May 30, 2024 Show with Kyle Hesser on “Integrating Faith with Professional Life”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 30th day of May, 2024.

Before I introduce my guest and our topic for the day, I have a very important reminder for all men in ministry leadership listening, if you are able to get to Perry County, Pennsylvania next week, on Thursday, June the 6th, to be exact, that is the date and location of the next free, biannual

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon, which will be held from 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at the Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania.

This free Pastor's Luncheon, for the very first time, is going to feature our guest speaker,

Dr. Joel Beakey, the founder and chancellor of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Dr. Beakey is a prolific author, a highly sought -after conference speaker, and a dear friend of mine dating back to the 1990s, even before Dr.

Beakey was well -known, especially in Reform circles. I knew him when his audience was very small outside of his denomination, and I am honored with the privilege of counting him among my friends for so many years.

If you would like to attend this luncheon, which is not only free to register for, and not only will you eat for free, but every single man in attendance is going to leave that event with a heavy sack, maybe even two heavy sacks, of free, brand -new books, personally selected by me, and donated by generous

Christian publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom. All absolutely free, and you can't beat that.

That is worth flying to Perry County, Pennsylvania, if you live out of state, or taking a very long drive, because we are talking about each person getting approximately two dozen books apiece.

All excellent books, all brand -new. So, if you'd like to register, if you are a man in ministry leadership, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and put

Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. But I am delighted today to have a first -time guest by the name of Kyle Hessler.

He is the visionary behind the works -based conferences, and today we're going to be addressing integrating faith with professional life.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Kyle Hessler.

Chris, it's a pleasure to be here. I'm so glad to come on Iron Trip and Zion Radio and just chat with you.

Great, me too. Well, before we get into our discussion of the conference and so on, we have a tradition here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which they were raised, and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them. And I'd love to hear your story.

Yeah, I'd be happy to share it, if only, and most importantly, to give glory and honor to God.

So I was born, actually, overseas in Germany. My mom and dad were actually never together, never married.

My father was in the Air Force Reserves, and my mom was teaching overseas. And so, through their relationship, my mom conceived and had me, and I was born in Germany.

We lived there for about three years. I was actually baptized over there in the Catholic Church. Where in Germany?

Oh, Baumholder. Okay, how close is that to Frankfurt? Pretty close.

I think that's the city we flew out of. Oh, wow. So I think it's within, yeah, it's pretty close.

If you're ever visiting the place of your birth, I have developed a friendship with Pastor Tobias Riemenschneider, who is the pastor of the

Evangelical Reform Baptist Church of Frankfurt, and he is also the co -author of the

Frankfurt Declaration, and he's an author. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so he's a great guy.

And he was just recently on my program for the third time, and we're looking forward to many frequent returns from him.

I just thought I'd throw that out there, and that is very providential that you apparently were born very close to Frankfurt.

Pretty close, but yeah, I'd love to get back there one day, just to even see where Luther preached and all that different stuff.

So yeah, I was born over there. I was baptized in the Catholic Church, raised by a single mom, did not have the best upbringings.

My mom did the best she could, but like most single moms, she just couldn't provide every need a child would have.

And so while I always kind of functioned as a Christian, we just never had a strong connection to our local church or body of believers.

And I did the full nine yards of Catholicism. I went to Catholic school. I went to Mass as much as you could.

So did I. I was an altar boy and everything. So the only two things

I did not do was I was never altar boy, and then providentially, which is kind of funny, I never did confirmation.

And I think that's kind of funny, given where my life went afterwards. So throughout my youth,

I participated in various combat sports. I guess

I should say, when we left Germany, we moved to Minneapolis, Minnesota. And so that's where I spent most of my young life.

And while living there, I participated in various sports and was particularly drawn to things like wrestling and karate and basically martial arts.

And so when I got into my later years, when I lived there about 17, 18,

I started working weekend jobs that took me away from church. And so my mom didn't throw a big fit about it.

She wanted me to have a good job. So I stopped going to Mass. And again, kind of still thinking and functioning as a

Christian, was praying, but just not really studying the deeper things, not really studying my

Bible, not really reading my Bible even. And through the martial arts world,

I got connected with a gentleman named Stephen who became somewhat of a mentor beyond just a coach.

But he was the first – I describe him as he was probably the first real Christian I met. And that's maybe not fair to some brothers and sisters in Christ, but he was the first guy that I think kind of put his money where his mouth is when it came to the walk with the

Lord. And we just kind of hit it off. But through my relationship with him, two important things happened.

One, he started discipling me, which is important. And then also him and me moved to Texas together.

He got a job training some guys that were in the UFC, one of which went on to become welterweight champion of the world at one point.

So I went with him. So I trained with a guy named Johnny Hendricks and Jared Roshalt and Jake Roshalt, these guys who – not necessarily legends of the sport, but were prominent in the mid to late 2000s.

And anyway, so we – while training, I basically came to know the

Lord in a more robust way. And I have some apprehensions with how I describe this just because,

I mean, I do remember praying vividly. But maybe not quite understanding what was going on while I was a child or as a teenager.

But regardless, coming to Texas is probably the most important thing for my walk with the

Lord because I got plugged into churches that were serious about scripture studies, that were serious about their faith, were serious about discipleship.

And so when I moved here, I actually started going to one of Matt Chandler's churches in the Dallas -Fort

Worth area. And at the time, I think that was a really good move. That was a really solid place for me to be. And then

I left that church just for – no real problems. There wasn't any issues there.

But I started to go into like a – more of like a seeker -sensitive church for a little bit. A great place to be for me at the time.

The Lord was very kind to me at that church and really grew me and fostered me.

And while that church was not maybe the strongest in terms of doctrine or anything like that, it was a faithful place to be.

And while there, I started reading more on my own in terms of – I started getting introduced to the reformers and B .B.

Warfield. Some – let's see. Who else was I reading at that time? But I was reading a variety of serious theologians from the 20th century and beyond or earlier,

I should say. And so eventually met my wife, Jenny, and we've been married for almost 10 years.

