Voddie Baucham: It's Not Like Being Black

Conversations That Matter

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00:01

Hey, everyone, we are live now on the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris, with Bodie Bauckham.

00:08

How you doing, Bodie? Man, I'm doing better than I deserve, brother. How about yourself? Praise God.

00:15

Doing okay, though. My wife's getting close to having a baby. And I just, it's our first.

00:22

So it's like this needs to be on and that needs to be on. I was just talking with her before we started recording.

00:28

And by the way, it's 10 minutes later. I know everyone's probably gonna jump in the chat and be like, where were you?

00:33

I forgot. And part of it is I'm like running around trying to figure all this out. We're doing a home birth too.

00:39

Can you believe that? I don't know what I'm getting into. But anyway, things are going well.

00:45

It's always a good thing when someone's having a baby. We're here though to talk about your book.

00:50

And so I just wanna kind of jump into it because I think this is such an important topic and it is still

00:58

June. It is still Pride Month, quote unquote. Let me ask you, this is outside the book first, but in Zambia, is

01:05

Pride Month celebrated at all? I'm curious. No, no, no, there are no parades here.

01:15

There are no companies jumping on the Pride bandwagon and changing their logos.

01:21

And I'm sure somebody somewhere is doing some of that.

01:26

But as far as the broader public, no, that's not a thing.

01:35

I didn't think so. And it's Zambia technically, it's Christian, right? Yeah, and it's illegal.

01:41

I mean, homosexuality is illegal. So yeah, but there are groups that are very vocal here and also the

01:49

UN. Most African nations are very closely tied and linked to the

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UN and get money internationally and depend on that money internationally.

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And so there are a lot of strings that are pulled in that regard. So a lot of times people don't go even as far as they would in opposing something like the

02:14

Pride Month stuff. But by and large, no, it's not happening here.

02:21

So that's interesting to me because your book, like if you were sitting where I'm sitting and you wrote this book and people knew who you were, there would be opposition.

02:31

And I would imagine you're probably more supported by the culture there. They like what you're doing.

02:37

But here in the United States, it's now so taboo. And you probably feel that when you come back that it's just so different than what you remember.

02:45

Yeah, well, you know, I just left. I was just there a little over a week ago. I finished kind of a book tour.

02:54

The book came out on the 4th. So I was there for a couple of weeks before that. And interestingly enough, there was a ton of support.

03:04

And the reason there's a ton of support is because everybody sees what you're talking about. Everybody sees how far things have gone, how crazy things have gotten.

03:15

Again, people use the term clown world, right? And people recognize that it's clown world out there.

03:23

And so there was overwhelming support. Now, the real difficulty though is getting the book in stores right now.

03:31

Right, right. Because of Pride Month and all that, you know. We went to a couple of stores before we left and asked for it.

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And, you know, they had to go look on the computer and, oh yeah, it looks like we're gonna get one.

03:49

But yeah. Right. So people have been ordering it, but that's kind of the only way you can find it right now.

03:55

Just a couple of places that wouldn't carry it. Well, the name of the book, because I don't think I mentioned the title, it's called,

04:00

It's Not Like Being Black, How Sexual Activists Hijacked the Civil Rights Movement. You can get it online at itsnotlikebeingblack .com.

04:09

But I know people can go to Amazon. Where do you want people to go? Yeah, anywhere. Anywhere they buy books online, you know.

04:16

I know that, and that's another thing. It's interesting, you know, you mentioned me being here in Lusaka.

04:23

And a lot of times I'll post things and I'll tell people to go here or do that.

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And don't get upset with me because you're not supposed to do that, you know. And I know there are a lot of people upset with me.

04:35

Why are you sending people to Amazon? Oh my God. I don't know. Yeah.

04:42

But anywhere that people buy books online is fine. Okay, all right. So people can go check that out at Amazon or itsnotlikebeingblack .com.

04:51

Well, let's start here, because obviously the first question you're always supposed to ask an author is why did you write it?

04:56

So why did you write it? I think you kind of answered it, but maybe go into a little more detail. It's interesting,

05:02

John. I started using a version of this title back in 2007, 2008.

05:09

And back then you'll remember Proposition 8 in California. Yes. On protecting marriage, defining marriage.

05:17

And everybody thought that California would be sort of the first major domino to fall in moving towards same -sex marriage.

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And, you know, Hollywood was in full swing, the corporate world, all the big

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California corporations and Google and Apple and, you know, everybody else in Silicon Valley, they were all putting, you know, millions and millions behind it and they lost.

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And it was a shock. And when the numbers came out, it was mainly black voters,

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Hispanic voters, you know, overwhelmingly being in support of traditional marriage. Well, The Advocate, the leading gay magazine came out with a big cover article.

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And the magazine cover was just a black cover with big white letters.

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And it was gay is the new black. And they really put forward that argument that this push for same -sex marriage, as they wanna call it, or for marriage equality, as they wanna call it, was really the last thrust or the next big thrust in the civil rights movement.

06:34

And they were just overt about it. So I started writing articles and, you know, doing messages, basically, gay is not the new black or it's not like being black.

06:44

So I've been using this title since then. Well, then a couple of years later, somewhere between 2010, 2012,

06:51

I wrote a book proposal and a couple of sample chapters for a book by this title, It's Not Like Being Black.

06:57

My literary agent sent it to all the big Christian publishers and it was rejected.

07:04

Again, by then, I was a known commodity. My best -selling book before Fault Lines, which went crazy, right?

07:12

My best -selling book was Family, Gender, and Faith, which came out in 2007. So I was a known entity.

07:19

And I got an email from my literary agent. He said, don't look at the rejection, look at the timestamp.

07:24

And he had sent this thing in, full proposal, it's like a 15, 20 page proposal, plus two sample chapters.

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And the rejection had come back like less than 30 minutes after the email was sent, which means they didn't even look at it.

07:42

It was just like, no, no thank you. That was pre -Obergefell. And so now we come back in a post -Obergefell world,

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Obergefell's 2015. So I'm writing this book, sort of in that whole vein, but from a different perspective, looking backwards, as opposed to looking forward and warning people, looking backward and showing the implications of it and warning about what's coming.

08:10

Yeah, I mean, it's a timely book. I think it's funny because my wife was commenting to me the other day that it seems like this year, the

08:20

Pride Month stuff is not as prevalent as it was in the last two years. I think it's, this is my theory because of the protests on college campuses, the

08:28

Israel -Palestine thing. I think that sucked a lot of the activists out, but it is normalized so that like you're used to,

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I think that's what's also happening. Like I'm used to seeing trans flags or pride flags and it doesn't do it.

08:43

Like when it first started happening, I thought what's going on? So there's two things going on there. And next year, if we don't have the

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Palestine stuff, then we'll probably will have another, there's a parade in the town over from me for it.

08:56

And so Christians are exposed to this. Their children are still, they're seeing, especially if they're in school, they're seeing this. And -

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I think there's something else at play though. What's that? I think they've gone too far.

09:08

Okay. I think there's a backlash now and the pendulum is swinging in the other direction. And I think -

09:14

I think you're right. But listen, when you start messing with kids and you start hearing from the detransitioners and the

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WPATH papers, the WPATH files come out and we see that the medical establishment has been lying and they've been basically abusing and committing medical malpractice and all of this gender affirming care, puberty blockers with kids, seven, eight years old, pornographic books in schools.

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I think they just overplayed their hand and people have gotten fed up.

09:51

They're sick and tired of it. And I think that is playing a part in this as well. I think also,

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I think also most Christians, I used to say sort of jokingly, every Christian needs to go to a pride parade.

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But what I mean by that is when you see pride parade stuff on the news, you're seeing a sanitized version of what goes on at a pride event.

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These things are Sodom and Gomorrah on steroids. They're horrific.

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It's debauchery. Anyway, I just, it's horrific.

10:29

Well, I wanna talk about that. Yeah, so in your book, you actually go into detail on some of this stuff, which in ways that I found surprising for a

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Christian author because I think we sanitize too in our, even my podcast.

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I don't want profanity, right? I don't want people to hear. I wanna protect them from that, which I suppose is a good instinct.

10:49

But at some point, I think you're right. We need to know this is sodomy. Let's describe what's going on, what they're celebrating.

10:56

And you do that and then some. You talk about what Kinsey was doing, how we arrived at the place we are where we're celebrating this.

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So maybe talk about that first, because I think it's so important for Christians to understand that we need to be exposed to this.

11:12

What's your, what motivated you to put some of that more explicit stuff in the book and how do you want that used?

11:20

Yeah, so people just don't know. They're not aware. And I wrestled with this in Ephesians 5.

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We don't participate in the deeds of darkness, but we expose them, right? And I tried to sort of play that balance of we need to expose this.

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But like you said, we need to protect. We can't, you know. There's a difference between being frank and honest about something and being overindulgent.

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And so I just try to be frank and honest about what's going on because people don't know.

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But the other thing is, if you don't understand Kinsey and you don't understand John Money, then you don't understand how we got here.

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And you need to understand not only the work that they did, but you need to understand the kind of men that they were.

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You need to understand what their goals were and what their worldviews were in order to understand how

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Kinsey. Kinsey and his work gives us the idea that Christian morality is a facade.

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That's not how people are. Human sexuality, the norm is more kink, if you will.

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And of course his research was completely fraudulent. Not only was it fraudulent, but it was based on the sexual abuse of children as young as four months old.

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And the reason that that's important is because Kinsey's the one who gives us this idea that children are sexual from birth, right?

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And there's a couple of things that come from that. The push to do sex education earlier and earlier, that's

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Kinsey. Also this idea that people say, well, I knew I was gay from the time

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I was a child, right? That's Kinsey. You weren't sexual when you were that age.

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You weren't thinking about your sexuality when you were that age. But now later on, you've gotten involved in this lifestyle somehow, and you're reading back through the lens of Kinsey, and you're saying,

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I knew this my whole life. You may have been effeminate as a man.

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As a boy, you may have been less masculine than other boys. And of course, people pointed that out to you.

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You put that with a little Kinsey and you get, I knew I was gay my whole life. So money, on the other hand, gives us this experimentation that leads to the normalization of the trans movement.

14:00

So these things are important for us to know. So it really is as simple as they just wanna diddle kids.

14:05

Like it really does come down to, they're just pervs. This isn't about any civil rights or anything.

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So I remember maybe 15 years ago, 10 years ago, you probably remember this.

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It still happens. Like people say what you just said, like I was born this way. I can't change it.

14:24

I've always felt this way. I don't hear as much of that now, I've noticed. It seems like that argument was meant to break down our standards.

14:34

And that's where the whole new black thing I think comes from is like, that's intrinsic, so is this. We're both intrinsic qualities and they're being discriminated against.

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But now I hear, especially Zoomers, they just don't, they wake up in the morning and they're like, I think I'm a fairy today.

14:47

And I like this particular thing. And I don't know like what to make of that other than maybe it just comes down to, we just wanna do perverted things and we'll use any argument to get there.

14:59

Is that cynical or is that true? No, it's true, but that's where queer theory comes in.

15:05

So queer identity, it cuts against the grain of the

15:14

L and the G, right? So I got two chapters on the acronym. I can't just, so much to deal with with the acronym, but it's completely inconsistent and incoherent.

15:25

And what's happening is a progression and you just described it. So you get the L's and the G's and they've been arguing, lesbians and gays, for a long time that this is biology, right?

15:35

They've been doing gene studies, pheromone studies, brain studies, all these different studies to try to prove that this is biological.

15:43

We were born this way. It's as innate as race or ethnicity, right? Well, then the

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T's come along and the T's say biology is nothing. And again, they're still part of the acronym.

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And the T's say biology is nothing, but I'm this, but I'm a man,

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I'm born a woman, but my sex assigned at birth was this or whatever. Well, the

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Q's come along and the Q's say, none of that has any meaning. There is no essential truth when it comes to your sexual identity or anything else.

16:26

Your biology doesn't matter. None of that matters. There is no essential truth.

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And so that's where you get this sort of just multiplicity of sexualities and identities and everything else with everybody trying to outdo each other.

16:44

And again, the thing that holds it together though is that this is rooted in that same neo -Marxist ideology.

16:50

This is the critical social justice movement. It's just the next box car in that train.

16:56

It's all connected. And it is about breaking down kind of like a

17:02

Western Christian male hegemony ultimately. That's the bad villain and we need to destroy that.

17:08

One of the things that I found fascinating about your book is you brought up MLK. Like I was actually expecting, well, maybe not from you, but with a title like that,

17:19

I thought, this is gonna be another one of those like civil rights movements, so totally different that they're almost in conflict.

17:28

And obviously there's differences and you point some of those out, but there's a chapter or a section

17:34

I should say called the Civil Rights Movement. And let me just read something you say. You said, when

17:39

I first set out to write the book, I was convinced that the gay movement of the 80s, 90s was engaging in strategy to hijack the civil rights movement of the 50s, 60s.

17:48

Then I stumbled upon Bayard Rustin, who said today blacks are no longer the litmus paper or the barometer of societal change.

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Blacks are in every segment of society. There are laws to help to protect them from discrimination. The new

18:03

N -words are gays. It is in this sense that gay people are the new barometer for social change. The question of social change should be framed with the most vulnerable group in mind, gay people.

18:13

And then you go on to say, Rustin was communist party member, American socialist party. He went to India in the 40s to study

18:19

Gandhi. He later met MLK in the 50s, mentored him. So like totally connected to MLK.

18:27

He was a speech writer. Right. And one of the leaders behind the March on Washington, yeah. Right, right.

18:34

I mean, you don't get any more connected than that to the civil rights movement. And he was an openly gay man who was arrested in the 1950s for sexual lewdness in the state of California.

18:47

And then Stanley Levinson's another guy you bring up, who very, he was a ghostwriter for MLK, an advisor.

18:55

And these guys totally on board with the LGBT normalization and very self -consciously aware of the fact that that's where we're going, even in the 50s.

19:08

Yep. I found that a little bit mind -blowing because you're always told that there's such a disconnect and you're saying there really isn't as big of a disconnect at least as we're used to thinking.

19:18

I don't know if you wanna share maybe why you felt compelled to include that and especially going after MLK which is kind of taboo.

19:28

Yeah. I don't know. I just felt like I didn't have enough conflict in my life. Ha! I just, listen, like I said,

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I've been reading and writing about this and dealing with this for a long time and turning over different stones related to this for a long time.

19:51

I was in the documentary, Uncle Tom 2 and in working with those guys, we were talking about a lot of these things, a lot of sort of civil rights stuff.

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And I think it's during my time of working with those guys, they came, they traveled with me for like a week and a half.

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And so I got to know them very well and we were just digging into all of this stuff.

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And that's when we kind of unearthed some of these connections.

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And it just, it made so much sense. It just made so much sense.

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A lot of the leaders in the Harlem Renaissance were open or closeted homosexuals.

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And it was big. It was a big, it was a thing. And everybody on the inside was aware of it.

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And if they have that, or had, I should say, because it's past tense now, that organization that came from the civil rights movement, they were set up.

20:48

I mean, they were just ready to go with this. It's not like they lacked resources. And you know -

20:54

Well, there were a lot of Black lesbian movements too. Yeah. That were alongside the civil rights movement and basically arguing that Black women were being left out and that Black lesbians were being left out.

21:08

I think I've heard you talk about a couple of these groups. The Combahee River Collective Statement was, that's where we get the term identity politics.

21:15

That was Black lesbians. Yes. And then Black Lives Matter come around. And what's that, right?

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That's like the modern Combahee. I mean, it's just, it's there, man. It's there.

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It's been there for a long time. And I didn't spend too much time on that because,

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I mean, you could really get in the weeds. That could be a whole nother book. But I thought it was important to at least bring that up.

21:42

Yeah, and I know that. I know, because, yeah, obviously I read the book and that was a smaller section, but I just thought it was unique and made you stand out.

21:51

I wanna get to more things in your book, but I also wanna get to questions that listeners might have. So there's someone in the private chat now, so you can't see it, but I'll read it.

22:00

This is one of the patrons. And by the way, I see Lynn, I see SLE. You guys, if you wanna turn your cameras on,

22:07

I will come to you and let you ask a question to Vodi. But Carl Anderson says, I wanted to preface my question like this, concerning having conversations with Christian brothers and sisters with different theological and political views, especially men in ministry office or doing ministry training,

22:22

I have found that there are many different camps within American Christianity that have their own orthodoxy revolving around hermeneutics, doctrines, et cetera.

22:31

An example, I was saved in a non -denominational Armenian dispensational congregation. I was taught that other

22:37

Christians, and now, I don't know where the question is. Oh, he's saying, let me finish. All right, I'm gonna, oh,

22:43

Carl, he's put his camera on. Okay, Carl, I didn't realize you were there, sorry. You wanna finish that question for Vodi that I was reading?

22:50

Yeah, well, my preface was that, I'm trying to engage with other Christians and kind of thinking about how, whenever I engage with guys, different camps of Christianity kind of have their own orthodoxy for like,

23:03

I was trying to type out like the non -denominational Armenian dispensational, like if you say

23:08

Israel isn't, is now brought into, the Gentiles and Israel come together, and that now there's just one body, and that they say like, oh, we're placed with theology.

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And that's used to push people away. Like they have a camp, they have like a means of defending orthodoxy and defending their views, say, oh, you must not be conservative, you don't hold to the

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Bible, it's literal. And so they have like, every camp has ways of trying to defend their own doctrines, their own hermeneutics.

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It's like, you know, I went from like that to like Acts 29, the gospel collision, and then the COVID happened.

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And so I'm engaging with a brother who's kind of gone through the same journey. And he's kind of fallen into a lot of the gospel collision,

23:52

Acts 29, like the syncretism with the culture and accepting a lot of their ideas about COVID, the government being for you and doing good things, and like having disagreements with him over COVID and social justice.

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And we've been dealing with a brother who's a pastor and friend of mine at my church, and trying to have conversations and engage with them in topics of culture.

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Like we're talking about here with homosexuality and transgenderism, and trying to think through a lot of these issues, the statism, and -

24:26

Is the question, Carl, how do you think, how do you approach Christians who have these - Yeah, like, yeah, cause like, you know, we're dealing with a brother who is accusing other

24:34

Christian brothers as being racist and being kinists. I see. And right, and trying to have those conversations, like actually listening to other

24:42

Christians, listening to the other side, engage. And I've realized like a lot of Christian camps have ways to make you feel guilty, and then you use guilt to not let you engage with other

24:51

Christians or other ideas. And so, you know, with you dealing with fault lines and trying to engage with Christians, like, hey, this is what's happening, and the way the world's coming into Christianity and coming to the church.

25:07

Oh, I'm just curious if you had conversations with other Christian pastors, ministers, who are holding, who are kind of falling into the

25:13

BLM stuff, falling into a lot of those narratives. And how do you get them to like, to not have a moral response, like a guilt response?

25:23

Dismiss you right away? Dismiss you right away. Guys, to get into the conversation. I'm gonna mute you, cause you're kind of in a, there we go.

25:31

Thanks, Carl. I appreciate that. So Voti, what do you, have you had conversations?

25:37

I'm sure you've had a lot of conversations. You know what? Unfortunately, I haven't had a lot of conversations.

25:44

Really? Because quite frankly, people won't talk to me. You know, they dismiss me.

25:54

One pastor friend of mine, you know, you may know, you know, Tom Buck, right? Yep. Tom Buck had one of these high profile, big

26:03

Eva leaders in his home, who said to him, you know, on the

26:08

Black Lives Matter stuff and all this, you know, and Fault Lines came out, Voti's voice is irrelevant on these issues.

26:16

In no uncertain terms, right? Voti's voice is irrelevant on these issues. There are people, you know, when

26:23

Fault Lines came out, they dismissed it and trashed it and said, I'm not even gonna read it, you know?

26:30

And so people are not engaging. They're very dismissive. And I was watching

26:36

Tom Askell. I was watching Sword in the Trial when Megan Basham was on talking about, you know, her new book that's coming out, which by the way, bombshell.

26:47

Like that's, you know, I mean, yeah, bombshell. That thing right there, when

26:54

I got the advanced copy to write a blurb for that, I couldn't put it down. It's, yeah.

27:00

But anyway, she was on there being interviewed and she talked about her time at World Magazine and just in passing mentioned the fact that, you know, when she brought up my name there, they didn't want her to interview me.

27:14

So yeah, for the most part, I don't get to engage in those conversations. I am persona non grata, you know, one of the candidates for the presidency and the

27:28

SBC, when my name was just mentioned, you know, the Baptist Papers went to work writing hit pieces, just terrible, awful things.

27:39

Well, he came out and defended me and powers that be in the SBC actually came to him privately telling them that he needed to back away from me.

27:52

So yeah, man, it's been crazy. I have my friends and my brothers and, you know, you know, my hands are open to everyone.

28:05

I'm not politicking. I try to be truthful.

28:11

I try to be gracious, but I, you know, I'm just, I don't get to have many conversations.

28:19

That's discouraging to hear because I thought someone with your status and I mean, they all talk about wanting black voices.

28:27

So I thought maybe that would also help you a little but apparently not. Not mine. Because, and here's what exposes them.

28:35

They don't consider mine to be an authentic black voice. Right. Which is incredibly racist to say, right?

28:45

Yeah. I've had the experience, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't matter. If I'm not coming at it from this neo -Marxist, you know, oppressor oppressed paradigm, if I'm not seeing myself as an oppressor, if I'm not seeing, you know, racism is the root of everything, then my voice is not considered an authentic black voice, which is the epitome of racism.

29:10

Yeah. Well, I want to get back a little bit to the topic of your book. Thank you for sharing that. There's a number of questions though that actually, and some of these are related.

29:20

So Chasta Elaine says, how do we as Christian parents reach our trans children?

29:27

My heart is broken over this issue. And oh man, I get messages, I'm sure you do quite regularly from parents in these situations.

29:37

What do you tell them? Yeah, especially now, because listen, we're dealing with a social contagion.

29:43

And that's the first thing. We need to recognize that we're dealing with a social contagion. We are raising this, you know, generation of children whose exposure to social media is,

30:00

I mean, it's ubiquitous, it's everywhere. And then a lot of people are sending them to government schools where they're being just bombarded with these ideas, even in some of our private schools where they're being bombarded with some of these ideas.

30:14

And then you have this whole, you know, Abigail Schreier in Irreversible Damage really did a masterful job of pointing out this social contagion that's happening.

30:26

So I think the first thing we have to do is we have to recognize that we're dealing with a social contagion. I think in light of that, we have to protect our children, right?

30:35

We've got to recognize that there are people out there who intend to do them harm.

30:42

And again, I hate to say that, you know, but there are, there are people out there who intend to do our children harm.

30:50

And the state of California is just passing laws against schools having to inform parents when their children are declaring these identities, right?

31:03

So you got kids who are, you know, in school with, and this is a problem when kids are identifying themselves as this or experiencing this, you know, whatever, gender identity disorder.

31:20

I know they changed it to gender dysphoria or whatever. You know, when they're experiencing this, they're being harmed by this gender affirming care.

31:27

So we have to recognize that. And we have to recognize that we have to protect our children from that.

31:33

We also, when we do that, we have to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, because there are some people who have lost custody of their children because of opposing this gender affirming care stuff.

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So you got to deal with all of that before you get to the parental pastoral of, now let's sit down and talk with this child about the

31:57

God who made them, the God who made them male or female, the beauty in our maleness and our femaleness as image bearers, the beauty of, you know, the design of men and women and the purpose of it, and, you know, marriage and children and so on and so forth.

32:17

So eventually we get there, right, to the pastoral stuff. But before we get there, we got to deal with all of that other stuff to protect our children and allow us to have those kinds of pastoral parental conversations.

32:33

Avody, I'm curious, you mentioned California. Have you heard of Jillian Michaels? Does that name ring a bell to you at all? Yep, yep.

32:38

Okay, did you see the clip recently? You did, okay. So for those who haven't seen it, she is super liberal.

32:45

She moved out of California because California is crazy and they're trying to trans the kids. And then she says, well,

32:51

I don't mind if my daughter wants to be a boy some days. I just don't want them forcing medical, you know, procedures that would change that forever.

33:03

So I just thought it was great. That's what I meant earlier. That's what I meant earlier when I said they've overplayed their hand.

33:09

When Jillian Michaels, right? Lesbian, I think she's gay married and all this.

33:17

I mean, she's like all the way there. When you've gone too far for her, brother, you've gone far.

33:24

Yeah, yeah. And now she, I don't know where she's moving, but it's like, man, please don't send your liberals to our state, right?

33:32

Carl Andrews. She's probably going to Austin. Yeah, actually, yes. And there's, yeah, that's a whole nother story.

33:39

I'd love to talk about. But anyway, there's in the private chat, Carl Anderson has a question with, so we're kind of playing a little ping pong here.

33:47

We're going back to the conversations or lack thereof you've had with other Christian leaders. This seems to be a theme that people are, because probably in their own personal lives are exploring this with friends who were, you know, in that big tent, you remember it,

34:00

TGC and all. And now that's split up. He says, with being dismissed, did you call out some of the responses as sinful and try to reach reconciliation?

34:10

Or did they try to reach reconciliation? Did you get to some level of Christian fellowship before walking away?

34:18

I am concerned, it says about Christian unity in battling the ungodly culture and issues assaulting us and when to walk away from relationships.

34:25

So I think that's behind that question. Yeah, what's interesting is, you know, we moved here in 2015.

34:33

I was part of the council, the Gospel Coalition Council for a couple of years.

34:41

And it became evident to me somewhere around 2000.

34:48

Well, I'll tell you what, it was Michael Brown. It was after the Michael Brown incident, when

34:54

I spoke out and I actually wrote an article that like shut down TGC's website.

35:03

You know? Yeah, I remember that. And basically they asked me for that article because they had some other writers that were writing from the woke, you know, perspective on all this stuff.

35:16

And they were really starting to, you know, pump out these articles, you know, basically

35:22

CRT, you know. And so they asked me and so I did.

35:27

I wrote that article. And the divide was evident at that point.

35:41

I forget exactly when that was. Yeah, it was like 2015, I think.

35:48

It was earlier than that because we moved in 2015. Oh, 2014. So yeah, it was earlier than that because we moved in 2015.

35:56

And when we moved here to be a part of the Gospel Coalition, you have to be in North America.

36:03

Yeah. So essentially I was now no longer a part of the Gospel Coalition.

36:10

And there were a lot of people who were very happy about that. How convenient for them, yes. Yeah, yeah.

36:15

There were a lot of people. And then some of the panels that I was able to serve on during that time, we kind of got into, you know, to some of this stuff there.

36:25

It was by the time I moved, it was evident that I was not at home there.

36:35

But no, we didn't, yeah. What folks like Carl are dealing with, and I mean, I've dealt with this in my own life too,

36:41

I think it's more just that like, hey, we were there, wasn't that real? How come you're over there now and you won't talk to me?

36:49

And there's like a process that you go through. I know I've had to go through it of realizing, okay, that was,

36:56

I thought that was the same thing, but it wasn't. What they were doing, unless they come out from it, right?

37:01

But if they're not deceived and they continue down this path, it wasn't the same thing.

37:07

And that's hard to, I guess, face, so. Well, and the other thing is that all of this stuff, and again,

37:15

I go back to the point of, you know, this book is kind of a continuation of what I was dealing with in Fault Lines, because it's the same worldview.

37:22

This is the critical social justice movement. This is another part of the critical social justice movement.

37:28

This is where it goes. You know, Resolution 9 in the

37:35

Southern Baptist Convention the other year, I guess it was 2019 or whatever, a lot of people miscite that.

37:44

The resolution was not on critical race theory. It was on critical race theory and intersectionality.

37:50

Oh, that's right, yes. And intersectionality, you've, intersectionality includes your race, your sex, and your sexual identity.

38:02

When you include intersectionality, you're including the argument that accepts

38:07

LGBTQIA2S+. Yeah, so once you've said we're on board with intersectionality, that's inevitably where you are.

38:19

And so all this stuff happening in, you know, 2012 to 2020, and I go back to 2012, because, you know,

38:31

I go back to Trayvon Martin. And I think Trayvon Martin and the advent of Black Lives Matter all the way up to 2020, this stuff basically exposed this worldview that a lot of guys were already holding.

38:48

Right? And it just brought it to the surface. It didn't create divisions, it exposed them.

38:57

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think since we've been going almost 40 minutes, what I wanna do is kind of a rapid fire round.

39:04

I'll ask some questions, and guys, get your questions in now, because I'm gonna try to get to them. I might not get to all of them, and then

39:09

I'll give you the final word. And you have a lot of positivity in your book, so I wanna end on that note.

39:15

Where's the hope? Someone, Josh asks, have you seen the Mind Polluters by Mark and Amber Archer, which exposes

39:23

Kinsey? You ever seen that, or? I haven't seen that one. Never heard of it, okay. Question, Bodhi, what is your best advice on dealing with reaching loved ones?

39:30

We kind of already talked about this, but family members who are LGBTQ +, personal advice on that.

39:37

Here's the thing. Don't compromise, because you won't be able to compromise enough. It's the same as the anti -racist thing.

39:45

So when you talk about the whole anti -racist movement, it's like, admit your white fragility, sit down, be quiet, listen, do all the things, do the work, right?

39:56

But the minute you disagree, everything that you did will be thrown in the trash.

40:02

It'll be, aha, I knew you were racist. It's the same here. Do I go to the wedding?

40:07

Do I not go to the wedding? First of all, no, you don't. But even if you did, it wouldn't be enough, because then they push you further and push you further until you finally had to say, listen,

40:17

I can't go there. And then they would negate everything that you did and your compromises will have done nothing but dishonor the

40:25

Lord. So don't dishonor the Lord, because here's the deal, the wheels are gonna fall off, right?

40:33

This whole LGBT thing, it's not a lifestyle, it's a death style.

40:38

These people are rife with guilt. Alcoholism is rampant.

40:46

Depression is rampant. Domestic violence is rampant.

40:52

Much more domestic violence. You know, talk about men being a danger to women. There's much more domestic violence in lesbian relationships than in any relationship between men and women, right?

41:03

So the wheels are gonna fall off. And when they do, you need to be the person who's been faithful and consistent.

41:12

Amen, amen. In the book, or is the book, sorry, meant for persuasion or fence sitters, or is it an informative as a resource for the guys with good instincts?

41:22

That's a good question. So you preaching to the choir, or is this like a tool to give to your friend who says he's

41:29

LGBT? Yes. Ah, both. Good answer.

41:36

Well, we can move on to the next one then, I guess. I would like to know Vody's thoughts on playing the Leviticus 19 .17

41:42

card when someone hates their brother in their heart by refusing to reason with them frankly.

41:48

Does he like that strategy? I'm thinking I'm gonna have to look up Leviticus 19.

41:53

Yeah, yeah. 17 here, just so I have the reference here. Well, it's a command to love your neighbor.

41:59

Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share their guilt. I thought that was the

42:05

Matthew 18 card, but that's fine. So, love, love, love, love.

42:12

That's kind of what I was trying to say, in the last comment about how do we deal with people?

42:18

I mean, we just, listen, love does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth.

42:26

Don't fall into the trap of trying to appease people who tell you to speak the truth in love when they believe that the truth is not loving.

42:40

Voti, Ryan says, how much has the victim mindset destroyed morale in the black community? Does it contribute to hostility that comes out against others who may not be black?

42:49

Yeah, you know, here's what's interesting. As we proliferate victimhood, I think we're destroying all kinds of, we're just destroying people at large, right?

43:01

Everybody now is trying to out -victim everybody else. And that's also part of this social contagion.

43:08

One of the things that Shariah brought up that was fascinating is how when white kids at school, they go to school over the last decade and they're horrible, right?

43:24

Your people are responsible for all of the horrors in history. You are the oppressor.

43:31

You need to be ashamed. They come out as trans and they've reversed the whole thing.

43:37

Now they're on the top of the totem pole again, right? Just because they came out of trans. They win the victim

43:42

Olympics when they come out as trans. So yeah, the victim mentality helps no one.

43:48

And there are more and more people who are trying to pile up victim points. Yeah, yeah,

43:54

I've noticed that myself. And you're trying to find some kind of allergy or hang up from your childhood.

44:01

It's amazing the lengths people will go to. Pearson says, Votie Bacchum 2028. So what about it?

44:08

You wanna run for president in 2028 or you gonna stay - That person wants me dead. That's one of your enemies who snuck into the chat here.

44:18

So I think where there's someone's telling me they have another question, better get it in quick because we're landing the plane here.

44:26

Votie, let me ask you this because your book is hopeful and I don't wanna end on the negative note of like, well, things are bad.

44:33

And my friends who used to be in TGC don't talk to me and LGBT stuff is out there and they wanna diddle kids.

44:41

All true, but I think I got that from 80 Robles. That's not original.

44:47

I just like it. So what hope can you give people who, they just wanna live their lives, traditional

44:55

Christians, love their kids, protect their kids and then have an influence because they don't wanna see their societies collapse like this.

45:03

Yeah, and I would say do just that. Live your life, love your kids, protect your kids.

45:09

Love your husband, love your wife. Be who God's called you to be, but don't just be that. Speak about that, right?

45:16

We have a gospel to proclaim and the darker things get in the culture, the brighter the gospel shines.

45:24

And the more cost there is associated with proclaiming the gospel, the clearer it is who loves the gospel, right?

45:33

Because if you don't really love the gospel, if you don't really love the Lord, you're not gonna deny yourself and take up your cross daily and follow him.

45:39

You're gonna find a way to try to get along. You're gonna find a way to compromise and we can't do that.

45:46

And the other thing that I'll say is there are thousands of prophets who haven't bowed the knee to Baal. You need to find brothers and sisters who are standing firm on this because they feel just as lonely as you are.

45:59

And we need to link arms and link arms not just to go and hide, but link arms to stand firm and to encourage one another to stand firm.

46:08

All the more as we see the day approaching. Amen, amen. We got more questions coming in, but we don't have time guys, sorry.

46:14

So if you want to get ahold of Bodhi, you're probably gonna have to show up where he's speaking and they can find out where you're speaking, when by going to, is it bodhibachamministries .com?

46:24

It's bodhibacham .org. Bodhibacham .org. Okay, that's where you go, bodhibacham .org. And just to let people know,

46:30

I mean, the reason we did this is because Bodhi does have a book out and this is being suppressed by places like Facebook.

46:37

They don't want you to get this book. And obviously we want this book to do well. It's, you want to do something about the sexual revolution in the pride month, one of the things you can do is get this book.

46:49

This is one of the tools we have at our disposal. So check it out. It's not likebeingblack .com.

46:54

Go to Amazon, check it out. And with that, thank you, Bodhi. I really, really appreciate your time and wisdom on this.