Have You Not Read S3:E29 - Speaking in Tongues

Welcome to Have You Not Read, a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the saints.

Before we dig into our topic, we humbly ask you to rate, review, and share the podcast. Thank you.

I'm Dylan Hamilton, and with me are Michael Durham, Chris Giesler, and Andrew Hudson. We are gonna be reading a question sent in on our website that deals specifically, and we're gonna deal with an adjacent question after we address this first one.

But the first question reads, if someone started speaking in tongues in your church, what would you do? Do you have someone on staff who can interpret, or do you not believe that people can speak in tongues at all?

Michael, do you wanna start us off? Sure. When somebody asks a question like that, it's important to define terms.

So when anybody says the phrase speaking in tongues, there's going to be a variety of definitions that enter into somebody's mind based on how they're discipled.

And so we need to go to the word of God and let scripture interpret scripture to come up with a working definition of what this means.

At first, we know that there are different tongues, different languages, because of what happened in Genesis chapter 11.

And we read there, now the whole earth had one language and one speech, and it came to pass as they journeyed from the east that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there.

And the people there decided to build a tower so tall to the heavens that they would deliver themselves from any future flood.

They built it very tall, and they were planning to build it so tall that it would not be overcome by any flood.

And they covered the sides of the tower with the same thing that Noah covered the sides of the ark with, pitch.

Sometimes you have tar or slime, and this is the translation. But they decided to gather there to not spread out all over the place and be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth for the name of the

Lord. They said, well, let's make a name for ourselves. And so in verse five, the Lord came down to seat the city in a tower which the sons of men had built.

It was so tiny and small, he had to come down just to get close to it, is the joke. But when the Lord comes, very often this is a signal of judgment.

And so Hebrew word is pachad. And so when the Lord visits or he comes, very often it's for judgment.

Verse six, and the Lord said, indeed, the people are one and they have all one language. And this is what they begin to do. Now, nothing they propose to do will be withheld from them.

Come, let us go down there. Let us go down and there confuse their language that they may not understand one another's speech.

So the Lord scattered them abroad from there with the face of all the earth and they ceased building the city.

And therefore its name is called Babel because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth.

And from there, the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth. Thus you had the beginning of the nations. And thus we begin to hear prophecies throughout the scriptures about how

God will save the nations and he will bring them all back into a city. They were once all in one city and now he's gonna bring them all back to a city called the new

Jerusalem, the holy city that is envisioned in the new covenant full of nations. And of course, these nations come with all their own languages.

They have their own dialects. They have their own way of speaking. And although that could be incredibly confusing to listen to, it's something that brings glory to God.

So just to make a quick run for our big picture moment here at the beginning of the answer, we go from Genesis to Revelation.

So in Revelation chapter five, we have this scene where in the throne room of God in Revelation five in verse nine, and they sang a new song saying, you are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals for you were slain and you have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe, tongue and people and nation and have made us kings and priests to our

God and we shall reign on the earth. And we see this same group of people without number, a number so high that no man can count.

And these are the people of God redeemed by the blood of the lamb. And these are later described in Revelation 21 as the bride of the lamb and described as a city.

And it's a city that is filled with people who have different tongues, different languages. When you have a different language, you have different descriptors of everything in your life.

And so you end up with different cultures, different ideas of ethics, different ideas of morality, so on and so forth.

It's really what separates the people. It's really what defines the differences in the culture is language.

And that's where it all begins to diverge. God is the one who initially brought that about.

So in the Old Testament, we hear about the division of the people by their tongues, by their various different languages, which of course, from that, we see all kinds of warfare and destruction upon the face of the earth as continued violence and so on.

But then there's hope given in the seed, not only the seed of the woman, but who is also the seed of Abraham.

All the families of the earth will be blessed. Abraham receives his name because he's the father of many nations.

And we find in the New Testament that is by faith, that all those who are of faith are of Abraham, the believer.

And when we get to Acts chapter two, in the fulfillment of these old covenant promises, and we begin to see the new covenant come on the scene in a very strong and powerful way with the advent of the

Holy Spirit, we have the speaking in tongues first mentioned in the

New Testament. So that's a great place to go. So in Acts chapter two, we read in verse one, when the day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.

Then there appeared to them divided tongues as a fire and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the

Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now, what does that exactly mean?

Well, we're told in the context. So verse five, and there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.

Now, how could they be Jews from every nation? Remember that the Jews who had been exiled and dispersed among the nations, that they were often under the judgment of God, they had been displaced from their holy land and they've been spread out all over the place.

And so there were synagogues that were all over the Roman empire. And the people who grew up there, they were considered part of those nations, part of those big ethnic family groups that had their own languages, they had their own dialects, they had their own heart language, shall we say, that they and their people knew, even though they were also accustomed to using the trade language of Koine Greek, the common

Greek of the day, or in even amongst the Jews who lived closer to the holy land, they were fond of using

Aramaic, which of course they had learned in the Persian exile and part of the Old Testament is written in Aramaic.

So these people may know a lot of different languages, but the point is made in the text that these Jews who had come there for the feast, that they were from every nation under heaven.

That's the next verse that comes after verse four, right? So verse four says they begin to speak with other tongues and verse five says, now there was a bunch of people there from other nations.

So keep that in mind as we continue on. Verse six, and when the sound occurred, the multitude came together and were confused.

Why are they confused? Because they didn't understand anything that was being said? No, the opposite. Because everyone heard them speak in his own language, okay?

They were all amazed and marveled and said to one another, look, are not all of these who speak Galileans? How do they know that?

Probably their accent. Probably their accent. Peter was outed the night of Jesus' trial because of his accent. So here are these people with these awful country bumpkin accents speaking all of these different languages.

How in the world did that ever happen? And verse eight, and it says, and how is it that we hear each in our own language in which we were born?

And then it's listed Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya, adjoining

Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs. We hear them speaking in our own language the wonderful works of God.

So about three or four times there in the passage, we are told that the spirit empowered the apostles to preach in languages that although they themselves as Galileans had never learned.