So when we met, I was kind of firmly becoming a Presbyterian. And through that story – or through that, we explored a few different churches and ultimately settled on a very sweet non -denominational church that was great for us in our early part of our marriage.

And then when COVID happened, some things broke where it was –

I think it was pretty appropriate that we just decided it was probably best for us to leave. And we ended up finding a church in Fort Worth called

All Saints Presbyterian Church, which is part of the CREC, the Community of Reformed Evangelical Churches.

And we've been, I think, pretty good members there for the last four years. And just God has been so kind to us and our family in the last four years.

Not only have we had two wonderful children, my first son,

Theoden, and my second son, who was just born a few months ago, Stonewall, but also just the community that we're in.

I've never felt more at home at this church. But the reason I tell the kind of more full story beyond just where I kind of got to that point where I was saved,

I usually tell it in this way because our life is not limited to, how did you get saved?

It's so much more than that because it's not just our story. It's the Lord's story. Amen. And so that's pretty much my story, as close to a nutshell as I can do.

Well, I have a strong suspicion, since one of your sons' name is Stonewall, that you refer to the 19th century war between the states as the

War of Northern Aggression. So it's funny because I'm a southerner by transport.

But no, actually, I have interesting thoughts that I would love to share on the Civil War because I think people in my circles tend to think, and in the

South tend to think, Evil North or Lincoln, Federalist, and clearly there's some issues there.

But to be honest, gosh, the reason we named our son Stonewall was my wife was the one who was like, did you know

Stonewall Jackson was a Presbyterian and he was friends with B .B. Warfield? And I really like B .B.

Warfield. I never knew that. So I was like, well, that's pretty cool. And then my wife suggested, what do you name our next son,

Stonewall? I don't know. But I read enough biographies of the man and got a better sense of how

Virginia felt about the war to really just kind of reexamine it. And so my thought was really when you look at the

Fifth Commandment, I don't think it's a limited – the Fifth Commandment is not limited in so much as to just your direct families.

I think it's to your descendants. And Stonewall Jackson seems like a guy that needs to be honored.

He was a very noble man. I think he was a very righteous man and certainly had his flaws.

But given that he is – you can't find people in the modern world to say a nice word about the man.

He was an exemplary man. And so we felt really just called to it. It's kind of funny. We made my

British pastor baptize him, which was kind of funny. He enjoyed that. But, no, it's – yeah, it's – we just – we believe in honoring those forefathers in the faith.

Well, since you are a devotee of B .B. Warfield, let me strongly urge you and recommend to you a book written by a dear friend of mine for many years,

Fred G. Zaspel. He has written The Theology of B .B.

Warfield, A Systematic Summary, a hardcover book. And that is available through Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. Excellent book. Yeah, thank you. Well, we are going to be addressing today, as I've already mentioned, the works -based conferences.

And there are many – there may be many Calvinists listening who are starting to have palpitations and maybe even going into coronary arrest because they wrongly assume that we are using that term in a salvific sense theologically.

So, obviously, we are grace -based folks, but you are speaking of the vocation, the profession, the labor that Christians are involved in by that term, works -based, and that faith, if we are true

Christians, should be incorporated into whatever profession or calling we have in our lives.

Why don't you tell us about, first of all, how this subject, to begin with, pressed upon your heart and mind so much that you would seek to develop conferences that focus on this?

Love to do that. Real quick, I'd just like to add my caveats to what you previously said. So the works -based conference, the name, first off, one of our taglines we say is, we're not saved by good works, we're saved by Christ for good works.

Amen. Unto good works. Yep. And that's James 2 .17, thus all faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Amen. So that's clearly a faith that's given to you, was not your own doing.

But just to make it a little bit more clear what we're trying to do with that name is, one, it is a little tongue -in -cheek in the sense of we know what we're saying.

But the idea was really, really as simple as this.

There's a common phrase on the internet called based, which is basically you say that in referring to somebody that's either very conservative or is basically debasing themselves or is not debasing themselves.

So a father raising their children, that's a based thing to do. And it's not a term that I really use on my own.

I've used it once on social media. But it is a common parlance right now to say that.

So we thought that that would be kind of funny. But also we do want this conference to be discussing work, vocation, and dominion.

So that's just my little caveat to it. But I think most well -thought Christians will realize that we're not talking about earning salvation through work.

So I appreciate your caveat. I just thought I'd give my caveat as the— And of course, in a theological sense, our salvation is indeed based on works.

But the works of Christ is perfect obedience and his sacrifice on Calvary. Yes, amen.

And then, yeah, so that's—yes and amen.

So you asked why we wanted to do this. So a little background. I have been involved professionally in sales for well over a decade at a variety of companies.

And I've always just enjoyed networking and the sales process, and I work for a manufacturer.

So although I don't get my hands dirty, I do see a lot of blue -collar labor and stuff like that.

And I've just always admired hardworking people. And so that was kind of the genesis of, like, the thinking of some of this stuff.

But I'm also involved in some entrepreneurial endeavors, including some real estate and some other things like that.

But specifically what kind of helped get this going was four years ago, kind of more as a hobby, but it was run as a business.

I did start promoting for wrestling shows, which has a lot of interesting stories and a lot of grace and mercy that God has provided.

I'd love to share some other day. But the immediate thing that was important from doing that for four years was it taught me a very specific skill set in regards to running events, managing events, things like that, which is—it's not an easy thing to do.

So I've known some other brothers who have run conferences, and you either get—basically it's just like church on a

Saturday or you're running around with your hair on fire because there's just so many moving pieces doing that.

So I kind of developed the skills to put on a conference like this while doing something else.

But the final kind of ingredient to doing this was I've just, in the last four years, been connected with so many great people in the faith, specifically

Gabe Wrench, who runs a program out of Moscow, Idaho. I know him very well.

Across politics. I know him very well. Yeah, yeah. In fact, he's been on the show, and I've had the privilege of meeting him personally at the

Fight, Laugh, Feast conference. Great guy. That's—you know,

Gabe's a great friend, and so he—I've helped out a little bit, not overwhelming with the

FLF conference, but through a friendship with him and relationship with him, I just kind of said like, you know,

I think there's a spot to do a conference that's in our circles, in these reform circles, but it's more a business conference.

And so—because I don't see anyone doing something like that. And so I kind of talked with him, and I talked with a few other people that are my friends up in Moscow, Idaho, and of course

I consulted with my pastor, Steve Jeffrey, who's one of our speakers too.

But Steve Jeffrey has just been a wonderful shepherd in my life. I just asked him like, do you think we could take this on?

Do you think this is a good idea? He was like, brother, I think this is a wonderful idea. I definitely think you can handle it, and what do you need from me to help with it?

So we started planning this late December in 2023, so like not even six, seven months ago.

And we were just getting good affirmation, and we were praying about it, and we just felt really called to do it.

Luckily, scheduling all the speakers, we got every speaker we wanted to get. They were all available.

And on top of that all, we felt really good about the venue and all that stuff. So suffice to say that a lot of moving pieces came together to make this event happen.

But really the heart of it was – and we'll get into this, I assume, in the more thorough conversation.

But we basically decided we need to have a conference where we're discussing work, dignity – or the work and dignity found in it.

But also things like investing, money, resources, vocation, and dominion.

Like these things are all very relevant today. And given the state of economy right now,

I think we even more need to talk about it. So we just felt like it was a very worthwhile endeavor to explore.

Well, you're going to recognize a couple of the commercials – or should I say the sponsors of a couple of commercials in my show?

Because they happen to be from one of your speakers, my dear friend

David Reese, pastor of Puritan Reformed Church in Phoenix, Arizona.

And also the founder and CEO – or not the founder, but he's the CEO of Armored Republic.

And they are advertising on – both of those fine organizations are advertising on the show.

And we thank God for Pastor David Reese and his high view of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio that led him to sharing some of the wealth with which

God has blessed him with us here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. So I'm forever grateful for that dear brother.

He is a dear brother. I actually had just gotten off the phone with him before you and me talked earlier today.

So just a wonderful man, definitely. He was one of the first people

I talked to regarding this conference because I had heard him speak at the

FLF conference a few years back. And I was really impressed with him. I mean he's such an impressive guy.

He's somewhat akin to – oh gosh, I'm blanking –

Abraham Kuyper. He's like an Abraham Kuyper of Phoenix where it's like he runs a body armor facility.

He runs the Reese Fund. He has got all these – his hands in so many different businesses that are extremely successful.

He's got a loving family. He's a great father. And then on top of it all, he's a pastor of a church. And it seems like his church is thriving and doing well.

Just what a wonderful gentleman. That's honestly – that's one of many reasons I wanted to get him to speak at the conference was, how do you do all this?

That was the FLF conference where you saw him, the one in Knoxville, Tennessee? Yeah, it would have been.

It was at that Businessmakers. Yeah, I was there at that one. That's where I met him too. That has – isn't

God funny and kind like that? Yes. We probably met in person and didn't even realize it.

Yeah, could have. Well, we're going to our first commercial break right now. And if anybody has a question about integrating faith in your workplace, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And we are now back with my guest,

Kyle Hessler, and we are discussing the works -based conferences. If you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Now, Kyle, the area of work, the area of labor, the area of integrating your faith into whatever profession you have, it's obviously multifaceted, and Christians very often err on either side of the spectrum when it comes to this.

There are, I'm sure, a multitude of Christians who keep their mouths shut about their faith, not only if they're an employee, but even if they are the

CEO or the owner of a business or corporation or in management. They may never reveal to their colleagues, coworkers, or employees about their faith in Jesus Christ.

And you have on the other end of the spectrum, another frequently committed sin by Christians, is by stealing from their employers because they're using the time for which they are employed to labor in a specific way.

They're using that time to evangelize, proselytize, and that kind of a thing.

So there are two extremes that we need to avoid, or there not. Yeah, I think there's a couple ways to go about this.

So I think on the one hand, I think that one of the reasons

I wanted to do this conference is that there's been a, I think the pendulum has shifted in the

West in terms of evangelicalism towards a very pre -Reformation kind of idea of ministry.

In the sense of prior to the Reformation, it was like the only people that did works unto

God were the priests, the monks, and the nuns. And I think that we've started to shift back into a mode that looks somewhat similar to that.

So you're only doing God's work if you're going on missions or if you're going to seminary or so on and so forth.

And I just don't think that that's biblical. So you look at Genesis, what does God tell

Adam to do? He doesn't tell him to start a ministry. He tells him to sell the earth and be fruitful and multiply.

So I think that we've done ourselves a disservice here in that we've encouraged people to think of work as this truncated.

This is, at best, this is how you provide for your family. At worst, this is a distraction from ministry.

And then in some cases, it's even viewed as like you must go to work in order to evangelize.

The actual work doesn't matter as much as actually evangelizing your co -workers.

And obviously there's truth in all of this. I mean we're not saying any of these people are certainly not heretics or apostate by any means who might suggest a more evangelical model of speaking to your co -workers in a way that hopefully leads them to Christ.

Nobody in their right mind would deny that sort of thing. What I'm kind of coming from is the priority.

So if the priority you have is at work, I must evangelize my co -workers. Well, to be perfectly honest, you're there at work.

Unless it's your company, and even then I would still have some questions about it. Your primary job when you go to work is to work, is to cultivate the earth.

And I think partially because we've – our country has become more white -collar than blue -collar.

We don't see – we see office jobs and task -oriented jobs as more menial and less – we don't view an office job as hardworking.

So I think that that's a lot of where this shift has kind of happened. And ultimately

I just think that this is an area we need to push back a little bit, and we need to reclaim a more dignified view of work because work is dignified.

You are dignified as – so at my conference, I've got David Bonson coming, and David Bonson manages billions of dollars of assets.

Many – whether your listeners – I feel like knowing the concentric circles we have, your listeners may be familiar with David Bonson, but his dad,

Rick Bonson. And even more so, yes, his father was obviously a giant of the 20th century church.

