Lexical Sources

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an Elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. And welcome to The Dividing Line on a Tuesday morning, I'm glad it's Tuesday morning and not

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Thursday afternoon. About two -thirds of the air conditioning in our offices is non -operational at the moment and this is

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Phoenix, Arizona, where I believe the predicted high today is supposed to be 105, 106, something around that area.

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Now those of you back east don't really care about that right now because you have temperatures only about 3 or 4 degrees cooler, but your humidity is about 5 times what ours is, so you don't really care too much about that.

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But you might hear a little extra noise in the background, that's not your computer fan dying or anything else. I have a fan in here and I have it a full notch up because we have a lot of fans going on in the office right now sucking the cool air out of the area where the

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AC is still working and getting it into the area where it ain't. So that's our situation today, just didn't want you to think there was something wrong with your computer or that the dreaded power supply fan was going or something like that.

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I have put on the website, on the blog, a few graphics, well they don't look like graphics because they're graphics of text, but some citations from some lexical sources and I invite you to bring up the blog.

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You might say, yeah, but I don't read Greek. Well, these are all from my Accordance, actually, two or three are from my

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Accordance software. One is from Logos because I have one of the resources in Logos that I don't have in Accordance.

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And what I want to talk to you about today is being careful in the process of exegesis.

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While I was writing yesterday, I was listening to portions of a radio debate that I did a long time ago, back around 2000, 2001, with Robert St.

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Genes on the subject of purgatory, which is one of the subjects that we will be debating this fall. And the focus was upon 1

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Corinthians chapter 3. Now those of you who listened to the completely ignored debate with Tim Staples on the subject of purgatory, which always makes me chuckle, when we debated papal infallibility, the

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Roman Catholics never made it available. And we debate purgatory, and Catholic Answers doesn't say a word about it.

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Now when Tim Staples debates other folks, they promote it, and they put it out there, and they're still promoting debates that were done 13 years ago that weren't really even debates.

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But we actually have a real debate with their current champion, and oh, we just can't get around to mentioning that one.

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We don't want our audience listening to that. I think that says a lot. But if you remember that particular debate, then you know that we focused like a laser beam, as some people say, on 1

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Corinthians chapter 3 in the exegesis that was offered at—that's what the debate was really supposed to be about, was, is 1

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Corinthians chapter 3 relevant to the doctrine of purgatory? We got into other things, but anyway. Now, as I listened to the radio program that I did with Roberts and Jenis—this was on the

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Andy Anderson show, the late Andy Anderson, back quite some time ago. He has passed away since then.

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I noticed that Roberts and Jenis put much more weight on the argumentation that the

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Greek term zamiato, which is translated suffer loss, both the

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NET, the NASB, the ESV, all render this as suffer loss, that he put a lot of weight upon this.

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In fact, he went through an extensive listing of septuagint uses of zamiato, zamiatomai, that particular root family, and argued that it means to punish.

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And if you recall, in the debate with Staples, we specifically had a caller when we took some calls toward the end of the encounter.

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We had a caller who was a Catholic apologist himself, who likewise attempted to push the zamiato issue that Staples really had not pushed very strongly.

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And so this got me thinking about how you handle information.

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Let's say you have Accordance, you have BibleWorks, you have Logos, those are the big three, and you utilize the resources that are available to you in them, whether it be—well, for example, if we look at the—let's take a look at the blog graphic.

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And if you're listening to this later, this would still be, Lord willing, on the blog, for the date of July 6th, 2010.

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The first graphic is from the Bauer, Dunker, Arndt, and Gingrich.

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Now if you hear people say Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Dunker, which is easier to say, by the way, they're referring to the second edition, which was what—and in fact, if you go back and listen to old dividing lines or old debates that I've done, you'll hear me say

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B -A -G -D, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Dunker. That was the second edition. If you have the hard copy of it, it's green, it has a green cover.

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The new edition came out, I don't know, a number of years ago now. Its slip cover is a putrid pink color.

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It really looks like Pepto -Bismol, if you want to recognize it. But it's the third edition, and that's what this is taken from.

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And then the next two graphics, you see that Bauer, Dunker, Arndt, and Gingrich, which is the standard scholarly

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Greek lexicon today. It's the first thing you reach for. It's the standard one used in translation, citation, et cetera, et cetera.

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Then—and you can get this in Accordance, you can get it in Bioworks, you can get it in Logos. There may be other programs, but those are the three that I know.

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And then below that, you have another one that's very common in your standard computer programs today.

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The next two are from the low Anita Greek lexicon based upon semantic domains.

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Let me explain what that is. A semantic domain, words in all languages, English, all ancient languages, have what's called a semantic domain.

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And that is the range of meanings that the word is attested to have in antiquity or could have in the modern

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English language. And technical terms, then, would have a very narrow semantic domain.

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Some words just have one meaning and there's very little nuance to it. Some words, however, especially very ancient words, can have a wide semantic domain.

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They can be used in a lot of different ways. Think about our term light.

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You've got—you can say someone's very light. Their arguments are lightweight. You have light beer. You turn on the light.

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I mean, there's just all sorts of things that only context can really tell you about.

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The wider a word's semantic domain, the more dependent you're going to be upon the context of its usage to be able to know exactly what the author is intending.

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And of course, when you use words with wide semantic domains, you have to be very careful to express by the context your specific meaning, lest you be misunderstood.

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Now, the concept of the low and neat lexicon, which is a very useful lexicon,

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I had—it was a two -volume lexicon that first came out. I had it rebound by someone many, many moons ago into one volume.

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But it's, again, it's available electronically in many, many forms. I've got it on my iPod

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Touch. I have it on my iPad. I have it on my phone. I mean, it's just that widely available now, is that it groups words together according to semantic domain.

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And so you'll notice that the next two entries we have on the blog are marked 38 .7 and 57 .69.

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But you'll notice that the words are the same. Zemiao is—has two lexical forms.

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Zemiao, as you see it in the first graphic. And then zemiaomai is another appropriate lexical form for this term.

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Then zemia, feminine form, listed after that under 57 .69.

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What low and neat it does, because it's primarily designed for translators, is it puts words in areas of meaning so you can see how they differ from one another, how they have different shades of meaning from one another.

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And you'll notice that zemiaomai says, to be punished with the implication of suffering damage, to be punished, to suffer punishment.

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And then you'll have the section from 1 Corinthians chapter 15, but if anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer punishment, 1

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Corinthians 3 .15. It is also possible to understand zemiaomai in 1 Corinthians 3 .15 as meaning simply to suffer loss, see 57 .69.

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So what's the next graphic? 57 .69. To suffer loss of something which one has previously possessed with the implication that the loss involves considerable hardship or suffering, to suffer loss or forfeit.

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And you see the connection between the two. Then the last graphic is from the

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Milagos library. And this is from Kittles Theological Dictionary of the

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New Testament. The large Kittles, the 10 -volume set that looks so wonderfully gorgeous on your bookshelf, but again is now available in electronic form as well.

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And here you have a much longer discussion. We're going to look at that in just a moment, but I wanted to let you know what you're looking at.

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So what you're looking at is Bauer, Donker, Arendt, and Gingrich. Then you're looking at two references from Lowe and Nida.

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And then you are looking at Kittles Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. I should have marked each one, but I was in a hurry to get the door and get down here this morning.

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So there's what we have on the blog. Now why would I provide that to you? Well, the vast majority of translations

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I have not yet encountered, but this is something I'll be doing more work on between now and October when the debate on Purgatory will take place.

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I have not yet encountered a translation that translates this, at least a major modern translation that translates 1

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Corinthians 3 .15 as if a man's work is burned up, he will be punished, but he himself will be saved, and so as through fire.

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But the fact of the matter is that when you look at the Greek term zemiao, then you discover that it has a semantic domain, and within its semantic domain is the idea of punishment.

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But within the same semantic domain, you have the concept of suffering loss.

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Now, when you look at lexical sources, if you are a person who has decided to invest in some really good

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Bible software, which is a wonderful thing to have, you need to realize that everything you read in those graphics

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I placed upon the blog, and this is a great example of scholarly information and interpretation.

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Many people, especially if you haven't been able to do a lot of educational study over the years, attend seminary, whatever it might be, labor under the misconception that scholars, somehow when you go through the process of scholarship, bias and personal prejudice are removed from you.

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That's not the case. Hopefully, you learn the process of being able to do study in such a way as to filter your bias, and the more you're aware of your bias, the better things are.

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And we are all trained, at least, well, okay, I was trained in my day at each of the seminaries that I attended,

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ATS accredited and ATS non -accredited, and more so at the ATS non -accredited than the ATS accredited, ironically, that you really have to be careful and bend over backwards to be fair in light of your personal prejudices, because if you don't, you can end up skewing the facts, skewing the research in a way that does not honor the truth.

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And we see a lot of that in scholarship today, sadly.

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Now, what that means then is that when someone takes their computer program and they bring up that first graphic, you see that 1

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Corinthians 3 .15 is listed under meaning number two, be punished. It's not listed under meaning one to experience the loss of something with the implication of undergoing hardship or suffering.

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Now, please note something. The editors and authors of Bauer, Dunker, Arndt, and Gingrich are putting the primary meaning first.

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So the primary meaning of zemiatla was to experience the loss of something. The concept of punishment would then be secondary and would require a contextual reason for you to read it in that way, generally.

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Generally, you start with the main reading, and then you move down from there. That's not how

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Loanita is doing it, because Loanita is based on semantic domains, and so they list the same words in multiple places as they fit into a particular semantic discussion.

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But the point is that people look at this, and they look at the second meaning, be punished, and there's 1

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Corinthians 3 .15. Therefore, the standard Greek lexicon tells me this means be punished.

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What it's actually telling you is that the author of this particular entry would translate it that way.

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Not even the rest of the authors who may not have worked on that. It is telling you that this particular author understands it in that particular way.

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And if you only look at a few sources, that can give you a very skewed idea.

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Loanita give you more of this because it's based upon semantic domains, and even though they list, if anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer punishment.

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They also say, but it's also possible to understand Zemi -Ammai in 1 Corinthians 3 .15 as meaning simply to suffer loss, and see the semantic domain for that.

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So when you look at these resources, you have to realize you are looking at material that you have to learn.

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It is a process of learning. You have to learn how to differentiate between the actual information that is given, the scholarly factual information, and then the interpretation of that information.

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This is especially the case when using Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. This is a work of primarily

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German scholarship from the 1930s. Tremendous amount of liberal bias to be found in it.

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You can frequently find really important facts in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the

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New Testament, but you also have to be prepared to wade through a lot of the liberal zaniness in the process, and sometimes it's difficult for people to see which is which.

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So notice the discussion found about 1 Corinthians 3 .14 .15. According to 1

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Corinthians 3 .14, the Apostle received a reward. Very, very important term, misthos, if his work survives the fire on the day of testing.

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There is a precise antithesis in verse 15. And by the way, this is exactly correct.

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Notice that in 1 Corinthians 3 .14, I tenas ta ergan menai, ha epoikada emesen, read it right there, misthon lamesetai.

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So the first one is, if the work which a certain one has built, and it's on the foundation, remains, it abides, in other words, it survives the fire, misthon lamesetai.

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He will receive a misthos, a reward. Then the writer knows there is a precise antithesis in verse 14.

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Notice how, and you can see it, even if you can't read Greek, I tenas ta ergan, there's the same phrase, if a certain one's work, and then, instead of which he has built, and then remains, you have just the standard term, to be destroyed.

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Kadakaesetai. Then it says, zemiothesetai, there's the zemiaho term that we're looking at.

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Then we go on. The natural opposite of to receive a reward would seem to be to suffer punishment, but it is doubtful from the context whether the word should be taken in its juridical sense.

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The thought of a dikayasune work, worked out in punishment, is not in keeping with the passage, in spite of he hemera, the day.

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Nor can we link the phrase directly with the autos deisothesetai, which follows.

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Hence, we probably give the sense, more correctly, if we render, zemiothenai, by to suffer loss, filling it out from the preceding ton, misthon, construed as an accusative of relation.

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So here you have, again, and at least in Kittles, you can always look and see who the interpreter is. You have the interpreter here, substantiating the standard translation of to suffer loss, because of the fact that you have reward within the same context.

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And so whenever you read these things, you have to be able to pick out, okay, here's an important fact, it's only used here.

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Or here's an important fact, here are the other places Paul uses it. Or that kind of factual information, which even liberal sources are very good at providing.

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But then you have to recognize the difference between the facts that you can obtain and the application and interpretation of those facts, which often is problematic.

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So when we look at the text in 1 Corinthians 3, we go back to verse 14, and we do notice, if anyone's work is burned up,

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I'm sorry, verse 14, if any man's work which he has built on it remains, he'll receive reward.

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If a man's work is burned up. So we have one group being tested. One group being tested.

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And as we saw in the debate with Tim Staples, the idea that we have here some kind of purgation or something doesn't make any sense in the fact that those who receive the reward are being tested just as those who suffer loss.

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This all has to do with motivations. This all has to do with the works that the

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Christian leaders have done in building upon the foundation in the building of the church.

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And so you have these two parallels. And in the one, the work that a man has built upon the foundation, which is

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Jesus Christ, it remains. It survives the testing. He receives a misthon. But if a person's work is built up, it is made of wood, hay, and straw, then he zamiothesitai.

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And here I say to you in light of two things. A, in light of misthos in verse 14.

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Three things. Misthos in verse 14. The destruction of his works in verse 15.

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And standard Pauline usage. See, syngenous goes back to Proverbs. But there's no connection here between proverbial uses of zamioth and Paul's use of zamioth, where in every other place where he uses zamioth, he does not use it of punishment.

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In light of those three things, then you have to recognize the impossibility of this understanding that, well, what we have here is we have the suffering of purgatory and we have a clear assertion of purgatorial assertions and stuff like that.

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It just does not make any sense whatsoever. Notice, for example, in 2

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Corinthians 7 .9, the Apostle Paul says, I now rejoice not only that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance, for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.

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How would you translate that? So that you might not be punished in anything through us?

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Or in Philippians 3 .8, more than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing

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Christ Jesus my Lord. Is that supposed to mean I count all things punishment? Well, of course not.

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So, if you're going to insist upon a punishment translation for Zamiyahu in 1

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Corinthians 3 .15, you're going to have to say this is the one time of the three times that Paul used it where he used that particular meaning, that particular understanding, which is why the vast majority of translations simply don't go there.

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Now, this is all information that you could come up with, Accordance could show it to you,

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BibleWorks could show it to you, Logos could show it to you, but even once that information is sitting there on the screen, then you need to exercise discernment in the utilization of the material, the reading of the material, sort of demythologize scholarship is a term

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I've used many times. Just because it's printed on the page, you have to recognize that even the greatest scholars at times fail to filter out their own prejudices, their own traditions, and that can end up causing a problem.

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So, that's why I wanted to put that information up there on the screen, on the website, and then cover it here on the dividing line.

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We try to do some nuts and bolts type things once in a while to help you to grow in the grace and knowledge of the

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Lord Jesus Christ, but grow as a workman using the word of God. And if you're interested in apologetics, and I don't know anybody who listens to this program regularly who isn't, utilization of this material is extremely important, and this material is very frequently abused and misused by those that we're seeking to engage in apologetic encounter.

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And so it's important that we be consistent in our utilization of it and consistent in our understanding of what it's actually talking about.

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So, I think it's important to cover that kind of stuff. Hopefully, that was of some assistance to you as well.

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877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. 877 -753 -3341.

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If you want to discuss that, I doubt that's, you know, if I was going to try to fill up the rest of the program with, let's discuss lexical sources and zamiat.

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Oh, that's not going to happen. I realize that. But you may have some questions about relevant issues along those lines.

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Who knows? 877 -753 -3341. And do we have

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Skype? Okay. And Skype is available at dividing .line. Dividing .line

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on Skype is the Skype address. And let's go to our first caller. And let's talk with Sean.

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Hi, Sean. How are you? Hey, Dr. O 'Reilly. How are you doing? Doing good. I just want to, first of all, jump in, throw my hat in the ring, and just commend you for your handling of the reconcounter thing.

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I know you've taken a lot of heat for this, but, you know, you're doing the right thing. And I know that you've got a lot of support out there, but I was reading some of the other blogs last night, particularly the

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Arminian Today blog that you jumped on for a minute there. Yeah. And I couldn't believe the defense of this.

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And I want to put this into perspective, and I hope that people, you know, Norman Geisler, I doubt he's listening, but maybe he might or the guys at Liberty or that blogger from that site will hear this, because this is a really important issue.

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And I want to put it in perspective. I'm a police officer here in Las Vegas, and I know about making ethical decisions because I do them on a daily basis.

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Right. And sometimes they're on a minute -to -minute basis. And some of them are very, very simple.

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You know, for instance, say I pull somebody over, I pull them out of the car, and they look like a person maybe who's doing drugs.

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And so maybe they don't speak English. Maybe it's a Mexican guy, so he doesn't speak English. And I want to pat him down for weapons.

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And while doing that, I decide to go in his pocket, and I find a little bag of dope in there.

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Now, legally, I didn't ask this guy for permission to search him. So I've got to decide for myself, okay, now, since he doesn't speak

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English, I can probably arrest him for this dope. He'll go to jail.

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I can probably put in my report that I asked the guy for permission to go in his pocket, and chances are

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I'm never going to get found out for doing that. But I've got to make the decision, is that correct to do that?

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Well, most of the time it's easy. I just go, no, I'm not going to do that. It's not worth my career. It's not worth risking my ethics.

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I'll just write a report saying I found this methamphetamine in the guy's pocket, book it into evidence for destruction, let the guy go, or whatever.

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That's just the way things go. It was my boneheaded mistake doing that. Next, say we're at trouble a bit.

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Now I'm with the same guy, and I decide to arrest him for this thing, and he wants to struggle with me.

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Now, during this struggle, during the heat of the moment, I get angry or whatever, and I hurt this guy.

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And now I need to decide, okay, first of all, my arrest was kind of iffy, and now

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I've hurt this person, and now I need to find out, okay, do I protect myself by making up a lie that this guy was being more combative than he really was to defend myself from getting in trouble for hurting this person using more force than was necessary, or do

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I become honest and say, yeah, you know what, when I did this, it was too much force.

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The guy got a black eye, the guy got a bloody lip. If I don't, then

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I'm risking bearing false witness against this person and basically perjuring myself. And so if I do this, right,

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I'm risking my Christian witness, I'm risking my job, and there's times when

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I've been faced with, on many occasions, using deadly force against somebody. And I've got to decide, am

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I going to kill this person? Am I really in danger? Is society in danger? And thank

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God, up until now, I've never had to kill anybody. But I tell you right now, I could have on numerous occasions, and I could have gotten away with it.

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I could have justified, at least in court, killing somebody because I could say and get away with it and maybe even be true saying

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I felt I was in danger, so I pulled the trigger and killed this person. Now, those are decisions that evolve at a rapidly evolving situation.

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Those are things, a lot of times, that are out of my control. And you have to make decisions on a split -second basis and then deal with the consequences spiritually later on, you know?

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Yeah. And here's the thing. Bergen Kanner, he made the conscious decision at one time about whether or not the risk versus the benefit of creating this alternate persona.

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If he was going to become Ergen Memet Kanner, the former radical Muslim jihadi, instead of just Butch Kanner, the lowly, formal, nominal

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Muslim, turned evangelical Christian. He made that decision at one time. At one time, he made that decision.

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And he willingly chose to lie on that first occasion about who he was.

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And he got away with it. Right. And then he made the conscious decision to lie repeatedly. And those were carefully constructed, well -planned lies.

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And they were intended not just to deceive Christians and not just Muslims, but everyone who came into contact with him in his spoken and written work.

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You know, this guy, Bergen Kanner, didn't fall into sin in a critical moment in his life, born out of a situation that he really couldn't control.

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He chose, on numerous occasions, to purposely embellish who he was and lie.

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And to the whole world, basically. We live in a global society now. His works are probably been translated into different languages.

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This guy has lied to the world. Well, and I would point out, and this is something that police officers, when they interview suspects, catch on to very, very quickly.

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And to me, this has been the greatest indication of the purposefulness on the part of Bergen Kanner, of this activity, is that we can document that at the very same time period where he is standing in front of audiences talking about being born in Turkey and living in Turkey and coming here in 1979 from Turkey and all the rest of that stuff.

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He's telling AP reporters and Turkish reporters that he came here in 1969, grew up in Ohio.

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Now, the fact that you tell one audience that you know could check you out, one story, and then you tell another audience that you don't expect to check you out, that you have evidently determined is gullible, and you can pull the wool over their eyes, a completely different story.

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That, to me, is the clearest evidence of the purposeful intent to deceive.

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I don't know how else you could—what would be greater evidence than that? I can't think of anything. And what really gets me, too, is this guy stood in front of our

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Marines and soldiers, and he gave them a testimony as a Christian, former

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Muslim, and some of them may have chosen to accept Christ in his terms at those meetings.

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These young men went off to war, and many of them, being new baby

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Christians— and I'm telling you right now, that is the most caustic environment in the world, outside of law enforcement, probably even more so.

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These men had to make the decision as well or two, where does killing in combat turn the corner into murder?

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Because those things happen in war. I mean, I've talked to many soldiers returning from the battlefield.

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I mean, those things happen in war. And these guys, now they're

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Christians, converted Christians from this man, Erkin Tanner, and they find out that this man is a liar.

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He lied to them about who he was, about his past, and they question, what else did he lie about?

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Is the gospel true? Am I saved? I know for a fact that I murdered that guy.

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He wasn't a threat to me, I murdered that man. Where am I going when I die? Well, there's no question that this is one of the reasons why we have to have the highest level of integrity when handling the

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Scriptures, is because of the eternal truths that we are promoting.

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That is what has bothered me from the very start, when Erkin Tanner would consistently connect the mythological portions, the unsubstantiatable portions of his story, with gospel elements.

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For example, we've focused a lot of attention upon his claims to have debated Shabir Ali, but a lot of people have missed the context of that.

35:00

If you listen to that clip, and you can only catch a portion of it, but if you listen to that clip, what he's saying is, in all of my debates with Shabir Ali, with Abdul Saleeb, with Nader Ahmed, they have said, and what it is they've said, what does it matter that Jesus died?

35:16

He's talking about the atonement, he's talking about substitutionary atonement, he's talking about the necessity of the death of Christ.

35:22

And so right there, where he's saying something true, he is couching it within the context of mythology and falsehood.

35:30

That, to me, is the greatest tragedy here, is that the

35:36

Muslims who have heard these things and detected these errors hear a man not only connecting these things directly to the key elements of where Islam and Christianity differ from one another, but then, at the end, you hear all the

35:52

Christians amening him, demonstrating that they have been completely taken in by him and they're not practicing any discernment.

36:00

Now, if I had been sitting in the audience and I believed what he was saying, I might have amened him too.

36:07

And that's why this raises the whole issue of how people enter into ministry.

36:14

I come from a tradition that is very, very different than the vast majority of Baptist churches, in that we believe that you are called into ministry by the church, not by your gut feelings.

36:28

That is, it's the elders of the church to whom you're accountable. I mean,

36:33

Reformed Baptists will have a person come to the elders about going to the ministry, and the elders will look at that person, and upon due diligence of examining their lives and examining their capacities and their gifting and so on and so forth, will look at that person and say,

36:48

We do not believe. We see no evidence that God's calling you into ministry. Now, especially in Southern Baptist circles, you can't say that.

36:56

As long as somebody gets a burning in their bosom, well, they are supposed to be in the pastorate. That is an unbiblical perspective.

37:05

And a lot of, you know, Tom Chantry has done a good job in drawing out a number of the ramifications from the

37:15

Ergen -Kanner situation. I hope folks have read his materials, because this is another example of it.

37:21

We have here a man who is an entertainer. He's an entertainer. Watch the man. Watch the videos.

37:27

Listen. Even in the alleged sermons he gives, if he ever goes beyond three and a half minutes in the text,

37:34

I've not heard it. The rest is stories and making people laugh and getting people excited.

37:40

He's an entertainer. And in many places, that is considered to actually be what you're supposed to be as a minister.

37:48

And the ramifications are huge. They really are. What happens when CNN picks up on him calling himself a sand monkey and a sand n -word, and they reveal that this guy's a liar?

38:01

Can you say hate speech? Can you say Christian hate speech? I don't know why it hasn't happened yet to me, sir.

38:07

They're so damaging to the church. I cannot believe that the SBC has not come out more harshly on this whole thing.

38:16

Well, but remember, the SBC can't. This is supposed to be handled within his local church.

38:25

But the problem is, his local church is so tied together with the university, and hence so tied together with the $300 million per year that it takes to run that place, and to pay the $400 ,000 to the football coach and everything else, that you just got to understand, in those contexts, you cannot have the right priorities anymore.

38:55

The purity of the gospel in the pulpit becomes trumped by who can triple enrollment in my seminary, or who can keep young people coming to the

39:05

Wednesday night service, and who can keep this juggernaut moving. That's what becomes the primary motivation.

39:15

Now, that does not explain Norman Geisler's involvement. That's to be explained via Veritas Seminary, and the fact that there are two

39:24

Veritas Seminary major conferences happening this month and next month, and Ergen Kanner is speaking at both of them.

39:31

So there are other reasons involved. But especially the Liberty -Thomas Road thing, I just think that that's the only explanation we've come up with as to why they've turned a completely blind eye to the mountain of, as we've demonstrated, easily defensible documentation.

39:48

It's right there. You see it. A lot of people see it. But there are none so blind as those who willfully decide to stay in that state.

39:57

So, Sean, I appreciate your phone call. I'm glad to know that when

40:03

I do get up to Vegas, that the guy tailing me might be a good guy. That might be a good thing.

40:12

Well, I just want to thank you for your work. I mean, I've called a couple times, and you've always been very gracious. And your writings on Mormonism and just on apologetics, especially on Reformed theology, have really impacted my life, and I want to thank you for your work.

40:28

Well, thank you very much, Floyd. I know it's very, very encouraging. Thank you, sir. God bless. Have a good day. Thank you. Bye -bye. Yeah, did you catch that last part?

40:35

Have a good day. That sounds just like a cop would say, right, as he's walking away, right after he's given you his ticket. Have a good day.

40:44

Let me just mention, I did post an article yesterday that had,

40:51

I don't know how many, four or five, six, I've forgotten how many, four or five or six emails that had been sent to me.

41:01

One of them had a little bit of a rebuke to it, but that was good. It was a good encouraging rebuke.

41:08

Because I'll be honest, I'm sick and tired of this whole thing. I would much rather be focused on what

41:15

I've got coming up and writing projects and things like that. But I know it's necessary.

41:25

I have to be consistent with what I have preached and taught for all these years.

41:32

And no matter how nasty it gets, you just have to stay focused on the truth.

41:38

And it has gotten nasty. There are people who call themselves Christians out there right now that are absolutely frightening.

41:49

There's at least one man I would consider to be absolutely violent, not just vile, and filled with bile, but violent.

42:00

And if I ever spoke down that neck of the woods, I'd be keeping an eye out for some of these people because they are just so dedicated to their traditions.

42:10

And they can be incredibly violent individuals. It's a scary thing.

42:16

But my hope, people say, what do you want out of this? Well, I just want out of this, first of all.

42:23

But what do you want out of this? I want the truth to be vindicated and honored.

42:32

And that means Ergon Kanner needs to come clean. He needs to stop hiding behind the political forces of Liberty University and Norman Geisler.

42:45

People like Norman Geisler need to stop aiding and abetting him in avoiding repentance and confession because that's what

42:52

Norman Geisler has done. The biggest problem with Norman Geisler is not that he just repeated

42:57

Kanner's own stuff. I mean, you could just simply say that Norm's just being a good old boy, and he believes whatever

43:04

Ergon tells him. And so I think what we saw in what was posted on Norman Geisler's website was the outlines of what

43:13

Kanner was distributing to people in his office back in April. I think that's exactly what it was.

43:21

And so he sent that to Norm, and Norm's being a good old boy. And Norm does not like Calvinists.

43:27

And so since I have been here, people think about it. People keep saying, I'm doing this because I'm a

43:33

Calvinist. Actually, the reason people are defending Ergon Kanner is because I'm a Calvinist. This is a clear example of anti -Calvinist derangement syndrome, where Norman Geisler has been angry for a decade now because there's a book out there called

43:51

The Potter's Freedom. And I've told the story before, but I think it's important I tell it again.

43:58

And then we'll get to John in Chicago. It wasn't long after The Potter's Freedom came out, and I think this has now become even more important than it was.

44:08

And you can verify this by contacting Marty Minto, who was an on -air personality at KPXQ in Phoenix at this time.

44:16

Last I knew, he was in Pittsburgh somewhere, but he got fired for the Pope stuff when the Pope died. Remember that. So I don't know where he is now.

44:22

But I'm sure you can find him on Google someplace. I don't think Algo knows where he is, but Google probably would.

44:30

I was teaching, once again to the chagrin of Peter Lumpkins and Rogers and Guthrie and others.

44:37

I was teaching a summer intensive course in Mill Valley, California, in the summer of, as I recall, this was 2001.

44:47

It may have been 2000, but it was 2000 or 2001. I'd have to go back and look. And I was staying in the dormitories up there on the campus itself.

44:59

I remember I was having horrible problems getting the Internet. And I received a phone call from Dr.

45:11

Pierce out there that I needed to call Marty Minto immediately.

45:17

That Marty Minto had just gotten off the phone with Norman Geisler. And so this was, as I recall, it was a

45:24

Saturday afternoon. It may have been a Friday, but I think it was a Saturday afternoon. And so I called,

45:33

Rich gave me the number, and I called Marty Minto. And yes,

45:39

I was just being nice to Rich. It's not Dr. Pierce. Oh, good grief. People in the channel.

45:46

And he is the doctor of all things dividing line.

45:51

How's that? So I called

45:58

Marty Minto and he said, man, I feel like I need to tell you about what just happened.

46:03

I said, what happened? He says, well, I just got off the phone with Norman Geisler. OK, this is just this is within,

46:11

I don't know, two, three months of the Potter's Freedom coming out. So whenever that was,

46:16

I could look it up, but I'm just telling the story off the top my head here. And he said what had happened.

46:25

Well, I knew what had happened right before I had gone up there. I had heard that Marty Minto was going to have

46:31

Norman Geisler on his program to talk about Chosen But Free. Now, remember, Chosen But Free was published by Bethany House Publishers.

46:38

Guess who had many books out at that time and still has a number of books out with Bethany House Publishers? Yours truly.

46:44

So I knew exactly who in the publicity department was setting this up.

46:49

I knew exactly, you know, the letters that were exchanged and the whole nine yards where you signed up to do the thing.

46:56

And you're doing this for free because you're promoting your own book. The whole purpose you're going on these programs to promote your book.

47:03

And so at the time, the lady at Bethany House was Jeannie Mickelson. And so Jeannie would call me up and say,

47:10

I've got an interview for you on such and such a station, such and such time. We always had to struggle with the time issues because I live in Phoenix.

47:17

And we have to go, OK, is that before or after the time change? Because I missed a couple because we just messed up and there'd be an hour difference.

47:24

And so, you know, she'd send out a confirmation thing and then she'd remind you before it happened and blah, blah, blah.

47:32

So I tuned in that day. I was not going to call the program. I'm not going to try to argue with Norman Geisler as a call in guy.

47:40

I'd be happy to debate him in a one on one situation. But I know better when you call into a radio program, somebody else has the finger on the button.

47:48

OK, so you only get to make a comment and then that's it. Well, so I tuned it in and I remember

47:56

I was sitting at my desk, the same desk that I do the dividing line at back in those days. And I can tell

48:04

Marty is stretching. Marty is buying time. When you've got Norman Geisler on the line, you're not going to be doing what he was doing and keeping him on hold and getting to him later.

48:14

You're going to go to Norman Geisler. And so I could tell that Geisler wasn't there.

48:22

And so at that time, Marty Mendoza, if I recall correctly, used AIM, you know, AOL Instant Messenger.

48:28

And so I typed a message to him. I said, what's up? And he said, can't can't find

48:34

Geisler. OK, so a few minutes go by and he says, well, folks, I'm sorry. I know we announced the

48:39

Norman Geisler could be on, but he's not answering the phone. So we're going to go on with something else. I thought that was weird, but it happens.

48:46

I mean, I missed interviews. You know, sometimes you get your dates mixed up. You get sick. I don't know. I have a flat tire.

48:52

I can't get home in time. There's there's reasons I didn't put much stock in it. Well, what happened is

48:57

I go off to teach in Mill Valley and finally Marty gets around. He calls Bethany houses.

49:04

Look, folks, we had a we had a date here. What happened to Geisler? He says about five minutes later, the phones ring, phone rings and it's

49:11

Norman Geisler. And so Marty says, well, hello,

49:18

Dr. Geisler. And Dr. Geisler's first words are not hello. I think that it's why do you want me on your program now?

49:26

That immediately I immediately started smiling because I'm a Bethany House author, too. And you don't call up some program that's going to have you on to promote your book and go, why do you want me on your program?

49:37

Well, does to talk about your book with what else? But why do you want me?

49:43

Well, to talk about your book, Chosen Be Free. You know, James White. Well, yes,

49:48

I've had James on my program a number of times. He said, James, for 20 minutes, I couldn't get a word in edgewise.

49:55

He went off after you. You're a snot nosed apologist. You're out of control.

50:02

He your your friends realize that you've lost it and you're imbalanced and just he just went after you.

50:10

I said, really? Yeah. And he filled me in on some of the stuff that he was saying about me.

50:16

And, you know, this person says that about him and this person says that about him. And one of the things that I'll never, ever forget is that he said, you're you're a kid and you've stuck your nose in something that's none of your business.

50:35

This is between he that is Norman Geisler and R .C. Sproul. And I'm like, what?

50:45

It crossed my mind that Chosen But Free was specifically titled to play off of Chosen by God.

50:53

But being the kid that I was, the naive kid that I was,

51:00

I suppose, I just didn't think that anyone would do something like that.

51:06

And I just had not yet encountered the mindset of people to where they would actually seriously think that the issues of the gospel itself could be identified as being between you and somebody else.

51:29

I just didn't think people could really think that way, but I was wrong.

51:36

He thinks, and in fact, he even made the statement, he even said to Marty Minto, R .C.

51:42

Sproul was hiding behind James White. At this point in time, I'd never even met

51:47

R .C. Sproul. Well, no, I'll take that back. I had met him as a back.

51:53

I was at 95 at the Christian Booksellers Association. But I was just, you know, with a couple of the guys and we asked him a question in the hallway about about the evangelicals and together, evangelicals and Catholics together stuff, the

52:08

ECT stuff. So I had met him, but he wouldn't I didn't think he would even know where I was at that point. Anyhow, so he goes on and on and on.

52:17

And then Marty can tell that Geisler is wrapping up.

52:24

And so he finally gets a word in edgewise and he says, Dr. Geisler, what about being on the program?

52:32

You're supposed to be. OK, you want me on your program? Here's my conditions. Here are my conditions.

52:41

You will have James White on your program first. And you'll record the interview.

52:48

I will not be on any closer than two weeks. From when James White is on, you will send me the tape.

52:58

Of the interview that you have with James White. When I come on, you will never say the name

53:06

James White. You will never mention the book,

53:12

The Potter's Freedom. You will use a delay system so that no caller can mention the name of James White or the book,

53:21

The Potter's Freedom. And if in at any point those names are mentioned,

53:27

I will hang up and the interview will be ended. If you will accept my conditions, I will be on your program.

53:39

That's why I've always just sort of gone, greatest apologist ever?

53:45

Really? I mean, Chosen but Free was just a bad book.

53:51

It was badly written. It was badly researched. It was badly argued. It was just a bad book.

54:00

And yet you have to engage in that kind of I'm going to protect myself ism to even go on a radio program?

54:09

Wow, it never even crossed my mind. But that's what happened.

54:15

In case you're wondering, by the way, Marty never had him on. He's like, no, thanks.

54:23

Thank you very much. Have a nice day. He did have me on. I think within a week or so after I got back from from teaching a golden guy, he had me on.

54:32

But because he was blown away, he he could not. He could not believe that someone would have that kind of of conditions to discuss a book that he'd written that had.

54:48

Had resulted in someone else writing a book, reviewing it. Don't mention it or I hang up. Well, there you go.

54:55

So why is that important? Well, I think it's important. Oh, my goodness. I'm sorry. I didn't realize it took me so time so much time.

55:01

I think it's important because it we're going to go a little bit longer. OK. All right. Let's go ahead and get to John here. But I mentioned that because I think it illustrates something about the reasons people going.

55:14

Why on earth would Norman Geisler fall on his sword for something where there's such an obvious reality here?

55:22

I think you're listening to the reason it's because Norman Geisler has not been happy about the book.

55:29

The Potter's Freedom. Not only the Potter's Freedom itself. But the primary thing, folks, is read the endorsements.

55:36

It was the endorsements on the Potter's Freedom that I think is the primary reason that Norman has done what he's done.

55:44

Let's talk with John up in Chicago. Hi, John. Hey, Dr. White. I wanted to thank you for your work on the

55:51

Kanner situation here. And I also was hoping to be able to get some of your opinions or thoughts on what you think

55:59

Liberty students, whether current or alumni, and perhaps also faculty, should be doing in response to how

56:08

Liberty has handled the allegations against Kanner and also the fact that he has not himself responded.

56:19

What would you, maybe if you were a faculty member there or if you were a student, what would you have done?

56:28

Well, I can't answer that last question. I have no idea what I would do in a situation like this.

56:37

I've had many current faculty members and students contact me and ask very similar questions.

56:45

There are people with integrity there. There are students with integrity. There are staff members with integrity, and their hearts are breaking over what they're seeing and what they're experiencing.

56:56

There's no question about that. I think that's up to the individual as to whether they can continue with the program of study they have, whether they feel that getting a degree from there in their field is even going to be worth the continued effort to do so at this point, especially if it's in apologetics.

57:14

I think there's been some real issues raised in regards to the integrity of the institution at that point.

57:21

But I think former students, alumni, and I'm not sure if you're an alumni or not, but I think alumni would probably be in the best situation to be contacting the administration and saying this has not been handled correctly.

57:37

We have not heard answers to these questions. I think if alumni as a group began calling for responsibility on the part of the administration, you might actually see something happen because they're very concerned about the alumni.

57:52

The alumni are a very important source of funding. The alumni are a very, very important source of the promotion of the university.

58:01

And I think if the alumni were saying, look, this is what Liberty used to stand for, and right now we see a complete change in that area.

58:13

I think those would be the people who, in contacting people they used to know there, in contacting the leadership of the university, they might be able to have an appreciable impact on folks.

58:26

But I think other ways that positive things can happen,

58:32

Ergen Kanner is scheduled to speak at two apologetics conferences this summer.

58:39

I think people involved in apologetics should be respectful in anything they say to anyone involved with those conferences.

58:48

First and foremost, I want to emphasize this. And I'm not saying this just specifically for you, John, because I don't know you, but I want to make sure everyone hears me saying this.

58:56

Anyone who walks up to Ergen Kanner in any place and is disrespectful, threatening, or unkind, do not say that I told you to do that because that's the exact opposite of how this should be handled.

59:11

But at the same time, I think that people who are thinking about attending those conferences should contact the leadership and ask them why they're not taking a stand on these matters.

59:26

Because, look, let's face it. The information we have about what Ergen Kanner has done in myth -making is significantly fuller and significantly stronger than any information we have about Joseph Smith's myth -making.

59:39

So how on earth can we, with any type of integrity, turn a blind eye to the one while condemning the other?

59:47

So I think there should be contact made, saying, you know, I was thinking about attending, but you know what?

59:52

I don't think that I can unless you come to answer these issues and deal with these questions.

01:00:00

I think Ergen Kanner's role as a quote -unquote apologist needs to be challenged in light of the information, or we are going to just be demonstrating that we don't have any consistency and integrity on our own part.

01:00:14

And so those are some of the things I think could be done, but they need to be done with the greatest amount of respect and always with an eye to our own hearts and our own pride and things like that.

01:00:28

We do not want to act like some of the people on the other side who have just been vicious in the way they've approached this.

01:00:36

We need to remember we're doing this solely for the integrity of the gospel and for no other reason. And so if you're an alumni, then

01:00:43

I would contact the leadership, and in a very respectful way, ask them to reconsider the way they've handled this and to answer the questions.

01:00:53

That's what needs to be done. Well, thank you. I appreciate it, John. Thank you very much. All right.

01:00:58

God bless. Bye -bye. Oh, wow. We're going to have to – we're going over time here, and these others really aren't on the same topics.

01:01:06

Let's try to get them really, really quick. I hope you don't mind if these are short responses, but let's talk with Denny in New York.

01:01:13

Hi, Denny. Hi. Good afternoon, Dr. White. Thank you for having me on, for taking my call. I have a very quick question.

01:01:19

I'm someone who's struggling with the whole issue of sola scriptura versus church authority, and I do have

01:01:26

Catholic leanings as a result, but I'm very much a novice on the issue. But I saw a clip on YouTube of one of your debates, and you made a statement in which you said – that sola scriptura doesn't apply to the church when it's in a state of inscripturation.

01:01:42

And I was wondering if you could explain maybe what that means and how the church – like, what is the standard of authority during that period, and how do they make the transition from then to sola scriptura?

01:01:53

Well, sola scriptura states that the inspired scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith of the church, that there is no other infallible rule of faith to which the church is to be given.

01:02:02

But obviously, there has to be a recognition that there is a period of time when the scriptura itself was being given.

01:02:09

Now, that was a brief period of time in regards to the New Testament. It was a lengthier period of time in regards to the

01:02:15

Old. But it really is just simply a recognition that that which is theanustas is divine in character, and that which is not theanustas has to be secondary to anything which is theanustas.

01:02:29

Now, if Rome wants to say that their traditions are theanustas, then they can attempt to defend that.

01:02:37

But most of the Roman Catholic apologists will not go so far as to say that the tradition that is not specifically found in the written scriptures is itself theanustas.

01:02:48

So on an epistemological level, they are forced to recognize the fundamental difference that exists between that which is literally

01:02:56

God speaking and that which is not. And so when I, I don't know if you've seen any of the debates that I've done,

01:03:03

I think the debate that I did with Mitchell Pacwa on this subject was probably the clearest one. I asked

01:03:08

Father Pacwa, I asked him, has Rome defined a single word that Jesus or any of his disciples ever said that is not found in scripture?

01:03:19

Has Rome defined dogmatically a single word that comes from Jesus or the disciples in her tradition?

01:03:28

And he honestly said, well, no, of course not. So you only have, when you ask the honest question, what do we know the apostles taught?

01:03:38

Then on divine level, you only have the scriptures. Now, during the days of, you know, the day that Paul's writing the epistle to the

01:03:48

Romans, if he were to explain what he was writing to someone in the room, would that be an authoritative apostolic pronouncement?

01:04:00

Yes, it would be. But since it's not preserved by the Holy Spirit of God and provided to the church, which is the whole reason scripture is given in the first place, then once that apostle is no longer alive, then what he wrote in that letter is the only standard that the

01:04:20

Spirit preserves. And clearly, I would challenge you, I don't know if you've picked up the three volume set,

01:04:27

Holy Scripture, the Pillar and Foundation of Our Faith by Webster and King. I would strongly encourage you to do so.

01:04:33

But when we look at the dogmas that have been defined specifically on the basis of tradition, they are the very dogmas that are the least biblical in their orientation.

01:04:45

And it's ironic that while Rome can give us absolute certainty on something like the bodily assumption of Mary, Rome can't give us absolute certainty on what entire tracts of scripture mean when they're talking about salvation.

01:05:00

It's a fascinating thing that Rome can't really tell you about God's eternal predestination, but they can tell you dogmatically and infallibly that Mary was bodily assumed to heaven.

01:05:14

I would hope that that would make you go, that is rather odd, that you can have absolute certainty on the arcane, but you can't have absolute certainty on that which takes up the most of biblical revelation and discussion.

01:05:28

That's what ends up happening when you deny sola scriptura and you end up joining authorities that are not

01:05:37

Theanostas with that which is Theanostas. Have you seen the

01:05:42

Pacwa debate? I haven't. I'm planning on getting some of your debates, though. Like I said, I'm very much a novice on this issue. I would suggest all five debates with Mitch Pacwa for a couple of reasons.

01:05:51

First of all, you can't question Mitch's credentials. He is very well known.

01:05:58

He speaks 12 languages. He's very well trained. Secondly, Mitch is a guy of honor.

01:06:03

He doesn't engage in cheap debating tricks, and so you'll discover them to be very personable debates.

01:06:10

I wish you could watch all of them. All of them have been videotaped, but Roman Catholics have kept the first two from being seen on video.

01:06:17

They will not release those videotapes, unfortunately. You can only listen to them. I wish you could watch them. I would like Scott Butler, the man who holds them hostage, to let them go, but he wants $5 ,000 to do that.

01:06:27

We don't have $5 ,000 to do that. But not only did we debate sola scriptura, but we also debated the papacy, justification, the priesthood.

01:06:38

And which one am I missing here, guys? The mass, justification, sola scriptura, the priesthood, and there's five of them.

01:06:49

What was the other one? Anyway, you can find them on the website. For some reason, it's missing. I'm missing it right now. I think you'd find them to be excellent debates, but they would also illustrate,

01:06:57

I think, what happens when we do the priesthood subject, for example. That illustrates what happens when you don't believe in sola scriptura.

01:07:06

And so I would highly recommend them, and especially the three -volume set by Webster and King, 1 ,100 pages, deep with early church fathers.

01:07:17

Take a look at them. I think that'll help you a lot, okay? Thank you very much for the recommendations. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Have a wonderful day. Bye -bye.

01:07:23

And just really, really quickly here, Andrew in Nebraska. Hi, Dr. White.

01:07:29

How are you doing? Good. How are you? Doing all right. Got a quick question for you. I was wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on the relationship between natural and special revelation, namely the scriptures.

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And in particular, if you could address the notion of should we be interpreting through the lens of natural revelation, should we be interpreting scripture through that lens?

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Okay. Well, you could give an entire lecture on that particular subject.

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I would personally direct you to some of the comments on that specific issue that are offered, for example, by Cornelius Van Til in his work where he really dives into that particular arena.

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For those that are not familiar with the terminology, general revelation is revelation God has made of his existence, his attributes that are found in the creation itself.

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Special revelation is inscripturated revelation, that which is theanoustos in scripture. And Romans 1 is the classical text that illustrates for us the fact that God has revealed his existence, his eternal power and divine nature through that which has been made.

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However, he has not revealed through natural revelation that which is the gospel itself.

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There are some people, the Gospel and the Stars folks, which I certainly do not agree with, who think you can find the

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Trinity and everything else in those areas. I don't think that is a biblical presentation at all. Instead, special revelation is what man has always been dependent upon.

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Even Adam, in his pre -fall state, was dependent upon the special revelation of God as to the knowledge of what was and what was not

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God's will for him in regards to participation in eating of the fruit. And so, Reformed theologians in particular have always emphasized the priority of special revelation.

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And natural revelation can speak of basic things in regards to God's nature, but it cannot provide a lens that is wide enough to actually interpret all of special revelation.

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It can provide a lens in regards to some basic issues, but I do not believe that natural revelation can become— well, let's put it this way.

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If you attempt to use natural revelation in this way, and many Roman Catholic theologians do, the lens ends up constricting special revelation because the lens is too small to actually take into account all of special revelation.

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So, what you're touching on there is a major area of discussion that, if you look at Hermann Bavink, Kuyper, and others, you'll get in some very in -depth discussions of those particular issues that we just don't have time, since we've gone over time, to get into them.

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But I would highly recommend their discussions for a more in -depth discussion of those particular things.

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But, Andrew, thank you very much for waiting. I know you waited quite some time, but thank you for your phone call today here on The Dividing Line.

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We've gone way over time, but hopefully you will understand that, as I gave that story in regards to what happened with Norman Geisler, that I think it is relevant to why we see the things that are happening now, and that will give you some insight into these events.

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Thanks for listening to The Dividing Line today. Lord willing, we will see you Thursday afternoon. The AC started working while I was on.

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That's a good thing to know. I guess it got frozen up. That's what we get for living in a desert, isn't it?

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We'll see you on Thursday. God bless. See you later. The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -4602, or write us at P .O.

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Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. You can also find us on the

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World Wide Web at AOMIN .org, that's A -O -M -I -N .org, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.