October 27, 2020 Show with Graham Dugas & Christian McShaffrey on “The Bahnsen Project: Helping Christians Everywhere to Better Defend the Faith” (Day 2 of a 5-Day Tribute to Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen)

The Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Introduction and Scripture-Based Theme

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 27th day of October 2020.

And I am thrilled that we are now entering into day number two of our five-day tribute to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson, born in 1948 and entering into glory with Christ for eternity in 1995. Today, for day number two, we are featuring two guests, Graham Dugas, founder of the Bonson Project, and Christian McShaffery, pastor of Five Souls Church in Reedsburg, Wisconsin.

Our theme today specifically is going to be the Bonson Project, helping Christians everywhere to better defend the faith. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome Graham Dugas, founder of the Bonson Project, and Christian McShaffery, pastor of Five Souls Church in Reedsburg, Wisconsin.

First of all, Graham, it's great to have you on the program for the first time. And Christian McShaffery, so it's an honor to have you as well.

Thanks for having us on.

Well, first of all, Graham, tell us about the Bonson Project, which is not only what you have founded as a ministry, but it's also our major theme for discussion today.

Well, it was kind of a generic quick...

Oh, Christian, before you do that, if you could tell our listeners about Five Souls Church in Reedsburg, Wisconsin.

A few families that were meeting for Bible study from seminary. I moved here in 2003 after my graduation. Since then, we've become...

Well, just as Graham Dugas just did, if you could give us a summary of your salvation testimony. Whenever we have first-time guests on the show, we have them give a brief summary of their salvation testimony, which would include what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, they were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up in their lives to draw them to himself and save them.

Well, I was raised in a...

Amen, amen. Well, I've been in radio most of my adult life, so I give a hearty amen to that.

Yeah, God has his way, too.

Praise God. Well, now let us begin, just as we did yesterday, because not everybody listening is necessarily listening every day, and we do perhaps have people listening who are not familiar with the life, legacy, and teaching of Dr. Greg L. Bonson and why we would be paying honor to him for five days in a row on this broadcast.

But if you could, this time we'll start with Graham Dugas. If you could give us a summary of who Dr. Greg L. Bonson was.

Define that discipline. Yeah, he is held in high esteem by many in the apologetic realm especially,.

Who, even if they are not lined up with every jot and tittle of Dr. Bonson's theology, they could not deny that he was a great mind with a great gift to defend the faith, and therefore you do have a number of folks inside and outside the circles of his own personal theological positions who hold him in the very highest esteem.

And I know that he was obviously, from what we have been already saying, he was theologically reformed and even ordained in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

Yes, and just offhand, I would say, aside from essentially leaders, Greg Bonson is kind of in, whether you're for him or against him. Now, he was also, as you had mentioned, or one of you had mentioned, a pastor,.

But primarily we're going to be discussing his field of apologetics that he was a leader and a champion of, which is so closely connected to the Bonson Project. Perhaps either one of you, in fact, if you could, remember to identify who you are when you have something to say, so this way we'll know who is saying what.

But if you could give our listeners, especially those who are new Christians who may be unfamiliar with some of the terminology that we're using, if you could give us a summary explanation of what is involved in the field of apologetics and what is an apologist.

Presuppositional Apologetics and the Role of Evidence

Yeah, Graham, I'll take this one. This is Christian McShaffery. Yeah. Let me ask you a question to help further clarify the specific nature of presuppositional apologetics. Two of my greatest heroes of the faith, who are both now in eternity with Christ, so now they're presuppositionalists, but when they were living on this earth, they were not.

In fact, they both contributed to a book critiquing presuppositionalism, and I'm speaking of the late Dr. R .C. Sproul, one of my greatest heroes of the Christian faith, especially one that was living for most of my life as a Christian, and also Dr. John Gerstner, who was a mentor to Dr. Sproul.

They both adhered to classical or evidential apologetics, and so if you could, and Christian, if you want to continue, and then we can have Graham Dugas chime in if you'd like, how would, for instance, there be a difference between the way someone like Dr. Sproul or John Gerstner or any number of other apologists who were not presuppositionalists?

