April 27, 2021 Show with Ernie Springer, Dr. Joel Yeager, & Dr. Daniel O’Roark on “Coronavirus & the Leadership of the Christian Church: A Sacred Trust Broken” (Part 3)

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 27th day of April, 2021.

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I'm thrilled to have back on the program three men who have written a book that I believe is absolutely vital for every

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Christian, and perhaps even more specifically, every pastor in the

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United States and even globally in the English -speaking world anyway. I am speaking about the authors of the book,

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Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church, A Sacred Trust Broken, and I have all three of the authors,

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Ernie Springer, founder of Old Paths Publications, Dr. Joel Yeager, founder and operator of Heritage Family Health in Newmanstown, Pennsylvania, who is also my new personal physician, and Dr.

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Daniel O 'Rourke of Ballad CVA Heart Institute in Johnson City, Tennessee.

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Welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, gentlemen. Thank you very much, Chris. Thank you.

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Great to be here. And I'm going to give my email address out for our listeners, if they have a question.

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It's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Let's say you are at odds with your own pastor over how your congregation is handling the coronavirus pandemic, or perhaps you're even a pastor, and you're at odds with some of your fellow elders or your denomination over the way things are being conducted in response to the hysteria associated with this pandemic.

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Whatever the case may be, if you are compelled to remain anonymous, we will grant you that request. But if it's just a general question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Let me be a bit more formal introducing the three of you individually.

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First of all, Ernie Springer, it's great to have you back on the program, founder of Old Paths Publications.

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Why don't you tell our listeners about why you felt the need to bring this book into print?

03:48

Well, thank you, Chris, and it's good to be on the program again. Old Paths Publications was established quite a number of years ago to identify and bring back some older, reformed, and Puritan -type works that had been either long out of print or long enough out of print that they were valuable and relevant to current events at the time, and also to be a help for ministers and seminary students where they might need a particular text for their training or their preaching and leading congregation.

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This particular book seemed to be screaming out to me as a necessary ingredient to what we were all going through in the past year, that is, after the short 15 days to slow the spread, which obviously created a much longer period of time.

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And we really, all three of us, I think, had great concerns about what the church was doing and how they were responding to this, and maybe not responding as we felt was the most biblically accurate, and of course for the doctors as well, that it was not perhaps really following the science and not the best medical approach.

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So we got our heads together and produced this book, and we're really happy to do so in a rather quick fashion.

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The Lord kind of, I think, put all the pieces together for us so that we were able to come out just in the nick of time.

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Well, if anybody wants to get a hold of this book, by the way, Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church is sacred, trustbroken, you can go on Amazon, but you could also go to cvbbs .com,

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and if they don't have it in stock, they will order it for you if you mentioned that you heard about the book on Iron Trumpet and Zion Radio, that's cvbbs .com,

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which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, and we hope that you get a hold of the book.

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Dr. Joel Yeager, as I said, he is now my personal physician. I am so thrilled to have a

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Christian who is not only a Christian but also Reformed and also being very open and honest about the truth in regard to the

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Coronavirus and not without risk to his own reputation and his own practice in a world of blindly following the left, it seems, whatever their marching orders are.

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You have people who I am convinced know better that out of fear or out of a desire to be more renowned and to be thought more highly of than they ought, they just follow whatever the trend of the day is in regarding this virus, and I am so delighted that providentially

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I have discovered you and Heritage Family Health. Dr. Yeager is also a diplomat of the

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American Board of Family Medicine and a contributor to the Second Opinion Project. Tell us about Heritage Family Health in Newmanstown, Pennsylvania.

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Well, thanks, Chris. It's a real honor and a delight to be back on the program with you. So Heritage Family Health is celebrating its 10th anniversary here in a couple of months,

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August. Our office staff was just reflecting on that the other day as one of my nurses, actually several of our staff actually came from a previous office, so we have a long history.

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So our office model is different from most office models.

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We don't participate with any insurance companies, and because of that, we are free to engage in the physician -patient relationship, which

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I believe is what it was always designed to be before it was co -opted and coerced by third -party payers, which completely has eviscerated the physician -patient relationship.

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So that's been a great, I could say, experiment, although it's actually worked very well for us over the past 10 years.

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I would not go back to the traditional model like I had practiced in for a number of years before.

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So we are out in the middle of Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, just north of Lancaster, which most people know at least generally as Amish country.

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We're in a rural area. Our office is surrounded by cornfields and hayfields, and we have a hitching post out behind for our

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Amish patients, and our office is in a renovated 100 -plus -year -old, what used to be a barn, right beside our house.

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So my commute to work is just a few steps out the back door. So it's a delight to practice here.

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We had a vendor lunch yesterday, and this lady said, I've been in this industry for 19 years, and I've never seen an office like yours in all of my travels across the country.

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And so we're blessed. We're grateful that we can offer something that's an alternative with a Christian focus to our community.

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Yes, when I was there for my fairly recent examination, it was the first time

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I was ever at a doctor's office where Amish folk were coming in and out. That was definitely interesting to see.

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And as I did the last time, during a part two of our discussion on this book,

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I have to do a little bit of damage control when you described your offices as being in a restored barn.

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I don't want them to get the idea that this is a falling down, ranshackled building that still has the odor of manure in it.

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It is a very pristine and very much beautifully renovated barn.

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And the only reason you would ever know it was a barn at one time is because of the shape of the structure.

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Obvious, it reveals that it was a barn, but it's a beautiful, beautiful, immaculate facility.

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Thank you, Chris. And state -of -the -art, and high -tech. Very good.

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And such a joy and such a refreshing, pleasant atmosphere to walk into a doctor's office where nobody's wearing masks and you're not reprimanded because your mask isn't entirely covering your nose, which was my last experience at a doctor's office where even though I informed them, you know,

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I just had congestive heart failure and I'm not really breathing well with this mask covering my nose.

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Oh, isn't that special? But can you put it up over your nose, please? They didn't care. Yeah, so unfortunate.

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And the website is HeritageFamilyHealth .org, HeritageFamilyHealth .org.

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And hopefully, we'll remember to repeat that information later. And Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke, he is with Ballard CVA Heart Institute in Johnson City, Tennessee.

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He's a diplomat of the American Osteopathic Board of Internal Medicine and Cardiology, and a diplomat of the

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Certification Board of Nuclear Cardiology, and a diplomat of the

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Board of Echocardiology, and serves as a fellow of the

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American College of Cardiology. Why don't you tell us something about that unique field of medicine that you practice,

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Dr. O 'Rourke? Yes, thank you, Chris. I've been a cardiologist practicing in the field of cardiovascular medicine since 1987.

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And we basically treat the whole realm of cardiac disease.

