Revisiting the Ice Age with Carla Estell

And if you have if you have questions for Carla that come up during the presentation, you can put them in the chat here on Zoom or also in the comments on Facebook if you're following along there. And we'll ask her the questions at the end during the Q &A time.

So are we ready, Robin?

I it is does not seem to be going. I don't see it on. I don't see it on the page.

Did you and you made sure to share it to the page?

Yeah. And remember, the reason we had you doing it is because it never seemed to work for me.

Oh, it's it's working. It's there. Is it there? OK, good. OK, OK. So everybody gets to hear us, you know, in our little what are we doing? Well, yeah, OK.

We had we are OK.

Creation Fellowship Santee and the New Ice Age Theory

OK, let's get started. So I'm Terry Camerazzo here on behalf of Creation Fellowship Santee. And we're a group of friends that are bound by our common agreement that the book of Genesis is a true depiction of how God created the earth and all life in just six days.

A few thousand years ago, we've been meeting on Zoom here most Thursday night since June of 2020. And we've been blessed with presentations by pastors, teachers, missionary scientists, doctors, cartoonists and all around smarty pants people who love the Lord and have a message to share.

You can find most of our past videos by searching for Creation Fellowship Santee. That's S-A-N-T-E-E on YouTube. You can also find our new Rumble account by looking for CFS 2020. And we're also on BitChute now.

You can like and follow our Creation Fellowship Santee Facebook page. And you can sign up for our email list, which is just the upcoming speakers each week by emailing Creation Fellowship Santee at gmail dot com.

Tonight, we're blessed to have Carla Estelle presenting with us. She has a presentation called Revisiting the Ice Age. And Carla is a 1987 Liberty University graduate. She classroom taught for six years and homeschooled for 21.

In 1998, she and her husband, Brian, began a part time creation ministry called The Stone's True Story, which focuses on the truth of God's word. They and their six children have traveled through 48 states, visiting many geological sites, collecting fossils and sharing at camps, schools and churches.

In 2016, they relocated to Illinois, where Brian is a representative of Samaritan Ministries. And Carla continues to homeschool and teach science at the New Castle Homeschool Co-op. So with that, Carla, we're turning it over to you.

All right. So I share my screen, right?

Yes.

OK, and then my PowerPoint. All right. So just a minute slideshow from the beginning.

You have to share your screen and then click share again because we don't see your screen yet.

You don't see my screen?

No.

All right. Hold on just a minute. Now I have to figure out how to get out of my slideshow.

I think if you just hit your Windows key, you'll see.

OK, so share share computer sound.

Make sure that's off and also the optimizes.

Yeah, just just hit share and should be in blue down on the right.

Share. There we go.

All right. And we practice this already, but it's OK.

And then you're going to want to maximize. There you go. Yeah. Yeah.

And then from the beginning. There you go. We are all set. Yes. All right. Thank you. All right. So this first off, just to let you know up front that this is going to be a lot of new stuff and it's going to be like drinking from a fire hydrant because it's a lot of information.

But I'm asking the question, is some evidence of the global flood being misinterpreted as the ice age? Now, for 20 years, I've taught that the ice age followed the flood. This is a slide I put together for our kids program explaining how the flood caused an ice age.

And then this is a diorama I've made, it's part of our hands on portable museum, and it shows the dispersal of the nations after the Tower of Babel. And as you can see up in the corner, it includes the cave within the ice age time.

And then it even made it into our song. We have an 11 verse song that we do with the kids program. And although great ice sheets covered the north, that still were some folks ventured forth. They lived in caves, made their own tools, but that didn't make them anyone's fools.

They were human, fully human, surviving in a harsh frozen land. So I was well versed with the ice age, I could explain it very well why it happened and whatnot. But then we sold our home and started driving coast to coast, sharing at different schools, churches, camps, and talking with different people along the way.

And some of the different things that I saw along the way, I started questioning different aspects of the ice age. So that's what I want to share with you tonight. So one of the things we saw was going through Minnesota.

We had traveled quite a bit in the past. Each summer we usually took a trip, but this was my first time in Minnesota. And going through and seeing all the hills and the ponds that just dot the area there.

And as we were driving through this area, this is an aerial map at the museum that's right near the start of the Mississippi River. So you can see on here all the little hills and all the ponds that just cover this area of Minnesota.