Yeah, absolutely. So you have a man who's – David Bonson, who was raised by a theologian, and now he's honestly one of the wealthiest.

He's managing so much assets, but he's obviously theologically rich, and he's able to share the gospel in a very unique way.

And he's unapologetically Christian, and yet he's made headway. So we have a gentleman like that at our conference.

I've got a couple truck drivers from my church coming to this conference. I've got a couple painters from my church coming to this conference, and I want them to feel as dignified in their work and what they do as Mr.

Bonson might. Or as dignified as my pastor,

Steve Jeffrey. He's a pastor. His work is not any more explicitly dignified than any of the other one else's.

And I think that's an area we need to recover this in, the evangelical West. So what do you think are the biggest mistakes that even well -meaning and seasoned

Christians who are really diligently trying to honor God, either as an employer or an employee – how do we most often, from your experience anyway, fail in those areas?

Well, I think one of it is misunderstanding what we're called to do. I think when we look at the

Bible, there's two Testaments for a reason. And I think that the modern church has done a very poor job of basically preaching only out of the

Gospels and maybe Acts if you're lucky, and maybe Paul if you're really lucky, but certainly nothing out of the

Old Testament. And so I think we've done this ourselves a disservice where the creation mandate to take captive and take dominion over the earth is still applied.

It's not like – if you want to get into covenantalism, whether it's a mono -covenant or not, there's a difference between the commands and the covenants.

So I believe, and I think most Christians that would read the Bible look at Genesis, and you should look at that and say the dominion mandate hasn't gone away.

We're still called to take dominion over the earth. We're still called to take the Lord's resources and turn around and bless them.

And so one of my favorite passages to talk about with people is the parable of the talents because I think we hyper -spiritualize everything.

We look at that passage where you have the first gentleman takes the talents and returns them tenfold and is blessed by giving – he basically becomes a governor of a city.

Then you have the middle gentleman who takes the talents and resources and invests them and gets not as much back but quite a bit back and is honored and glorified for that.

And then you have the last guy who doesn't do anything with that and basically blasphemes the Lord. We look at that parable, and we just spiritualize it.

We just completely miss the fact that it's a parable about investing resources and dominion.

And so I think we've done ourselves a disservice in the church where we just spiritualize everything, and we forget that we live in a material world with material goods.

And God has blessed us with so many resources, and we're called to take those resources and honor and glorify him through that, whether that be creating wonderful music or building a beautiful home or building a wonderful cathedral even or something like that.

But work is so much more dignified than simply, this is just how I pay for the bills.

That's such a low view of – So in other words, Madonna actually got something right.

We're living in a material world. I'm sorry. No, no. I think it's a great point.

So there's obviously – I think in life, there's a lot of things that we need to view with – there's a ditch on both sides.

So if you go hyper -materialism, that's a problem. If you go hyper -anti -materialism, that's a problem too.

There's a middle path, right? So I'm not calling people to be hyper -capitalists and just spend every waking day making as much money as possible.

I'm talking – I want people to be productive. I want people to be productive in their homes, in their church, and in the marketplace.

And I think when we diminish that marketplace, we're diminishing what God is calling us to do, or at least we're trying to silence part of what

God is doing. Well, praise God. Now, there are areas that we probably should address at least in summary, as much of this as you are aware anyway.

I don't know how thoroughly knowledgeable you may be about legal ramifications, about integrating faith in the workplace.

And, of course, even the states might not all be identical. But can you mention anything that would restrict, to start with, the owner of a business or the

CEO of a corporation, that would restrict the length at which he would promote and even evangelize his subordinates in the workplace or his colleagues and so on?

And then, obviously, the employee's restrictions legally as well, if any.

Yeah, so I mean clearly we live in a very foolish time. We live in a time where –

I believe I just saw today in the news that a gentleman in Kentucky who was graduating was denied his high school diploma because he mentioned his belief in Jesus Christ.

So we live in that kind of time. So when we talk about sharing our faith in the workplace, this is kind of the misnomer of what

I'm trying to get at is, yes, I want business owners and coworkers, employees to share the gospel, whether it be on a lunch break or in passing.

Or there's always going to be opportunities the Lord provides us if we act faithfully. But I think that the priority of that evangelism is often put before the primary purpose of work, which is for dads is to provide a wage and provide for their family.

A man that doesn't provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever. But what

I guess I'm trying to roundaboutly say is I think that there's been an overprioritization on that evangelism part.

That's not to say that right now we shouldn't be doing it. I think we should be doing it, and to your point, obviously there's a lot of things being put in place from big corporate companies and even from small companies too.

I can remember a time not all that long ago, this isn't exactly a gospel thing, but one of the places

I worked when COVID happened, I wasn't put in a position as so many other brothers in Christ were of, you need to take this job or you're going to lose your job.

I wasn't put in that position, but I was put awfully close to it. So we're in a time where, yeah, if you share the gospel, you might be fired.

If you share the gospel as a business owner, you might be sued. I think we need to be careful, however, of recognizing, yes, you should be sharing the gospel at work, but that's not your primary purpose in the marketplace.

Does that make sense? Yes. Because I don't want to put the tail before the nose, so to speak.

Sure. And what are some of the creative ways, because a lot of things that we do in the body of Christ that involved not only the broader ways we spread and declare the gospel and declare the good news and seek to be ambassadors for Christ, although there are certain things that we have a strict and clear

God -breathed blueprint for in the pages of the canon of the

Bible, there are other things that are really left up to our imagination and creativity in the methodology that we may use.

I'm speaking more about that which occurs outside the regular gathered corporate worship of the church, where if you believe in the regulative principle, there's not a lot of room for creativity and imagination.

But when we're talking about evangelism outside in the world, whether it be in our workplace or anywhere else, there's more of a liberty for creativity.

But if you could, if you've got any ideas. Yeah. So I think that's a great way to start the conversation, wherein we're kind of molding what

I'm talking about and evangelism in the workplace together. So I think the best kind of evangelism at a workplace is going to be the ones where you're living out the gospel and how you work.