All these folks there in Jerusalem from all these different nations comprising the empire of Rome, they knew these languages because they had grown up with these languages.

So when we're thinking about what does it mean to speak in tongues, we remember how it is that we got all the different languages.

We remember the promises of God that all these different nations will come up into one city and one mountain and there beat their swords and spears into plowshares and pruning hooks.

And there they're gonna have peace with one another. Well, how's that going to work when you don't understand what anyone is saying? Well, here we are at the advent of the

Holy Spirit, Pentecost and the gift of speaking in tongues is that people understand what is being proclaimed.

They hear the gospel being preached to them in the language they know best. Now, is that what we normally hear about when someone begins to talk about speaking in tongues?

Is that the normal point of view? No. No. Not in the American Christian context. Exactly. So why would, when somebody says,

I have the gift of speaking in tongues, if we were going off of what we read in Acts chapter two, we would say, oh, tell me what happened, right?

And then I'd be expecting a story, only one or two that I've ever heard, but I would be expecting this kind of story wherein which they would said, well, we were in this situation where a neighboring man from over like four villages away happened to be there in this missionary context and we've been wanting to get to this people group, but we just never had the opportunity to.

And so, well, brother so -and -so, one of the native guys here in our village who's been learning, all of a sudden, he began to preach and this guy actually understood what was being said.

Thankfully, we had somebody else here who was able to interpret what the preacher was saying so that everybody understood what was going on.

So we knew that this man understood the gospel. Okay, so that's like what would happen here.

The apostles are preaching in actual, genuine languages that people knew how to speak, even though the apostles themselves had not had that native ability.

It was a divinely enabled ability. It was an actual language. An actual language.

They understood what was being said. I think it seems like when I talk to people about this or they bring it up, they ask, do you speak in tongues?

Is this something that you do? Is this something that you practice? Is this a part of your Christian walk as if it was a spiritual discipline or something?

But in the context of where it's done there, that doesn't seem to be what's being spoken about.

There seems to be a very specific context. You gave the Old Testament. The languages were confused.

The peoples were scattered. And then Christ is prophesied about and he will inherit all of the nations.

And then here we have his disciples speaking to people from all these different nations.

Yeah, so these are actual languages connected to actual nations. And that's not exactly what most folks usually bring up and talk about.

Now, if we move forward in the book of Acts, there's another example in Acts chapter 10.

In Acts chapter 10, Peter is preaching to Cornelius and his household who have been gathered there as God had divinely orchestrated, communicated that they should be prepared.

And Peter arrives and begins to preach the gospel to them. And as he's preaching the gospel, something amazing happens.

So in Acts chapter 10, and reading verse, let's see here, let's go to verse 31.

Peter says to him, Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms are remembered in the sight of God. Send therefore, oh, this is the record of the angel.

Send therefore to Joppa and call Simon here whose surname is Peter. He's lodging in the house of Simon a tanner by the sea.

When he comes, he will speak to you. So this is what the angel says to Cornelius. And so Cornelius obeys. And then Peter comes and preaches.

Now listen to how he puts this. So in verse 34, Peter opened his mouth and said, in truth, I perceive that God shows no partiality.

But in every nation, okay, now we're talking about, you know, big picture, all these different nations. And how do we end up with different nations, by the way?

It was, well, God confused their languages. All of a sudden we had different tongues. But in every nation, whoever fears him and works righteousness is accepted by him.

The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ, he is Lord of all.

That word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea and began from Galilee after the baptism which

John preached, how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

And he goes on and preaches the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Now, while Peter is preaching this, showing that this is all supported by the holy writings, the holy scriptures.

Verse 44, while Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word and those of the circumcision who believed were astonished as many as came with Peter because the gift of the

Holy Spirit had been seen poured out on the Gentiles also. Gentiles, nations, same word.

It's the exact same word. For when they heard them speak with tongues and magnify

God, then Peter answered, can anyone forbid water that they should not be baptized?

You have received the Holy Spirit just as we have. And what happens in this context is what? The Jews who were with Peter, those who were circumcised but were part of the church, born again, part of the church, they witnessed something amazing.

Cornelius and his household, the Holy Spirit is bestowed upon them and they began to speak in tongues as well, which means what?

Began to speak in languages by God's divine power, languages that they would not have otherwise known.

Why would that be helpful in this situation? Because Cornelius was a very important man, had a very large household and he also brought everybody he knew.

So all kinds of people are here. Oh yeah, he brought them in specially for this. Yeah, all kinds of people are here, kind of like the

Feast of Pentecost. All kinds of people were there from all over. Same thing, same situation exists here. Here it specifically mentions that the group of the circumcision was kind of astonished.

Yes. So at Pentecost it says Jews from every nation were there. Here it's saying they went out to the uncircumcised, the

Gentiles, and the Holy Spirit fell on them. And that reminds me of Jesus talking about first to the

Jews, then to the Gentiles. And then also in the Great Commission, Jerusalem, and it goes out from there to all these other groups.

So to bring this back a little bit to the original question, in the American context, what they talk about as languages or as tongues, and I have had probably the least amount of exposure to this out of everybody in the room, so this is a genuine question, would they equate what is going on here with what they do in practicing tongues?

Because when I'm hearing this right off the bat, it seems like two separate categories. Or would they recognize that, or do they try and equate what's happening here with what they practice?

I think they equate it. They'll say that it's speaking in tongues, but the practice is very much different, and the context is very much different.

It doesn't look the same. And then there's additional language that's added to it. Because here, when

Peter is talking to the Gentiles for the first time, they speak in tongues, that's a confirmation that they've been saved.

He says they should be baptized with water. So that's at their salvation. Oftentimes when people talk about speaking in tongues nowadays, they'll say that comes after, they'll call it the second blessing, or the baptism of the

Holy Spirit, which is a later thing that happens as a Christian matures. But that's different.

But they do equate it. But there's some additional language that they'll use in that. And then, because we're talking about legitimate languages,

I mean, we almost have to go pare it back to what is language in this discussion as well, because.

And they also bring in terminology like ecstatic utterances. So instead of language, ecstatic utterances.

There's a verse in Corinthians where Paul is talking about love. And he talks about if I speak in the language of angels.

And so people will say, well, it doesn't have to be an actual man -made or man -understood language because there's angelic language.

But they're missing the context there, that that chapter is making a very specific point.

It's nestled between instructions to the Church of Corinthians. He's saying this is how these gifts are to be practiced.

Some of you are not. And so this specific passage, talking about the angelic languages, is nestled in some didactic passages where he's telling them very specific things.

These are how tongues, prophecies are to be done. And maybe we can visit that, what

Paul says versus what's done today. But this passage about angelic language, he's talking about a

Christian's demeanor towards other Christians. He's talking about love. If I can do all of these amazing things, and he's using hyperbole, if I can do all of this, but I don't have love, then it's meaningless.

Correct, yeah. It's meaningless. It would help for us to go to 1 Corinthians. Andrew, I'm sure. Yeah, I would say going on the

American context, I grew up in, my mother, she was charismatic. I grew up in charismatic congregations.

What we see, I'm sure Michael's gonna read relevant sections for us from 1 Corinthians 14.

What we see practiced in, okay, what I saw practiced in the 12 years that I was in a charismatic congregation as a child, after looking back on it with the prohibition of orderliness as well as one and then sequential, or also the requirement to have interpretation, that was not at all how it was practiced.

And I'll preface why I'm describing that. It was very chaotic, very chaotic.

Things were mixed together. Multiple people speaking at the same time. Unintelligibleness. This is the same type of thing that was actually happening in the

Babylon account. Everything was mixed together. In fact, I took the opportunity to look through the

Septuagint and do a cross -reference on what was happening in Acts 2 .6. So the word that's in Acts 2 .6

for confound or confused is the same Greek word that's used in Genesis 11 .9.

It talks about being mixed together. Well, how intelligible is something if it's mixed together?

You also get the same thing happening in 1 Corinthians 14, or chapter 14, with music and with signals for battle.

If things are unintelligible, they're not edifying. They cannot be constructive.

What also was happening in the Genesis account? They were building up a name for themselves. What's happening in the

New Testament? There's something being built up. The Lord's name. Yeah, and they were praising

God for that. Isn't that also in 1 Corinthians 14, about building up, edifying?

A question to the Septuagint that you looked up earlier. Did you look up the word for tongues or languages if it was the same thing, glossa, in Acts as it was in?

I didn't check that. I'll do that during the RFS. Yeah, so when you go to 1 Corinthians 12, and that's kind of the backdrop for 1

Corinthians 14, we find Paul writing about spiritual gifts, spiritual gifts.

And he says in verse four, there are diversities of gifts, but the same spirit.

There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. There are diversities of activities, but it is the same

God who works all in all. And as he's going to give a list of the diversity of the gifts, the variety of the gifts and ministries, but then after that, he spends a lot of time working through how to relate to one another, loving one another, submitting to one another in Christ, where there's not going to be cacophony.

It's not going to be chaos. Now he does say in verse seven of 1

Corinthians 12, but the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for the profit of all, right?

So very often in Pentecostal charismatic contexts, the manifestation of the spirit is understood more or less for the promotion of each one.

Like each one, look what I'm experiencing. Look what's happening to me. That goes along with this second dispensation, this second gift, the idea that I am a true believer, right?

Like you can see it, I'm a mature Christian. Yeah, so verse eight says, for one is given the word of wisdom through the spirit, to another the word of knowledge, through the same spirit to another faith, by the same spirit to another gifts of healings, by the same spirit to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerner of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

So when tongues are talked about, the different kinds of tongues, this is a different species of languages, okay?

So it's not that you learned an extra language using Duolingo, okay? It's not that, but that there's a variety of languages that suddenly you can speak, and then there's another person who's interpreting the tongues, which is also a gift from the

Holy Spirit. Now verse 11 says, but one in the same spirit works all these things. Now listen to this, distributing to each one individually as he wills.

In most Pentecostal and charismatic, or we say the full gospel churches as they call themselves, they usually manifest what they understand these things to be as they will.

But it's because, you know, it's on a schedule. You know, at this time we're going to show up and we're gonna all manifest our gifts all at the same time.

But this shows that it's an iterative kind of distribution as it is needed, as the

Holy Spirit sovereignly desires, he will do these things. And these are not performative events, right?

Remember this is for the edification, the prophet of others. So someone is not going to stand up and cause a scene and say that they have a word of knowledge.

That's not in the context. It's a kind of expectation that is set. But in this, this is about, he goes on to talk about the body, nourishing and helping all the different parts of the body, serving and blessing one another.

And we know that the Holy Spirit is the sign of the new covenant. And he's going to be working in the lives of true believers and doing his work in his ministry.

And it's not going to look performative and forced and put on a display to edify one's self.

And this is Paul's point when he finally gets to the core issue in chapter 13 of 1

Corinthians, when he says, this is about love, right? This is about a righteous and sacrificial devotion.

I'm going to be for you in the right way, even if it costs me, I'm going to humbly serve you. So in verse one of chapter 13, he says, though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love,

I have become sounding brass or a clanging symbol. Now you say, well, are we supposed to read this verse?

And suddenly now we have categories of languages. This is an offhanded remark about the tongues of angels.

Okay, Paul is not instituting a class of spiritual gifts. He's not saying that.

And we know what he's after because we keep on reading. He says, and though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith.

Now who has that? Who has all of that? He's being, he's using hyperbole. He's using exaggeration.

He's saying, even if I had the totality of all these spiritual gifts that I just listed for you a little bit ago, but have not love,

I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

So again, it's hyperbole as Chris, you mentioned. And so his point is not, you should be speaking with the tongues of angels.

That's nowhere in the text. Somebody grabs it, twists it, and then develops a massive amount of information based on it, trying to justify a mystical experience that all manner of religions have in their context.