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Your particular medical issue, congestive heart failure, is something we treat quite often. Cardiologists are to be distinguished from cardiothoracic surgeons.

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Cardiothoracic surgeons, they would be the physicians who might replace a heart valve, perform a bypass operation.

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Cardiologists are primarily engaged in the diagnosis and treatment on the medical side of these issues.

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And some specialists in cardiology also do cardiac catheterization and coronary stent procedures.

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And there are some valve surgeries now that are actually being done via catheters. So our specialty is involved in all that.

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I've gone to part -time status. I'm closer to the back door than I am the front door. And basically,

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I spend most of my time now seeing office patients and rounding at the hospital, just seeing fairly standard and routine cardiac problems.

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But it's been a blessing, and it's been a very rewarding career. And the website for that practice is

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Balladhealth .org, B -A -L -L -A -D, health .org, for those of you who live in the

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Johnson City, Tennessee area. And by the way, let me one more time give a plug to Heritage Family Health in Newmanstown, Pennsylvania.

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It's well worth the drive, folks, if you have to travel a long distance, if you live in Pennsylvania or Maryland or somewhere fairly close to Pennsylvania.

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It took me an hour to get there exactly. It was kind of interesting how it was to the second hour to pull into the parking lot.

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And it was a beautiful drive because of the country atmosphere and scenery. And if you drive an hour or more to things that you may think are important, like getting a sale on some item that you want to buy or whatever it is else that you want to do recreationally, if you're going to a stadium or arena to see your favorite sporting event, and you're driving an hour or more, when it comes to your health,

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I think you should be willing to at least drive an hour to get to where you're going, if indeed it is a facility that is highly recommended.

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And I cannot sing enough praises about Heritage Family Health. Well, this is to remind our listeners, this is part three of our discussion on this subject of the coronavirus.

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And I wanted to basically cover some ground that we may not have focused on long enough the last time.

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Ernie, now more than a year, churches are not only moving forward with far less restrictions, but they are unrepentant for their lockdowns and masking.

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But worse yet, many of them are self -congratulatory, praising the wise actions of the elders and thanking

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God for his blessing and protecting their churches from a health perspective. Nothing, however, of the spiritual detriment done to the church body.

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Can you give your comments on that, please? Yes, and it is a bit surprising on one hand, if not disturbing on the other.

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And you've said it quite well. And of course, I think you've mentioned that there are ministers who maybe just out of fear have kind of, you know, or perhaps it was doctors, but maybe ministers, too, out of fear have just kind of gone along with the kind of narrative on this.

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Because the momentum of society has taken such a strong -handed view against any who might take exception to what was coming forth.

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And, you know, this may come off a bit on the stronger side.

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But it seems as though after, as you mentioned, a self -congratulatory approach, there's really nothing coming out about the spiritual detriment that has been done to the church body.

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You know, I haven't heard that coming from any of the ministers, and yet on one hand, there are members who have ceased to return and are attending other churches, even because what they perceive to be unfaithful actions on the part of their shepherds of their particular congregation.

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And on the other hand, you have many that have stayed home, live streaming, even to this point, still because of the fear that remains within them, which, unfortunately, has, if not unintentionally, you know, but indirectly, been fed and supported by the church mandate, as the government put on restrictions and the church mirrored those restrictions that unnecessarily added to the fear of some of the members of their congregations.

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So that does sound somewhat harsh, perhaps, maybe even a bit on the intemperate side, but we've seen that these lockdowns and restrictions were, at this point now, really largely unnecessary at best, and at worst,

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I believe, and I think we've made the point in the book, contrary to God's Word. So, whether it was done out of ignorance, you know, or, you know, and certainly with good intentions, if in fact it was wrong, then it's irrelevant as to the motives and how they went about it and the ignorance, because if it was wrong, then it was sinful.

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Sin is sin, and the spiritual and biblical life of the church and God's people, unfortunately, was kind of twisted about like a waxed nose,

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I guess you could use that expression, where the leadership who didn't lead as faithfully as they should have, they've given no account before the church as to their actions.

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They haven't said, you know, even that, well, you know, in hindsight, we probably shouldn't have done this, or we should have done this better.

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You know, it's just silence, you know, it's crickets, I guess is the best way to describe it.

18:37

Well, there are many pastors and churches that not only do not feel a need or believe they have a need to repent of anything or ask forgiveness for anything, they believe that people with the mindset that we have on this program today, we are the ones in sin.

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We're the ones that need to repent. We're the ones that flaunted our personal peccadilloes in the sight of the masses who have had their safety and their lives put at jeopardy.

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How do you respond to that? And we could have all of you respond to that. Well, I'll be happy to defer to the doctors if they want to take a stab at that.

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Dr. Yeager, you want to start? Sure. Yes, that's unfortunately a critique,

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I guess, that runs fairly deep, even for people who choose not to be vaccinated, people who choose not to wear a mask.

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I guess my first thought would be, as we've said in some of the previous interviews, it comes down to a matter of truth.

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You know, what is true? What are we actually dealing with? Are we dealing with a deadly pandemic, which I think we've established throughout the book, we're really not.

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We're dealing with something equivalent to a bad case of influenza, and that's been well documented. And I think, you know, speaking to the issue of truth, that's been one of my personal disappointments,

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I would say. And I've had so many people sort of throw up their hands in exasperation and say, well, you don't really know who to believe anymore.

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And that's, you know, I'd have to say an intellectual cop -out, because we're called in Scripture to be noble like the

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Bereans were. We're called to study the Scriptures. We're called to study the times and see what is, in fact, true.

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I was having a discussion recently, pushing back against, this was on the vaccine, and the gentleman

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I was having the discussion with said he wished someone else in this particular constituency, who was also a very well -trained physician, would step in and give his support to what

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I was saying, because that would lend credibility to the argument and, well, as I understood where he was coming from, my pushback to that is truth is never arrived at by consensus.

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Truth is arrived at based on what is actually true. And unfortunately, we seem to have a generation of people, both in culture as well as in the

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Church, who have very little skills in terms of how one does arrive at truth. That's what we were attempting to do in the book, just present some truth.

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Just put truth out there and let people sort out. People have to make a decision. What is true? What isn't? And Dr.

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O 'Rourke? Yeah, Chris, there are many ways we can approach this question.

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I'll just focus on the, in reference to your comment about how those of us who feel the way we do are sometimes considered to be in sin,

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I'm going to approach it from the misapplication of the love thy neighbor argument. And very briefly, and we do cover this in the book, is the idea that asymptomatic people can know that they're contagious.

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There's a whole host of data that has really shown that the aspects or the paradigm of the asymptomatic super spreader of a respiratory virus, that has never been proven to be true.

