physicality to christianity left there aren't there um it's all spiritual he mocks the idea of of christianity being based on the bible he says it's not sola scriptura you know the latin for scripture alone he says it's sola spiritus which is not only bad latin but really really bad theology and um he admits that he is like joseph smith a lot of ways he says that he was born like joseph smith with a call upon his head to challenge the church of his day and i'm like uh this is this is not a good thing sean you know he was a false prophet sean says he's not a prophet he's just sharing what he thinks the spirit is telling him and it's like that's that's a prophet but anyway um sean did all this over the last couple of years and then he kind of backed off for a while or at least you know went kind of dormant then he um back in october started a whole new stick um and he went after me and a number of other pastors by name called us all cowards i've gone on his show again a couple of times he when we was attacking the bible i critiqued him and he challenged me to come on to uh the first was inquisition 2014 then it was the confrontation i always feel like i'm showing up to a wwe event when i go over there it kind of looks like he could be in the uh oh yeah professional wrestling world yeah well show before last um i tune in sometimes just see if he's what he's what direction he's going because he's still got a big following here um yeah he he was really really mad that someone had called him fat and he was talking about how his grandmother was 800 pounds i literally this is what he's saying um of course was using lots of profanity and everything else but uh he brought don preston to town who has written a bunch of and so yeah he's like the uh the key speaker it seems on hyper preterism yeah and i have met him myself at a debate that he was involved in i know who he is yeah i i'm scott's irish so when i heard he was coming to town i had one week's notice and the guy's written 20 -something books and i know i'm not a debater but i went over and defended the um the second coming uh as best i could and by god's grace some people that at least one person that had been under sean sway left as a result of um what she heard that day and i'm very thankful for that but when sean uh went on the warpath and was you know denouncing everybody i had told james white about it and dr white uh called into his show and said you're looking for somebody to defend the friendly outcome defend it so he came and he and defended it and did wonderfully very gentle very godly very thorough um but sean spends it like he spends everything else uh he's he's it's it's basically a cult i mean it it's mormonism repackaged all the churches are wrong all their creeds according to sean are heinous the pastors are all in it for the money sounds like joseph smith exactly i mean exactly it's you don't have to you don't have god being an exalted man and a plurality of god of course you didn't have that early on with smith either uh you you had um uh there was a great apostasy and now the spirit is being restored and it's like this is this is mormonism without the temples and without um you know some of the other trappings but this is the heart of mormonism and so he's repackaged it for people who come out of that mindset that have been burned by mormonism but really aren't look they're not looking for god they know they've been lied to but he gives them a new form of it so james came to town um he spoke for us uh sunday and monday and then went on his show tuesday and if people get a chance to see that it's on youtube um if you just type in james white and sean mccraney s -h -a -w -n mccraney m -c -c -r -a -n -e -y well it was it was very clear painfully obvious that dr white uh had the spirit of god and the truth on his side uh and you could even see that it really developed into a teacher student kind of a scenario where dr white was really being recognized even by sean mccraney and as some kind of a superior i mean it was to me blatantly obvious that's the way it developed of course i'm not saying it remained that way after dr white left the building but um he he he at the very least at the very least sean mccraney during the event seemed to be very open and polite and eager to hear dr white's explanations of things yeah i mean sean knows sean knows how to deal with things i mean he's he's he's a cunning man and so uh the way he would deal with james white who's an experienced debater knows material inside now it's not the way he would deal with other people but uh there there are folks who still have some hope for for sean sean's heard this material numerous times before but in the past he did the same thing he's done now since james left he's basically spun it and he's ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth but we have to go to a break right now and when we return we will switch gears and begin the program with the main topic at hand uh which is is the pope catholic once a rhetorical question meant to be humorous now a question that is being taken very seriously by catholics and protestants alike uh and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away we'll be right back with pastor jason wallace on is the pope catholic right after these messages tired of bop store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship and how about the preaching perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island well there's good news wedding river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of god's word and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631 -929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc .us

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that's wrbc .us i'm james white of alpha omega ministries the new american standard bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors scholars and everyday readers the nasb is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable bible translation the nasb offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the nasb is known for the nasb is available in many editions like a topical reference bible researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues from compacted giant print bibles find an nasb that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com

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forward slash iron sharpens today Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor welcome back this is chris arnzen and that voice you just heard uh pastor bill shishko is a mutual friend of my guest today and mine my friend pastor jason wallace and i have known pastor bill shishko for quite a long time and if you call in to a visit to the pastor's study pastor bill shishko's live call -in show which is heard every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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eastern time on wlie540am .com and also in the new york tri -state area and even parts of rhode island and massachusetts and pennsylvania you can hear it on the am dial on your radio at 5 40 a .m

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but if you call in to the show please tell pastor bill that you heard about a visit to the pastor's study from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio and tell him that chris arnzen and pastor jason wallace send their greetings in fact pastor bill shishko does quite a number of voiceovers for your documentaries that you have recorded or produced under the umbrella of lds .video

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correct yeah i can only think of one other person who's actually done more i guess that's me yeah they um bill bill's uh good brother and been very very helpful as as have you and we couldn't have couldn't have done these things without all the help we've received well uh let me repeat our email address for anybody who would like to send in a question and we do have a couple of people uh waiting to have their questions asked and answered but i want to get into the subject a little bit before i read their questions uh the the theme of today is is the pope catholic and we kind of can't help but chuckle about that because it's an age -old saying that is meant to be stating the obvious it's really not a question it's like do you love spaghetti and meatballs as the pope catholic and there's another one about a bear that i will not mention on air on a christian radio program but uh i mean and there's another one does the pope wear a funny hat but um that one we know is true as far as the pope being catholic well obviously he is a member of what is known as the roman catholic church but he has been making statements and declaring things not dogmatically not ex cathedra or ex cathedra depending upon how you want to state that which would be dogmatically binding in the church of rome if the pope declares something or defines something dogmatically or declares it ex cathedra or ex cathedra that means that every catholic forever until christ returns is supposed to believe that those things cannot be changed but the things that the but pope francis the current pope has been saying quite a lot even i think before he was a pope when he was a cardinal he was saying things that would uh delight leftists and liberals and apostates and make not only bible believing protestants cringe with disgust and discomfort and horror at times even your conservative and especially your traditionalist roman catholics would react in the same way so please tell us uh about the the major theme i know that is the pope catholic is a subcategory of a major theme in one of your documentaries that you're actually currently working on correct and we're basically using the current concern a lot of catholics have over francis to try to to get back to the bigger historical issues because you know our contention is that yes francis is obviously not catholic uh he's contradicting previous popes and one one qualifier to what you said earlier i don't know if you were aware uh august 24th of last year uh pope francis um made what i mean there's no standard so i'm sure that apologists can explain it all the way if they have to in the future but he actually made the statement we can affirm with certainty and magisterial authority that the liturgical reform is irreversible that's a quote and so he's stating it with magisterial authority and what specifically was he referring to as far as uh magisterial reform uh the liturgical liturgical reform i'm sorry the liturgical reforms um made with vatican too and oh for instance like uh the english mass and things like that yeah i mean you you have you have a lot of confusion uh i mean in in some parts of the world as i understand it uh eating meat on fridays is uh considered a mortal sin it hasn't been since 1968 in the u .s

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uh but in the u .s you've got some diocese that um they're kneeling uh i think what is it after the agnes day and uh some don't allow that and it's they're saying it's a mortal sin if you do what was the practice as long as anyone can remember and now can you repeat what you just said for some reason that did not register in my ears correctly or at all yeah i've never been catholic um so i'm pulling a little bit of this off the top of my head but i've seen some of the discussion within catholic circles that in certain diocese if you kneel i think this is an issue in california if you kneel after the agnes day which is a traditional um response that's not what the bishop tells you to do and therefore it's considered a mortal sin to follow the historic practice of kneeling after the agnes day there's just a lot of confusion in the catholic church these days um we're playing off of people's discomfort with francis to go back and look at the catholic church itself um historically the the heart of the protestant reformation has largely been lost on many non -catholics today there are very few confessional protestants out there you know most of the mainline churches abandoned that long ago and have abandoned biblical christianity and a lot of the broad evangelicals they don't really identify themselves historically and just just a little bit to clarify since some of our listeners maybe a lot of them are scratching their heads the agnes day is where the priest says lamb of god who takes away the sins of the world have mercy on us correct okay right yeah i'm sorry i was raised roman catholic and was an altar boy and went to catholic school for eight years uh before uh coming to christ uh through the biblical gospel and the power grace and mercy of christ so anyway i'm sorry i interrupted you there yeah i i was taught latin by a catholic priest for two years and then flirted with catholicism before the lord uh saved me but i'm not that i'm not that personally familiar with um you know some of some of the the the worship elements you know in terms of the liturgy but in terms of um the the focus of video to a great extent we're playing off of the the current confusion to point out that it's not just francis who's not catholic but but the the papacy itself is not catholic um what what most protestants i use that term very broadly in this sense today have forgotten is that the the protestant reformation was not simply the bible versus um tradition it was a recovery of tradition that was seen as fallible uh it was going back to the bible which alone was seen as the infallible word of god but uh the the reformers took great comfort that they were reading the bible in much the same way as guys like augustine and john chrysostom and and a host of others in the early church uh the printing press that had made the bible available also made the writings of the church fathers available and so in john calvin's institutes of the christian religion uh you know which was the major work uh for uh the reformation and uh from my perspective in terms of the shape that it took outside of lutheran circles uh john calvin quotes over 800 times i think it's something like 860 some odd times he quotes from church fathers because the contention of the reformed was that 16th century roman catholicism had abandoned the catholic faith they had not just abandoned how the protestants read the bible but how the early church had read the bible as well and so at the beginning of the video one of the things that we play off of is a term that catholics love to throw around is from uh cardinal newman in the 19th century where he says that to be deep in history is to cease to be protestant well that's another lie uh they love to they love to assert it but to actually go back and look at history is uh something altogether that's every time i look into her history i am more and more confirmed that i was correct uh due to the guiding of the holy spirit to leave and abandon and renounce the roman catholic church and become a bible believing protestant and more specifically a reformed baptist yeah the first section of the video is called the uh you know the unanimous consent of the fathers which is a term that uh roman catholics love to throw around you know they claim they have the unanimous consent of the fathers well of course the reality is they don't but most people don't read the church fathers most people only read their bibles uh so you know it plays well with people who don't know their history but we we start with the story of athanasius who stood against church councils and against the bishop of rome the pope liberius he was actually condemned by liberius and um this is this is a thing that uh roman catholics will throw up all kinds of dust to try to distract they'll say you know well he was tortured he was suffering he's accountable you know this doesn't really affect anything but the reality is that the father of orthodoxy athanasius the man who essentially stood contra mundum against the world in defending the full deity of christ he stood against church councils he stood against the pope on the basis of the bible he makes very clear that the bible was his standard he doesn't reject tradition but he understood the tradition was a mix of truth and error he didn't reject councils he appealed to the council of nicaea but he recognized that councils contradict one another the the arians um you know many people think that after the council of nicaea the arians were driven into exile and you know uh constantine you know established uh trinitarianism forever wrong the full deity of christ um basically uh you had three and uh 316 out of 318 bishops affirmed the full deity of christ at nicaea in in 325 but as heretics typically do uh the the arians they went in uh they were forced into exile but they said we've not been understood and so they repackaged what they were saying and fairly quickly constantine allows them to come back and to take up positions in the church again and he saw those who opposed him as troublemakers well within 10 years of the council of nicaea in the year 320 uh which had been 325 and 335 10 years later for opposing arianism athanasius who had become the bishop of alexandria is forced into exile so now it's not the arians who are trying to make jesus into some kind of lesser god you know not fully god um they're saying he's not of the same essence or substance as the father he's a sort of demigod uh the uh athanasius stands against this and he ends up being condemned by councils he ends up being condemned by the pope of rome and yet he stood firm and then we're going to return to athanasius contra mundum after the middle break which is a longer break than normal it's 12 minutes long because grace life radio 90 .1