I mean, there's a lot of confusion in the world today because there's Muslims who speak in tongues, and there's

Hindus who speak in tongues, and then everyone thinks, well, that's the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. But they're not speaking in tongues.

They're having this ecstatic experience where they have a lot of vain babble coming out of their mouth that's nonsense.

So that's not what Paul's talking about. Now remember, who was Paul's trusty companion besides Timothy or Titus?

It was Luke. Luke is the one who wrote the book of Acts. Don't you think that Paul and Luke are on the same page?

Yeah. When Luke writes Acts and says to Theophilus, his patron, they spoke in tongues.

You think he's talking about something different than what Paul's talking about when he says speak in tongues? I don't think they're confused. And I don't think the spirit is confused.

I don't think the Holy Spirit, who is the one who is inspiring all of these words to be the superintended perfect word of God, is confused about what speaking in tongues is.

Amen. Right, there's gonna be a coherence, not a confusion between Acts and 1

Corinthians. So I think to further this discussion, I think we can maybe pick up the threads of the other question, which was.

Is speaking in tongues biblical? Right, so we're thinking about. Or what does it mean biblically? Yeah, what does it mean biblically?

So biblically, what does it mean? It means somebody empowered by the Holy Spirit to speak in a language they have not learned.

It's not a native thing that they've learned or something that's added to their repertoire of usefulness and skills.

It's something that they have never learned, but all of a sudden, they're speaking fluently in a language they never learned.

And somebody, because somebody there needs to hear the gospel in their heart language. Right, yeah.

That's what we get from the book of Acts. And I think it is coherent with the book of 1 Corinthians.

Right, I had to change my stance because I think I was on a pendulum. I was raised in kind of a charismatic background, and I can remember a time where I was pressured to speak in tongues.

They wouldn't let me leave until I did it because the Spirit was there and moving and different stuff. So I remember, and I know exactly what

I said. I spoke in Spanish, and I knew what I was saying. There was no one else there that spoke Spanish. So on the pendulum,

I became a cessationist and said, that's ceased, that's done. That was for then, it's not for today.

But I think my view changed a little bit in going through Corinthians and how

Paul speaks about how they were to be used, what the tongues were. In 1

Corinthians 14, he says that they're primarily, at least tongues, are primarily for unbelievers.

It's a sign for unbelievers. In the context, in the American context that I've seen, it's a bunch of believers getting together and saying, well, this is the sign that we have the

Holy Spirit is we're speaking in tongues, rather than there is an unbeliever here that is speaking a different language that would have no way of knowing or receiving the gospel unless it was in their language.

And then that person hears it in their language and someone interprets it to confirm what has been said.

And then the way that Paul is careful to go through, this is how it looks in the context of a church.

And if it doesn't happen this way, and if it isn't for edification, if you're not doing it for love, love for the unbeliever that's there, love to edify others, then it's not of God.

And I think that kind of changed my view. I'm open to the idea of in missions where people are going out and trying to speak and there's another tribe that doesn't speak that language,

God can do what he needs to do. And he's given the context for that. Yeah, I think 1

Corinthians 14 is very helpful to understand what this is. And as you're pointing out, Paul makes it about edification, about loving others, right?

So 1 Corinthians 14, one says pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

So that you may, in other words, this is the idea of declaring the truth of God, right? Is the idea of this prophesying, not this eclipse is the harbinger of the stock market crashing.

So not that kind of nonsense. Now, verse two, it seems like confusion about what speaking in tongues was really about in the

Corinthian church, because Paul takes so much time to clarify it. It's almost like it was something that caught people's fancy and attention and they really, really wanted to have this gift of speaking in tongues and they thought it was very important to have, but they were doing it all wrong and getting it all wrong.

It's kind of sounds familiar, you know? But thankfully, there's some very clear instructions in the Bible that just straightens it all out.

So verse two, 1 Corinthians 14, but he who speaks in a tongue, and again, this is the word for language, right?

He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God, for no one understands him. However, in the spirit, he speaks mysteries.

Now, we don't have to twist this scripture out of context, right? When somebody is speaking in a tongue, meaning

I'm speaking in a language I have never learned before, and by the spirit, it's coming out,

I'm speaking a language I've never learned before, this is, he says, he does not speak to men, but to God, for no one understands him.

Okay, that's not like Paul saying, he's not saying that there's no one anywhere in the vicinity whatsoever, totality understands, because he's gonna clarify that in a moment.

He's saying that when you're speaking in a tongue, you're talking in a language that is not widely known in the group at that time.

He's talking about church order in 1 Corinthians 14. And so therefore, it's not a useless speaking because you're speaking to God, and you're not speaking nonsense, you're speaking mysteries, right?

And mysteries can be clarified. Now, this is contrasted to prophesying, verse three, but he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

Verse four, he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. In other words, if you're speaking in a tongue in a language you've never learned before, that looks mighty impressive.

And you might be building up your reputation for yourself, you might be making a name for yourself there, right? Kind of like in the plains of Shinar, people wanna make a name for themselves, but it's just cacophony and chaos unless someone's being actually edified and built up in Christ.

And that's what he who prophesies edifies the church is about. Now, verse five, he says, I wish you all spoke with tongues. Does that mean that Paul is wanting chaos in the church?

No, he wants the gospel to go out to all the nations where everybody's hearing the gospel in their heart language.

He is a missionary's heart. But even more that you prophesied, for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues unless indeed he interprets that the church may receive edification, right?

So he's concerned about edification, the building up of the saints. All right, so now he gets some more clarification on speaking in tongues.

Verse six, but now brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching, right?

If I just come speaking in languages you don't know and I don't know, who's gonna be helped? So he says, verse seven, even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?

As you already pointed out, that the trumpet should not make an uncertain sound, otherwise he will prepare for battle. So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken?

For you'll be speaking into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, listen to this, and none of them is without significance.

You know what he's saying there? He's saying there are people from all these tribes, all these dialects, all these languages, and they all have meaning.

They all have, that's what the idea of the term significance is. So when he's talking about speaking in tongues, very clearly he's talking about the variety of different types of languages and they all have meaning.

All of them. All of them have meaning. And he clarifies that in verse 11, therefore if I don't know the meaning of the language,

I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. This is the problem of the Tower of Babel, right?

Prophet, no prophet, it's just a mess. Verse 12, even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

You're thinking about others, how to serve others, how to bless others, how to love others, you know, here's my weekly ecstatic performance, okay?

Verse 13, therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret, okay? For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful, okay?

So it's like, what's the point? It's unfruitful. What's the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit and I will also pray with the understanding.

There has to be an understanding to it. I will sing with the spirit, I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say amen at your giving of thanks since he does not understand what you say?

Paul's whole point is there ought not to be people in church services saying things that nobody understands.

He clearly states that in 1 Corinthians 14, the one place in the Bible where the information about speaking in tongues is most densely packed.

And this is where you go to understand what it means. And he's saying there has to be understanding, otherwise it's pointless. How can they agree with you?

That the uninformed person cannot say amen to what you are saying if they don't know what you're saying.

Exactly. So we've going through it and going through Acts in this text right here, we have chaos or coherence or order, or we have confusion or we have understanding.

And the only thing that we have ordering these things, which is right at the middle in Corinthians 13 is love.

Yes. Right, so whenever we see order come into the speaking in tongues in Acts in both cases, it's because someone is speaking in the spirit.

Love is present and it brings order to these situations. And then he says the same thing here as well.

And he's teaching them how to prepare to interpret through prayer and through a reliance on the spirit and in love, speaking or interpreting.

When we see the cacophonous stuff happening in American Christianity, what can we say the source is for that type of confusion?

Right, well, we know it's not the Holy Spirit, bingo. So, and that's the whole thing that they peg it on though, right?

Oh yeah. Yeah, so then we have a confusion about, so is this confusion just simply about tongues or is this a confusion about who the spirit is when it comes to, like at the root is what

I'm asking. The whole manifestation of the tongues controversy is a symptom, a symptom of not knowing who

God is, not knowing who the Holy Spirit is. Or that he is a person and not a force.

Right. That you just share or pass or impart to one another. And if it gets on you, then you'll have these experiences.

Yeah, well, even in your experience, you're not allowed to leave until you spoke in tongues. Was the spirit allowed to leave the room at that point?

For real. But no, that's. I totally understand what you're saying. But that's, this seems to be at root more of a confusion, just hearing you guys talk, more of a confusion about who the spirit is rather than a confusion about just languages in general.

Yeah, like Michael had said in the previous chapter, it says that the spirit is the one that gives the gifts according to his will.

Yes. And so if you tell people, everyone should speak in tongues, well, Paul says, does everyone speak in tongues?

As a negative, no. Not everyone heals, not everyone speaks in tongues, not everyone has. Different parts of the body.

Not everyone should be speaking in tongues. Now, Paul does say, I wish that all you did. What does he mean by that?

Because of the explosion of the gospel that occurred in times like that, the day of Pentecost, according to his household.

But, and Paul himself says in 1 Corinthians 14, 18, I thank my God that I speak with tongues more than you all.

And that makes a lot of sense, given where Paul went. He was always going this place and that place and everywhere and yet he tells them not to be children, not to be children in understanding, but to be mature in their understanding.

And in verse 21, he says, in the law, meaning in the instruction, because he quotes from Isaiah. Okay, so he's saying in the

Old Testament scriptures, what he means, verse 21, in the law it is written with men of other tongues and other lips, I will speak to this people and yet for all that, they will not hear me, says the

Lord. So in a passage where God is judging the covenant breakers of Israel, he is saying that the men of other tongues and other lips,

God will proclaim the gospel. Okay, and he says, and yet for all that, they will not hear me. So in the passage that is talking about a judgment upon Israel, there is actually a hope for the spread of the gospel in the new covenant to all these other nations, so that the

Jews themselves will be hardened and refuse to listen, even when the gospel of the Messiah is being preached to them from these

Gentiles. To go back to your previous question about was the same word for tongues used in the Genesis account in the

Septuagint? No, but lips was, which we also just saw here in this pass. Isaiah 28 is the passage he's quoting.

And so that's why Paul concludes in verse 22, therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers, but prophesying is not for unbelievers, but those who believe.

So let's put that in the context of what he says in Isaiah, right? Because I have heard this passage referenced before by cessationists and say, see, see, speaking in tongues is judgment of God.

Well, hold on a second. When you read the context of Isaiah, there is judgment upon covenant breakers.

It's actually a judgment of God upon the unbelieving Jews, okay? Tongues are, he says that tongues are a sign, not for those who believe, but to unbelievers.

Who's he talking about? People who don't believe. Yeah, very good, very good.

Nailed it. So he is not saying unbelievers in the sense of seekers of God who are, ooh, this is an interesting gathering.

I wanna hear more of this Jesus of Nazareth, not for them. It is a sign of judgment against the Jews. He's calling them the unbelievers in this context.

But prophesying is not for unbelievers, but for those who do believe. Now, a little bit later on, he's got two categories about those who are hearing the tongues, okay?

So verse 23, therefore, if the whole church comes together in one place and all speak with tongues and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, you see there's two categories?

And we've seen both of those previously in the chapter. Yes, exactly. Will they not say that you are out of your mind, right?

If everyone's just speaking in tongues, it's just chaos. Nobody's interpreting. That's not what Paul saw. That's not the sign. That is not the sign.

But if all prophesy and an unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all and he's convicted by all, okay?

And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed. And so falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you because there's hope in the new covenant of attorneying by the power of the

Holy Spirit from the unbelief or from your ignorance and trusting in Christ being proclaimed by this gospel.

In the Isaiah context, the sign of tongues is a sign that there's judgment upon the covenant -breaking

Jews, just like the initiation of the new covenant is a signal the old covenant's coming to an end, which is why

Peter preaches a sermon about judgment on the day of Pentecost. The day of the Lord is at hand,

Joel says, as the Spirit is filling all these people. The arrival of the new covenant, Peter says, signals the end of the old.

Thus he says, be safe from this wicked and perverse generation. You need to be safe from this generation because judgment's coming upon this generation.

So in this sense, the speaking of tongues, which is a sign of the Holy Spirit as the gospel's being proclaimed is a signal of judgment, a signal of judgment against certain unbelievers, but it's also, notice, in the grace of God, a means by which the gospel is being declared, if there are interpreters, so that people can understand, repent, and believe and be saved.

So that's the context of what Paul's saying about tongues. He says it, I guess, I don't know, 10 different ways.

There has to be interpretation, there has to be meaning, and these are actual languages.

So I'm guessing the normal charismatic reading of what you just went through is not squaring up with that necessarily.

With that assumption, looking back at verse 22, as we read over that, I was kind of seeing that, and if we don't think that the unbelievers are the

Jews there, but we just take unbelievers as a general category, that seems like something that could be easily abused to people within congregations who don't speak tongues, and they say, okay, you don't speak tongues, so it's a judgment, or it's a sign for you that you're an unbeliever, and because tongues is for believers.

Is that something that you find in charismatic circles, or do they have a different reading of that from what I'm seeing?

Saying that they need to speak in tongues because they are unbelievers. Well, or that other people speaking in tongues is a sign to them, and they're the ones not speaking in tongues.

Right. It's a sign to them that they're unbelievers. Yeah, you could use it as a category error, but again,

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, is not taking Isaiah 28 out of context. No. Right, so we gotta keep that in the context, and it's not a, speaking in tongues is not merely only a sign of judgment, because Paul goes on to say that it's actually part of the preaching of the gospel to the nations so that people would believe and turn to Christ in hope.

As we've seen already in the book of Acts, that's definitely what happens. So at this point, Paul, having established the meaning of the speaking of tongues and what the whole idea is and how it is biblical, indeed biblical, prophesied there in the

Old Testament, Isaiah 28, that all, now, how does it work when you come together as a church, in church service?

Yeah, well, and just previously, right, as you're about to get into, in verse 19, well, 18,

I think my God that I speak in tongues more than you all, you had mentioned he's traveling to all kinds of places, verse 19, yet in the church,

I would rather speak five words with understanding that I may teach others also than 10 ,000 words in a tongue.

So we see what the priority is, again. That's the priority, yeah. So we had a, I think we had a follow -up question kind of appended to this whole discussion, and if I get it right, someone can look it up, but I think the question was something along the lines of what would you do if someone spoke in tongues during a church service?

And no, we don't have a special staff member who's our linguist, Holy Spirit -filled interpreter. The question itself is interesting because it assumes, at some level, that it's something that that person controls, right, not as the

Spirit wills, but as this person wills. Oh, okay, so you mean like the true, a true gift is always at the gifting of the

Spirit. Absolutely, how did Jesus describe the Spirit? Like the wind, where he wants. Exactly, it's not a situation where you're like,

I have been gifted with this special gift, and therefore, this is on my resume permanently, and I can engage it anytime

I want to, which is what you were warning against, Chris, treating the Holy Spirit like a force or a substance.

And that kind of goes both ways, because in some, you'll hear it say, well, then you have that gift, so you just do it at will, but then there's the reverse that says, well,

I just couldn't help it. The Spirit came over me, and it just came out. Where the

Bible talks about this, what is it, the Spirit of the Prophets? The fruit of the Spirit is self -control. Self -control, and then also being subject to the

Spirit of the Prophets. Yes. Like they were uttered about, moved by the Spirit, but it's like God is using instruments.

They weren't completely overcome, and they don't just do it on their own. And he plays them perfectly. Right. Very good.

So what happens in church meetings? So in order to answer that question, how would we, well, 1

Corinthians 14, again, verse 26. How is it then, brethren, whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation.

Let all things be done for edification. I'm hearing all things be done for that, right? It's like Paul just keeps on saying this.

Of course, the problem in Corinth was they were all trying to edify themselves, and trying to build themselves up rather than each other.

Verse 27, if anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or three, at the most, three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

And I can just say just that verse alone would exclude so many of the churches, because there's more than three.

They're all speaking at the same time, and there's no interpretation. Three strikes, you're out.

You're out on all accounts there. And that's baseball. And often, and I haven't seen a lot of it, because it's rather disturbing to watch, but it's usually done on command.

You know, whoever's in charge tells everyone to start speaking in tongues. And that's clearly not biblical at all.

And of course, they don't speak in languages, genuine languages that they have not learned in order to preach the gospel to people in their own heart language.

They just, you know, they start stringing a bunch of phenoms together and begin to say babble.

So verse 28 says, but if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

Let two or three prophets speak. Let the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.

For you can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged. And the spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all the churches of the saints.

Now, as somebody who says, well, you're gonna point to 1 Corinthians 14 and say, you know, here's the order that you should be following from this early church.

That was just for Corinth. It was Corinth's issue. This instruction is not for the whole church, but just the situation in Corinth.

And this whole thing about, you know, two or three at the most and each in turn, each with an interpreter.

You don't expect us to follow that because you don't even follow the next thing about letting two or three prophets speak.

Let the others judge. Now I know in some Mennonite circles and so on, this is what they do. They'll have two or three people with a message and each in turn.

And of course, everything is subject to the other men in the group. But, you know, even in our church services in a more traditional

Baptist setting, we have a man get up to read the scriptures. Sometimes he'll say something along the lines of what the scripture has to say.

That is welcome. We have a man stand up to lead us in a Psalm and he has something to say about it.

And that is welcome. And then, you know, I get up and I preach a sermon, but you know what? If somebody listening to the scripture reader who has a little devotional thought and an exhortation that goes along with it, or someone listening to the music leader who has a devotional exhortation that goes along with it, they're all listening and saying, is that biblical?

Is that biblical? You know, is that in agreement with the Holy Spirit? And they should be doing the same thing when I get up there and preach, right?

Because if I get something wrong, I need to hear about it. And everyone needs to be wise Bereans, just like Paul said.

That's heresy, Patrick. Exactly, right? So we do actually follow that in 1

Corinthians 14. It may not look exactly like Corinth, but we are following that. And of course, the next thing says, let your women keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak, but they are to be submissive as the law also says.

And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? So out the window goes the uniqueness of the

Corinthian church. Well, yeah, but previously it says all the assemblies. Like this is done in all the assemblies. All the assemblies.

It says all the assemblies. So in this case, if there is, so first of all, there's a man who's prophesying or sharing something of the truth of God.

And he is subject to all the other ones who are in the church, okay? But it is not something where we have women getting up and exhorting and teaching and preaching and so on.

And neither are they in the group that is to hold the men accountable for what they say. But if she does have a concern, she caught something, then let her ask her husband at home.

And then he's gonna be like, you know what? I think you're right. Or I'm not sure, I'll have to go ask him, right?

It says order in the church, like there's an order in the home. Imagine that. And so, yes, of course, there's a lot of churches that say, ah, we don't need 1

Corinthians 14, we'll just do things our own way. That's not correct. And just to finish it up, at verse 39, it says, therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

Let all things be done decently and in order, okay? So I don't think you come away from that passage and say speaking in tongues is wrong, don't do it.

You don't come away saying speaking in tongues is unbiblical, don't do it. You come away saying, we sure have a lot of specific instruction about what it means to speak in tongues and as the spirit wills.

And we understand the purpose of it, we understand the content of it, the nature of it. And I rejoice that from time to time in the history of the church, as Christ is building his church, that people have heard the preaching of the gospel in their heart language from others who had never been equipped to do so.

But it's not according to the will of the saints, it's according to the will of the spirit. I think a couple verses real quick that come to mind.

So at the end of 1 Corinthians 14, and I've heard this in the debate between cessationists and charismatics.

In verse 39, therefore brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy and do not forbid. Well then the cessationists is kind of, well, they're forbidding the speaking of tongues.

But if you follow that up with, what did Paul just teach about tongues? And then verse 40, let all things be done decently and in order.

There's my criteria. Decently in order. Is tongues called for in this circumstance?

Is it being done biblically in the way that Paul outlines? Usually no. And so I don't have to deal with, well,

I'm not forbidding speaking in tongues, I'm forbidding doing something that isn't tongues. Yes, amen.

So Paul's whole point in 1 Corinthians 14 is that by doing things in proper order, that's not the main goal.

The main goal is to edify. But if you don't have things in proper order, then you won't be able to edify each other. And so if somebody stands up in the middle of a service and starts, you know, says about economy

Honda or something strange, then you would say you're out of order, right?

Right. If someone's, so is there an interpretation of that? Was it your turn to go or was it in the middle of somebody else talking, right?

Because 1 Corinthians 14 says don't do that, each in his turn. It actually says in the text, if someone else is talking, you be silent.

Yeah. You know, so there's proper order there. But if someone stands up and tries to do this vain babble thing and ecstatic utterance of some kind, then you say, is there an interpreter?

No, then you're out of order. Then you should be quiet and speak to yourself and to God. In Matthew 6, 7,

Jesus is talking and he says, and when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

And that's the same type of thing. It's just kind of this, when you hear people who are practicing what they call speaking in tongues, it's just this continuing babbling that goes on and on.

Often sounds very circular, saying the same thing. Yeah. But with no meaning.

Almost like an Eastern chant. Like it's a mantra of some kind. So for somebody, again, who has not had many touch points in this area, we would say that they struggle with the first, you know, one through 33 verses there on keeping stuff in order, as Paul has it written down in the

American church. So how often do we see the following two verses after that in those churches?

Talking about letting your women keep silent in churches. So since they have trouble with the first 33 there verses, do they also skew the other two there in those churches?

Or is it kind of like, is it, how often does that occur? You're right, it's quite often also those two as well.

It's traditional in the Pentecostal charismatic movement to platform women very much so as authorities in the church.

There's no distinction. So it's kind of like, it's almost like a logical conclusion. If you mess up on the former, you're going to have trouble with the latter.

Right, well, and specifically, when you get to that specific part, he's the most shameful for women to speak in church.

And he presses that issue hard. He says, or did the word of God come originally from you?

Or was it only to you that it was reached? And then he says, if anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge the things that I write.

If you disagree with me, you're not a prophet. If you disagree with me, you're not spiritual. You're not mature.

So he presses that even harder. And Young's literal translation goes on to say, if anyone is ignorant, let them be ignorant.

So they are literally choosing the latter, let them be ignorant. Yeah, so we don't have to be ignorant though.

Exactly. With all this instruction so plainly put before us. And I think that in the other passages in the

New Testament that says to discern the spirits, that we would do so by the

Holy Spirit and this clear instruction that he's provided for us. The Holy Spirit who said all these things in 1

Corinthians 14 is not going to then be a God of chaos and then cause all sorts of things contrary to his word.

It is not the will of God to empower things and to actively do things that are contrary to his word.

So he's not going to be causing this chaos that we see so often in the charismatic church.

And I think a good point is to be made is there's no need to then swing a pendulum and come up with a system of doctrine that says, well, nobody gets healed anymore.

Nobody gets a word of knowledge anymore at all because that would be Holy Scripture. That's not what it means.

Nobody has insight and wisdom from God in a particular moment when you come to realize, oh,

I think I know what's going on here. And then nobody speaks in a tongue that they've never learned before for the good of the spread of the gospel.

There's no need to say, okay, all of that's out. So all we have, there is a real critique that is made against cessationists.

For people who say that they're relying on the word of God, you're not relying on the word of God to make this claim.

Okay, it's a genuine critique. That's ultimately what changed my mind. Because they're like, look, does it say that?

Right, yeah, you can't say that. It does not say that in the text. And God is free to act as he wills, but it's as he wills, not as what we think it ought to look like.

Well, I think we have thoroughly answered that to at least our satisfaction. So we can move on to what do we recommend for this week,

Michael? So I don't agree with everything written in the book, but I think it's an interesting look. A Strange Fire by John MacArthur, a series of chapters in which, in some ways he does swing the pendulum all the way to the cessationist side of things.

But some of the ways in which he deals with the information is helpful, and a lot of content, a lot of scripture is used to talk about these situations.

And he does bring to the fore charismatic claims that are not properly challenged by those who are called continuationists, who maybe have a more modified position from Pentecostals or charismatics.

But even sometimes, one of the main critiques that John MacArthur had was that some folks in the continuationist camp do not properly and biblically critique those who are really going off the deep end in so many different ways.

And so I think it's an emphasis that needs to be had. And I think that there are other resources like Justin Peters and others who can be helpful in that area.

Amen. Chris, what's your recommendation this week? I would recommend, and again, this is just for the sake of discussion.

Ultimately, you want to go to scripture and see what it has to say. But the conference, the Strange Fire conference itself,

I think did a wonderful job of pointing out who is the Holy Spirit.

And there's different sections, different preachers who are talking on different abuses or what the Bible says about the

Spirit. And so I think that that conference was very helpful. Obviously, there's things that I think maybe they miscategorized or they put things in the wrong categories.

I think there's one where they're like, post -millennialism? No, that's all charismatic. It's like, well, I don't know. But I found it very helpful in my journey and kind of looking into these things.

Okay, Andrew? I may have recommended this previously, but Counterfeit Revival by Hank Hanegraaff is really just a post -mortem.

It was written back in the early 2000s. It was a post -mortem of the Brownsville slash Pensacola revival that kind of goes into what was happening behind the scenes, what was actually being said and done by the people that it wasn't in the context of the congregation, but even things that were being said behind the pulpit and things like that.

There are people that are associated with that timeframe, like Michael Brown is a name on the charismatic side of the house, that very popular teacher that you might hear about.

But anyway, so this is a narrative or a discussion about what actually was happening during that timeframe.

It's by Hank Hanegraaff. I don't know if I said that, but I found it to be very helpful because like I was saying previously,

I came from a charismatic background. And so it helped to fill in the blank spots about what was actually happening because I remember my mother talking about, we've got to go down there.

There's a move of the spirit and very interesting look at it. And you said that's the

Brownsville? Brownsville, yeah, Pensacola revival. Do you know if he or any of the resources on the

Azusa Street revival? I mean, I know exactly what you're talking about, but that's not, if there is something about it, it's like maybe like the origins of why this was happening.

Yeah. My recommendation for this week is do the reading before you argue about it.

Recently, I see a lot of hubbub about the case for Christian nationalism by Stephen Wolfe.

And I still don't get involved in the argumentation because it's just a whole lot of confusion, but I thought

I might as well listen to it and I might pick it up and read it eventually, but definitely entering like confusing conversations like that as Christians.

And we want to discuss it with other brothers without more heat than light. We want to avoid most of the heat.

I think we have to take people at their word when they say things and not assume a lot of stuff that we haven't actually read them say in their own words.

So I would say if you have any confusion about the position, especially coming from the two kingdoms, kind of classical reformed background, definitely he's gripping a lot of the stuff that was held to in history and pulling it forward and trying to make a case for it in the current context.

And I found it at least helpful in understanding where his position is and what he's trying to say and what he's trying to tell us.

So that's the case for Christian nationalism by Stephen Wolfe. We'll move on to what are we thankful for, Michael?

I am thankful for the oak tree in the front lawn of where we live. I'm thankful that God has sustained it these many decades and that even though the terrible ice storm of 2019 took away a lot of its branches, it's making a great comeback.

And thankful for the oak tree, I'm thankful for its shade, thankful for the lawn furniture beneath it and my family who

I get to sit with beneath on a regular basis. That thing really is growing into a behemoth.

It is large. Yeah, yeah. And this despite efforts from individuals that we know trimming back the branches.

Oh yeah. Did they do it without ladders and harnesses that time too? Have you ever seen 75 year old men clambering around in the upper boughs of an oak tree cutting and hacking like wild men?

But I'm still thankful for the oak tree. They know who they are. Yes, they know who they are. Chris, what about you?

I am extremely grateful for my wife. This is past week, nothing's specific.

I can just remember being so thankful for being married that there's this person in my life that likes me and isn't going anywhere.

She's kind of stuck now, but - We got those kids. So, but I just think it's fantastic.

And I was thanking God for marriage in general and for specifically giving me this woman that is a helper to me.

And I'm very grateful for her. Amen, Andrew. You know, I was listening to some podcasts previously catching up on some things.

You know, Chris, I've heard you say something along those lines many different times. You're very thankful for her.

And it made me to reflect upon, you know, do I talk about, how many times have I actually said

I am thankful for my wife? I'm going through a season in life where I really need a lot of her help with the kids to enable me to continue in my studies.

I don't know what I would do without her. I thank God for the helpmate that I have found a good thing.

And I thank God for her. Amen. Well, I don't know how you guys feel, but I don't currently live in the castle that I want to hand off to my children.

And I feel that all the time. I know my wife feels it all the time. My kids have no idea it's their castle.

They think it's great, but eventually I'd like to upgrade, but I'm extremely thankful. And I have been most recently for the abode that he's given us to stay in, the shelter that we've been given, the spot we've been given to learn to steward.

Because, I mean, we talk about stewarding things well, stewarding them for the

Lord. And I look around and I'm like, I'm not doing it well. And I'm not, there are so many shortfalls, so many pitfalls that I've made along the way, just out of ignorance and not knowing what to do with certain things.

But learning and slowly plodding along to make things better. I'm thankful for every inch of that ground that he's given to me to live on, to raise my children on, and to love my wife with on.

So we are extremely blessed there and we are very thankful for it. And that wraps it up for today.

We are very thankful for our listeners and hope you will join us again as we meet to answer common questions and objections with Have You Not Read.