But I was reminded of some miniature kettle ponds that we had seen a month earlier. Notice how steep the hill is, and then the pond there at the base. There's another one. And this is a whole area dotted with the hills and the ponds, just like Minnesota, except in miniature.

But these ponds are just 30 years old. This is at Mount St. Helens. And this is the area where the landslide came and filled the valley. And as the landslide was rushing in, it caused all of these little hills here, just from the energy of the dirt sliding through.

As you know, if you've ever watched in a river and the river is flowing very fast, there'll be lots of little waves, the energy waves. And that's what you see here. But where the ponds came from was all the ice that was carried with the dirt and then buried.

And when the ice later melted, you have the ponds. Now, here's another thing that they usually say is an ice age is when you have a boulder field like this field here, because the glaciers come along.

They're carrying all these rocks and boulders. And then when the glaciers melt, the boulders drop out and you're left with the boulder field. However, this is not from glacier. This is from a mud flow.

This is also at Mount St. Helens. And this is the back side, the south side of the volcano. While the volcano was erupting, all the snow and ice on the back side was melting and it was sliding off the volcano, rushing through this area, going 40 miles per hour.

It uprooted all the forest and it dropped these boulders in its path. There's my favorite one. But this was rounded and transported in just one day. Now, if a glacier, it takes hundreds of years to do the different things that a glacier can do.

With a mud flow, it happens very, very quickly. And the same mud flow that transported this boulder also came through and carved this canyon. You can see the boulder sitting there at the edge of the canyon.

So this canyon was made not by ice age, not by a glacier, but by a mud flow in one day. There you can see another view of it. So I got to thinking, couldn't other canyons have been carved by mud flows and not glaciers?

When you notice the rounded rock, that's the sign that usually they say is a glacier. When we've seen stuff like this up in Connecticut and Vermont, there's always a sign talking about a slow moving glacier coming through and carving the canyon.

Here's some other glacier grooves. But again, I got wondering, could this not have been rushing water that sculpted the earth instead of a slow moving glacier? Why do people assume that these, especially here, were made by a glacier?

It's because of their location. That's on Kelly Island, right in the middle of Lake Erie or at the edge of Lake Erie. But could not this channel have been carved by the draining of the sea after the flood?

The area was obviously covered by the sea. And this is what really surprised me, was all the coral that we found. Now, Kelly Island is just an island made of lime rock, layer upon layer upon layer of lime rock.

And here at the top surface of it, you find all of this coral embedded in the lime rock. So that got me wondering, how do you go from coral growth to glaciers? I asked myself and anyone else who would listen, what was coral doing in Ohio, Michigan, Upper New York?

We also found it. It's in Canada, but we've not been up there yet. So why is it growing so far north and when did it grow? Then we moved to Michigan. Now, after two and a half years of being on the road and living in the camper, our six children grew quite a bit.

The boys outgrew their bunks in the back of the camper. Our oldest son started saying, this isn't the camper, this is the cramper. So we started looking for a new home base and one opened up in Michigan.

It was a parsonage of a church. And so we still were full time, but we would go out on a loop and we'd have a home to come back to for a few months. Then we would go out on the loop again. So when we moved to Michigan, it was right near Christmas.

And we did not see the ground again until April. That was the first time I had ever experienced a true winter. And it got me wondering if the flood lasted for an entire year, wasn't there a winter during the flood?

And with that thought in the back of my head, we went and toured the upper peninsula of Michigan. And at one of the museums up there, I saw this relief map. And I stood there and stared at this relief map, I don't know for how long, wondering how in the world could glaciers have carved the Great Lakes?

Now, Lake Erie, yeah, it's a shallow lake. It looks like a glacier could come right through there and carve it out, except that it's kind of going in the wrong direction. But especially Lake Superior, look at the bottom of Lake Superior.

How in the world could a glacier have carved that? And then another interesting thing about the Great Lakes, especially, let's see, that Great Lake that's there by Michigan, not Lake Michigan, but the other side, and I can't remember the name of it.

But it actually has huge salt beds under the Great Lake. How in the world do you have salt beds and then a freshwater lake sitting on top of it? Then I got to thinking about what the bottom of that lake really looks like.

And to me, it looks like huge glaciers just sat there and sank into the mud. So I got wondering if it beached icebergs, could, I'm sorry, I said glaciers and I meant to say icebergs. I got wondering if beached icebergs could have formed the freshwater lake.

And as the water drained off, the icebergs were beached and the weight of the iceberg would have broke that surface lava, which is what you have there all along Lake Superior, especially you can see the layers of lava that been broken.

And then as the ice sank into that softer sediment that's beneath the lava, the displaced sediment would form hills up all around the lake, which is exactly what you see is little hills. And then when the icebergs melted, the runoff flowed to the sea, connecting all the lakes and carving shallow Lake Erie.

So anyway, it's just kind of a different idea, but there's a picture of it that's easier to see. So at the top, we see the waters of the flood and icebergs have formed. As the water's draining off, the iceberg just sits and sinks down into that soft sediment that forms up into the hills.

And then it melts and you have freshwater lake. And then I remember those kettle ponds in Minnesota. Could they also be from beached ice, just like those kettle ponds at Mount St. Helens? We know that Mount St. Helens formed from melted ice that was buried there in the sediment.

So the force of the water draining off the land and back into the sea also could easily have eroded through and relayed the sediment that was laid during the flood. So here you can see at the top picture, that's before the drain off happened.

The bottom picture is where the Canadian Shield is being lifted up and the sediment in the water is draining off. There you can see it again going from the north to the south. So a lot of people think that the Canadian Shield just never had very much sediment on it and that it was always high.

I personally believe that the Canadian Shield had just as much sediment as anywhere else, but when it was lifted up, the sediment rushed off. And if you look at this, here's a map of the Canadian Shield.

It is huge. And then here's a map showing where there's like double sediment. So this is the prairie areas. So as this Canadian Shield was lifted up, all the sediment went rushing off along with the water, forming this double sediment here where you see in red.

And what hemmed it in was the mountain ranges. So if the mountains were raised first, then the Canadian Shield, and then all the sediment was kind of trapped right there. And then if you notice where the Great Lakes are, they're sitting right at the edge where the Canadian Shield and the sediment meet.

So if there were a lot of ice that had been forming up there that rushed off with the water, that's where it would get lodged and that's where it would sit. But there's not just freshwater lakes right there.

They're all along the shield. So also in our travels, we saw a lot of fossil beds. I would search them out on the map. And if we were anywhere close, we would take a side trip and go see them. So this is one, Mammoth Hot Springs in South Dakota.

Notice here on this one how you have several layers of fossils. The deeper they dig, the more fossils they find. They say this area was a spring and the animals fell into the spring. They got trapped.

They got bogged. They died and they turned into fossils. Meanwhile, more and more animals kept falling into the spring. Here's Ash Fall Park. This is in Nebraska. And here it's kind of just one flat layer of fossils and they're covered with ash.

So the idea was more of the volcanic ash killed and suffocated the animals, buried them, and then they became fossils. But yet, in the seminars and teaching how are fossils made, we tell kids that to make fossil, you have to bury it quick and you have to bury it deep.

And you have to bury it in a lot of wet mud. Because the wet mud, the water will seep into the bone carrying the silica with it and turn the fossil into stone. And you have to bury it quick before it can rot away and deep before it can be scavenged.

But this area here, this is like right on the surface. Not buried very deeply or quickly at all. So how did fossils form here on the dry land? And then we went to Agate Fossil Bed. And this, they had a really unusual story here.

Here was more like comparing it to Africa, where you have a drought and the animals all gather around the watering hole and then the water dries up and the animals all die. So you have all these dead animals and then they turn into fossils.

But I don't know that fossils are forming in Africa around the dried up water holes. I do believe they're getting scavenged and rotting away. So that's not really the best explanation of how you can form these fossils, because to make a fossil, you have to bury it quick and deep in a lot of wet mud.

But then I also got to thinking, if the zebras and the camels and the mammoth and the hippo fossils that we find are from the Ice Age, where are the fossils of the mammals that died in the flood? And this is when things really started getting me wondering.

You know, the Bible talks about one great event that killed off the animals. Everything except for what was in the ark died. But yet, when you have the Ice Age, we've got two events. We've got the flood that killed a lot of things.

And then you've got the Ice Age that killed most of the mammals. And that started not making sense to me. And then I wondered, how did the Ice Age cause the extinction? Why didn't some just migrate and survive?