So you're the kind of guy that shows up and follows Ephesians 5. Slaves respect your masters, masters respect your slaves, because you have a master in heaven.

When we show up to work and be the kinds of people that don't grumble, don't complain, but also are steadfast, right?

So there's going to be times where it's like, Mr. Boss, I'm not going to work overtime for free.

That's not in our contract. You can put up that fight and that's totally appropriate because you're being biblical at that point.

You're trying to follow a contract. Your employer is not. But also just showing up to work joyfully, peacefully.

And obviously most workplaces, you're going to know your coworkers. You're going to know their background. You're going to know their family if they have one.

And I think expressing as much as possible the joy that comes that we have in Christ is appropriate.

But there's another angle, too. And I see this as this is a big part we need to do. Christians need to practice repentance and forgiveness way more in the marketplace, especially with the nonbelievers.

So I've had many instances at work where I've gotten upset with a coworker, gotten frustrated.

And I went back to him and said, you know what, I need to ask your forgiveness for that. And, you know, the guy tries to brush it off.

Oh, it's no big deal. And I told him, no, no, no, I was wrong to do that. And I need to repent of that to you.

And you introduce that kind of language because, first off, I'm truly being contrite in that moment.

I'm truly being repentant in that moment. And that's hopefully demonstrating something that's foreign to the nonbeliever, right?

True repentance is kind of a foreign concept to the nonbeliever in most cases, right?

So I think that there's a variety of ways that we can just behave as Christians and set an example that hopefully lead to conversations, whether they're at the workplace in an appropriate time or they're outside of work.

And hopefully that's how we can evangelize people, because I think the misnomer with all of this to some degree is, you know, sharing the gospel while you're grabbing coffee with a coworker.

I think that's perfectly appropriate. You're just passing. You can talk about it as long as you're not forbidden from doing it for whatever reason.

That seems appropriate. I think what's less appropriate is maybe starting a Bible study in the middle of work hours, which

I'm not saying anyone does that, but I'm kind of giving a ludicrous example to kind of set the tone of what

I think we're trying to talk about, which is evangelism in the workplace. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now, so please use this time wisely.

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to my guest, Kyle Hessler, and we are talking about integrating faith into the workplace, into your profession.

And our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

We have a question from Noble in Wheatley Heights, Long Island, New York.

And Noble says, During lunch breaks and also coffee breaks and other times during the day,

I share my faith with my colleagues. I don't do so in a way where I'm hammering something over the head with them, but I try to think of ways that naturally breaks into a conversation where I will allude to something that is precious to my faith, something from the scriptures, et cetera.

I have heard from some of my fellow employees that this is illegal because we're not supposed to be bringing religion into our places of work.

I told them that's nonsense. Who is correct on this? Are you there,

Kyle? Yeah, I'm there. So he's in Long Island? Yes. Yeah, so I'm not sure about local laws, but there's two things

I would want to say. I'm a strict constitutionalist, and so the first amendment to the

Constitution is there for a reason. We have freedom of speech. So first off, say the law of the land in the public sphere is you have freedom of speech, which should include preaching the gospel.

Beyond that, I think more critically, I would have a more direct conversation with your employer because you do have a contract with your employer, and if they are saying in order to work here we need you to not do that, then

I think it is appropriate for you to say, well, I'm here for a job. I'm here to make a living. I'm here to take dominion and cultivate the garden in the way that I'm doing.

Then I think you need to make a priority call. So my thing would be it's more important,

I think, to provide for your family than immediately evangelize your coworkers.

But again, going back to the last conversation we were having, I don't think evangelism is simply boiled down.

I don't think it's simply boiled down into sharing the gospel in a very explicit way.

I think you can also be evangelistic in how you conduct yourself, on how you obey scripture.

I mean Jesus told us if we love him, we'll follow his commands. Well, some of his commands include working hard and being diligent at the workplace.

Now, there's a larger conversation I think you could have about, well, is that the right kind of place to be at, and is that the right workspace?

That's part of why we're doing this conference because we do want to have Christians finding opportunities in the workplace for new employment, new business adventures, and so on and so forth.

But obviously a gentleman in Long Island might not be able to make the conference. So I would just say on the legal side, you have the constitutions on your side, but then you also do need to have a conversation with your employer.

Beyond that, I think you're just – if your employer says you're good to go, just don't harass anybody.

In a very – the way the gentleman explained it, he doesn't sound like he's throwing

Bibles at people. So he doesn't sound like the harassing type. But if he gets a call from New York Department of Labor saying you were doing this, we're going to fine you or whatever it may be,

I think that that's where you simply – you say to the glory of God.

If I'm persecuted and my employer and the constitution, the law of the land, says

I'm allowed to do this and some bureaucrat in New York is saying you can't, I think that's where you turn your nose up at them.

So that's my opinion at least. Yeah, one of the questions that I have to follow up, and I don't know of your area of expertise in regard to this question, but I'm wondering how different, if at all, it would be if you are a government employee, and that even might depend on what city and state you live in.

Hello? Correct. Yeah, sorry. Are we getting a delay or something?

I'm not sure. There's a little one, but yeah. No, no,

I'm right there with you. I think it does kind of ultimately determine – it does matter where you live.

I live in Texas. We have a right -to -work state, so in theory

I can be fired for anything at any time. But at the same token, it's obviously a very friendly state to Christians in most capacities,

I would say. All right. So it varies from location to location. Okay, we have a listener named

Hodge in Hackberry, Texas, a little closer to you. I'm not sure how close, but Hodge says,

In my own life, it is very unfortunate to admit to you and the audience that the worst treatment

I have ever had in anything involving employment or money has been at the hands of Christians who are behaving like they are

Christians in name only. I have had the most heartbreaking things occur and the most financially damaging things occur by Christian employers, or at least so -called.

What do you have to say to those who would identify themselves publicly as Christians in the workplace in regard to the great caution that needs to be made in regard to how they treat their employees and even their customers and others?

Yeah, I think that's a fantastic question, and I think that's fantastic. I would love for this gentleman to come to the conference so I can introduce him to some of the business owners

I know who genuinely love their employees.

Let me give you an example real quick. This is anecdotal, but I think it's relevant. A few months ago,

I interviewed Mr. David Reese for some content for the conference, and we went to Armored Republic, and I was just blown away.

All smiles everywhere. I don't know how many of those people are Christians. I don't know how many of those guys are believers, but there were just smiles everywhere from the guys in the office to Mr.

Reese's assistant to the guys working in the shop. But on top of that all, at one point, it's around lunchtime, and all of a sudden, a private chef comes in and starts making lunch for everybody.

I don't know if that's a common occurrence or not, but Mr. Reese seems like the kind of guy that doesn't surprise me that would have some sort of regularity to it.

I just think that's how you conduct yourself. If he's making enough profits that he's able to say,

I want to bless my employees and still have a profitable company, I think it's totally valid. To this gentleman's credit, unfortunately,

I have dealt with a lot of Christians, whether it's a business -to -business relationship where I'm hiring a

Christian for a service and they fail me, and it doesn't go well, or it's expectations or whatever it may be.

I have never been in the position of – well, I guess I should say I was employed by a company at one point called

Right Now Media, who I think was largely faithful in how they conducted themselves, but there was something that were a little not great about that company.

But what I'll just say briefly is I think even more so than the

Christian employee behaving himself at the workplace,

I think being a Christian employer has even more duty because as – let's see.

Where is it? Ephesians 5, right? Masters respect your slaves as you have a master in heaven, as I referenced that earlier.

But that's really powerful because I think it's indicating a larger responsibility.

So I think that there's a bigger responsibility on the Christian business owner to conduct themselves than the

Christian employee, if that sort of makes sense. And part of it's just because it's about responsibility.

Being a Christian employer has a lot more – in general, the Christian employer has a lot more responsibilities because they've been blessed with more.

They have to turn more of a profit with those. And it is a real crying shame when you see people, whether they're true

Christians or they're not, it's a shame when you see people throw the Jesus fish up on their business expecting to cultivate profits from Christians and then turn around and act worse than a pagan.

I think that's a real crying shame. Yes. Even if they're the nicest people in the world and are very inadequate at what they do while waving the

Christian banner, that's also something that's very harmful and giving a black eye to the church.

But as far as what specifically our listener, Hodge, had to say,

I know firsthand what that's like. And I have heard this as an excuse from those that identify themselves as Christians in the high management positions in companies identifying as Christian.

And perhaps you've heard this, I don't know. But the excuse has been, we are going to glorify

God the most by being the most successful company that we can possibly be as we simultaneously identify as a

Christian. And in order to be the most successful company that we can be, we should imitate those companies that are the most successful, especially if they are in the same field or genre of business.

And that may even include the kind of cutthroat tactics that those in management or even owners demonstrate in their own ways of conducting business.

If that means giving no one a second chance, you fire them immediately if their failure is significant enough.

And you could go on and on with the kinds of things that heartless employees or managers do.

If they know that that business, where that is a well -known occurrence, if they know that that business is flourishing financially, then they're going to imitate that.

That's a very wrong approach. Now, obviously, it is, it should be of great concern of the profits to a corporation that are coming in because there are employees who have spouses and children depending upon the finances that they are earning, and they can only receive them through the financial success of the businesses where they're working.

But at the same time, the honoring of God and obeying

God in the scriptures must come at a higher priority, mustn't it? Yeah, I very much think so.

And part of it, it goes back to the whole idea of, you know, to much is given, much is expected.

I don't think that's just as simple as a spiritual message. I think that's also talking about the resources we've been giving.

So I definitely think that, you know, the people that have been given lots of resources and capital from the

Lord are expected to do more with that and behave better. And I think going back to the parable of the talents,

I think that's partially what's going on there. You see the gentleman that is the most fruitful with the investment of his master.

He's made governor of a town basically afterwards. Well, that doesn't sound like he got his vacation set up exactly.

He was honored and he was esteemed to a high role. But ask anyone in government, it's not exactly like managing people and managing a city is not exactly an easy thing to do.

So the guy took what the Lord gave him. He turned around and was very fruitful with it.

And his reward was more responsibility. And there's obviously pleasures that come with that.

But also just at the same time, it really was a lot more responsibility for him.

So Christian employers have a strong duty to really, really need to not be the scum.

You know, just boiling down. Don't be the scum bag employer.

Amen. Let's see. We have a listener named Tito in West Wigo or West Wigo, Louisiana.

And Tito says when it comes to an appropriate exegesis of Second Corinthians, chapter six, 14 through 18, where we read, be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness and what communion hath light with darkness and what concord hath

Christ with Belial or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel.

Many people, if not most who are in the church, use this text in regard to marriage.

But obviously it has a broader meaning. And where do we draw the line when it comes to Christians having partnerships with unbelievers?

Should a business owner who is Christian ever sell a portion of his business to an unbeliever so that they are actually partners in the business?

And that could go along with any other kind of employer, like a law firm or what have you.

Where do we draw the line on this very important issue? Yeah, that's a great question.

And that's some of the deeper, richer conversations that I want to have at the conference.

And so to be perfectly honest, I have my opinions on it and I'd be happy to express them. But understand that I'm still learning while some of this goes.

So, for example, I'm not a big fan of the startup model in which you build up a software company of whatever size.

You build it up for four or five years with the expressive intent of just selling it to a bigger company, bigger conglomerate.

I'm not a big fan of that. That being said, I have a friend who is at my church who is involved in a rollout, which is basically he is contacting very similar companies to basically form a larger.

This is my understanding of it. I might be getting it wrong, but basically he's going to be pursuing these companies to buy them up so that he can sell to a larger corporation.

Well, his job is a little bit different than the guy that's building something, just the intent of selling. But again,

I want to explore these conversations. My lean in general is to build stuff and not sell it.

So I mentioned in the first hour that I used to promote pro wrestling shows and I brought on a business partner who is

I don't think a believer. We would pray with him, but I don't I'm not sure one way or another. But I would say this, like we brought him on as a business partner.

I didn't have a problem doing that. But when push came to shove and I decided I need to stop doing this business, we need to stop.

I was offered a potential opportunity to or it was at least we had thought about selling the company to this gentleman and why

I think he would have done a good job with it. I didn't want to sell it. I would rather have let it die as a company and let it because I didn't think it was going anywhere.

I thought it was important that it just rest in peace rather than sell to somebody who then would take the name that I labored to build up as not only a quality product, but also

I was very clear about my faith and my. I would pray before all of our events.

And so basically what I'm saying is I didn't make it a Christian company per se. But I think a lot of people would recognize that Kyle was a

Christian and he owned it. I wouldn't want to have sold that company and kept that brand, given it to somebody else for them to turn around and bastardize it.

So to this gentleman's question, like, yeah, I think I think there's a lot of different ways to think about these things. But I would go to I think it's first Corinthians 510 where Paul is talking about basically in order to flee sexually deviant people, you'd have to leave the earth.

And I think what he's basically saying is, like, we still have to interact with our pagan neighbors. And whether you're interacting with somebody that's just a seemingly normal dude, but he's he's still in rebellion towards God or you're working with a transvestite who is very maybe, you know, it's very hard to work with that person.

But it's very obvious where their sin is that regardless of who it may be, if you you can't leave the earth, we can't.

We're not at the spot yet where the whole world is Christian. So I think we have to interact with these people.

And so whether that means you can take an investment from a pagan or not, I'm not sure. My lean would be

I would I'm not saying as a as a moral thing, you wouldn't be in sin by taking money from a nonbeliever.

I would say it's unwise in most circumstances, but it depends on what kind of company you're trying to build.

So but this gets in the question of can Christians hire nonbelievers? Can can can a

Christian go work for a nonbeliever? So on and so forth. I think these are all very related topics. And I think that my my short answer is you should want to work with Christians as much as possible.

But it's certainly not a mandate. I'm not saying the Bible says you must do this. I'm saying there's a wisdom element to it.

But like I'm talking to a gentleman right now who lives in Grand Rapids, Michigan, is looking for employment in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in a very specific kind of role.

And he wants to only work for a Christian. And I'm going to tell him, like, brother, I think you just need to stay faithful where you're at unless you're ready to pick up and move, because you may be in a situation where it's going to be much harder to you.

You're going to have to work really hard to get out of that situation rather than just go find some Christian that you can go work with.

Because there might not be a company. So to that gentleman's credit or question, I think.

First off, I still don't have it figured out, but second off, come to the conference and third off, my opinion would be in so much as possible, we should be doing business amongst

Christians as our primary goal. But but not making it law, if that makes sense.

Yeah. And I'm assuming that there would be far more agreement amongst

Christians, especially, you know, those who are pastors and even Christian business owners, corporate executives, that there is a big difference between becoming a partner.

And the ownership or governance of an organization that is with a partner that is not a believer than being an employee of such a person or to hire unbelievers.

There is a unique authority that you are giving to an unbeliever when you're partnering with them.

Yes, I think that's a great distinction. I do think so. And of course, it's not really always a black and white situation because you may have things that are businesses within a family and not everybody in the family is a born again believer.

You know, there's all kinds of things like that that don't make it as cut and dry as it may seem.

Yes, right. Yeah, it's definitely these are I mean, like I said, this is why I'm putting on a conference to discuss these things, because I think they're extremely relevant in the world we live in today.

And I think they're always going to be relevant. But I do think that they're conversations that we need to explore.

OK, we have Lydia in Wurtsboro, Sullivan County, New York.

And Lydia wants to know, there seems to be a great deal of debate amongst even conservative

Christians as to the role of women in the workplace. There are some

Christian leaders who teach that women should only be employed if they are working from their home, especially if there are still young children in the home.

There are others who would say that a woman has more of a liberty to work outside of the home if the children are grown and not in need of a mother at home at all times.

What is your opinion on this yourself? And do you know the opinions of the men speaking at your conference on this?

Yeah, I would say this is a great question. I appreciate it, Lydia. I would say all the men at my conference are biblical and thoughtful.

So they would – none of them would show up to a church that has a woman preaching at them.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if all of them that have the ability to employ a woman have employed a woman because Mr.

David Reese, his secretary, was a lovely woman. I mean she was a woman.

Mr. Reese's receptionist is a woman, and I dealt with her, and she's wonderful. And I'm not sure about Chris Wiley, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's employed a woman in his – or hired a woman even maybe for potential roles.

But I would say the caveat with this is we need to look at scripture. So I want to point to good men who are doing good things and say if they're doing it,

I think there's some leniency into it. But I would say Douglas Wilson, who's kind of a hero of mine, he phrased it really well.

There's an Ask Doug video you can find on YouTube or on the Canon app if you have it where he talks about this, and I think he said it used to be said that a woman's place is the home.

And he doesn't think that's appropriate in light of scripture. He thinks the woman's priority needs to be the home.

So by that, he means that a wife should be focused on raising up – or having children, raising up children, keeping the home neat and tidy to whatever the family's expectations are, and laboring around the house and making sure her husband is equipped to go out into the world.

Think about it like this. If you've ever seen a World War II movie, the good ones –

I just finished a show called Masters of the Air, which was brilliant, and it's all about the bombers of World War II.

And they made a strong emphasis to the ground crews, the air controllers, the repairmen that helped make the bombers able to go.

That's the wives, right? Wives – a godly wife is making sure that her husband is well -equipped to go out into the world and fight.

And she's also – should be raising up children in the same manner. And of course, where do

I get all this from? Proverbs 31. Read Proverbs 31. It makes it clear as day that the ideal woman is involved in real estate.

She's involved in the marketplace. So yes, Lydia, great question. I'm so glad you asked it.

Would we at Workspace consider having a woman speak? Well, we almost did. We almost had a woman named

Crystal from the U .S. Christian Chamber of Commerce. She was going to speak at our conference. We couldn't make the dates work.

So I'm not opposed to having women speak at our conference or be a part of our conference, but clearly there's – most men, you can look at and ask them about their job.

The things you're going to talk to them about are, are you lazy at your job, this, that, and the other. If a woman says she has a job,

I think the first kind of questions are, well, what's going on here, particularly if it's a young woman.

Are you out of the house, not married yet? Oh, okay. Well then, of course, having a job seems completely inappropriate.

Oh, you're married. You don't have children yet. You're waiting 10 years. Okay. Maybe you need to speak with your pastor a little bit.

Oh, you're 45, and you have three wonderful kids who are in a classical school or they're off to university, and you have no more child -rearing to do.

Okay, I think a job seems really appropriate for you. So I think that that's like – I'm trying to address this as much as possible because I think it's a very important question, very thoughtful question, and I think

I've tried to cover as much ground as I can with it. I'm actually starting to wonder if Lydia was using a fake name because of Lydia the

Seller of Purple in the Bible. Oh, that's funny. And by the way, I'm not angry if you did that,

Lydia. It's a very clever use. If that indeed is the case, it might be a real name. I don't know. But there is a very vivid example of a woman who is very successful in a business.

Apparently, purple fabric was very expensive, and we're not given a lot of details about her home life that I'm aware of as far as husband, children, that kind of thing.

We just know that she was very successful at what she did, and we also know that her salvation is a great example of regeneration preceding faith because the

Lord opened up her heart so that she could understand what Paul was talking about. But thank you,

Lydia, if that is your real name. We have to go to our final break right now, and if you have a question,

I would send it in as quickly as possible because we are rapidly running out of time. ChrisOrenson at gmail .com.

ChrisOrenson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least. City and state and country of residence.

Please don't go away. We'll be right back. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

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Now shipping worldwide. Welcome back. And folks,

I want to remind you that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco &

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United States. That's 1 -800 -NOW -HURT. And we are now back with Kyle Hessler.

And I would really like to make sure before we run out of time, Kyle, to give a reminder to our listeners of the speakers at the conference, a summary of what they'll be speaking on, and also, obviously, the name and the name of the city and state of where the conference will be held, and all the information that our listeners need to register for it.

Yes, sir. So, yeah, the Workspace Conference will be happening June 28th and 29th in Fort Worth, Texas.

So if you're in the Texas area, it's just Dallas, Fort Worth area. And then if you're planning on if you're interested enough to travel to it, it's a quick flight or it's a quick drive from the

DFW Airport, which is super accessible. The speakers we will have are, first and foremost, our keynote guy is

David Bonson, who we talked about earlier in the program. His dad was Greg Bonson. David Bonson manages the

Bonson Group. That's about $5 billion of resources they manage.

And he's going to be talking about kind of about his book that he just released called

Full Time, which I encourage people to read. And it's basically just readdressing a lot of the topics we've already covered today.

So he's got a good general summary. My pastor, Steve Jeffrey, will be talking on a theology of work.

He's actually promised me he plans to go through the whole Bible in one hour and talk about the dignity of work that's found in every page of the

Bible. So that'll be an interesting challenge. I'm very excited to see how he does that. And just one little note about my beloved pastor.

He is the only gentleman on the panel who is not currently in business. So he did have a previous life kind of doing some business, not a lot, but some.

All my other speakers, even if they're a pastor, are heavily involved in business.

So the next guy would be the aforementioned David Reese, a friend of the program. He will be talking about investing as a form of dominion and how

Christians need to view investing. David's also going to be giving a series of lectures Friday morning that are very practical.

They're going to be a little bit more involved. C .R. Wiley will be talking, too.

C .R. Wiley is a pastor out in Oregon. He's a great guy. Written several books. The primary one is

Household and War for the Cosmos, which is a fantastic book. Yeah, I interviewed Chris on that.

Yeah, he's great. So Chris will be talking. And then last but not least is Andrew Krebschitz.

He's an elder in Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. He's the CEO of RedBalloon .Work.

If you want to look for a job, that is a great place to look. It's basically a Christian conservative

LinkedIn. Indeed .com. And Andrew is going to be talking about getting the right people for the right job, which

I think is an important topic. So if you're planning on coming, if you've been persuaded or you're just hearing about this and it sounds great to you, get your tickets at WorksBased .com.

That's WorksBased .com. I'm still surprised we got that URL, but we got it. And I would just say also, this is going to be a great opportunity if you're looking for employment.

If you want to do business with Christians, we're going to have a lot of vendors there. Also, if you're just looking for a good time, we're going to be doing psalm singing.

We're going to have some beer. It's going to be a great weekend. It's going to be really thoughtful and productive, but also going to be an opportunity to worship and hang out with other believers that you may not know.

And so I think there's going to be a great mix of churches in different denominations and theological backgrounds. But my hope is very much that we do some business amongst ourselves, in addition to just celebrating and worshiping our

Lord. And I had the privilege of meeting Andrew of Red Balloon at the Fight Left -East conference in Knoxville, Tennessee.

And I hope to get him on the program as well. I can help you make that happen if you want.

Oh yeah, I definitely want that to happen. Well, if you could, in just about a minute's time, summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this subject.

Yeah, I want men and women to understand that the gospel is not a truncated version of just share that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead to conquer sin and death.

Well, that is the basis of everything Christian. We have to understand that there's a phrase

I love, all of Christ for all of life, which includes how we love our children, how we worship, how we respect and honor our spouses, but also includes how we deal with the marketplace.

And that has been a significantly underappreciated element. And so I want Christians to start appreciating more and more their role that is in the marketplace and how we can take dominion for the

Lord as being obedient children of God in doing such a thing.

Amen. And once again, the Web site to find out more information about the works based conference is works based dot com.

W. O. R. K. S. B. A. S. E. D. Dot com.

I want to thank you so much, Kyle, for being such a wonderful guest. I look forward to your return. The Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write. And I want each and every one of you listening to always remember for the entirety of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater savior than you are a sinner.