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chris arnzen at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back after this midway break with pastor jason wallace and the age -old rhetorical question is the pope catholic one sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air to support my advertisers i know you all use batteries every day so i'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use battery depot .com

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that's chef exclusive .com paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man if i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ hi i'm mark lucans pastor of providence baptist church we are reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in nofolk massachusetts we strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love if you live near norfolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org

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and click support at the top of the page but most importantly keep iron sharpens iron radio in your prayers we hope that iron sharpens iron radio blesses you for many years to come linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

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that's linbrookbaptist .org hi i'm chris arnson of iron sharpens iron radio are you a christian looking to a lot then you'll want to check out thrive in financial they're not your typical financial services provider they're a not -for -profit fortune 500 organization that helps their nearly 2 .4

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio welcome back this is chris arns and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is my friend pastor jason wallace pastor of christ presbyterian church in magna utah which is a suburb of salt lake city we are discussing the theme is the pope catholic if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the usa and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter you just heard before i started speaking an ad by our sponsors one of our key sponsors of this program solid ground christian books well you might not know this but they have an amazing offer that they are currently making available the complete works of thomas manton thomas manton was a puritan and they have his complete works that are going to be put into print very soon in hardback and a very high quality binding uh they did this a decade ago at solid ground christian books and they are doing it again only if they get enough orders so they have a pre -order sale that is absolutely amazing actually because it's this series this 22 volume set normally retails for a thousand dollars and solid ground christian books if you are interested in the pre -order a sale you will get this uh 22 volume set of hardbacks for only $299 and 95 cents and you have nothing to worry about uh in regard to uh if solid grand christian books doesn't make their goal in order to have enough orders that are required to bring this 22 volume set back into print in hardcover because they are not going to charge your debit or credit card until the books are in print so if you just want to place the pre -order go to solid -ground -books .com

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and make sure you tell them that you heard about this sale this pre -publication sale on the on the complete works of thomas manton that you heard about this from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio also our friends at the alliance of confessing evangelicals are once again sponsoring orchestrating the philadelphia conference on reform theology uh it is going to be held at two locations next month neither of which is philadelphia they are affectionately calling this the philadelphia conference on reform theology and have for a number of years just in memory of the late dr james montgomery boyce and the series of conferences that he ran for many years at 10th presbyterian church in philadelphia pennsylvania so although they are not held exactly in philadelphia they still retain that name and they uh the conference is being held august 13th through the 15th in brin i'm sorry in byron center michigan and also april 27th through the 29th in brin mar pennsylvania the speakers include daniel aiken richard gaffin daniel hyde conrad and bayway who i believe is one of the most powerful preachers on the planet earth alive today richard phillips who's a friend of mine been a who's been a guest on this program many times uh pastor of the second presbyterian church in greenville south carolina jonathan master david murray and scott oliphant uh who have been those last three names two of them have been on this program a number of times and we're still hoping to get scott oliphant on the program very soon but if you'd like to register for this conference the theme this year at both locations is the spirit of the age and the age of the spirit go to alliancenet .org

