June 20, 2018 Show with Dr. Cornelis P. Venema on “Children at the Lord’s Table: Assessing the Case for Paedocommunion”

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth.

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We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 20th day of June 2018 and I'm so delighted to have on the program for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Dr.

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Cornelius or Cornelius I should say P. Venema. He is professor of doctoral studies and president at Mid -America

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Reform Seminary. He's also a prolific published author and associate pastor at Redeemer United Reform Church in Dyer, Indiana and co -editor and frequent contributor to the

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Outlook and Mid -America Journal of Theology. Today we are going to be discussing his very controversial book,

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Children at the Lord's Table, Assessing the Case for Paedo -Communion and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Dr.

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Cornelius P. Venema. Thank you Chris, I'm very pleased to be able to participate.

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Amen and so am I. I'd like to give our listeners our email address right away in the event that they have a question on Paedo -Communion or infant communion that they have a question about.

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Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Let's say you disagree with your own pastor over this issue or your spouse or you're a pastor and you disagree with your own congregation or denomination over this issue or something to that effect.

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Perhaps you believe in Paedo -Communion and you just don't want to draw attention to your identity. Well we will grant you that request to remain anonymous but if it's not a personal and private matter please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

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Before we even go into the topic at hand I'd like you to tell our listeners about your own personal background.

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Whenever I have a first -time guest I have them give a summary of their salvation testimony.

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I mean obviously there are many different testimonies of how people are saved even though we're all saved by the same gospel and the same blood of Jesus Christ and his work of redemption on the cross but there are different circumstances.

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Some were raised in the faith others were not but tell us something about the religious upbringing you had, if any, and how providentially our sovereign

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Lord got a hold of you, drew you to himself, and saved you. I would say that as someone who was raised in a

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Christian home my father was actually a minister for many years in the Christian Reformed Church in North America.

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I don't think I'm Timothy, a right -hand man of the Apostle Paul, but much like Timothy I knew the truth of the gospel from infancy.

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I was nurtured in the faith. I was, this may be controversial for some of your listeners,

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I was baptized as an infant but responded later in my teenage years by God's grace and the working of his spirit and made profession of my faith in a

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Christian Reformed Church. There were times in my life when

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I had a more keen sense of my belonging to the Lord Jesus Christ than others.

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I can remember times as a teenager the ministry of the word through my father's preaching touched me in a particular way but I still use the language of a confession that I hold dear as an expression of my own faith.

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My only comfort in life and in death is that I belong to my faithful Savior Jesus Christ who is fully satisfied for all my sins.

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Amen. And when did you realize that God had placed a call upon your life to enter into the ministry and then obviously you also became a seminary professor?

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I began my college studies as a pre -law student majoring in philosophy but somewhere in the course of that first year of study in college

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I couldn't get out of my mind a sense of the desire and at least well sometimes it's called the internal call to pursue the gospel ministry.

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I don't doubt that in God's providence the fact that my father was a minister and what I had witnessed in the course of his ministry made a deep and lasting impression upon me and so it was at the end of my first year in college

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I decided to pursue the ministry. I attended Calvin Seminary and then did graduate study of at all places

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Princeton Theological Seminary. I served a congregation for six years in Southern California and I've been at the seminary since 1988 which if my math is correct is 30 years.

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Well praise God. Can you tell us a little bit more about Mid -America Reform Seminary? I would be happy to do so.

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We are a seminary that is not officially owned and administered by a particular denomination, though I would say that the churches that are most closely associated with our school are

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United Reform Churches, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, the Presbyterian Church in America, the

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PCA, and a whole variety of Reform Baptist and other related churches denominations.

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We hold to the Continental Standards, the Heidelberg Catechism, the

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Belgic Confession, and the Canons of Dort as well as to the Westminster Confession of Faith, and our school is from its inception very much committed to what

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Paul says to Timothy, the things you've heard from us entrust those to faithful men who will in turn be able to teach others.

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So our professors are all ordained ministers, they've had pastoral experience, continue to be in the best sense of the term church men, ministers of the gospel, and so we combine what we would regard as a rigorous academic program of study for three years with a pastoral focus and in particular a preaching focus.

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And now let's hear something about Redeemer United Reform Church in Dyer, Indiana.

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Redeemer United Reform Church began about 11 years ago. I was in part one of the founding members.

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The church of which I was a member was the Christian Reform Church in South Holland, and I received permission from their church leadership to pursue the investigation of a possible new

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Reform Church in Northwest Indiana, and by God's grace that came to fruition.

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Our congregation is still relatively small, but it's been growing steadily. A lot of young families, a member congregation of the

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United Reform Churches, our pastor is a South African, Jacques Roots, and we preach, we believe the whole counsel of God, and we have a lot of young families, many young children in our congregation, and so I would say our congregation is, by God's grace, doing well.

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Praise God, and I know that a lot of folks that were of a conservative bent left the

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Christian Reform Church denomination, also known as the CRC, they left that denomination to join the

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URCNA, the United Reform Churches of North America, because of the collapse of the

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CRC with liberalism and things that were dangerously close to apostasy, if not even crossing that line, but would

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I be right in that explanation? Well, I try as much as possible not to speak too ill of my former church home.

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I think it's true, your general description is correct. The CRC, in my judgment, was losing its way in terms of its historic commitment to the inspiration and infallibility of the scriptures, and its commitment to a distinctively confessional

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Reform position. It manifested itself in a whole variety of ways.

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It was no longer a denomination within which I was at home, or one in which

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I could really freely communicate and preach and teach unhindered the things that I was taught within the

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Christian Reform Church as I grew up. Yeah, and I know that there are some very biblically sound folks who are still in that denomination.

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I didn't mean to broad brush, I remember having a very wonderful interview years ago with Joel Nederhood.

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Is he still in the CRC? Yes, Dr. Nederhood is growing older, as we all are, but he's in a

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Christian Reform church in the area in South Holland. Yeah, that's what I thought, where I thought he was. When you said the name of the city, that immediately recalled to my mind

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Joel Nederhood, who I really enjoy, used to love hearing him on the radio and seeing him on television, and I had the honor to interview him, and he also wrote a very wonderful endorsement for this radio program, which

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I actually cherish among others. The situation that we are going to be discussing today is something that has risen up amongst

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Reformed Christians probably a decade or more ago.

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In fact, the first time I had heard that there were Reformed Christians, Presbyterians specifically, that believed in infant communion was,

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I believe it was during the 1990s, when Dr. Robert Godfrey debated

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Peter Lightheart in Connecticut over the issue, and Dr. Robert Godfrey was taking the historically

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Reformed position that a person had to be old enough to examine themselves before they could have entrance to the

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Lord's table, and Peter Lightheart was defending the paedo -communion position, but I was very surprised

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I can remember, and I remember that I had somehow heard, I was raised Roman Catholic before I became a

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Reformed Baptist after my salvation, and I had heard somehow that the

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Eastern Orthodox have practiced for quite a long time a paedo -communion, centuries perhaps, but I had never heard of Protestants doing it, so if you could tell us something about the history of paedo -communion and how it rose on the scene, especially in the

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Reformed faith, but you could even begin earlier than that, and by the way, I want to make it clear to our listeners that Dr.

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Cornelis Venema and I disagree over the issue of the candidates for baptism.

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Dr. Venema is a paedo -baptist, or one who believes in infant baptism, and I am a credo -baptist, one who believes in baptism for believers only, but we agree on this issue that we are both opposed to the paedo -communion position, but if you could let us know about the history.

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Well, I'm not sure how far back in history you want me to go. Well, we have quite a long show, so you could go back as far as you want.

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Well, in my book I do review the practice to the extent that we can ascertain that practice in the history of the

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Church, and I make a number of points, one of which is the argument for the practice of paedo -baptism has more evidence for it as a practice early on present in the

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Church than does the practice of paedo -communion. As best as we're able to determine, paedo -communion seems to have become more common roughly in the 4th and 5th centuries of the

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Church's history, and it never was the universal practice of the Church.

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It has become the universal practice of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. When children are baptized in the

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Eastern Orthodox Church as infants, they immediately receive the sacrament by way of what's called intinction.

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Now, they may not receive the sacrament very often thereafter, at least in their infancy, but in principle the

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Eastern Orthodox Church, then and now, advocates not only infant baptism, but also infant communion, or paedo -communion.

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The situation is a little more complex in the Roman Catholic Church, but at the time of the

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Reformation, by the end of the Middle Ages, there was no widespread practice in the

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Roman Catholic Church any longer of what might be infant communion. Children would have their first communion typically after they were, as the language of the

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Roman Catholic Church puts it, after they were confirmed. Now, at the time of the Reformation, all of the major Reformers, without exception, there is one

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Swiss Reform theologian whose name escapes me at the present time, who made a case for infant communion, but even among the

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Reformers who were advocates of the baptism of children of believing parents, none of them argued for the practice of infant communion.

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Only in more recent decades, I would say roughly in the last 30 years thereabouts, has there arisen within the

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Reformed and Presbyterian community of churches a movement arguing for the receiving of the children of believing parents as soon as they're able so much as to take the elements and consume them.

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By virtue of their covenant membership, they should also be received at the table of the Lord. Now, this will interest you as a paedo -Baptist.

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The occasion within the Reformed and Presbyterian churches for this movement toward an advocacy of paedo -communion has been that while we as Reformed, who have this covenant view that argues for the baptism of the children of believing parents as recipients of the

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Gospel promise, we are inconsistent by our failure. In that sense, they share at least one opinion with paedo -Baptists, that if you receive children at the baptismal font, why don't you go all the way and be consistent and receive them as well as members of the church, the visible church, and recipients of the

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Gospel promise? Why don't you receive them as well at the communion table?

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That's why some of them will argue, rather than terming our position a paedo -communion position, we would prefer to call it a covenant communion position.

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I could say more about the history, but that's a broad -stroked account of the history as far as I'm aware.

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Right, and so to your knowledge in modern history, when did

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Presbyterians begin to adopt this practice? I was, as I said earlier, first introduced to this through hearing

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Peter Lightheart defending it and being involved in a debate in the 1990s.

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Was it much earlier than that, that this rose on the scene amongst Presbyterians?

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Well, it depends on how significant you regard the passage of a decade, but I would judge that, at least in North America, there were very few advocates, if any, of paedo -communion before.

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I use the term or phrase 30 years, so Peter Lightheart actually is a representative of an interesting movement that has occurred within the

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Presbyterian Reformed Churches in North America, sometimes known as the Federal Vision, a word federal deriving from covenant, and that's basically been their principal argument, that children of now -believing parents, as those who have been addressed by God together with their parents, as members of the covenant community, as was true of children under the old covenant, they should properly, as members of that community, be received at the table of the

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Lord. And most of the, what

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I would call, Napart family, or more conservative, confessionally Reformed and Presbyterian churches in North America, the

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OPCPCA, URC, and others, have all considered this question and responded to the

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Federal Vision, and as far as I know, they've all, thus far, with exceptions among more progressive, or if you prefer, more liberalizing

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Reformed churches, like the CRC or the RCA, they've all of them determined that the historic practice of the

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Reformed Churches is correct, that there may be reasons biblically for properly receiving children through baptism into the

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Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, but the sacrament of the

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Lord's Supper, being the kind of sacrament it is, quite clearly requires confirmation on the part of the one receiving the elements, receiving the sacrament, of a living faith, of an ability by means of faith to remember and proclaim and discern the body of Christ in receiving.

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Interestingly, one of the Reformed confessions, the Belgic, uses the phrase that when we receive the sacrament of the

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Lord's Supper, we eat and drink with the mouth of faith. In other words, we must be convinced, and there should be public confirmation given, that those whom we receive at the table, and who are welcome to commune at the table, have the kind of faith with which to discern the body, proclaim, and remember the death of the

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Lord Jesus Christ as a payment for our sins. Now, what is the typical argument against those that believe in,

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I guess you could call it, credo communion? What is the argument against the biblical data which indicates that one embracing or joining believers at the table of the

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Lord would have to be able to examine themselves? How do they discount that and still give infants the table, or the elements of the table?

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Well, basically the argument goes in the following way. They start with what

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I've already suggested with what could be called a broadly covenantal membership argument.

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So they maintain that if children are members of the covenant community, the visible church, and that's signified and sealed in their baptism, there is no reason to exclude them from the privilege that belongs to those who are members of the church of coming and receiving

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Christ at the table of the Lord. One advocate of credo communion actually entitled his book, arguing for it,

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Daddy, Why Have I Been Excommunicated?, which is a clever title.

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Another author arguing for credo communion who claims to be Reformed entitled his book,

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Feed My Lambs. The argument being if they're members of the community of Christ, the church, they should be nourished also by that means of grace, the sacrament of the

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Lord's Supper that Christ has given to the church. The irony is that title, if a child could ask,

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Daddy, Why Have I Been Excommunicated? and understood what he was saying, he might be a proper candidate to actually receive the

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Lord's Supper. Exactly. That's one of the problems with this view.

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It's not always clear whether they're arguing for receiving children at a younger age at the table, or are they seriously, and their position seems to be the latter, this one, that without exception, whatever they know or don't know, whatever response they may have made to the gospel call to faith and repentance, as members of the community, the covenant, they ought to be received on that basis alone at the table.

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Yes, I have visited one church that practices credo communion, and the parents were giving the elements to their infants, taking a tiny crumb of the bread and taking a little, those little

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Lord's Supper shot glasses that we, many of us use, and just tiny, putting a tiny drop into the baby's mouth.

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But yes, I saw that with my own eyes, and everybody that I personally know who believes in credo communion does believe that the infants should be a part of the

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Lord's Supper celebration. In principle, they do, yes. Now, I should add that there are more particular arguments that they offer for their position, one of the primary ones being an appeal to the

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Old Testament practice of Passover, and they argue that the children of the family were a participant in the covenant meal, the

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Passover celebration, and by virtue of the analogy between Passover and Lord's Supper, the

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Lord's Supper was clearly instituted upon the occasion of the celebration of the Passover by our

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Lord with his disciples. Just as the children allegedly were received at Passover, so the new covenant

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Passover, the Lord's Supper, they should be received at the Lord's Supper. And one further point that I would make is they argue that Paul's language, the

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Apostle Paul's language in 1 Corinthians 11, regarding who ought to come and how they ought to come and participate in the celebration of the

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Lord's Supper, that Paul is actually in a backhanded way making an argument that supports children coming to the

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Lord's table. When the text says those who come must have first discerned the body, that in their judgment is addressing the failure on the part of the

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Corinthian church to recognize that whether rich or poor, whomever the

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Lord embraces as belonging to his body, that is the church community, should be received equally and celebrate together and not in the divisive way in which the rich were excluding the poor or treating with contempt those who were poor in the congregation.

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So discerning the body means discerning who belongs to the body. And they'll use an analogy like this.

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When you call your children to dinner at your table in your home, you're implicitly discerning the body, that is you're inviting them to come because they're members of the body, the family.

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And so what Paul is addressing in 1 Corinthians 11 is a very particular problem, a practical difficulty in the

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Corinthian church, where there was division among factions within the church community, which in an interesting way, as I said before, in a backhanded sort of way offers us an argument for rightly discerning the body, that is recognizing that even these children are members of the body and therefore ought to come.

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Now the short version of my response to that is, Paul very clearly in 1

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Corinthians 11 uses the singular pronoun he who or whomever comes and eats and drinks, participates in the sacrament, they must come doing so in remembrance of Christ's death, they must come as those who are proclaiming by means of their participation at the table the death of Christ, and they do so discerning the body, and it's very clear in the context that it's the body and blood of Christ that is being discerned, in recognition that only by his broken body and shed blood and sacrifice upon the cross do we obtain the promise of the forgiveness of our sin.

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And so my main argument, and it's the argument historically of the Reformed churches, is that you must be a believer to meet those requirements, to participate in what

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Paul calls a worthy manner, as one who is able to proclaim, remember, and discern the body of Christ.

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The purpose of insisting upon these children within the covenant professing their faith, embracing the gospel promise, professing their faith, is to ensure that they come to the table in the way the

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New Testament and Paul in 1 Corinthians 11 particularly say that they ought to do so.

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We have to go to our first station break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence, and don't go away.

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We will be right back with our guest Dr. Cornell P. Venema and our discussion on paedo -communion.

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We are now back with our discussion with Dr. Cornelis P. Venema, also very often known as Dr.

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Cornell Venema, and he is professor of doctoral studies and president at Mid -America

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Reformed Seminary in Dyer, Indiana, and also he is the associate pastor of Redeemer United Reformed Church in Dyer, Indiana.

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He's a prolific published author, and we are discussing his book, Children at the

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Lord's Table, Assessing the Case for Paido Communion. Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

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chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. And we have Chris in Runnels, Iowa, who says, thank you for this informative discussion with Dr.

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Venema. I am curious if Dr. Venema could comment a bit on the connection between paido communion and the federal vision.

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Well, you already did that for a bit. It seems as if the strongest proponents of one are also adherents to the other.

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Is this true? Is there much of a push for paido communion outside of the federal vision?

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And is paido communion by itself a dangerous error, or is it simply a friendly disagreement?

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Those other questions I don't believe that you addressed. And one thing that I think we should clarify is

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I don't believe that all federal visionists believe in paido communion. I know that my friend, my old friend

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Steve Schlissel, who is a part of that group that spearheaded the federal vision movement,

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Steve and I have parted company theologically over that and other issues over the years.

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But he, at least eight or so years ago, when

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I spoke to him about this, when he actually had a debate on my program about the federal vision, when we were broadcasting out of New York, he did not at that time, anyway, believe in paido communion, even though he was a federal visionist.

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But so, Dr. Venema, even though you've already addressed the connection of the federal vision, is it exclusively being practiced in Protestantism, that is, amongst federal visionists?

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And is this a dangerous error, or is it simply a friendly disagreement?

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Well, to the first question, the federal visionists, I would say the predominant party within that so -called movement, are advocates of paido communion.

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Not all, but many, I would think the majority by far are. And that has to do with some features of their understanding of the covenant and the circumstance and situation of those as infants who are baptized.

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I won't go into that. There are actually within many, I used this language earlier,

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I don't know what would be the best language, but among more progressive, call them mainline, historic

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Reformed and Presbyterian denominations, I'm thinking PCUSA, RCA, CRC, some of the churches in Europe from which these churches have some of their origins, a number of those churches have done studies of the question, and many of them have taken what appears to be, in some respects, to be more of a paido communion or a greater openness to receiving children at a younger age at the communion table.

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I'm not sure that those churches have taken a strict paido communionist position, but they're certainly moving in a direction that allows local churches to receive children at almost any age without a profession of their faith at the table of the

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Lord. Now, is it a serious error? I don't know if the word heresy was used.

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I would certainly argue that it is a fairly serious error. It leads in historical practice to what was known as a halfway covenant, where you have non -professing members of the church not only receiving the sacrament but also permitted to present their children, if it's a paido -baptism kind of church, present their children for baptism, which over time certainly diminishes the discipline of the church in terms of admitting only believers together with their children and insisting that such children, if they're paido -baptist, that such children need to respond by the

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Spirit's working to what is signified and sealed to them concerning the

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Lord Jesus Christ in their baptism. I think it's a critical point, even in the discussions between paido -baptists and non -paido or paido -baptists, that it be understood that in the historic reform practice, even in a covenant context, the children who receive the sacrament of baptism are nurtured in the faith in order to prepare them to give a public expression, testimony, through a profession of faith, that they embrace the gospel that was signified and sealed to them in baptism, so that no one is ultimately a member of the church of the

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Lord Jesus Christ, in the proper sense of that term, if they haven't embraced by a work of the

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Spirit from the heart what the gospel word promises us in Jesus Christ. On that fundamental point, the difference between historic reform practice and that of paido -baptism is not as great by any means as it is with respect to these advocates today of paido -communion.

38:34

They're really saying that anyone, whether they've given expression of a living faith or not, is immediately, if a member of the covenant community, to be received at the table of the

38:45

Lord, and it would be my view that that doesn't appropriately supervise and discipline the table of the

38:53

Lord in a way that answers to what Paul teaches, for example, in 1 Corinthians 11. Well, thank you,

39:00

Chris, in Reynolds, Iowa. Please make sure we have your full mailing address, because you have won a free copy of the book by Dr.

39:09

Venema that we are addressing today, Children at the Lord's Table, Assessing the

39:14

Case for Paido -Communion, compliments of our friends at Reformation Heritage Books, and you also receive that in the mail, compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

39:26

who will be shipping that out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Thank you so much for contributing an excellent question or series of questions to the program today.

39:36

We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, and CJ says,

39:44

Reform Baptists and Paido Baptists among the Presbyterians and Dutch Reformed have enjoyed great fellowship and even have had pulpit exchanges and fellowship together in many ways.

39:58

There seems to be a greater measure of alarm, however, over the Paido -Communion issue than exists between our

40:06

Reformed Baptist brethren and Paido Baptist brethren. Is there a reason why those on both sides are more alarmed or disturbed by Paido Communion, especially those on the

40:19

Paido Baptist side of the issue, especially since this is a non -salvific issue?

40:24

Neither group believes that communion nor baptism in any way saves a lost child.

40:32

So if you could please explain why people seem to be more upset over Paido Communion than they are over the differences between Reformed Baptists and Paido Baptists.

40:43

Well, I'll give this answer to that question. I think especially when advocates of Paido Communion take a strong federal visionist approach to the significance of the sacrament of baptism, which in some federal visionists' thinking actually is a regenerating...

41:16

there's almost a baptismal regeneration doctrine being asserted.

41:22

And I think those of us who are covenant Reformed, non -Reformed

41:29

Baptists in our convictions, we see that as a serious problem because you have now removed what biblically is absolutely indispensable, and that is a working of the

41:48

Spirit. The Spirit, to be sure, uses means, the Word, as well as the sacraments, to communicate the grace of the

41:55

Lord Jesus Christ. But you ascribe to the means that we call sacraments an efficacy that almost makes the human response, namely faith and repentance, as essential to our embracing the

42:13

Gospel and becoming members of Christ and enjoying the benefits of His saving work. That has almost become dispensable.

42:22

And at a certain point, that means you're going to have a definition or an understanding of the

42:28

Church that, now I may sound like a Credo Baptist, will allow all kinds of unconverted people who haven't responded or appropriately acknowledged and made known publicly that they embrace by faith the

42:45

Gospel promise. They'll remain nonetheless members of the Church, and they can presume rather easily upon, for example,

42:53

I've been baptized, and I have a right to come to the table of the Lord, though I have never and don't believe

43:01

I need to give public attestation through a profession of faith that I have, in fact, experienced the working of the

43:09

Spirit bringing me to faith and embracing Jesus Christ for salvation. I think that has very troubling implications long term for the discipline and for our understanding of what it means to be a member of Christ and a member of His Church.

43:26

By the way, I will never hold it against you for sounding like a Credo Baptist. Now I'm giving ammunition to those who are arguing for paedo -communion.

43:39

We have Dwayne from Greenville, South Carolina. Have you found that people who believe in infant communion are argumentative over this issue?

43:52

Well, I guess you could have argumentative people in any theological camp, but you want to respond to Dwayne's question.

43:58

He has a couple more questions, too. I'm not sure if I would say argumentative.

44:04

I think it's a generalization. Certainly some of them are, but some people who agree with me are also argumentative.

44:10

I do think that they tend to overstate their argument, and they also tend to represent the traditional view of the

44:19

Reformed churches in a way that is not altogether fair, you know, suggesting that it's a backhanded way of excommunicating these children, or they'll oftentimes represent the profession of faith that I've been talking about, a public declaration before God and His people that I do believe and accept the gospel promise by faith in Jesus Christ, that that's required prior to being received at the

44:50

Lord's Supper. Actually, one of my students, a former student who holds a paedo -communion viewpoint, he likes to represent that as though there's a high mountain that we need to climb over before we're allowed to come and sit at the table of the

45:07

Lord, and I reject that. All we ask is that, if I may use the language of the

45:14

Heidelberg Catechism, that those who profess their faith acknowledge that they're sinners in need of God's grace toward them in Christ, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the only mediator and that His shed blood and atoning sacrifice is the only basis upon which we can be received into favor with God, and that they also give evidence and can attest that it is their heartfelt desire to live a life that is pleasing to God.

45:41

Those are the three elements of true faith that the Spirit works through the gospel, that someone who professes that faith needs to demonstrate prior to being received at the table of the

45:54

Lord. So I find advocates often, especially federal vision advocates of paedo -communion, to oftentimes over -argue.

46:07

I don't know if that's argumentative. Oftentimes represent, in the form of a straw man, the position against which they're arguing, and they tend to make the issue far more important and critical than I think we should grant them.

46:28

One of the things I argue in my book is, whether such children are received at the table of the Lord or not, they are nourished and they are recipients in a

46:37

Reformed church of the regular ministry of the Word of God through preaching and teaching. So to suggest that they're not being fed or they're like children who are being kept from the table and not granted anything to eat or drink seems to me foolish.

46:53

They are being fed by the Word of God, and that's not to diminish the sacrament, but it is simply to elevate and give proper and primary place to the nurturing that takes place in the bread of life communicated through the ministry of the

47:13

Word. And Duane also asks, what has been your experience with bringing this topic to the forefront?

47:22

I'm not 100 % sure what Duane means by that. Perhaps he's talking about the resistance or the negative reactions to your critique or rebuke or rebuttal, but perhaps if Duane wants to send another email to clarify.

47:40

But if you want to respond to what he has written, what has been your experience with bringing this topic to the forefront?

47:47

My experience has been that within the Reformed and Presbyterian church context, advocates of a new view, particularly of paedo -communion, have done most of the writing and arguing and polemicizing.

48:06

And there are very few, there are more now, there are other studies like mine that have come out. But I wrote the book actually out of,

48:16

I trust, an honest desire to take a fresh look at the question. I was motivated by a desire not to take the position

48:25

I take simply by reason of custom or tradition, but does it stand up to scrutiny in terms of the scriptures, the history of the church, the language of the confessions?

48:38

And so I wanted to take very seriously the arguments of paedo -communionists and see whether they have, and I could be persuaded.

48:47

Well, as my book will indicate, I was not persuaded, though I do think

48:52

I take quite a bit of pain to give the best possible representation, fairest representation that I can of the paedo -communion argument.

49:05

I just don't find them ultimately satisfying. And Dwayne's last question is, why don't you see more arguments for or against this belief?

49:15

Well, it could be that it's a tiny minority in the church, but if you could respond to that? Well, you gave part of the answer to that.

49:23

One doesn't need to give more attention to an issue than the number of people promoting it suggests is needed.

49:37

It's my sense that, I'm not saying that my book is responsible for that, but I think books like mine and others who have written, as I do, in response to the arguments of people who advocate paedo -communion have, in some respects, been effective, persuasive, so that the zeal and ardor with which advocates of paedo -communion pursue the matter is, in some sense, in my estimation, declining.

50:09

I think they've recognized that they haven't been successful in making their case.

50:19

Well, thank you, Dwayne. You have also won a free copy of Dr.

50:24

Venema's book that we are addressing today, Children at the Lord's Table, Assessing the

50:30

Case for Paedo -Communion, published by Reformation Heritage Books. Please give us your full mailing address in Greenville, South Carolina, so we can ship that out to you.

50:39

And I believe I may have failed to tell CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, that he's also won a free copy of the book.

50:49

Let's see here, we have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, and Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania says,

51:01

What do you think is ultimately the real danger behind someone adopting a view of paedo -communion?

51:09

Is it something that is really just an intellectual theory that can be debated and argued amongst brothers in Christ peacefully, or does there have more serious consequences that you believe are awaiting

51:23

Christians holding to this view? That's a good question.

51:29

I don't want to be guilty of exaggerating the unhappy consequences of this position.

51:37

I do, as I've already suggested, think it creates serious practical questions and problems for the

51:44

Church in the exercise of what I call discipline, and in the

51:51

Church's ability through its officers to insist that it be a community of people who are expected to give expression and not to be free or uh admitted to enjoy all of the privileges of communicant membership until they do so to give expression to their heartfelt faith and testimony to a work of God's grace in their lives.

52:20

That when I referred earlier to a halfway covenant context, I would anticipate that over time the worry that some

52:32

Credo Baptists have about the implications and consequences of infant baptism would, in my judgment, be more likely to be true in the context of a

52:47

Church that practices paedo -communion. How can you excommunicate, in the sense of an extreme form of discipline, a person who's never actually themselves, for themselves, spoken and testified to their their faith and having thereby been admitted into the full communion of Christ and his

53:07

Church? I like to think of baptism in relation to the Lord's Supper along the lines of, you are at baptism given the sign and seal of the promise of God's grace in Jesus Christ and incorporated into the body of Christ, but that also places you under obligations.

53:31

And in a paedo -baptist context, which is my context, one of those obligations is you must respond to what

53:41

God has visibly spoken to you in your baptism. You must say, yes,

53:46

I embrace, or no, I reject what this baptism means.

53:54

And if I'm truly a member of Christ, that will become evident in the testimony that I offer, the profession of faith that I make in response to the gospel word.

54:08

Just one last thing on that. There's only one word that God speaks in the gospel, and that is a word of grace and forgiveness through Jesus Christ and his atoning death.

54:19

That word is also spoken in the sacraments, but unless one ultimately responds to the sacraments, that includes even baptism, in the way of faith, that word is not a saver of life unto life.

54:37

It's a word that has been rejected. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now.

54:43

It's a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a 12 -minute break between our two major segments because they have their own advertisements and public service announcements that they have to air.

54:57

So please be patient with us as we take this elongated break. Use this time wisely to write down questions for Dr.

55:04

Venema, our guest today, on the subject of paedo -communion, and also use this time to write down information provided by our advertisers so that you can patronize them, and by doing so, elongate the existence of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio because we rely upon our advertisers' advertising dollars to remain on the air.

55:24

So we look forward to hearing from you and your questions at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

55:31

and please, as always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

55:39

Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back with Dr. Cornelis Venema and our discussion on paedo -communion.

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That's liyfc .org. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com. That's cvbbs .com.

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01:06:03

Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. Before we return to our discussion that we are having with our guest today,

01:06:12

Cornelis P. Venema on Paedo Communion, we just have some more very important announcements to make in regard to special events that are occurring.

01:06:24

First of all, coming up very soon on July 1st, Sunday, July 1st, my dear friend

01:06:32

Dr. Tony Costa, who is the professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, he is going to be preaching at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, and that's

01:06:46

Sunday, July 1st. If you want more details, go to hopereformedli .net,

01:06:51

hopereformedli .net, the LI stands for Long Island, hopereformedli .net,

01:06:57

or call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

01:07:04

The following Friday, Friday, July 6th, I am orchestrating and hosting, along with New Covenant Church in New York City, a free

01:07:16

New York City seminar featuring Dr. Tony Costa, who is author and professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, from 630 p .m.

01:07:24

to 10 p .m. That's going to be held at the First Baptist Church of New York City on the corner of 79th

01:07:31

Street and Broadway in Manhattan's Upper West Side. This is a historic church building going back to the 1700s.

01:07:39

The first session at 630 p .m. that night on Friday, July 6th, will be

01:07:46

Defending the Faith in a Post -Modern Society. The second session that night will be

01:07:52

The Dangers of Cultural Marxism's Impact on Society and the Church.

01:07:58

The third session will be a Q &A with the audience. We are also having an intimate gathering of pastors over lunch that afternoon at 12 at an undetermined location that we will keep you updated on.

01:08:13

But if you want more details about this event, you can call 646 -770 -2282 or email the

01:08:26

New Covenant Church New York City at nccnycinfo at gmail .com.

01:08:33

That's ncc for New Covenant Church, nyc for New York City, info at gmail .com.

01:08:39

You could also email me, chrisarnson at gmail .com. That's Friday, July 6, 630 p .m.

01:08:49

to 10 p .m. I hope that many of you in the Iron Trip and Zion Radio audience attend this event. This is my first event that I am orchestrating to highlight

01:08:59

Iron Trip and Zion Radio in New York City. I've been in attendance at many events in New York City promoting

01:09:06

Iron Trip and Zion Radio, but this is the first event in Manhattan that I have orchestrated, and of course we are doing this along with our friends at New Covenant Church New York City, so I hope to see you there.

01:09:18

Then coming up in August, my friend Pastor Mack Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, has orchestrated an event that he has every year there in Portland, Maine, I should say, even though he is in Denton, Texas.

01:09:39

The event is held at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, and that is the

01:09:44

Fellowship Conference New England. That's August 2nd through the 4th, and the speakers include the aforementioned

01:09:53

Pastor Mack Tomlinson, who is an author, publisher, and book editor and pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Pastor Tim Conway, who is pastor at Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington, who is pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, and Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who is an author and pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmonton Iron Works, New Hampshire.

01:10:17

If you want more details about the Fellowship Conference New England, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

01:10:25

And then after that, coming up in November, our friends at the

01:10:31

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

01:10:36

The theme is the glory of the cross. That's going to be November 9th through the 10th at the

01:10:42

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania. The speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Wynn.

01:10:51

If you'd like to register for that, go to alliancenet .org. And after that, coming up in January, one of my favorite of all events, this will be my third one, where I will be in attendance at an exhibitor's booth for Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:11:12

The G3 Conference, which stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory, to be held at the

01:11:17

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

01:11:24

This will be held Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th.

01:11:29

And this event has the longest roster of speakers that I've ever seen annually.

01:11:36

This coming January, the speakers include Paul Washer, John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson, Votie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M.

01:11:44

Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson of John MacArthur's Grace to You ministry, Josh Bice, who is the director of the

01:11:51

G3 Conference, Anthony Mathenia, who is Paul Washer's pastor, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen Nichols, who is the president of the

01:12:04

Bible College, or the college that R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries founded, Reformation Bible College, and more.

01:12:12

If you'd like to register for the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com. You could also register to have your own exhibitors booth there if you have a business, ministry, or parachurch organization or church that you would like to promote there.

01:12:29

They're expecting over 4 ,000 people. So you can go to g3conference .com. And please, if you are finding out information about any of these events or registering for any of them, please tell them that you heard about those events from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:12:43

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Thank you all, and I just, again, I'm almost speechless. Thank you so much. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for our guest,

01:15:07

Dr. Cornelis P. Venema on Paido Communion, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:15:14

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:15:22

USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:15:29

We have Joey in Clifton, New Jersey, who asks,

01:15:34

Dr. Cornelis, with all due respect to your view, I would like to ask you a question.

01:15:40

So that you can properly frame this question, I should tell you that I hold to a Reform Baptist view.

01:15:47

My understanding of what it means for you to be a Paido Baptist is that you believe that a child so baptized is truly part of the covenant community.

01:15:56

That being the case, I do not see what principle would exclude them from the communion table.

01:16:01

The case you mentioned earlier, in which the Passover meal was being eaten and everyone who was part of the community was a participant, actually seems much more consistent.

01:16:12

So my argument, and please feel free to share your counter comments, is that a baptized individual that is one on whom we are putting the sign of the new covenant should also have access to the privileges of the new covenant, one of which is the

01:16:28

Lord's table. Dr. Venema? Well, that's a great question.

01:16:33

I don't wish to offend anyone who is a Paido Baptist, but let me go at it this way.

01:16:42

I argue in my book that, assuming my view, which is that the

01:16:49

Old Testament practice of including children that was marked by the practice of circumcision as recipients of the promise and as those included within the covenant remains the case in the

01:17:06

New and, again, not to offend anyone, I think I have a proof text when

01:17:11

Peter says, for the promises to you and to your children and to as many as are far off whom the

01:17:18

Lord shall call. Having said that, I argue in my book that the administration of the two sacraments, first, baptism as a sacrament of incorporation or inclusion into the body of Christ, and the sacrament of the

01:17:36

Lord's Supper, the only sacraments that our Lord has appointed, is quite different.

01:17:43

The sacrament of the Lord's Supper, which is our focus, is a sacrament that, in the nature of the case, ought not to be one to which children of believing parents are invited without first making profession of their faith.

01:17:59

Now, part of my argument in this connection is that the argument for paedo -communion often acts as though the

01:18:09

Old Testament practice of the Passover, where allegedly children were all participating, is a basis for arguing that the children should also all participate in the

01:18:23

New. That argument really misreads the evidence. It's not at all clear to me that the regular practice of the annual feast that is observed, the

01:18:37

Feast of Passover, that if you read the Old Testament accounts, first in Exodus 20, where the sacrament, or better, the rite of the annual

01:18:49

Passover celebration was first celebrated, and then you look at Deuteronomy 16, which makes provision for subsequent

01:18:59

Passovers, you will not find evidence that all of the members of the household, the family in Israel, actually participated.

01:19:09

It was an annual feast in Jerusalem to which the male head of the household and a qualified male child would go to Jerusalem and participate in the

01:19:23

Passover meal. Now, there are a lot of complexities relating to this that I address in my book that I don't have time to discuss over the radio, but I'll just mention this.

01:19:34

In the account in the Book of Luke, the Gospel of Luke, of our Lord's going with his parents to Jerusalem in his twelfth year for the celebration of the

01:19:48

Passover is an interesting illustration of what was, so far as we know, the common practice under the

01:19:56

Old Testament. That is, that not all members of the household, as I said a moment ago, actually participated in the sacrament or in the

01:20:07

Passover meal. So, it really begs the question to say that because they participated in the

01:20:14

Old and the New Testament sacrament of the Lord's Supper substitutes for the

01:20:19

Old Testament Passover, therefore the children should be received at the

01:20:25

Lord's Supper. I actually think that the practice in the Old Testament, even the catechetical exercise that occurred at Passover, what is the meaning of this meal and so on, the question that was to be asked by one of the older children, is similar to what's true of the

01:20:45

Lord's Supper. Only those who know how to ask the question and know the answer to the question, what does it mean to discern the body, to remember

01:20:55

Christ's death upon the cross, to proclaim his death actively through receiving the

01:21:02

Lord's Supper? Only such person should be received at the Lord's Supper. Now, I don't know if I missed the question that was asked, but I hope

01:21:09

I was at least in range. Yeah, I believe that you were. Well, thank you very much,

01:21:15

Joey in Clifton, New Jersey. Please give us your full mailing address because you have also won a free copy of the book that we are addressing,

01:21:23

Children at the Lord's Table, Assessing the Case for Paedo -Communion. Compliments of our friends at Reformation Heritage Books and also compliments of our friends at CVBBS .com,

01:21:33

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. By the way, Joey, since you live in Clifton, New Jersey, which is not very far from New York City, you better be at that event on Friday, July 6th at 6 30 p .m.

01:21:48

in the Upper West Side of Manhattan at First Baptist Church of New York City when we were having our conference with Dr.

01:21:55

Tony Costa. If you do not show up, we are going to insist that you mail back all the books that you've won over the last couple of years from Iron Trip and Zarn Radio.

01:22:04

Just kidding there. We have a listener in Slovenia, Joe in Slovenia, who says,

01:22:15

Dear Brothers Chris and Cornelis, please address what I've witnessed and consider to be a bizarre practice.

01:22:23

That is that after the end of the worship service, the unsaved slash non -regenerate, unbaptized children, which obviously from the description sounds like this is a

01:22:35

Baptist congregation, the children in attendance are allowed to consume the remainder of the

01:22:43

Lord's Supper elements, wine and bread. The thought seems to be that because these are actually only bread and wine and that they are being eaten apart from the communion ordinance, it's okay for unbelievers to consume them.

01:22:57

What do you consider to be the relevant biblical teaching on this topic?

01:23:03

Thank you both for blessing us today. Do you think there's anything wrong with that?

01:23:09

I mean obviously we have to be careful not to become superstitious over the elements, but what do you have to say about that Dr.

01:23:18

Venema? You know that's a question I'm getting to be an older fellow that I've not heard before from any such practices that I agree with the comment you made.

01:23:32

We don't believe that the elements, the bread and the wine, that are consecrated or set apart for a use appropriate to the sacrament are changed into the actual body and blood of Christ.

01:23:48

So I would be hesitant to say that there's something intrinsically or necessarily sinful and disobedient about such a practice.

01:24:00

However, having said that, it seems to me the likelihood of misunderstanding, maybe even of unnecessarily giving offense, or even by allowing that sort of thing to be done, diminishing the seriousness and the reverence with which we participate at the sacrament and we regard the visible elements that have been appointed.

01:24:30

That's about as good as I can do at this point, but I agree there's something a little,

01:24:36

I don't know if I'd call it bizarre, but I would regard it as not a particularly appropriate or commendable practice.

01:24:48

Having said, of course, that I'm not in any way acknowledging or suggesting that those elements, the bread and wine themselves, become anything different by virtue of their appointment to use in the sacrament.

01:25:05

Well, thanks Joe in Slovenia and thank you also for giving us an American address where your daughter lives in Georgia, where we can mail a free copy of the book that you just won.

01:25:18

That is the book we are discussing, Children at the Lord's Table, Assessing the Case for Paedo -Communion by our friend

01:25:24

Dr. Cornelis P. Venema, complements of Reformation Heritage Books and complements of cvbbs .com.

01:25:31

Please give us your full or your, actually we already have your daughter's full mailing address in America, thank you very much.

01:25:37

That actually reminded me of the practice of some house church groups.

01:25:45

Now obviously the first Christians met in homes, there were no church buildings in the first century other than synagogues where the apostle

01:25:56

Paul preached and so on, but I know some, not all,

01:26:01

I don't want to broad brush, but there are some house church groups that have such an informal attitude towards the

01:26:08

Lord's Supper that they will have a buffet basically of food, like a potluck dinner, and they will have the elements of the table just there on trays for people when you're picking up your hot dog and your beans and your potato salad, you pick up your matzo or piece of bread and your little cup of wine or grape juice and you go off into your table and you have the

01:26:35

Lord's Supper and then you start eating. Do you think that that is a proper way of viewing the

01:26:44

Lord's Supper? Is there enough reverence there? Well, Chris, I'm not known for short answers, but on that one

01:26:51

I would say certainly not. I think what's going on there is a failure to make a proper distinction between the household of faith, which is the church, and the church in her life and ministry and conduct is under the oversight of Christ, who has appointed elders, those who acting on his behalf and with his authority to supervise and govern the life of the church, and that is not to be assumed by heads of households who may themselves be members of the church.

01:27:31

There's a very important distinction to be made between the household of faith, whose fathers spiritually are the church officers, not earthly fathers in the nuclear family.

01:27:45

I may be a covenant or a reformed theologian who has a high regard for the family and the way

01:27:54

God has structured the family, and even contrary to the position of the paedo or the credo

01:28:03

Baptist, allow children to be received into the community of the church through baptism, but I do not believe that we should confuse the church and her order and government with that of the family.

01:28:17

We're going to go to our final break.

01:28:22

It's going to be very brief, and now is the time if you'd like to send in your questions. If you haven't already, do it now or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:28:31

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, and please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the

01:28:41

USA. And we do have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania. I'm going to ask his question and then you could answer it when we return from our brief final break.

01:28:52

Dr. Venema. All right. Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania says, there seems to be a very ecumenical position amongst federal visionists when it comes to the

01:29:06

Church of Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy, which I find to be a very dangerous position since they are clearly presenting a false gospel, and in particular with the

01:29:17

Church of Rome at the Council of Trent. Do you see many federal visionists becoming either

01:29:24

Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox? And you can respond to that when we come back from our final break.

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01:34:02

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon eastern time for A Visit to the

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01:34:16

A Visit to the Pastor's Study, please tell the host, Bill Shishko, that you heard about his program from Chris Arnson and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and send my greetings to him.

01:34:25

He is a dear brother in Christ that I have known going all the way back to the 1980s when I was a brand new convert, when he came to visit

01:34:35

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01:35:11

We are now here again with our conversation with Dr.

01:35:16

Cornelis P. Venema on Children at the Lord's Table, Assessing the Case for Paedo -Communion, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:35:25

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and before the break, our questioner said, are you aware of many people who are federal visionists converting into the

01:35:37

Church of Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy? Of course, people from all backgrounds, even solid theological backgrounds like the

01:35:45

United Reformed Church of North America and Reformed Baptists, sometimes you hear about these stories of people converting to Rome, but do you see like any higher volume in your experience of people converting over from the federal visionists?

01:36:02

I hesitate to make that claim. I would observe that you mentioned earlier

01:36:08

Peter Lightheart. I don't know what his present ecclesiastical affiliation is, but he certainly would be an example of someone within the federal vision movement generally who has, because I think there's a denial of any distinction between the so -called visible and invisible or the visibility and invisibility of the

01:36:31

Church, anyone who is in the visible Church who has received the sacrament of baptism,

01:36:39

Lightheart and others within the federal vision movement will say are truly members of Christ and of his

01:36:44

Church. There are some features of the federal vision understanding that lend themselves, and there are some anecdotal accounts of people.

01:36:55

I think Lightheart would be an example who's been very emphatic that we ought not to speak of the

01:37:02

Roman Catholic Church as the false church, that we should regard the unity and catholicity of the

01:37:09

Church to virtually include almost all communions that profess to be Christian. That's as far as I will go, however,

01:37:17

I don't have a lot of evidence that this is a something that's happening with many federal visionists.

01:37:26

Yeah, that is a very frustrating aspect that you mentioned. I have friends in the federal vision,

01:37:32

I love them, but I am increasingly frustrated that they want to use terminology differently than has been used for quite a long time, centuries perhaps, but like for instance there are some that would say anyone who is baptized in the name of the

01:37:53

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a true Christian, that they are a Christian. Now I might say somebody is a

01:38:01

Christian by profession, I may say that they are a part of Christendom, but I would not call someone

01:38:09

I suspect is a nominal believer a false believer. I would not say that they are a true

01:38:15

Christian just because they've been baptized properly. I would agree with that, that would be my view as well.

01:38:23

I think they have some advocates of the federal vision embrace such a strong and robust,

01:38:33

I call it a doctrine of the sacraments on steroids. It's sort of a view of the sacrament that by virtue of its performance, what the sacrament aims to signify and seal to the one who participates is actually head for head the possession of all those.

01:38:58

For example, in the case of baptism, anyone baptized has Christ, has the fullness of Christ, is a member of the true

01:39:07

Church of Jesus Christ through baptism, is constituted a member of Christ by baptism. Well, that leads to these kinds of conclusions.

01:39:16

You have a very large and ecumenical view that virtually identifies the so -called visible

01:39:25

Church with the true Church, with those who are genuinely members of Christ. Well, you know, that leads me to something that I want to ask you to do because I'd like to have you back on the program, hopefully in the near future.

01:39:44

In fact, when we go off the air, I'd like you to hang on the line because I'd like to see if you could pick a date for another interview.

01:39:52

But if you could please explain for our audience your book that I want you to discuss the next time we're together,

01:39:59

The Lord's Supper and the Popish Mass. Yes, it's a little book that belongs to a series of such booklets published by Reformation Heritage Books, and it deals with one, as do the other books, one issue in the historic confessions of the

01:40:20

Reformed Churches. I'm dealing with question and answer 80 of the Heidelberg Catechism, which makes a sharp distinction between the sacrament of the

01:40:31

Lord's Supper and the idolatry of the

01:40:36

Popish Mass. So my title is a bit provocative, but it actually uses the language employed by the authors of that question and answer 80 in the

01:40:47

Heidelberg Catechism. It's a very controversial question and answer. It even was a question and answer added to the

01:40:54

Catechism after its first edition, shortly thereafter. So there's been a lot of discussion about it historically, and in this ecumenical age in which we find ourselves, to speak as strongly as it does in opposition to the

01:41:08

Roman Catholic Church's Mass is obviously fairly controversial.

01:41:14

But I'm not afraid of controversy if it's in the name and on behalf of what I believe to be true, and so I defend the answer given in question and answer 80.

01:41:27

Well, we definitely have to have you back on the program to address that. You make a special reference in your book on paedo -communion to 1

01:41:44

Corinthians. In fact, I have to enlarge this because I'm going blind.

01:41:52

I have to enlarge this on my screen. But 1

01:41:58

Corinthians, I believe it is chapter 1, 11 through 17.

01:42:07

Or is it, no, it's chapter, it's verse 17 through 34. Yes, that's a chapter 11.

01:42:15

Right, yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, there is actually a typo on the website. It is 1 Corinthians 111.

01:42:22

Ah, extra canonical. Yes, this is a key passage for you in your discussion, if you could discuss that a little bit.

01:42:36

I'm glad you asked that question, because at the end of the day, 1

01:42:42

Corinthians 11, 17 to 34, is the most extensive and important passage in all of Scripture, including the

01:42:52

New Testament, on how we should behave ourselves as believers, members of the church, when we come to the

01:43:01

Lord's table. And a big part of my argument is that in that chapter,

01:43:07

Paul calls to mind the words of institution that we have in the Gospels when our

01:43:12

Lord instituted the sacrament. And he stipulates how the sacrament is to be administered, for whom the sacrament is given, and how those who come to the table should receive the elements of the bread and the wine.

01:43:31

And if I may, the critical portion is at verse 25, where, quoting our

01:43:38

Lord, Paul says, Do this as often as you drink it in remembrance of me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the

01:43:47

Lord's death till he comes. Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the

01:43:56

Lord. Let a person examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

01:44:04

For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. My argument, and I have good company in making this argument, right across the board, whether we're

01:44:17

Reformed Baptists or just generic Reformed, the teaching of the

01:44:24

Apostle is that those who come must do so only upon having examined themselves, only upon having made a discerning judgment regarding the body of given for them.

01:44:37

They may come as those who come to proclaim, to remember, and to discern the body.

01:44:43

And that's what faith represents. Faith is such discernment, proclamation, remembrance.

01:44:52

There's no way on the basis of that text that it seems to me you can make a case for someone who has not professed that kind of faith that they should nonetheless be received and admitted to the table.

01:45:07

Yeah, you know, one of the things that immediately jumped into my mind here as you were reading and speaking, is that unlike baptism, and I'm not saying that our differences that you and I have,

01:45:24

I'm not saying that they are unimportant, I'm not saying that they are trivial, I believe that every

01:45:30

Presbyterian or Paedo -Baptist and Reformed Baptist worth his or her salt, as they say, should take that issue and that difference seriously.

01:45:42

Not to the point where we are barring one another from fellowship, or barring our pulpits from pulpit exchanges, or anything like that, but we should take the matter seriously.

01:45:54

But, however, it seems like there is a scarier consequence to handling the

01:46:03

Lord's Supper incorrectly, not only because of bringing condemnation upon yourself, but we read in the

01:46:10

Bible that people were getting sick and dying in the first century for mishandling the

01:46:15

Supper. You could comment on that. Well, that's certainly the case in terms of what the

01:46:21

Apostle goes on to say in this particular passage. It's a sobering passage, especially at the end.

01:46:30

If you eat and drink without discerning the body, you eat and drink judgment on yourself.

01:46:37

That's why he goes on, many of you are weak and ill and some have died. Now, I don't take that to be a judgment that's ultimate in the sense of no longer possibly saved, but I do believe it means the discipline and the displeasure of the

01:46:54

Lord was manifesting itself in terms of these consequences.

01:47:00

And so, the question of how the Lord's table is to be overseen and supervised in his name is an important question.

01:47:12

It has to be taken seriously, and admittedly, in the trivial age in which we now live, there are many, even in the

01:47:21

Church unhappily, who will not take that responsibility seriously. But certainly, the

01:47:27

Apostle Paul is instructing us in this passage that we must do so.

01:47:35

And let's see, we have, let's see here, we have

01:47:45

Christian in Suffolk County, New York, and Christian says, is paedo -communion permitted in any of the major Reform denominations, such as the

01:47:59

URCNA, the OPC, the PCA, and other very prominent

01:48:06

Reform denominations, or are they unilaterally opposed to it, officially?

01:48:15

The answer to that question is, so far as I know, none of the churches listed, identified in that question, and grant permission for their leadership to admit to the table all baptized members, whether they make profession of faith or not.

01:48:37

All of those churches, with the exception, I think, of the URC, I know the OPC and the PCA have had studies of the question, and they certainly have within their ranks some who might possibly advocate a change in practice.

01:48:51

Now, the language used by the questioner suggests that these are the principal or main bodies of Reform churches in the

01:49:03

North American context, but if you were to enlarge the circle and include CRC and RCA and PCUSA, more mainline churches, all of the latter, by way of distinction, do permit children to commune at the

01:49:24

Lord's Supper. Yeah, and some of those, sadly, and I don't want to broad -brush, but you'll have people who are known to be unrepentant homosexuals and all kinds of people who are demonstrating that they are not regenerate or apostate welcomed to the table, and even welcomed into the baptismal font.

01:49:53

I don't think that that would be true in the case of, I want to be careful here, in the case of the

01:50:00

CRC, might be possibly true in some cases in the RCA, certainly true in the

01:50:06

PCUSA. Right. Yeah, and I didn't mean to broad -brush, because I have friends who are actually very biblically orthodox in all of those denominations.

01:50:18

Even in the PCUSA, I have some friends who are holdouts, who are committed to the biblical summary provided in the

01:50:29

Westminster Confession and so on. And in fact, I have had on this program people who are members of those denominations, most recently somebody who is a member of the

01:50:42

RCA, who is a very biblically sound individual. But it's not surprising anymore to hear about a particular minister within any of those denominations to be endorsing same -sex marriage or something like that, even if they don't have a denominational approval for it.

01:51:03

That's correct. Well right now, before we run out of time, I want to make sure that you have five minutes of time, uninterrupted, where you can summarize the things that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, the things that you believe are most vital to this discussion, things that you may want to clarify, and you could begin that now.

01:51:26

Well, thank you very much. I've said most of what I would like to say. I was particularly pleased that I could give in a few comments on that very important passage, 1

01:51:37

Corinthians 11. I think what's at stake in the discussion, ultimately, is, in the first place, what do the

01:51:47

Scriptures teach on this question? And we must ultimately make judgments based upon the

01:51:54

Word of God in terms of the Church's faith and practice. As I indicated earlier, that's one of the reasons

01:52:00

I wrote the book. I was actually genuinely interested in the arguments that people were making, that children should be admitted to the

01:52:09

Lord's table, and that there was an inconsistency on the part of Reformed people not to admit them.

01:52:15

And so I undertook the study to address that question. I also think it's very important, and some of these more recent questions indicate that, underscore that, that how we understand membership in the

01:52:29

Church, who belongs and what are the privileges of belonging, what are the responsibilities of belonging, how that Church should be nurtured in the faith and its members instructed in the

01:52:41

Word of God and given the sacraments as a means of grace.

01:52:48

These are, perhaps to some who don't have a properly biblical understanding of the importance of the

01:52:55

Church, these are very important questions. And, you know, I'm a believer in our

01:53:03

Lord Jesus Christ, but I also believe with Christ you get His Church, not one without the other.

01:53:09

You ordinarily are not a member of Christ and nurtured in the faith without belonging to a local body of believers whose life and ministry is carried on in a biblical way.

01:53:25

And the preaching and teaching of the Word of God is the central thing to make Christ known and to call men and women to faith and repentance, but the sacraments are very close, associated with the

01:53:39

Word, means whereby we're also being instructed and the

01:53:44

Gospel is being communicated to us and we're being strengthened in our communion with Christ and with those who are

01:53:50

Christ. And so the issue of what about the children of believing parents, whether or not they should be admitted to the

01:53:59

Lord's Supper, is one of those questions, an important question. I even suggested along the way a couple of times that this issue, in my judgment, raises questions even about the way in which

01:54:15

Reformed churches, particularly Reformed churches that are baptizing the children of believing parents, how that community of faith is disciplined through the generations, from the present till the generation coming, is very much implicated by a practice like the one being suggested, the children at the

01:54:40

Lord's Table. I really believe that the concerns expressed regarding a halfway covenant or the loss of the ability of church officers to discipline members for failing to do what is required of them, conducting themselves in a way that is appropriate,

01:55:00

I really think that the long -term impact of the practice of patal communion, we haven't really any idea what that might be, but my perception of the matter is it won't be one that will fortify the church, that will really enhance the rigor with which the church exercises discipline.

01:55:23

In some of those respects, I imagine I'm expressing what sometimes worries pato -baptists about the practice in Reformed churches of baptizing children, so perhaps

01:55:37

I'm going to receive a sympathetic ear from them also in that respect. Well, let's see, we have time for a couple more questions.

01:55:49

Let's see here, we have Bob in New Rochelle, New York, and Bob says, in your opinion, should we ever join churches that practice patal communion if there are no churches near us that would disapprove of that practice?

01:56:15

I was about to answer that question by saying if there are no other churches that you could possibly join that you believe are true churches of Jesus Christ, then perhaps you might, in an irregular and not an altogether optimum way, decide, well, we should join that church.

01:56:37

But if there are other alternatives, more biblical, clearly

01:56:42

I would say you would not be, I would not encourage someone to join a church like that with that practice.

01:56:52

But these are hard questions, they're case studies, and so there are always all these variables, and so I'm a little reluctant to give a strong certainly yes or certainly no answer to that question.

01:57:10

Well, that actually leads me to another question of my own, and of course we can't broad brush or know what's going on in every church, but in your experience or to your knowledge, are those churches and congregations that are promoting and practicing patal communion, are they insisting or requiring that parents of infants and tiny children be given the

01:57:36

Lord's, that the parents give the children the Lord's Supper? Well, that's a question that I'm not sure

01:57:45

I can answer. I suspect that if they hold that view with any degree of consistency and integrity, they would certainly be instructing, teaching, encouraging parents to alter their practice if they don't bring their children to the table.

01:58:07

I do believe, however, that many of the churches that might hold broadly to a patal communion position will probably also have a view of the headship and oversight of the nurture of children by fathers, that they would leave that ultimately to the child's father and parents to decide.

01:58:29

They would not say to a parent, you must have your child receive communion.

01:58:38

Well, perhaps one day we can have a debate on Iron Trip and Zion Radio between the advocates of patal communion and the opponents.

01:58:48

We'll see what the Lord has in store for us. I want to thank you so much, Dr. Venema, for being our guest today.

01:58:54

I look forward to having you back, and if you could hold on the line when we go off the air, I'd like to try to schedule something with you on the other book on the

01:59:03

Lord's Supper that you wrote. I want to make sure our listeners have all the contact information they need. If you want to find out more about heritage books or Reformation heritage books, who published this book,

01:59:14

Children at the Lord's Table, you can go to heritagebooks .org, heritagebooks .org. And of course, the

01:59:22

Mid -America Reform Seminaries website is midamerica .edu, midamerica .edu.

01:59:28

And the website for Redeemer United Reformed Church in Dyer, Indiana is redeemerurc .com,

01:59:37

redeemerurc .com. And don't forget, you can usually get any book that you hear about on Iron Trip and Zion Radio from cvbbs .com,

01:59:44

cvbbs .com. Thank you so much, Dr. Venema. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

01:59:52

And I want you all to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.