September 14, 2017 Show with Jonathan Master on “Doctrine Matters!” AND Ron Glass on “The Church Family Matters!”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this

14th day of September 2017.

I'm delighted to have as a returning guest today someone who never Disappoints me as a

guest.

He is truly a fountain of information.

I always love having him on the program and that's Jonathan master professor of theology and Dean

of the School of Divinity at Cairn University in Langhorne, Pennsylvania.

Editorial director for the Alliance of confessing evangelicals and host of the Alliance podcast

theology on the go.

He's also an author of a question of consensus The doctrine of assurance after the

Westminster Confession.

Today we are discussing with him during the first hour.

Doctrine matters in the second hour.

We're going to be joined by my dear friend pastor wrong glass of waiting at River Baptist Church of waiting River, Long Island, New

York.

Who is going to be discussing the church family matters?

So we have two things that really matter today and the first as I said is doctrine matters.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Dr. Jonathan master.

Thanks.

I'm glad to be here.

It's a pleasure to be back on the program.

If anybody would like to join us, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a are n ze n a gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA and if you plan to ask Dr. Jonathan master a question. I would

strongly advise you do it quickly because an hour goes by quickly.

He's only on for the first half of the show.

So you might want to send in your questions earlier than that than you normally might consider

doing that.

First of all, once again, since we have new listeners joining us all the time.

Tell us something about Cairn University.

Karen's been around for over a hundred years and we're just outside of Philadelphia in Langhorne, Pennsylvania and

one of the Unusual and and special things about the university is that every student here

takes at least 30 credit hours at least 10 classes of Bible and theology, so we offer a wide number of majors.

And and our school is all the highest kind of accreditation you'd want.

But but the students are focused as well on the study of scripture and the study of theology

and so that kind of infuses Everything we're.

We're not a huge University.

We have about 1 ,200 students between the undergraduate and the graduate school, but But

it's really a privilege to teach here and to see students go out into such a wide range of fields.

I have a very strong.

Prediction here that when I am God willing manning a book a booth I should say

a exhibitors booth for iron sharpens iron radio at the Alliance of confessing Evangelicals

Quaker town conference and reform theology.

I've got a very strong Belief that Cairn University will have their booth right near mine.

Just like they always do.

Yeah, we try to get around to get the word out and places like those Alliance events are usually great for meeting

people.

So yeah, I'll make sure they stop by and say hi.

All right, great.

And I know that speaking of the Alliance of confessing evangelicals as I just mentioned during my

introduction of.

You.

You host the Theology on the go program and I know you've Described this

before but we have new listeners all the time.

So why don't you tell our listeners about theology on the go?

Theology on the go is a podcast where we try to take about 15 minutes to look at one particular

theological issue.

And sometimes it's not an issue.

It's a it's a person a theologian or someone.

It's important in church history and and and I interview one expert on either that topic or that

Individual or that movement in church history and so we try to make it short so that you can listen to it on your commute listen to

it while you're walking your dog and.

The tagline that we have which I think really sums it up is a brief interview about an eternal truth.

That's what we're striving for.

Well, I know that.

The.

The Alliance of confessing evangelicals website is alliance net org Alliance

net org and then if you click on broadcasts, you just scroll down and

you will find Theology on the on the go.

You can also find theology on the go at place for truth org place for truth

org and that's For for not the number four place for truth Dot org.

Well, we are discussing today something that I think is an important issue

and It very often comes up actually on I am sharpens iron radio

broadcasts.

Regardless of what we're talking about especially, you know when we're regardless of whatever

specific Christian issue or biblical issue we are discussing the issue of the

importance of doctrine Inevitably comes up because of the fact

that you have a very large number of evangelicals, I don't know if it would be the

the the predominant percentage of Evangelicals but from what I've

experienced in my own personal life, I would get that opinion very easily that

doctrine in their opinion doesn't really matter or Perhaps I

should say that it matters a lot less.

Than.

Your joy and what they would call the love of Jesus and the love of others.

They somehow think that they can accomplish that without having Biblically accurate doctrine,

but why don't we.

I mean this may seem like a very basic.

Silly question, but but could you define for us doctrine, please?

Doctrine just means teaching and when we talk about it in in terms of Christian the Christian Church,

we're talking about the teaching of the church or the teaching of the Bible and sometimes that'll get

Subdivided so we'll talk about your doctrine of God or your doctrine of sin or your doctrine of humanity.

But but really doctrine just means the teaching about something the the content

that you hold to about a certain Subject and and then like I said broadly speaking when we

talk about it, and we don't qualify it with you know.

Yeah, a doctrine of God or something.

What you basically just mean is what it is that you believe about these these biblical categories and these

systematic categories.

So when somebody says Doctrine is not important or it's not it's not on the

higher levels of importance or Doctrine divides.

When they say these things they are actually professing doctrines, but they're professing bad ones.

Well, that's absolutely right and that's and that's one of the first points that need needs to be made.

I mean, I I meet people just like you were you were talking about earlier who say, you know, why do we need theology?

Why do we need doctrine?

But the truth is, you know, you you have a theology everyone has Operative teachings.

About these issues that it may be sloppy.

They may be incoherent.

They may be unbiblical.

You know, all those things may be true.

It may be bad doctrine and bad theology.

But but they have one nonetheless.

And and and and you're right in a sense denigrating doctrine or saying it doesn't matter is a

kind of Theological statement in a way and it just happens to be one that I think is directly contrary to

the scripture.

Reverend buzz Taylor has something to say.

Well, I was gonna say beyond and you just finally used the word denigrating doctrine because you know Chrissy was

saying about many evangelicals that feel that doctrine isn't important.

But I was gonna tell you they go to the other extreme and say that God can't use you if you've got doctrine.

And I remember.

Even before I ever went through the charismatic movement myself.

Many of them when they talk to me, it's like, you know, you just you just have too much doctrine, you know.

It's that's stifling the the freedom of the spirit in your life because you know.

You're too knowledgeable or something like that.

So they go so far as to it's almost become a dirty word.

Yeah.

That's a great point.

That's a great vibe.

I've seen that myself and a lot of times what you find is underneath that is actually a subtle

subtle attempt to to basically say.

You know, nothing should control what you do and say and nothing control what I do and say.

It's very dangerous.

Yeah, I think that where that issue comes from Those who look upon it as a dirty

word They hear the word doctrine and what their mind is immediately

transported to a cloistered library or study in a seminary

where you have a roundtable of Scholars that are pale

-skinned because they never leave that darkened Study and they

are Never seeing sunlight and they are they are

bantering and debating and arguing over minutiae like how many

angels can dance on the head of a pin and They think that that is when when somebody brings up the

importance of doctrine.

They think that we are talking about things that are secondary

tertiary even lower in importance Than just lifting up Jesus in song

and praising him and telling people Jesus loves you and died for you.

Which is something that as a Calvinist, I don't believe believe you should be saying indiscriminately to everybody you meet

anyway, but.

The.

That seems to be what if you really start to question people, which I have what do you mean by that?

The doctrine is Something that is only oppressive to God's people and we should really just

be lifting up Jesus and loving Jesus and loving people.

Don't you think that's primarily what?

People are thinking when when they hear that I.

Would imagine it is and and you know, there's a there are probably a couple of things behind

that.

Maybe.

Maybe you're right.

Maybe they have an image in their mind of someone who's who's consumed with.

A.

Minor Esoteric things that maybe even the Bible doesn't speak to at all.

And and and so they've got that kind of in their head, but but a lot of times I think it's it's.

It's also a symptom of a kind of intellectual laziness.

Where they because because they don't want to try to think through hard things.

They don't want to study their Bible with a careful with careful attention that therefore it's convenient

to say No one should and it's unimportant because then that kind of lets lets you off the hook, too.

So I think that's behind it and then like I said I think I think in some churches when when pastors say

those kinds of things or leaders of other Christian organizations say those kind of things I Also that

really raises red flags for me because then we're not just talking about potentially an intellectual laziness.

But also maybe a kind of power play where you know, I I'm not going to be

questioned or pushed on any particular things.

And the Reverend Buzz Taylor has something.

Yeah, and it's not just that.

Yeah, you got me.

Okay.

It's not just that that doctrine divides all that stuff or they have a

theory of what doctrine is as far as you know, the old the pin thing and all but.

When you're talking to somebody for example who believes they have instant spirituality.

Because they can babble and you start to tell them why you don't believe from the scriptures.

In the perpetuity of spiritual gifts, they that's doctrine.

That's actually coming against their views.

And of course they in their opinion that can't be right.

Yeah, I mean, that's a good point.

I mean if that's how you define Spirituality and you don't want anyone to kind of question you

about that or about the boat.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly today and that's a dangerous thing.

I mean we should as Even as his pastors and teachers we should want people to do with the

Bereans did with Paul and that is you know go and search the scriptures to see if these things are true and.

We should we should want that level of accountability.

So when people push away that level of accountability really it really makes me nervous.

Yeah yeah, and going back though to something that both buzz and I

mentioned the fact that you will often hear as a slogan from those who have no

desire to delve into the depths of theology and doctrine or Rise raise

it to a level of high importance.

They will say the doctrine divides.

Well, it doesn't only divide that's their intention by saying that but it does divide

and it's supposed to divide.

It shouldn't it divide if it's if it's supposed to be a declaration of

Truth, especially if it's salvific.

It most certainly should divide us from those Theologically that have a false gospel.

I mean Paul Certainly preached a gospel that divided the true Christians from the Judaizers for

instance.

Well, that's exactly right.

I mean at its basic level the gospel message itself is a doctrinal Pronouncement.

It's a pronouncement of teaching about about yourself about sin about God about the world about

Jesus.

About salvation any number of other things that we might put on under that.

So you're right.

It's the gospel itself is divisive.

Teaching about Christ is divisive.

Christ himself Was divisive when he taught.

You can just look at the reactions in John's gospel, and it's always mixed.

There are people who believe there are people who turn their backs or people who are kind of curious.

It's always divisive.

And then within the church.

You know, you're right necessarily one.

Teaching of truth is gonna it's going to rule out of the opposite.

But but I think what people tend to mean and they think that phrase when it gets used I find it

really troubling just like you do but They what people mean is they mean Doc

kind of small or or or or doctrines that that are are heavily

debated.

And maybe maybe even unknowable from the scriptures are used to create these great divisions.

Obviously, we don't want to do that.

There's a proportionality that we need to have in our study the Bible and in our theology.

But but on the face of it's unavoidable the doctrine divides.

Yes, and We we must avoid.

And and some of us perhaps even those of us who are reformed might have a tendency to do this

because Reformed Christians and Calvinists tend to be Guilty of

OCD at times when it comes to theology where we might be overly harsh over

areas in the Bible That are secondary or tertiary and might even be things

that can't be known with certainty from mere exegesis of the Bible.

And we wind up Straining out gnats and swallowing cowbells.

I mean there's a reason why those those slogans Became a part of the

inspired Word of God because there are people that are so caught up in not minutia because it

Fuels their arrogance and pride that they are a unique elite group of people that have knowledge

that those outside their group don't have and that it can be a Pride exalting kind of a thing.

I don't know we as reformed people. I think especially have to be very Leery of that

and be on guard against that don't you agree?

I.

Do I mean, I think it's a besetting sin of a lot of different Theological

persuasions, but all and also of people who come to a conclusion Through

through study or through teaching that they've received they tend to be that they tend to make that the main thing.

You know.

I but I would also just return to what Paul says in 1st Timothy 4 16 Where he says watch your life

and doctrine closely.

And I think some of the issues that you brought up some of them have to do maybe with an overemphasis or

Overzealous attitude but but some of them also have to do with the fact that there can be people and there sadly are

Christians who Who are inattentive to their own life and their own?

Christian witness and obedience to the Lord and yet very attentive to their own Doctrine.

And Paul, of course says watch your life and doctrine.

Right. Amen.

We have a questioner.

From.

San Jose, California.

Daniel who says could you ask dr. Master to explain the importance of doctrine in a church

context?

And how can members of a church encourage other members to study theology and doctrine?

I'm asking because I've heard of people saying that they do not want theology.

They just want Jesus.

Yeah, that's that's a great question.

You know, the church is essentially a Doctrinal Body, it's a body that is

is united around certain teaching when when Paul describes the church in first

Timothy He called it the household of God the church of the Living God a pillar and buttress

of the truth.

And then he goes on to say this is great.

Indeed We confess is the mystery of Godliness and then he talks about about Christ.

And so that's teaching that's doctrine and in a sense It's inescapable in a

true church unless you want to have a club of people who try to behave a certain way that but

that's not a church churches are and the Christian faith is and.

In in.

Extricably linked with with doctrine now.

I mean even there's there's also a little bit of a.

And an absurdity to the statement we don't want theology.

We want Jesus because We we only understand and know who Jesus

is.

Because of the teaching we've received about Jesus.

Hopefully hopefully through the Word of God and through faithful teachers and preachers of the Word of God.

But that it even are in a sense Understanding of him our knowledge of him

is based on his revelation to us.

And so, you know unless that person's saying I just want the feelings that are created when I

think about Jesus.

But then again, you know, that's not the Christian faith, right?

Very often when I am at a social gathering or something and there are people of different

Religious groups or different so -called branches of Christianity I have

I have responded to The comment when I perhaps someone has overheard me having

a theological discussion and they will say Why don't you guys just you know

get with the program and just lift up Jesus.

I mean, what are you getting down?

Bringing us all down with this deep theological area that just just divides

people just lift up Jesus and I have said which Jesus and As soon as they just

start to describe which Jesus I say that's doctrine.

You can't just Eliminate or separate a true Jesus with a true gospel from

discussing doctrine.

Yeah, that that's exactly right.

I mean that's to talk about Jesus to sing about Jesus to

meditate on on on Jesus is to engage in a kind of

Doctrinal activity.

We don't always think of it that way and again.

Sometimes it's done very poorly very sloppily very very kind of haphazardly.

But but it shouldn't be.

And the other thing that I would keep coming back to again is when the Apostle Paul Instructs Timothy.

He just keeps coming back to doctrine over and over again.

He says in first Timothy for if you put these things before the brothers you'll be a good servant of Christ

Jesus being trained in the words of the faith and Of the good doctrine that you have followed.

And you know train yourself for godliness.

And so, you know this doctrinal component of ministry and of teaching and of

discipleship and of and of Growth in the faith is is

is just something that is part of the irreducible minimum of of Christianity.

Yeah, and.

The.

The naivete of people who will rebuke Christians for being

in their minds preoccupied with doctrine if they

would themselves be opposed to very oppressive

cultic religion religion that is cruel

religion that is merciless and Unforgiving and harsh

and Religion that micromanages people's lives and

strips them of all freedom and peace.

The way that you would expose these cultic religions

For their error and dismiss them as being a counterfeit of Christianity or a counterfeit

of a true religion of God is by using doctrine.

That's the way you're going to do it.

You're not going to refute them by using feelings.

Yeah, it's not going to be impressive to these people or

persuade them in any way if you just said you hurt my feelings or What you're saying is bringing

me down or why don't you just be joyful and lift up Jesus?

You have to open up your Bible and you have to prove Doctrinally that these oppressive cultic

religions are false.

Right.

Totally right.

And so there's that element of it as well.

Which is our outward witness as Christians and the witness that we have as a church is dependent upon the

clarity of our doctrine and because that is the answer that we give to cults,

but not just cults to anything that denies the truth of the Christian faith any any kind of

worldview or system or religion that denies the the truths of we

we we.

Engage with that on a doctrinal level and so you're right for that for the witness of the

church for the Distinctiveness of the church for the for the possibility that the church can give answers.

We need to think doctrinally and and then I also think just for the growth of Christians.

We need to be thinking doctrinally, but you're absolutely right about that outward apologetic necessity

for doctrine and even.

In order to Rebuke and chastise

Those who are in theologically sound

Religions denominations churches fellowships who have

developed cultic practices or Or how have succumbed to an

authoritarian oppressive way of operation the way that you would

Even correct brothers in Christ who have drifted into those eras it would be through

doctrine once again Showing from the scriptures that the church leaders are not

the Lord over the flock and other things and You know And of course of

the the humility that must be present and leaders and all kinds of things that you would find from the scriptures That

that just your own personal feelings or gut reactions to things could never counteract.

Yeah, I mean that verse I quoted just a few minutes ago from 1st Timothy 4.

And where Paul mentions, you know being trained in the words of the faith and the good doctrine that comes in the

context of just.

The kind of thing you talked about where the Paul says that that the Spirit says that in later times

Some will depart from the faith and devote themselves to myths and all kinds of legalistic rules and things like that.

The kinds of things you're describing.

And what's the answer?

Well, the answer is continue to teach sound doctrine.

That's how that stuff gets refuted and and that's how we're supposed to.

Supposed to tackle it.

We're gonna go to our first break right now.

And if you would like to join us on the air, we are only going to be Interviewing Jonathan

master for another half hour.

So I would strongly urge you to submit your question.

If you have a question in mind that you'd like him to answer our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state

and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and Only

remain anonymous.

It's about a personal and private matter Over which you are asking and I could obviously see that this

subject would readily lend itself to a question like that.

Perhaps you're in a church.

Where you are becoming?

More certain that the doctrine of the church is false or something like that.

You don't want to publicly identify yourself yet can fully understand why you'd want to remain anonymous.

But other than that, please give us at least your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

Don't go away.

God willing.

We're gonna be right back.

After these messages with dr. Jonathan master and our discussion on why

theology matters.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

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Iron radio.

And we are back to our discussion today with Jonathan master.

And we are discussing for the first hour doctrine matters coming up in the second hour.

We will have pastor Ron glass of Wading River Baptist Church and host of the River of Life radio program.

Who will be on to discuss the church family matters?

But if you'd like to join us now with a question of your own for Jonathan master our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com we have Joe in Slovenia.

Who has a question for you Jonathan, and I don't know if he made a typo, but he says Dear brother

Chris.

Thanks so much for having mr. Theology On the program, so I'm not

sure if that's the type over.

That's a nice.

It's a nice nickname to have though.

I received that.

Guess it would be more appropriately dr. Theology, right?

But he says I was shocked today to receive a newsletter from a young man

in our church who attended an ecumenical conference with Roman Catholics Eastern Orthodox and a smattering of

liberal Protestants who gathered for a week of dialogue and I'm not sure how

to Pronounce this but it's T as in Thomas a I Z as in zebra e.

Worship in Siberia.

I'm sorry in Serbia Tase or ties worship in Serbia.

He returned agnostic about Transubstantiation the use of icons and all things mystical.

What should a pastor be doing regularly and systematically in preaching teaching and discipling of his flock

to prevent this type of?

Travesty, thank you for any advice that you can pass on to help me shepherd others.

Just I don't I don't know a tremendous amount about this

Taiji or ties worship.

I'm not I'm not even sure if I'm pronouncing it correctly.

But I think it's it's something to do with a kind of contemplative tradition

that You know has these a lot of silence built in and there are

there are icons that are used and there's not.

You know, it's not centered around the preached word.

At all, it's sort of templative practice, but in any case, I mean, that's not the main part of the

question.

The main part of the question it involves How to help and train people.

I think what you do is you just patiently continue to teach And preach the Word of God and as a

pastor or as a Christian friend.

You're not just teaching the text and and and failing to apply it.

You're you're consistently showing in both your own life and in your teaching that the Word of God

Has significant application for the people of God today.

And so I think so, you know, you you you never know what kinds of challenges someone's gonna face.

It's kind of like the question people have about you know What is my what is my son or daughter need to know before they go to?

College if they're gonna maybe be faced in a secular environment for the first time well, it's hard to give a

comprehensive answer, but what you want to do is you want to establish them in the In the major truths of the faith and

You want to establish them in in content in a posture of confidence and submission to the Word of God?

So so those are the things you keep coming back to and then as Issues arise in your own life as

people ask you questions.

That's what you're you're going back to, you know.

Incidentally, I was thinking about this on the break and I remember in the first

that I served.

I.

I had a whole lot of people who would come to me with questions as often happens with pastors.

The questions weren't Typical sort of quote -unquote doctrinal or theological questions.

In other words, I didn't have too many people who come to me and say hey.

Why don't you talk to me a little bit more about the hypostatic Union or something like that?

However, what I realized pretty quickly was that almost every question They were asking me whether it was about their

marriage or about you know Their kids or about worship or something like that was essentially a theological and

doctrinal question and what they were really asking me even though they wouldn't put it in these terms is can you can you

take the teaching of Scripture and and Can you show me how it fits together and and guides

me? In in this particular area.

So you just want to keep doing that keep modeling that and then whatever it is that an individual faces whatever false

teaching they face.

What what you hope and and you and you praise that they will be able to to to sniff

that out and again we're just going straight back to first Timothy where he tells them to just

Continue on in in the teaching and the doctrine that he's already heard.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York who says

Could hold on a second.

Could you Please list the bare bones of what essential

doctrines are that must be believed universally by all Christians.

I am NOT saying that we should just stick to the bare bones in our Everyday

Christian lives and in our teaching and preaching.

I am just saying what you think are the core non -essential Non -negotiable non

-debatable issues that must be within the hearts and minds of every Christian.

I want to be careful in the way I answer this.

I'm not I'm not saying that all of these things someone needs to understand in order to be

a Christian believer in order to be saved.

I don't know What the thief on the cross knew except that he knew that Jesus

was was unjustly being You

know being killed and that he was the one to whom he needed to turn for forgiveness of sins.

So so in a sense I was a very minimal Set of things that he that the thief on the cross knew and yet

Jesus said today you'll be with me in paradise.

He also said that remember me in your kingdom.

He.

Definitely you're right.

Yes, you're right.

You're right.

So, I mean, I think there were Messianic and certainly a Messianic overtones overtones of

him being God in the flesh, but but you know.

So so there's that answer that I would give to the question but I think to that this is actually where some of the

historic creeds really help us because certainly every Protestant

creed is very clear that it is.

It is in line with the confession of the doctrines that have of the ecumenical creeds that have

that have come before.

The second Helvetic Confession says this explicitly the creeds of the four councils received.

We believe and freely confess with an open mouth.

And so that's that's a helpful guide sometimes to look back and to say what are the things that Christians have always

confessed?

And and then if you want to go a little broader than that those Reformed confessions themselves

are very useful for we're kind of distilling the essence of.

What's necessary to?

Unite a church together.

So those are some places I would go.

But again, you know.

Yeah, I would want to start by thinking about you know.

What it is that Christ commands at a base level someone to understand and and believe

for for salvation.

Now, do you think that there is a difference? between The secret

things that belong to God like for instance for us to be absolutely

100 certain That somebody that we know Who has aberrant

teaching to declare with certainty that person is hell when they die.

Where we are in some sense is delving into the secret realm because we don't really know everything that was going on

In the heart and mind of that person and we don't really know with that much certainty

What forgiveness is going to be extended in regard to the aberrant the views of the person.

Well, there's a difference between that and churches and religions that rise up with leaders

who establish a teaching and are by their own

definition and by their own Religious documents whether they want to call them

creeds and confessions or not, but they are denying the deity of Christ.

They are denying the Trinity.

They are denying the bodily resurrection of Christ or denying the the

virgin birth of Christ of denying salvation by grace alone through faith alone.

Isn't that where we really a Christian in his attitude towards

those types of individuals.

There is a far different approach where we must

Expose them as being false.

We must warn them about Their teachings being damnable as the Apostle

Paul did with the Judaizers.

Isn't this that it's a whole different matter when you're talking about Established people

or or people who are Even as individuals professing

A declaration.

I do not believe Jesus is God.

I do not believe in the Trinity.

Isn't that that difference between Somebody who might have muddled Thinking and so

on where they're where their belief system is not has not been Educated and there might

especially when you're talking about a deathbed or near -death experience like the one that the

thief on the cross experienced.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean the more public and well articulated the teachings are the more you can You know

say pretty definitive things about them when you're talking about one individual and maybe some muddled

comments.

That seem to go in contradictory directions.

It's harder to make definitive statements.

But you know, I mean the Bible of course makes those kinds of statements.

You mentioned Paul's words to the Galatians.

But also, you know in in John chapter 3, but this is just the kind of

Shorthand, but it says whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.

Whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains in him.

So if someone is denying Who Jesus is or of denying his claims

or or denying the central truths about God and and who he is in his? Contrary nature

then then, you know, we we know what to say because the Bible's told us what to say but the more

public and articulated it is you're.

The easier it is to make those statements and the more private and muddled and sort of personal.

It is the harder it is for us to to say those kinds of things.

Now one of the things that has troubled me personally is when I have met people

Recently.

And perhaps I've some of the same things could have been said with people that I Have met long ago and just

don't recall.

But I have heard Christians even professedly reformed

Christians Say like for instance when I've asked them, who do you?

Count among True brothers in Christ.

Who do you count among those that you would view as?

Genuine.

Born from above believers and I have heard the answer

on occasion those who embrace the Apostles Creed

now the Apostles Creed we would agree with the contents of it, but it is Really

insufficient when it comes to soteriology.

The issue of soteriology isn't really addressed in the Apostles Creed.

That's why the reformers and and reformed groups that arose

later in history after the Reformation hammered out the Westminster Confession and the 1689 London

Baptist Confession and the Savoy Declaration and the 39 articles of religion and other

creeds and confessions the three forms of unity.

They hammered out those creeds and confessions because of the fact that the Apostles Creed while being true is not

really a sufficient article of faith to just cling to on its own.

Yeah, I'm all for robust statements of Doctrine.

I mean, I think that the smaller and more bare -bones.

It is the more it is open to misunderstanding and and

Miscommunication.

So while as you say the Apostles Creed talks about Jesus suffering and death and

burial and resurrection All of which is obviously central to our

our salvation.

If there are some there are some gaps in terms of in terms of the truths of the

gospel that that exists there, so I agree with you that that Protestant

reformers were really Really working hard for the good of the church and for the good of

Christians.

To spell some of those things out in a way that Is is far far

more helpful.

Let's see.

We have Christopher from

Suffolk County, Long Island who says what do you make of the claim that?

Protestants are in no position to tell Roman Catholics what to believe.

When it is the Roman Catholic Church that gave us the Bible to begin with

you know.

I would just dispute the whole notion in One of

the things say one is the the people of God do

not create the Word of God.

The Word of God creates the people of God in fact even in your own life and in your own salvation.

It's the Word of God that James says Is used by God's Spirit to bring

forth? Life so that's one thing sort of at a theological level.

It's always the Word of God who creates the people of God at a historical level though.

I think that's groundless too because what we see happening in the early church is not a

is not a Process of of the church deciding what's supposed

to be the Bible and what's not it's it's a process of them Recognizing what is

apostolic teaching in line with the scriptures of the Old Testament?

So so that's what they were doing.

They never used the word.

They never used the language of deciding they use the language of Recognizing and and then

furthermore to add kind of another Argument against that I think to to

to call the early church the early centuries of the church the Roman Catholic Church is

also profoundly misleading because The Roman Catholic Church in the shape that

in the shape and form that we know it today is is not something that is that is.

That we see in the in the first centuries of the church in fact actually You

know the primacy of Rome and and the primacy of the Roman Bishop isn't something that comes until

Much much later.

So at a number of levels at a broad theological level I think it's misguided at a at a historical level in terms of

actually what happened I think it's wrong and then and then even ascribing to what happened

Credit to the Roman Catholic Church is is the kind of anachronism because the

Roman Catholic Church Wasn't you know, that wasn't what was what was how things were structured,

right?

And.

It's also very interesting that the Roman Catholic Church has dogmatically Declared the

apocryphal books or as they call them the Deuteronomic Deuterocanonical books Deuterocanonical

Deuterocanonical books.

They have declared them to be part of the Old Testament canon and yet the Jews have never

recognized them as part of their canon and That's one of the main reasons

that.

But that is actually the primary reason that the the Protestants and the Reformers have never

Embraced with.

There have been some Anglicans and for a period that embraced I think to some degree the apocryphal

apocrypher, but.

The.

The the consensus of the Reformers Is that these were not to be embraced in

fact Jerome.

Who.

Brought the the Latin Vulgate to being into being.

He did not believe that the Apocrypha should have been included in the Vulgate

because he knew that the Jews never recognized the Apocrypha or the Deuterocanonical

books as God breathed Jewish canon and yet he was

Pressured by the Vatican to include them.

So it's it's kind of interesting that they would be declaring that they gave us our Bible when they've

Given us a Bible that is not completely accurate.

Yeah, and that whole process is interesting too because you're right that the declared Canonicity of the

apocryphal books is something that's far different I think from what you see in the early church with the recognition of

the New Testament canon again.

That was a recognition process.

They were saying just what you said.

Is this an agreement with the Old Testament scriptures?

Is this apostolic and and the the apocrypha was a much different kind of

process?

It was was much more of a decision and a declaration than a recognition now,

even if you want to bring into the.

Equation of that argument that the Roman Catholic Church gave us the Bible even if you want to intend

To mean by that statement that Roman Catholic scribes

Who received the texts down through the ages

Were a part of the physical preservation of the Word of God and then you have

Erasmus translating the Bible into Greek and so on but even if you want to

Include that part of it that they physically Were a main and a vital and important

part of the preservation of the Word of God that was handed down eventually to Protestants.

Who.

Who took much advantage of it and had it translated into the common

native tongue of people's all over the world?

The the fact of the matter is that does not give some kind of a Seal of

approval on the Church of Rome just like The fact that the Jewish scribes

are to be accredited for preserving the old Covenant

teachings the the Hebrew scriptures they were to be accredited and are to be

accredited for preserving meticulously preserving of Obviously by God's

sovereignty and providence that word which was passed on all the way through the New Covenant

and yet those very people cried out for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

and they in Majority denied Christ.

So you can't use the fact that like we could the Jews could just as easily say How could you say

that?

We're not saved.

We gave you the Bible at least half of it.

Or at least the what you would call the Old Testament, how can you say that we are to be rejected?

We gave you your Old Testament well, obviously that doesn't.

Give one a pedigree that makes them deserving of some special status, does it?

No, it doesn't I mean all of these things were used by God in his providence to preserve his word and we should be

grateful to the Lord For that but just because Something or someone is used by God in his providence doesn't

mean that person Deserves any credit or necessarily is even right with God

himself.

And so Yeah, I mean Absolutely.

There are all kinds of ways in which God has used Unbelievers to to

accomplish his end including the preservation of the scriptures and that doesn't necessarily Give them

any special spiritual claim to a knowledge of God.

Well, we are out of time Jonathan.

It was such a joy to have you back on the program and we are looking forward to your return.

Hopefully next time you could be on with us for two hours again, but I know that some important

websites are for Cairn University C -a -i -r -n dot edu C -a -i

-r -n dot edu and also alliance net org Alliance net

org and also place for truth org Place for truth org.

Do you have any other contact information you care to share?

No, those are the big ones.

That's helpful also, if people are interested in theology on the go they can download that at place for truth org or

go on iTunes and Subscribe to it and that that'll just come to your iTunes account

every two weeks.

Great.

Well, God bless you brother and thank you once again for being in the show.

We look forward to your return.

Thanks guys.

Always good to talk with you YouTube brother and coming up next.

Don't go away because we have pastor Ron Glass one of my dearest friends one of the most

vital sponsors and supporters of Iron Sherpins Iron Radio is Coming on for our second

hour to complement the first topic which was doctrine matters.

The second half of the program will be focused on the church family matters and.

So if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for pastor Ron Glass our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail

.com.

Don't go away.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

If you just joined us our second guest for the second hour of iron Sherpins iron radio is

going to be pastor Ron glass Waiting River Baptist Church in Waiting River, Long Island, New

York.

He's also host of the River of Life radio program heard Saturdays at 9 30 a .m

Eastern Time and Sundays at 7 30 p .m. Eastern Time.

It's heard globally via live streaming at Eastgate broadcasting .com Eastgate

Broadcasting .com and you can also hear Ron glass on the

radio on the FM dial in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island.

And you can find out the frequencies where you can tune in to that program at Eastgate.

Eastgate broadcasting .com as well Eastgate broadcasting .com we are going to be

discussing for the second hour the church family matters.

But before we get to pastor Ron in our discussion.

First of all, make sure you send in your emails.

If you have a question that you'd like to ask and the sooner the better because we only have one hour To go to

discuss these things with pastor Ron.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com chris A -r -n -z -e -n at

gmail .com and please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA.

But before we get to the topic, we have some important announcements to make.

First of all of the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York in cooperation with the Long Island Spurgeon

Fellowship are very honored to announce that they will be hosting the

Gospel of the Reformation the 500th anniversary celebration featuring my dear friend.

Dr Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary where he serves as a professor of apologetics

and Islam.

The event will be held on Friday September 29th and Saturday September 30th

at the the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island.

If you would like to Register for this event, which is absolutely free.

By the way, it's absolutely free of charge.

A love offering will be taken.

But you can register at the Word of Truth website wot church .com

wot church .com or call them at six three one eight zero six zero six fourteen

six three one eight zero six zero six one four.

Then after that the Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Medford, Long Island, New York will also be featuring.

Dr Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary at their Sunday morning worship that will be

Sunday October 1st the day after the Reformation anniversary celebration.

Sunday October 1st at 11 a .m. At the Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, New York.

If you would like to attend that event Go to hopereformedli

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three one six nine six five seven one one six three one six nine six five seven one one.

Then after that in November from the 17th through the 18th the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their conference

on the theme For still our ancient foe.

This is a part of the Quaker town conference Quaker town conference on reformed theology series

November 17th through the 18th at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker town, Pennsylvania the

speakers are Kent Hughes Peter Jones Tom Nettles Dennis Cahill and Scott Oliphant and The theme for

still our ancient foe is obviously a reference to Satan From the classic him a mighty fortress by Martin Luther.

If you would like to register for that event to go to Alliance net org Alliance net org

click on events and then click on Quaker town conference on Reformed theology and then last but not

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The January the 17th is exclusively a Spanish speaking edition of the conference from the

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Anthony Mathenia Michael Kruger David Miller Paul Tripp Todd Friel

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Me at that conference go to g3 conference calm g3 conference calm click

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Actually, you don't have to do that you just have to click on a g3 conference 2018 that's what you click on.

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Make sure that you tell all of the all of the ministries and the churches and the power church organizations that are running these events.

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Excuse me for being a bit distracted, but our guest has not yet called Ron Glass of Waiting River Baptist Church.

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to me personally In regard to this program.

He he saw in the importance of this program.

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program.

When we are going to begin the topic for the second hour the church family matters.

With pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, New York.

And as I said, he's also host of the River of Life radio program heard Saturdays at 9 30 a .m Eastern Time

and Sundays at 7 30 p .m. Eastern Time at Eastgate broadcasting

calm Eastgate Broadcasting calm where you can hear via streaming anywhere in the world.

And if you live in Suffolk County, Long Island, you can go to Eastgate Broadcasting calm.

Eastgate broadcasting calm and find out the frequencies because they have a couple of them.

Where you could tune in to the River of Life program on the FM dial.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio my dear friend pastor Ron Glass.

Thank you and our topic as I just mentioned is the church family matters

now.

The church as you were saying to me before we went on the air Seems to have become

something that is almost just like an Obligation where someone perhaps

Just goes once a week to the worship service they fulfill their obligation

and then they leave and they Many people rarely and perhaps never have any

interaction with the people there.

Who are members there?

They don't really view it as a family.

They don't really view themselves as a member of a family and sometimes to be perfectly honest.

You may have churches that Perpetuate that feeling in the in the hearts and minds of people

because they don't function as a family they don't act like a family, but if you could just Comment on the issue of the

church as a family and why it matters.

Today, we probably ought to

go back 40 years

church life and

over and over again.

We find ourselves in today.

What I had thought maybe we could do is my Christians should be

committed to a local church.

And you'll notice that I said why they should be committed not just why they should go.

Or why they should attend or even why they should be a member of the local church, but why they should

be committed.

I know that I and my wife and some other sometimes to the sea with

the word everybody dreads Commitment in a local church

local reasons.

Actually, I have shared nine different reasons

Why did to a local church and that whole family thing is certainly one of

them.

I would just be

there to love and

good deeds not

forsaking our own assembling together as the have.

Encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

There's a whole lot in those verses.

But it's interesting that he ties

holding

fast

one.

Considering how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds which implies that

a truth we have to be living that truth and

We need each other in order to stimulate each other to

Demonstrate what secret of that is not for

staying together.

He makes it very clear that in

that first century.

It was already the hedge approaching.

It's more important than ever that we

beat the central idea that

there's a love and good

deeds and I would simply

ask Our listeners today.

How long has it been since you encouraged anyone or

to love?

Well, you brought up a very important word in that a word that is used a lot of

misused to the point where it's banal and doesn't even really jump

into our Consciousness when we heard the word love and we use it flippantly, but

the fact of the matter is going back to the word family.

The.

Gathered assembly To which we belong the body of

Christ locally that is a spiritual family

that we are to be attached to that in many Significant ways is

even more serious and more important and more vital than the blood family.

That we were born into isn't it?

Yes.

And in fact that comment is made many times.

I've heard that arc is

often made with my brothers and sisters

blood relatives who are not.

The Lord expects us to live and to love.

We're to love each other as a family would love each other, which means we need to build.

And

one of the things that I find very.

Would.

Well.

Counterproductive.

Certainly disturbing in a way.

And maybe you've had this experience.

You walk into a new church.

You walk in the door and not necessarily at the last minute.

You walk in the door and nobody greets you nobody talks.

You sit down and you.

And then you get up and you walk out and nobody talks

to you.

Now, if I could encourage if your church is like

that if you basically don't pay much people

who aren't the beautiful people or the rich.

People make yourself a committee of one or a committee

stand at the door that they're welcome.

If there's something we can do to help you call upon us

get to know their names their faith demonstrate to these people that

Love is something we believe in in this church.

And we do want to reach out to you.

And you have to be prepared to back those things up that you tell the

people.

Otherwise, you'll be just like those that James condemns in his epistle that can say be

warm and filled.

Be warm and filled.

And they do absolutely nothing when the person actually has need.

And I think that part of the major part of the responsibility for that lies on

the past preaching and

some over again.

We need to reach ride by people

up and down

person where they're wearing the right clothes.

Did they drive the right kind of car did they live in the right neighborhood.

And that whole thing had to be just shattered.

Destroyed.

Every church needs

to have that.

Well, I want to make sure of since you had nine things that you go through some of the others because we Are going to a break in

ten minutes and then we have just about 20 minutes after that.

All right.

Well a second.

Third thing actually, we've said that the scripture commands it.

That's one reason to be committed to the church.

Secondly that the Lord expects us to live and love as a family.

Thirdly, I would say that the Lord expects us to worship him.

Incorporately, we know the with

wine that's dissipation but be filled with the Spirit

speaking to one another in Psalms and hymns and Spiritual songs

her heart to the Lord in the book of Colossians.

The same point is made although the language is a little different because he says let the word of Christ

Dwell richly within one another with

Psalms.

This worship has to be done Congregationally corporately.

We speak to each other.

We teach each other.

We admonish each other Through our singing and through

the Word of God dwelling richly and then are

from the heart to God.

We cannot worship the Lord.

I mean we can worship the Lord individually.

Yes in our devotional lives our family worship and so on but the Lord clear

and we can't do that if we're not there.

Yeah that going back to the family aspect of that that reminds me if I were to give an analogy

if you live within you know five to twenty minutes from your own

family your physical blood relatives and Year after year

when they gather for Christmas when they gather for Thanksgiving

when they gather for birthdays and when they gather for all kinds of special

family Unions.

If you were to just say well, I'm not going to any of those things people in your family would be

Perhaps even crushed saying you're a part of our family.

Why why aren't you here with us?

Why are you dismissing us?

Why are you avoiding us?

Why are you shunning us?

Well, it is infinitely even more important that if you are a

Member of a church or even if you're not a member of a church.

That this is more compelling that you you should be and must be you you live within a reasonable

distance from a gathered assembly of God's people.

You must connect yourself to them because God has a family and he he nowhere in the

scriptures identifies these lone wolf maverick people

roaming around in isolation.

Not attaching themselves to a local assembly of Bible believers in ever that those kinds

of people are not identified in the scriptures as genuine Christians.

But some of them are rather creative.

I just Resigning as members

teaching and any better teaching anywhere.

I just want to.

I want to be free to go from church to churches visit around and he says, I guess.

But you see some people could come up with these creative reasons.

In fact you may you may remember that at one of your.

Conservative Baptist Association.

Dinner parties.

You had me do an MC.

You had me MC the the event and I sang a comical song called the wanderer about a Christian that does that.

We have to be careful that we don't get involved in that and then that leads to another thing which is

that the Lord expects us not only to worship him together, but he expects us to learn the word together and

That's the purpose of the teaching and equipping through

teachers to the church and for the purpose of

building up the Saints, right?

He says For the equipping of the Saints for the work of service building up the body of Christ so that we

attained him got time

to expound.

Oh, but you can see the importance to the individual Christian of Had of

being exposed to the teaching

ministry

equipped

Word.

Well, this can't happen in isolation and frankly, it's not good enough to say well I can stay

home and I can watch my favorite TV preacher.

You're not worshiping with the people of God and there is

Something missing I can tell you what it is.

It's when you are sitting in the congregation and you are listening to

spiritual anointed preaching.

It is very different from sort of listening with one ear while

you're probably thinking and doing about going

to church.

Yes, and if you aren't aware of a church that is

within traveling distance to you then you you really have to move.

If you're gonna be a An obedient Christian you either have to move or you have to somehow

Get in contact with churches that will plant a church near you.

But but you can't just remain in isolation and use where you live as an excuse.

Or if you're coming to drive we have but

we have one family in particular one a couple of drives an hour

I mean here on Long Island and We have other people making long

-distance trips.

They've just decided that this is where they want to be now.

It makes it more difficult to be committed.

So it's a serious decision to make.

Now, of course if by some providential means there are people who are

listening in countries where it's impossible that they will be under the

Penalty of death, you know if they're in living in a Muslim see it theocracy somewhere.

Well, obviously we understand that they're not necessarily going to be able to join a church unless they escape Where they are

somehow but but when we're talking about people many people

millions of people who have the means to Easily get to church or

even just relocate.

This is.

Where there's a will there's a way

and then the Fortunate thing about it is when it's a matter of obedience to the word the

one who makes the way.

It should be.

Absolutely impossible.

Don't neglect to be a part of a local church.

We're going to our final break right now.

And now is the time to send in your emails if you haven't already done it before we run out of time.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name your city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

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Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WLIE radio

www .wlie 540 a .m.

Dot -com.

We bring biblically faithful Pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs

a pastor.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

If you just tuned us in our guest today for the remaining 25 minutes is

Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church, Wading River, Long Island, New York and host of the River of

Life Radio program heard every Saturday at 9 30 a .m. Eastern Time and every Sunday

at 7 30 p .m. Eastern Time via live streaming globally at Eastgate Broadcasting .com

Eastgate Broadcasting .com and if you live in Suffolk County, Long Island.

You can also go to that same website to find out where you could tune in River of Life on your FM

dial.

They have a couple of frequencies and that's Eastgate Broadcasting .com.

We're discussing the church family matters.

If you'd like to join us on the air Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Before you go on to some of the other areas pastor Ron and your list.

Regarding why the church family matters.

Wouldn't you say it is applicable to?

To cite 1st John chapter 420 if someone says I love God and

hates his brother.

He is a liar for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot

love God.

Whom he has not seen now people might say well, I don't hate those people.

I just don't want to be around him.

I mean that is really a sign that they do not love those people and they are really in

Very serious jeopardy if they do not realize that the

Genuine love of God's people would be to be connected to them.

Am I off base here?

All right.

No, we know are hard to

get along with.

There are going to

be people in that fellowship.

They probably would not gravitate to.

So we understand that.

So maybe there's a person in the church.

It's just not your favorite person in the world.

That's all right.

The love aspect this love of which John speaks and the love of God.

Defined by the word of agape, which is a word.

It's not a feeling word.

It's a doing word and you can genuinely love a person.

But you know what the more you live with people like this the more you work with him the more you serve

you are to eventually love.

In fact, I.

Just was speaking to a brother in Christ, I'm not going to identify him but I was speaking to a brother in Christ today

when we were talking about a mutual a friend and he said, you know

something when I first met this guy I Could not stand him.

I hated his guts.

I thought he was the most arrogant Self -absorbed proud person I met but I've really grown to

love this brother and have fun with him and enjoy his company.

So it's just interesting what patients can accomplish.

Now there are Chris.

I mean I have never been hurt as deeply as I have been by professing Christians.

And I a lot of people can repeat that story.

I have never been had my life as dramatically affected negatively.

Whether it comes to financially or cruel remarks or a whole

myriad of things as much.

I've never been negatively affected as much by the people of the world as I have by professing Christians.

But that but that doesn't give us a license to abandon Christians or the church?

We can't we can't abandon Jesus because of Judas.

But to give go give us some of these other reasons.

If you look

at passages like Well, one of the ones that really impresses he

goes through a whole cab people there in the Church of Rome.

He's greeting and he talks about them as workers and those who work hard and

in first Corinthians 16 we're very

committed to to worship.

Excuse

me to work need

to be done in the church and frankly many of them are

distinctly we're talking about ushering.

We're talking about keeping the nursery.

We're keeping we're talking the church.

I mean, there are a lot of jobs that may not be too glamorous.

But if you do them as unto the Lord.

Another thing the Lord

expects us to do is to pray to get

a time I won't readers are interested turn

to Acts chapter 4.

What do they do?

They they think particularly of

the

church was

praying

with me

Barnabas and fall

congregation.

There's power in united prayer.

And that's why our prayer

any churches today.

They've been canceled altogether.

I think back number of years ago when I was attending One of

America's

been

denied.

They actually did have prayer meeting now on an average Lord's Day.

You would probably on the campus of that church at one time

or another they had multiple services.

But prayer meeting on Wednesday night was essentially

now when you consider the percentage of 60 to 10 ,000.

You can see that did

not attend prayer meeting.

That said and eat together.

I your church has a prayer a part of it and

by all means pray.

I I'm sure even our church for years

not

to want to pray.

Another thing is that the Lord expects of

the corporate body.

He's laid out a plan for church discipline look

reformers as one

of the distinguishing marks of the church.

Calvin in particular made that a major point and.

So if you're not part of the church body if you're not a member of a local church and I do want to

stress that I think every Christian ought to be a member not just an attender but a member of a

local church.

Part of the reason for that is Placing yourself and

right at the beginning going in you need to understand that if you are going to live in sin.

Something that actually does yes, and I for one who has

personally Experienced church discipline can actually praise God for it because

it may have saved my life and This is not supposed to be viewed as some ugly

Hateful thing even though of course, we know that there are perhaps churches.

But in fact not even perhaps there are certainly churches and cults and other things that do discipline people

in in very unbiblical and Mean -spirited in hateful ways, but when it's done

properly It is supposed to be an act of love and it's supposed to be done with the intention of

restoring.

Someone to the family.

We're not talking about conducting an Inquisition.

We're talking about loving a person back into fellowship with

Christ

Corinthians 16.

Let me say this that I think that if we as Christians are

doing less than tithing We're in disobedience.

Not the tithe is not the standard for the New Testament Church.

It predated the law so we have to understand that

to do less than a tithe is to do less than those who were under the law or Or in the Old Testament.

We are to be giving generously the Lord loves a cheerful Generous giver were to give as

God as we have missionary in our church.

We have a substantial support obligation for our missionaries and we need our people to give regularly for that.

The ministry, you know it is a real hindrance when the ministry suffers for lack of

my supply the kinds of

Equipment and so on that are needed and certainly just have retracted.

If not, it totally eliminated their foreign missionary giving.

If you don't show up my guess is you're not giving on a

regular basis and there have been a number of survey

with regard to their level of giving and It comes out roughly that

every one of them and it's come up to somewhere between two and three percent of their income.

Is the average?

Amen.

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

Who says.

I know that this could take a whole episode.

But what would you say are the only reasons that a person can legitimately and biblically

leave?

A faithful church.

Yeah.

Leave a faithful church, right?

I'm assuming you would include the necessity to move if I mean there are people that do have a necessity to relocate to

another State country etc.

But anything else other than that?

Well, I think sometimes.

There are churches the pulpit ministries of which are essential

and once you've become

a critic you may find that it gets to a point

where Message every week is not feeding you and

It may be legitimate.

I would not be

leaving for frivolous reasons things like

I don't.

Somebody somebody looked at me cross I I'll tell you I we've had Thing I've been accused of you know.

If I walked through Sunday school to my office before

church and and I've had people out, you know.

And get very indignant over that.

Well, I got a lot of other things on my mind right at that moment.

So, I mean things like that people can get their noses out of joint and then walk out of a church.

And I think those are those are not.

And Reverend buzz Reverend buzz Taylor has something to say.

I think the problem with that question is it didn't give enough information.

I would say he would leave a faithful church to go to another faithful church.

Or I would leave a faithful church to go plant another faithful church.

And that would imply also That you were leaving that faithful church in a

respectful way and not in a way That was causing further

damage.

You know, I mean there are people that leave flippantly.

They don't even ever contact the church that they left again without.

You know, they don't even give them a reason or notice.

I I think

there's another

thing to reality is that

if you are not regularly Attending

Making sure if you are not involved in ministry in

the chances are that your children are not

going to follow.

Well, they're going to follow.

You bring in my parents,

but my parents were extremely involved in our small

teaching Sunday school Sunday school superintendent board

involved in

my mother was a teacher and I my

whole heritage intimately and Almost

I mean this was where they this was where their friends were this is

where their

life and my children are

learning from important that

and.

Let's see here.

We have.

We have BB and Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and BB

says.

So there are times when being a member of a family just like being a member of a

church family can involve very deep wounds.

We tend to have inflict.

Deeper wounds and be inflicted by them the closer we are to people.

How do we overcome the bitterness perhaps even hatred to those in the family?

that we have been hurt by.

Even in the church family without taking it out on the church as a whole.

Well, first of all about you

or double

-crossed you

or somehow hurt you they don't deserve your in

addition.

Sometimes, you know, I had

an incident one of the church I just

want I just want to be treated fairly and I said hold on.

First of all life isn't fair and you have to realize that I mean

you encounter this stuff in the work world.

Life isn't fair.

So don't expect things to be fair in the church.

You might not be treated fairly and second of all realize that the Lord Jesus

Christ Was supremely treated and it's the Son of God was

now.

We can you know if he could do that for us we can do this for others.

What we have to do is take our eyes

off ourselves

now in some cases.

It's a

parting of the ways that should be amicable.

But you do

whatever you can you try to.

You try to restore the relationship reconcile a relation done.

That's why Paul says as much as lies within you live peaceably with all men.

Sometimes if you can't it shouldn't be

your fault and I assume that you have no problem with.

Certain circumstances compelling a person to leave a church because of

some.

Really.

Really severe Affliction that they have received from somebody in that congregation

as long as they are Like I said earlier doing it respectfully to the leaders of that church and going on where is this?

I know of a situation where a pastor Was in a adulterous

relationship with the with a woman in the church and Then when those

two people came to a repentant Faith and

As far as the church leaders could see that these two individuals the pastor and the woman

committing adultery with them They they regretted what they did.

They repented but they were attending worship in the same church and that that caused a conflict amongst

the assembled Brethren, and it probably would have been in fact certainly would

have been a much better situation where the pastor or the Woman involved go to a different

church.

I'm assuming you would agree with that.

Well, if

you have anything you want to finalize the program a couple of points just a couple of random thoughts that I would

leave one is Do everything in your power?

Not to have to work on Sunday.

It becomes a panic for a lot of people and they

get into that mold they get into that mode.

What you need to do is if at all possible Let your employer know that you are Christian.

You are a member of the church and it's Your desire to be there on the Lord's Day

and don't you don't want to work that would be counsel.

Matthew 6 33, you know, the first kingdom of God is righteousness and all these other things will be added to you.

Second thing I would say if your spouse won't go

he

doesn't Become angry and

go to church.

Anyway, as long as he doesn't object or she doesn't object Lord I

would also say

your loyalty the Lord first and to that church body.

It is not primarily to the oh, I hear it.

It's not you're not

Loyal to the pastor, I mean you should be but he is not the reason you're in that church.

You're in that church because this is your family and you can't walk out on

and then finally I would just say Realize in so many

churches today too much

Responsibility is

being

placed

on get

involved above

all you'll

be obedient.

We have room for one more of your points.

That's it.

Oh you got to all nine of them.

Oh Wow, well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the information again

the Waiting River Baptist Church's website is wrbc .us

wrbc which stands for Waiting River Baptist Church us and also the

website where you can hear the River of Life program hosted by Ron

Glass Every Saturday at 9 30 a .m. Eastern Time and Sunday at 7 30 p .m. Eastern Time

is Eastgate broadcasting .com Eastgate broadcasting .com and you can also

go to that website to find out Where on the FM dial you can listen to that program

if you do indeed live in the Suffolk County area of New

York, and in fact, I have the the frequencies right here 90 .7 FM

93 0 .3 FM and 91 .7 FM that's

90 .7 FM 93 .3 FM and 91 .7 FM.

That's faith FM radio the network of Eastgate broadcasting and I hope that

you all Whichever way is more convenient for you, whether you live locally on Long

Island or whether you live anywhere in the world Where you need to live where you need to listen during

by live streaming.

Then or by streaming I should say Please take advantage of Eastgate

Broadcasting's website and their FM stations to listen to the River of Life program a

program that the Reverend Buzz Taylor and I edit every week for The time

restraints of a half -hour program and I can tell you that Pastor Ron Glass I can tell you

without Exaggeration or without flattery that he is one of the finest preachers.

I have ever heard in my life.

And if you are without a church home, I seriously Urge you to consider visiting and

perhaps even joining Waiting River Baptist Church of Waiting River, Long Island, New York.

Thank you so much Pastor Ron Glass for being our guest today.

I want to thank everybody who listened to especially those who took the time to write in.

Thank you Buzz Taylor.

Which is it's Buzz Taylor's hat.

It's his birthday today.

So wish happy birthday to Buzz Taylor and perhaps on your much press on Facebook or by email or

whatever.

And in fact, I'm going to go treat a Reverend Buzz Taylor to dinner for his birthday right now.

But I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior Than you are a

sinner.