Why did only the African camels and hippos and rhinos and zebras survive the Ice Age, but any of those in North America died? And that really started not making sense, especially as I found out that we've got camel fossils up in Alaska and hippo fossils all over the place.

And zebras out there in Ash Falls, they had zebra fossils, but yet the horses we have in North America today are what the Spanish brought over to America. So how did all the zebras die off during the Ice Age with horses and everything else?

That was one thing that really bothered me and got me thinking. So I wondered if all these Ice Age fossils couldn't really just be from the flood. And I know that's a new thought, but if you think about Mount St. Helens, 30 years after the mountain erupted and after the logs were, or trees were washed in the Spirit Lake, we still have a huge floating log mat.

I took this picture during a helicopter ride over the lake. Now it's been 40 years. I'm anxious to see what the size of this log mat still is, but this was at the 30-year point. So if there were still this many logs floating on Spirit Lake 30 years later, just imagine how many logs and dead animals were floating on the flood waters.

The other thing to notice about these logs is how they're all grouped together. And as the wind blows, they blow about on the lake. So this huge mat just kind of drifts around on the lake. So imagine the volume of floating vegetation and carcasses there would have been upon the waters of the flood.

And that's something that really doesn't get talked about very often. But if you think about it, the dead animals float. But what if things were buried where they were carried and not where they lived or grew?

This is a tree that grew at the base of Mount St. Helens. It would have rode the landslide. I don't remember this for sure, but I think we're at least 10 miles away from the volcano at this point. So this tree rode the landslide to this area.

And this is where it was stuck, where it stopped and where it was buried. But definitely it's not where it grew. And I'm wondering the same thing with the fossils. If it's where we find them isn't where they lived, it's just where they sank.

And then there's the tar pits in Los Angeles. When I read this one, I haven't been able to go and visit this area yet, but just reading about it, it's like this would be so amazing to go and see. So I'm going to read this.

The major pits average around 15 feet in diameter and they taper down to a cone. Now right there is kind of weird. What makes them taper into a cone? But then the bones are found entangled masses packed tightly together, dismembered and interlocking with the majority that were damaged in some fashion.

What packed these animals into these tar pits? Pit 36 had an opening of four feet by two feet. It's only 11 feet deep, yet it contains six, six carnivore fossils. How in the world do you squish six fossils into that small of a space?

Now I do believe it's something along the line of the animals coming along and getting trapped in the tar, but I can't say that for sure. I've not been there to read the signs, but tar wouldn't squish everything together.

You would just kind of float down into it. But what if, what if these were things that were floating on the water? And when the uplift started to happen, and when the mountains were starting to be lifted, the mountains would stop and break the currents, just like when you have a stream and you put a big rock in the stream, it forms little ebbies behind this rock.

What if there were whirlpools that were formed that actually sucked down these animals and buried them into the sediment? That would be how they could be compressed all together, entangled all together, and just suck down into the sediment.

And then when their bodies rotted, you make your tar. So was it an ice age or was it just winter during the flood? Now, many people say that the floodwaters were way too warm to freeze, and so they would have remained water.

And that's true if the continents were on huge sliding plates that were sliding all over the place, producing frictional heat and having new ocean bottom rising up and the volcanoes were erupting. But what if, this is going to be a really big what if, but just follow along, what if the pre-flood world had that canopy of water, huge land masses with lush vegetation, and a small shallow sea?

And notice the granite that's underneath it all. So the magma is down below the granite, and then you have huge fountains of the deep that's embedded in the land there. So you don't have anything like you have today with a huge sea and small land masses.

It's just the opposite. Small sea, huge land. With more land, that means there's plenty of room for more vegetation that would later become coal. And then the magma is down beneath all this creation rock granite.

So God broke the fountains, and he opened the windows, and the flood began, and we had 40 days of water, but not lava. The rushing water pulverized the land and turned the land into sediment. So the continents, the land was totally gone as it was pulverized into sediment.

We can see that at Mount St. Helens with the breached crater wall. This huge canyon was carved in just one day as the snow melted quickly there in the crater and went rushing over the top of the crater and carving this canyon.

So fast flowing water can quickly grind rock into sediment. Now the spinning earth would have created globe circling currents and this fast flowing water would then sort all this new sediment into the layers.

Now, when you look at the early flood literature, they never mention, they mention tides all the time, but they don't mention currents. And I wondered about that because it seems like you should have the currents are so obvious today that you would have all those currents as well during the flood.