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click on support and send a check made payable to iron sharpens iron radio to that address i thank all of you who already are doing that some of you are doing it bi -monthly uh some of you i think are doing it nearly every week i am just blown away by your support and i'm blown away by the fact that you appear to love this program enough that you send us your own hard -earned money to keep this program on the air if you want to advertise with us send me an email to chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com and our guest as i said is pastor jason wallace of christ presbyterian church of magna utah and the producer of lds .video

01:12:03

today we are discussing is the pope catholic and right before the break you were talking about athanasia athanasius uh and the the famous saying uh athanasius contra mundum which means athanasius against the world because there was a time when nearly everyone even in leadership in the catholic church was in opposition to athanasius as he was defending the deity of christ uh opposed to the arian view that is commonly held by jehovah's witnesses today that jesus was not truly god while also being truly man if you could continue where we left off sure um when you go back through history you find that roman catholicism the argument from from cardinal newman was that it had grown like an oak from an acorn uh reality is very different when you go back to the church fathers you find that there's truth and error just like you you look at people today uh there there are very godly uh ministers today that that i wouldn't agree with on everything um the and i think that that goes across the board um we had dr james white preach for us uh we disagree on a few things he's baptist i'm presbyterian we we agree on the vast majority of things um you find that in the early church as well you find a mixture a mixture of truth and error um all through church history with athanasius um you really didn't have a pope in the in the modern sense you had a bishop of rome uh who was called popham but athanasius himself was also called popham it was a tradition that had um developed over time all bishops were called popham a century earlier you had ciprian uh the bishop of carthage being called popham or pope i have a friend gary wolf on long island who calls me that for some reason i have no idea why you're very fortunate i'm called a lot of things i can't repeat on the air well i would be in that category as well but um yeah i um when you when you go through the history of athanasius what you have is someone doing uh something very similar to the protestant reformers but over a thousand years earlier they're standing on authority of the word of god and they're using that to oppose what other people say is the tradition of the church and what other people say uh are the are the just decisions of councils um that the athanasius didn't reject tradition or uh councils neither did the protestant reformers protestant reformers looked at councils and learned from them and they felt they were valuable they didn't think they were infallible though one of one of the classic games that catholic apologists will play is they try to make the protestant doctrine of sola scriptura in into only scripture as the source of any knowledge right and that's not the doctrine of sola scriptura doctrine sola scriptura is that the scripture alone is infallible we believe it is sufficient but we learn from how other people have read the scriptures before us we hold their traditions up to the light of god's word but the point i was making before the break protestant reformation was not about a rejection of catholicism it was about a recovery of catholicism because as the reformers are reading the scriptures they're not finding uh the adoration of mary they're not finding indulgences they're not finding purgatory they're not finding transubstantiation they're not finding a priest and all these other things that they're not finding popes they're not finding these things and then they start reading augustine and chrysostom and and a host of others and they find out they didn't find them in the scriptures either you know this is something that developed over the course of hundreds of years you know i to give people perspective i remind them of our own history in in this country you know our our bicentennial was um you know 1976 uh the the constitution's been around since what 1787 it wasn't or 83 i didn't i don't have it in front of me but you know we we've we've had the 200th anniversary of the constitution even more recently hardly anybody knows what's in the constitution anymore you have the supreme court they don't judge on the basis of the constitution they make it up and of course you have leftists in particular constantly saying that the constitution guarantees a separation of church and state there's nothing in the constitution that said that that was thomas jefferson's private appeal to baptists to assure them that the founding of this nation would not involve the founding of a religion that would be binding on all of them including the baptists where they would have to renounce things and and that the government basically it was it was a reassurance that the government government would not intrude on the baptists faith practice and life whenever you're dealing with organizations there's always going to be a tendency to move away from their founding principles unless you go back and consciously hold them up to those founding documents and the same is true in the church you know in in the united states in the course of just over 200 years we've come to the point that the supreme court may be telling us uh this spring that there is no first amendment right to free exercise of religion i don't know if you saw the federal court just i think it was yesterday or day before ruled that there is no uh freedom of religion in terms of hiring for a funeral home wow uh that i don't know how i missed that yeah the a a man who worked for the funeral home decided he wanted to uh transition to being a woman they said well you can't work here anymore and uh the judge ruled that the religious freedoms restoration act um didn't apply because um it was not an undue burden on religion i mean what they've what done is they've reduced freedom of religion to a freedom to worship within the walls of church building but uh just as our country has abandoned the principles on which it was founded the early church uh faced the same temptations and you can see a steady eroding of those commitments over time um there were there were reform movements at various points uh there were reform movements long before luther uh you had before luther of course you had huss before hush you had whitcliffe you go back through uh the medieval period you had guys like gottschalk and berengar and others who opposed uh these these moves of rome further and further from the historic gospel uh there were people like the valdenses or valdensians as you know become called by both names uh roman catholicism tries to present a picture of itself as popping up monolithic and it didn't you go through the early church you don't find popes you don't find uh you find you don't find the claims of the papacy in terms of the uh the infallibility of the pope you have uh pope vagilius being excommunicated by um the council of constantinople you have a subsequent council at constantinople that that declares um pope honorius a heretic in fact uh for two centuries the oath that was taken by every bishop of rome denounced the heretic uh honorius but most catholics don't realize how that you have this sort of steady drift over the centuries but it was at the council of trent that much of this stuff became uh cemented into roman catholicism and it's continued to move even further away um you know things like uh the the bodily assumption of mary was not dogma until 1950 uh the the the um the immaculate conception of mary that not only was jesus born without sin but so was mary was an official dogma until 1854 one of the things we show in the video is that in his proclamation of this um dogma uh pope pius shows a a horrible ignorance of scripture he's saying that mary is the one that crushed the serpent's head well that's a bad translation in the old vulgate the modern vulgate actually correctly renders the hebrew that it's the seed of the woman that bruises the head of the serpent not the woman right in fact you you will find uh on many statues of mary that roman catholics venerate uh you will see the serpent beneath her feet yeah i i alluded earlier to some of the confusion uh over france society i've meant to flesh that out a little bit um i don't know if you're aware but there's literally dozens of catholic theologians who have signed a petition to make a filial correction of the pope and they accuse him of six uh specific charges of teaching wow could you could you go through all six or as long as many as time will allow when we come back from our final break which we are going to now i can give you a little bit better overview of it yeah okay uh we are going to our final break and we do have some of you still waiting to have your questions asked and we will get to you as soon as possible uh our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:23:46

