Debate Report from London, Open Phones, Twitter Questions

Debate Report from London and the Setup for Open Phones

Greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. My name is James White coming to you once again live from downtown London, England. There's a fair amount of water on my window. We finally are getting some of those famous London showers.

I have been all over the place on my feet today. That's how you get most places here. I could have, I guess, used the tube to shorten things up, but why do that? It was pretty nice outside. I ran through Piccadilly and through Trafalgar Square, all over the place, visiting various shops that I needed to get to.

The wife let me know that it wouldn't hurt if I brought something home for her. Unfortunately, she left that up to me, which is, I would rather debate in a room full of Muslims than try to figure out what my wife's actually like, especially when it comes to, she's not watching right now, so I'm safe.

So I did find something that I'm hoping, after 37 years, that she'll like what I got. But if I find Clementine wearing what I got her in six months, I'll know that I really didn't do a very good job. Anyway, and I went and visited Tortilla again, the little Mexican restaurant that I like there.

At least I'm still getting some of my Mexican food and chips and salsa and stuff like that, even while in London. And I'll get done with this quickly. I popped into, there's all over London, you have these places where you can buy London shirts and hats and refrigerator magnets and all the touristy stuff.

And I found a really nice, what I wanted was a light, long-sleeved shirt, but no one seems to have those. But I found a really nice, mind-the-gap, embroidered zipper, I think it was a hoodie. It may or may not have been.

Since I've already gotten a hoodie on this trip, I was like, ah. But what was really cool about it is the liner was the tube map. And anybody who's got the tube thing, the tube app on their phone, or ever rides the tube, knows what I'm talking about.

And man, I was close. And now I'm not sure where it was. So I'm gonna try to find it again tomorrow. It's one of those situations where you walk a mile farther and then go, ah, I should have done that.

Where was it? I don't know. So anyways, we'll try to figure that out maybe tomorrow. I have a little thing tomorrow morning. We're gonna have a little breakfast thing with some, not just one church, but a few churches here.

And then I'm speaking tomorrow evening as well on a touchy, tough subject. I'm getting asked to address, I'll just be straight up. I detest talking about the social justice stuff. You go, well, couldn't tell from the last dividing line.

Hey, I'm not saying I'm not gonna do it because it needs to be addressed. When it starts creating a necessary and theologically dangerous division in the church, it's the only reason I've ever addressed it.

I have zero desire to pursue all of that stuff. It is, in my opinion, 100 drain, no positive. There's just no positive. We had the debate last night. I was dealing with Islam and I was providing answers to those types of things.

And yeah, that's a lot of energy to put out, but there's just such a wonderfully positive backside to it that you're getting to proclaim truth and you're getting to present the gospel to people. And I've met with former Muslims here in London and they're former Muslims because of the fact that once the spirit begins to work with someone, who are they gonna turn to?

I thought about this after the Aser Qadhi affair. Muslims in Memphis, Tennessee, if the spirit of God begins to work, and if you believe that salvation is the work of the spirit of God, the time comes in life of one of God's elect where conviction of sin is brought and that supernatural process begins, where's someone gonna turn?

They're not gonna go to the Christians in Memphis who are constantly expressing fear and hatred, dread, misrepresentation. You stay over there, we don't want you here, blah, blah, blah, blah. And here's the other part, they're not gonna go to the liberals because the Muslims know who the real believers are.

And they know when they see liberals who don't really believe Jesus rose from the dead and don't really believe that the word of God has continuing validity today, they're not gonna go to those folks.

They don't have answers. Who are they gonna go to? Well, at least in Memphis, they know that there are Christians there who a little over a year ago reached out to them in, or was that two years ago? Whatever, I think it was a little over a year ago, reached out to them and showed true Christian concern and care for them.