But imagine if the continents were gone, those currents would be just circling the globe very quickly. But I wondered, why doesn't early flood literature, why does it only talk about tides? So doing a little bit of research, I found out that Matthew Murray, I knew he was the one who discovered the currents, but he made his discovery in the 1800s.

So that early flood materials, they did not know about currents at the time. It was Matthew Murray that discovered the Gulf Stream and discovered the different currents on the world. So here we would be back during the flood.

You'd have on the top of the flood waters, all this floating vegetation and carcasses and some animals that are still swimming. In the flood water, you would have all the sharks swimming about and feasting on these carcasses.

And you know, the interesting thing is all the places you can find sharks teeth all over the place. But then you'd have the buried vegetation and the animals. And buried in the layers were the animals that had days before roamed the earth, not indicating where they had lived, but where they had been carried and buried.

So remember back at Mount St. Helens, where the mountain became brand new dirt and things were buried where they were carried, but not where they had previously lived. Now the currents that would be circling the globe, they would be much stronger at the equator, and slower at the poles, because at the equator, the earth is traveling at 1000 miles per hour.

But at the poles, it's going much slower than that. So all this floating carcasses and vegetation, they would have congregated towards the poles. And then when the floating material was beached on the land as the land was raised, the vegetation and the flesh would decompose.

And that's where you would get your rich soil, your muck, your tar, and the bones would be preserved. A lot of the bones would decompose as well. And that was another thing. Living here in Illinois and living in Michigan, you've got such rich black dirt soil.

But I grew up in Florida and we spent a lot of time in Georgia. And you don't have it there. Down south, you've got sand and you have clay, but you don't have the rich soil. But that would have come from all the animals and floating trees and debris that was up north that then rotted.

Now let's talk about that coral for just a minute. The coral that you can find up in Michigan and up in Canada and up in New York. Coral will quickly grow if there's a good food supply carried by a current.

So if you've got the current going around and all those decomposing animals would make a very good food supply. Coral would have thrived from pole to pole. If after the 40 days, yet before the plates all broke and started rising, the earth was encased by a warm, shallow, current-driven sea.

So during the flood is where that coral would have grown or when that coral would have grown. Now sometime after the 40 days, the earth's crust broke. Again, this would have been an act of God. And the broken plates moved vertically, not horizontally slamming into each other and making mountains, but just vertically lifting up and the sea lifting down.

And the water would drain off the land and back into the sea, which is what Psalms 104 seems to indicate. That God raised the land, lowered the sea, and the water drained back into the sea and that's where it has stayed.

So as the water drained into the deepening sea, that's where the secondary flood layers would come. Because as this water is draining off, it would be picking up all this mud, eroding it at some places, relaying it at other places.

And that's also why you'd find so many broken fossils, because as it's being uplifted, I mean, eroded and relayed, the fossils would be breaking. And it's at this point that we have the lava. So the broken plates would have released the magma and then you would have your different volcanoes going off.

So where we have our mountain ranges that simply were God raised it higher and the seas were raised lower, or sunk, sorry. And as you look at a map, that's like exactly what we see. The sea plates sank and the continents rose.

You know, when they first came up with the ideas about all the sliding plates and whatnot, that was back when they thought the ocean floor was flat. But now they know there's as many mountain ranges on the ocean floor as there is on the land.

And even the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, that wasn't discovered until 1850. Murray, I just forgot his name, Matthew Murray, he's the one who discovered that as well. So just think, 100 years ago, scientists thought the ocean floor was flat.

Right, but we know now that it's not. So with the rising plates, that would produce minimal frictional heat. And the erupting volcanoes, that would just produce local heat. So it was the sun that kept the waters warm.

And when you block the sun, there goes the heat. So with a year-long flood, both poles would experience winter. So I ask again, was there really an ice age or was it just winter during the flood? Was there really an ice age or has the ice just been building ever since the flood?

I'm sure you all are aware of the World War II planes that were found in Greenland under 260 feet of ice. So in a little less than 50 years, 260 feet of ice accumulated on top of these World War II planes.

That's an average of about five feet every year. So given that, we could easily build up to the snow and the ice and the glaciers that we have today, just from the time of the flood. But it doesn't mean it had to build up and then melt back and then be building up again.

