James White vs Ann McKinney (Fundamentalists Anonymous)

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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In any event, we're going to be talking about fundamentalism. Fundamentalism. What is it? What does it mean?

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What effects does it have? And, of course, you heard like us the other day with a very, very active debate between a fundamentalist and an atheist, which

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I thought was very, very interesting. Again, two sides of an issue, not this wimpish approach to radio where you just get one side.

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We have in our studio Mr. Jim White. He is with Alpha and Omega Ministry, which

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I have to assume is a fundamentalist organization. And we have on our information line

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Ann McKinney, and she is the head of the Dallas chapter of the Fundamentalist Anonymous.

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We have two opposing forces here, and that's the way we should dissect issues, see both sides of it.

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Welcome aboard, Ann McKinney. Well, thank you, Bob. You're in Dallas, Texas, and you are the head of the

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Dallas chapter of the Fundamentalist Anonymous. I would like you to say hello, if you will, to Mr.

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Jim White of the Alpha and Omega Ministry. Well, hello, Jim. I think you're going to find in the long run that we probably have a lot more points in common than you think, and we're probably shooting for a lot of the same goals.

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Well, I don't want you people agreeing. I want you disagreeing. I mean, come on here. Okay, we'll try.

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All right, fine. Now, I'm going to start off first with Jim White with Alpha Omega Ministry.

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Is it true, in my assumption, that this is a fundamentalist organization? I am a fundamentalist

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Christian minister, yes. And what do you espouse in this particular organization? Well, Alpha Omega Ministries is a

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Christian organization that trains Christians to deal with other religions. We deal in Christian apologetics.

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For example, I was as interested as you were with Tom's program two days ago, because we deal a lot in that area of sharing the

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Christian faith with atheists, with people who would take a Christian label but would deny the central doctrines of Christianity.

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And that's the main function of our ministry. But you are a fundamentalist.

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Yes, I am. Beneath it all, you are a fundamentalist. And, of course, we'll need to define that. Yeah, I would like to do that right now, because for the benefit of our listeners, we've heard a lot about fundamentalists.

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Pat Roberts is a fundamentalist. What does that mean? What is fundamentalism? Well, unfortunately, today, the original definition of fundamentalism has seemingly been lost in the shuffle.

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Whether that was purposeful or not is obviously open to debate. A fundamentalist, historically, is a person who holds to the fundamental doctrines of the

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Christian faith, which would include the acceptance of the Word of God, the

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Bible as the Word of God. It would then follow that we would believe that there is one God, that Jesus Christ is the

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Son of God, that we believe in the Trinity, the virgin birth of Christ, the Atonement of Christ, the Resurrection of Christ, and, in other words, the fundamentals of the

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Christian religion. Now, the term evolved when the wave of, quote -unquote, liberalism swept through seminaries at the beginning of this century, specifically

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Princeton and others, when these fundamentals were attacked. And so those who held to those beliefs in the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ became known as fundamentalists over against those who would take a whole metaphysical interpretation that, well, it doesn't really matter whether Jesus rose bodily or not type idea.

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That is what a fundamentalist is theologically. Unfortunately, a lot of excess baggage has been added to the term fundamentalist, especially since the

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Christian right has risen in the political spectrum over the past decade.

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Do you not consider yourself part of the religious right? Well, politically, I would be. But to completely identify fundamentalism with a particular political viewpoint,

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I think, is to do a great disrespect to the fundamentalist position. If a person is going to, for example, name an organization

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Fundamentalist Anonymous, which would be similar to Alcoholics Anonymous, which would have a negative connotation to what a fundamentalist is, then

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I think you should define who it is you're talking about. All right, let's find out from Ann McKinney. She is the head of the Dallas chapter of Fundamentalist Anonymous.

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Just what is this organization? Well, FA is basically set up as a self -help and support group by people who have not had the kind of happy, joyous experience in fundamentalist religions that Jim has obviously had.

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Basically, what we're stating is that there's a certain mindset that goes along with certain fundamentalist religions and certain people's experience within fundamentalist religions that's an almost obsessive, compulsive situation.

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A lot of people get into the fundamentalist religions because they have so many problems in their lives and they go in being promised a bill of goods.

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God will take care of this. God will take care of that. Everything will be rosy and sunny if you're born again our way.

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And then when they get to the other side and they find that the answers are not there, the kind of promises that were sold and packaged with God were not there, there's a great deal of frustration.

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Quite often, people leave the fundamentalist religions because they have a question within doctrine or a question, say, you know, some people get upset about Darwinian theory of evolution and scientific creationism versus evolution and will be so stressed by that that they will leave religion.

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Some people, on the other hand, are forced out of the church, whether it be for a political view, personal view, political battle within the church, whatever.

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Those people are left quite often without a support system because their lives are within the church, all their friends are within the church, sometimes their jobs are within the church, and they have no stronghold.

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They are left angry, depressed, and they're so upset with the experience of religion that they turn their back completely on faith.

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And I think that Jim would agree with me that a lot of stuff is done in the name of religion that has absolutely nothing to do with faith, and those kind of situations occur.

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These people are left like the religious walking wounded. Some people carry this pain, the anger, the guilt.

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They are told they are backsliders if they question any point of doctrine within that specific church. It may not have anything to do with what's in the

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Bible, but, you know, it gets a lot to legalism, and legalism would be defined as, you know, you can't dance, you can't smoke, you can't drink, you can't wear this color outfit.

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You know, some religions get that specific, and it's within those religions that people get the most frustrated, and that's where we are there for.

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We are a support system for those people dealing with the pain. We're not anti -God. We're not anti -religion.

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We're not even anti -fundamentalist because some people are very happy and are very spiritually and personally enriched in fundamentalism.

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We think that's great, but for those people who need a support system in the interim, we're there.

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It is my understanding from this little booklet that I have in my hand right now, Anne, that there are some very serious problems that are associated with people who are disenchanted with fundamentalism, and I'm just going to name a few of them and then allow our guest to react to it.

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Number one is low self -esteem, loneliness, and isolation.

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These are symptoms of somebody who is disenchanted with fundamentalism. Chronic depression, fear of divine retribution, sexual difficulties, fear of harassment, coercion, and persecution by fundamentalists, inability to talk about past involvement and background, occasional lapses into fundamentalist consciousness, bitterness and anger over lost time, in other words, the time that they have devoted to the pursuit of this belief.

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They resent that. And chronic distrust of peoples and groups. You find these to be common denominators with former fundamentalists, is that correct?

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This has been almost a blanket situation nationwide.

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In any situation where someone has come out of the fundamentalist religions, not all of them, but some of them are for any reason.

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They've devoted a great deal of time, their entire livelihoods quite often, their entire emotional value is put in that religion.

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And when they are left sort of high and dry, those are the kind of responses we have.

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I counsel people every day, people who are suicidal, people who are alcoholic, people who are depressed, and I've talked several people down for the moment.

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I've heard a gun barrel whirling on the other end of the phone one time, and that will tell you the kind of level of depression that I'm having to deal with.

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Let me jump in here and give Jim White another opportunity.

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This is a hell of a religion if it results in depression and bitterness and retribution, fear, guilt, and so forth.

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How do you respond to this? Well, I'd just like to point out that the idea that fundamentalism is the cause for this,

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I think, is completely off base. First of all, you will find liberals who are depressed, who have low self -esteem, the whole nine yards.

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This has nothing to do with fundamentalism. It has to do with a mindset that some people might get into.

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But to say that a fundamentalist per se then creates a mindset in which they are liable to undergo depression, suicidal thoughts, is to misrepresent what fundamentalism is.

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Obviously, a fundamentalist answer to that is simply this. If a person truly follows the precepts that are laid down by fundamentalism and understands those things, there are answers for all the things that she has brought up.

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Those things occur in everyone's life. You're saying that they can solve their own problem through the fundamentalist precepts that she's saying are causing the problems.

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Exactly. I'm saying that fundamentalism is not the source of these problems. These problems happen to everyone, whether they're fundamentalists or not.

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I mean, would you not agree we could probably find a few liberals who have attempted to commit suicide?

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To identify the acceptance of the central core of Christianity and make that an equation in which that results in these kinds of things,

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I think just is simply not true. I, too, have counseled with many people who were not fundamentalists who were going through this kind of a situation.

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To identify fundamentalism with a mindset that creates this, I think is simply not true.

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I am a fundamentalist. I have as many strains on my life as anyone else does.

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I'm not suicidal. I don't have a low self -esteem. The things that you listed there, you are going to find people in any church organization that are going to have problems with suicide.

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Any church organization. You name the most extreme cult on the left or the most extreme church on the right, and you're going to find people that are attracted to those things.

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That does not mean that the teaching of that church fosters that kind of a reality. I'm going to recite a few quotes, and I would invite both of you,

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Jim and Ann, to jump in here and we'll try to establish a theme. Some of these quotes are somewhat disturbing, and I'm going to ask you,

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Jim, to respond to it. God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew. Agree or disagree?

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You have to define the context in which it was stated. Wait a minute. Don't dance around this.

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God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew. That is a quote from Reverend Bailey Smith, president of the

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Southern Baptist Convention. I'm sure it's been around the country a thousand times. At least. At least. Now, you're a fundamentalist.

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You would have to agree with that utterance. No, wait a minute. Let's get some ground rules down here.