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away god willing we will be right back after these messages from our sponsors hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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01:25:34

that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio hi i'm buzz taylor frequent co -host with chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio i would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service todd and patty specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time that means you can get to the good stuff faster it also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors their website is cvbbs .com

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cumberland valley bible book service that you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio and we are back to our final 25 minutes or so of our discussion today with jason wallace pastor of christ presbyterian church of magna utah and producer of lds .video

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we are discussing is the pope catholic a once thought of uh a question that was once thought of as a rhetorical question and a comical question spoken in jest which has actually become a real question that is being posed by not only bible believing christians but even roman catholics of the conservative and traditionalist bent and if you want to join us on the air now is the time to do so or forever hold your peace as we are running out of time rapidly our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com and i'm going to read a question to you by ted in tuscaloosa alabama that is going back to the sean mccraney issue uh but then we have to quickly move into the main subject at hand uh i just wanted to make sure that we didn't interrupt a thread here too much with a a question on a different topic ted says i saw your appearance on sean mccraney's tv show in which you were cornered by his daughter at the end of the program as she got in your face and sternly lectured you on your hesitation to declare that you loved a certain audience member who had also asked you a question i was bowled over by how poised you were in that situation you comported yourself very winsomely as we were formed so love to say these days i was imagining somebody like a tim bailey thundering silence woman in response to her most undifferential feminine manner or tony instructed her to excuse the quiet spirit of god has given you which generally goes over like a lead balloon i'm wondering if you could share with the audience your take on that experience and if you had any advice for those of us who find our encounters in the marketplace becoming increasingly contentious as this encounter clearly was for you and by the way i just want to make it clear that was my listeners comments about the two people he mentioned not mine but anyway if you could uh pastor jason respond to his question quickly and then let's move on to our main subject here sure um basically i think it was a setup question i mean i i'm not quick on my feet i'm uh you're the guy who wrote in from tuscaloosa alabama i'm from statesboro georgia i'm a southern boy so i speak slowly which sometimes keeps my foot out of my mouth uh but uh sean mccraney's daughter well one of sean mccraney's followers got up and said who here loves me and of course love means a whole host of different things i didn't raise my hand and but he quickly jumped in my face and it's like why didn't you raise your hand and i said i really don't know you uh well that's not you know that that was an excuse for them to jump on me and uh his daughter got very angry with me that i wasn't didn't express my love um does that mean i'm gonna i'm gonna try to treat even my enemies with love but you know when somebody says do you love me um i i wasn't clear on what he was understanding you know meant by that and everything else but um yeah it's a game these guys they talk about love all the time and yet they are the most uh vicious folks i've told some of their followers on facebook you know i'll take the the hatred of the mormons over your love uh because they they try to destroy anyone who challenges them even if they do it in the most respectful loving way um mccraney gets up there and just he becomes almost rabid in his hatred of pastors and his mocking of what he calls authority and you know he just he he mocks mocks mocks everyone who disagrees with him i mean i i had said that he was teaching grave error and he insisted that i wanted to burn him at the stake literally and it's like i said you taught error you know i never made any threats on your life i never said any of these things but at any rate um hopefully that clarifies a little bit thanks for the kind words um i appreciate them okay well let's move on to the main subject at hand because i want to get to as many of those six issues that you stated beforehand that a number of roman catholics have convened to challenge pope francis on certain issues six at least and if you could repeat what you were saying about that before the break yeah um well pope francis released amoris laetitia um the joy of love uh a statement that basically lays the groundwork for receiving uh civilly remarried couples back into the into catholic communion and um it was originally six i just looked it up apparently they've edited or they've amended it there's 40 different uh clergy and lay scholars who have who are attempting to make what's called a filial correction of the pope uh seven different charges of heresy essentially it's all related to um what they call uh marriage moral life and the reception of sacraments the they accuse him of being influenced by martin luther of all people and uh three bishops back on december 31st of last year declared amoris laetitia alien to the catholic faith well the the charges were serious enough that cardinal gearhart uh muller who was uh the prefect emeritus of the congregation of the doctrine of the faith which is basically the old inquisition he called for a theological disputation between the pope and his critics pope francis responded by removing muller from office so it's not going anywhere but this this was the first time anyone had tried to make a filial correction since the year 1333 um so you've got you've got a lot of difficulty you've got folks like bobson jenis who you we both know yeah he's a friend of mine even though i have radical disagreements with him in fact if anybody wants to hear my interview with bobson jenis on pope francis uh whom he has a lot of uh disagreement with uh and although he has to rein himself in and be respectful according to his own beliefs as a roman catholic he believes he does have the freedom to openly and publicly criticize him as long as it is with respect um and he did very uh strongly criticize pope francis and you could just type in s -u -n -g -e -n -i -s in the ironsherpensironradio .com

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search engine and you'll find that interview but anyway i'm sorry i interrupted you oh no problem uh it's making things very difficult for traditional roman catholics a lot of them have tried to rationalize that francis and even some of the the other uh more recent popes have all been anti -popes um you know such as uh during the time that the uh papacy moved to to avignon france and you had up to three different popes all competing and eventually they sorted it all out and the hope of a lot of traditional roman catholics is you know eventually they're going to go back to the roman catholicism of their grandparents well the problem for guys like um bobson jenis is that the the things that he wants to see changed the pope has now declared with magisterial authority they're they're irreformable well as far as the uh i know that bobson jenis does not defend latin mass or should i say uh exclusive latin you know like a like a protestant might be an exclusive psalmist uh he uh in fact was going to debate his friend jerry matatix who is now a sate of vacantist does not believe that there has been any valid pope in fact no valid priests ordained under the bishops of popes since vatican ii uh and he still believes that the office is a biblical one and a needed one but that it's vacant but uh bobson jenis i know he believes in uh the mass celebrated in the native tongue of whoever is celebrating it but but uh jerry matatix i know would be more in the in the area of rejecting everything of vatican ii that does not coincide with vatican one right and we've actually had both those gentlemen out here to debate james white in the past um as have i out out here and we're actually in new york yeah so um yeah i what we're trying to do i mean is basically show the issues that are currently disturbing people you know we open up that this is not your grandparents catholic church you know we pit statements from a hundred years ago to what's being said now and we're showing clips of uh of charismatic uh catholic worship and various other things and making the point this is not your grandparents catholic church um but when you go through the history of the church you find out this is not the church of the apostles either this is not the church of the first century or the second or the third or the fourth or the fifth and you keep going and yes there are elements you know there are people that they can go back and try to take things uh there were errors in the early church and they and some of them grew into what you see in roman catholicism today but there are also clear denunciations when when we talk about the universal consent of the fathers we find that not only was athanasius condemned by pope iberius but he taught numerous things that were condemned he would have been condemned by trent by not submitting to the pope um he would have been uh and i'm sorry um not by trent but rather by first vatican council he would be he was anathematized for his view of the papacy he denied the canonicity of the apocrypha along with jerome and hillary and gregory nasianzen and and number of other church uh not just church fathers but men who have been declared doctors of the church they denied these things uh athanasius taught that we truly partake of the body and blood of christ spiritually over a thousand years before calvin made the same argument basically athanasius was making that argument when you go deep in history you find out you know uh to play off of what newman said to be deep in history is to cease to be roman catholic because uh roman catholicism is a theological i mean is a historic novelty and it's not just uh it's not just francis before francis you had uh pope pius declaring the the that mary was was conceived immaculately you know this is not a conception of christ this is her conception she was considered uh and they can point to various statements in the history of the church but this is against the specific teaching of seven previous popes along with thomas aquinas and agustin and a host of others and so um to be deep in histories to recognize that uh tradition is a mixture of truth and error councils have contradicted one another what stands the word of god you go back through history it gets messy um a lot of folks don't realize that pope leo the 10th who excommunicated martin luther was the illegitimate grandson of pope innocent the 8th who innocent had made leo a cardinal at the age of 13 kind of an ironic name for pope innocent isn't but if i want to make sure though that before we run out of time you go into some of the specific things that is that pope francis is being challenged on from his fellow catholics well the gist of it is uh in terms of reception of uh civilly remarried people back into communion um this is this is seen as um a huge issue in fact for those of our listeners who aren't aware of this and you could correct me if i'm wrong but i'm almost certain having been a roman catholic myself for my childhood through my early teens uh a roman catholic who was divorced for any reason at all even if they were the innocent victim in a divorce they could not for the rest of their lives receive the mass i don't know if that's still correct i don't know if that was a dogmatic uh thing but that was certainly the practice that i was familiar with as a catholic i'm not all that clear i know that um people who have remarried um can outside of the church could never be received in but now they can't and you know it seems to be that pope francis is um indicating that there are more you know more changes to come i mean in terms of homosexuality he says who am i to judge and we would agree with him on that but that would be on any issue yeah um it's it's just it to me it's hilarious it's an odd statement for a pope to make yeah i well the one of the points i try to make in the video is you know whether the pope is calling for a crusade or or praying with muslims in a mosque you know whether he's burning protestants or um uh worship or worshiping with hindus whatever he does most catholics assume he is the vicar of christ he and uh it doesn't matter whether those things are consistent at all um our challenge is to go back to the scriptures go back to what is actually there uh in terms of things like um we don't have time to get into it today but just to point to it we when you go back through the early church's reading of matthew 16 you find uh the doctors of the church saying that this is not peter there are people who did identify the rock with peter but as an example of all believers nowhere do you find a pope in the early church nowhere do you find these claims on which the whole papacy rests and the idea what what you have in catholicism is much like what you have in mormonism you have a man who claims to speak for god catholicism is not a religion of a book the pope trumps the bible mormonism is not the religion of any book the bible the book of mormon or any of the other uh scriptures they have they have a living prophet who simply tells you what to do and to be a good mormon and to be a good catholic is to do what you're told um because they're putting themselves between you and god by the way let me just quickly interject that if anybody wants to order a book by my friend william webster titled the matthew 16 controversy peter and the rock go to christiantruth .com

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christiantruth .com and then you can click on store then click on books and scroll down to the matthew 16 controversy which are guests jason wallace just mentioned it is a patristic resource proving that the fathers did not view peter as a first pope yes his his writings have been very helpful to me as i've been trying to draw these things together the the what we're trying to do with the videos is to take a lot this information that's out there and make it more popularly available and putting it in a broader context and essentially pointing people to things like the work he's done and david king and other guys like this we do have a question uh from bb in cumberland county pennsylvania she wants to know uh i'm assuming that you would actually agree with pope francis that people who have been married and remarried after divorce are welcome to the lord's table and even church membership the issue is that the roman catholic church has not historically taught that and that pope francis is militating against the historically held position by his own church and i am not in here inferring that you agree with pope francis on a host of other issues and that he is far to the left of you and even believes in things that both rome and geneva would deem to be apostate teachings yes but but but i don't she was i think wise and having you clarify because people might be thinking that you agree with these catholics protesting francis's view about being welcomed back into the church after divorce and remarriage no no not at all the to some extent um the the main thrust of this video is to try to open people's eyes to the historic issues but then bring them to the bible and show them how uh rome is not just the pope who's not catholic but neither is the faith that rome preaches uh as the jews had uh basically defaced the the word of god through their traditions in the old testament um you know you see jesus condemning the pharisees for teaching uh the doctrine or the teachings and commandments of men they had they had added all these various things after the old testament and there were temptations of course during that as well rome has done the same thing and we deal with things like um the use of images most people see this as a peripheral issue i think the reformers understood it far more clearly images allow us to uh feel emotions because they seem to make god closer they seem to make him more imminent but when we're confronted by the god of the bible for who he really is in the pages of scripture we understand the heavens of heavens can't contain him we understand why isaiah cries out woe is me for i am undone for i'm a man of unclean lips and i dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips rome has inserted mary and the saints and the church and the sacraments and all these things between you and christ and like the images in the old testament they don't bring you closer to god they actually serve to keep you from god and for sinners that's a great temptation because apart from the grace of god we don't want to come into the light we don't want to see the darkness in ourselves we want to hide in the shadows we want to offer the the kind of sacrifice cain did where we you know we're we're offering worship to god but on our terms and we don't want to deal with our sins protestantism deals with the glory of god the the horror of our sins and presents a gospel far greater far more glorious than anything that rome ever could dream of presenting rome can make you feel good statues paintings incense uh the the music all these things can make us feel it feels more religious it feels like i've had catholics say to me when they have worship services at the churches or the congregations where i've been a member i remember one in particular a friend of mine who passed away from lung cancer even though he never smoked a day in his life he was a roman catholic a dear friend of mine john capillus his wife when he uh and uh when john and his wife visited the congregation where i used to belong to in new york she said to him i'm never going back there again or to any protestant church it's not a religion and they they they view the rites and the ceremony as such a requirement for it to be real worship if you follow what i'm saying unless i'm just babbling here no no i follow exactly i mean because this was the temptation of the jews what did you have in the synagogue you didn't have images you didn't have smells and bells what you had was the word of god what you had was the singing of psalms you had prayer you had uh a spiritual worship that israel really didn't like israel wanted images israel wanted uh intermediaries they wanted to bail them you know most people don't understand it was not uh israel didn't typically see a mutual exclusive nature to jehovah and bail they worship them all and they would see bail and these others often as lesser gods that they could that were more approachable and i would argue that they're putting them much in the same place that mary and the saints are there there's these uh they're part of the um council of the gods so to speak with you know the great god but they don't want to go directly to jesus they want to go through mary because mary seems more approachable uh jesus says come unto me all you who labor and are heavy laden i will give you rest mormons um i don't know if we uh do we have a couple minutes for we just have a couple because we're running out of time and we still look i'll make it real short we we did a dialogue with mormon students at their institute of religion at the university of utah the the evangelical campus ministries wanted nothing to do with it uh but but then they got a new guy they brought when they brought him in he reached out to them they came and they took over because they didn't want to talk about what the bible said anymore so much they wanted to focus on emotion they thought that mormon worship was boring and this and that and the other and that they could that through their lively worship that this would would win them over to jesus well the funny thing is mormon um they had two students get their testimony and this evangelical student gives a sort of rambling testimony but then the mormon girl gets up there and within 30 seconds she's crying her eyes out gushing how much she loves jesus and the evangelical students are sitting there with their mouth hanging open because their conception was um what makes you feel good people can generate feelings over all kinds of things and yeah it's easier in a mormon church i mean to be in a catholic church than in a mormon ward uh i think but but mormons are pretty good at it too in their own way and this is not the test that the bible gives us the bible calls us to spiritual worship to to worship in spirit and in truth and god is really really clear that images are blasphemy to him by the way i think that uh we should try to get a couple of our listener questions in before we run out we have harrison in mechanicsburg pennsylvania who says isn't this information about pope francis militating against historic catholicism and even against biblical christianity an excellent resource or proof to our roman catholic friends that their claim to have an infallible interpreter and the only safe guide to understanding the bible and christianity accurately is a farce they will continually say that sola scriptura which they will claim is nowhere in the bible leads to anarchy and chaos and yet here they have a pope that doesn't even agree with the catholic church let alone historic christianity yeah i wasn't following um one thing he said in there so we don't have time to flesh it out but yes in terms of militating against it one of the things we do is we show the chaos within the catholic church what what unity do they have other than that they give lip service to the pope but they don't even follow the pope they don't even submit to uh him in terms of the proclamations that have been made and so you have the same chaos you have the charismatic worship you have the latin mass worship you have um all kinds of syncretism you have all kinds of of insanity you have you have faculty members in roman catholic universities and institutions of higher learning teaching all kinds of leftist and apostate things and they are not being disciplined or sanctioned at all uh funny that the head of the frame the head of the jesuits wouldn't do that right i'm sorry yes i mean liberation theology has i mean this is about as christian as christian science i mean it's it's uh these guys have just baptized marxism there's nothing remotely christian about it and uh the the way that papal encyclicals and speeches and statements can be reinterpreted by catholics to make uh their church sound orthodox whether they are on the far right or the far left or anything in between shows you that that so -called infallible interpreter means nothing because you need an infallible interpreter for the infallible interpreter you get you always have this spin going on with especially with conservative catholics saying that the pope didn't really mean that you know you mean the conservative catholics like uh nancy pelosi no i'm not referring to her like anthony kennedy yeah i'm more referring to uh i'm playing with you i know i'm like they're like catholic answers well then you get joe biden who has performed a homosexual wedding wow i didn't know that well watch the video and he's a professing catholic right and we've gotten but he's a member in good standing so is galia who would be someone that you and i would appreciate more right but they want to talk about the chaos in protestantism number one much of what is not catholic is not protestant it's not remotely protestant much of pentecostal ism doesn't make any identity with the historic catholic church they for many of them i mean thankfully there are many that are biblically sound but for for a lot of them they have more of a restorationist view that that there was a great apostasy and then with azusa street in what 1906 then you had the holy spirit brought back well um restorationists they don't that's not that's not protestantism it may not be catholicism but it's not it's not the protestant uh goal of trying to go back to true catholicism that god has preserved his church that the gates of hell have not prevailed against it and that when you go back through history you find it's messy yeah we're out of time brother i'm sorry to cut you off uh i know that your website for christ presbyterian church in magna utah is gospel utah .org

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gospel utah .org i know that your website for the documentary videos is lds .video