Matt Slick Live: December 12, 2024

The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network.

It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm .org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers.

Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Introduction to the Nature and Extent of the Soul

All right, welcome to the show. Hope you're going to have a good time today listening. We've got an esoteric topic we're going to be discussing. I'll talk about that in a little bit. I just want to remind you that if you want to call, we're going to have a question series set on the nature and extent of the soul.

That's what we're going to be talking about today. Got a guy waiting, Stan Wallace. We're going to get to him. But I want to remind you that this month is Matching Funds Drive. Now, I'm going to be out of the studio all of the last week of December.

So we won't have live shows then. So I just want to remind you now that if you want to support the show, if you like the show, if you want to see it continue, then please consider supporting us. We do need that.

And you can go to CARM .org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G, and forward slash donate. And everything you need is right there. Whatever you donate, whatever it be, big, little, small, doesn't matter. We don't care.

It'll be doubled because we have a Matching Funds donor guy who just says, hey, whatever they do, we'll double it. So there you go. And it's easy to do. Just go to CARM .org, forward slash donate. Also, if you have a question or a comment and you want to contact us by e-mail, just send an e-mail to info at CARM .org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G.

And in the subject line, put in radio comment or radio question, and we can get to them. And we'll do that. We usually get to them on Friday. Now, tomorrow is Friday the 13th. And I'm going to talk about what is going on with Friday the 13th.

I do it each year or each Friday the 13th. I mention what the possible issue is with it and where it originated out of Scripture. And a lot of people are surprised about that. It's a possibility. We don't know, but we'll see.

And I like talking about it. Like we've been talking about baptism and some other topics. Today, we're going to be talking about the nature and extent of the soul. And we're going to be talking with Stan Wallace.

And I believe, Stan, you're on right now, aren't you? Are you there? Oh, I hit the button.

Hello.

Sorry about that. So, hey, Stan, welcome to the show.

Thanks.

Good to be here.

All right.

Now, so, ladies and gentlemen, Stan Wallace, Dr. Stan Wallace, has written a book. It's worth looking into. It's about neuroscience, the soul, and humanity and things like that. Now, some of you may know that I like topics like that and getting into issues.

And he and I had a discussion over the phone last week. And I'll tell you, he knows his stuff. And it's going to be interesting. So there's a little bit of an intro. But, Stan, could you introduce yourself, take as long as you need, and how people might get a hold of you?

And then we're going to jump into this topic of the nature of our soul and stuff like that. Okay? Go ahead.

Sure.

I serve as president and CEO of Global Scholars. We equip Christian professors to be Christ on campus and in public universities around the world. And I've also done graduate work in philosophy, hold my master's and doctorate in the field, and am very interested in some ideas that are seeping into our churches that I think are pretty contrary to Scripture and need to be addressed from a biblical and philosophical perspective concerning what we are, the nature of our soul, and its relationship to our bodies, and how we flourish.

So I was convicted by the Lord to practice what I preach. I'm always talking to our professors about bringing biblical truth into issues that they see need clarification. And this is an issue that the Lord brought to my attention that I might be able to help clarify, and it led to writing this book.

Good. Good, good. I don't know if you've heard me very much and stuff, but I do a little bit of philosophy and logic and discussions of the nature of the soul, and yesterday did a talk on soul sleep and problems with it, and how it affects the hypostatic union and various things.

So for me, it's a fun topic. But you mentioned already, and we can take it the order, whichever way you want to go, but the things creeping into the church that are problematic. Now, I'd like to get to that, but foundations are first.

So whichever direction you want to go, you want to talk about the nature of the soul or problems that are going on in the church? What would you like to jump in at?

Well, let's just start with Scripture. What do we know from the biblical text about what we are? And then we can go from there, okay?

Sounds good.

The Soul as a Deep Unity of Body and Person

All right. So historically, and this is across the ages and across the globe, there's pretty much been a consensus that we are ultimately a soul that has a body. But we're not identical to our body, and we're not a composite of soul and body.

We read often of, for instance, Paul saying he desires to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, which indicates he is that thing that continues even after his body dies. Now, Jesus says the same to the thief on the cross.

I think we lost him. Yeah, something just happened, and we just lost him. I just watched it on the screen. So hopefully he'll just call back, and we'll get him back on the air as soon as he finds out what happened, not a big deal.

But let me kind of just preamble it a little bit. He said something that's good. He says we have a soul, we have a body, but we're not a composite of the soul and the body. Now, there's a view in philosophy called materialism.

Materialism says that the physical world is all there is. And if the physical world is all there is, and there's no supernatural, then it means then that the human brain produces the spirit, produces the mind.

But that would be problematic because it means the mind is restricted to neurochemical reactions. And so when someone says that the soul and the body are identical and or concomitantly related to each other, that one generates the other, then you'd have a problem.

All right.

Hey, Stan, you're back on. I don't know what happened there.

I'm back.

Where did I lose you?

You just talked about we have a soul, we have a body, but it's not a composite of soul and body. And then a few seconds after that, the phone went dead.

Okay.

I mentioned Jesus's comment to the thief on the cross, that today you will be with me in paradise, even though his body won't be. He, his soul, will be. And Paul writing things such as, it's better to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, the sense that I, Paul, will be with the Lord, but I won't have my body.

So there's a clear teaching throughout scripture that, yes, we are, we are essentially a soul, but secondly, we are deeply united to our bodies.

In fact,.

It's such a deep unity that some of the old Testament texts almost seems like it's talking about just one thing that we are a composite again, through progressive revelation. We realize that no, as we hear more and more from the biblical authors, that we are a soul that has a body, but it's a deep functional unity.

And so with that as a basis, the church has always had this sense of, we are called to care for the soul and the body. And we've done better and worse at that in different times and different.

Places.

But there's this in both and without confusing the soul and body and saying they're the same thing or in some way, we're only a body and that's the worry is that, that because there's so many good, there's so much good research coming out of neuroscience, which is great.

We're learning a lot about the brain, but a lot of Christians at least in evangelical circles are confused a little bit about, well, what does that mean for the soul? You know, historically we've said there is a soul, but gosh, it sounds like we're saying now that there, there may not be a soul because every time we have a memory, we can trace it to a brain event and some neural activity.

So maybe ideas about the soul has to change. Maybe there is no soul. We're really just a bundle of neurons that are generating these experiences of thoughts and beliefs and desires and choices and so on.

And so that's where the confusion comes in trying to get clear on, well, how do we make sense of the biblical text talking about us as a soul that has a body with the data of neuroscience, which seems to at least before we really think about it, be saying we're just a body and the soul's kind of passe.

We should kind of give that idea up.

Now hearing you say that I've got my, my mind is filling with potential problems with that, with basically materialism and reductive to the issue of we're nothing more than neurochemical reactions, which means we can't trust our own thoughts.

These are just necessitated. So you want to talk about that at all? Or you want to get into, you know, what does it mean to be human?

Sure. I'll go any direction you think your listeners would like to like, like to have the conversation go. The problem is there's, there's so many good things here. We'll run out of time. So I want to do whatever is best for your audience.

Well, my audience is varied. And I've been trying to train them for years using logic and scripture. Scripture of course is predominant and using logic and teaching various things. And yesterday, just coincidentally, I went through the issue of soul sleep and I explained the problems with soul sleep, particularly as it relates to the hypostatic union and how it invalidates what's called the communication of the properties.

And so I explained these things and I showed why that's a problem. And sometimes when I talk to atheists about materialism, it was called, I know, you know, this property dualism that the soul emanates or this mind, or they call it as a property of the physical brain.

Well, that's the case. And that means we're nothing more than neurochemical reactions. And if that's the case, then it's just necessary chemical reactions. Well, how does necessary chemical reactions produce truth?

How do we know that what we're even saying about necessary chemical reactions is true? It's just chemical reactions. And so it reduces to self-refutation because you can't trust it. And so I talked to them like that.

So that should give you an idea of what level to go at. So why don't we try this? Let's talk about an ontological issue on the nature of humanity. And if you want to get into that, what does it mean to be human?

Sure.

I think the best definition is an individuated human nature. That's what a soul is. And in that is the question you're raising. What is that thing referred to as human? So let me take those three terms in reverse order to unpack it.

So individuated human nature. So what's in nature? Well, let me take as an example, playing piano. If you ask me, can you play a Bach concerto right now? I'm going to say no, I can't. I don't have the capacity to play piano right now.

But if you were to ask me, can you ever see yourself doing that? I'd say yes. I have the capacity to have the capacity. In other words, I have the ability to learn to play piano. I can't do it right now.

It's not a first-order capacity or ability I have at the moment. But I have a second-order capacity or ability to develop the first-order capacity. Now, that second-order capacity, the ability to learn to play piano, requires a third-order capacity, a higher-order capacity, namely the capacity to understand musical theory, to read music, which assumes a fourth-order capacity, a higher-order capacity, which is the ability to reason abstractly.

So we have a hierarchy of capacities here. And the highest-level capacity is what a nature is. And actually, it's the set of all of the highest-order capacities. So that's what a nature is. And so different things, different types of things, have different natures.

They have different sets of highest-order capacities. So a human nature is that set of highest-order capacities that all and only human beings have.

Okay?

And those are individuated because your soul, the way you express all those highest-order capacities, the same ones that I have, but they're expressed in different ways. We're individuals. We're individuated.

So that's what a soul is. And in that is the concept of human nature, humanness.

Okay.

Christ, the Image of God, and Spiritual Formation

We've got a break coming up. We've got a break coming up, so let's continue with this. Because I like what you just said, what we share with Christ. That's going to be good stuff. I'll probably get into the communicable attributes.

I like that.

Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. And if you want to call about this topic, we'll give the number out later.

It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. We have Stan Wallace on. And I just want to let you know that if you want to discuss or have a question related to the topic, which is the nature of the soul.

Let me tell you, this is a very important topic. It's not just something that philosophers and guys with big thick glasses have to talk about. This gets down to the issue of preaching and teaching and ultimately even relates to the gospel itself.

So, hey, Stan, are you still there?

I'm here.

All right, so we were talking before the break about our relationship with Christ in this issue of humanity. So take it up. Keep going.

Well, yeah, that's such an important topic to tie this into. We're told that Christ took on our form, our nature, shares our nature with us, and it's the same nature Adam had and all humans had. And that's why he's an equal substitute for us.

And in fact, by understanding the nature of the soul and these different capacities of the soul and how Christ exemplified each of them fully, we can get a much more robust picture of what maturity in Christ looks like because we understand what it looks like to fully flourish in terms of all the capacities of soul and body for humanness that he ultimately modeled for us.

And it just makes the Scriptures come alive and we can start to put some of this together and unpack things he's saying and doing as the exemplar of somebody who's fully and completely human as well as fully and completely divine.

This also relates to evangelism and discipleship and missions. In fact, the Luzon movement, the global missions movement, just did a global survey, about a four-year survey, asking Church leaders, mission leaders, what are the key Gospel issues in the next 25 years that we, the Church, need to be able to address and in the top of the list was, what does it mean to be human?

Because it has such implications on issues in biomedical ethics, abortion and euthanasia and all of the technology being developed. It has implications in terms of gender identity issues, in terms of transhumanism, in terms of AI, and it's issues that churches and the broader population are really wrestling with.

So this issue has so many touch points and they're questions we've got to be able to answer to engage the world in the Gospel and in discipleship within our churches.

Completely. What got you started with this? Was there a statement someplace or a series of statements that it gradually just kind of grew on you? What happened?

Yes, there were. So I was sitting in a church service, a very, very solid Bible-believing church, and the passage was Romans 12, 1 and 2. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove what the will of God is.

And I was excited. That was the text for that day because so often we tend to downplay in our churches the role of thinking well, the life of the mind. And so as I expectantly awaited the pastor to get into the text, after reading the text, he spent the next 30 minutes talking about neuroscience.

In other words, how do we renew our mind? Well, we understand our brain better. And that worried me a little bit because I thought, well, yeah, the brain is involved in our thinking. We certainly use our brain.

We are embodied. There's a reason we're in a body. We need this body to function in the world. But ultimately it's not where our thinking happens and our character is formed and our choices occur. And so I approached him afterwards, and I just said I'm a little confused.

Help me kind of put this together, how what you were saying relates to transforming our minds. And he had quoted throughout the sermon a gentleman who I had not known of before. His name is Kurt Thompson and a book called Anatomy of the Soul, which really focuses on neuroscience and how it's helpful in spiritual formation, which just raised red flags for me because the disconnect between neuroformation and spiritual formation.

And so as I questioned him, he gave me another book. He said, hey, this will really help you understand it. It was a book called Renovated, God, Dallas Willard, and the Church that Transforms by Jim Wilder.

And when I read this, I got even more concerned. One, I studied under J .P. Moreland, who was Dallas Willard's protege, and I know Dallas enough to know that's not what he was saying, what was in his book.

And furthermore, it seemed to continue to speak as if, well, not speak as if, but very directly make statements like, your brain forms your character, or you are your brain in so many words. And so I started to look into this and realized this is a whole movement within the evangelical world.

It's called neurotheology. And it is this assumption that either we are purely physical beings, that the mind is the brain. In fact, Kurt Thompson, in his book, says the words mind and brain are really interchangeable.

And if it's not a full physicalist-reductionist, we're just a brain, it's a, and you mentioned it before, a property dualism, or a non-reductive physicalism, which says, yeah, there are mental events and things like beliefs and choices, but they're really byproducts of the brain.

They're kind of like smoke is to fire. They don't really exist in and of themselves. They just kind of emerge or are secreted by the brain, which raises a lot of questions about the intermediate state.

When we die and our brain doesn't function, how could we function? So all of these questions started to really bother me. And as I read more and studied more, I realized these guys, and not just them, others are everywhere.

And whether it's a pulpit in a church or a small group going through one of their books or a podcast that they're on, these ideas are being espoused unchecked. And though they have very, very good pastoral advice, I really appreciate these brothers for the very helpful advice they provide in terms of our own maturity in Christ, it's when they ground it in the brain that I start to worry, because it's the long-term implications of that physicalist understanding of the human person that has all of the implications that I actually spend two chapters in the book unpacking both in terms of our own spiritual formation and our ministry to a hurting world.

Physicalism, Cartesian Dualism, and Holistic Dualism

Okay.

You and I could talk for a couple hours over a cup of coffee about all of this. So I like to connect dots. And so I'll do a little bit of shorthand with you. Physicalism would lead to soul sleep, which would invalidate the hypostatic union.

So this issue... As I say to people, heresy begets heresy. And it's never alone. One error is never by itself. There's always things connected to it. I'm talking to my audience here. If physicalism is true, then what that means is the soul is a product of the physical brain.

When the physical brain ceases, the questions that come on, then, do the soul continue? These are just questions that are related to this. And so if that's the case, then the soul ceases, then Jesus Christ, his human nature ceased, which means he's no longer Jesus.

And there's humongous ramifications of this. So this is how serious it is. I know you know this. So this kind of reminded me of B .F. Skinner and Skinnerianism with behavior modification based on patterning based on humanistic philosophy of evolutionary theory.

Oh, we've got a break coming up.

So hold on.

Hold on.

All right. We'll be right back, folks. After these messages, please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everybody.

Welcome back to the show at the bottom of the hour. If you have questions or comments that you'd like to ask about this, we can wait until the last segment of the show in about 15 minutes. But the number is 877 -207 -2276.

Now, ladies and gentlemen, I don't know if you understand how important this topic is, but it is absolutely critical. The more he and I are talking, the more clear it's becoming to me that this is a heresy that's creeping into the Christian church and it's humanistic and its philosophy is man-based and it reduces man to neurochemical reactions.

And this will affect issues of ethics and whether or not God exists or not and how we can understand truth. It really is a very, very serious, very, very serious issue. So, Stan, you still there? You there, buddy?

Let me see if I hit it right.

There we go.

Oh, there we go. I keep forgetting to hit the right button. I'm not used to that one.

We do interviews.

Sorry, that was my bad. So, I forgot where we were before the break, but you got me going and I started writing some questions down on neurotheology, which I'm embarrassed to say I wasn't aware of it until you and I talked.

But this is really, really something. So, wouldn't this mean if neurotheology is correct? Let me ask you, isn't it just reductio to materialism? Isn't that what it is?

Well, again, I think there's two ways that we could read the neurotheologians. On a plain reading of what they're writing, yeah, it's reducing the person to just a physical being, to a brain and central nervous system.

There is some ambiguity. Some of their passages do seem to allow for a soul to exist as an epiphenomenon, as something that emerges out of the brain and is dependent on the brain. But ultimately, either of those are physicalistic views.

The brain is ultimately what is real. And if there is a soul or an immaterial dimension, it's wholly dependent on the brain for its existence and its sustenance. So either way, we're dealing with physicalism here.

And, you know, this is not new. This has been around in the evangelical church for, gosh, 30-plus years. There are a couple professors at Fuller who take this view. They call themselves Christian physicalists.

Nancy Murphy, she's a philosopher there, says, quote, well, better not say quote. I won't get it quite right. But essentially, there is no need to posit the soul or other immaterial realm of the human person.

From neuroscience, we know that we are fully physical beings and we need to learn to do our theology accordingly. And then Joel Green, who's a New Testament professor there, says the same thing and is advancing what he calls a neuroscientific hermeneutic, which is how to interpret the scriptures in light of us being purely physical.

Now, I think that's just wrong all the way around. But the point is that they've been there for a while, so they've influenced a generation of pastors and Christian counselors and others to either be at least open to this idea or, I think in a lot of cases, just buy into it hook, line, and sinker.

And I am surprised, and I think this is a testament to the level of our seminary's training in these issues, but I am surprised how many very, I would say, thoughtful and well-trained pastors are embracing some of these neurotheologians because, again, they're writing such good material pastorally.

They're just tying it into a physicalist anthropology, but so many pastors and others are just interested in the cash value today, the things that are helpful that these guys are saying in terms of our own growth, but not looking at the long-term implications of, okay, but if this underlying physicalism gets root in our churches, it's going to be a problem on so many different fronts.

So I'm concerned with the long game, not the today, how are these authors helping people in the practical dimensions of what they write.

Yeah, I can see how it would deny the atoning sacrifice because if physicalism is true, then the human soul is a product of the physical realm. This is just exaggerated a little bit to make a point for the listeners.

Well, if that's the case, then when Jesus died on the cross, then there's no resurrection afterwards because the continuity of his existence ceases because the two natures, the divine and the human, are broken.

And this would mean that the person of Christ no longer exists because if materialism is true and the physical brain ceases, then the soul, mind ceases, and the properties of Christ's essence, the divine essence, are no longer ascribed to the single person.

This means that the continuity is lost and broken, and therefore Christ, when he's resurrected, is not the same person but a recreated being. This is a serious issue.

Yeah, and let me offer the positive side here. So yes, this is a problem. We've got to address it. But this gives us an opportunity as the people of God to think more clearly about what we are. And I use in the book the illustration that what a thing is determines how it flourishes.

And as far as we have a proper understanding of what we are, we will flourish. I use the illustration about the tree in my backyard that's flourishing. It's got all the right environmental factors and moisture and everything else that helps trees flourish.

But if I plant my dog right next to that tree, she is not going to flourish because the nature of a dog requires a different environment to flourish than the nature of a elm tree. And so this gives us an opportunity as the church to think about, well, what are we?

And therefore, how do we really flourish? And I like to draw a continuum. And there are two extremes. And I'm trying to, in my book, find that middle ground because each extreme, I think, reacts to the other extreme.

So this extreme we've been talking about is physicalism. It reduces the person to nothing but or fundamentally a material being. The other extreme, though, is a radical dualism usually associated with Descartes.

It's called Cartesian dualism often, which sees the spirit and the body as so superficially related that it's kind of irrelevant that we're in a body. In fact, it's better for us on this view to be away from the body in the sense of the body just holds us back.

The physical realm, this world, just sullies us, and we want to be as free of it as we can. And that's contrary to Scripture as well. Scripture affirms the physical realm, affirms the body, affirms creation as good, affirms us as embodied in God's plan.

And the final resurrection is that eternal embodiedness, which is how we were created to live. And so I'm trying to find that middle ground and say, actually, from Aristotle through Aquinas through Dallas Willard and my mentor J .P. Moreland, C .S. Lewis, and others, there is a middle ground.

It's called holistic dualism, which says we are this deep, deep unity of soul and body such that what happens in our body affects our soul. This is why there are spiritual disciplines that involve our bodies, fasting or praying on our knees or what have you.

Those are things that are bodily, but they affect our soul. On the other hand, the things in our soul affect our body. As we have anxiety, we develop ulcers. So there's this two-way causal connection.

And it really makes sense of then how we flourish by understanding both soul and body are important and understanding, therefore, how what we do in one realm, if you will, affects the other realm and leveraging that for our flourishing.

So there's a lot of, let's say, real estate to be had here positively for us as believers and as we talk to the world beyond just critiquing and challenging the problems of physicalism that are being introduced by the neurotheological conversation.

The Origin of the Soul: Creationism, Traducianism, and Human Nature

Okay. Yeah.

I gave you a lot.

No, that's good. I got it. I understood it.

That's not a problem.

So I want to ask a question here because I'm just curious. So these neurotheologians, you're telling me, and I don't want to misrepresent you or what they're saying, it seems to me that they are espousing simple materialism with property dualism.

Is that the case?

They are, and I want to be careful. I'm not sure they are aware that they're doing that.

Okay.

The claims they make are pretty clear, but on the other hand they will sometimes say one thing and then the other. So I work hard in the book to do my best to give a clear assessment of here's what overall they're saying.

So most of what they're saying do seem to be physicalist in nature, reductive physicalists with just a body. So for instance, Thompson says that the terms mind and brain are pretty much synonymous. You can use one just same as the other, which is a physicalist view that the mind is nothing but the brain.

The immaterial is nothing but the material. Wouter says something about like our character is formed by our brain or our brains are what are attached to other persons and to God. And so there are these pretty clear physicalist claims, but sometimes they use words like emerge, which is more of a property dualism or a non-reductive physicalism.

We got to break. This is, oh man, this is bad. It's really bad. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Stan, are you still on?

I'm here.

All right.

So I just got to ask this. Have you challenged any of these authors and preachers? Have you challenged them to debates on this?

Well, I'd really rather avoid the word debate. I'd love to have a conversation. The way I see it is as iron sharpens iron, so one of us believers can sharpen the other. And so, yes, I'd love to have a chance to engage in conversation to sharpen me and hopefully sharpen them in terms of their thinking.

I think that's what we do as brothers who are engaged in these type of issues. Having said that, I sent them both a copy of the book and asked them to give me their thoughts and see if we could have some conversations.

And I haven't had a chance to I haven't heard back. I haven't had a chance to pursue that. But that's something I'm very interested in doing if I could get a chance to do so because I think we can help one another in terms of being clearer in what it is to be human and, therefore, how we flourish and how we love God and love others better.

Well, I've got a question then in this view. Who creates the soul? Is it the product of biological generation or is it God producing us?

Great question. So there are three views of the origin of the soul historically. One is not within the realm of the Christian tradition. It's the eternality of the soul, right, where souls just kind of exist and wait to get stuck in bodies, kind of like that movie Soul that Disney just came out with, played with.

But within the Christian tradition, there have been two views, as you well know, I'm sure, one is procreationism, not to be confused with origin of life, but the idea that God creates a soul and implants it in a body at some point in time.

And the other view is traducianism, that the soul is created as part of the generative act and procreation. And so both those views are consistent, I think, with either the Cartesian dualism or the holistic dualism, although I argue in the book more consistent with a holistic dualism, and I think with a biblical view of the person as this deep unity, is a traducian view that the soul comes to be at the moment of conception, and actually it forms the body around it, so that it's necessarily there from that moment of conception, because it's the cause of the body.

There is no body without a soul. On the other view, the body could exist for any number of days, weeks, or months until God implants a soul. So it's more reasonable, I think, to take a traducian view, but I'm not going to go to the mat on that.

Good folks disagree with me on that. It's not super clear in scripture, but I think it makes more sense of all the data. And so that's where I come down.

Yeah, I'm with you. Traducianism makes more sense. Creationism has inherent problems, logical problems to it, with an on-toss alteration through the nature of God implanting. And then when does it do that?