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First of all, do you have the entire quote there with an entire paragraph in it? Well, then you know as well as I how you can take something out and make something of it, right?

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If it's not in its context. Go ahead. The context would be in reference to, it is a theological position, by the way, that the believer has direct access to God through Jesus Christ.

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No unbeliever has the same access. That does not mean that God does not hear an unbeliever's prayer.

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He just does not hear it in the same way as a believer. And you have to put it in the same context in which he spoke it.

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That's unfair to put it in the context that is foreign to what the speaker originally said. I heard him explain that or attempt to explain that away and I didn't get any substance from it.

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Well, let's put it this way. I would agree with it if you put it in that context. Alright. Do you have any comment on that, Anne? I found that to be one of the most reprehensible statements that came out of that particular

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Southern Baptist convention and that happened to have occurred here. And I heard the entire speech and I heard the context in which the statement was made and those kinds of comments are quite common within certain fundamentalist religions.

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The aspect is we have the only true way to God in the big picture. That's like Jimmy Swagger recently stating that Mother Teresa, while a good and noble Christian woman and doing everything she could in the piety of Christ -like piety, was still going to go to hell because she wasn't born again in the same way that he felt was prescribed as the ultimate way to heaven.

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Well, again, this is a very common problem in discussing this subject and that is fundamentalism has become this massively broad definition that pulls anybody and everybody in who makes a

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Bible comment all of a sudden they become a fundamentalist. Again, I would have to say that fundamentalism, if you're going to define it that way, is your own definition.

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It is not the definition that is historically based and able to be discussed on its own merits, on its own grounds.

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Well, I can see how some of these quotes could cause a great deal of suspicion on the part of those who are not truly initiated into fundamentalism.

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Let me quote another one. God Almighty says that when you enter into marriage, Jesus Christ is the head of the man and the husband, in turn, is the head of the wife.

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In important decisions, if there is any kind of dispute, the ultimate authority needs to be the husband.

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Agree or disagree with that? You agree with that? I can see where this would cause some very definite problems within a marriage,

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Anne McKinney. Out of context, yes. No, wait a minute. Why is it out of context? It's a direct quote from Reverend Pat Robertson.

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I'm well aware of that, but let's finish the topic. See, you're taking that and the way

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I heard you, and I listened this morning. I'm a faithful listener too, Bob. I listened this morning. I heard you mention that.

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And that does not finish the fact that the person who originally taught that, i .e.,

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the apostle Paul, that's not Pat Robertson. That's Paul. That's New Testament.

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Pat Robertson obviously believes it. Well, yes, because it's in the New Testament. But that is not all the

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New Testament teaching concerning the man -woman relationship. The bottom line, Jim, is that women should be subservient to men within the confines of the fundamentalist religion.

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That they are to be suppressed. They're not to be consulted. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

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And I will state that with a massive vote. Jump in here, Anne. Jump in here. But I find that quite often that is the situation.

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Not only are we conditioned within fundamentalist religions as women that we are to be totally subservient unto our husband, but in many cases, like right here in Dallas, it is perfectly fine for a woman who has a calling to the ministry to go to Dallas Theological Seminary and audit courses.

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But a woman will never be allowed to be a full -time student. A woman will never be allowed to be a minister. In many churches, women are not even allowed on the pulpit.

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It is a situation that states that women in fundamentalist religions have the ultimate double whammy here.

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Because we are told not only are we to be totally subservient unto the man, because that's the way God planned it according to Paul, but second, that we are the ultimate perpetrators of the original sin.

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And there are a lot of religions that punish women for that. They are saying Eve was beguiled by the snake.

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Thus, every woman will pay for the rest of her life. And I think a lot of fundamentalist religions continue to promote that, continue to propagate that in their testimonies in churches.

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Allow me to finish what I was saying. There is so much misunderstanding of what the

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New Testament teaching on this is. It's unbelievable. You listen to talk radio stations across the nation, and oh boy, everybody calls in and says, oh, the

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Bible puts down women, the Bible puts down women, they're subservient, and all the rest of this stuff. Anyone who says that has obviously not spent three picoseconds studying the subject.

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Not at all. When Jesus Christ came, women were nothing but chattel. They were complete property.

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That's it. They were not a person. They had no equality with man in any way, shape, or form. The New Testament presents the woman as a person who is saved in Jesus Christ.

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The Bible says, Galatians chapter 3, there is neither male nor female, you're all one in Christ Jesus. They are treated as a person in Him that was completely and totally revolutionary.

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Jesus ran into problems with the people of His day because He treated women in a way that was unknown.

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Now to take the fact, excuse me, let me finish my point. Now to take the fact, to take the fact that Paul then says, the home is not to have two heads.

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It is an organization. There's supposed to be one person at the top. To take that and say that women are therefore made somehow lower than the man is to ignore the fact that the man is to love the woman with the same love with which

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Christ loved the church. He is to love her, respect her, consult her, take care of her.

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There is a mutual relationship there. And to present the Christian viewpoint of the man -woman relationship as a simple put -down of the woman is to completely and totally misunderstand it.

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Now, realize also, try to be fair with us for a moment, that there are going to be people who are going to take one verse and men who are going to take one verse, and men have taken one verse out of its context and have therefore mistreated their wives and mistreated women on the basis of that text.

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A very basic thing in fundamentalism, you quote the Bible in context. All right, hold on, hold your point right there.

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There is a strong possibility the fundamentalist preacher will be running for the presidency. This causes some pause with many

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Americans. We have on our information line Anne McKinney. She is the head of the Dallas chapter of Fundamentalist Anonymous.

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And Mr. Jim White, who is with Alpha and Omega Ministries, a fundamentalist organization.

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We invite you to participate. Are you comfortable, uncomfortable with this? Let me go ahead and declare myself on this for both of you.

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I feel uncomfortable around fundamentalists. I feel that it is based on narrow -mindedness, fear, guilt.

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I attribute it very closely to the Ayatollah Khomeini, similarly. The restriction of freedom,

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I think, is a very serious threat among fundamentalists. They are concerned about what people read, what movies they see, what they see on television and so forth.

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They seem to want to impose their moral values on other people who may not share their same religious experience.

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How would you react to that, Jim? Well, I'd say you've been exposed to, unfortunately, probably a very vocal, but I would say a minority, of what

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I would identify as fundamentalists. Now, Jimmy Swaggart is one example of a man who has turned me off from religion.

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Okay, I do not support Jimmy Swaggart in everything that he says.

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That's one neat thing. People think fundamentalists have no freedom of choice. That is completely and totally false. Fundamentalism does stress adherence to particular doctrines and indeed is intolerant of rejection of those doctrines because those doctrines are central to the

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Christian faith. But to misconstrue the understanding that all fundamentalists are,

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I think you used the term, close -minded. Is that the terminology you utilized a few moments ago? I'm a fundamentalist.

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I have exposed myself to atheism in its full attack upon my faith.

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Many other religions I am aware of, philosophical viewpoints.

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I am an open -minded person when it comes to listening to what other people have to say. Then you obviously don't object to somebody going into a store and buying

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Playboy magazine. Well, now, wait a minute. How are you equating that? I'm equating it because Jerry Falwell has made a campaign and a career out of purging stores of Playboy, Penthouse.

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But your question to me was, am I an open -minded individual? That means, am

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I willing to expose myself... Would you join ranks with Jerry Falwell and picket a

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Circle K or a 7 -Eleven or any other store that sells what you perceive to be pornography?

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I am against pornography. You would picket with him and deny me the right to go in and buy a

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Playboy magazine. That's what I'm talking about, narrow -minded, restricted. I don't think that most people who are involved in that are taking it on the stance that it is available to almost anybody in that situation.

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If you want to go out and buy a pornographic magazine, fine. But I think that my children, when they go into Circle K, should not have to be exposed to it.

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It should be in a situation where you, as an adult, like beer. You can go get your beer if you're old enough.

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Unfortunately, most of those magazines, you don't have to pick them up to see what they are. They're behind the counter and they're behind plain brown wrappers.

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Your children are not going to be exposed to it. Not most of the time. Let's go to some of our callers. Ann, any time, you jump in here.

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I'd like one quick comment here. Go ahead. On the recent efforts of Mr.

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Swaggard in particular, he made a speech that made a policy change with the

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Walmart Corporation. And now Walmart has pulled all the rock and roll magazines, rock and roll records, anything rock and roll.

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And they still allow the sale of country music and certain rap music.

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Now, country music is far more pornographic, you know, sleeping single in a double bed, etc., etc., etc.

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And I see them jumping all over rock music because it's something visual that youth is attracted to.

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But I don't see Jerry Falwell making a stand. I don't see Don Wildman from National Federation for Decency making a stand against rock music.

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And then we see Swaggard suggesting that it is moral and correct. And here we have

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Jim suggesting that it's perfectly fine to pick at these stores. Well, Dallas, buckle up the

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Bible Belt that it is, is the capital office of the Southland Corporation, which owns 7 -Eleven.

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7 -Eleven was protested by 4 ,000 people last year on the other side. I will admit to you openly and quite proudly that outside my work as FAA contact person,

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I'm a political activist, and I proudly hold my head up as the organizer of the anti -Falwell march here last

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Labor Day. Not that I am pro -pornography, but I think as a First Amendment proponent, it is important to give people an opportunity and an option to decide.

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And when you go out in support through the Meese Commission, such a pain of the activity is to send every store owner nationwide letters claiming that they're going to be listed as a national pornographer.

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What the fundamentalists are doing is a religious scare tactic and emotional blackmail. There is no causal link to verify that pornography is the downfall of America.

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And I personally would much rather see them pull Soldier of Fortune and Blood and Death magazines as being far more dangerous and detrimental to their children.

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I don't think the sight of Mid -September's Bear Guy is going to have the kind of traumatic experience on a 13 -year -old child that's seen

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Soldier of Fortune with an Afghani rebel blown apart from page 405 to 407 in graphic living cover.

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I think that's going to be the ultimate downfall of youth. Let me just mention the very fact that you just pointed out that two different,

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Jerry Falwell takes a different position, has not taken a stand on the issue, points out the fact that you do not, you cannot identify fundamentalism with the broad general definition you're using right now as being a unanimity of opinion.

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You cannot do that. What you're saying is you're split philosophically. You're not united in fundamentalism.

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Using the broad definition that you're using right now. I'm not saying that every fundamentalist is out to close down the bookstores, to close the libraries.

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You know, we have a situation here where they're talking about going into the art museums now. We have in San Antonio, they're trying to force the school district to remove

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Clan of the Cave Bear, a rather innocuous, you know, harmless book.

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They've tried to remove a lot of other books, including Catcher in the Rye, books that are traditional taught subjects in the school because they consider them to espouse what they classify as secular humanism.

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And in the debate recently on TV, they stated on Nightline that secular humanism is anything that doesn't fit their criteria of godlike behavior.

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And that's what terrifies me. It may not be you that's trying to close down the bookstores. It may not be you that's trying to force their politics down America's throats.

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But people that hold themselves up as your allies are doing it. And that terrifies me.

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And would you admit, however, that there are many people who hold a fundamentalist

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Christian position who are not involved in doing the things that you are talking about, that you can believe in the central doctrines of Christianity without necessarily going off the edge?

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I agree. I don't think people are worried necessarily about that. And I never said there wasn't. I don't think people are worried about the little guy sitting back quietly letting life go by.

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I think people are worried about the Pat Robertsons, the Jerry Falwells, and the Jimmy Swagerts of the world. Who are imposing their will on people.

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Don't blame that on fundamentalism. They claim to be fundamentalists, Jim. They claim to be the highest form of fundamentalism.

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These are the ones we're worried about. But I think it's illogical to blame all fundamentalists for something you don't like politically.

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If you want to say a political right -winger, a political fundamentalist, fine. But don't lay all the problems of everyone who's on the right wing and who happens to carry a

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Bible on the footsteps of a theological position. That simply is not logical.

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There's no logic to that at all. We're going to have to go to our phone lines right now. Let's talk with Norm from Phoenix. Good morning, Norm. Good morning.

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I'm not a student of the Bible, and I hope you guessed it, but is he? I would assume he is.

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Somewhere in the Bible was a passage referring to God in the four corners of the earth. Is that correct? Yes.

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Now, do you take the Bible literally? Yes, I do. So is the earth flat? No. Well, then how can you take it literally?

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Because it has nothing to do with that. Well, you can't go to four corners and around. Sir, let me say something. Do you read

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Greek? No, I don't. How about Hebrew? I'm listening to you talking. Well, sir, you asked me a question.

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I'm trying to answer your question. Please answer it for me. Do you read either Greek or Hebrew? I read a little Hebrew, yes.

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Okay. Now, have you studied biblical backgrounds? Slightly in Hebrew. The point is this.

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People like to say, well, all fundamentalists believe you interpret the Bible literally, and then they go on to make absolutely absurd statements, as if no fundamentalist on earth has any gray matter between his ears at all.

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But why is that absurd? I mean, if you take the Bible literally word for word... Sir, sir. Let him finish his point. Let me finish my point, will you please?

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Go ahead. When you're talking about taking the Bible literally, it is included in that, if you've read any fundamentalist literature,

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I would suggest, for example, Dr. Norman Geisler or some others along those lines, they will mention and will make it very clear that when you say you interpret the

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Bible literally, that means you interpret it in the way it is written. If it uses symbols, then you refer to those symbols and you interpret them as symbols.

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If they make an obvious metaphor, you interpret it as a metaphor. If they're using the language of the time, you interpret it as the language of the time.

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If they use idioms, so on and so forth. And so to force a person to take everything literally in the

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Bible means that you would take... The Bible says, Jews went out and hanged themselves. It also says, go ye and do likewise.

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It also says, what you do, do quickly. Now, I could take those three passages, take them literally, and we should all go out and commit harry -carry.

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Obviously, that's not what the biblical writers intended. Yeah, but I'm not taking the Bible literally. You are. You claim it literally.

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Again, I don't think you listen to what I just said. I think the whole problem here, and Anne might agree with me, that there are probably 100 ,000 different interpretations of the

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Bible, which proves nothing. Well, there have been so many versions of the Bible, and there have been so many interpretations.

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And, you know, like the Catholics will have 9 or 10 different books that St. King James wouldn't have.

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You know, the thing that the bottom line is here is that if you believe that it is the inerrant word of God with no errors, and there are many people who believe it as is, as written, and are not as open and as not as willing to interpretation as Jim is, and for those people, you know, there is no errors.

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There are no problems in the Bible. You know, I could point out, you know, we could go from nitpicking aspects, the way the gentleman on the phone,

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Norm, was talking about, you know, with, say, when Judas realized what he had done, he had in one interpretation in one of the

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Gospels, he used the money to buy land and then hung himself. In the other, he threw himself off the rocks and exploded onto the ground.

30:39

Okay? When a friend of mine who was a minister went to a seminary, he asked his teacher, well, what is it?

30:48

You know, did he explode on the ground, or did he hang himself? And the man, to try to pacify his situation at the point of being brought up, says, well,

30:58

I guess the rope broke. You know, and if you want to go and nitpick that way, that's perfectly fine.

31:03

If that's how you can interpret and accept the Bible as is, then do it that way.

31:09

But for some people, the Bible is not the inerrant word of God. There are a lot of questions. There are a lot of points, and there are things in the

31:17

Bible that are so heinous that in modern -day society, they would be arrested for. I'm talking about all of the good old guys in the great

31:25

Old Testament who had sex with their daughters and recreated an entire line. A man who threw his virgin daughters out so that allegedly the angels would be prepared and saved from the sodomites.

31:37

I mean, there are some really heinous, heinous aspects of the Bible. And to hold the Bible up is a wonderful book all the time.

31:44

There's romance and mystery and violence, like they say in the Pat Robertson commercial for the book, but there are also tragedies and criminal activities and horrible activities that are being promoted and propagated in the name of Jesus.

31:59

And you shouldn't say that the book is Jesus' only word, because you have to admit that the

32:04

Bible was written down by men. Men make errors, men have judgments, men are prideful, men will change the word to suit their own purpose.

32:13

And unless you can show me a copy of the Bible written in stone that God put himself, you know, like the

32:20

Ten Commandments, it would be impossible to say the Bible is inerrant. You know, a couple of months ago

32:27

I debated Ben Ackerley. Well, I was just mentioning that, I don't know how many of our listeners have heard

32:33

Ben Ackerley. He is the author of the X -rated Bible. Yeah, he's been on this show. Yes, I debated him a couple of months ago here.

32:40

And every point that he made was just brought up by Ann, which I think is significant in the orientation of the discussion.

32:49

I would just like to simply say that if a person is willing to take the time to do the work that is necessary to deal with an ancient document, which is what the

32:59

Bible is, the supposed contradictions and things that have just been brought up can be dealt with.

33:06

You do not have to turn your brain off to do so. You have to, instead, ignore a vast mountain of evidence, a vast mountain of research to make some of the statements that are made in reference to the

33:18

Bible. People call up all the time and make the most half -baked references to the

33:24

Bible, and yet when you ask them, have you ever read it? Well, I've read parts of it. You mean you don't really know much about it then?

33:30

It would be like me, have you ever read or heard of Goethe's Faust? It would be like me attacking

33:36

Faust when I've read two chapters of it and only in English. It was written in German. If you're going to deal with it, learn

33:41

German. Read with it in its original languages. Don't depend on somebody's translation. The idea that there are so many Bibles.

33:47

What do you mean there are so many Bibles? That's not true. There's one Bible. It was written in Hebrew. It was written in Greek. There's one

33:52

Bible. You have a lot of translations, but that's what you're dealing with. To bring these points up,

33:57

I think, really demonstrates that some people are not being fair in their statements.

34:02

All right. Let's go to our callers. One quick one. Do you support Pat Robertson as a possible contender for the presidency of the

34:08

United States? I believe Pat Robertson has every single right to run for the presidency of the United States. I didn't ask you that.

34:13

I asked you would you support him. I haven't even taken the time to. Do you like the idea of Pat Robertson being president of the

34:20

United States? Like I said, that's a political decision. Yeah, sure, if he wants to be. If he can muster the electorate.

34:26

But I'm not going to say I'm going to vote for him. I don't know. Okay. That's a typical Hubert Humphrey -esque type of answer.

34:33

Let's go to Dan. Where are you from, Dan? New River. All right. Go ahead. I'd like to ask a question.

34:39

To be a fundamentalist, you said you had to believe in the Trinity? Yes. How about immortal soul?

34:49

When you understand it in the way the Bible presents it. There's no presentation of the immortal soul in the Bible, but I want to go on.

34:56

How about Easter? Excuse me? Easter. What do you mean, Easter? Do fundamentalists believe in Easter?

35:05

Well, since Easter is not even in the Bible, since we're only talking about the resurrection. But it is in the Bible. Easter is in the

35:11

Old Testament. Easter? Easter is. Astaroth is what you're talking about.

35:16

Easter. Easter is mentioned under the term. What is the point you're getting at? Well, I'll get the point.

35:22

It's that fundamentalism is not fundamentalism. First of all, there's no such mention of Trinity in the

35:28

Bible. No, there isn't. There isn't. Of course not. The only time it was added was later by the

35:35

Latin Vulgate. Sir, sir, sir, can I answer one point at a time? Sure, go ahead. First of all, of course the word

35:41

Trinity is not in the Bible. I never said it was. But it is an accurate term that reflects an accurate teaching in reference to the fact the

35:49

Bible teaches there's one true God and it calls the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, God. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Now, sir, let me finish my point.

35:57

The term Trinity was first used in approximately 180 A .D., not even in really that sense.

36:03

It is a Latin term, and so we are not talking about you have to use the word

36:10

Trinity. Okay, I agree with that. We're talking about the acceptance of the biblical doctrine of Trinity. The principle of Trinity is not mentioned in the

36:16

Bible. The word is not mentioned. All right, we're nitpicking here, Dan. No, no, no, this is very important because I'm saying that they're not fundamentalists.

36:23

What is the point? Because a fundamentalist believes in the inherent word of God. And, first of all, Easter is a word, a

36:32

Phoenician word originally, called Ishtar, which is a pagan fertility goddess.

36:38

Okay? And it's a pagan holiday.

36:45

Passover is the proper holiday. Fine, what about it? Well, how come it's not celebrated?

36:51

Also, well, do you believe in a mortal soul? Sir, you're not making a whole lot of sense here.

36:57

I don't think so either. I don't know what point you're driving at, Dan. I'm trying to drive at the fundamentalism is not true fundamentalism by its own definition.

37:04

You're saying it's not religion? Is that what you're saying? No, I'm saying that he's not. He's saying that our beliefs of fundamentalists are not

37:12

Bible -based, such as the idea that man continues to exist after death.

37:17

And I don't think that I can tell by looking at Bob that he's not interested in my spending the next 20 minutes giving you the biblical basis for that belief, and so I leave that up to Bob.

37:27

All right. Ann, I want you to jump in here as well. I want to get some points from you as to what you've heard so far.

37:32

Well, I understand his point. I do understand what Dan is saying, because there are certain what we would call sub -fundamentalist religions that are even more fundamentalist in their

37:46

Bible teachings and would not agree that Sunday is the

37:51

Sabbath. They would worship either Friday or Saturday. There are a lot of variants, and they are legitimate religions, and they are as fundamentalist as Jim claims to be, but they are in a situation where they consider themselves totally right.

38:08

Jim considers his definition of fundamentalism totally right. Could you identify some of those groups for us? You have to have a certain plural attitude in America.

38:16

Could you identify some of those groups for us? I think it would help. I would probably list

38:22

Jehovah's Witnesses as a sub -fundamentalist group. You would say they're fundamentalists. In their own way. I cannot classify.

38:27

Okay, so again, it's a completely different definition of fundamentalism. Completely in total. Let me try to bring this.

38:33

What you're trying, Jim, you're a very slick character, I will give you that much, but what you're trying to say is if you sidestep and state that they are not fundamentalists because of this, that, and the other, you are setting yourself up as judge, jury, executioner, and God in this mission.

38:48

I would not ever presume to define another person's religion and determine whether or not that is the appropriate way to do it, whether it's totally fundamentalist.

39:00

If they feel it is fundamentalist, if they feel that they have that Bible principle back, then it is fundamentalist to them. I know Jehovah's Witnesses backwards and forwards, and they do not claim to be fundamentalists.

39:08

They'd be very offended. Let me ask a question that can be directed to both of you because of perceptions.

39:15

What is your perception of the Roman Catholic Church? My perception of the

39:20

Roman Catholic Church? Yes, as a fundamentalist. The Roman Catholic Church is a structure, an organization, that has gone beyond biblical

39:27

Christianity, that found its roots were way back in Christianity, but it began mainly when

39:35

Constantine just baptized everybody, and you're sort of born into it. That is not the biblical viewpoint of what

39:41

Christianity is. Can a Roman Catholic gain salvation if this is true, if they have deviated from what you perceive to be the basic precepts of the

39:48

Bible? Anyone can gain salvation as long as their faith is in Jesus Christ. But if a person...

39:54

But Catholics don't believe in born -again principles. Now, if they're not born again, you're saying that they're not going to gain salvation.

39:59

I think a number of Catholics would disagree with you, but I would say doctrinally you're probably representing at least one view of Roman Catholicism.

40:07

Does this cause any problems with some of the people in your organization, Ann? Do they have this perception or this guilt about other religions?

40:17

There's always that perception. Not only that, but I want to jump in. I myself was raised

40:22

Catholic before I went into what would be classified as the Jesus Freak Movement. I would have to say there's a definite fundamentalist subgroup within Catholicism.

40:33

It's interesting to me, and we have proved this out time and time again, nationally with the people that come to us.

40:40

The people who were converted into what would be classified as ultra -fundamentalist or fundamentalist religions, over 70 % of those people that were targeted and did that jump and then left and came to us were ex -Catholics or people who had been

40:55

Catholic or people who had been Jewish. And those are the most targeted of the groups nationally, especially the young Catholics and the young Jews, because you reach them at a point in their life where they're already going through a great deal of struggle, especially if they're teenagers going into their early 20s.

41:11

And for some fundamentalists, there is a smug sanctimony, a sense of satisfaction that says,

41:18

I've made extra brownie points with Jesus because I've saved a Catholic, I've saved a

41:23

Jew. And I don't know if it's part of their real outreach to the Jewish and the

41:29

Catholic faith or if it's just another propagation of their smug attitudes about their own personal views of religion.

41:37

Okay, hold your points right there because we have to take your perceptions of fundamentalism, comfortable, uncomfortable with it.

41:43

I'd like to hear from you. Right now, let's talk with Leslie from Tempe. Hi. Hi there. I would like to agree with Ann.

41:52

I think that the service that she's providing is a much needed service. Are you a former fundamentalist,

41:59

Leslie? I would say, I've always referred to it as being involved in a cult because I got involved with a heavily fundamentalist church.

42:11

And I was really unhappy and I suffered a lot of mental anguish and confusion afterwards.

42:20

And I only wish there had been a group like Ann's that I could have talked to at the time.

42:27

What are some of the things that upset you that caused you this anguish, please? The main thing was that the head of this church, the self -proclaimed head of this church, literally told me that I would be condemned for the rest of my life.

42:50

I mean, I was condemned. There was no coming back. I was going to hell. Did you have any guilt sexually?

42:57

Pardon me? Did you have any sexual guilt? Well, that was at a time in my life when

43:03

I was moving into adulthood and I wasn't real clear on my place in life anyway.

43:10

And so I don't think I was, you know, my sexuality wasn't really clear. The loneliness in many cases, they have totally lost all familial contact.

43:23

Mom and dad will turn against them. The brothers and sisters will turn against them. And they are left just awash in a sea of emotion with no one to contact because you can't go to a psychologist and explain this.

43:34

You can't go to a psychiatrist and explain this unless they've been through a similar experience because the first response you hear is, how could you, an intelligent person, let people do this to you?

43:44

And how, you know, just, I've heard people say this, just don't be depressed. You know, they've got a lot of pat answers, but they don't appreciate the loss.

43:53

They don't appreciate that completely disjointed situation in your life. And, you know, my heart goes out to Leslie because I hear in her voice a certain amount of pain that I hear morning, noon, and night.

44:05

You know, I just wanted to state to Jim, I don't know if he's being paid by Alvin Omega Ministries, but this is almost for me a ministerial outreach.

44:14

I pick up the pieces of people's lives who have been destroyed by people who do work in the name of God and are probably more devil filled or doing the work that, you know,

44:24

Jim would be trying to fight against than 90 % of the people I see in the ministry today.

44:30

I am unpaid by Fundamentalist Anonymous. This is a total volunteer occupation for me.

44:36

This has always been a cash outflow situation. We are not out like a lot of organizations to pull in a lot of money, to build a lot of worship houses, to do a lot of things, to promote ourselves personally.

44:49

It is almost all a volunteer basis thing because this is an issue that matters a great deal to us.

44:54

And for those of us who've been through the experience, you know, it's very cathartic. It's very helpful to talk about it.

45:01

It's a very purging experience. I've seen literally people's lives changed after two or three meetings just by having an outreach to talk to people who've been through the same situation, who aren't going to criticize, who aren't going to ridicule, who will reach out to you for the first time instead of this phony, vacuous, facile love mask that a lot of Christians wear.

45:25

You know, we truly care and that is what makes us work. Well, I don't have time between now and the break to answer everything you brought up there.

45:35

First of all, I would say that it is anti -fundamentalist, and again I am using the historical, factual definition of it rather than the general one, for a pastor to set himself up in the way that whatever group you're talking about, and since you didn't give the name,

45:53

I can't tell who it was, but whoever they talked about, a Christian pastor has no biblical right to set himself up in a situation where he receives worship or homage or that type of authority to do that.

46:09

And let's go right back to our callers right now, and Ann, if anything's said, I want you to jump right in, okay?

46:15

Okay. Let's talk with Marge from Phoenix. Good morning. Good morning. Let me preface my remarks by saying that I am a

46:22

Christian and I never thought any topic would cause me to call a radio program, but here

46:28

I am. As a Christian, I want to make two points to explain to you why

46:33

I would be very fearful of voting for someone like Pat Robertson and any of these fundamentalist camps.

46:43

Two things I want to bring up. My mother is a music teacher. She's a 64 -year -old typical sweet little old lady.

46:52

Last year, she was hired to teach music by a Southern Baptist Junior College in Rome, Georgia.

47:00

Berry College? I'm sorry? Berry College? No, it was called Truett McConnell College. Oh, I know. Okay, I know it.

47:06

Go ahead. In Rome, Georgia. Yeah. Well, midway in the first semester, they found out that my mother was a

47:14

Christian scientist and they fired her on the spot. Bad enough. No questions asked.

47:20

Nothing. Just fired her. Several of the students protested, nine of them to be exact, protested that she was fired.

47:30

And the nine students, to the number, were expelled. Because she was a

47:38

Christian scientist? Because she was a Christian scientist. Leaving no room for any difference whatsoever.

47:46

Wait a minute. She wasn't responsible for teaching any doctrine. She was just teaching music.

47:51

Is that correct? Exactly. And it was only by error, a comment made by my aunt, that they found out that she was a

47:59

Christian scientist. But that very day, they fired her. And then because some of the students complained and protested, they were expelled.

48:11

Does that sound realistic, Jim? Well, a few months ago, a gentleman who is a born -again believer who was seeking tenure at an

48:21

East Coast college was denied tenure and fired for believing in creationism.

48:28

And so, yes, discrimination takes place on both sides, and that's unfortunate. All right. Well, that is unfortunate.

48:34

Unfortunate, and it happens all too often. And we have situations here in the Dallas area where a gentleman of the

48:41

Jewish faith was a member of the local volunteer fire department.

48:49

He was not a paid member. He was not getting any money or remuneration. He was doing that voluntarily. And he was blocked from continuing in the organization because he refused to become born again.

49:00

And he was forced literally out of the organization. And it was such a small town that it became an instant topic of discussion for everyone.

49:13

And that's the problem within certain fundamentalist churches. If they're in a small town and they have a great deal of control, if you come within any disagreement within the church, your name, your life, your livelihood, your alleged sins become the town's main subject.

49:30

And that's a real problem. Don't lay that on the foot of fundamentalism. I'm not saying that all fundamentalists do that,

49:36

James. Shunning is part of the Jehovah's Witness. Shunning is part of the Amish and the Mennonites as well.

49:42

So I don't think it's fair to say that just the fundamentalists do this. I would imagine that most religions do it.

49:48

And let me point out something else, too. You don't have to be religious to do that. I mean, just two days ago on this program,

49:54

I heard an atheist call a fundamentalist who gave him no reason to do so a slithering worm, a blithering idiot, and a number of other expletives that he was careful, all of them got in the air.

50:06

To say that is something that is wrong with fundamentalism. Yes, people who claim to be fundamentalists will do things wrong.

50:14

Is there a general policy among fundamentalists, and I assume they're most all Baptists, right?

50:20

No. Is that not true? That's not true at all. In fact, while in the scope of our discussion today, we are leaning towards what we would classify as fundamentalist

50:31

Christians. There are fundamentalist Jews. We have been contacted by fundamentalist Buddhists.

50:37

Even Jim would probably find this amusing to know that there's been an offshoot within the atheist organization, and now there's a group that classifies themselves as fundamentalist atheists and mainline atheists.

50:48

So fundamentalism is more of a mindset that's a working structural group of rules and thoughts that transfers over to several religions or several mindsets.

51:01

It's a black and white, right and wrong. These are the correct ways to behave. This is not mindset.

51:07

I think you've just given a key to maybe a little bit of understanding here. She's just mentioned that her definition of fundamentalism would include

51:16

Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, atheists, anyone who is in a mindset situation that does not allow them to examine any other viewpoint.

51:26

Would you agree that fundamentalists really aren't allowed to examine another viewpoint? Not all fundamentalists, but I agree that there's a certain very controlled group within fundamentalism that says this is it and stop thinking.

51:38

For my sister who became Pentecostal, she had all the answers. She had, you know, brother said this was it, brother said that was it, and she never had to think again.

51:49

Not all fundamentalists are like that, and believe me, I am not anti -fundamentalist. I'm married into an ultra -fundamentalist

51:56

Baptist family. My two brother -in -laws are ministers. My father -in -law is a deacon in a church. My mother -in -law owns a charismatic

52:03

Baptist bookstore. We continue to have dinner. We do all those little family things.

52:08

We disagree on certain points, but they do not cast me out, nor do I turn my back on them.

52:14

We have agreed to disagree, but unfortunately, many people cannot work in those same structures.

52:20

They're intolerant of religious difference, and that's the problem. Okay, then, Ann, please, when you, you know, if you write your materials or you appear on talk programs or something, please define the fact that when you are discussing fundamentalism, you are not discussing theology.

52:37

You are not discussing what is truly historically fundamentalism. You are talking about a mindset that you've got atheists that are fundamentalists, in using your term, that are closed -minded, and I know a lot of those.

52:50

You've got people from every background in the world. I'm discussing Christian fundamentalism in a theological realm.

52:56

You're discussing a mindset, we're missing each other like ships in the night. Hopefully they miss each other in the night. And the reason is, you know,

53:03

I tried to define what I was talking about. I'm a fundamentalist, but I do not believe that I am what you're talking about.

53:10

I do, you know, I do look at other people's viewpoints, and I can be tolerant of other viewpoints.

53:17

Do you look down your nose at me, Jim, because I do not participate in organized religion? No, and I want to point something out.

53:23

Because what I'm driving at is, do you have a policy in your belief of going forth and teaching all nations and baptizing them in the name of...

53:31

The Son, Holy Spirit, Matthew, John... That means that you are compelled to go out and try to get people to see your way of things.

53:38

Let me define something for you, and this is important to me. There's a vast difference, in my opinion, and you can just call it my opinion if you like, but there's a vast difference between being involved in the outward trappings of organized religion and being a

53:54

Christian. You can be very confused and thinking, well, I did this, I did this, I did this, I did this, that must mean

53:59

I'm a Christian. No, it doesn't. There is a vast difference. Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with Jesus Christ.

54:06

And many people are looking at the outward trappings... Do you feel compelled to go to someone who is not a

54:12

Christian, or not born again, and try to induce him to do so? I feel compelled to go to all people and proclaim to them the good news.

54:20

Even if they don't want your imposition? If they don't want my imposition, they'll tell me, and they have the perfect right to say bye -bye, and I go bye -bye.

54:28

All right, any response to that, Ann? Well, while it is very well and good to claim that, you know,

54:34

Jim personally doesn't, and the people he has affiliated do not try to impose their views, do not try to impose their religion.

54:42

If you saw two weeks ago, I don't think it was today, I think it was two weeks ago,

54:47

I don't have the date in front of me. On Nightline, we had Tim LaHaye, a very prolific

54:54

Christian writer, a minister in his own right, a man who runs one of the largest ministerial groups, a man who is married to a woman who also is a prolific writer and has great influence in the fundamentalist

55:05

Christian community, stated on national television that anyone who was not a true

55:11

Bible -believing, born -again Christian, i .e. all secular humanists, and the exact quote, direct quote was,

55:17

I believe that secular humanists should be barred from political office because under our Constitution, they cannot appreciate and understand and have a working relationship with the

55:27

Constitution because we are a Christ -like nation, and they should be barred from office. That was on the television for the whole world to see.

55:35

Now, Jim may be a very tolerant Christian, and Jim may be someone who is willing to look forward and take no for an answer, but people like Mr.

55:44

LaHaye are not. People who get in political office under the trappings of being a

55:49

Christian, like Guy Vanderjagt in Michigan, force their own political views, not the views of the people, not the people that voted him in office, but his own personal views, and he has proudly stated this.

56:03

That's the people I'm concerned about. I am not out to close down the churches. I am not even suggesting taxing the churches.

56:10

I am saying we should have a live -and -let -live mentality working here and work from a framework of understanding, not you did this, we did that, us -and -we mentalities of what kept the world in constant turmoil since the beginning of time.

56:26

We need to have a moment where we can agree that, yes, some people are holding up God and doing very ungodly things.

56:34

Yes, some people are being hurt in the name of God. Those people need help. That's why I'm there.

56:40

I'm not trying to be anti -fundamentalist. All right. Let's take a call quickly, and we'll talk with Tony from Tempe.

56:46

How you doing? Thank you for waiting, Tony. Thank you. Jim? Yes, sir. Yes, I see.

56:52

I listened to you not too long ago when you were debating someone else on the air, and you did a wonderful job.

56:58

Thank you. It was on KFYI, and I called up, and I'm just glad that you're on the show again and we have someone who really represents our faith.

57:08

They're talking about giving me a box here at the station, you know. Right. That'd be great. I'd love it. First of all,

57:15

I just wanted to make a comment. There's so much to comment about, but I happened to watch

57:20

Backsliders Anonymous when they were on Phil Donahue's show a while back, and I got to witness that and listen to some of the representatives and some people that are part of that organization.

57:34

And the things that they're talking about, like loneliness, depression, and guilt that they've gone through after leaving the church or the association they were with, it is all symptoms of what a

57:46

Christian would call a backslider, someone who fell away from the Lord, someone who had a relationship or really came into the knowledge of Jesus Christ, but for some reason or another turned their back.

57:57

And that's the thing that happens. That guilt is a condemnation, is a conviction that they're not right with their

58:03

God. Oh, brother. I think it's really sad that you claim to be a Christian and here you're automatically labeled.

58:09

Well, you know what? You're going Backsliders Anonymous. First, let me tell you, on our board here in Dallas, we have two ministers on our local contact committee.

58:19

Well, they're not Christians. We have nuns, we have counselors, and they are all Christians. I will admit that there are atheists in our group.

58:26

I will admit there are agnostics in our group. But we have 75 % of the local group is

58:32

Bible -believing Christians. And to suggest that we are Backsliders is to show your own prejudice.

58:38

Okay, Ann, let Tony have a... Excuse me, Ann. Don't even suggest that the ministers that you have involved in your organization are born -again,

58:46

Bible -believing Christians because there is no way on God's green earth that they could be Christians. You might have some ministers...

58:52

Didn't the Bible say, Judge not, and ye shall not judge? Yeah, I was just about to say the same thing. Aren't you making a hell of a presumption there,

58:57

Tony? No, I have a presumption. First, you're stating that you are more Christian than them in your own verbiage there because you have determined that they are not as Christian as you are.

59:08

They could not be and agree with us. Well, no, I know, I know, I know. And then you're stating that they are not good people because, obviously, if they are...

59:16

Oh, they might be wonderful people, but that doesn't make them Christian. I'm sure Jim would agree. Let me ask you a question.

59:22

Let me ask you a question. Let's talk about Jimmy Swaggart's quote about Mother Teresa. No, let's not talk about Jimmy Swaggart.

59:28

No, no, no, no. Come on, one at a time here. Go ahead, Ann. Would you state that Mother Teresa is a Christian? No, no, let's not get into all these issues here.

59:36

Answer the question, Tony. Answer the question. It was put to you. Is Mother Teresa a Christian? I don't really know.

59:42

But all I know is that someone... But you've determined that the people that I'm affiliated with are not. That's right. That's right. It's just perfect using discernment, using wise wisdom.

59:51

Oh, someone is going to be involved. No, listen. See, what you're discussing here, what you're looking at is what

59:58

Jesus said. Jesus said that unless you're born again, you're going to die and go to a devil's hell.

01:00:04

And that's the Bible, and that's what we believe, and that's what we know. That's a fairy tale. You don't have to... That's a fairy tale.

01:00:10

Hold on. Wait a minute. Could I sort of jump in here? Jump in here. Yeah, jump in here.

01:00:15

All right. Jump in, Jim. Let me attempt to make some sense out of all of this.

01:00:23

First of all, when we're talking about this organization, I cannot make,

01:00:30

Tony, confident assertions about who these people are because to be perfectly honest with you, I've never run into them here in the

01:00:36

Valley. I don't even think there is a local contact person. Is there? I did listen to them.

01:00:42

I'm still down here. Well, I think it's called Fundamentalists Anonymous, not Backsliders Anonymous.

01:00:48

You've got to realize that these two people are coming from completely and totally different viewpoints.

01:00:55

And one thing that the secular world does not seem to understand in reference to Christianity is that Christianity makes a very exclusivistic claim.

01:01:04

Now, making exclusivistic claims in today's world is very unpopular. Now, of course, when you're an atheist, you can make an exclusivistic claim, but that's popular, so that's okay.

01:01:13

But when you're a Christian, you can't make an exclusivistic claim, like Jesus did, and say, I am the way, the truth, and the life.

01:01:20

People don't like that. That is, for some reason, very closed -minded and backwards. Whereas you can make very exclusivistic claims as long as you're, for some reason, promoting a humanist -type doctrine.

01:01:34

So I think there's a little bit of a problem there. I think a lot of this has to do with semantics.

01:01:40

I think, Tony, you might be wise to hold off judging those ministers until you get a chance to talk to them.

01:01:46

Let me ask Tony a question. Do you believe that Jonah was swallowed by a whale? Sure do. I do, too. What a bunch of fairytales.

01:01:53

A man swallowed by a whale and then comes back after three days? Now, just wait a minute.

01:01:59

Go ahead, Tony. Bob, just because you don't believe it doesn't make it a fairytale. I know a biological fact that if you're swallowed by a whale, you're going to decompose, you're going to die, and you're not going to come back in three days and say,

01:02:12

See you later, whale. See you later, man. First of all, Tony, Tony, let me. First of all, it wasn't a whale.

01:02:18

The Hebrew term does not identify it. A shark, whatever you want to call it. Wait a minute. You naturally reject the miraculous.

01:02:26

That's right. I majored in biology. I know all about that, all the stuff you were just talking about.

01:02:31

You naturally reject the miraculous. You must go back and say, if the theistic position is correct, if there is a

01:02:38

God, could He do it? Not approach it from the direction you're doing it. Exactly. I think it's a fairytale.

01:02:45

Jonah was not swallowed by a whale or a fish or anything else for that matter, and he didn't come back in three days. Could God have done it?

01:02:51

No, I don't believe that anybody can go into a whale and then come out in three days. It's a fairytale.

01:02:57

So in other words, you don't believe in a God who has control over the laws that He set up then. Hey, listen. Let's go back to the basics.

01:03:03

I don't believe it. Bob, can I say something? Yes, Tony. See, that's why the Bible says that a man without the

01:03:09

Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

01:03:17

See, the Bible says that there is a veil over the mind of the unbeliever that until he believes in Jesus Christ and accepts

01:03:25

Him as the Lord of his life, and that veil is torn down, that his mind, his spiritual eye is blinded to the truth.

01:03:32

Let me say something. What we have here going is a situation of exclusivity and religion.

01:03:38

That's right. That's Christianity. That's Christianity. We could say that the Koran to millions upon millions upon millions of people, and that is

01:03:47

Christianity, is the chosen book. Let me finish. The chosen book is God's inerrant work.

01:03:54

Christianity is the non -believers to them. We have Buddhists who believe that their book and their

01:04:00

God is everything to them, is exactly inerrant, and everyone else is a non -believer. So basically, we have several different major religions who have several different mindsets that say we are the only way, we are the only truth, this is

01:04:17

God, as is everything else, is not true. And that in itself, while you may feel it's appropriate thinking, it's not appropriate thinking in our view.

01:04:27

We in America are a country that is religious freedom as well as religion from freedom.

01:04:34

Let me say something here. Most of these discussions can never get anywhere for a very simple reason, and that is we haven't started with the basics.

01:04:44

If you start from the supposition, and we could debate this, we could debate atheism if you wanted to.

01:04:50

If you start with a supposition that is theistic, i .e. that a God who is a personal being exists, not just deism or atheism or anything like that, but if you start from there.

01:05:00

If you don't start from there, the rest of this makes absolutely no sense at all. So if we start with the basics, God exists. And if we examine the scriptures, and I would challenge anyone to do that.

01:05:10

I would challenge, if there's someone out there that thinks that we don't know what the Bible originally said, or something like that, fine, deal with it from there.

01:05:17

Once you've got the basics down, you can discuss these things. You can compare it with the Quran. You can compare the textual histories.

01:05:23

You can compare the teachings. All those things can happen, but you can't do it without the basics down first. Can you discuss calculus without knowing addition,

01:05:30

Bob? No, of course you can't. But I would maintain that most of what you're talking about are fairy tales that are based on...

01:05:40

Wait a minute, wait a minute, Tony. Hold on just here. Just hold on a second. It's fairy tales enabling man to cope with his mortality.

01:05:48

Man cannot cope with oblivion. So man has created this panacea, these utopias, these heavens and hells, guilt, punishment, resurrection, everlasting life, and the fact of the matter is you're dead.

01:06:04

What? Bob, Jesus Christ was a real person who lived on this earth almost 2 ,000 years ago.

01:06:10

Peter, Paul, and all the apostles are real live people. No. And I'm a real live person who's experienced.

01:06:15

They might have been real live people, but I question the divinity, okay? I don't know. I don't know why he doesn't come back and get on talk shows.

01:06:22

We're going to have to leave at that point. Because people do not think for themselves. They blindly follow these leaders.

01:06:31

As a matter of fact, if you'll have noticed in the paper, all of the religion -related child abuses, have you ever noticed that?

01:06:40

Yeah, religion is a terrible thing. That's why I talked about Christianity. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. I said religion is a terrible thing.

01:06:45

That's why I talked about Christianity. Well, no, no, no. You know what I mean, though. What I am saying is these different cults and things, how dangerous they can be.

01:06:55

Yeah, what was the name of that guy that was beating up on children and calling it discipline? Dadney or Dadney or something like that?

01:07:01

Right, that's what I'm saying. People will not think for themselves. Now, is there any kind of an education program we could install for things like that?

01:07:11

We worry about drugs, the education of drugs. What about education of religion?

01:07:17

Well, let me respond to that first of all by saying that, again, you are using a, I would say, false definition and saying

01:07:24

I'm a fundamentalist. I don't think for themselves. I'm a fundamentalist. I think for myself. Ask my pastor if I think for myself.

01:07:29

I'm not talking about you. I'm aware of that. So what I'm trying to point out is that there are people, religious or non -religious, who do a lot of weird and strange things and don't think for themselves.

01:07:39

Personally, I think that someone who would deny, for example, the veracity of the New Testament record isn't looking at the issues either.

01:07:46

They're not thinking for themselves. They're listening to what somebody else said about it. Fine. That's wrong for anyone no matter what their religious orientation might be.

01:07:55

And so to confound that and say, see, fundamentalism breeds this. I think liberalism breeds that.

01:08:02

Am I going to start a group called Liberals Anonymous? I mean, I think there's just as much a need for someone who's coming out of liberalism and it's stilted thought as there is for someone coming out of fundamentalism.

01:08:11

What makes you think I'm not a fundamentalist? I didn't say that you weren't. Well, I mean, you imply that I'm not.

01:08:18

Well, let's put it this way. The comment that I see is they don't think for themselves and when it's basically they,

01:08:24

I would probably be referring to myself because that's the topic today. No, no, no, no. You have a chip on your shoulder there.

01:08:29

Yeah, it's a chip on his shoulder and semantics. As long as semantics are the main aspect of the debate, you know, he can worm out of the comments.

01:08:38

I'm not worming out of anything yet. But it is true that there are many people who get into religion just as easily as there are true that there are many people who are in secular society who would rather have all the thinking, all the processing, all of the information absorbed by and decided upon by others.

01:08:56

There are many people who are very gullible. It is intensified by the religious experience for many because they get a very charismatic, very forceful leader who will promise and state and declare that the

01:09:11

Bible says this and this and this. If they do not go about researching that themselves, they are at fault and they are wrong.

01:09:19

I agree. But they still behave that way and they allow things to be done in the name of God.

01:09:26

There are situations now we have a cult -like religion. I am not saying that they are truly fundamentalist, but a cult -like.

01:09:33

The definition of cult is one who prays through or decides that another is the divine, born -again

01:09:40

Christian or divine. You know, he is the only way. That's what makes monism a cult.

01:09:46

That's what makes Scientology a cult. That's what makes the religion up in Michigan, the House of Judah, where the state moved in and took 29 children.

01:09:55

You know, where people literally beat their children almost to death. Some of the more ardent and very small fundamentalist offshoot churches get into the child beating as in they spare the rod and spoil the child mentality.

01:10:07

In American society today, we have heard from a lot of fundamentalists who claim that it's liberalism, it's pornography, it's the secular humanists, it's this and that and the other for an increase in child abuse, an increase in sexual abuse, an increase in rape.

01:10:23

Rape has always been there. Child abuse has always been there. White beating has always been there.

01:10:28

These situations have continued on for years and years, but they are more visible. They are more identified.

01:10:36

We no longer consider our children chattel. We no longer look upon a marriage as whatever goes within the marriage is perfectly okay if he wants to beat her, if he wants to rape her, fine, as long as he's the man and she's the woman, that's the way it's supposed to be.

01:10:49

Are you saying that is a fundamentalist viewpoint? I am not saying that fundamentalism is the excuse for that. What I am saying is that it is a modern part of society that the media is more aware, that information is disseminated more, but I resent the fact that some fundamentalists state that it is secular humanism, that it's people who are not allegedly born again in their mindset that are causing this because it is something that goes on.

01:11:14

And some people use religion to cover their sins and their ills. And I have heard of ministers who have molested their children.

01:11:21

Let me ask you a question. I have heard of ministers who stand up in pulpits on Sunday and preach and testify what moral

01:11:28

Christians they are and then go home and beat their wives to a pulp. One of them is my neighbor.

01:11:33

So you judge fundamentalism on the basis of those people? No. So if I judged atheism on the basis of the guy

01:11:39

I heard here on the station, then I just completely reject atheism and never look at anything it said because of that. Is that what you're saying? I hope not.

01:11:44

And I know you're going to say no, but I want to bring it out that what you're talking about is you're talking about the exceptions to the rule, the wild, crazy cases that you can find if you talk about anyone.

01:11:54

It would be nice if it was the exceptions to the rule, Jim. But unfortunately, it would be nice if it was the exceptions to the rule, Jim. Oh, so most fundamentalists beat their wives?

01:12:00

The way American religion is today and the way that people use religion as a tool and a possession kick and a power trip for many people is to say that there is a widespread, it is not one in two cases here and three in four cases here.

01:12:16

It is widespread through every community in this nation. And what you're saying then is that fundamentalism fosters wife -beating?

01:12:22

No, I am not saying that. You are using a semantics term there. I am saying that many men legitimize their wife -beating through the

01:12:30

Bible. Does that make the Bible wrong that someone uses it out of context?

01:12:35

No, I am not. Yes, I don't think that you should beat your wife and I don't think that there is any Bible quote that says you should. I don't believe that men should have in some spots in the

01:12:43

Old Testament they discussed divorce and how to do it. I don't believe that a man has the right to divorce a woman and a woman doesn't.

01:12:50

I don't believe that a parent has the right to beat their child into submission in the name of God. If that makes me a non -Christian in your terms well then

01:12:59

I'm real thankful I never said that. I am as Christian as you are. I may not be as fundamentalist as you are.

01:13:06

And let me just point something out. I would like to make sure that the listening audience can understand that to fault fundamentalism for someone taking a

01:13:16

Bible verse and using it to support whatever immoral or ridiculous activity they might want to engage in no more invalidates the

01:13:25

Bible or fundamentalism than... I mean that is completely and totally illogical.

01:13:32

There is no logical connection there. It may sound good but it makes no logical connection whatsoever. I mean

01:13:37

I can go take a history book and pull something out of that and say this is my source and go do something and that doesn't invalidate the accuracy of the history book.

01:13:44

I mean there is no logical connection between saying we've seen this for all this amount of time and these fundamentalists are doing this that and the other thing and my neighbor goes home and beats his wife.

01:13:55

I do not beat my wife. And I do believe that a person who follows fundamentalist precepts will not beat his wife.

01:14:02

Because the Bible says you are to love your wife as much as Christ loved the church.

01:14:08

Now that means I don't beat her. Now you know what all this comes back to is that people when they misuse the

01:14:16

Bible don't understand that a fundamentalist teaches that you have to interpret in its context in its historical context in its original language and all the rest of that stuff and that is a dying art.

01:14:25

There aren't too many people who do that anymore. It also says in the Bible, blessed are the peacemaker, but I don't see any evidence of that in Northern Ireland or in Beirut where Christians are beating each other to death.

01:14:34

Come on Bob. What do you mean come on Bob? That's just simply a...

01:14:39

Do you believe that the Bible would say that because someone joins a group that is an army that happens to wear the name

01:14:46

Christian they become a Christian? You've got Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. Are they

01:14:51

Christians? Fine. Are they Christians? If they're shooting each other dead I'd probably say no. That's what's so dangerous about religion

01:14:57

Bob is that you're born into it and hence you've got this name and you think you are. Well that's why I've gotten out of it. Now I have a different perception of it.

01:15:03

Exactly right. Do you believe Jim that God has a position on the Contras in Central America?

01:15:09

Do I believe God has a position on the Contras? No I don't. Well there are many fundamentalists including...

01:15:23

locally and have been sending money down and sending care packages down and going down and assisting the

01:15:29

Contras. Now I am not a Sandinista backer by any stretched imagination but you know to back one heinous perpetrator of violence over another and saying that God has ordained them as these chosen people is wrong and while I'm not saying that all fundamentalists do it it is being perceived as the fundamentalist support system and that is wrong.

01:15:53

There is the important thing perception is being perceived as... we had Rick Humbart in town over the weekend doing a speech at the

01:16:00

Word of Faith which I'm sure you're familiar with a huge church a massive church and he was stating that he was there to raise money to go down and convert the communists and also to fight the communists in Brazil.

01:16:14

Now I don't want to know what kind of assistance he's giving to the alleged Christians in that community because this is the same thing we buy guns for people in the name of God we buy ammo we buy support medicine to keep the war going in the name of God and that's the real problem and that's the visual image that people get and that's the image the media is purporting because that's what's happening.

01:16:39

Alright Dan we're going to take a break right now. I want to talk with Jim from Phoenix. Good morning Jim. Hi. I really appreciate you having these people on your show and the main thing

01:16:49

Jim already brought it up and I think the main thing is that these two different people are not really working against each other.

01:16:58

What's going on is that she is helping people who are coming out of either cults or organized religions or people who are teaching things that are in error and Jim is talking about a fundamentalist

01:17:22

Christian which probably has nothing to do with the people that Anne is helping out.

01:17:33

Well for one thing I came out of a cult that was here in Phoenix and the things that we were taught finally ended up to where we were up in Payson marching around a dead man trying to raise him from the dead and these were all backed up by scriptures out of context and they were not covered by Greek.

01:18:00

Well I don't believe that even Jim would espouse the view that you can bring somebody back to life.

01:18:08

Well of course not but they were all taken out of context and they were all in the Bible and they were all in the Another thing

01:18:14

I was wondering Anne, what denomination are the ministers in your association there?

01:18:21

We have Southern Baptists, we have Methodists, we have a couple

01:18:27

Episcopals, we have people on our national board who are theologians involved with Southern Methodist University and several other churches in the

01:18:38

East. We have people who are in the more mainstream religions.

01:18:47

Not necessarily the ultra fundamentalists. Well let me ask you a question then, are they redirecting these people back into a relationship with Christ or are they directing them into atheism?

01:18:58

No, not by any stretch of the imagination. We are not promoting atheism.

01:19:04

We are there to pick up the pieces of their lives, help them deal with the pain, deal with the anger because what has happened to them is they are so angry, they cannot believe, one, that they were duped, two, that they allowed themselves to be used that way, three, that they spent that much time and effort in the cause.

01:19:21

So often what happens is they become anti -Christian, anti -God.

01:19:27

They can't even accept God as a concept let alone a being. So you are redirecting them back to Christ right?

01:19:33

Oh yes, we are trying to redirect them so that they can decide what religion they want, how much faith they want, how much dedication or devotion they can choose.

01:19:43

We try to stream them into the mainstream religions so that they don't make a lot of the same errors. But hopefully they will find a communion with faith as they see it.

01:19:54

We do not promote one theology over another, we do not promote one doctrine over another. We are not saying if you are after us go be

01:20:01

Episcopal, after us go be Methodist. We say you are a thinking, rational human being, make the decision for yourself.

01:20:08

And when you mentioned the question of directing them into a mainstream religion would you include the

01:20:13

Southern Baptist Convention in that since you mentioned the Southern Baptist Minister? I should also preface what he is a mainstream

01:20:23

Baptist. He is a member of the Southern Baptist Convention. They are not fundamentalist.

01:20:30

His church, his particular church is not fundamentalist. In the Dallas area we have four non -fundamentalist

01:20:36

Baptist churches. I would suggest them more to that aspect and they can decide later on if they want to go back into the fundamentalist religions.

01:20:46

But if we are promoting a Baptist church, I don't want to use that term, but if they ask us and they suggest we would suggest his church specifically because it is not the black and white, right and wrong, no gray area mentality that they have been experiencing before.

01:21:05

There is a lot of questions. There is a seeking. There is a search for knowledge that goes on in those churches that can't be matched in other churches in the area.

01:21:16

Real quick Ann, two fast questions. First of all, when you say black and white, are you intimating by that that I as a fundamentalist do not realize that there are areas of life that the scriptures do not lay black and white rule down upon and that we are to utilize the spirit

01:21:33

Some people do. I am not saying that you do, but I am saying that within some fundamentalist religions it is portrayed as this is the only way.

01:21:40

There is no gray area and you and I both know that there is a lot of gray area in life.

01:21:45

Well, let me just mention that anyone who has read the Bible knows, for example, Romans chapter 14 makes it very clear that there are a number of areas where to utilize the spirit of God in our life to determine how we act in a certain situation.

01:21:56

The other thing is you said you get them thinking on their own again. When you provide them with data upon which to think, do you provide them with all the data which would include...

01:22:06

Basically, I want to correct this point before you start into this. We do not promote data. We give them an option.

01:22:12

They come in, they talk about their feelings, their pain, their anger with people who have had the same sort of feelings.

01:22:20

It is the same sort of setup as AA in that it is a group meeting. We don't come in with this is the text for tonight.

01:22:26

It is more of a sharing workshop instead of a class or a session. The only thing that got me out of it was a conservative

01:22:38

Baptist pastor sat down and showed me in Greek and in context where all of these things that I had learned were wrong.

01:22:47

That was the only thing that got me out of it. It wasn't anything my wife said or anything which she tried to do.

01:22:53

She tried to help me. It didn't do any good. Only the word of God got me out of it personally.

01:23:00

Only the word of God got me out of it without having to go through the trauma of the people you were talking about go through.

01:23:08

Maybe you should try to do that kind of thing with your people. They do a lot of research.

01:23:15

A lot of us watch and read. We read the Bible and watch more religious broadcasting and monitor religious programming probably more.

01:23:25

There is almost an obsessive quality in the healing process that people go through. While it does not fit in the structure of our meetings now, we do discuss theology and we have two meetings a month where we have regular meetings and then two meetings a month where we go out to dinner and we go out and talk.

01:23:43

Quite often theology is debated at the dinners that we wouldn't do in the structure of the meetings. There even has to be an organization like Fundamentalist Anonymous.

01:23:52

I agree. I've heard words here and I've written them down. Trauma, depression, guilt, hurt, confusion.

01:24:01

To me that isn't what religion is all about. Unfortunately the truth of the matter is that the ministry is the only unlicensed, unmonitored, un -doctrined business that you can get into where you can have influence, power, a stronghold over people's lives, their emotions, their livelihood.

01:24:24

Their entire life is religion and faith. That's where you've got people by the guts.

01:24:30

When you tell them they're wrong because they didn't do things this way. When you tell them God has a secret plan for you and he's told it to me when you have people by that kind of stronghold you have an incredible influence over them.

01:24:43

I think it's tragic that there has to be an organization like this too. The thing that makes me the most angry is that the churches were not the ones who came and started this project.

01:24:54

They were not the ones who did the initial studies and the initial outreach because they should have the power and go out and police themselves and take care of their own.

01:25:05

But they aren't. I hate to quote Tammy Baker, but I will at this one point. The Christian community is the only ones who throw out their wounded.

01:25:15

That was a quote she made on her TV show. And I have to agree That wasn't original, I can guarantee you that. I watch her every week, four or five times a week, and it is true that quite often

01:25:26

Christians will turn their back in the hour of need. They can deal with the fluffing and the light, but when it gets down to the hard core, some

01:25:34

Christians will turn their back. I'm glad you put that qualifier in there. I'm not saying all

01:25:40

Christians, but any Christians are very superficial in their concern for others.

01:25:47

They'll tithe and they'll give them hundreds and hundreds of dollars in their dime, but they're not out there supporting people.

01:25:56

And that's a good point, because I've heard people call and say, well, I'm a fundamentalist, I'm a Christian, I'm a born -again,

01:26:02

I'm this, I'm that, well, I'm Judy. And that's a fact. You're an

01:26:07

American. Well, yeah. Yeah. And the golden rule is the best thing anyone can teach as far as I'm concerned, and not the going golden rule, which is anyone who has the gold makes the rules.

01:26:16

Amen. You know, well, a woman or whatever. And a woman and a child. Religion to me, it's just, it's a theory.

01:26:25

Yesterday's a theory, life's a theory. You know, it's difficult enough going around trying to be a human being on your own without people trying to cram unproven facts down my throat, you know, and in a personal opinion, there's no one on this planet who can come around and say, well, okay, there's a hereafter.

01:26:39

Because no one has ever died and come back and said, hey, Judy, I died, here I am again. It's a fact. And it's all my contention, also my contention that anyone who goes around preaching theory or what may be considered mythology, there's no way that you can prove any of it until you've died and then that's a theory.

01:27:01

So just try to practice the golden rule and I wouldn't want the likes of Pat Robertson anywhere near the

01:27:07

White House. You're headed for trouble. It's too dogmatic, it is too judgmental, it is just too damned unhealthy.

01:27:15

I'm concerned that the first thing he's going to do if he gets into office is rush to the red phone, call

01:27:21

Gorbachev off and try to heal his birthmark long distance. I don't think he has to worry about Gorbachev.

01:27:28

I think he has to worry about the Middle East. I think this has gotten a little too ridiculous to even respond to, but I'd like Well, the man did claim that through prayer he was able to divert a hurricane.

01:27:36

mention... I would like to mention... This is a man who healed bleeding gums on the

01:27:42

TV and he's accusing us of being ridiculous? I would like to mention to the caller, now that we've gotten all of one person talking one time again, that you say it's all theory.

01:27:53

I would say that if you say it's all theory you haven't done much studying and there was a person who died and did come back and so he did prove it.

01:28:00

I didn't know this person. His name is Jesus Christ. That was so doggone long ago and you weren't there,

01:28:06

Jim. Well, if you would actually examine the facts, ma 'am, you wouldn't make that statement. Jim, I read that Bible three times and you brought up one statement at least five times yourself since you've been on.

01:28:16

You said, Christ loved the church. Define the word church. It is the Greek term ecclesiae.

01:28:21

It means the called out ones who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. That sounded programmed.

01:28:27

Right. Well, that's because I've studied the subject and that's the case.

01:28:34

And you make a statement that you majored in biology. And Bible. And I'm working on my master's degree in theology.

01:28:39

And I minored in Greek. cool. Okay, okay. Now listen, when you were in anatomy class or if you've ever been around cadavers.

01:28:45

I was department fellow in anatomy and physiology and so I've taken apart many cadavers and I do not believe the old fable if that's what you're really insinuating that I would bring up.

01:28:57

No, I'm not insinuating. I'm just asking a question. Well, why would you bring that up? That automatically demonstrates to me that you question either my intelligence or my sanity.

01:29:06

One of the two. You're so defensive. It's a curiosity of mine. Curiosity of yours. It's a curiosity, right. What is the curiosity?

01:29:13

There was a bit about the Adam and Eve thing, the rib and the duck. They say that some people have actually said that man has one less rib than a woman because of the biblical account of the creation.

01:29:25

And the Adam's apple. Well, if that's your viewpoint of what fundamentalist