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But even so, even if it were, all of us have lived our lives, I'm 62 years old, and apart from my medical career, it never dawned on me to ever wear a medical mask anywhere but in appropriate places in a hospital.

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And so if a person feels well, they cannot possibly know, quote unquote, that they're sick.

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And that seems like a paradox, and it is. We have a situation where people are being told that even though they feel well, they may be sick, not know it, and may be spreading disease.

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We know, of course, that in Scripture, Jesus, in some of his parables and sayings, he was teaching spiritual truths, of course, but he didn't make reference to the paraphrase that he made reference to the fact that the sick don't need a physician.

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And basically that tells us that Jesus recognized that we can know when we're sick and we don't feel well.

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And again, before God, we cannot be responsible for what we cannot know.

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So if I'm walking around in an asymptomatic status and feel perfectly well, there's just no way

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I can know that I was spreading a possible disease. And to take the actions that have been taken here would really require lifelong masking for everyone, and that's just a totally untenable paradigm as far as I'm concerned.

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That's how I would look at this and answer this, just to really have people focus on a proper interpretation of loving neighbor itself.

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And then, of course, all the other arms of society from these lockdown measures and so forth,

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I would say those are the areas where neighbors have not been loving well. Now, when we come back from our first break,

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I'd like especially the doctors, Dr. Yeager and Dr. O 'Rourke, to comment on the fact that there are many who would be of our mindset that a lot of hysteria is being spread over the pandemic that involves gross exaggeration and downright lies and deception.

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But there are scientists out there on our side here who would not only say that it is ridiculous to be walking around with a mask everywhere you go, even outside, but they would say that it is harmful.

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It's not just a neutral area that is silly or overkill or a sign of hypochondria or that kind of thing.

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It is something that is actually maybe even seriously harmful to one's own health.

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So we will have you comment on that when we come back. And if anybody else would like to join us on the air for the question, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Always remember to give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this, I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

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And we're looking forward to Dr. Gadi returning to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. He is on the same page with our guest today, very opposed to the nonsensical point to which people are wearing masks and being forced to wear masks.

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And he's also against the current vaccines being pushed for the coronavirus.

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And we'll get to that area a little later today with our guests on the program. But if you could,

36:23

Dr. Yeager, perhaps we'll start with you and then we'll go to Dr. O 'Rourke. And then if Ernie, you have anything to throw in there. As I was saying before, there are some people, a minority of voices in the media for sure, who say not only is it silly or stupid or moronic to be insisting that people be walking around even on a beautiful, gorgeous spring day with a mask on or even exercising outside with a mask on or involved in athletic competition with a mask on outside, even though that may be silly and crazy.

37:06

There are some saying this is really bad. This is dangerous. Would you doctors agree with that?

37:15

Yes, I would. Yeah, I think we probably all saw the CDC release today that it vaccinated.

37:22

It's now OK to go outside without a mask on. And I reported that to my wife and we both just shook our heads like where has sane, rational conversation actually gone?

37:34

I just wanted to respond to that question about the health dangers by something that I think the three of us as co -authors actually had shared by email.

37:43

So there's a medical journal called Medical Hypotheses, which is a little bit different from a typical journal.

37:48

This is a journal that allows for the forum or it's a forum rather for the exchange of ideas.

37:55

And unfortunately, many medical journals have suppressed truth or have even published things that aren't true over the past year, which that's a whole different discussion.

38:05

But there was an article by Dr. O 'Rourke will be interested to know, a cardiologist from Stanford. It's called

38:11

Face Masks in the COVID -19 Era, a Health Hypothesis. It was published back in November and in the print journal in January of this year.

38:20

But I wanted to just read from a list because there's a wonderful table which just summarizes the entire article.

38:26

And it's separated into physiological effects, psychological effects, and health consequences. And in the first column, the physiological effects are hypoxemia, that's low oxygen level, hypercapnia, that's increased carbon dioxide levels.

38:40

Neither of those two are appropriate for breathing. Shortness of breath, decline in pH, acidosis, toxicity, inflammation, increase in stress hormones, immunosuppression.

38:52

I'm actually skipping some things. Second category is psychological effects.

38:58

Activation of the flight or fight stress response, fear, mood disturbances.

39:04

I've certainly encountered many of these in my patients. Insomnia, fatigue, compromised cognitive performance.

39:11

I've had many patients who needed to wear a mask at work for an 8 to 10 hour shift saying they feel foggy brained and can't think very well.

39:18

Long -term health consequences increase. This is interesting. Predisposition for viral and infection illnesses, headaches, anxiety, depression, high blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, cancer, diabetes, accelerating the aging process, health deterioration overall, and premature mortality.

39:38

So that's quite a list of the ongoing effects of face mask wearing. And Dr.

39:45

O 'Rourke, do you have anything to add? Yes, there's a whole host of literature really going back 100 years on this and none of that literature has ever conclusively proven that face mask was effective for the prevention of viral respiratory disease.

40:01

There is another essay or review article that just came out a few days ago and it is entitled as a mask that covers the mouth and nose free from undesirable side effects in everyday use and treating potential hazards.

40:15

And they list some of the things that Dr. Yeager just mentioned. So this is a very consistent thing where there are problems with oxygenation, hypercarbia, which describes the buildup of carbon dioxide behind the mask.

40:29

One area that has not been studied in great detail, there are some papers, but we would presume that these masks also entrap microbes and that there would be many different microbes both bacterial and viral that could become entrapped within these masks.

40:47

And there is some evidence that it does indeed lead to higher likelihood of pneumonia and other respiratory infections.

40:55

But we also know that people who are masking, they cannot stop touching their mask or touching their face.

41:02

And so any bacterial or viral burden that is within that mask, you touch it, you touch other things, and that could be another potential source of transmission.

41:13

But at the very least, you know, these masks do have some definite harms.

41:21

And as Dr. Yeager mentioned, there is evidence that the harm could actually be very great. Now, one thing that's baffling to me is why is there such a variety of voices saying completely different things from those that identify with the quote, quote, scientific community?

41:46

You know, you see these people on television. I mean, you see Dr. Fauci ad nauseam infinitum, pushing the masks after also previously on 60 minutes, no less, telling people it's silly for anybody to be walking around wearing a mask.

42:05

Now it's the exact opposite. Now he wants you to wear two masks. What's with this?

42:10

I mean, there are people who are upset with me doing programs like this, people who are even theologically in agreement with me, who they are just convinced by the people that they choose to agree with that they hear on television and read in magazines, newspapers and on the

42:32

Internet. They have their own scientists that they prefer to listen to for no apparent reason at all, why they would prefer listening to those folks as opposed to someone like you.

42:44

And I have told them I'd be more readily believing people who are actually putting their careers in some way at risk by telling the world what they believe the truth to be, not somebody who's just in lockstep with everybody in the leftist regime.

43:01

But going back to you, Dr. Yeager, why do you think there's so many different voices in the so -called scientific community saying different things, polar opposite things?

43:14

Right. Great question, Chris. I wish I had the answer to that because I think about that a lot.

43:19

I'll offer just a couple of thoughts. From an individual physician standpoint, part of it is so many physicians these days are employed by large corporate medical centers, and it honestly comes down to your jobs on the line.

43:35

If you don't speak the narrative that's given you from the top down, if you begin to question or push back, you may very well get fired.

43:44

So, and I had a patient, actually not a patient, a neighbor who I met in the grocery store tell me a story about his interaction with a physician, and it verified that very thing.

43:56

So that's one. You know, I always tell people, you know, come and spend a week with me in my practice.

44:05

We have medical students come here. We have pre -med students come, and when they spend a week in our office, it's a real eye opener just because of the types of things that come through our office.

44:17

So, you know, I always hesitate to speak negatively about a colleague. Dr. Fauci is, of course, you know, a trained physician.

44:24

However, I think it's been documented, you know, he probably hasn't laid hands on a patient for quite a few years.

44:32

I can't verify that, so perhaps that's speculation. But on the other hand,

44:37

Dr. O 'Rourke and myself have been laying hands on patients, clinical exams, seeing people for many years, including over the past 12 to 16 months.

44:47

So I have experience treating people with coronavirus. I, along with my wife, have treated dozens of people.

44:57

And so what I'm being told is simply not lining up with the clinical experience that I've observed over the past 12 months.

45:05

And then, you know, I think another thought would be from a leadership standpoint. I think, you know, if you study leadership, you know that the vast majority of the population are followers and not leaders.

45:16

And our media has done a wonderful job of espousing what

45:22

I would call a mockingbird narrative, where essentially everyone says the same thing. So you add that to a follower mentality, and what's the public supposed to do except regurgitate what they heard to be true, which is supposed to be true?

45:37

Unfortunately, it isn't true. So that's why just every day I try to speak truth to my patients.

45:43

And I have these conversations with patients. And when I bring up things like this that they've never thought about, it's like, hmm, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

45:51

That's just some random thoughts to answer or to respond to that. And Dr. O 'Rourke? Yeah, I think a question we always have to ask,

46:00

I believe it's a Latin phrase, qui bono, who benefits? And of course, governments benefit from this narrative.

46:09

Mega medical corporations benefit. But whenever we see a lot of issues in the human condition, a lot of it boils down to money, power, and control.

46:19

But I think two areas where, to answer your question specifically, Chris, I think one is that there's a massive conflict of interest.

46:28

The amount of money changing hands here, much of it created out of thin air, basically, is just, it's unprecedented.

46:38

The hospitals, it is well established that the hospitals were paid very handsome premiums for taking care of COVID patients.

46:45

So they were, in many ways, highly incentivized to make that diagnosis. And then also, too,

46:52

I think part of it is a worldview analysis. Basically, a Christian, an unbeliever, can look at the same fact or look at the same object and have totally different views on it just based on what their underlying worldview is.

47:10

And I think that's an often overlooked issue here. And we did discuss it in the book somewhat.

47:18

But just to use a real illustration, here we have the Centers for Disease Control. They have massive influence over the medical paradigm of COVID -19.

47:29

They're making these pronouncements. As Dr. Yager mentioned, the CDC says today we can go masquerade outside.

47:37

But yet, this very same CDC, you can go to other pages on their website where they basically sing the praises of transgenderism.

47:45

And if there was ever a delusional thought process, transgenderism,

47:51

I'm having a hard time thinking of one. So we see these stark contrasts.

47:56

We have these medical men, on the one hand, trying to counsel us on the scientific and medical aspects of COVID -19.

48:04

But on the other hand, in my mind, they totally deny what they say when they engage in abject delusion elsewhere.

48:14

Yeah, and as far as people having their careers at risk, if they go against the status quo in the left on this issue, they're not being forced to go on television and write things on the internet that support that mask wearing and pro -vaccine agenda.

48:41

They're doing that voluntarily. And one of them that is kind of puzzling, more than kind of,

48:48

Dr. Mark Siegel, who is a frequent guest on one of my favorite TV shows, Tucker Carlson, and he's also on other

48:55

Fox News programs, he's very opposed to mandates and government authoritarianism and all that kind of thing.

49:05

But he still pushes masks. He still pushes the vaccines. And it makes me wonder, does he know he's telling mistruths combined with the truths he's telling?

49:21

Why on earth would he be, what advantage does he have giving false information?

49:28

I mean, I don't know if any of you have any idea why that would be, when he's agreeing in part with many conservatives on these issues.

49:38

Anybody have anything to say, chime in on anything in that regard? I guess not.

49:46

I guess in their verse, it talks about a double -minded man being unstable in their ways.

49:55

I don't know if this applies to any of these situations. Yeah, it's just really frustrating.

50:02

We have to go to our midway break. And one of the things that I want to make sure we cover with adequate time is the vaccines being promoted.

50:14

When we come back, we'll have Dr. Yeager start that discussion. And eventually,

50:20

I want to get your reactions to the madness that's going on in Canada with Pastor Coates, who was arrested.

50:31

I interviewed not long ago his attorney when he was still in jail. In fact, I believe

50:36

I interviewed him on the very day that he was released from jail for not shutting down the congregation where he pastors in Canada.

50:49

But I'd like you all to respond to that. But first, I want Dr. Yeager first, and then

50:55

Dr. O 'Rourke to have anything to say about the vaccines.

51:01

It's time for our midway break right now, which, as you know, if you listen to this program regularly, is a bit longer than our other breaks because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

51:11

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break because the FCC requires of them to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida.

51:21

So while they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. Use this time wisely, please.

51:28

Write down as much of the information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you possibly can so that you can more successfully and more frequently respond to our advertisers, which hopefully will sometimes be patronizing them, buying their products, using their services, visiting their churches, supporting their parachurch organizations.

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But when you can't do that, please at least respond to our advertisers with their contact information by thanking them for sponsoring

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio. That should go a long way to keep our advertisers happy, knowing that their money is well spent, blessing the lives of so many people.

52:04

So please thank them if you haven't done so already. And also, of course, send in questions to our guest today on the coronavirus,

52:12

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

52:19

If you live outside the USA, don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. Hello, dear ones.

52:32

My name is Justin Peters and my friend Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the

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Please join Chris Arnzen and me September 30th through October 2nd at G3 2021.

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This is Justin Peters reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Hi, this is John Samson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

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I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

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Here's what Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

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Good to be back. Chris, I always enjoy our time. You, I have to say, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.

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Eastern Time, at ironsharpensironradio .com. Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing 6th grade.

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Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. As host of Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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This is Pastor Bill Sasso, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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This is Pastor Bill Sasso wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Before I return to our guests I have just a couple of important announcements to make. First of all, please mark on your calendars for this

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. Dr. White always has something of great value to tell our listeners and this

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He is going to be talking about five foundations for winning the war in your own mind and it's a persecution survival guide.

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Who knows what kind of persecution awaits us? Many people laugh at that idea when they are sitting in the comforts of their own home in a country that has as much liberty and freedom as we enjoy.

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James R. White will be on to talk about five foundations how to win the war in your own mind, a persecution survival guide.

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Also, folks, please keep praying for Wody Baucom. You've been hearing his name repeated in our ads for the

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G3 conference where I will be manning an exhibitors booth again for the fourth year in a row in Atlanta, Georgia, September 30th through October 2nd.

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Wody Baucom had his name originally on the roster of speakers and now there's a question mark because of his health setback whether or not he will be well enough by the fall to participate.

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As many of you heard and some of you may not know Wody Baucom required quadruple bypass surgery.

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Thankfully, the surgery was successful but we have been told he has a long road ahead of recovery.

01:12:48

So please pray for him as he is home with his family recuperating. When I say home, he's actually, I believe still in the

01:12:54

United States but he's with his family and obviously hopes to return to Zambia, Africa where he is currently ministering with my friend,

01:13:03

Dr. Conrad Mbewe at African Christian University and Kabwatha Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia.

01:13:10

But please pray for Wody Baucom. I sure hope that he is a part of the G3 conference this fall.

01:13:16

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01:13:25

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01:16:08

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a local Bible believing church, no matter where on the planet earth you live,

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and put I need a church in the subject line. I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today.

01:16:40

And that's chrisarnson at gmail .com. We are in part three of a discussion that we began some months ago.

01:16:50

Coronavirus and the leadership of the Christian church is sacred, trust broken. Dr. Joel Yeager, if you could, there is a lot of apprehension, especially amongst

01:17:04

Christians, it seems, about the coronavirus vaccines. And I've just heard recently, a lot of apprehension amongst the black population at large.

01:17:19

And there seems to be disagreement about how safe these vaccines are, whether or not the reports of many deaths are fabricated, whether the vaccines contain aborted fetal tissue, all that kind of thing.

01:17:34

If you could give us your comments. Sure, thank you. I'm going to hit three points briefly, and then

01:17:42

Dr. O 'Rourke will expand a little bit on what I'm going to say. The first thing, and I'm structuring this around the letter

01:17:48

E, so three E's for the listeners to remember. The first E is experimental. I think it's very important for patients to realize that, or the population in general to realize that these vaccines are experimental in nature.

01:18:03

I'm surprised the number of people who don't actually understand that. This vaccine is not approved.

01:18:08

None of these vaccines are approved. In fact, I was on the FDA website just recently.

01:18:13

And as early, or as late as earlier this month, this line appeared.

01:18:19

There is no approved vaccine for COVID -19. The general public doesn't seem to be aware of that.

01:18:26

So these are operating under the Federal Emergency Use Authorization, or EUA, which typically it takes minimum four, sometimes up to 10 years for a vaccine to go through all of the experimental models, including animals first, followed by humans, second of all, in three different phases.

01:18:48

Usually a minimum of four years and often up to 10. And of course, we've had this being, shall

01:18:54

I say, forced on the world population in a short amount of time. So they are experimental.

01:19:01

That's a very important thing to realize. So when you actually get the vaccine, you're being enrolled in the largest clinical trial that's ever been undertaken.

01:19:12

And people also need to realize that with this experimental thing, you're being followed for two years.

01:19:18

And I'd like to read from a footnote. This is a paper that's available on our website, heritagefamilyhealth .org.

01:19:25

This pharma executive confirmed that the millions of Americans who will receive the COVID -19 vaccine will be monitored via incredibly precise tracking systems.

01:19:35

That's quote, that will ensure that patients each get two doses of the same vaccine and to monitor them for adverse health effects.

01:19:43

That would be participated in by tech giants, Google and Oracle, although it did not specify their exact roles beyond helping to collect and track vaccine data.

01:19:55

So these are experimental. Second of all, I'd like to think just briefly about the effectiveness of the vaccine.

01:20:03

So the vaccine manufacturers and Dr. O 'Rourke will talk a little bit more about the specifics of some of the vaccines.

01:20:09

The manufacturers say they're 90 to 95 % effective. So to the unsuspecting public, that sounds great.

01:20:16

But of course you have to ask yourself the question, 90 to 95 % effective against what?

01:20:21

So a typical vaccine is designed to prevent you from getting the illness you're being vaccinated against.

01:20:27

That is not the case in any of these four vaccines. None of the manufacturers even suggest that this vaccine will prevent you from getting the illness or COVID -19 in this case.

01:20:40

It's rather supposed to prevent you from getting a more severe case of COVID -19 should you actually be exposed to the virus down the road.

01:20:49

So that's a very, very not too subtle difference that people need to actually think about in terms of effectiveness.

01:20:55

So you have to realize that the CDC, this is CDC data for people under the age of 70, if you contract

01:21:05

COVID -19 as a disease, people under the age of 70 have a 99 .5

01:21:12

% survival rate without any treatment. That's actually without any outpatient treatment, 99 .5%.

01:21:19

If you're over 70, it drops to about 94 .5 to 95%. So the effectiveness in getting the actual illness and allowing your body's immune system, as God has created it, to fight it off and give you immunity is actually higher than the proposed 90 to 95 % effective rate.

01:21:42

Of course, one always has to realize that when a manufacturer dates an effective rate, it's probably exaggerated.

01:21:49

It's probably not actually that much. And then the third thing, you mentioned this a bit, Chris, is end result.

01:21:55

So the vaccine is supposed to prevent you from getting a more severe case, but what if it actually does the exact opposite?

01:22:03

And Dr. O 'Rourke will talk about some of the effects, but I wanted to just mention one thing. So there's a concept known as pathogenic priming.

01:22:11

And in the previous several decades when coronavirus vaccines were actually attempted, because they had been being attempted for a couple of decades and they have never been successful, why?

01:22:21

Because the researchers noticed something called pathogenic priming or antibody -dependent enhancement.

01:22:28

And they saw this in ferrets particularly. So you gave the ferrets the first dose of vaccine.

01:22:34

Four weeks later, you gave them the second dose of vaccine, the booster dose. And then four weeks after that, you exposed them to the wild virus.

01:22:42

In many cases, the ferrets actually just simply died because their immune system had been primed.

01:22:48

And when they actually encountered the wild virus, the immune system went into overdrive and overwhelmed the host, which is a fancy way of saying that it killed the host.

01:22:57

And so in relation to the reported deaths, those are not exaggerated. There's a website called

01:23:05

Eudra Vigilance. It's actually a European website that tracks, it's a European database that's tracking adverse drug reactions to all sorts of drugs, but particularly in relation to COVID.

01:23:17

And there's no place on that website where you can actually see the complete tally. You have to go through each line of deaths and tabulate it.

01:23:26

So some dear soul, a subscriber to this website in Europe, has volunteered to do this and tallies up the data individually.

01:23:36

It takes a massive amount of time. But as of April 17th, and I'm reading from a screenshot, there were 7 ,766 deaths resulting from the four

01:23:48

COVID vaccines and 330 ,218 injuries. And I did not go through and verify that, but I started through the tabulating data, and I can easily see that those numbers are entirely accurate because they're all there in a sophisticated spreadsheet.

01:24:04

So that is the end result that people need to be aware of. Now, why would the consumer, the listening public trust that website?

01:24:15

Because it's actually, it's a scientific database. The database is called European Database of Suspected Adverse Drug Reaction Reports.

01:24:25

I think it's a part of the European Union. I'm not 100 % certain of that. The actual site is

01:24:30

Udra Vigilance. And it's a very technical website because when you go on, you can look at cardiovascular events, neurologic events, skin issues.

01:24:45

Also, there's about 25 different things. And whenever you click on it, it takes you to the actual number of patients.

01:24:51

So this is just data that's been reported, similar to our American Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, which is a part of the

01:24:59

U .S. government. And we know that that's called VERS for short. We know that that usually under -represents adverse events very, very, very significantly.

01:25:10

So this is sort of the European counterpart of the VERS used here in America. So are those numbers only in Europe, the 7 ,000?

01:25:20

I think. I can't verify that for certain. It wasn't clear when I was reviewing this website over the weekend if that was reviewing just European data or if it was reviewing worldwide data.

01:25:31

It seemed to have been European data, but I can't vouch for that. Because they keep repeating on, like, even a conservative network like Fox News, they keep repeating, like, two people who died.

01:25:42

I mean, is that... No, that's not true at all. I get emails on an almost daily basis.

01:25:50

And these are case reports. You can go out and read the newspaper articles, you know, 40 -year -old died, 24 -year -old died, 54 -year -old died, 32 -year -old died.

01:26:00

Literally, I get those on a daily basis. And I go and read the stories and it's heartbreaking. And Dr.

01:26:06

O 'Rourke? Yes, Dr. Yeager did an outstanding job. I'd just like to summarize a few other points.

01:26:14

Getting to the experimental nature of these vaccines is also important for anyone considering these vaccines.

01:26:22

If you do experience a vaccine injury, or unfortunately, if death were to occur, the manufacturers and the administrators of these vaccines have very, very limited liability.

01:26:35

And in most cases, if someone were to become permanently paralyzed, that has been a reported side effect, at least in association with these vaccines.

01:26:45

Of course, the long -term care of these patients is hundreds of millions of dollars. So there is a special separate little vaccine court that I believe has been set up, but you have to go prove your case.

01:26:57

And I think, I'm not 100 % certain of this, but I think the most money that someone can get who is severely vaccine injured would be about $250 ,000.

01:27:06

So that's a very, very important thing. Another important aspect, if someone is considering this vaccine, it would be very important if that individual has disability or life insurance, to check to see if this scenario would even be covered.

01:27:24

There are many policies that will exclude experimental therapies, so -called acts of God, war, rioting, those things are often excluded in disability and life insurance policies, property insurance, and so forth.

01:27:38

So I think that's a very important thing people should do as well. I just wanted to briefly just cover just the differences in these various vaccines.

01:27:48

A lot of our audience is probably very familiar with the J &J vaccine. It's been in the news due to the blood clotting problems that have occurred in association with this.

01:28:00

So basically, what we want to cover is just exactly how these things work.

01:28:07

The Pfizer and the Moderna vaccines are what are called messenger RNA vaccines. They have a small piece of genetic code, and it's encased in a little lipid particle that is very microscopic that is injected into the arm muscle and then through the microcirculation is distributed throughout the body.

01:28:26

It appears that different people will respond in different ways.

01:28:35

But in essence, how these things work is that the RNA gets into the machinery of the cell, not the nucleus, but the machinery to make proteins.

01:28:44

And in this particular case, it is to make a spike protein to the coronavirus.

01:28:50

And then these spike proteins will be expressed, and then your immune system will recognize that as a foreign invader and then develop an immune response to it.

01:29:01

This is the very definition of autoimmunity. There are many of us in the medical profession that while we acknowledge this is very clever technology, this does not seem to be a very good idea, and certainly one not to be rushed to market, as Dr.

01:29:15

Yeager has pointed out. So that's how the messenger RNA vaccine works. The J &J is a different type.

01:29:21

It has the same end result. It still results in the expression of the spike protein, but what it does is a

01:29:29

DNA vaccine. And what they do is they take a chimpanzee adenovirus.

01:29:36

It's a virus that causes a cold in chimps, and it's not known to infect humans.

01:29:42

They inactivate the virus, so whenever it gets into the human, it will not replicate as an adenovirus.

01:29:49

What they have done is they have taken the genetic material in nature that was found in that adenovirus and placed the

01:29:55

DNA, which through a complex process will also express the spike protein. So they're basically adding an extra step, but you still get the end result.

01:30:05

Just to talk about one potential side effect of blood clotting issues, the reason that this appears to be a very common side effect, and we've seen a number of patients even in very close proximity to receiving the vaccine that have developed blood clots in their veins, of the legs, in the lungs.

01:30:26

Some people will develop heart artery clots, which could cause heart attack and so forth.

01:30:33

But basically, because this genetic material is going through the bloodstream, it would stand to reason that the blood vessel cells would be the most apt to take up this messenger

01:30:48

RNA or DNA, as the case may be, and express the spike protein. And through a complex process, this could activate clotting factors and blood clots would form.

01:30:57

And then, of course, you have the catastrophic clinical consequences that have been seen.

01:31:03

So those are a couple of points I wanted to make. Another important area is, what do

01:31:08

Christians do, especially from an employer, employee standpoint? And being a compliance officer,

01:31:14

I thought Ernie would be very much expert in addressing the issue of what do Christians do in the event in the future that these vaccines are required with the condition of employment.

01:31:26

In fact, we'll have Ernie do that when we come back from our final break, which will be much more brief than the other breaks.

01:31:33

Also, I want to have the question answered about the fetal tissue being used, if at all, in any of the vaccines being advertised and promoted.

01:31:45

Remember, folks, if you'd like to join us on the air, we do have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

01:31:52

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01:32:01

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01:41:06

That's lynnbrookbaptist .org Welcome back and if you could, Ernie Springer, take the cue from,

01:41:14

I believe it was Dr. O 'Rourke who said that you had some insight on how employees are to respond to any kind of restrictions or mandates that their employers might try to enforce upon them if they refuse to take the vaccines.

01:41:32

I think that's what he was referring to. Yes, Chris, as he alluded to the fact of being a compliance officer,

01:41:40

I take exception to the word expert to use, but those compliance officers in every industry,

01:41:49

I'm in the banking side and of course, there's multiple regulations and personally,

01:41:56

I wanted to consider this. I also wanted to consider it as to how the bank rightly approaches this in order to maintain compliance with regulations and hopefully, maybe this could be some good news, but it's not good news without effort on the part of the

01:42:10

Christian. As has been clearly stated by the doctors very well, this is an experimental vaccine and it is interesting that some institutions may all,

01:42:25

I'm not saying banking, I believe it's banking yet, but some companies are mandating their employers to get this, but certainly, once it is approved and no longer deemed experimental in the technical sense, many others will be requiring it.

01:42:39

I believe that Christian conscience and specifically religious, I use that word as it's generally used in regulations and so forth, we know there's negative side to religion, so to speak, but religious convictions, they come into play.

01:42:54

Religion is a protected status under the Federal Civil Rights Act and in regard to employment as well as other situations, it is an act of discrimination to require someone to go against their religion or their religious beliefs.

01:43:12

The difficulty is in being able to clearly establish the religious view and particularly its meaning.

01:43:21

You can't just say, well, I have a religious view that doesn't like the color purple.

01:43:26

That might be a little difficult to establish. There's two possibilities that come to mind in this area of religious civil rights.

01:43:35

First is the concern over potential dangerous side effects and even the risk of death, all of which may require the effort of cataloging the factual statistics associated with those side effects, proven to have occurred with each of the vaccination incidents combined with testimony of doctors and scientists who will affirm these sorts of things.

01:44:02

Like as in anything, you need details and data and evidence and using the word evidence,

01:44:08

I guess I have to say that you probably need a lawyer, probably need a good lawyer and maybe a lawyer who has some medical experience or at least medical staff knowledgeable in their law firm.

01:44:24

The spiritual principle, obviously, would be the matter of the sixth commandment, thou shalt not kill, which includes self -murder or suicide and logically any action that might unnecessarily promote the risk of death.

01:44:38

Now, the second concern is the matter of aborted babies and the creation and makeup of the various vaccines.

01:44:45

And I, of course, can't speak to the medical aspect of that, but which ones contain ingredients allegedly from aborted babies or which ones used ingredients from aborted babies for testing, even if the final drug did not contain the ingredient?

01:45:02

If any of these aspects exist, then is there a moral issue?

01:45:09

I think there is. And I think the same sixth commandment comes into place to, and to claim to be a

01:45:16

Christian, we must claim to be against abortion and any association with any aspect of the use of baby ingredients, so to speak.

01:45:25

So there's one other final area, and that is the potential defense against the mandate for taking the vaccine by an employer.

01:45:32

And that is the Americans with Disabilities Act or the ADA. This act protects individuals who have a health condition or disability they believe prevents them from receiving that vaccine.

01:45:48

This of necessity, again, will require the employee to establish as fact their physician from a medical standpoint by some sort of documentation and or physician statement.

01:46:00

And but once that's done, however, an employer is generally and in almost most circumstances required to make an accommodation for that employee in a way that satisfies the protection of that employee's health condition.

01:46:16

So those are some areas that Christians who feel very exercised over this matter should start exploring, possibly now, if they anticipate their employer may require the vaccine.

01:46:30

Now, I was momentarily distracted. I heard most of what you said, but as far as fetal tissue being used in any of these vaccines,

01:46:41

Dr. Yeager or Dr. O 'Rourke, are you aware of this situation? Yes, Dr.

01:46:49

O 'Rourke, I'll take that. I had intended to mention that the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, messenger

01:46:57

RNA vaccines, they are completely synthetic. So there is no tissue being used in those.

01:47:07

The J &J vaccine, as I mentioned, it's an adenovirus vector vaccine. And we may have discussed this on the last time we were on the show, but viruses cannot replicate outside of a host cell.

01:47:20

So basically to reproduce the adenovirus in the manufacturing process so they can genetically manipulate it, it has to be grown on a cell culture.

01:47:30

And the cell culture, at least in part that has been used, has been embryonic tissue.

01:47:37

So the J &J vaccine, in my mind, especially for me, that would be morally objectionable at that point.

01:47:46

Well, let's take some listener questions. Let's see here.

01:47:51

We have Mike from Monroe, New York. And I just had

01:47:58

Mike's question in front of me. And while I'm looking for it, I will repeat our email address, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:48:06

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Here it is. Mike from Monroe, New York asks, can your distinguished guests address the genetic component involved in this vaccine?

01:48:19

The genetic manipulation of this vaccine via an RNA messenger has not been widely made known to the public or even given any significant discussion by medical experts.

01:48:31

Is this something we ought to be very concerned about? Now, I'll let you doctors choose which of you wants to chime in first.

01:48:42

Dr. O 'Rourke, I'll let you address that. I think you've already somewhat addressed that, but maybe you could do a question.

01:48:47

Yeah, we had talked about that in the last segment, but basically these RNA vaccines, they send a genetic blueprint to a structure called the ribosome, which is in every one of our cells.

01:49:01

And these ribosomes are where the various proteins of our bodies are manufactured.

01:49:07

And so, in essence, the hormone, so to speak, receives the blueprint and then tells the manufacturing process to make the spike proteins of the coronavirus.

01:49:21

Some of the concerns with this, of course, is it is not clearly known whether or not this process continues or not.

01:49:29

The manufacturers say that it's a temporary process and it most likely is, but we don't know for sure, hence the experimental nature of these vaccines.

01:49:37

But in nature, whenever the DNA from the nucleus of the cell through a complex process instructions to make proteins, once the messenger

01:49:50

RNA goes through the ribosome, the various components of that messenger RNA, they're called nucleotides.

01:49:56

They are just broken down by an enzymatic process when they just get recycled. But whether that actually happens with these messenger

01:50:03

RNA vaccines is unknown. And whether or not it turns off or whether it can be turned on again without another vaccine is a bit uncertain.

01:50:15

But it is important to note that the manufacturer, I think it was Pfizer, they're saying that another injection is going to be needed.

01:50:22

So basically it's going to be very much like an influenza vaccine where you have to take a once or twice yearly booster shot.

01:50:31

And so that is another very important factor to take into consideration if you're thinking about having this vaccine.