Now, here's another interesting thing. This is an early map. And this map predates Columbus. And this map is accurate. Look at the continent there of Antarctica. It's an accurate shoreline. But it's a shoreline that's today cut under the ice sheets and you can't see it.

But they know from radar or sonar what the shore looks like. And comparing it to these maps, they made accurate maps. Now, Solomon talks about sending fleets of ships and exploring the world. So right after the flood, and as people were scattering at the Tower of Babel and as different people were setting out to explore this world, Antarctica was ice free.

And slowly since the flood then, the ice has been building. Now, is there any biblical reason to believe in an ice age? A lot of people use the book of Job that talks about snow and ice and say, see, Job lived near the ice age.

But Job could easily be talking about winter when you have snow and ice. But the main reason that I'm really leaning away from the ice age today, actually, there's two reasons. One, biblically, is God promised Noah that their winter and summer and spring and fall harvest and planting, it would be a cycle.

And it would be a continuous cycle. And then also, but today the ice age is being used to promote a lot of fear, a lot of fear of climate change. And believing in lots of different ice ages. And look at all the extinctions that were caused in these previous ice ages.

And, oh no, we better be careful or we're going to cause a lot of extinctions again in the future if we don't control the climate. And on and on the fear goes. But the Bible talks about one extinction.

And that was everything that lived on the land that was not in the ark and it died. And I really don't see how the ice age extinction, it seems to take away from the flood extinction. The ice age is a step in the evolutionary ladder.

And it's used today to promote evolutionary thought. We don't believe in the age of the dinosaurs when there was a distinct set of animals that were dinosaurs. We know that the dinosaurs were created by God on day six.

They roamed and lived with man. They died during the flood, except for the ones saved on the ark. So why do we believe in a distinct group of animals that are ice age animals? Now, with evolutionary science, they don't have a global flood.

That's the whole point is trying to prove there was not a flood. So they have to have some other type of carving agent. So they use ice. Evolutionary science does not have flowing water to move the silt.

So they use wind to move the silt. But flowing water does a far better job. We may be overlooking some of the best flood evidences by attributing them to an ice age. Are we actually throwing away evidence of the global flood by misinterpreting it as ice age?

Are we missing the boat? The next generation needs the truth. This is back at Ash Falls. This is the one place for, it was at least 10 years. I had this on my list of a place I wanted to go, but we were never quite close enough to stop.

Until finally, on this one trip, we were close enough and we stopped at Ash Falls. But when I got there, it was more evolutionary than almost any other park we had been to. Not just in promoting evolution, but actually mocking creation.

The bookstore was full of books that just mocked creation and using the ice age. And so that was kind of the clincher for me. It's just to make sure that we're not letting the world dismiss the fact of the flood by just saying, oh, the ice age did all this.

All right. So that is pretty much the presentation. I hope I did not go too quickly through all that. So, but what now? Do I stop sharing the screen?

Well, you caught me a little bit off guard. I wasn't quite ready for it.

And I was scrambling to get together here.

Oh, okay. I might have gone a little fast.

If anybody has any questions, you can post them into the chat. And also, if you're watching on Facebook, you can put them in the comments there.

So that was really good, Carla. Except if in the chat, we got into discussion with Matthew on the La Brea Tar Pits. I was going to say La Tara Brea Pits, but La Brea Tar Pits. Can you tie that together for us?

What you were saying? What you think happened there?

Yeah, should I back up to it?

You can do that or you can just explain what you think happened in greater detail.

Okay. I don't know if I could really go greater detail. But the main thing is with the tar pits, the fossils all being squished all tightly together. How is that really scientifically feasible for an animal to fall into a tar pit and get squished together with the other animals, compacted?

And it's not like just the whole area is one, an animal here, an animal there, an animal over here. But they're all entangled down into this tight little cone. Do you see what I'm saying?

So you think they swept in. Like, you are the first person to tread into that territory of floating bodies.

Say that one more time.

You're the first person to tread into the area of floating bodies.

I know.

Which is frustrating.

Yeah. Because it makes so much sense that, I mean, elephants are like one of the best swimmers. So for an elephant to swim, and oftentimes when they find baby elephants up on the trunk, not the trunk, the tusk.

The tusk of other animals, of other elephants. And you wouldn't find that if they were out on the land. But if they're swimming in the water and the baby gets tired, you could see the mama just scoops them up and carries them for a while.