Let's just say they were having a debate with a Roman Catholic and the nature of the debate was, did the church fathers in their majority teach a Roman Catholic gospel as defined in the Council of Trent?

Now, how would Dr. Bonson and Dr. Sproul and Dr. Gerstner differ on how they would approach a debate such as that? Because it would seem to me you would need to use evidence, you would need to use not only patristic sources, but the scriptures itself and so on, so how do you differ between their approach?

Yeah, Chris, that's a great.

Question. Four or five hours, church fathers, and get no... You know, Dr. Van Til would say there.

Are no exact same walk away with two criteria by which to be made, because observations are phenomenal, Dr. Van Til, and they're actually... It's ultimately, it's total honesty. You're just being honest about passage, Christian...

The classic apologetics passage in 1 Peter 3 .15,.

By the Lord God in your heart, and be ready always to... Are just years ago, we don't know, and it all makes perfect formation, by the Lord God in my heart. They have said there is no God in their heart, and therefore their heart has the evaluation of evidence.

Now, obviously,.

There is place for introducing evidence into an argument, even by a presuppositionalist,.

Right? I mean, you don't believe that evidence is anathema. And the apologist is folly, lest thou also be like unto him, according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. So, the prohibition is that we don't meet the unbeliever.

Obviously, the most vital way that presuppositional apologetics, or apologetics in general, is going to come into play, is not when those who have been highly trained, and are extremely skilled, and perhaps even have apologetics as a part of their career.

It's not going to be the formal, moderated debates that I have organized since 1995. I am a big lover of debates, and have organized many of them. I'm not participating in the debates myself, but arranging them on behalf of others, like my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, and others opposing Roman Catholics, opposing Arminians, opposing those in cults, atheists, and so on.

But, as much as I think that these are very valuable tools, these formal debates, and especially very helpful to the body of Christ, when those who are skilled are participating in them, the main way, the most vital way that this is going to come into play, is in the life of every Christian who must be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within them.

They are going to be having discussions around the Thanksgiving dinner table. They're going to be having discussions during their lunch break at work. They're going to be discussions on a plane, or on a train, or on a cruise.

We could go on and on with the scenarios when we, as believers in Christ, we who are Christians, have encounters with those who are unbelievers, and they could be just passive, indifferent folks who give us a courtesy to let us speak, and they might be bored to death by what we're saying, or they might be fascinated, or even to the other extreme of those who are hostile enemies of the Gospel that we are interacting with.

These are the tools of apologetics, and in this case, presuppositionalism, that are going to be extremely useful to the person that is not a scholar, not an accredited, degreed person, but the average brother and sister in Christ who should be further equipped to be able to have these discussions, and to refute what is being said in falsehood about Christianity, and to affirm that which is true.

Am I making sense here? In fact, I'm going to have you guys further respond to this after our first break, which we have to go to right now. And if anybody, by the way, wants to join us with a question of their own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages with our second day of tribute to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson, and we have a lot more to talk about, so don't go away.

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Apologetics as Everyday Christian Witness

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen,.

And today is day number two of our five-day tribute to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson, a world-renowned theologian, scholar, apologist, and debater. Today we have two guests, Graham Dugas, founder of the Bonson Project, and Christian McShaffrey, pastor of Five Solas Church in Reedsburg, Wisconsin.

Our specific theme today, under the umbrella of the tribute to Dr. Bonson, is the Bonson Project, Helping Christians Everywhere to Better Defend the Faith. Let me remind our listeners, and I'll try to repeat this throughout the broadcast, but since it's such an important website, I don't want you to forget it.

The website for the Bonson Project is bonsonproject .com, b-o-n-s-o-n-p-r-o-j-e-c-t .com, and as I said, I'll be repeating that throughout the program. But I was just about to get an answer from both of you as to why this is not exclusively the realm—that's apologetics—is not exclusively the realm of ivory tower scholars and theologians to be involved in formal collegiate debates.

This is primarily, and most importantly, the realm of the everyday Christian seeking to be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within them, and to be equipped to appropriately represent Christ as an ambassador for the Christian faith when interacting with those who are not believers in the gospel, and perhaps even enemies of the gospel.

And perhaps you could share with us—both of you can share with us—how presuppositionalism is very, very helpful to the success of Christians being properly equipped to defend the faith. And one thing that I can immediately think of—and you folks can both chime in and go in directions of your own if you want—but so far, there may be people listening, your average Christians listening, who are terrified even of the thought of being an apologist as far as being an everyday Christian apologist.

I've been using some highfalutin book-learning words like epistemology and so on, which basically means how you know what you know. But one of the things that presuppositionalism, as far as I understand it, is that it does not require the average Christian to be an expert in everything.

Sometimes when you see apologists and theologians and scholars give lectures or participate in seminars and conferences, you might get the impression, I've got to be an expert in science, I've got to be an expert in this realm of study and that realm of study to adequately defend Christianity and Christ Himself from the slanders of the world.

But presuppositionalism, to a large degree, doesn't it alleviate that burden and even that notion that your average Christian has to be.

An expert on everything? I'd like to read…. When everything is at school, is that you really don't become more acquainted, very honestly, with the genuine and evaluate. That's why we founded the…. Christian, you have anything to say to follow up on that?

Well, sure. You mentioned…. Actually, I still do that. I still do that. You do? Well, thank you for content by the methodology. What are the assumptions that you're making and what are your core presuppositional….

The presuppositional apologetic, is it enabled, educated? Amen. And I think that the scholarly,.

Formal, moderated, collegiate debates are very helpful because when we are involved in a lower level of everyday Christian apologetics and just having conversations with either those that are not Christians or they may be Christians with very bad theology, or they may think they're Christian but are sadly mistaken, we can hear perhaps an enemy of what we believe or an opponent of what we believe point to some scholar or theologian from their own background.

If you're a Roman Catholic, for instance, the Roman Catholic might point to Catholic answers, Scott Hahn, any number of the more well-known Catholic apologists. And since that apologist typically may know a lot more than the average person, may know Greek and Hebrew and may know a whole bunch of other things, may know church history extremely well, we may be more prone to just give up and say, well, I'm never going to be as smart as that guy, I'm never going to know the things he knows, so I'm just waving the white flag and either conceding that my opponent is correct or just not bringing up any differences that we have and never being involved in conversations like that.

Whereas we can point others to a more formal debate by the scholars to point them to people who are extremely trained and knowledgeable in those specific fields. Like, for instance, somebody who benefited greatly from the life, legacy, and teaching of Dr. Bonson is one of our guests this week on the program, Dr. Jason Lyle, who is an astronomer.

And obviously, if you're having some kind of a discussion with a secular humanist and atheist who is throwing out scientific facts he's heard or things that he thinks are scientific facts, even if you can't retort with your own set of scientific knowledge, you can at least point them to the fact that there are brilliant men of God sufficiently trained in those unique fields that have proven the errors of the one that you are speaking with.

Am I making sense here?

Exactly. By the way, Graham, could you speak more closely like you did before?

Your voice got very low.

How's this?

Much better.

How's this? Okay. Once you get into trying to know and once you dissect it, arguments can stand and say, now, wait a minute, what are you talking about? Where'd you get the table of elements from? Where do we talk about healing?

Where do you get the, oh, well, well, yeah, there was the order of five seconds later. So wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You need to tell me there was gravity too. Oh yeah. Gravity too. And then 10 seconds later, there was this.

I said, wait a minute. You mean the light? Oh yes. And the light. Yes. And pretty soon you realize that the whole thing is a show game and find out what that's exactly what it is. You know, they got a nice Brexit and a word.

Amen. And we have to go to our.

Midway break right now. This is the longer than normal break. So please be patient. Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to abide by FCC regulations to localize Iron Trump and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida by airing their own public service announcements and other local things.

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I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the NASB.

Is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order. James White of Alpha and Omega.