October 11, 2023 Show with Jerry Johnson on “Celebrating the 19th Anniversary of ‘Amazing Grace: The History & Theology of Calvinism'”

from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 11th day of October 2023, and obviously

I am once again urging our listeners to pray for the people of Israel no matter what your eschatology is and no matter how you view the nation of Israel in light of biblical prophecy.

Obviously many Reformed Christians, my fellow Reformed brethren, many of them if not most do not believe the nation of Israel that we have today in the

Middle East is an answer or fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

But nonetheless, this nation is our closest ally in the Middle East and the citizens of Israel are being subject to brutally satanic attacks, terrorist attacks by the

Palestinians, and so I ask of you obviously as brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for this to come to an end quickly and for the safety and well -being of those citizens in the nation of Israel and that the

Lord would use this tragedy in some way to bring about the salvation of many on both sides of this conflict.

But today we have on the program a returning guest, one of my favorite returning guests on the program, my old friend

Jerry Johnson who is a Reformed Christian apologist and documentarian, and today we are going to be celebrating the 19th anniversary of the documentary

Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trumpets Iron Radio, Jerry Johnson.

Thank you Chris, it's good to be here brother. It's great to have you on the program. So tell us about how this documentary which was launched 19 years ago, how this even became a thought in your head to do this,

I mean it's not rocket science to figure out that somebody who is a lover of Calvinism or also nicknamed

Reformed theology, the doctrines of grace, the doctrines of sovereign grace, why you would want to create a documentary, but what did you see as being lacking in the resources that Reformed Christians already had that made you think this documentary was necessary?

All right, well let me start out by saying this, I had many

Arminians after the documentary was produced ask me why

I didn't have any Arminians on the documentary, and this really goes to the issue of what you just asked.

The reason I didn't was if I would have put them on, my only reason to put them on would have been to tear them down, and I wasn't gonna lie to them and tell them you know yeah we're gonna make it uh you know present both sides, and I was talking with Robert Raymond, Dr.

Robert Raymond, and he said you know Arminianism has so many, so many advocates, so much material out there, there's not much for Calvinist.

Around 1997 is when I got the idea to do it. Now I had two friends that were involved in video production.

One was a guy, and he wasn't really well known, he was good, his name was

Brian Barkley at New Liberty Video, and the other was Eric Holmberg, and Eric and I had really kind of been closer, so I went to him first with the idea of doing the video, and he said yeah

I'm not kidding, he said to me nobody would ever watch that, and I said okay nobody would ever watch it.

I still have this urge to make it, and it took him about five years before he said okay let's do it, and so what

I wanted to do, because I was a senior writer, now to let you know I write more like a technical journal.

Eric is the more artsy one, and I wrote the script, and Eric kind of polished it up and put it in words at that point that you know made sense that a lot of people could understand, so I really think we work good together, and I kind of took them through my journey when

I was a Arminian with a brain full of mush. I when

I started studying these issues out, and I'll tell you about that real quick, my dogs just came into the room.

Yeah your dogs are obviously Arminian because they're trying to disrupt the interview here. Shutting the door, they keep nudging it open, so a

UPS truck came by and they started barking, so I think the UPS truck has left now, but anyway

I wanted to take people through my journey. I'll tell you how my journey started.

There was a guy that wrote a book, and I believe his name was Ralph Self, and I was a

Southern Baptist at the time, and I repented of that. All right my dogs, all right thank you

Annie, I love you too, now get down, get down, all right.

Anyway there was a guy that wrote a book called Southern Baptist and the Doctrine of Election, I believe his name was

Ralph Self, and my pastor, my senior pastor at the time, a guy named

Larry Marlin, great guy, he was one that if you're confronted, he was confronted with the scriptures, he would change his viewpoint immediately, and we went out to lunch, and I can remember

I was sitting there and I said to him, hey Larry what do you know about total depravity, and he goes oh that's that Calvinist stuff, you don't want anything to do with that, and he painted the typical caricature of Calvinism, you know that there are some that want to be saved,

God will have nothing to do with it, and there are other people that don't want to be saved, but God drags them kicking his screening into the kingdom, and Larry and I had lunch, and he said this, and we both agreed we didn't want to be

Calvinist, well we got back to the church, and got back to his office, and there were two copies for some reason, three copies of that book sitting on Larry's desk, and I thought it was funny, we had just talked about it, and I asked

Larry, I said do you mind if I take one, and he goes no go ahead, so I took it home, and it was probably about nine o 'clock in the evening,

Larry called me up, and he said have you read any of that book, and I said yeah,

I'm about two -thirds of the way through it, and he goes well I'm about halfway through it, what's your opinion?

You're talking about Southern Baptist and the Doctrine of Election, you mean? Yeah. By the way, that was written by Bob Self, Robert Self.

Yeah, Robert, all right. I actually know him personally, and he was an interim pastor for the church where I was formerly a member,

Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, temporarily.

Wait, Larry and I had read that book, I'm asking him, what do you think he's asking me, what do

I think, neither of us wants to say anything, and finally I blurted out to him,

Larry, I think I'm a Calvinist, and he goes yeah, me too, so that that started me on my journey.

Now let me tell you about this, Robert Self called up Nicene Council, the apologetics group at one point, and he wanted to order a copy of The Mason Grace, and when he said his name,

I said you're not the same guy that wrote Southern Baptist and the Doctrine of Election, and he said well,

I'm guilty, and I told him that whole story, and he goes wow, that is unbelievable.