01:50:38

Okay, did you have anything to add yourself, Dr. Yeager, or is that sufficient for you? That's sufficient, thank you.

01:50:44

Okay, we have an anonymous listener who says, some of my close friends and also fellow members of the same church have not only experienced their own bout with the coronavirus, which was extremely terrifying for them and uncomfortable and painful, but they've also actually lost loved ones who died from the illness.

01:51:13

My question is, how do we respond to people like this who have been the victims of this when they think we are being insensitive or cavalier or reckless about being opposed to mask mandates and the current vaccines being promoted?

01:51:37

They will typically start the response to us as, well, you haven't been suffering the way

01:51:44

I just did from coronavirus, or you haven't lost a loved one the way I just did.

01:51:50

And it typically can bring a conversation that could have otherwise been productive to a complete halt out of embarrassment or fear of hurting the person's feelings further.

01:52:00

How do you respond to this? Well, I'll offer a couple of thoughts. First of all, just intellectually, that's understood as an ad hominem attack.

01:52:12

You actually attack the person, which is never an appropriate way to engage in a debate.

01:52:19

Having said that, there's always the personal experience. And I always try to be very empathetic with my patients because let's just say you have a one in 10 million adverse reaction.

01:52:33

And so you can talk about that from an epidemiologic standpoint, or you can talk about that from a personal standpoint.

01:52:40

Epidemiologically, one in 10 million is dropping a bucket. Personally, if you happen to be the one in 10 million who suffers an adverse event or perhaps death, that's very significant.

01:52:52

So you have to balance that. We're talking about public policy.

01:52:58

And when you talk about public policy, you have to speak about epidemiology. That doesn't mean we're being insensitive to the personal side.

01:53:06

In February, I actually got COVID relatively mild. My wife, on the other hand, got it, and she was quite ill.

01:53:14

Being a physician, I was able to care for her at home. However, she would have been in the hospital if I was not a physician.

01:53:20

So that was interesting for me to experience that personally.

01:53:27

But so you have to balance both. We're not being insensitive. I have patients when they die,

01:53:32

I always feel a personal sense of loss. And so I think, first of all, we acknowledge, yes, we feel that grief, we're empathetic.

01:53:41

However, that has to be balanced by the facts, which we've been talking about throughout the interview. So they're not mutually exclusive, they're actually complementary.

01:53:52

And any other response? Yeah, Chris, I was just going to say, I mean, you know, when it comes to, you know, believers, you know, we grieve with those who grieve.

01:54:02

And that's a principle that should be understood amongst brothers and sisters in Christ.

01:54:08

Moreover, you know, for those that we associate within our local congregations, whether it's as a whole or in smaller cell or home fellowship -type groups or Bible studies,

01:54:21

I mean, we should be sharing with each other, you know, what's going on in our lives and the lives of families, you know, and our concerns, prayer requests, you know, for health of ourselves or family and our neighbors and that sort of thing.

01:54:34

And there should be that constant understanding and loving, charitable communication between one another, even where we might disagree on the particulars of the subject like this subject.

01:54:48

So if there's a proper, healthy, working community of God's people should be able to deal with these matters, even of serious disease and loss, if we are, you know,

01:55:02

Christ -like in our attitudes and our actions and interaction. Uh, we have

01:55:10

CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, is the most frequent thing that I hear from people who are all on board with the mask hysteria is that it's common sense that it would help stop the spread of the coronavirus to wear a mask because masks stop droplets of spit from flying into someone else's face.

01:55:32

How do you respond to this constantly regurgitated argument? Pardon the pun there for the listener.

01:55:45

Do you want me to take that, Joel? Yes, please. Yeah, basically the argument is that if you haven't seen it, you can do so on, you can

01:55:54

Google it and there have been actual slow motion, high resolution videos taken of people sneezing.

01:56:01

And basically, when you look at those high resolution photos, it's not just droplets.

01:56:07

There is no doubt the masks will block the droplets, but it's basically the aerosol cloud where the droplets get smaller and smaller and smaller and then they're basically very, very tiny particles where they can't even be seen with the naked eye.

01:56:25

And a number of researchers have shown one of the reasons we have seasonal variability is because when the air gets humid, these particles fall quickly to the ground and become desiccated.

01:56:36

But in the wintertime, when the air is very dry and low relative humidity, some of these aerosol particles can stay suspended for days or even longer.

01:56:46

And so if there's small aerosol particles that would be likely to cause transmission, and so that's the explanation for why the mask cannot be protective.

01:56:59

It'll do a little bit, but there is some research that suggests that in susceptible people, only one virion, which is a one viral particle, can actually infect somebody.

01:57:08

So if that is indeed the case, then, you know, these masks are an exercise in futility for viral respiratory disease.

01:57:17

Now, when you said it can do a little bit, how do you respond to the person who says, all right, then we'll just stop a little bit.

01:57:23

How do you, I mean, isn't the harm... Yeah, that would be, again, that would also depend on whether or not you believe in the size of the inoculum is what they call this, you know, so how much do you have to get exposed to.

01:57:39

So from that vantage point, it would seem to me if the inoculum size is larger, then you're more likely to get infected.

01:57:48

But again, if it's true that only one viral particle can cause it, then that's a totally moot point.

01:57:54

But again, it's a mixture of probably droplets touching surfaces that have recent droplets on them, touching your mucous membrane.

01:58:03

But then this aerosol cloud does seem to be increasingly thought to be the source of infection in close quarters.

01:58:11

Outdoors, it's exposed very rapidly. And from what we've been saying, regardless of what you just said about maybe a little bit can be prevented, the harm that's being done far outweighs that.

01:58:25

Am I correct? Yes. Yes. I would agree with that completely. You know, the negatives far outweigh any potential benefits.

01:58:34

Well, I want to thank all of you who participated today. And you've all been superb as you were the other two interviews.

01:58:43

Everybody who sent in questions will receive a free copy of Coronavirus and the

01:58:49

Leadership of the Christian Church, the Sacred Trust Broken, if you send me your mailing address. And a couple of you who have been waiting on hold there for quite a long time to have your questions read, but we ran out of time.

01:59:04

You will get a copy of the book as well. I want to remind our listeners of some of the websites.

01:59:11

We have the Heritage Family Health website, my new doctor's office in Newmanstown, Pennsylvania, heritagefamilyhealth .org.

01:59:21

We have Ballad Health in Johnson City, Tennessee. Dr. O 'Rourke is involved.

01:59:28

That website is balladhealth .org, B -A -L -L -A -D health .org. And if you want to purchase the book, you can go to cvbbs .com,

01:59:37

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. And if they have run out of copies, they will certainly replenish them and get you a copy as soon as possible.

01:59:45

I want to thank all of you for participating, especially those who took the time to write in questions. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives,