June 20, 2018 Show with Dr. Cornelis P. Venema on “Children at the Lord’s Table: Assessing the Case for Paedocommunion”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

earth were listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 20th day

of June 2018 and I'm so delighted to have on the program for the

very first time ever on iron sharpens iron radio Dr. Cornelius or Cornelius

I should say P Venema, he is professor of doctoral studies and president at Mid

America Reform Seminary.

He's also a prolific published author and associate pastor at Redeemer United

Reformed Church in Dyer, Indiana and Indiana and co -editor and frequent

contributor to the outlook and Mid -america Journal of Theology today.

We are going to be discussing his very controversial book children at the Lord's table Assessing the

case for pedo communion and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to

iron sharpens iron radio Dr. Cornelius P. Venema.

Thank you, Chris.

I'm very pleased to be able to participate.

Amen and so on I I'd like to give our listeners our email address right away in the event that they

would have a question on pedo communion or infant communion that they have

a question about.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA and please only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you disagree with your own pastor

over this issue or your spouse or.

You're a pastor and you disagree with your own congregation or denomination over this issue or something to that effect.

Perhaps you believe in pedo communion.

You just you just don't want to draw attention to your identity.

Well We will grant you that request to remain anonymous, but if it's not a personal and private matter Please give us at

least your first name city and state and country of residence.

Before we even go into the topic at hand.

I'd like you to tell our listeners About your own personal background whenever I have a first -time guest.

I have them give a summary of their Salvation testimony.

I mean obviously there are many different Testimonies of how people are saved even though we're all saved

by the same gospel on the same blood of Jesus Christ and his work of redemption on the cross.

But there are different circumstances.

Some were raised in the faith others were not but tell us something about the religious upbringing you had if any and

how.

Providentially our sovereign Lord got a hold of you drew you to you drew you to himself and saved you

say that.

For many years

and the crew don't think

I'm timid this

may be

Controversial

for so

were

times in my life when

life and

in death

is that I

belong to my faithful Savior

Jesus Christ.

Amen.

And and when did you realize that God had placed a call upon your life to enter into the ministry?

And then obviously you also became a seminary professor.

I.

Began my college studies

as a pre

-law student

the end of

my first year.

Well

praise

God.

Can you tell us a little bit more about Mid America Reform Seminary?

I.

Would be happy to do so.

We are a seminary

that is not

our

United

Reformed Church in

America the

PCA turn be

able

to teach other.

It is a

rigorous

and now let's hear something about Redeemer United Reformed Church in Dyer, Indiana.

Demery United Reformed Church began about 11

praise God and I

know

that

a

lot of

folks

that were

of.

A Conservative bent Left the Christian Reformed Church denomination also known

as the CRC.

They left that denomination to join the URCNA the United

Reformed Churches of North America because of the collapse of the CRC

with liberalism and Things that are dangerously close to a passive

apostasy if not even crossing that line.

But would that would I be right in that explanation.

Yeah, and I know that there are some very Biblically sound folks who are still in

that denomination.

I didn't mean to broad brush.

I remember having a very wonderful interview years ago with Joel Neder hood.

Is he still in the CRC?

Yes Dr. Nader hood is he's in a Christian

Reformed Church in the area in South Holland.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I thought he was when you said the name of the city that immediately a Recall to my mind

Joel Neder hood who I really enjoy used to love hearing him on the radio and and seeing him on television and I had the honor

to Interview him and he also wrote a very wonderful endorsement for this radio

program, which I actually cherish among others.

The situation that we are going to be discussing today is Something that has

risen up amongst Reformed Christians.

Probably a decade or more ago.

In fact the first time I had heard that there were Reformed

Christians Presbyterian specifically that believed in infant communion.

Was I believe it was during the 1990s? when Dr. Robert Godfrey

debated to Peter Lightheart in Connecticut over the issue and dr. Robert Godfrey was

taking the historically reformed position that a

person had to be old enough to examine themselves before they could have

Entrants to the Lord's table and Peter Lightheart was defending the pedo communion

position.

But I was very surprised I can remember and I remember that I had somehow heard I was raised Roman

Catholic before I became a Reformed Baptist after my salvation.

And I had heard somehow that the Eastern Orthodox Have practiced for quite

a long time a pedo communion Centuries perhaps but I had never heard of Protestants doing it.

So if you could tell us something about the history of pedo communion and how it rose on the scene,

especially in the Reformed faith, but you could even begin earlier than that and by the way, I want to

Make it clear to our listeners that Dr. Cornelis Venema and I disagree

over the issue of the candidates for baptism.

Dr. Venema is a pedo Baptist or one who believes in infant baptism and I am a credo Baptist

one who believes in baptism for believers only but we Agree on this issue that we are

both opposed to the pedo communion position.

But if you could let us know about the history.

Well, we have a quite a long show so you could go back as far as you want.

Well in my book I

Make it

seems to

have

become

the

universal practice

children are baptized

then

and

now

and by the end

of the

bread

practice and

there is one

Swiss but even among

the

only

in

more recent

children

of

believing

parents

by our

failure and that's

aware

right

and so

to your

knowledge

in.

Modern history.

When did Presbyterians Begin to adopt this practice.

I was as I said earlier first introduced to this through hearing

Peter Lightheart Defending it and being involved in a debate in the 1990s.

Was it much Earlier than that that this rose on the scene amongst Presbyterians.

Well

at the

view

regard

of

now

believing

pair

there

may

be

reasons

Biblically

require

now.

What is the typical?

Argument against those that Believe in.

I guess you could call it credo communion.

What is the argument against the biblical data which indicates

that one Embracing or joining Believers

at the table of the Lord would have to be able to examine themselves.

How do they.

How do they discount that and still give.

Infants the table or the the

elements of the

table broadly cover so

they.

They maintain that if children are members of the covenant community the visible church and that

signified in CEO reason Lord

Advocative.

Which is a clever title another off the

argument being that the the

irony is that

title if a child could

ask.

Daddy, why have I been excommunicated and understand and understood what he was saying?

He might be a proper candidate to actually receive the Lord's Supper.

Exactly, that's one of the problems

with this view

table.

Yes. I have I

have visited argument.

I have

visited.

One church that practices pedo communion and they were the parents were giving the elements to

their infants taking a tiny crumb of the bread and

taking a little those little Lord's Supper shot glasses that we

many of us use and just tiny putting a tiny drop into the baby's mouth.

But yes, I saw that with my own eyes and everybody that I personally know.

Who believes in pedo communion does believe that the infants should be a

part of the Lord's Supper celebration.

Yes,

and

by

virtue of

the

Lord's

Supper one

further.

Regarding who

on coming

to that in

there till you're

on the part of the career you recognize.

So discerning the body means discerning who belongs to the body and

They'll use an

analogy

like

they're

members

of the

body.

That even

these

children

of

my

response

body and

in Recognition my main

argument and that's

the argument historical.

We have to go to our first state station break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen a gmail .com.

Please.

Give us your first name city and state and country of residence and Don't go away.

We will be right back with our guest. Dr. Cornell Venema and our discussion on

pedo communion.

Don't go away.

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We are now back with our discussion with dr. Cornelis P. Venema.

Also very often known as dr. Cornell Venema, and he is professor of doctoral

studies and president at Mid America Reformed Seminary in Dyer, Indiana and also

He is the associate pastor of Redeemer United Reformed Church in Dyer, Indiana.

He's a prolific published author and we are discussing his book children at

the Lord's table Assessing the case for pedo communion.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA and we have Chris in Runnels, Iowa.

Who says thank you for this informative discussion with dr. Venema.

I am curious if dr Venema could comment a bit on the connection between pedo communion and the

federal vision.

Well, you already did that for a bit.

It seems as if the strongest proponents of One are also adherence to the other.

Is this true?

Is there much of a push for pedo communion outside of the federal vision and

is pedo?

Communion by itself a dangerous error or is it simply a friendly disagreement those other

questions?

I don't believe that you addressed and One thing that I think we should clarify is I don't believe that

all federal visionists believe in pedo communion.

I know that my friend My old friend Steve Schlissel who is a part of

those that group that spearheaded the federal vision movement.

Steve and I have parted company theologically over that and other issues over the years, but

he At least eight or so years ago when I spoke to him about this when he

actually had a debate on My program about the federal vision when we were broadcasting out of

New York.

He did not at that time anyway believe in pedo communion, even though he was a federal visionist, but so

dr. Venema.

Even though you've already addressed the connection of the federal vision.

Is it exclusively being practiced in Protestantism?

That is amongst federal visionists and is this.

Is this a

dangerous

error

or is it

simply a

friendly

disagreement

party within

that

a number of

those churches?

Well, how is it a serious error?

Not only receiving the

sacrament

admitting

only believe

nurtured

in the

that

they

in the

mental

point by

any

means.

Well, thank you Chris in Reynolds, Iowa.

Please make sure we have your full mailing address because you have won a free copy of the book

by dr Venema that we are addressing today children at the Lord's Table assessing the case for

pedo communion.

Compliments of our friends at Reformation Heritage Books.

And you also receive that in the mail.

Compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV bbs .com who will be shipping that out to you at no

charge to you.

Or to iron sharpens iron radio.

Thank you so much for contributing an excellent question or series of questions to the program.

Today we have a CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York and

CJ says Reform Baptists and pedo Baptists among the Presbyterians

and Dutch Reformed have enjoyed great fellowship and even have had pulpit exchanges and

Fellowship together.

In many ways there seems to be a greater measure of alarm however over the pedo

communion issue than exists between our Reformed Baptist Brethren

and pedo Baptist Brethren.

Is there a reason why?

Those on both sides are more alarmed or disturbed by pedo communion.

Especially those on the pedo Baptist side of the issue.

Especially since this is a non salvific issue.

Neither group believes that communion nor baptism In any way

saves a lost child.

So if you could please explain why people seem to be more upset over pedo communion.

Than

they

are over

the

differences

between

Reformed

Baptists

and pedo

Baptists

and

made

known

public

believe

I need to give public for

the

discipline

and for our Understanding of what it means to be

a.

By the way, I will never hold it against you for sounding like a credo Baptist.

Now I'm giving ammunition to the.

We have Dwayne from Greenville, South Carolina.

Have you found that people who believe in infant communion are? argumentative

over this issue.

Well, I guess you could have argumentative people in any theological camp, but we you want to respond to Dwayne's question.

He has a couple more questions, too.

Not sure if I would say argumentative I think I

do think

in a way that is

not all the

Before God and his people that I do believe

that.

That's Rick

actually one of my students

I reject

that

acknowledge that Jesus Christ

is the and

that they also give

spirit

works through

the I

find

Advocates

they tend

to

make

the

issue in

teaching suggest that

their table and not

granted

anything to eat

or drink

live communicated through the and.

Dwayne also asks what has been your experience with bringing this topic to the

forefront?

I'm not a hundred percent sure what Dwayne means by that.

Perhaps he's talking about the the resistance or the negative

reactions to your critique or rebuke or rebuttal.

But perhaps if Dwayne wants to send another email to clarify but if you want to respond to what he has written.

What has been your experience with bringing this topic to the forefront.

My experience?

But my.

I wrote the

book but does

it stand up to

scream quite

and.

Dwayne's last question is why don't you see more arguments for or against this belief?

Well, it could be that it's a tiny minority in the church, but if you could respond to that.

Well, you gave part of the answer to that.

It's one doesn't

need is needed

it's my.

Well, thank you Dwayne.

You

have

also won a free

copy

of.

Dr. Venema's book that we are addressing today Children at the Lord's Table

assessing the case for pedo -communion published by Reformation Heritage Books.

Please give us your full mailing address in Greenville, South Carolina.

So we can ship that out to you.

And I Believe I may have failed to tell CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island that he's also won

a free copy of the book.

Let's see here.

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania and

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

What do you think is ultimately the real danger behind someone adopting a view of

pedo -communion.

Is It something that is really just an intellectual Theory that can

be debated and argued amongst brothers in Christ peacefully or does there have more

serious?

Consequences that you believe are awaiting.

Christians

holding

to

this

view.

Well,

we

have

to go

to our

midway

break

right

now.

It's a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida

requires of us a 12 -minute break between our two major segments because they have their own Advertisements and public

service announcements that they have to air.

So please be patient with us as we take this elongated break.

Use this time wisely to write down questions for dr Venema our guest today on the subject of

pedo -communion and also use this time to write down information provided by our Advertisers so that you can

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So We look forward to hearing from you and your questions at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at

gmail .com and please as always give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away God willing.

We'll be right back with dr. Cornelis Venema and our discussion on pedo -communion.

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iron radio before we return to our Discussion that we are having with our guests

today Cornelis P. Venema on pato communion.

We just have some more very important Announcements

to make in regard to special events that are occurring.

First of all coming up very soon on July 1st.

Sunday, July 1st.

My dear friend. Dr. Tony Casa Costa, who is the professor of apologetics and Islam at

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He is going to be preaching at hope reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York.

And that's Sunday July 1st.

If you want more details go to hope reformed li net Hope reformed li

.net the li stands for Long Island Hope reformed li .net or

call 6 3 1 6 9 6 50 7 11 6 3 1 6 9 6 5 7 11 the following Friday

Friday July 6th.

I am orchestrating and hosting along with New Covenant Church in New York City a

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Dr Tony Costa who is author and professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary from 6 30 p

.m. To 10 p .m.

That's going to be held at the First Baptist Church of New York City on the corner of 79th Street and

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This is a historic church building going back to the 1700s.

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The second session that night will be the dangers of cultural Marxism's impact on

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I've been in attendance at many events in New York City Promoting Iron Trip and Zion Radio, but this is the

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And of course, we are doing this along with our friends at New Covenant Church, New York City.

So I hope to see you there.

Then coming up in August my friend Pastor Mac

Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas Has orchestrated

an event that he has every year there in Denton.

It's the fellowship.

I'm sorry there in Portland, Maine, I should say even though he is in Denton, Texas.

The the event is held at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, and that is the Fellowship

Conference, New England.

That's August 2nd through the 4th and the speakers include the aforementioned

pastor Mac Tomlinson who is an author publisher and book editor and Pastor at Providence

Chapel in Denton, Texas.

Pastor Tim Conway who is pastor at Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas.

Pastor Jesse Barrington who is pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas and Pastor Nate Pikowitz who is

an author and pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmonton.

Ironworks, New Hampshire.

If you want more details about the Fellowship Conference, New England, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

Fellowshipconferencenewengland .com and then after that coming up in November.

Our friends at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual Quakertown Conference on Reform

Theology.

The theme is the glory of the cross.

That's going to be November 9th through the 10th at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania.

The speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson and Carlton Winn.

If you'd like to register for that go to alliancenet .org alliancenet .org and

After that coming up in January.

One of my favorite of all events.

This will be my third one where I will be in attendance at an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

The G3 Conference which stands for grace gospel and glory to be held at the Georgia

International Convention Center.

In College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta this will be held Thursday, January

17th through Saturday, January 19th and This event has the

longest roster of speakers that I've ever seen.

Annually this coming January the speakers include Paul Washer, John Piper Stephen J

Lawson, Voti Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson of John

MacArthur's grace to you ministry Josh Bice, who is the director of the G3 Conference?

Anthony Mathenia, who is Paul Washers pastor, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched

Radio.

Stephen Nichols, who is the president of the Bible College or the the college that R .C.

Sproul and Ligonier ministries founded the Reformation Bible College and More.

If you'd like to register for the G3 Conference go to g3conference .com.

G3conference .com you could also register to have your own exhibitors booth there if you have a

business ministry or parachurch organization Or church that you would like to

promote there.

They're expecting over 4 ,000 people.

So you can go to g3conference .com and please if you are finding out information about any of these events or

registering for any of them Please tell them that you heard about those events from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Last but not least.

The least comfortable time of the show for me again is for when I start begging you for money.

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Make out the check to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I Thank all of you who have really bailed us out out of a very serious dry

spell Financially and we now can breathe a sigh of relief and pay many of the

bills that we owe.

Thanks to you and also thanks to some new advertisers including the IRBS

theological seminary In Mansfield, Texas, which is launching its first

semester this fall.

We thank all of you at IRBs theological seminary for getting involved in an

annual contract of sponsorship With iron sharpens iron radio.

I'm so delighted about that.

You can I can't even I can't even say in the English language how delighted I am.

I'm also so thrilled that our friends at Linbrook Baptist Church and battery depot .com and the

publishers of The New American Standard Bible have all renewed their advertising contracts.

Thank you all and I just again. I'm almost speechless.

Thank you so much.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for our guest.

Dr. Cornelis P Venema on pedo communion.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA and Please only remain anonymous if your question involves

a personal and private matter we have Joey in Clifton, New Jersey.

Who asks dr. Cornelis?

With all due respect to your view I would like to ask you a question so that you can properly frame this

question.

I should tell you that I hold to a reformed Baptist View my understanding of what it

means for you to be a pedo Baptist.

Is that you believe that a child so baptized is truly part of the covenant community that being the case I do not

see what principle would exclude them from the communion table the case you mentioned earlier in

Which the Passover meal was being eaten and everyone who was part of the community was a participant

actually seems much more Consistent so my argument and please feel free to share your counter

comments is that a baptized individual There is one on whom we are putting the sign of the new

covenant Should also have access to the privileges of the new covenant one of which

is the Lord's table.

Dr.

Venema,

that's

great

question

the

argument

for

and then

you

look

at an

interesting

Similar to what what

does it mean to discern the body?

Yeah, I

believe

that you were.

Well.

Thank you very much, Joey and Clifton, New Jersey.

Please give us your full mailing address because you have also won a free copy of the book that we are dressing

children at the Lord's table assessing the case for pedo communion.

Compliments of our friends at Reformation Heritage Books and also compliments of our friends at CV BBS

comm Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service by the way, Joey since you are.

Since you live in Clifton, New Jersey, which is not very far from New York City.

You better be at that event on Friday, July 6th at 6 30 p .m

In the Upper West Side of Manhattan at First Baptist Church of New York City when we were having our

conference with dr Tony Costa.

If you do not show up, we are going to insist that you mail back all the books that you've won.

For the last couple of years for my interpreters aren't ready.

I'm just kidding there.

We have a listener in Slovenia Joe in

Slovenia who says dear brothers Chris and Cornelius, please address what I've

witnessed and consider to be a bizarre practice that is that after the

end of the worship service the unsaved Non -regenerate

unbaptized children, which obviously from the description sounds like this is a Baptist

congregation.

The children in attendance are allowed to consume the remainder of the Lord's Supper elements

wine and bread.

The thought seems to be that because these are actually only bread and wine.

And that they are being eaten apart from the communion ordinance.

It's okay for unbelievers to consume them.

What do you consider to be the relevant biblical teaching on this topic?

Thank you both for blessing us today, do you think there's anything

wrong with that?

I mean, obviously we have to be careful not to become too superstitious.

Over the elements, but what do you have to say about that?

Dr. Venema?

You know, that's a question.

Well,

thanks

Joe in

Slovenia

and

thank

you also for

giving us an

American

address

where

your

daughter

lives

in

Georgia.

Where we can mail a free copy of the book that you just won.

That is the book.

We are discussing children at the Lord's table assessing the case for pedo communion by our friend. Dr. Cornelis

P Venema.

Compliments of Reformation heritage books and compliments of CV bbs .com.

Please give us your full or your actually we already have your daughter's full mailing address in America.

Thank you very much.

That actually reminded me of the practice of some house church

groups.

Now obviously the first Christians met in homes.

There were no church buildings in the first century other than synagogues where the possibly Apostle

Paul preached and so on.

But um, I Know some not all I don't want to broad brush, but there are some house

church groups that have such an informal attitude towards the Lord's Supper that

They will have a buffet basically of food like a potluck dinner.

And they will have the elements of the table just there on trays for people when you're picking up your hot

dog and your beans and your potato salad you pick up your your

matzah or piece of bread and your little cup of wine or Grape juice and you you go off

into your your table and you have the Lord's Supper and then you start eating.

Do you think that that is a a Proper way of.

Viewing the Lord's Supper.

Is there enough reverence there Chris?

I'm not known for short answers, but on that one.

I Think

what's going on?

There

is

a

church

and

that is not

not we're

gonna

go to our.

We're going to our final break.

It's going to be very brief and now is the time if you'd like to send in your questions.

If you haven't already do it now or forever.

Hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And please give us at least your first name.

City and state and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And we do have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

I'm gonna ask his question and then you could answer it when we return from our brief final break.

Dr. Venema Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania says there seems

to be a very ecumenical position amongst federal visionists

When it comes to the Church of Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy.

Which I find to be a very dangerous position since they are clearly presenting a false

Gospel and in particular with the Church of Rome at the Council of Trent.

Do you see many federal visionists?

Becoming either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox and you can respond to that when we come back

from our final break.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with dr. Cornelis Venema right after these messages.

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Hi.

I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from

12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WL ie radio www

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We bring biblically faithful Pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

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Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs

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Yes, and please if you call in to that program a visit to the pastor's study.

Please tell the host Bill Shishko that you heard about his program from Chris Arns and an iron trip and Zion radio and

Send my greetings to him.

He is a dear brother in Christ that I have known going all the way back to the 1980s when I was a brand new

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Amityville the church where I was saved and baptized and he was a visiting speaker and we

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Former pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island, New York and now heading the

parachurch organization Known as Reformation Metro, New York under the

oversight of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

So please tune in to a visit to the pastor's study and call in as often as possible with your questions.

We are now here again with our conversation with dr. Cornelis P

Venema on Children at the Lord's Table assessing the case for pedo communion.

And our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and before the break our questioner said

do you are you aware of Many people who are federal visionists converting into the

Church of Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy.

Of course people from all backgrounds.

Even solid theological backgrounds like The United Reformed Church of North America and Reformed

Baptists.

Sometimes you hear about these stories of people converting to Rome.

But is there a do you see like any any higher volume in your experience of people converting

over?

From the from the federal visionists.

Yeah, that that is a very frustrating aspect that you mentioned.

I have friends in the federal vision.

I love them, but I am increasingly frustrated that they want to

Use terminology differently than has been used for quite a long time centuries perhaps but

like for instance.

There are some that would say anyone who is baptized In the name of the

Father Son and Holy Spirit is a true Christian.

That they are a Christian.

Now I might say somebody is a Christian by profession.

I may say that they are a part of Christendom.

But I would not call someone I suspect is a nominal believer a false believer.

I would not say that they are a true Christian just because they've been baptized properly.

I.

Would agree with that.

A.

Sort of a

view

of the

sacrament by

virtue

of it.

Well, you know

that that

leads me

to.

Something that I want to ask you to do because I'd like to have you back on the program

hopefully in the near future.

In fact when we go off the air I'd like you to hang on the line because I'd like to see if you could pick a date

For another interview, but if you could please explain for our audience Your book that I

want you to discuss the next time we're together the Lord's Supper and the Popish Mass.

That

deals

with.

Well, we

definitely

have

to have

you back

on the

program to

address

that.

You us you make a special reference In your

your book on Pato communion To 1st Corinthians.

In fact, and I have to enlarge this because I'm going blind I Have to

enlarge this on my screen.

But 1st Corinthians I

believe it is a chapter 1 11 through 17.

Or is it.

No, it's a chapter.

It's verse 17 through 34.

Yes, that's a chapter 11.

Right, yeah, I'm sorry, yeah, there is actually a typo on the website it has a 1st Corinthians 111.

Yes, this is a key passage for you in your discussion if you could discuss that a little bit.

I'm

glad

you

asked

that Lord.

Let

a

drink of

the cup

drinks

without

discerning

the body

each

to me.

You can make a

case.

Yeah, you know one of the things

that.

Immediately jumped into my mind here as you were reading and speaking

is that unlike Baptism and I'm not saying that

our differences that you and I have I'm not saying that they are unimportant.

I'm not saying that they are trivial.

I believe that every Presbyterian or Pato Baptist and Reformed Baptist

worth his or her salt as they say should take that issue and that difference seriously

not to the point where we are Barring one another from fellowship or barring our

pulpits from From pulpit exchanges or anything like that, but we should take these matters seriously, but

however There is it seems like there is a scarier consequence

to Handling the Lord's Supper incorrectly.

Not only because of bringing condemnation upon yourself.

But we we read in the Bible that people were getting sick and dying in the first century.

For for mishandling the supper you could comment on that.

Possibly

say

admittedly

in the

trivial and

let's see

we have.

We have let's see here.

We have Christian in Suffolk County, New York and

Christian says.

Is Pato communion permitted in any of the major reformed denominations

such as the URC na the OPC the PCA and other

very prominent reform denominations or are they unilaterally Opposed to

it officially.

Yeah, and

and some of

those sadly

and

I don't

want a broad

brush but you'll have people who are.

Known to be unrepentant homosexuals and all kinds of

People who are demonstrating that they are not regenerate or apostates.

Welcome to the table and even welcomed into the baptismal

font.

Want to be careful

here, right?

Yeah, and I didn't mean to broad brush because I have friends who are actually very Biblically

Orthodox in all of those denominations even in the PC USA.

I have some friends who are holdouts who are committed to the

biblical summary Provided in the Westminster Confession and so on and

In fact, I have had on this program people who are members of those

Denominations most recently somebody who is a member of the RCA who is a very biblically sound

individual.

But I don't but it's not it's not surprising anymore to hear about a particular Minister within

any of those denominations to be endorsing Same -sex marriage or something like that,

even if they don't have a denominational approval for it.

That's correct.

Well right now Before we run out of time.

I want to make sure that you have five minutes of time uninterrupted Where you

can summarize the things that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

The things that you believe are most vital to this discussion things that you may want to clarify and.

You

could

begin

that

now

very

much.

I think.

What's

that

the

long

term?

Well, let's see.

We have time for a couple more questions.

Let's see here.

We have Bob in New Rochelle, New York and

Bob says in your opinion should we ever Ever join

churches that practice pato communion if there are no churches near us.

That would disapprove of that practice.

I was about to answer that question by saying then

perhaps you

might.

Well that actually leads me to another question of my own.

And of course, we can't broad brush or know what's going on in every church.

But in your experience or to your knowledge are those churches and congregations?

That are promoting and practicing pato communion.

Are they?

Insisting or requiring that parents of infants and tiny

children Be given to the Lord's that the day the parents give the children the Lord's

Supper.

I

do

believe however that

probably also they

would they would

not.

Well, perhaps one day we can have a debate on iron trip and Zion radio between the

Advocates of pato communion and the opponents.

We'll see what the Lord has in store for us.

I want to thank you so much. Dr Venom of dr. Venoma for being our guest today.

I look forward to having you back and if you could hold on the line when we go off the air I'd like to try to schedule something with you on

The other book on the Lord's Supper that you wrote.

I want to make sure our listeners have all the contact information they need.

If you want to find out more about heritage books or Reformation heritage books Who published this

book children at the Lord's table you could go to the heritage books org heritage books org and

of course the mid america reform seminaries website is mid america dot

edu mid america dot edu and the website for Redeemer United Reformed Church in

Dyer, Indiana is Redeemer you are see calm Redeemer you are see calm

and don't forget you can usually get any book that you hear about on iron trip and Zion Radio from CV BBS calm.

CV BBS calm.

Thank you so much. Dr. Venom.

I want to thank everybody who listened today.

Especially those who took the time to write in questions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.