That is how we got started in it, and then of course I read a whole bunch of stuff, and then

I read numerous systematic theologies by Charles Hodge, by A.

A. Hodge, by Lewis Burkoff, by Robert Raymond. In fact, his book, by the way, at least

I found it to be one of the best, his book, A New Systematic Theology of the

Christian Faith. If your readers or your listeners have a chance, get that book and read it.

That was a great book. By the way, I want to let our listeners know some of the very prestigious names who contributed to this documentary.

The late Dr. R. C. Sproul, the late Dr. D. James Kennedy, Dr. George Grant, who just recently told me he wants to return to the program for another interview.

I'm looking forward to that. My friend Dr. Tom Askell, my friend Dr. Tom Nettles, Dr.

Roger Schultz, a former pastor of the church where I am a member right now,

Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Walt Chantry, the late Walt Chantry, who was the pastor of my church for 40 years.

That was before I arrived in Pennsylvania, not long before my joining that church.

My very dear friend, who may have been interviewed, it's kind of a neck -and -neck situation between him and Phil Johnson of Grace to You Ministries, but Dr.

Joe Moorcraft has been interviewed on this program, I think, just as many times as the man who formerly held the position as the most interviewed guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Phil Johnson.

And by the way, Joe Moorcraft is returning to my program a week from this

Friday, and I don't know the topic yet, but we will announce that. Dr.

Ken Talbot, I should say the late Dr. Ken Talbot, and Pastor Walter Bowie and others.

So that's a very impressive lineup, and how did you come to select these specific people to be a part of this documentary?

You know, I don't know if I really can answer that. I wanted to get

R .C. Seville, that was the top one, and I wanted to get

Dr. G. James Kennedy, but let me say this, I didn't think the Kennedy interview would be all that good, because I had seen his radio program or his television program.

I kind of felt he was a milk -toasty guy. Really? Really. We went down there to interview him, myself, and a guy named

James Gillette, because we wrote him, and he wrote us back, and bless his heart, the guy didn't use a computer.

So everything was a letter. And neither does John MacArthur, and neither did

R .C. Sproul. Really? Yeah. No, R .C. Sproul didn't either. And what happened was, we flew down to, what is it,

Fort Lauderdale to interview Dr. Kennedy? Yes. And I thought the guy might give us 20 minutes, and we started, we sat down to do the interview, and I didn't ask him question one.

I thought I'd ask him questions about evangelism, since he wrote Evangelism Explosion, but I had given him all of the questions.

He goes, wait a minute, what happened to question number one? So I was like, alright.

An hour and a half later, the guy answered everything. And let me tell you, he, that guy was such a professional.

I would ask him a question, and he would start answering it, and then he would go down to a rabbit trail, and he goes, no, don't use that.

Let me go back and do it. He would start all over, say everything right up to the point where he went down the rabbit trail, and then keep going.

I was thoroughly impressed. Yeah, I always loved Dr. Kennedy. Yeah, let me also tell your listeners this.

I would quote a Bible verse to him. He would say it back to me in Greek.

And I was, I was sitting there, I bet my mouth was open half the time. But if you, if you watch the video, and by the way, it's free on YouTube.

You could just type in Amazing Grace, the history of theology of Calvinism, and it'll come up.

But if you, if you notice the point where Kennedy is talking about the word all, all doesn't always mean all.

Yes, that was a classic excerpt from that documentary, because it was kind of humorous as well.

Well, it was. And I was, you couldn't see me on camera. I had asked the question, and he started answering.

And if you see him smile at one point, it was all because I was sitting there laughing. I couldn't believe it.

So I did do all the interviews except for the ones with Dr. Grant.

And the ones with Steve, I don't even remember his last name. Mansfield.

Yeah, Steve Mansfield. I'm sorry. That was one at the time he was

Eric's pastor. And Eric wanted to have him on there. So that's how he got on there.

Yeah, well, you know, we already have a question that has come in from an anonymous listener. We might as well tackle this before we go any further.

The anonymous listener says, your guest mentioned Eric Holmberg as being a part of this documentary.

Do you not know that he has become a full blown Roman Catholic? Well, he actually has not become a full blown

Roman Catholic. He has become an apostate, but he has entered into the

Eastern Orthodox Church. And that was very recently, years after, nearly 19 years after the creation of this documentary.

Now, do you have any words that you want to offer not only to this listener, but those that already have known this about Eric, or may be discovering it right now, when they are now perhaps reconsidering making use of this phenomenal documentary that has been used by God to draw many people into embracing the doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

And I actually believe it is the finest defense of the doctrines of Sovereign Grace that I've ever seen or heard.

But there are some that might say, well, since Eric is the narrator, and he has become an apostate, we shouldn't even make use of this.

How do you respond to that kind of thinking? Well, you know what,

I'm gonna say this, and I'm not saying this about Eric, because I've known

Eric for over 20 years. God can even speak through the mouth of the jackass.

So even if Eric went into the Greek Orthodox Church, which he did, the theology is still sound.

And you mean the theology of the documentary? Yes, I wrote most of it.

Eric, there were a couple of I called them Eric, Eric isms. And they're now

I will tell you this. Since I've known Eric, he is he was blown around by every wind of doctrine.

All the time. It seemed like I was battling with him and trying to bring back into the fold.

I know a lot of times. I mean, when I first met him, he was a charismatic in a word faith movement church.

Then he became a Pentecostal, then he became a Southern Baptist, then he became an independent

Baptist, then he became a charismatic Calvinist, then he became B, he was actually a member of George Grant's church at one time.

Wow. And, you know, he, he would talk to me about how

Roman Catholics are Christians. And I would tell him, Eric, I'm not saying they're not,

I'm not saying you haven't met the few that really believe in double imputation.

I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is, if they follow the Roman Catholic view of salvation of justification, then they're not right.

That is and that is the dogmatic view that the Council of Trent since forth. Yeah, that works.

Our deeds cooperate with not only the deeds of Christ, but the from the treasury of merit from the

Mary and the saints all combined together. And that that is damning, according to the scriptures, according to the

Apostle Paul, what kind of thinking and his letter to the church at Galatia makes it clear that this kind of thinking is damnable.

Yeah, and I would agree. And, you know, I don't know why Eric did that. I really don't.

The only thing I could tell you is keep him in your prayers. Lord willing, he'll return back to the fold.

Right. And by the way, Eric, if you are listening, when I say that you're an apostate, I'm not trying to be cruel.

But the Eastern Orthodox Church mixes minces, no words in their view towards the heirs of the

Reformation. They pronounce anathemas on us because we even just over the one issue of the the the what's the word

I'm looking for? Not the veneration, the veneration of icons, since we view that as idolatry and we view that as worshiping idols, even though they swear that they are not worshiping these these artifacts and images, even though everything that they do under the guise of veneration is worship, no matter what they say.

There is no love lost between the Eastern Orthodoxy and their attitude towards Protestants.

So it's this is not like some kind of one way street where Protestants are bashing

Eastern Orthodox. The Eastern Orthodox do not have any fond view of the

Protestant Reformation or its heirs. So I just wanted to get that out of the way. Yeah.

And let me say this, brother, in my own studies, and I'm nowhere an expert on Eastern Orthodox, but my assessment of what

I've seen so far is the Eastern Orthodox grab on to the

Galatian heresy, the Judaizer heresy, and they have no Reformation to straighten them out.

Not at all. That's right. And we do plan to have Jason Wallace back on the program, by the way, who is the pastor of Christ Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, who created the documentary,

The Failure of Eastern Orthodoxy. He's coming back on and he's going to be speaking about an

Eastern Orthodox bishop who shortly after the

Protestant Reformation came to endorse and embrace and teach some of the core teachings of the

Reformation. So that may be an eye -opener to many people in and out of the Eastern Orthodox religion.

Yeah, when I was researching the video, I read Dr. R .C.

Sproul's book, The Holiness of God, and he had a quote in there that I believe is in the

Amazing Grace documentary, and I'm gonna try to say it back to you without it in front of me, without trying to slaughter it, so bear with me.

But he said, he said, Church history is not the rule, but it is a guide.

And that's something we need to remember. It's not the rule. It is the guide. If you come across a passage of Scripture that nobody else has had in 2 ,000 years or has been championed by a universally recognized heretic, chances are pretty good you better abandon your interpretation.

And I thought that was a great quote and a great understanding of church history. I'm one that I have a high view of church history, but I don't believe the early church fathers were infallible.

I don't believe the people today are infallible. There are things I disagree with John Calvin on.

There's a lot more I disagree with Martin Luther on, but I believe that they got the essentials correct.

That's right. And we're going to our first commercial break. If you have a question for Jerry Johnson, not only on the documentary but perhaps even on the issue of the theology of Calvinism itself, aka

Reformed Theology, aka the Doctrines of Grace, aka the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace, aka the

Doctrines of Free Grace, send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Jerry Johnson right after these messages. Have you noticed the gap that exists between the

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That's RoyalDiadem .com. Don't forget to mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back to discuss this amazing documentary,

Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism. If you have a question for Jerry Johnson, our email address is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. For our listeners who may be outside of the orbit of Reformed Theology, because I do have listeners that are not quote -unquote

Calvinists or Reformed Christians, or perhaps you're just new to not only

Christianity itself, but perhaps you're new to embracing Reformed Theology, and you are having a hard time explaining this, this system of theology, which we believe to be biblical, of course, to others who either have never heard of it or reject it.

What would you say, Jerry, are some of the primary ways in which

Calvinism differs from all of its theological rivals, whether it be those in the

Church of Rome, Eastern Orthodoxy, or what appears to be the majority of Evangelical Protestantism in our day and age.

That was not always the case. Calvinism at one time was dominant amongst Evangelical Protestants, but we are definitely today in the 21st century a tiny minority, a growing minority, but nonetheless,

I believe we are a minority. Tell us about, in your opinion, what are the some of the pillar reasons that there is a difference that we believe, obviously, to be biblical?

Well, I would say, for me at least, because that's all I can talk about is what

I experienced. I had started reading about Calvinism, and I was at the house of a guy that was an elder at the

PCA Church in Birmingham. I can't remember what his name is. Oh, Harry Reid?

No, I'm sorry. I was at an elder's house. His name was Lewis Henderson.

Okay. Well, what is the name of the church in Birmingham? Right now? Briarwood. Briarwood.

Yes, yes, and that's where the late Harry Reid was most recently the pastor there.

He had a predecessor whose name escapes me right now, also a well -known name. This was a ruling elder, and I was over at his house.

I was going to stay the night there. I did, and Lewis had had a hernia operation, and he liked having me stay the night because then we could just sit around in the evening time and talk theology, and he goes at one point, and this is what sparked that question to my friend

Larry Marlin that I said before we saw Robert Self's book. What sparked my question was he said, you do believe in total depravity, and I was like,

I was saying it to myself. I don't know what that means, but I should believe in it.

It sounds like I should, and that's the question

I asked Larry. What is total depravity, and that's when he went into his diatribe about Calvinism.

Now, Larry ultimately became a Calvinist when I did, but I saw in my own mind, and in the scriptures, you have to understand man's fallen state, and that was the thing that I guess

I had never done before, and I will tell you this with a bit of a story starting out.

I had this guy. This was probably around 2001, 2002.

He was a Southern Baptist pastor in Talladega, Alabama, and he was a real nice guy.

In fact, one of the loveliest men I had ever spoken with, and he really loved the

Lord, and he said to me, I perceive that you are a Calvinist.

Can you tell me what Calvinism means? And I said to him, I'm not going to say his name because I don't have permission, but I will say his first name because I'm sure he's gone from that church now, or at least

I hope he is. I don't want to get him in trouble, but I said,

Alan, I will talk with you, but we have to set some ground rules first, and he said, he looked kind of surprised that he said ground rules, and I said, yeah, open up your

Bible to Romans 3, 10, and 11, and I want you to read that out loud.

Now, I'm gonna read that to you real quick. Give me a chance to look it up. And while you're looking up,

I'm going to repeat our email address if you'd like to join us with a question of your own. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are in a non -Reformed or non -Calvinist church.

You're starting to rethink the theology that you are being taught in your own church, and perhaps you are considering the doctrines of Sovereign Grace or Calvinism, and you don't want to draw attention to your identity at this point.

We fully understand that, and there are similar reasons why someone might want to remain anonymous.

We will grant your request, and so you can send in a question anonymously, but please, if it's just a general question, give us the first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

So, as you were saying. All right, I'm gonna read from the New King James Version.

I figure if it was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me. Let's not forget the

NASB sponsored this program, but anyway. I might say that every time. So, anyway,

I had Alan open up to Romans 3, 10, and 11, and I said,

I'm gonna ask you a question, and I want you to seriously answer it. I don't want you to give me the answer that you think

I'm looking for. What I want you to do is seriously answer the question, and he goes, okay, what is the question?

And the question was, do you believe there is a point in time that you were honestly seeking after God?

And without missing a beat, he said, yes, and I said, now read Romans 3, 10, and 11, and I want you to read it out loud, and he read it, and here it goes.

As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one, for there is none who understands, there is none who seeks after God.

They have all turned aside, they have all together become unprofitable.

There is no one who does good, no, not one. And I said to him,

Alan, are you gonna listen to the testimony of Scripture or the testimony of your own experience?

Because from my viewpoint, I could honestly say that there seemed to be a point in time where I was looking for God, and here it says there's no one who does good, no, not one, but your experience tells you you did good, and he goes, man, it was like a light had gone off in his head.

And I said, you need to listen to the testimony of Scripture, not your emotions, not your feelings, nothing other than the

Scriptures. And then I took him through all the passages that talk about total depravity, and we're a slave to sin, we're dead in our sins, the very imaginations of our thought are evil continually, and Romans after that gives what

I call the anatomy of fallen man. And when you realize that man is dead, man is not drowning in a pool of sin, man has already drowned, he is dead, he is at the bottom, he can't hear, he can't respond, he can't do anything unless God resuscitates him, regenerates him, and that's where the doctrine of regeneration comes into play.

R .C. Sproul, in that same book, The Holiness of God, said Armenians, and he actually wrote semi -Pelagians because he made them out to be equal, which they are, but he said semi -Pelagians have dead men choosing to be alive.

Now, you might remember in the Amazing Grace documentary, we have a little vignette that shows a dead man or an author going to a graveyard, trying to sell a book, resurrecting yourself, what the dead can do to help.

And he's trying to get people to buy his book who are already dead. They can't, they can't buy the book, they can't read it, they're dead.

And that's the way the Bible describes a sinner, a fallen sinner who is not in Christ.

And remember, in Psalms 119 .11, for the Son, God came to seek and save that which was lost.

He is the one who seeks. He is the one who saves. So, when we understand total depravity,

I believe everything else will then fall into place. All right, did you want to make a comment there, brother?

Oh, I just wanted to include in your evidence there, John chapter 1, verse 13, that it's very clear that we were born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of a man, but of God.

So, therefore, this idea that we, in our natural state before our regeneration, could possibly, in a saving way, choose

Christ, and submit to Him, and follow Him, and repent of our sins, and so on, to think that we could do that in our natural state is not scriptural.

One thing, I don't know if you, make sure you don't lose your place, because if you're going to lose your place, you can continue on.

But I just wanted to ask you something, if it's possible, before you move on to your next point.

Yes, sir. Don't you think a lot of the confusion over this is that the doctrines of grace, also known as Calvinism and Reformed theology, are very often highlighting the invisible things that God is doing that bring about His will and purposes, whereas the

Arminian is focused too much on the physical things that they see. For instance, you have an

Arminian who knows that before he was born again, was curious about what a particular pastor, or church, or denomination, or fellowship was teaching, and they made sure that they arrived at a particular worship service on time, and they wanted to hear what the man had to say, and they heard the gospel, and perhaps it was even the first time that they heard the gospel.

That is not always the case, but many times you will hear stories about testimonies about how people hear the gospel, and the light goes on in their mind.

They realize it's true, and they cry out to the Lord for forgiveness. They want to be a disciple of Christ.

They want to be baptized. They want to be a part of His church. They do not want to pay for their own sins in hell, and so on.

So they will say, well see, I was seeking. I was interested in what this preacher had to say.

I attended that church service, but they don't know, or what they refuse to see, is that it was because God had begun to chisel away at their hearts of stone, and since this is an invisible thing, they automatically assign to the texts that you were citing from the

Scripture, that no one seeketh after God, no not one, they will just say, oh that's hyperbole, that's poetry or something, because I sought after God.

But those texts are really talking about man in his unregenerate state, am

I right? Yeah, yes. The thing is, and let me say this,

I think that the question to Alan was very legitimate, and I think that's why

I think a lot of Armenians are going off their emotions, their feelings, and before I had the stroke,

I used to preach a lot at different churches, and one thing I used to love to do is

I would stand up and I would say, okay, I'm going to read 2nd

Timothy 3 .16, all feelings are given by inspiration of God.

No, no, I'm sorry, I got the wrong translation. My people perish for a lack of emotions.

Oh, no, I'm sorry, you shall live by every experience that comes out of the mouth of God.

No, that's not what it says. It always emphasizes the Word, and the thing is, we have got to go back to the

Word, and too many people, they'll see a passage like John 3 .16

that will say, whosoever will, and they said, whosoever will.

See, it's right there, but what they're not understanding is, I agree with that. Whosoever will, that is not an endorsement for free will theology.

That is, men have a will. What will men's will always choose?

That is the question, and a regenerate, unrepentant child of the devil will always choose evil unless God intervenes, and that is something that they have not gotten, and that's why

I tell people, yeah, man has a will, but we don't have a free will. We're in bondage to our will, and you can't go off a 20 -story building and jump off and flap your arms.

Why not? If your free will says you can do it, you're going to end up splatted on the ground, so you can only do that which your will allows you to do.

I like what Dr. Kennedy said in the Amazing Grace DVD. He said, man is free to do what he wants to do, but he is not free to do what he ought to do, and what he ought to do is repent and believe.

And let's pick up where you left off there. We have to go to our midway break. Please be patient with us, folks, because the midway break is always a little longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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Before I return to my guest, Jerry Johnson, and our discussion of the documentary

Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism, now in its 19th year of existence, we are now celebrating the 19th anniversary of this wonderful documentary.

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To support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is obviously not a command of God, but if you love the show, you don't want it to disappear, and you have extra money in the bank above and beyond your ability to support church and family, you have extra money for binoctrinally saw text in the

Bible by those who are outside of Reformed theology, which comes from Revelation chapter 22 and the second half of verse 17,

Whosoever will may come, and whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. It seems that our

Arminian friends, our Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox friends, and all other people who claim to be

Christian who are in opposition to the doctrines of sovereign grace, they seem to think that text is saying anybody is able to come, and it's not saying that.

It's saying whosoever will may come, which is just a fancy way of saying anybody who wants to may come, and the issue is who wants to, and I want to throw an analogy by you.

Please forgive me. I'm asking forgiveness of my audience members who may have heard me use this analogy many times and they're tired of it, but I just happen to think it's a good analogy and I wonder what your thoughts are.

Imagine I am standing in a large room and the room is filled with Christians, Orthodox Jews, and Muslims, and I announce through a loudspeaker to everyone gathered anybody who wants to come to my home for a pig roast may come.

Whosoever will may come. Who's going to want to come to the pig roast? If there are Orthodox Jews there who think that that would be blasphemy, and there are

Muslims there who think that would be blasphemy, and there are Christians there who love to eat pork and frequently do, and obviously there are some

Christians who are vegans and other things that wouldn't come either, but the issue is those who want to are going to come.

Those who want to partake in that kind of food are going to come, and isn't that the same thing with the gospel?

You present the gospel to everyone because we don't have a way of reading the minds and hearts and souls of people.

We announce the gospel, we proclaim and declare the gospel, and when God changes their hearts, which is required, he has to do a heart transplant, he has to remove their parts of stone and give them hearts of flesh, then they're going to want to come to Christ.

Did what I said make any sense? Yes sir, it did.

The thing is, that is the key thing. Arminians, Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, they look at that passage through their own experience and not the scriptures, and what they're saying is that anybody at any time for any reason can come to God, but the passage we quoted earlier,

Romans 3, 10, and 11, disproves that. You cannot come any time you want.

You can't fry, you can't, I mean, I wish I could run a 5k,

I can't, but if God gives me the strength to do it, then I can, and I know the same thing about coming to Christ, to the

Lord Jesus. You have to have your heart and your mind and your will changed by him in order to come, and that was really the thing that kind of got me the most.

Let me say something real quick. Sure. Is Michael Gadosh still at Solid Ground?

Yes, he is. Michael Gadosh is a great man, I love his bookstore,

I would encourage anybody to get books from that guy, he is really great.

Amen. So, a little plug there for Michael Gadosh, he owes me a

Starbucks if I ever see him again. Let me also do this, because you asked me what are the things that made me become a

Calvinist, and the first thing was understanding the will of man.

Man's will was in bondage to its sinful nature. God came to seek and save that which was lost, which was me, and I understand that.

The second thing was the atonement, and I would really encourage people to get John Murray's book,

Redemption Accomplished and Applied. That was a great book, but in the

Scriptures, in John chapter 10, starting at verse 22, and I'm going to read from the

New American Standard Bible, because if it was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me.

That was for you, brother. Yes, I appreciate that, and I know that my sponsors, the publishers of the

NASB, appreciate it more than I do. All right, at that time, starting at verse 22, at that time, the

Feast of Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple area in the portico of Solomon.

The Jews then surrounded him and began saying to him, how long will you keep us in the suspense?

If you are the Christ, tell us plainly. And Jesus' answer to them was very revealing.

Christ, tell us, oh, I'm sorry, Jesus answered them and said, I told you, and you do not believe.

The works I do in my Father's name, these testify to me, but you do not believe because you are not of my sheep.

And earlier, in the same book, John chapter 10, he says,

I lay down my life for my sheep. And here he's saying, you are not my sheep.

I'm not laying down my life for you. And you know, I can say from a totally humanistic viewpoint, that doesn't seem fair.

And I liked what R .C. Sproul said, if you want God to be fair, then we should all be in hell.

Every morning we get up, God should have killed us in our sleep for the sins that we committed before.

But we have Christ blood and he died for his elect.

I don't know how plain it can be. Now, I heard an analogy one time and I thought it was good and I'll try to do justice to it without slaughtering it.

Imagine, if you will, that you go through a speed zone that is 25 miles an hour and they're posted up all over the place.

You're fine. Would it be unjust for the judge or the court system to then exact another payment for you?

Your payment has already been made. Even though it was made by me, it has already been made.

I give the payment. So if God, if Christ died for our sins and paid, and that is the key thing, if he paid for our sins with his own blood, then our sins are forgiven, past, present, and future.

Amen. And I think that we should repeat something, just in case this flew over the heads of our listeners.

Perhaps they were distracted and didn't hear you clearly. Remember in John chapter 10 verse 26, which

Jerry cited before among other passages, you do not believe because you are not of my sheep.

My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me.

That is clearly saying that people do not become Christ's sheep by believing.

They believe because they are already Christ's sheep. A goat can never become a sheep.

A sheep can never become a goat. I said that to Dr. Kennedy when

I was at Rillingham, because a little girl at Larry Martin's church said, the

Bible says that Christ came to seek the sheep.

He didn't say he came to turn goats into sheep. And Dr. Kennedy goes, wow, that's good.

I said, yeah, out of the mouth of babes, you know, because it was a little girl who said that.

Amen. And a text of Scripture that clearly bolsters this concept that we were just discussing, that I have never heard any

Arminian or non -reformed Christian even come close to giving an adequate answer that was not logically consistent.

Acts 13, 48. Acts 13, 48.

And when the Gentiles heard this, and this is referring to the declaration of the gospel, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the

Lord and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

The appointing to eternal life occurred prior to their believing the

Gentiles. It was not their believing that appointed them to eternal life. It was their their precondition of hearing the gospel before hearing the gospel that they were appointed to the eternal life that enabled them to believe.

And even a friend of mine, Dr. F. LaGarde Smith, who is from a

Church of Christ background, and if anybody knows anything about the Church of Christ, they know that 99 .99

% of those who identify with that group are adamantly opposed to Calvinism or what they think

Calvinism teaches. And even Dr. F. LaGarde Smith, when he wrote a book seeking to refute

Calvinism, he said that he had no answer for this text.

And he said that every attempt that he saw from a non -Calvinist to try to exegete this passage in a way differently than a

Calvinist would, he believed they were guilty of eisegesis, that they were twisting what the text said.

So even he admitted in his book that he had no answer for that. I just thought

I'd throw that in there. Brother, I'm going to tell you two stories real quick.

Sure. After Amazing Grace came out, it must have been out for like six months,

I had a guy call me up, and he called up the apologetics group, and he was a pastor of a

Christian church, Disciples of Christ. They're part of the old restoration movement, like the

Churches of Christ. They believe in baptismal, or what do they call it?

They say it's necessary for the remission of sins. Yes, they do.

They believe baptism is necessary. They call it a baptismal decisionism or something like that.

Oldest I've ever heard is, baptism is necessary for the remission of sins. I've never heard them use the term baptismal regeneration.

You know what? That might have been a term we used. So anyway, this guy calls me up, and he says,

I've watched Amazing Grace like five times. I have gotten the book by A .W.

Pink and the one by Lorraine Bettner. A .W. Pink's book was

The Sovereignty of God, a great book. Lorraine Bettner's book was

The Reform Doctrine of Predestination, another good book. He said,

I'm about to tell my elders that I've become a Calvinist.

I just wanted you to know. He ended up going to Westminster Seminary. He left the church and went to Westminster Seminary.

I did lose contact with him, but we sat there and prayed together because he said,

I don't know what the reaction of my church is going to be. At that point, he wasn't planning on going to Westminster Seminary, but he eventually did.

Anyway, he told his church, and at first they said fine.

As time went on, he realized that he could no longer preach that.

He said, all I can preach now is Christ and him crucified. We have a question from a listener in Yappank, Long Island, New York, Billy.

He asks, does your guest, Jerry Johnson, believe that it is required to understand and accept the doctrines of Calvinism to be saved?

All right, my answer to that, because I've been asked that numerous times throughout the year, I am going to say no.

God doesn't call us to be theologians and scholars before he saves us.

A lot of times he saves us in our ignorance. So I don't know.

I really don't know. I can only tell you because I believe there are many people that espouse the doctrines of grace, but they don't really believe them.

They're not really saved. They're pretenders to the gospel. So I don't believe just because you accept what we call

Calvinism saves you. Christ alone saves you, not the doctrine.

We don't see these are the only things that I believe a person needs to believe and embrace.

And it's interesting to me how often when I hear a godly

Arminian or non -Calvinist speak or pray, they sound like they are believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace because their words reveal that they are trusting in the finished work of Christ alone, and not in their deeds, not in their efforts, not in their merits.

They're not boasting in their own free will. When they are in a discussion with a

Calvinist where they may be in disagreement about how the human will works, they may be adamant about things on paper they say they believe.

But when the rubber meets the road, especially in a crisis in their life, they sound very often just like they are members of a

Reformed church. Wouldn't you agree with that experience? Yes, sir. In fact, if you watch

Amazing Grace, we actually put on there the prayer of an Arminian by Charles Spurgeon, and he said you never hear an

Arminian prayer. Arminian, the minute they start to pray for Aunt Mary's salvation, they're asking

God to violate her free will. And as J .I.

Packer once said, every Arminian is a Calvinist on his knees. Yep, and that is true.

They are. Now, let me tell you the second story. I had this pastor call me up.

He was Reformed, and his church was kind of 50 -50.

They didn't know what Reformational theology was. And some of them did it.

And they showed Amazing Grace in the church on a Wednesday night over eight weeks.

They got the study guide that went with it. And he said he called me up and he goes,

I just wanted to tell you there is this woman that has been coming to our church.

She's an elderly woman. She's been a member for like 45 years, one of the most gracious people you would ever meet.

And we got done with that study about four weeks ago. And he had been pastor there for like 15 years.

And evidently, this sweet lady is calling him up every day with all of these theological questions.

He finally said to her, you know, I've been pastor here for 15 years, and you've never called me with a theological question.

But in the last couple of weeks, that is all you've done every day. What happened?

And she said, after you showed that video, I realized how big

God is. And the Arminian God was not that impressive.

He couldn't do his will. But the God of the

Bible can do his will. And that is what I learned. And he was like head over heels that she was calling up with all these theological questions.

So I wanted to share that with your audience, because I thought that was one of the best testimonies out there.

When you realize how big God is, and that is when you believe in the sovereignty of God, not just the word void of content, when you actually believe in the sovereignty of God, and you realize

I had a stroke, it's been almost five years. Why did God let me have a stroke?

I mean, I've been asked that numerous times. And my answer is always the same.

I give two answers. God can do whatever he wants to do. And I wrote a documentary about the sovereignty of God.

I better not complain. I would have rather not had it. But God should have thrown me into the lake of fire.

That is what I deserve. If he saved me, even if I had died and he saved me, that is enough for me.

The second thing I tell people is, you know, God meant it unto good.

Amen. Just like, just like... Romans 8 .28. Yeah, just like Joseph's brothers threw him in that well.

God, they meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. I don't know why.

I don't understand why. But I trust his plan. And if I cease to exist after this interview, and I hope

I make it to the interview. Because, yeah, I don't want to die on you.

Hey, that may raise my ratings. Yeah, it might.

But, brother, oh, my little puppy just came up to me and licked me, licked my leg.

So, anyway. Hey, let's not imitate Joe Biden here. We don't want to... Oh, shame on you.

We have a listener, Georgette, in Ottumwa, Iowa, who says,

Could you please give us the primary reason why you believe Christians should believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace?

And you may have already answered it in what you just said, but do you have anything else you'd like to say in regard to an answer to that?

First, I want to say, if she's from Ottumwa, Iowa, I want to know if she knows

Radar O 'Reilly. That's right. That's where he was from in MASH. You're right. In fact, there is a classic line.

I hope Georgette is not insulted by this. One of the funniest lines in MASH was when

Radar was going to call home for some reason, when they were being permitted to make phone calls to their homes in the

United States. And he came into one of the tents and he said,

Does anybody know what time it is in Ottumwa, Iowa? And the...

I can't remember his name. The character that was a snob from Boston, aristocratic snob.

Winchester. Yes. So when Radar says, Does anyone know what time it is in Ottumwa, Iowa?

Winchester says, 1692. But I hope you weren't insulted by that,

Georgette. I hope you found it funny as well. Read that question again, brother. She wants to know what is the primary reason you believe that Christians should accept the doctrines of sovereign grace?

Yeah. The key thing is that I would say is the sovereignty of God. God can do what he wants when he wants.

And his creation cannot rise up against him and say, Why have you done this?

Romans 9. And that's what

I would say. In the end, it's all about the sovereignty of God. He does what he wants.

And I would also say, as I've said to many people, the system of theology known as Calvinism or reformed theology or the doctrines of sovereign grace is the only system of theology where a

Christian can say, I owe 100 percent of the praise, honor, glory and thanksgiving to Christ for my salvation and everything else.

Many Armenians, if not most, would say that, but they would not be logically consistent.

Yeah. And that's the thing. I read many sermons by John Wesley.

I believe John Wesley was a great preacher. But when it came to justification,

I mean, he would say things about original sin and total gravity. But then he couldn't connect the dots for some reason.

Right. You know, George Whitfield looked upon him as his brother in Christ, even though they had vociferous and heated debates through the mail, primarily,

I believe. But he still viewed Wesley as his brother in Christ. And he requested of Wesley to preach at his funeral when he died.

And Wesley did that. Yeah. Yeah. Let me tell you this one thing about George Whitfield.

Somebody asked George Whitfield one day, will we see John Wesley in heaven?

And George Whitfield said, no, we won't. And the reason we won't is he will be so close to our father's throne and we will be so far away, we won't be able to behold him at that distance.

That's right. And I thought that was very gracious. Amen. We have to go to our final break right now.

So if you haven't submitted your question yet, if you have any intention to, please do it now. Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com.

We'll be right back with Jerry Johnson on Amazing Grace, the history and theology of Calvinism.

Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study?

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avino, and thanks for listening. Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

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Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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God -centered focus, reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing

Psalms and hymns. We have a listener,

Jerry, with a name that I have never heard before, Velvet.

I actually like that name very much. It would be a great disc jockey name, too. Velvet in Paradise Hills, New Mexico, says,

I am having a hard time agreeing with Calvinists over the issue of whether or not a true

Christian can lose his or her salvation. I have personally known people whose faith seemed to be vividly real for so many years who wound up ultimately completely abandoning the faith.

It's hard for my mind to reconcile with that experience your views that a true

Christian cannot lose their salvation. That's a very good question and a very commonly asked question.

Jerry, what do you have to say about that? All right. What I would say is there was a time

I believe that also. Let me go back and say he's looking at his experience, not what the scriptures say.

Velvet could be a woman. You said he. Do what? I said the listener could be a woman,

Velvet. All right. Remember in Philippians 1 .18,

and this was really the verse that kind of cemented it for me.

Because the doctrine of eternal security is only half of the doctrine of perseverance of the same.

Right. It's a true statement, but it's not adequate. Eternal security is true, but not adequate because it doesn't explain the whole.

I will tell you, there was a time I believed in eternal security and I didn't understand the perseverance of the saints.

But God says in Philippians 1 that the good work that he and he's talking there about the

Holy Spirit that he started in you. He will bring to completion until the day of Christ.

God started it. God is going to bring it to completion. Not you.

I don't know. You said that you do people that live.

We actually have that in the documentary. You know, somebody lived for Christ and for 20 years and then they abandoned the faith and then they got killed in a car accident.

And the question is asked, is this person in heaven? I don't know. You know,

I don't know. The only thing I could tell you is the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is throughout scripture.

Think of John 3 .16. When did you get eternal life?

When you believed. If you can lose eternal life, then it wasn't eternal to begin with.

Right. The word or phrase eternal life is presented to us as a past tense gift.

Yeah. And also, obviously, one of the most powerful verses regarding this subject is 1st

John 2 .19. They went out from us, but they were not really of us.

For if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it would be evident that they are they all are not of us.

And obviously, when a person is demonstrating for a season in their life, credible evidence that they're truly born again.

We don't know all that's going on in their minds and hearts. We don't know how much of that is a masquerade.

We don't know how much of their faith had to do with the benefits of being a

Christian that they were enjoying. You know, there are things that we just don't know. And this again goes back to my statement at the very beginning.

That our non -reformed friends are often overlooking the invisible things and basing their faith on only things that they can see, hear, smell, taste and touch.

They're only looking at physical things. Right. Not what is going on behind the scenes, either what our sovereign

God is doing or even the depths of man's sinfulness. We don't know that lovely elderly lady next door that we think is the sweetest person on earth, but who does not love

Christ. We do not know the depths of the evil in her heart and mind unless she advertises them to us.

But anyway, Velvet, I think you're a first time questioner. Please send us your full name and address in Paradise Hills, New Mexico, so that you can receive a free

New American Standard Bible. And that goes for anybody else that was a first time questioner today who submitted a question.

Jerry, I want you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners. What I would say, and I'm just going to encourage people.

If they go to YouTube and they type in Amazing Grace, the history and theology of Calvinism.

Now the video is four hours and 17 minutes long. And I'll let you know it started out being 55 minutes.

But there was no way that we could answer all the objections in 55 minutes.

So we made it over four hours long. And you can go there and watch the whole thing, which

I think would be good. You could do it for free. We don't sell it anymore because initially it was out on DVD.

But I don't know how many people have DVD players anymore. I don't even have one.

So you can watch it for free. A guy has, or I'm saying it's a guy, could be a girl, called

Christian Documentaries. They have the whole thing online. Watch it before you make a judgment.

Amen. And remember that in spite of the narrator Eric Holmberg's departure from the faith, the truth is the truth.

So the contents of that documentary, which comes straight out of the word of God, the

God that breathed inerrant words of Scripture, no matter what is going on in Eric's heart, mind, and life, is immaterial to the truths in this documentary.

And I hope you take advantage of it. I want to thank you so much, Jerry, for being my guest.

I look forward to your frequent return to Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio. There's always an open door here for you.

I just want to remind our listeners, if you're able to give to Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio without cutting into the finances required to support your church and family, please help us.

We are in urgent need of your help. Go to ironsharpandzionradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater