Precepts in Natural Theology

Okay, and I'm going live on Facebook. Okay, so our little disclaimer here, especially if anybody here is new tonight, we ask that everybody keeps themselves muted and keep your camera off during Jim's presentation.

He's going to present his, he's gonna give his lesson.

And then at the end, if you guys have any questions during his presentation or at the end, you can post your questions into the chat on Zoom.

Or if you're watching along with us on Facebook, you can post your questions for him in the Facebook comments.

And then at the end, during the live Q &A, we'll ask him those questions. So for those of you who are in Zoom after that, we'll have a time where we go off camera and you can turn on your own cameras and ask him questions at that time, if you'd like to.

So with that, let's get started. I'm Terri Kammerzell here with Creation Fellowship Santee for our last virtually their fellowship of 2021.

We're a group of friends bound by our common agreement that the creation account as told in Genesis is a true depiction of how

God created the universe and all life from nothing in just six days a few thousand years ago.

We've been meeting most Thursday nights here on Zoom since June of 2020. We've been blessed with presentations by pastors, teachers, doctors, cartoonists, scientists, apologists, prophecy speakers, and all around smarty pants people who love the

Lord and have a message to share. You can find most of our past videos by searching for Creation Fellowship Santee, that's

S -A -N -T -E -E on YouTube. You can also find us on BitChute at BFS 20 or CFS 2020 and Rumble at Creation Fellowship or the other way around.

You can find us and especially you can find us on Facebook which is where we do most of our posting.

Our Facebook is Creation Fellowship Santee and you can email us at creationfellowshipsantee at gmail .com

and that way you'll get on our speaker on our email list so that you'll get invitations for each of our

Thursday night presentations and you won't miss any of them. So with that, we're happy to introduce to you tonight,

Jim Pamplin. Jim has been a Christian since he was a boy and he heard with his brother a presentation at Green Oak Ranch in Vista and he's been serving the

Lord. He loves the Lord, he loves the topic of creation and he himself led a creation fellowship for a while at the

Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa. He and Chuck Smith helped start the Logos Research Associates and we'll let him tell you a little more about that during his, at the end of his presentation tonight but with that, we're happy to have with us,

Jim Pamplin. Thank you very much. Should we just jump in?

Go ahead. All right. Precepts and natural theology. By common sense and observations of the natural world, what can we reasonably infer about the existence and nature of God?

And how well do our surmising square with the God of the Bible? Let's begin with a question.

Has the universe always been here or did it have a beginning? Everywhere we look throughout the cosmos, we see a net flow of energy cascading from higher states to lower states.

Light streams into darkness, heat flows from hot to cold, ultimately degrading in the black body radiation which dissipates at the speed of light into the vast cosmic void, the heat sink of the universe.

If the universe had always been here, it should have long since reached thermal equilibrium and a uniform temperature of absolute zero.

There would be no heat, no light, no colliding particles, no temperature, no pressure, no chemistry, no electricity, no events to mark the passage of time, no future forever.

An infinitely old universe is not what we see around us. Therefore, the age of the universe is finite.

And that means it had a beginning. But how did the universe begin?

Ultimately, there are only two possible answers. Mindless, spontaneous magic, or its exact opposite, intentional causation.

Let's examine each in turn. Mindless, spontaneous magic.

First, there was nothing. Nothing. No matter, no energy, no space, no time, no physics, no laws of physics, nothing.

And then it exploded. And nothing accidentally turned itself into everything.

Unplanned and uncaused. Yeah, right.

If the universe spontaneously exploded into existence, unplanned and uncaused, it can just as spontaneously pop out of existence, unplanned and uncaused.

If mindless, causeless, spontaneous magic is the core of reality, there is no reason to suppose the future will be like the past.

No reason to believe effects result from causes. No reason to believe the universe should be intelligible in any sense.

No basis for knowledge or science. The only alternative to mindless, causeless, spontaneous magic is its antithesis, intentional causation.

A cause greater than the universe brought the universe into existence.

Does forensic evidence point to an intentional cause, a creator? Indeed, it does.

Everywhere we look throughout the cosmos, we find the fingerprints of intentionality.

We live in a highly organized universe, far from equilibrium, where the parameters of nature appear fine -tuned in order to host life, biological life in general, intelligent life in particular.

Examples of life -critical fine -tuning abound. Among all the elements, carbon displays a uniquely voracious capacity to form an almost infinite variety of compounds and polymers with itself and with many other elements.

Carbon forms the backbone of all four types of life's essential biomacromolecules.

These comprise nucleic acids, proteins, carbohydrates, and lipids.

Interestingly, biomacromolecules can only exist stably within the narrow water -modulated temperature band found on earth.

Of all chemical compounds, water uniquely exhibits many life -critical properties.

The bonding of between hydrogen atoms in water gives the molecule an overall polarity, causing water molecules to attract one another, giving liquid water high cohesion, high surface tension, extraordinary heat capacity, and a remarkable dielectric constant.

These properties combine to make liquid water the universal solvent, able to dissolve and transport all the chemicals, minerals, and nutrients needed to maintain life.

Liquid water is essential for all life. Earth's orbital radius appears fine -tuned to permit liquid water.

If earth were only marginally closer to the sun, its oceans would boil away into a runaway greenhouse atmosphere of superheated steam and crushing, pressure.

There would be no liquid water and there would be no life. If earth were only marginally farther from the sun, its water would be locked up in solid ice.

There would be no liquid water and there would be no life. Closer to the sun would make earth too hot for liquid water.

Farther from the sun would make earth too cold for liquid water. Earth's orbital radius is just right.

It lies within a narrow habitable band called the Goldilocks zone. Another life critical parameter of earth orbit is its remarkably low eccentricity.

Among all the planets, earth orbit is closest to circular. It stays within the habitable

Goldilocks zone throughout the year. Only slightly greater eccentricity would carry earth into lethal ranges every year.

And there would be no life. If a cause, a creator greater than the universe brought it into existence, what can we know about such a creator?

Warning, whatever creator there may be owes nothing of its existence or of its essence to philosophers or theologians who try to figure it out.

Such a creator simply is what it is, independent of human expectations.

Notwithstanding, what can we reasonably infer about such a creator?

It stands to reason the creator of space is not constrained by space, but fills up and exceeds all of space.

Such a creator is, by definition, omnipresent. The creator of time is not constrained by time.

It fills up and exceeds all of time. Such a creator is, by definition, eternal and omni -temporal.

The creator able to create not only the time, space, matter, and energy of the material universe, but also all the abstract non -material, non -spatial entities and relationships that govern the physical world, including the laws of nature, the laws of logic, and all mathematical relationships.

A creator able to organize inanimate matter into dynamic biological structures and systems capable of reproduction,

I might add, imbued with terabytes of software governing biochemical pathways.

A creator able to fabricate sentient beings programmed with self -awareness, curiosity, ability to engage and explore both the material and the abstract universe to reason, discover, analyze, invent, compose, and communicate.

Such a creator can do anything he jolly well pleases. He is, by definition, omnipotent.

A creator filling up and exceeding all of time and all of space, knowing how to create and order the material universe and its abstract underpinnings, knows everything that ever can be known.

By definition, such a creator is omniscient. One can know nothing about the creator of the universe beyond what the creator allows, revealing himself either passively or actively.

Passive revelation would include providing clues about himself and creating and programming sentient beings equipped with the faculties to discover and analyze those clues in order to reach correct conclusions.

Active self -revelation would constitute overt communications. Apart from self -revelation, whether passive or active, the creator of the universe must be inscrutable.

It follows that a creator who chooses to create sentient beings and communicate with them must be personal.

In summary, we can reasonably infer that the universe had a beginning, intentional causation best explains how the universe began.

We can reasonably infer that the creator of the universe is self -existent, independent of human expectations, omnipresent, eternal and omni -temporal, omnipotent, omniscient, inscrutable, apart from self -revelation, self -revealing and therefore personal.

How well does the God we infer from natural theology square with the God of the Bible? Why the

Bible? The Bible attests to be the word of God, a message system offered by the creator of the universe, a message system from beyond the constraints of time and space, a message system which from the beginning has validated its authenticity by describing events before they occur.

Isaiah 46, nine through 10, remember the former things of old, for I am

God and there is no other. I am God and there is none like me declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times, things that are not yet done, saying my counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure.

Isaiah 42, nine, behold the former things are come to pass and new things do

I declare before they spring forth, I tell you of them. John 13, 19, and these verses now are from Jesus.

Now I tell you before it come, that when it is come to pass, you may believe that I am.

John 14, 29, and now I have told you before it come to pass, that when it is come to pass, you might believe.

So how do our inferences about the existence and nature of God square with the Bible? Let's compare.

We inferred the universe had a beginning. The Bible says, in the beginning,

God created the heaven and the earth, Genesis 1 .1. We inferred a cause greater than the universe brought the universe into existence, both the physical and the abstract.

The Bible says, for by him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible,

Colossians 1 .16. We inferred the creator of the universe is what he is, self -existent, owing nothing of himself to human expectations.

The Bible says, and God said unto Moses, I am that I am. And he said, thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I am, hath sent me unto you,

Exodus 3 .14. We inferred the creator is omnipresent.

The Bible says, can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him, saith the

Lord? Do not I fill heaven and earth, saith the Lord? Jeremiah 23 .24.

The Bible says, that will God indeed dwell on the earth and behold the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee.

How much less is the house that I have built in, 1 Kings 8 .27. The Bible says, for in him we live and move and have our being,

Acts 17 .28. The Bible says, whither shall

I go from thy spirit or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there.

If I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the outermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me and thy right hand shall hold me.

Psalm 139 .7 -10. The Bible says, the

Lord is high above all nations in his glory above the heavens. Who is like unto the

Lord our God who dwelleth on high, who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven and in the earth?

Psalm 113 .4 -6. Had Michael Angelo known

Psalm 113 .4 -6? Might he have added another panel to the ceiling of the

Sistine Chapel? Who is like unto the Lord our God who dwelleth on high, who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven and in the earth?

We infer the creator is eternal and omnipotent. The Bible says, and Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba and called there on the name of the

Lord the everlasting God. Genesis 21 .33. The Bible says, now unto the king eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise

God be honor and glory forever and ever, amen. First Timothy 1 .17.

The Bible says, before the mountains were brought forth forever thou has formed the earth and the world even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art

God. Psalm 90 verse two. The Bible says, for thus says the high and lofty one who inhabits eternity, whose name is holy.

Isaiah 57 .15. We infer the creator is omnipotent.

The Bible says, but Jesus beheld them and said unto them, with men this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.

Matthew 19 .26. The Bible says, is anything too hard for the

Lord? Genesis 18 .14. The Bible says, behold,

I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for me?

Jeremiah 32 .27. The Bible says, and I heard as it were, the voice of a great multitude and as the voice of many waters and as the voice of mighty thundering saying, hallelujah for the

Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Revelation 19 .6.

We inferred the creator of the universe is omniscient. The Bible says, hast thou not known, hast thou not heard that the everlasting

God, the Lord, the creator of the ends of the earth, faint if not, neither is weary.

There is no searching of his understanding. Isaiah 40 .28. The Bible says, for if our heart condemn us,

God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things. First John 3 .20.

The Bible says, can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? Sayeth the

Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? Sayeth the Lord. Jeremiah 23 .24.

The Bible says, neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight, but all things are naked and open under the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Hebrews 4 .13. The Bible says, for he looketh to the ends of the earth and seeth under the whole heaven.

Job 28 .24. The Bible says, the eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

Proverbs 15 .3. The Bible says, great is our Lord and of great power.

His understanding is infinite. Psalm 147 .5.

We infer that apart from what the creator reveals about himself, he is inscrutable.

The Bible says, for who hath known the mind of the Lord or who have been his counselor?

Romans 11 .34. The Bible says, for my thoughts are not your thoughts.

Neither are your ways my ways, sayeth the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways.

And my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55 .8. The Bible says, oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God, how unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out.

Romans 11 .33. We inferred the creator's personal.

The Bible says, fear thou not for I am with thee. Be not dismayed, for I am thy

God. I will strengthen thee. Yea, I will help thee. Yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Isaiah 41 .10. The Bible says, for I, the

Lord thy God, will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, fear not, I will help thee.

Isaiah 41 .13. The Bible says, but now thus sayeth the

Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, fear not, for I have redeemed thee.

I have called thee by thy name. Thou art mine. Isaiah 43 .1.

The Bible says, the Lord is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.

Lamentations 3 .25. The Bible says, the Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, yea,

I have loved thee with an everlasting love. Therefore, with loving kindness have

I drawn thee. Jeremiah 31 .3. The Bible says, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3 .16. What could be more personal than that?

Should we be surprised if these fundamental attributes of God are knowable outside the Bible?

No, we should not. John chapter one, speaking of the word who was made flesh and dwelt among us, the only begotten of the father says, that was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 1 .9. Amos 4 .13 says, for lo, he that formeth the mountains and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, the

Lord, the God of hosts, is his name. Romans chapter one tells us, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness, because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath showed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and godhood,

Godhead. So they are without excuse, Romans 1 .18

-20. God's passive revelations through natural theology are clarified and vetted by the

Bible, the self -attesting word of God. While the creator reveals his eternal power and Godhead clearly through natural theology, we must draw lesser inferences as through a glass darkly.

God has reserved many more precious truths in his written word, the Holy Bible, our final authority.

What natural theology does not reveal is the fallen nature of all humanity and the gospel of Jesus Christ, the forgiveness of sin and the exclusive promise of everlasting life to everyone who puts their trust in Jesus.

2000 years ago, using the genetic language God had created to make man in his own image,

God spelled himself. The Holy Spirit downloaded that spelling, that word into the chemistry of an ovum, a virgin conceived and the word became flesh to dwell among us.

Nine months later, a little boy was born who was in every sense, Emmanuel, God with us.

He was the word become flesh, the only begotten son of God, the son of man.

That little boy grew up living a sinless life and became a man of whom

God spoke from heaven saying, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 3, 17 and Matthew 17, five. A man approved of God by miracles and wonders and signs which

God did by him, Acts 2, 22. This same

Jesus who knew no sin went to the cross to be made sin for us, 1

Corinthians 5, 28, to extinguish all of our sins in the death of his own body.

Three days later, he rose from the dead, giving everlasting life to everyone who puts their trust in him.

Romans 10, 13 through 15. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent?

As it is written, how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things.

Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the

Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you and lo,

I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen. Matthew 28, 19 and 20.

Seeing then that God has commissioned believers to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with the lost, with a lost world, let us seize every opportunity to share the good news personally, with friends, family, neighbors, and strangers, and by supporting

Bible -believing ministries that preach the gospel and equip the saints.

Hebrews 12, one and two. Wherefore, seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin which doth so easily beset us and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Amen. Jim? Yes.

Your picture's disappeared. Yeah, that's because it's over. Oh, okay.

I wish, that was really good. I'm impressed and we have some questions, so I will turn that over to Terry.

Well, the first question, I mean, that was really amazing and it was different than most of the things that we've seen.

And in one way is that, I think, and I'm gonna go ahead and stop your sharing so that we can have our videos up here.

Here we go. Your presentation was unique to us because it seemed like it was like a movie and your voice, you have a very great narrator voice.

That's how we were commenting about that, that, wow, like it was interesting to watch your slides.

They're very well done and the way that you presented them was great. And one of the ladies seems to think that maybe your voice is familiar.

So our first question is, have you actually done any kind of movie work or like, have you ever narrated like a

Bible story or something that we might have recognized? No. Okay, well, you could.

So, and then I learned a new word tonight, which is omnitemporal.

So of course, I've always known omnipresent and omnipotent and I forgot the third one that I've always known, but omnitemporal, that was interesting.

Well, you know, I only learned it recently from my 13 year old grandson. Wow. I was sharing with him some of the ideas in this and he told me about what he'd been learning at class at Compass Bible Church.

Okay. And that was the first I'd heard the term. Yeah, that's pretty cool. I mean, and obviously it is a characteristic of God that he's exists across all time.

That's what that means basically. So, yeah. So that's what means he is throughout all ages?

Yeah, yeah. So not only is he all powerful and omniscient, that was the third one, all powerful, all knowing, and he exists everywhere in all places, but omnitemporal then means that he exists throughout all time, everywhere in time.

In the Bible verse, it fits that as he inhabits eternity. Yeah. Oh, that's a verse in the

Bible? Yeah, it was one we covered today. Okay, I thought I, there was a lot of material there.

It was really good. That's what, this is definitely one that I think a lot of us will want to go back and re -watch because it will be worth re -watching.

It was very interesting and like I said, it had a nice, your presentation had a nice aesthetic appeal.

So that was interesting. So does anybody else have questions? You can put them in the chat or -

Could we have Jim give his bio? Yeah, Jim, why don't you share your testimony with us?

Wow, well, I wrote it all out for you, but I can just kind of give it off the cuff,

I guess. Yeah, that would be fine or yeah, you could read it or you could tell it to us.

I don't have it written out in front of me, but basically I grew up in a Christian home, but it was an interesting thing.

My grandmother was considered by my uncles to have been a fanatic.

And so they ran the other way. My dad loved the Lord, but some of his brothers were just real hellions.

And so I guess maybe because of that, my parents taught us about God and things, but my brother and I didn't really understand the gospel, the concept of being personally saved until we went to Green Oak Ranch one

Thanksgiving weekend many, many years ago. And we heard the gospel presented in a way that, you know, really struck home for us.

We both received Jesus as our savior the same night, same event. And let's see, what else can

I tell you? Well.

So I think I read that you started out as pre -med in college, but you were being taught a lot of evolution.

Yes. And ran headlong into a biology teacher that gave my wife and I, we weren't married yet.

She was my fiance. Gave us both D's on the,

D's or an F, I'm not sure which, on our final, because we didn't believe in evolution.

And it was all essay, you know? So if you don't believe, right, you can't answer the questions right. Jim, what year was that?

Oh, about 1967. And so they were already, they were militant about it already then?

She was, she was, yes. Thank you. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

I just wanted to get a timeframe around that. So you went from pre -med to, did your wife continue on through medical or?

Well, no, we both switched majors to biology. We went to Azusa Pacific and graduated there.

And I worked briefly for the Moody Institute of Science in Whittier. And then my wife continued, she eventually got her credential in biology, to teach biology.

And so we both have bachelor's in biology, but she actually put hers to use and I never really did, beyond the short time

I was at Moody Institute of Science. And so I got off into mechanical design.

My dad was a prolific inventor and we had a little machine shop in the backyard. And so I just kind of gravitated to drafting mechanical design.

So that's what I did for most of my career is a means of making a living. And, but this thing about creation evolution,

I just had a real itch for a long, long time because of what had happened to us. And so I started attending the

Creation Science Association meetings in Santa Ana a long time ago. And I was on the board for several years.

And then Bill Morgan, I don't know if you know Bill. Oh yeah, he's one of our repeats.

Yeah, yeah. Well, at one of the meetings, one of our board meetings, Bill says, he says, you know, we have about the same number of people every meeting and it doesn't matter whether we advertise or not, it's always the same.

We just can't seem to grow. He said, Jim, you know, Pastor Chuck, he says, do you think he'd let us come over there and have our meetings there?

I said, well, yeah, he probably would, but I think he'd be even more open to Calvary Chapel having its own creation science fellowship.

And so Bill says, would you ask him? So I said, okay. So I did, and he said, sure.

So we started our own creation science fellowship there at Calvary Chapel. And I led that for 18 years and then

COVID hit and they decided they were gonna have to slim down and do away with some of the side ministries of the church.

And so creation science fellowship is one of them, but Calvary Chapel Tustin opened up and said, come on over.

So we've been at Calvary Chapel Tustin ever since. Oh, I didn't know that you had found a new home.

So that's good to know. Yeah. And do you guys have a website to tell people about like what speakers and meeting dates and stuff?

Yes. I'm the guy who fills the spots and I'm kind of slow.

So it doesn't go very far in advance. And right now we don't show anything, but it's csf -oc .com.

Okay. That's for creation science fellowship, orangecounty .com.

Cfs -oc .com. Yes. Okay. All right. I put that into the comments on Facebook there.

Jim, does Bill Morgan still work with you on the creation science at Tustin or no?

Yeah, he comes over and speaks now and then. And then sometimes we meet on the first and third

Saturday of each month. Well, normally this month we're not meeting. And the first meeting of January would be

January 1st. We're not ever meeting then. So our first meeting of January will be in the middle of January. But anyway, sometimes because he meets earlier in the day on Saturday, the first Saturday of each month, sometimes we share speakers.

So I'll hire a speaker to come and speak. And Bill says, well, can we get him too?

So he'll have the guy and then they'll come to us after. Can you give us a list of speakers?

Because we're done for the year and we're starting back up again January 27th.

And we have some ideas for some speakers, but if we're going to fill the whole year, we're going to probably need like 42, at least 42 speakers.

And I have a specific request too. So I think that you're friends with Dr. Sanford.

Yes. And I would love to have him come and talk to us about genetic entropy. Sure. If you can help us with that, that would be awesome.

I think I could. And the thing is, when

John came to speak, he and I kind of hit it off and we had a number of discussions afterward. And we were impressed by the

Geoscience Research Center that the Seventh -day Adventists have. The church sponsors this center of scientists and they just go do science and report back to the church from time to time what kind of things they're finding, but without any constraints.

And so at the time, this was 13 years ago, we thought, you know,

Calvary Chapel is pretty wealthy. Maybe they would think of, you know, doing something like that.

So I used to draw on the creation's...

Try again, Jim. ICR, Institute for Creation Research for Speakers when we first started the

Creation Science Fellowship at Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. And then they moved away to Dallas and they were a very close -knit family.

You know, a lot of scientists and a lot of people, they're a family of about 50 people that all worked together over a period of time.

But when they moved, only five people went with them. And so here are some of these top -notch creation scientists weren't gonna be doing creation science anymore.

And that just really bothered me, you know? So I talked with John, I talked with each of the scientists that were planning to stay behind and asked him if the

Lord should raise up a new venue, would they be interested in continuing doing creation research? And they all said, yes.

And so I talked to Pastor Chuck and asked him if he was aware of the situation, and he wasn't.

And I asked him if he'd like to meet the scientists, and he said, yes. So John Sanford and John Baumgardner and Bill Hosch and Steve Austin all came up from San Diego area.

And we spent an afternoon with Pastor Chuck and a couple of other guys. And we talked and prayed for several hours.

And the outcome was that Calvary Chapel gave us seed money to start a new creation science ministry, and that's

Lagos Research Associates. So we've been in operation now, this is 13 years.

And we have about 80 scientists and scholars. And it's pretty much, for the most part, it's just kind of a loosely -knit fellowship.

Once in a while, we get together and have a conference and see each other face -to -face. And there's a little email traffic goes back and forth, you know, people with common interests that study some things.

And we've had a few projects with a lot of activity.

One right now is called the Navajo Research Project, Navajo Sandstone Research Project.

And it's got, oh, I don't know, what is it? Maybe seven or eight guys involved in that, in collaboration.

And Steve Austin has led a number of expeditions to the

Dead Sea to look for seismites. The Dead Sea's drying up, and so there are places where you can dig into the earth and find what used to be sea bottom.

And there's a record of earthquakes that you can detect and sample.

And so I've been with him on two of those trips. And so there are several projects that are ongoing that are part of Lagos Research Associates.

Oh, thank you. Can we email you to get John's contact information, or can you contact

John? Okay. Yes. And for this kind of thing, probably there are quite a few people that would be happy to appear on your show.

Oh, nice. Okay, so Terri's tablet died, so she is no longer on with us.

And she usually, I like to talk, but I'm not a good speaker. So I'm going to see if there are, okay, do you have a question,

Bob? Is if, I think what we're going to do is shut off the live stream and the recording, and then we'll let everybody unmute and turn on their cameras, and they can ask you questions.

Is that okay? Okay. Okay, so here goes, stop in live stream.

And stopping recording.