Same thing here in London. One thing that we have now done over the course of, what's the first one in 2007 or 2008? I think it may have been 2008. Anyway, it's been over a decade. We have been establishing the reality in this place and in this country, especially in London, but I've been up to Birmingham as well, that there are Christians who will not compromise, who firmly believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God, died upon Calvary's cross, was buried, rose again the third day, King of kings, Lord of lords, don't compromise on any of it.

And still insist upon accurately representing the Muslim people, showing respect for them, caring for them, loving them. And that's a combination that is vitally needed anywhere, wherever you live, but here as well.

So anyway, that's a really important thing. And that's really what the background of last night's debate was all about too. Let me first of all, thank the folks at Selhurst Evangelical Church. And these poor guys, they're going to a conference.

I think it's more than one church, but it's a good distance from here. And they pretty much all left today. So the timing of this whole trip couldn't have been worse. Along those lines. And what happened was the initial Muslim individual with whom I was going to have dialogue and debate, something came up and he wasn't able to do it.

And Adnan Rashid, I contacted him and said, hey, would you happen to be in London right now? Cause he does a lot of traveling. And he said, yeah. And so I told him what was going on. And he stepped up with, I think barely a week.

Let's see, we did that on, that was Tuesday. I found out about it. So nine days. And so I'm very thankful that Adnan was willing to do this. He's very busy. But then the problem was the fairly small venue that we had wouldn't allow advertisements, at least from his side on social media.

I don't know why. And so we were going to, for a few days, it looked like we were just going to be meeting in a small room and videotaping this with about 10 people from each side sitting in the background.

But then Selhurst came through and especially the fellow at Selhurst, Ashley, who even though he was traveling and the timing for him was all wrong, he's the one that has arranged everything else pretty much that I've done.

He's the one that got me into Grace Life to preach on Easter Sunday morning, which is pretty amazing. And the things we're doing tomorrow and the next day and then this debate all got worked out. And so very much appreciate Ashley's doing all of that and buying me a Five Guys burger for dinner last night.

And basically, it's the Grubhub, whatever type delivery food thing is what we did once I got out to Selhurst on the train. And the food arrives buried in French fries. It's just a bag, literally, an oily bag because the French fries are seeping out and the cheeseburgers buried in this massive pile of fries.

It was funny. It was good. It was a very good burger. Anyway, so I appreciated that and meeting Ashley's three cats. He was really worried when I first met him. You're not allergic to cats. Kitties, you have kitties?

I'm missing my kitties. And it's like, chase the kitties around there. I'm like, who is this guy? So anyway, but I appreciated all the extra work that went into that. And it couldn't have been easy for the folks at Selhurst, but here they are showing up and they're bringing stuff to eat and stuff like that for people.

And so, and then Adnan was, we didn't get started until seven. We had initially announced six because of traffic jams because they're up in the Northwest part of the city and Selhurst is in South London, far South London.

And so, but that's the way it is. The traffic in London is traffic in London. That's just how it is. There's almost always roadwork going on someplace. So Adnan got there and his guys set up a couple of cameras and we got to it and the subject was different.

The subject that he had suggested was who resembles Jesus, Christians or Muslims? I pretty much knew where that was going to go. I knew pretty much that was going to open a lot of doors and it was gonna be a fairly short debate.

We were planning on going from six to nine. We went from seven to nine, but we still got everything we intended to do in. So that was good. And we didn't take any breaks on that. It wasn't long enough to bother to take any breaks.

And we had room because obviously, one guy had complained this should have been advertised months ago. I was like, well, we couldn't put it together months ago. There's nothing that would have been impossible.

So we did what we could. And because of the location, there weren't as many Muslims there as we would have liked, but it's possible. I don't have the feed up to where I would see it actually, but it's possible even while we're doing the program that the video might get posted.

Earlier, I saw a comment from Adnan saying the video would be up tonight, which would be great because I felt that it was a really excellent encounter, excellent in the sense of the range of subjects that were addressed and the spirit of the engagement.

There was sharp disagreement and I want to continue to ask my fellow believers to pray for Adnan Rashid. There were a couple of times during the debate where it was, I just felt like saying, Adnan, are you listening to me?

Not hearing what I'm saying. But I continue to, I have to wait upon the Lord for that and that is our confidence and our strength. But Doug McMasters and his boys made the trip out. Doug was used to pastor here in London.

Now he's at New Hyde Park Baptist Church on Long Island. But he happens to be here in London. And so Doug and I used to bum around London frequently when I was out here. If you've seen any of the debates at Trinity Road in Wandsworth, like with Sami Zatari, Bassam Zawadi, those debates were there and that's when Doug was pastoring at that particular church.

And so, oh, I'm sorry, let me see here. I'm in channel here and there we go. Okay, I had to kick an anti-cat person out of the channel because that was just inappropriate. Anyway, so I don't do that, that's not nice.

Anyways, so we had a group from Grace Life London that came out. I just hope the believers were edified and that Muslims heard the other side that they don't regularly hear and in a way that was clear for them and in a way that clearly is coming from an individual who cares deeply for them.

And I think that's the best way to do that. That was debate number 166. And the way things are coming together this year, we're gonna blow by the 170 mark real fast because we're putting together a number of, let's see, minimally, one, two, three.

Yeah, there's minimally four more before the end of it. Minimally four, possibly as many as six before the end of the year. And so we could be in the 170s. That's just, yeah, this year is gonna, anyway, it's gonna go by very, very quickly.

So let's do this. We're gonna try something on the program today even though I'm remote since I am traveling so much this year. Oh, and by the way, before I, I don't wanna forget this. Adnan was very kind.

See, when I left home, I didn't know Adnan and I were gonna be debating or I would have done something and the fallout that I was gonna debate and I really haven't done the gift exchange thing. So I was left at a bit of a disadvantage.

But Adnan did get me something. And this is a very early coin from the Islamic empire. And I'm gonna try to hold it up here so you can see it that he gave to me. And I know there's some discussion of these types of coins and dating and relationship to the Quran and stuff like that.

Having that chance to really look at it, I mean, I would have to, I can just barely see it here, but I can read it. And so I very much appreciate that very kind gift from him and sorry, I didn't have anything, but it does give me an idea of what to do next time.

But like I said, this debate was just, oh, hey, let's try this in less than a week or a little over a week and we pulled it off. So that's very useful. Now, what we're gonna try to do is we're gonna try to open up the phones because as I'm gonna be doing a lot of traveling, we may need to be doing this type of dividing line a little bit more often in the future.

And so 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number that I have memorized, but I still keep it posted in the dividing line studio. And I typed it on the screen over here, 877 -753 -3341, you'd think that it would be memorized by now.

But also I have Twitter up. And so if I am logged in, in my Dr. Oakley 1689 account, unlike the actor Woods, who has been banned from Twitter, and the ongoing banning of people from social media that will eventually take us all out as the totalitarians are totalitarians.

And that's how they function. And we'll continue to function. If you wanna try to put a question or comment in Twitter, go ahead and we'll see if we can respond to some of that. For example, right now in Twitter, someone made a comment about the fact that Jeffrey at Post Tenebrous Lux Bible Rebinding posted the pictures of my newest PTL work.

And that is, I sent Jeffrey my 1977 NASB giant print it's a really, it's not a big Bible. It's fairly thick, but it's just always been super readable. It fits in your hand real nicely. And, but you know, it's the 77, not the 95.

And I pulled it off a shelf recently. And I thought to myself, you know, this would be really nice to use again. And it'd be really great if I could get it done by Jeffrey. So the pictures are on his Facebook feed and maybe on this website too.

And it is a gorgeous, has a beautiful high row with the Alpha Omega on it on the front. Some of you know what, that's particularly special to me. And it's the same artwork that was used for that other thing.

And so it's really neat to have that. And the, you know, it just looks like it's gonna be a beautiful, beautiful, it looks like a little bit more of a blue turquoise than my Nestle All-in 28, which I spoke from last night during the debate.

I hope Jeffrey will see that the only Bible I had during the debate last night was the Nestle All-in 28. Because I sort of finished, Adnan called it preaching. He said, he's a very good preacher. But I closed out my comments on the subject of Jesus's own words.

If anyone would follow after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, follow me. And from my perspective, that was really the thesis of the debate. I mean, who resembles Jesus? Well, someone who would follow him, who's gonna be his disciple.

How do you be his disciple? Take up the cross, follow me. Take up the cross. Islam denies the cross took place. Isn't that the end of the debate? I thought it was. And I don't think a response to that is really forthcoming.

But I'll let you judge that from the video when it comes out, hopefully sometime today. For those of you back in the US, as soon as I find out about it, of course I will post it. But anyway, it looks like the one that hopefully will be waiting for me when I get home will be a little bit more blue than that one, even though my Nassau 28 sort of changes color.

It's sort of interesting how that worked. So anyways, with that, I don't see anything in Twitter right now, but I think we do have a call. So hopefully I'll be able to hear, be able to interact. We'll find, this is, if we have problems, folks, please forgive us.

We haven't done it this way before. We've gotta practice, gotta experiment, gotta find out how it's gonna work. So we have one phone call right now at 877 -753 -3341. And if you want to get online, you can do so.

I realize this is an unusual time of day for us, but 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. And our first caller, our first experimental caller is Michael in Colorado, wanting to know how best to find a church.

So Michael, are you with us? Yes, sir. Wow, sounds like you're in the room next door. That's cool, man, right on. Isn't that amazing? I'm sitting here staring at a computer and it sounds like you're in the room with me.

That's, and I'm in London, that's pretty weird. That's fantastic. Yes, sir, what can I do for you?

Yes, sir. So all county, by the way, it's what they call a dark sky county, which means that it's one of the best for viewing the sky. So I know you're a big stargazer. Anytime you're in Colorado.

Well, Colorado is pretty good, even though I was really surprised when I was in Evergreen to look at the light pollution map that you can put into Google Earth. And it was really bad. The light from Denver even goes up into the mountains.

So yeah, there would be darker places, definitely. Yeah, yes, sir.

I think like three or 4 ,000 people total in the county, but yes, I think you're talking more Northern Colorado. North is a little bit of a rivalry. I was curious, availability is various. A lot of, you know, you're sort of cookie cutter, Armenian sort of thing, or, you know, a Baptist church that seems quite only one elder and several deacons.

I'm curious, what am I looking for when I'm trying to find a church home? What are the minimum go or no go qualifications?

How to Find a Church Home

Yeah, a lot of people find themselves in that situation. And generally what you end up with is, obviously you have to sort of put together a list of what you'd like to have down to what's absolutely minimal.

And what's absolutely minimal is going to be a church that attempts to practice solo scriptura that's obviously Orthodox in its doctrine of God and in having the Lord's Supper and baptism, things like that.

But that may not be what you want, soteriologically speaking, or ecclesiastically speaking, as far as the issue of plurality of elders, things like that. And so I wanna find a Reformed Baptist style church.

Then I wanna find, if that's not available, I want to find someone, a church that's going to still have an emphasis upon the sovereignty of God and the preaching and the teaching of the church. At some point, you have to make the decision.

It depends on, again, availability. There's a tipping point where, for someone like myself, and I'm assuming, I'm not sure, you didn't say, but if you are a Credo Baptist and not a Pedo Baptist.

I was baptized as an infant. I think I was like four days old. So, you know, in a Presbyterian church in Virginia, but doctrinally, I'm Credo.

Well, once Presbyterian, always Presbyterian, as they say. So, but at some point, there's, for example, there's someone in our chat channel right now who shall remain nameless, though he would get along here where I am fairly well.

So he couldn't find his way around anywhere. He'd get lost in London, but he'd get lost in the block of where I am. But anyways, he is a Baptist, but he is in a Presbyterian church right now. Because as far as the availability in his area, there comes a point where that becomes an option, where if the Presbyterians will have you, and they're not going to be chasing you around with a squirt gun, that you will be getting enough enough of, you know, getting solid reformed teaching, rather than being in a situation where there is actually enmity toward reformed theology or something like that.

And so that becomes an option as well. But sometimes not even that's available, or the Presbyterian church in the area is extremely liberal. Eventually it gets down to, well, does this church still believe the Bible's the word of God?

And there's a lot of things you can try to put up with, because it's important for us to be at a fellowship and to be seeking to minister and to be involved in ministry. But some people find themselves in a situation, quite honestly, where there's just, there is not a church that is visitable for them.

And I've known people who've had to move. So quite simply because they were put in a position where there just simply wasn't anything available. And it's going to be up to each individual as to where you're going to end up drawing that line.

Some are more comfortable with more things. Some need to have a higher level. It really depends.

I feel like this heavy stuff that's happening and is big on God's sovereignty in all things, including suffering and medical stuff, maximum important for me. So, well, thank you, Dr. White.

Okay, hey, thanks for your phone call today, Michael. I appreciate it. Yes, sir. God bless. All right, God bless. All right, so I've got Twitter questions and we've got three callers. That's good. This is working well.

Evangelism, Theonomy, and the Quran

Real quick before I go back to the calls, any advice, resources, et cetera, for someone wanting to get into evangelism, the practical side of the task? Well, the guys at a million tracks would be one to talk to.

I'm not sure what you mean by evangelism. Are you talking street evangelism, personal evangelism in your... I'm not exactly sure what that is. Practical side of the task, having good tracks, do you mean, or training like you get from Living Waters or something like that, or watching Emilio Ramos talking with people or people doing stuff like that.

There's lots of stuff available today along those lines. J. Roberts, theonomist, Rashiduni, and the kinest, can you discuss? Not really. Because theonomy is a very wide topic. It simply means God's law.

There'd be a lot of people. Well, modern evangelicals in the United States is so antinomian that they would identify almost any of the reformers as theonomists because of their emphasis upon the continuing validity of God's law.

A lot of people who listened to my 35 message series on the Holiness Code would have to go, well, that's almost theonomic. And that's why I go, well, what do you mean by that? Do you mean, do I think God's law continues to be valid today?

Yes, I do. Every generation has to struggle with what that means, penology, all the rest of that stuff. And unfortunately, the term theonomist has just become a term you just throw out for someone who has a higher view of the Mosaic Law than you do, which obviously makes it a worthless term.

So I'm not sure what you mean by theonomists. I know there's some discussion of rush duty and kinism. I don't know anything about it. I haven't read enough for rush duty to know anything about any of that stuff.

So no, I couldn't discuss. Just got your book, 50 Things About the Quran. I think what you mean is what every Christian needs to know about the Quran. Where did you or how did you study for publishing that book?

Well, that's awfully long story. Basically, look at all the debates I did up until the point of writing it and you'll get a pretty good idea. And you can sort of, if you go back to the dividing lines, which is still available in the Sermon Audio archives, back around, well, up through 2010, probably, you'll see that I did more programs back then.

I should probably get back to doing some, but I did more programs back then on Islam. We did, for example, an entire dividing line just on, we looked at every single reference to Isa bin Maryam in the Quran to Jesus.

We did entire programs like that. And that'll give you a good idea of some of the sources that we were looking at and other debates that the people that we were playing and responding to and doing stuff like that.

Let's see. I know you've covered the troubles for Catholic apologists by Francis several times, but any thoughts on the recent call from within Roman Catholicism to announce Francis as a heretic? Yeah, there was a, a letter that was published.

It does not represent a large number of people, but it represents at least one person who's had, has a fairly strong standing within the Roman Catholic Church. And so a little bit higher up, but I looked at it.

I looked at it and I, I didn't really jump on it simply due to the fact that it was primarily focused upon a fairly narrow spectrum of things in regards to a particular apostolic letter that Francis put out on the issue of marriage and the church and stuff like that.

So if someone would come along and be bold enough to say, dude, you're a universalist. We're not. When the Pope says, who am I to judge about homosexuality? You're, you're being heretical. That would be different.

But a lot of the stuff that's being focused upon is sort of minutiae within Roman Catholicism and isn't quite as important to those of us, those of us outside. Let's see. Last one before we go back to calls.

What is the response to the objection to presuppositionalism, which is basically the laws of logic are just descriptions, not just actual things themselves? Well, the point is that the mechanism by which we have been designed to think is a consistent mechanism that requires explanation.

It's not something that can just be descriptive. It's true that logic doesn't exist as an entity. It is a created element of the creation, but that doesn't mean, given its universality and its necessity for human life, that doesn't change the reality that its origin must be accounted for.

So that's how I would respond to that. So in response to a previous one, this is my previous response. Just saw a footnote in Joe Carter's article and he lumped all theonomists in with kinists. That's where it came from.

Well, that wouldn't surprise me all that much. As I said in the last dividing line, I think there's a lot problematic in Joe Carter's article on that and many other things as well. Okay, with that, I think I'm caught up on the Twitter questions.

So let's go in order, as I see it on the screen here anyways, let's go to Brett in Florida. Hi, Brett. How you doing, James? Pretty good here coming up on almost eight o 'clock at night in London.

Nice. Well, it's like one o 'clock here in Florida, something like that. It's nice here. I actually just got back from Tennessee. Nice trip. My first vacation with my wife. Really good. But I'm calling in reference to repentance.

I guess it's a lot less doctrinal than it is more applicable as in my own life. And I got born again out of heavy, heavy drug addiction. I was falling heavily into drug addiction before I even really was in high school.

I'm now 14 years old already, fully, fully in it. And I got born again in a halfway house out here. And I mean, I walked into that room, I gave Jesus my life and I came out totally different. My whole life changed, completely born again.

But I'm four years now, and I have a real desire to live wholly before God. I have a desire to be fully cleansed. And I'm not, I'm really struggling in my own heart with sins that I'm not feeling like I'm fully cleansed from.

And I guess my question I have is more of a younger brother to an older brother about have you ever dealt with in your life where you don't feel like your heart is where it's supposed to be as a child, knowing that you're a child and the inability really feel like I really am seeking God, but I don't feel like I'm obtaining.

And just two book references that I had that really helped for me. So you can see where I'm coming from. There's a book named from John Owen called Indwelling Sin and Believers. And then another one, The Doctrine of Repentance by Thomas Watson, like both Puritan writers back 1600.

And they both blessed me, but I'm really struggling in my walk as a younger brother. So I'll take it off on the other end, more of just seeing if you have any advice or any thoughts on that, so. All right.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you. Yeah, obviously a topic that there are numerous studies on and excellent sermons available from a number of people today I've heard many of them, but it does point to the constant struggle that does exist in regards to the two sides, libertinism and legalism.

So on the one side, there are many people that don't even understand what the caller is talking about, because there are those who would say that there is no need for us to be considering these issues.

You're simply accepted in Christ. You don't have to worry about these things. You don't have to test yourself. You don't have to be examining yourself. And then on the other side, you can always get those.

And there is a certain kind of person I have found over the years that experiences this. There is a certain kind of person who struggles in finding the balance that is inherently necessary in the Christian life between recognizing one's acceptedness, one's righteousness in Christ, what union with Christ means, resting in Him, and the necessary self-examination, avoidance of presumption, embracing of an attitude of deadness spiritually, embracing that apathy that can be so dangerous to anyone.

There are people who tend to be very self-focused. And if we examine ourselves, well, you're gonna have to focus upon yourself, but we cannot remain in that state constantly because we will always find in this life blemish.

We will find reason to see that we continue to love ourselves more than we love Christ. Every act of sin is a demonstration that we love ourselves more than we love Christ when you think about it. And there is a balance that has to be maintained between the abject hatred of sin that should be ours and the recognition of the fact that in this life we will continue to experience the presence of that sin.

A life of repentance is one that grabs hold of promise of scripture, and it's interesting. Just this morning, I was gonna mention on Facebook, I never did, but I had the debate last night. And so this morning I did a 7K run along the Thames and I took the time before I left to load onto my phone all of the integrity musics, this is back in the 80s and 90s, scripture memorization albums that I had purchased from Amazon before.

I'd never downloaded them onto my phone. And it really ministered to me. I needed to be listening to that music while I was running this morning because a debate takes spiritual energy, it takes work.

And I needed to be built up in that way. And one of the songs, I remember where I was, it was just past the eye. If you know the eye in London, the Ferris wheel there, on the one side of the Thames, I just passed the eye on the outward leg when one of the songs was specifically talking about the biblical phrase, the biblical text.

Sin shall not reign over you. We want to be able to break, and we need to recognize that in Christ, the power of sin has been broken, but not the presence of sin. That's why repentance is a constant experience in the life of the believer.

If sin could reign as in have kingship, then there wouldn't be a reason to repent because there wouldn't be any ultimate victory over it. But sin shall not reign over you. That gives the lie to Jesse Morrell and the perfectionists like him, because it's obviously meant in the context that we still experience sin, but we are not in a situation where it will reign over us as king.

And so that life of repentance is perfectly in line with a life of joy, focused upon grace, everything else. The two have to go together, and finding that balance is very important in our day. The balance has often gone the wrong direction toward a libertinism that keeps us from examining ourselves.

But for the person who ends up stuck on the other side, constant self-examination and no victory, my pastoral advice has always been to look to Christ and to consider his power and his saviorhood as being able to overcome even the worst of our sins.

So there's a lot of good stuff there. Okay, before, well, let's go to, because I do see one here. Let's go to Caleb in Hawaii. Hi, Caleb. Hey there, Dr. White.

Question, I kind of have to tell the story with it because I'm with YWAM in Honolulu, and Steve Greig was here yesterday for this QA, so I asked him this question too, because it's really touching to me.

I know you guys have had a debate, and I've been watching that the past few days. Really entertaining.

Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, you're actually so loud that it's cutting in and out. Who are you talking about?

Sorry, I was talking about how this question kind of involves a situation I'm in right now, and Steve Greig yesterday.

Oh, Steve Greig, okay, all right.

Okay. And it's funny, because I've watched you guys, you had like five different little debates over the radio, and I liked it a lot. And I asked Steve Greig this, because I have a friend here who's one of the people who works with YWAM, and they're not sure if Jesus was deity or if he's just like a created being, kind of like how Jehovah witnesses.

And so I've been talking to this person, and I've been trying to show them in the Bible all of these verses, not only showing that Christ is God, but also showing that we have to believe that Christ is God in order for him to save, and that is the 80s super important.

And all the warnings about different gospels and different Christs. And so I asked Steve Greig last night if, first of all, what are the arguments that Jehovah witnesses would bring up, and also how important is it to get the deity of Christ right?

And the answer I got was, first of all, he affirmed the deity of Christ, but then also continued on to say that it's not necessarily important to believe in the deity of Christ to be saved, and that somebody can be calling Jesus and looking at him as their master, just not get his deity right, and it's not for him to say if they're saved or not.

And so I guess the question for me is, how important is it to know that Christ really is who he says he was, that he's God? How important is that to be able to be saved?

Okay, that's a good question. And I didn't hear what Steve Greig's response was personally so I'm not gonna really interpret that, but I've addressed it a number of times before, and this is a good example of where to draw the dividing line.