News Roundup: Mclean Bible Still Woke, TGC on the Pastor's Wife, CT on Nashville Shooter, & More

Conversations That Matter

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All right. With that, welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. It is time for a podcast, wouldn't you say?

00:36

It's been a little while. It's been since, oh, yesterday. That's right. We did the American Churchman podcast yesterday, but it feels like it's been a while for me because the last

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Conversations That Matter podcast I recorded was, oh, man, I guess last week at some point, early in the week, because I was away for a few days, and so I set some up to post while I was gone, but I am back and back just early enough for enjoying just a little bit more of that New York winter.

01:08

I don't know what it is, but we actually had a warning last night that it could freeze. I don't think it actually did, but it got close.

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This time of year, that just seems a little chilly, but I was out there with a jacket on. Didn't think that was going to happen.

01:21

Blowing some leaves and doing some yard work today, and the flowers were coming up. I'm like, which is it, guys?

01:27

Which is it? Anyway, like I said, we are back in the podcast chair, and we're going to be doing some ...

01:33

I say we, it's me, right? I'm back in the podcast chair. We're going to go over some material from McLean Bible Church that I wanted to share with you just a little bit.

01:46

I think the illustration here, the reason I'm doing it is because I want to show you how a lot of these institutions in Christianity that went hard woke, and this really applied to just more than Christianity, right?

01:59

They're not really walking it back, but they're being more sly and subversive about it.

02:08

They're being a little more gradual. The poison's still there, but you might not notice it.

02:14

You might just be relieved. You might think, oh, good, man. I was actually just looking at my computer at some of the stuff that happened in 2020.

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I was cleaning out a hard drive. The days of police officers literally lying on the ground, their face to the ground, to reenact

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George Floyd's death. I almost shut that out of my mind. It actually happened, though.

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That was real life, and it was only six years ago. All the crazy stuff that happened that year happened and continued, some of it, into the next year.

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I think when we don't have half the country burning down, we feel pretty good. That's what we compare it to, right?

02:53

That's like the new normal is just don't burn the country down. Anyway, I want to show you some stuff that Mike Kelsey said, who's one of the pastors there at McLean Bible Church, and examine it through the lens of Scripture and common sense, of course, and just think about what he's actually saying.

03:11

What is he saying the Bible teaches? Do we still have a woke problem? I would submit to you, yes, I think it's there. I think it's there.

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Maybe lying dormant and maybe not as aggressive in some places as it was, it's still there.

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I don't think it's gone away. That's just my contention. All the talk about, we've defeated it, it's gone, not quite.

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For those who don't know, McLean Bible Church, of course, is the church in Washington, D .C. area, McLean, Virginia, that was pastored, is pastored still, in part, at least by David Platt.

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There's a good documentary on that, that I was happy to help make out there.

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You actually probably could type in just David Platt documentary, it'll come up, but the real David Platt, real David Platt.

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Anyway, I wanted to also announce before we get to all that, that the book is out, of course, and you can go get a copy of it.

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This is what it looks like, Against the Waves, Christian Order in a Liberal Age. You can get a copy of it at againstthewavesbook .com,

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againstthewavesbook .com. I really appreciate it. If you get a copy of this, please leave me a review.

04:16

It definitely helps. We're going to, I'm distracted.

04:22

Donna just put a comment in here, please talk about how terrible TGC is with liberalism and wokas. We're going to get there a little bit.

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I have done a lot of material on TGC. I do have some, again, some subversive stuff.

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It's not hardcore, it's just a little bit of poison in that cookie. You can't tell, it tastes okay, but yeah, there's a little bit of poison in there.

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That's what we're going to talk about. Anyway, like I was saying though, Grab Against the Waves, Christian Order in a

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Liberal Age. Everyone, just about everyone, is there an exception? I think there's one person that didn't care for the book that talked to me about it.

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It was basically, that person I think has a firm agenda in their own minds about what needs to take place and is in somewhat of a minority.

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We'll put it that way. Everyone I know though, other than that one person who's read the book, absolutely loves it and thinks this is really, really good and necessary.

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You need it for a time. I would just suggest to you, even if you don't read the entire book, there are some chapters in there that are really valuable.

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The chapter on the Proposition Nation, the chapter on American Christianity and the religious ties that the founding has to Christianity.

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There's a chapter on... Actually, one of the ones I really liked writing was about appreciating nature. I know some of you might think, well, that's not that controversial.

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Well, maybe not, but it was eye -opening for me. There's stuff there on leadership.

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I think the most important chapter I wrote perhaps might be the one... There's two of them actually on leadership, but on virtue and masculinity.

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Anyway, check it out, Against the Waves, Christian Order in a Liberal Age, againstthewavesbook .com.

06:06

Now that I've said all that, there's one more announcement. This is for patrons.

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This is a patron -only thing. I've just decided I'm going to do it. I've been thinking about it for a while. I don't know how

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I'm going to do it, but I'm going to do it. I decided today... One of the things I've wanted to do with those who support this podcast, and one of the ways to support it is on Patreon.

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That's probably the main way people support. People also send me checks and stuff, which I really appreciate. Obviously, prayer support is really more important than even that.

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A lot of the people who support me on Patreon, it's a platform that allows you to post material and content.

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It's like social media, but it's a subscriber -based platform. You subscribe, you pay a little fee.

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I think five bucks a month is the low fee. If you support me on there,

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I'm going to provide something special on a monthly basis. What I've decided to do is go through the canon of Anglo -Protestant conservative materials, writings, important writings for our civilization, for our

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American tradition. We have a uniquely Christian American tradition.

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This is one of the things, I'm just going to say this, that frustrated me during the whole woke wars was there's a lot of Christians that think they have to reinvent the wheel.

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A lot of pastors think they have to reinvent the wheel. They end up trying to look through the

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Bible and then come up with, all right, what does the Bible say? Then what's our present situation?

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Even if they tried to apply, a lot of pastors didn't even try, but if they did, what does the Bible say? What's our present situation?

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I would submit to you, that's good. I'm glad pastors are doing that, but it was frustrating for me to hear pastors and Christian leaders say things like, well, we're not right or we're left, we're

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Christian. Or we don't have, conservatives can just be as wrong as liberals can. The Republican party, the

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Democrat party, they are irrelevant to the kingdom of Christ.

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We need to look through what the Bible teaches. I think what this communicated to a lot of people was you can't go and drill into any of these traditions and hit

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Bible. You're not going to hit Christianity. You are just going to hit secular theory.

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Politics ends up being this domain in that frame that's completely dominated by people who aren't

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Christians, or at least aren't operating on Christianity. They're operating in ways that are against Christianity or irrelevant to Christianity.

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They're just not touching with Christianity. The frustrating thing is we have this rich conservative tradition in the

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Anglo -American world that's actually been cultivated for generations, going back to Alfred the

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Great before that, really. He just tied up some things that were already present in his

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Book of Doom. Since that time, though, we've just had a lot of Christian development.

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We need to, I think, dig into that. We need to understand that.

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I think I'm going to do that. I'm going to look through the canon. I'm going to read some books I haven't even read, but I'm going to look through the canon of English and then mostly, hopefully,

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American works that have contributed to the conservative tradition.

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You can understand. I think it'll help you understand a little bit of political theory, but also a sense of place and ownership and Christianity and nationality.

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All of those things that I think are really, really helpful and are needed more than ever in our situation today as we're trying to build.

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We're trying to build back better. The slogan in 2020, we're trying to build back better.

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No, we really are trying to build something and we have inspiration from the past. We don't have to reinvent all this stuff.

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I'll probably start with Edmund Burke. That's what I'm thinking. Notes on the revolution in France.

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Then we'll go from there. We'll see where it winds up. There's a few books that I know I want to hit. I want to hit the Southern Agrarians.

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I'm not going to excise the South from this tradition. A lot of conservative think tanks, when they do their reading seminars and they go over various books and thinkers, they will tend to excise those guys.

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You're not going to read the Richard Weavers or the Mel Bradfords or any of the Southern Agrarians. I think we should read those guys.

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We're going to read I'll Take My Stand. That's going to be one of the books. We're going to read...

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I'm debating whether or not I want to do a different Richard Weaver book. We've already done Ideas Have Consequences, but we'll probably do some of that.

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I don't know if we'll do Scruton or not. I'm still on the fence, but we'll likely do a Mel Bradford book. Of course, that's all 20th century things, but I'll try to dig into some 19th century stuff as well.

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I don't know how deep I want to get. I think we're going to read John C. Calhoun's Disquisition because that is probably the most original work of political theory in America.

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Of course, these guys that I'm listing, these are all Protestants, everyone I'm talking about. Anyway, you can look forward to that, but there's only one way to get that, and that's going to be, at least at this point, is through Patreon.

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You would want to go to patreon .com forward slash johnharrispodcast.

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There is a link in the description if you want to get that. Oh, one last thing.

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Oh, I keep forgetting. I keep saying one last thing, but this is truly the last thing. The only other thing that I wanted to announce is that I did record a video today that I'm not putting out on the podcast feed.

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It's just on X, but I had some young guys reach out to me. I think they're younger guys.

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Long story short, say they're going down a dark hole, and they don't like the person they're becoming.

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A lot of it has to do with being in what I'm picking up on is chat groups that are saying some dehumanizing things or reinforcing some dehumanizing ideas.

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I'm all for humor, and I'm all for being frank about the situation that we're in and being honest with each other, but it sounds like it's much beyond that.

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If this is a tendency, which I think it is, it seems like it is, I would love to help in any way

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I can. I'm not your pastor, but I would love to. If you don't feel like you have anyone to help get you out of that hole,

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I actually opened up the private message chat on X, so anyone can message me now. You don't have to even be followed by me.

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The first link in the info section for this video on YouTube, I don't think I put it on the others, but on YouTube, the first link in the info section is a link to that video on X.

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If you want more, you can go watch that video. It's not a podcast. It's not part of the broader concern and effort and focus that I have.

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I did not want to put that on the podcast, but I didn't want to mention it. Take that for what it's worth.

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All right. I think we're ready. What do we want to start with? Let's start with the

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Kelsey stuff, frankly. There's two sermons that I want to talk about here.

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I'm trying to remember which one is in which order. One of them is from last Sunday. I think the one from last

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Sunday is called You Have a New Boss, Colossians 3. There was one from a few weeks ago called

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Jesus over everything, Colossians 2. This is part of a sermon series

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Mike Kelsey is doing on the book of Colossians. Again, Mike Kelsey has started to preach,

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I think as often, if not more than David Platt of McLean Bible Church. He's one of the regulars.

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I wouldn't normally bring this up, but I don't think he's actually apologized for it.

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I think I'm okay bringing it up. He's the guy that said he wanted to torch white people in 2020. Take that for what it's worth.

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This is a sermon from Mike Kelsey called Jesus over everything. There's just two parts

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I want to play and respond to. I'll ask you. You think for yourself whether or not this influential church in the

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Washington DC area is trying to push the lever a little bit. They've always done that third way thing, but that's always been a way to nuance left, punch right.

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Are they still doing that? I'll let you decide. This is the first one, Jesus over everything by Mike Kelsey.

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I'm going to take it to later in the sermon. Hopefully everyone can hear that.

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We're going to go to around the 28 minute mark. I'm just going to start playing and then I will stop it and respond. Okay. I went too far.

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Let me go back. Hold on. Let's go back to about 27. And this is one of my concerns with the growing influence of Christian nationalism.

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Now hang with me because I know some people are already ready to check out. Let me be clear what

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I mean here. I'm not talking about Christians loving our country or voting our values. I'm not talking about Christians leveraging our influence through politics.

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We as Christians should do that just like everybody else. But Christian nationalism goes deeper and reaches farther than that.

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There's so much debate about Christian nationalism and so many versions of it. The most extreme version equates

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America with the kingdom of God. So that American values become the most pure expression of the will of God on earth.

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That's the most extreme version, but there's a more subtle expression of it. And it's the assumption that a particular group of Christians have the

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God given right even mandate to define American culture and identity.

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And you see this increasing and far right conservatism. Don't mishear me.

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I didn't say every Republican, but you see this kind of Christian nationalism rising.

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Listen, at its core, it fuses Christianity with a particular nostalgic version of America that not only alienates other faithful Christian expressions, but it displaces

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Jesus as Lord and turns him into more of a mascot. And this is the temptation for all of us as Christians, where instead of us representing

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Jesus's agenda, now Jesus represents our agenda. All right, let's just stop there.

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All right. So this is Mike Kelsey preaching on Colossians 2. I think it's just the preeminence of Christ.

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I think that's what he's trying to talk about here. That has to be it.

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I don't know what the hook would be in this particular passage. What he is saying here is that the problem with Christian nationalism is that it attempts to, in his mind, define the culture of the country.

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And in defining the culture of the country, it excludes other faithful Christian expressions. And this is somehow very bad because it turns

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Christ into a mascot. So think about it this way. There's universality. Christianity is a universal religion, right?

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Anyone in any culture, in any language, can become a Christian. But under Christian nationalism, what

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Mike Kelsey is saying, unique to the United States or maybe the West, is this a particular style or kind of Christianity that should be infused in the culture and should be preserved and protected and defended.

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And I think he's describing me, because even though I don't take the label

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Christian nationalist, I've said before that I defend the cardinal doctrines, the orthodox teachings.

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I defend the creeds and all that, you know, the creeds that apply in a universal sense.

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But I also think in our unique context, I defend church bells and nativity scenes and skylines with steeples and the influence and privileging of Christianity in the public square so that when you have an invocation, it's a

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Protestant pastor who comes out and gives that invocation. I think that's ideal. Each community is going to look a little different, but that's something to strive for.

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That's how it was almost across the board at the beginning of our country. There are these certain cultural things and more than just what

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I mentioned that are unique to the United States and the Western world. And you notice this as soon as you step out of the

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United States and you go somewhere else, you start realizing the extent to which Christianity really has shaped us.

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And so I defend those things, right? These are unique expressions. When it comes to the church, right? I like hymns.

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I want pews, you know, actually my church has seats, but they're in pew formation, right?

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We have pulpits. Not every Christian expression has all of these things. Crosses, you know, in the front and empty crosses on the steeple.

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It's in English, right? So that means that there's going to be certain books and recitations that we use that other expressions won't use.

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Imagine you had in the United States a foreign expression of Christianity. Imagine it was like Chinese Christianity and that was now the default or that was the, you know, we were importing a lot of people from that area and they're

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Christians. So I tend to want to favor Christians over other religions if we're going to bring people here, but these are people who don't speak our language.

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They don't have the same traditions. They're not going to, for example, value things like our localist tradition where we have counties, we have sheriffs and we can resist tyranny.

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Like if a government says shut down your church, wait, that just happened. Our county sheriff can say, no,

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I'm going to protect these people. Oh, that also just happened, right? That's an expression of an Anglo Protestant ethos embedded in a certain

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Christian tradition. Uh, we, we believe in having, uh, in the United States, at least there's, there's a big kind of tendency to believe in gun rights and self -defense and stuff.

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Are you, do you have that in Chinese Christianity? Right? So there's these social things that the quote unquote

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Christian nationalists, Mike Kelsey's talking about, which you could probably say are ordinary conservatives for the most part that they want.

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They want to privilege the Anglo Protestant heritage that they've been, that that's passed down to them.

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And Anglo just, it doesn't not saying in a, uh, DNA kind of way. I'm saying like in a, in a tradition kind of way,

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Anglo Protestants, like anything from Presbyterian to Anglican to Baptist to Methodist, uh, and then the expressions that come from these

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So, uh, that's apparently very scary to Mike Kelsey.

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This is, and he's going to do this moral equivalency where like, that's a very bad thing. And that's against Jesus somehow, because it's against, it doesn't see the

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United States as a universal country. That is for all people, all expressions, all these universal notions, right?

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That's the, that's the liberal mindset. And I would suggest to you, that's what Mike Kelsey is promoting here.

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Although it's in kind of a subversive way, you don't quite catch it, but that's what you have to assume in order to have a big problem with what he's referring to.

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So he says this, and then you think, okay, he's going to do the moral equivalency thing, right? Like he's going to talk about, um, about progressives and sure enough, he does talk about progressive.

22:38

So let's go to that part. That's a little farther along. Here's what he has to say about that.

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My morality is the last one that we'll talk about kind of technical phrase for this is secular progressivism, secular progressivism.

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So listen, there's a good conservatism that wants to conserve moral foundations, but there's a vile conservatism, which we kind of talked about that goes beyond that and fights tooth and nail to conserve the cultural status quo, not for the sake of the common good, but for the sake of hoarding power.

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And so listen, there's a righteous progressivism that challenges the status quo for the sake of truth and justice and the common good.

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But then there is a wicked and destructive progressivism that goes beyond that and wants to eradicate

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God given moral foundations. And Paul says, see to it that you are not taken captive by that kind of ideology because we see it not just in secular society, but unfortunately in the church.

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It's the story of so many mainline Christian denominations and institutions. We become weak on holiness and the righteousness that God reveals in his word.

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And we capitulate to the cultural consensus. We lose the power of our distinctive witnessing as citizens of the kingdom of God.

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And listen, one of my, can I meddle a little bit more? One of my biggest frustrations is the way secular progressivism has tried to co -opt and corrupt virtuous justice movements.

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And it hijacks legitimate causes for justice.

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It attaches all kinds of ungodliness and unrighteousness so that to disagree with their particular ideology is then to be opposed to justice.

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Paul says, don't be taken captive. Not even in the name of good intentions or in the name of just, don't be taken captive.

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Progressivism promises enlightenment and liberation, but Jesus is clear that a move away from righteousness isn't truly progressive and it doesn't truly liberate because here's what secular progressives don't understand.

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This is what they don't understand. And listen, you got to lean in and understand this. God's commands as restrictive and as they sometimes seem are actually designed to lead us into more freedom and more joy.

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Listen to how Jesus puts in John chapter 15 verse 10 says, if you keep my commandments, you will abide in my life.

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Okay. All right. That's the bit I wanted you to hear. I'm going to say kudos actually for actually going after progressivism.

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I think that's important. The thing that you should notice though, is he hints that there's a good kind of progressivism and there's sort of two ways he does it, right?

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There's this progressivism that it can be taken too far. So that would imply there's, you could take it too far, but there's this pulled back version that doesn't get taken too far that maybe that's okay.

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But then he goes and says, there's these legitimate justice issues that progressives hijack and then they infuse it with some kind of ungodliness, which

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I'm assuming is some kind of sexual depravity or abortion or something, right? So they'll take BLM and then it's not about the,

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I mean, this is the configuration David Platts talked about before. There's BLM, it's legitimate, but then these secular forces want to infuse

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LGBT stuff into that. So they corrupt it, but it's a legitimate thing that they're trying to get involved with.

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There's a good instinct there, but they're off in this other area and they're not truly progressive.

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So it's really like fake progressives. And this is the thing, this is what stood out to me. So if they're fake progressives because they bring you to this place that has enslavement, it has an enslavement device and sin, then that would imply that there's, if they're not real progressives, who are the real ones?

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Who are the real progressives? The one that actually liberate you? Oh, I guess that's the Christians, right? And this is what, this is the configuration.

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This is the formula that I have heard for years from David Platt and Russell Moore and others, where it's like, it's not left, it's not right, it's

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Christianity. But it's like, well, what's Christianity? What's the Christian position? Well, it's the same thing as the progressive position minus some of the very overt things that completely contradict

27:49

Christianity. So you can't have transgenderism that contradicts Christianity. So they'll do this halfway thing where we need to understand those people.

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We need to, you know, like all the compassion is on thick, but then they have to admit at the end of the day, like that's very against God's plan.

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Like it's pretty obvious, right? And you're not going to get evangelicals at least to go along with this. So that's what it is.

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It's like, it is an attempt. I've always seen this attempt to reconcile Christianity with progressivism by saying that progressivism has excesses and Christianity can balance it.

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Christianity can come in and highlight the good things about progressivism while dumping the bad things.

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You know, and it's so naive to think that, oh, there's these really good justice movements and they just get hijacked as if progressives come in out of nowhere and grab these movements that are already in motion.

28:41

They were Christian movements, guys. No, they weren't. They are BLM is a progressive movement from the root.

28:48

Me too, progressive movement from the root, LGBTQ stuff, progressive movement from the root, climate justice, progressive from the root.

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All of it is progressive from the root. And really the actual configuration is you have Christians like Mike Kelsey trying to jump in and say,

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I want to take this for Christianity. I want to take the good parts of this in my mind and I want to use them.

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I think that actually it's Christians like Mike Kelsey who want to co -opt something that's progressive, but he sees it the other way around.

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There's these great movements that if only the progressives wouldn't infuse some of their more radical stuff into.

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Now contrast that with what you just heard about quote unquote Christian nationalism and Christian nationalism.

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It's just like, there's no good version. It's just bad. It's all bad. And why is it bad for the crime of wanting to conserve a particular type of Christianity and privilege it in society?

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Actually, I would submit to you, that's good. That brings social stability and we need a whole lot more of that.

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So yes, you can listen to that whole sermon. You might be able to hear some good things. You're hearing a softer tone.

29:53

He's not done about torching white people, but he's bringing you to the same destination guys. And I want you to understand that that's still happening because I think some people don't see that necessarily.

30:04

So, all right. So that's one sermon that I want. And this is a sermon. So that was a sermon from I think late

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February. This is a sermon from last week. This is a sermon from last week from Mike Kelsey.

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And the title of this one is you have a new boss and there's a number of sections.

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I don't know if we'll play all of them. Let's start. We're going to start about eight minutes in.

30:28

All right. Paul is writing into a context that was full of folks who were slaves and they weren't a separate social class.

30:45

In fact, slaves were integrated throughout Roman society. They didn't just work in the field or in homes.

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In Roman society, slaves held all kinds of professional roles. So you had slaves that were doctors, slaves that were lawyers or professors.

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And so in Paul's context, slavery wasn't based on race like slavery was here in the

31:06

US and it wasn't usually permanent. In fact, people often chose to become slaves temporarily in order to pay off outstanding debt.

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So slavery in the first century and in the Roman empire was a very complex enterprise.

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But can we be honest? The fact of the matter was they were still slaves. They were still owned.

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All right. I just want to say a few things here real briefly. Normally, whenever you find biblical passages on slavery in the

31:39

New Testament, the attempt is made to say that that wasn't real slavery Paul was talking to or to minimize it and to try to kind of get

31:48

God off the hook to say that, well, if it was the conditions of the slavery that exists, that existed in the

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United States, of course, of course, God would have condemned that. And why doesn't Paul condemn it in certain passages?

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So you hear Mike Kelsey doing that here with trying to minimize

32:05

Roman slavery. Look, I've said this before, but I'm not going to get in all the details.

32:10

Roman slavery was pretty brutal in ways American slavery was not. They're different systems, just like even the ways that the family unit was conceived of had differences.

32:22

But at the base, you still had an institution there, marriage, the same thing. And of course, these are different institutions.

32:28

One, obviously, marriage is from God at the beginning. So his family slavery is not an institution that is embedded in creation, but it's a labor force.

32:38

It's a labor arrangement. And there have been different iterations of that arrangement, just like there have been different iterations of monarchy and governmental arrangements and so forth.

32:50

They look different in different places. Same thing with Roman slavery and Hebrew slavery and American. But you have to understand like everything he just told you, like, oh, like it was this people just sold themselves into it and it wasn't based on race and it was just better in some ways.

33:07

It was I mean, you really couldn't be like a Roman and be a slave. What he's referring to with people selling themselves into,

33:15

I'm not sure if he's confusing Hebrew slavery and Roman slavery there. I don't know.

33:21

I don't that was certainly not the primary mechanism for acquiring slaves in the Roman Empire.

33:27

A lot of it was conquest and it was it was different kinds of peoples. They weren't Roman citizens. So, yeah, no, maybe not race based, but certainly there was a citizen element that came into play here.

33:36

And of course, they did horrible things to their slaves and it was socially accepted. Sexually taking advantage of your slaves was socially accepted.

33:47

Gladiatorial arenas where slaves fought to the death for entertainment. That was socially accepted. You had the fact that I'm sorry,

33:57

I'm distracted. There's there's a light outside and I'm not sure. I'm not sure what it is. I'm going to keep an eye on that as we continue the podcast.

34:04

I'm not sure what's going on anyway. Squirrel back to the topic at hand. Roman slavery did have some some brutal elements to it.

34:12

And to minimize that, to be I just don't get it. I don't know why.

34:18

Well, I do know why, but it's something you could easily back check if you wanted to back check it.

34:25

But at least he comes around to saying, oh, it actually was slavery because some guys won't even do that. They'll be like, oh, it wasn't even slavery. As property, whether they chose it or not by somebody else.

34:38

And so fast forward to 1774, there's a petition from a group of enslaved people to the

34:45

Massachusetts House of Representatives where they actually argued from this passage and passages like it, they enlisted the words of Paul to argue against their status of perpetual servitude.

34:59

They said it was it was slavery's a conflict with Pauling commandments of family and communal life.

35:05

They contended that showed the institution of slavery to be inherently incompatible with Christianity.

35:12

Do you see that? That there were Christians who were enslaved, who knew enough about the

35:20

Bible from their own study of it, not just what a white slave master said to them. They knew enough about the

35:26

Bible to actually argue from the Bible and specifically from texts like this, that slavery was incompatible with Christianity.

35:38

This is why in the mid 19th century, Horace Greeley, editor of the most influential newspaper. Sorry, I was muted.

35:47

Let me just say something briefly. Actually, that's funny. Josh Pulver says the police are coming to get me to based.

35:53

Yeah, I don't think it's the police. I think it's a neighbor. And I know he's searching for something in a flashlight on and looking around.

36:00

I don't know if he's looking for his dog, but it's gone now. So I think we're good. You know, funny story here. This is totally off topic and it's my podcast.

36:07

I just want to talk about it anyway. When I was living in Lynchburg, Virginia, I remember this is the weirdest thing.

36:14

Maybe someone, no, no one can explain to me what was going on because I have no clue, but a neighbor. So it wasn't next door neighbor.

36:20

It was like a cross, like it was, it was my backyard and then they had a backyard, right? And then they were on another street. So I'm looking at their backyard.

36:26

They're looking at my backyard. So I'm looking out the window and for a good year,

36:32

I would notice certain nights of the week, like two or three times a week.

36:38

I would notice it two or three in the morning that late, you know, I'd get up to go to the bathroom or something. And I would notice there's a light out there and I would go to the window and there was someone with a flashlight walking through their yard.

36:50

I still did this day. Don't know what they were doing and because it's, it's two in the morning.

36:55

Like, I'm not going to put on some clothes and go over there and say, what are you doing? I thought about it the first time, but then it's, it kept happening and they'd be out there for hours with their flashlight, looking around their yard.

37:07

I don't know what that is. I don't know what that is. It bothers me to this day. And I wish I would have gone over there and I would have asked them, what are you doing with a flashlight?

37:15

Anita Smith says, night crawlers, you know what? That is one of the possibilities I consider. Like maybe there's some kind of animal out there that they're harvesting at that time.

37:25

Worms or something like it just goes to your head and they're like, they're going all over their yard. It's not like they're staying in one place.

37:31

So this is totally off topic. I just felt like saying it. And apparently a treadle thinks that that is something 80

37:39

Robles would do. And it might be, I spent some time with 80 Robles. You might be rubbing off on me. All right, back to the topic at hand, which is

37:47

Mike Kelsey. Do we really want to talk about this or would we we need to, we'll do it.

37:52

All right. So what he's talking about here is a 1777 petition to the

37:59

Massachusetts legislature, which was not all of them were enslaved. I think most of them were, it was like, it was a, there was a free man in there.

38:06

And then, and, and some, some enslaved people, I believe they were connected to some abolitionists at the time, but they wanted to use the declaration of independence as a justification for ending the practice of slavery.

38:17

Of course, this was ignored by the Massachusetts legislature because that's not what the declaration of independence was about.

38:23

And, uh, that, that is one of the, I mean, I've never brought that up. I didn't bring that up even in my book, but I guess you could say that's one of the evidences that some of the things that people say about the declaration today, like at the time in which it was written, even the progressive state of Massachusetts, which, you know, is progressive today.

38:39

It was obviously to be considered barbarian right wing by today's standards.

38:44

But at that time it was, it was one of the more commercialized kind of, um, I guess you could say,

38:50

I mean, we're using kind of frames that didn't exist as much back then, but it would have been, uh, more conducive to that kind of an argument.

38:58

Let's put it that way. And they ignored it. So, um, but he's saying that, look, there, there were some people in our country that wanted to use

39:05

Paul's writings to justify this. And that's true. I'm sure that's, I haven't read it, um, recently at least.

39:12

And I think I did probably read it a while ago, but, uh, but yeah, okay. They want to try to justify like Paul, when

39:18

Paul says like, if you're, if you can get your freedom, get it. And this now means like, Oh, it's like this, this, uh, egalitarian call to end slavery altogether as a labor thing.

39:30

I mean, that doesn't fit a Paul's other writings, but, um, but anyway, so just shed a little bit.

39:36

In the country at the time wrote this, he said it is impossible to mentally or socially enslave a

39:44

Bible reading people. The principles of the Bible are the groundwork of human freedom.

39:52

So while you can go to the National Museum of African American History and Culture today and see the slave

39:58

Bible that cut out parts of the Bible, why would, would slave masters not want, uh,

40:04

African slaves to read all of the Bible? Because they knew if they read all the Bible, then they're going to read about a

40:09

God of liberation, a God who stands on the side of the oppressed and opposes those who oppress them.

40:18

And so let me make this emphatically clear. All right. So it's been a while since I looked at this.

40:24

I've actually seen it. I went to the museum of the Bible. I saw it. It's one, it's one Bible that they have.

40:30

It's not even from the United States. Okay. It is from, I think a British British Island.

40:37

I forget which one. And it's, we'd actually don't know a lot about it.

40:43

We don't really exactly know what let's just, let's just grant though to Mike Kelsey that we can, we know the motivations.

40:51

Cause I I'm pretty sure there were passages cut out that even didn't have to do with slavery as I remember, but let's just say they cut out the passages that may have inspired freedom or something like that.

41:02

One Bible wasn't even in the United States. It, you make this, people do this all the time.

41:08

They make this Bible do a whole lot of work for their cause. They make it sound like it's normative.

41:14

Like this is something that just happened. This was what it was like to live in the United States. They wouldn't even allow access to Bibles that might've inspired freedom because that's what the

41:26

Bible does. That's what Christianity does. It inspires freedom, inspires slaves to escape and all these kinds of things that, you know,

41:34

I don't, I don't know the horse, the context of the quote, but I do know in the founding era, at least there was this sense that the

41:42

Bible does inspire Liberty because it respire, it inspires virtue and virtue inspires responsibility and responsibility leads to Liberty.

41:49

And these are the kinds, these are conditions that are necessary to have Liberty. You need to limit yourself.

41:55

If you're going to make choices. Otherwise, if you make bad choices that hurt other people, you have to be limited and then you have to crack down and there needs to be a mechanism for that, which is the state.

42:05

So, so yes, I, I do know in a sense that that is true. There was certainly abolitionists later on who would take biblical passages and then try to say that they were the true

42:17

Christians. I mean, they were even during the postal crisis, it was, there were denominations in the

42:23

North that were sending out missionaries of the anti -slavery gospel. That's literally what they called it, the anti -slavery gospel. So, so of course this kind of thing happened, but what

42:32

Mike Kelsey is trying to do here is he's, he's, he's picking a few examples from the historical record to convince you that anyone who was for slavery in his mind, or, and really

42:45

I think to do the accurate take here, anyone who was involved at any, any level in slavery.

42:53

So you could have been George Washington, right? But someone who is involved in that, a slave master perhaps, that they were participating in something in which they had to sidestep or depose of, get rid of, distance themselves from their

43:10

Christianity. So it's, it's cause it's out of step with Christianity, right? That's what he's trying to say.

43:15

Like you can't really have the two. And so the guys who were involved, they weren't really Christians or they were at least inconsistent.

43:21

They were disobedient. Uh, and the people who truly were Christians, who had the Bible, who were actually consistent, you know, they actually were against slavery.

43:30

Right. And that's the dividing line he wants to put in your head. Now that does not fit the historical record. I will tell you.

43:37

Uh, it, it's just, and I'm not saying that with any dog in the fight, like I'm not saying like, uh,

43:43

I'm, you don't have to be for any side in particular. You just look at the historical record and you're going to find there are

43:50

Christian men and you're looking in the Bible belt. There's probably a greater percentage of Christian men. Uh, it's not even probably there were a greater percentage of Christian men who were gradual emancipationists and would not have been in sort of the immediate abolition crowd that, um, that you see

44:07

Kelsey wanting to depict as the authentic Christians. So he's, he's setting this up and, and I think really the poison, and we'll see this as we go, the poison is trying to make the

44:19

Bible fit a social perspective that is in vogue currently today.

44:25

It's trying to fit the Bible into to try to get God off the hook, to make the

44:31

Bible say things that we want it to say so that we can then justify it.

44:37

And I've cautioned against this. I think we should be honest about what the Bible says and where there are places where there's critiques obviously of Roman slavery.

44:46

It's way out of step with the laws God put down in some areas in the old Testament. We should, you'd be honest about that stuff.

44:51

Right. Um, and that, but that's more of looking at it as a system. Paul's writing about personal relationships, uh, or labor, uh, arrangements.

44:59

And let me actually read for you. I should probably just read. This is from, uh, the passage, uh,

45:05

Colossians three slaves in all things, 22, uh, in all things, obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the

45:14

Lord. Um, whatever you do, you do your work heartily is for the Lord rather than for men. Now, Mike Kelsey actually has a good application of this later in the sermon, but that's really the application is whatever labor arrangement you're in.

45:27

If it's your boss, if it's, if it's your, uh, you know, I don't know, you work for a corporation, you work, even if you work for yourself, you're working obviously for your family at that point, whatever you do, do it for the

45:37

Lord. Like that's the application of this and, uh, respect the hierarchies that you live in, that, uh, that, uh, the, these arrangements that, um, you know, maybe they don't match a scripture in the way that they have been set up, but they are.

45:52

But, but you have a legitimate, tangible person that's above you who is in charge of your labor.

45:58

And Paul is saying to actually, uh, ultimately see God as the one that you're doing this labor for, which is a comforting thing.

46:06

If you have a nasty boss, to be quite Frank, it's, it's nice to think that actually you're working for God. So that's the application, but Mike Kelsey, he's gotta, he's gotta go and do the whole, like this whole antislavery, uh, thing that gets the

46:22

Bible kind off the hook and what, who it puts on the hook. I'm going to be honest with you is many members of the founding generation.

46:30

It puts Thomas Jefferson is on the hook. George Washington is on the hook. Uh, many of the signers of the declaration of independence and constitution, they're definitely on the hook here.

46:40

Uh, they, they become vilified, uh, under this arrangement instead of examining them and treating them by the standards of scripture.

46:46

Hey, how did they treat their slaves? You know, um, that that's the thing that honestly should be looking at in that.

46:53

And, and especially with guy like, you know, with Thomas Jefferson, who wanted to under the diffusion theory, they call it, but he wanted to end slavery gradually through a responsible way called diffusion.

47:04

I actually think it diffusion actually made somewhat sense, believe it or not. I actually think that in the time in which he wrote, it kind of made sense, but my

47:11

Kelsey, my Kelsey, uh, towing the line here. So, um, I want to, let's see, how far do

47:16

I want to go on this? He, uh, let's go to, well, let's keep going here.

47:22

Let me just keep playing. Since some more in the sermons that I referenced, let me make this emphatically clear, especially if you are not a

47:31

Christian, the Bible is the reason we live in a world that condemns slavery. That is not just my pastoral opinion.

47:39

That is not just, uh, propaganda, uh, Christian propaganda.

47:45

That is, that is verifiable, undeniable history. The Bible is the reason we live in a world that condemns slavery.

47:55

So listen, the very instincts that cause you to struggle with the passage we just read, those instincts were shaped by the

48:05

Bible that we're reading, whether you acknowledge the divine authority and inspiration.

48:16

Sorry, I was muted there. It's it's so tortured guys. Oh man. Uh, don't believe what you're hearing, right?

48:24

Uh, don't your eyes are telling you one thing as you look at the passage, but you've got to just remember, you got to emphasize that it, the opposite,

48:35

I guess, like the real message of the Bible is the opposite. Just go with the, what the

48:41

Bible says, guys, just take it in its historical context, make the modern application and be done with it.

48:48

That's, that's the job right there of the pastor, but he's got to try to get people to get over this hump because they're realizing what they've been taught in Christianity and what they're seeing in their

48:59

Bible doesn't seem to match. And this is how we get ourselves really right for atheists who just love to rip down Christianity.

49:08

I don't think we can, we can't defend against them because we're anemic because of pastors like Mike Kelsey, unfortunately.

49:14

Of the Bible or not, but Paul here is addressing a very specific challenge in first century

49:23

Colossae. He's writing into a culture where slavery is widespread and it is just assumed as a way of life.

49:33

And as the gospel is spreading, Jesus is actually saving all kinds of people in every sector of society.

49:40

They are being given a new identity in Jesus. They are being adopted into the family of God, equal status as citizens in the kingdom of God.

49:49

And now they are being included in the same local church. And Paul is writing, we already read this earlier.

50:00

We studied this together, Colossae chapter three, verse 11. Paul says here in this new humanity that God is carving out in the kingdom of God, he says here, there is not

50:09

Greek and Jew circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave free, but Christ is all and in all.

50:17

He is sowing the theological seeds that would blossom into a movement of abolition one day in Jesus' name.

50:27

All right, let's just look at that for a minute. So Colossians three, I'm going to read for you. Verse 10, it says, or verse nine, do not lie to one another since you laid aside the old self with evil practices and having put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge, according to the image of the one who created him, a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian,

50:48

Scythian, slave and free man, but Christ is all and in all. What's that talking about? The context of the passage is putting on the new self.

50:59

So you identify with Christ now, on a spiritual plane, you are in Christ.

51:05

So this would mean that the distinctions that separate you in earthly relationships, excuse me, don't prohibit you from becoming one in the sense of being brothers and sisters in the same family spiritually with other people who frankly may not even speak your language, circumcised and uncircumcised.

51:30

So you're talking about Jews, Greeks, but also those who have followed the

51:35

Hebrew law and those who don't. Barbarians, Scythians, I mean, these are different kinds of people that they didn't cease being

51:44

Scythian, right? They didn't cease being from that region when you became a Christian. So he's saying this must undermine slavery.

51:52

I think you could say in the sense that I suppose, I'm trying to think, like I've heard this argument many times in the sense that you're in a spiritual, like Robert E Lee said, the ground is level at the foot of the cross, right?

52:05

Like in the sense that you're worshiping and you see that person as your brother and sister in Christ. I suppose you feel an obligation to treat them in the ways that God commands for masters to treat slaves.

52:19

But this doesn't get rid of all labor relationships either, right? Like obviously if I'm the boss or if I'm a laborer, let's say someone's my boss and I walk into church, the roles could be reversed in the church.

52:30

Like the person who's the boss could be the layman and the person who's not the boss, who is the underling, the worker, could be the deacon or actually the elder.

52:39

I'll use a church officer. That's the hierarchy in the church and that's the hierarchy in the world and it doesn't destroy earthly relationships, earthly hierarchies.

52:50

Kelsey's reaching here. He's reaching because he desperately wants, like this is the morality of our time and we're very blind to the ways in which we contribute to disparities and because you're going to have hierarchies, you're going to have disparities.

53:04

That's inescapable on some level, but we're blind to the ways in which we do this. We're in debt bondage in our country.

53:14

I mean, Proverbs talks about this, right? We have a prison system that mirrors slavery.

53:20

In fact, if you're doing labor in prison, it is slavery, right? Even under our 13th amendment. You have generational welfare that people have a hard time escaping, which doesn't even give you the dignity of work and it's a dependency.

53:36

There's parallels here. We have sweatshop labor that goes into our phones and our phones.

53:46

Some of them are mined by Africans under the thumb of the

53:53

Chinese to get precious metals, to make our electronics, right? I mean, these are all ways in which we participate in things.

54:04

It's kind of like some of these things, I don't even know how you can't participate, right? How are you going to live in a world without an iPhone?

54:10

It's very difficult. I don't know if Apple's cleaned up some of that.

54:16

They've probably tried. I haven't looked at an updated version of how they get the cobalt or whatever they need for the iPhone, but there are a lot of ways.

54:28

The big debates right now is about who want a cheap labor force.

54:41

They want people to come here from other countries. They want to pay them off the books. I've seen this firsthand.

54:47

I've worked for contractors that hire these people and even ones that are conservative, Trump voting contractors.

54:52

They will hire because it's in their best interest to do so. They don't have to pay all the things.

54:58

In California, where I worked for a little while, you can pay the day workers at the

55:04

Home Depot or Lowe's a certain amount tax -free, at least at the time I was there. There's incentives for doing this kind of thing.

55:13

What is that? Do we call that slavery? I mean, the conditions they're living in are squalor.

55:23

I've gone to Fix Furniture in Danbury, Connecticut, which is basically a sanctuary city if you get to the center of the city.

55:30

You'll get families living in these houses, and they're on top of each other. I'm fixing beds, and it's like, how many people have slept in this bed?

55:38

Is it people taking shifts? What's going on? It's kind of sad in a way, but it's better than the country they came from.

55:45

I guess there's an incentive here, or they're sending their money back home and taking money from our economy and putting it into other economies, but it helps the corporation or the business.

55:59

Anyway, is that slavery? Sex slavery certainly is, which is part of all of this.

56:06

We have dependency on drugs. We have pornographic addictions. There's vice.

56:12

There's spiritual slavery going on. There's so many ways in which we have terrible conditions that from the 19th century, people would look at us and say, well, you guys seem pretty enslaved.

56:24

We wouldn't even see it. We would just condemn them, and we wouldn't even see the very things in front of us.

56:31

In 2020, how did you feel as a citizen? Did you feel like you were a free citizen, or did you feel like the government could imminent domain you or take away your rights?

56:41

We had a bill in my state that could have put people in camps if they were health risks. Literally, if it got out of committee, we had people saying it would probably pass.

56:53

Anyway, I think I've said a lot here, but Javier says, hey, it's not slavery.

56:59

It's business. Strictly business. Cosmic Treason says, all

57:04

Israel is not Israel and neither slave nor free. It cannot be seen as denying distinctions, but rather it must be understood as implicitly assuming distinctions.

57:11

That's absolutely true. Josh Pulver says, it's slavery. Only difference is the worker is given money to barely make ends meet.

57:18

No different than a slave master providing for basic necessities. They give barely enough money and call it freedom. Yeah, I'm calling this, guys.

57:25

I'm just calling this. I'm just saying, look, you're so hypercritical. I understand it to some extent, but you're very focused on this one, like the bad kind of slavery.

57:36

It's not really Roman slavery as much, a little bit, but it's that one period in America that our founding fathers were alive for and involved in, in some capacity, whether directly or indirectly.

57:50

That's the worst time. That was the pinnacle of worst time of human civilization. Today, we're just so enlightened.

57:56

No, we're not. We just label it differently. We just hide it. We don't talk about it.

58:02

In 100 years, if things go a certain direction, if they continue to go the direction we're on, people will probably look back and be like, those were the barbarous days.

58:12

All right, well, let's keep playing this. Let's keep playing what we see here from our good friend,

58:18

Mike Kelsey. But chances are, none of us who are listening to this day are slaves or owns it.

58:29

So while we read this and we see that Paul is writing to slaves and masters and he's writing to help them know how to relate to one another and also how now to relate to their station in life, in light now of the gospel and of their relationship with Jesus, as we read that, we wonder what does this have to do with us today?

58:56

Well, Paul here dignifies the work of even those who are enslaved and the principles that he lays out here for these slaves.

59:12

I'm going to move forward a little bit here. Let's see. I want to go to a little farther here.

59:18

I think this is a section I wanted to play. There's a few sections I wanted to play. Now, I heard

59:24

Pastor Eric from our Arlington location use this as an analogy for what Paul is doing in the book of Colossians.

59:30

And I thought it was so helpful because he says, this is what a lot of us as Christians do with our faith.

59:38

We sprinkle the gospel. We sprinkle a little bit of our faith onto the surface of our lives.

59:44

And he says, this is why so many Christians live unsatisfying lives and unattractive lives.

59:51

It's one of the reasons why Christianity has such a bad reputation for a lot of people in our country because so many

01:00:02

Christians have just sprinkled a little bit of faith onto the surface of their life, but they haven't stirred the gospel down into their day -to -day life in a way that actually changes the way they live.

01:00:17

They just give lip service to being Christians, but they have not allowed the gospel to penetrate down deep and transform them down to their core in a way that actually changes the way they live.

01:00:29

So, what Paul is doing in Colossians, remember, he's been lifting up all of this theology about Jesus, the preeminence and supremacy of Jesus.

01:00:39

And then what he does is he pivots and he says, now let's stir the gospel down into your everyday life because there's no area of your life that should.

01:00:53

All right. Yeah. I'm trying to remember why I wanted to play that section, but I did. And maybe it'll come to me, but I'm kind of drawn a blank here.

01:01:00

Maybe it's because I, the gospel centric language is still present.

01:01:06

And he's, this is a, this is law, right? This is, this is

01:01:11

God's command. It's a very simple command, really. Slaves be obedient to your masters. Do your work heartily as to the

01:01:17

Lord. It's really it. And this is becoming, like,

01:01:22

I don't know if he's talking about slaves or masters, labors, employees. What is it?

01:01:27

But he's saying that, that the gospel, I guess, has to just be stirred into and reach and people are limiting it.

01:01:35

They're preventing the gospel. They're not allowing the gospel to transform them. I don't know.

01:01:40

It's a weird language to me a little bit. Like it's, it's, they're not sanctified, right?

01:01:45

They're not, if they're disobedient, that's the real word. Like they're, they're either disobedient or they're not, but this whole, like, they're not allowing the gospel to transform them.

01:01:54

Like the good news that Christ's death, resurrection is it, well, his atonement applies to you.

01:01:59

His work applies to you. They're not letting that. I don't get it. I don't get it.

01:02:05

Maybe someone can explain it. I've heard this so many times, but it's, it's more maybe appealing to say it the way he's doing it.

01:02:11

But I would just say if like, if you're not obeying and God says to obey, you're disobedient. So you're a sinner. That's, that's what it is.

01:02:17

You're a sinner. All right, let's go to some more slavery stuff. He goes into Jonathan Edwards a little bit and oh, this was interesting.

01:02:25

All right, let me play this. This is like 35 minutes in. Respectful in inquisitive way.

01:02:49

I just want to ask, but I will say this. Some of you have heard of Jonathan Edwards, 18th century preacher, theologian.

01:03:00

He's often called the greatest theologian in American history. He was used as a part of the first great awakening and yet he owned slaves.

01:03:12

Not only that, he bequeathed, when he died, he bequeathed his slaves to his family. This is well documented.

01:03:19

We even know one of his slaves' names. What people don't know is that his son though,

01:03:27

Jonathan Edwards Jr. disagreed with his father's theology on slavery and he actually became a part of the abolitionist movement.

01:03:37

And when Jonathan Edwards Jr. was preaching from this passage, Colossians chapter four, verse one, he argued in that sermon that Paul's word to masters would have required them to free anyone who was being held as a slave.

01:03:53

And I agree with him. We don't know for sure, but here's -

01:03:58

Let me just get this straight. I haven't read Jonathan Edwards Jr., at least I can't.

01:04:04

I know, I've read about Jonathan Edwards on this topic. Everything that Jonathan Edwards has that we know about, which isn't much,

01:04:10

I've read on his views on slavery. Jonathan Edwards Jr.,

01:04:16

I didn't know he became an abolitionist. I don't think I've read much about what he said, but what you hear

01:04:22

Mike Kelsey saying is like, look, I don't know why Paul said this, but look,

01:04:28

Jonathan Edwards Jr., he said that this meant, this was anti -slavery.

01:04:33

You should free your slaves. So it's an appeal to authority, right? Maybe that will comfort you some that Jonathan Edwards Jr.,

01:04:42

like, hey, his dad was a big theologian. So he says that this passage means masters should free their slaves.

01:04:49

I'll read it again for you. Slaves in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external services, those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the

01:04:58

Lord, whatever you do, do your work heartily is for the Lord rather than for men. All right.

01:05:04

I don't know how that helps anything. It more makes me suspicious of Jonathan Edwards Jr. Like what was he talking about?

01:05:12

All right. So we're going to where, by the way, I do have two long videos

01:05:18

I've done on the topic of slavery and abolitionism and in modern apologetics, because that's really the application, right?

01:05:26

Is how do you in an apologetics framework where you're talking to someone who's an atheist, they're challenging you on these things.

01:05:34

How do you handle that? So I've done two long videos on that, and it is on Patreon. It's you have to go to the post and scroll down to last year, but it's patreon .com

01:05:44

forward slash John Harris podcast. And you can get access to that if you want to do a deeper dive here.

01:05:51

And, you know, I have the PowerPoint and the whole thing. I made that an exclusive. Maybe someday I'll make it public, but I made those exclusive, but you're not going to get away with this with an atheist.

01:06:01

I'm just telling you, they're going to make mincemeat out of you. If you try the route that Mike Kelsey is suggesting here, can you imagine you're in it?

01:06:08

Like they're reading this to you and they're saying, oh, the Bible approves of slavery or like it regulates it, but it doesn't outlaw it.

01:06:13

Look what Paul said. And then you say, yeah, but Jonathan Edwards Jr. Thoughts, they're going to look at you like, what are you talking about?

01:06:20

But we do know for sure. We all was opposed to enslaving people. I don't have time to dive into this, but if you want to write these down, look at first Timothy chapter one, verse 10,

01:06:28

Paul says, enslaving people is sinful and incompatible with Christian faith. First Corinthians chapter seven, verse 21,

01:06:35

Paul tells slaves, if you can gain freedom, do it. Remember slavery for many was temporary.

01:06:43

He says, if you can gain freedom, do it. And he goes beyond that in verse 23, first Corinthians seven, verse 23, he says, you were bought with a price.

01:06:52

So do not become bond servants of men. See a lot of people would choose to become slaves in order to pay off a debt or improve their station in life.

01:07:03

Paul's theology says you are owned by God alone. So he says, do not become a slave to any human being.

01:07:14

Most of this sermon is literally just trying to get around the words that are there in the passage.

01:07:20

So now he's, he's appealed to authority. He's tried to minimize the conditions Paul was writing under that, that slave system was, was not, you know, it wasn't like the bad slave system we had.

01:07:31

He is now trying to go outside the text to choose to, to very quickly skim over other texts to say, well,

01:07:37

Paul and other places said this. So therefore now the Paul actually say those things that that's a legitimate question to look into first Timothy for the sexually immoral homosexuals, slave traders, uh, liars, purgers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching.

01:07:51

That's NASB. Uh, now if you look in other translations, like even

01:07:57

NASB 1995, so the last, you know, this, so the update says slave traders, 1995 says kidnappers.

01:08:04

It's talking about those who steal those who just take someone, right? Like you just take someone and they're yours now.

01:08:12

And there, there was no legitimate process or anything. They weren't a captive in war or any, any of the things that scripture outlines, like it's kidnappers.

01:08:20

That's it's a syndicate now. So that doesn't mean that, and it's, that doesn't, he, he actually misunderstood or misinterpreted and said, he's trying to condemn an entire system that Paul is now giving instructions in and regulating.

01:08:34

This doesn't make any sense. Um, that would mean that you have people in this evil system that is sinful and Paul saying, stay in the sinful station, stay in the sinful system.

01:08:46

Uh, Paul's not going to say participate in sin. So this is a, I think attention here, but Mike Kelsey misrepresents it to try, cause he's trying to do this whole, like, look, don't worry about the text in front of you.

01:08:58

I know what it says, but there's all these other Paul says something different. And then in first Corinthians, uh, seven, it says, were you, were you called while a slave?

01:09:09

Do not worry about it. But if you are able to become free, rather do it for he, who is, was called in the

01:09:14

Lord while a slave is the Lord's freedman. What does that mean? Well, is that person literally free?

01:09:21

Paul's not it's no, not it's in a spiritual sense. You're free from sin. He's being figurative here. Likewise, he was called while free is

01:09:28

Christ's slave. So again, it's like Robert E. Lee said, the ground is level at the foot of the cross. You were bought with a price.

01:09:34

Do not become slaves of men, slaves in what sense rather in each one of you is to remain in the condition in which he was called.

01:09:42

That's one thing he didn't read. You're supposed to remain in the condition in which, so if you were called and you were a slave,

01:09:48

I guess you remain in that condition, right? You're not like, you know, don't just, uh, pull a five file.

01:09:55

Like you're supposed to remain in this condition. So if you don't, if you miss the spiritual interplay that is happening in this passage and you just ignore verse 24, then yeah, maybe it'll say what

01:10:05

Mike Kelsey is saying, but verse 24 is there. It's, it's, it's embarrassing.

01:10:11

It's embarrassing for anyone who just knows their Bible a little bit. And this is what I'm not saying be pro -slavery.

01:10:16

Okay. I'm really glad that slavery, the kind that existed in the 19th century. I mean,

01:10:21

I would have preferred it was ended in a way that was more prudent, uh, where you didn't have a million of them starving and getting diseases after a bloody war in terrible conditions.

01:10:32

I would prefer that it maybe it was more responsible and gradual or, or at least there was some compensation to me.

01:10:39

So the economy didn't crash something like that, like a better way, better conditions. Right. But I'm glad it's gone.

01:10:45

Right. There were abuses connected with it. Yeah. You know, if, if even Robert Louis Dabney can say the slave trade itself was an iniquitous traffic, we can all say that we're pretty bad guys.

01:10:54

But the problem I have, and the reason that I'm going through this is because this, this whole thing does serve a woke light agenda.

01:11:02

What Mike Kelsey is trying to do is he's trying to convince you the Bible doesn't really say what it's it says.

01:11:09

So he's going to dull your sword when you go into battle. And then he's trying to convince you that actually what the

01:11:17

Bible really says is it condemns people like our founding fathers. So it will essentially cut us off from our heritage, which is what we saw in 2020 to vilify it and so forth.

01:11:29

He's doing it in more subtle ways, but he's still doing it. And the lesson

01:11:35

I think to be learned here is just say what the Bible says, just preach the text, apply it to the modern circumstances and conditions, and don't try to make it say things that it doesn't say about a whole labor system.

01:11:48

Cause it's not about a whole labor system. It's about those who are interacting within this labor system.

01:11:54

That's all it is. And to make more of it, to try to make it, to make it serve a pollute, a modern political function, because slavery is slavery has been gone, that kind of slavery for over a century.

01:12:05

So why is it still a topic of discussion? Because we know why, because we're talking about monuments.

01:12:11

We're talking about our founders. We're talking about our own history and whether or not we're going to gain inspiration from these people, or we're going to dump them overboard.

01:12:20

That's the modern political fight. Mike Kelsey is making sure that the people who enter that fight, who are

01:12:25

Christians are going to be completely unable to defend their own heritage and their own

01:12:31

Christian tradition and their own Bible. That's what this kind of preaching does. And that's why

01:12:36

I'm sick of it. All right. I'll take any questions on that, by the way. It has nothing to do with pro -slavery.

01:12:42

It really has to do with pro -Bible, anti -Bible, like are we going to interpret this

01:12:48

Bible the way God intended? And are we going to take him at his face value and trust him and say that the big lesson here, that if you want to try to make a systemic or institutional kind of application, that God brings salt and light to every institution.

01:13:07

That even in slavery, God brings, when Christians participate, you know what they do? They have the opportunity to abuse and they don't abuse because they have a standard that they are appealing to.

01:13:18

It comes from God himself. That's the moral of this. They limit themselves because of what

01:13:25

Christ has laid down in his law, and they love Christ because of what he's done for them. That's the standard.

01:13:32

You don't see that in Mike Kelsey's sermon. Just preach the text. That's right. W .T. Henry says, just preach the text.

01:13:38

Per both Torah and Jesus, the text needs to have two witnesses. Two witnesses? Maybe I don't know.

01:13:46

I'm not quite picking up what you're putting down, but preach the text. I can get behind. Do I want to keep going here?

01:13:53

Not really. He does go on to say they have politicians at McLean Bible Church. Should I play it?

01:14:00

I'm going to summarize. At the end of the sermon, Mike Kelsey says that he's very aware that they have politicians there at McLean Bible Church because they're so close to D .C.,

01:14:08

and he hammers on justice. That's why he preaches this kind of because he has this kind of rising call at the end for stand against injustice, stand against slavery, and the modern injustice.

01:14:21

He's doing it for a modern political purpose, and he tells you that he's doing it. I'm not going to play it because we have too much to go over, and we've already been an hour and 15 minutes.

01:14:30

That is the reason. The whole reason you heard what you heard is to suit a modern political purpose.

01:14:37

That's it. I was going to show you this too. Oh, not that.

01:14:43

Let's get rid of that. Hold on. I want to show you a website. Maybe I knew about this at one time, and I totally forgot about it, but Mike Kelsey in the sermon references this.

01:14:54

McLean Bible Church has mcleanbible .org forward slash race. I didn't even know this. Maybe I knew it, and I forgot, but unity and diversity.

01:15:02

They literally have a whole page on a conversation about race. I have seen some of these videos.

01:15:10

Yeah, it's kind of cringy. You see Mike Kelsey's wearing the white shirt, David Platt's wearing the dark shirt, and they're here.

01:15:18

They're just going to have an honest discussion about race and teach you a little social justice.

01:15:25

That's what they're going to do. Let's move on. We got other stuff to talk about. I'll take a few questions before I do.

01:15:35

People are weighing in on slavery and actually, honestly, putting some really good thoughts about this.

01:15:42

Thanks, guys. I can't show all of it right now, but if there's a question, I'll try to get to it.

01:15:47

I don't see a lot of questions here. Lots of good comments, though. This is an educated audience.

01:15:54

Oh, here's a question. I see a question mark. You mean to say this URL doesn't go to a page for the annual three -legged race at the church picnic?

01:16:02

Nope. Nope. It's not that kind of race. Different kind of race. How can we teach modern Americans that our founders like George Washington were not in sin merely for owning slaves?

01:16:11

Well, I think you're framing it, and this is not a rebuke to you, Chris, but I think the way you're framing it is assuming something from the beginning.

01:16:20

You shouldn't have to start out with the assumption that George Washington is simply guilty and we got to get him off the hook because that's what your question assumes.

01:16:29

How do we teach them that George Washington was not in sin? The onus is on the people saying he's in sin.

01:16:38

If people are saying he is in sin because he treated his slaves not in accordance with biblical standards, they have to show that.

01:16:46

With Washington, I don't think there's been a lot of this, to be honest with you. I've read several biographies.

01:16:52

They don't tend to focus on that as much. He was known as a pretty magnanimous person.

01:16:58

With Jefferson, they definitely try this because of the Sally Hemings thing, but if you go back,

01:17:03

I think maybe it's on the Abbeville Institute website. I produced a video with Mark Halachak a few years ago, and I'm convinced that is an assumption now that is unmerited.

01:17:15

It's really recycling anti -Jefferson campaign material, political smut against him.

01:17:23

I don't think it's true. I think it was a relative of Jefferson's that had a relationship with Sally Hemings.

01:17:29

I don't think it was Thomas Jefferson, but they can't prove it. They say a DNA test, but it could be anyone in his line.

01:17:39

It doesn't have to be him. There's some evidence suggesting that I think it was his nephew.

01:17:45

There's some evidence suggesting his nephew was probably the one to have that relationship. We don't have a clear record on exactly the nature of it, but that's probably the one that people try to cite.

01:17:59

I've heard if you go to Monticello today, it's basically the Sally Hemings Museum. Jefferson is so sidelined now, which is sad to me.

01:18:07

I'm not saying you can't mention the slaves who live there. Usually, when I was a kid, you'd go to these places, and they'd have the slave quarters.

01:18:13

You'd learn about slaves. That's appropriate. Now, I guess it's taken over the main building.

01:18:20

You go into Monticello, and that's what you see. I don't think you have to assume that, Chris. It's not about getting

01:18:27

Washington off the hook. People have to demonstrate that Washington was not behaving as a

01:18:33

Christian in these ways to vilify him in that. I could say more, but we don't have time.

01:18:40

Edwards must have treated his slaves with respect and love. Yes. What we know about it, yes.

01:18:47

I can't remember how many now. It's been years since I've read his writings on this, but he had some

01:18:53

Native American slaves. What do we say now? Indigenous person. He had people, local tribal peoples that were slaves, and he also had some

01:19:02

African slaves. Where are we? Edwards. Edwards was hopeful that one day they would make great theologians, actually.

01:19:12

He knew that wasn't that generation, but as they learned and were cultivated in a

01:19:19

Christian environment, he had this aspiration, this hope. We leave that out of the equation, unfortunately.

01:19:26

These men are cartoonized, and you don't get to actually understand what they thought or who they knew, what they believed about this because they serve a present political purpose.

01:19:38

I do suggest people, you could actually probably just Google it. Google Jefferson's writings on this. It'll come up.

01:19:45

Sorry. I keep saying Jefferson. Edwards. Edwards' writings on this. It'll come up. All right.

01:19:51

Let's keep going here. We got more to talk about. Covenant Shooting Manifesto.

01:19:57

I'm going to try to be quick on some of this stuff. TrueScript put an a few of the things that Audrey Hale said.

01:20:06

I was born wrong. Religion won't save. The journal contains references to autism, which

01:20:13

Audrey claimed to have. This has never been officially confirmed by her family. A friend maintained that she was a high -functioning autistic.

01:20:19

Love cannot be real if my autism is. Brown love is the most beautiful kind.

01:20:25

There are many references to a specific girl who is brown, as well as general longing for brown girls and their superiority. She mentions white privilege.

01:20:33

Audrey writes several entries about frustration in her work, from being unable to wake up in the morning to being satisfied with how much and how well she sold her own art.

01:20:42

Let's see. What else? There are several explicit entries that describe her sexual fantasies. Hale dedicates several entries to expressing her hatred for her father.

01:20:52

Two dominant themes of Hale's writings are her desire to die because she's been born in the wrong body and her infatuation with this brown girl.

01:20:59

Hale references God numerous times, usually positively. God is love, so are you. She also frequently references heaven and seems to have had the idea that it was waiting for her when she died.

01:21:09

She alludes to having planned an attack on Covenant school since at least 2021 and appears to have gotten cold feet in 2023.

01:21:16

So that's a new date. And the most disturbing part of the journal is the last entry. Hale writes about the heinous act she's about to commit as if she's preparing to go on a trip.

01:21:24

I'm a little nervous, but excited. And I hope I have a high death count ready to die. Ha ha ha.

01:21:31

So there's there's all sorts of stuff about, you know, obviously she's, you know, there's the transgender stuff, but she's she's a confused kid.

01:21:41

She's an unstable kid, and she is against religion.

01:21:47

And so we talked about this at the time. Now, she obviously decided to go into a

01:21:53

Christian school and commit this act. And she has some kind of a gripe with God.

01:21:59

And that's, I think, what I emphasize at the time, like this is someone who does not like the way God made them, doesn't like the world that they inhabit that was given to them by God and doesn't like Christianity, which is the religion she was born into.

01:22:11

She doesn't like religion, but that's the religion that she was part of. And so she goes in and she shoots these people.

01:22:18

Now, there are many at the time who said, look, this is radical gender ideology that's motivating this.

01:22:24

This is social justice motivating this. This is there's an anti -Christian edge to this and so forth.

01:22:29

Now, here's like you put all the facts together, and I think that actually makes a whole lot of sense.

01:22:36

Like she she she obviously wanted to kill people. She wanted a high death count, but she specifically chose this

01:22:41

Christian school. And there was other schools that I think Christian and secular that she was thinking about, but that that's the one she ended up with.

01:22:50

Did she do it because she hated Christ, she hated Christians, she hated, she obviously hated

01:22:56

God and she hated humanity. I don't know that there's much more to be said than that, but Christianity today feels like there is.

01:23:05

So here's what Christianity today thinks you need to know. Police. Massacre shooter wasn't angry at Christians.

01:23:11

So she's angry at a lot of stuff in life, but apparently Christians wasn't one of them, which is why she went and shot a bunch of Christians because she's just not angry at them.

01:23:22

Audrey Hale didn't care that Covenant Christian school was Christian. Detective examines her notebook and journal entries and her diatribes, her rage storms and the police released publicly all of this.

01:23:35

And they looked at eight thumb drives, seven. OK, all this stuff. They got a lot of stuff there. Investigators did not find a manifesto laying out the motives for the school shooting.

01:23:46

OK, but after reviewing all the data and documents that the shooter left behind, they were able to say with confidence that she they could explain

01:23:53

Hale's reasons for committing mass murder. She felt by killing a bunch of children, she would no longer be ignored.

01:23:59

She openly acknowledged none of those she would kill were guilty of anything and denied any personal motivation for targeting them.

01:24:06

She felt their deaths were necessary to give her death deeper meaning. So let me get this straight.

01:24:12

Investigators did not find a manifesto laying out the motives. But we sure know that she wasn't angry at Christians.

01:24:20

We don't know her motives, but we know that she wasn't angry at Christians. Does anyone else find this a little odd to me?

01:24:27

She wanted attention. Of course, she wanted attention. That's. Why does anyone do this kinds of thing?

01:24:33

Of course, they want to get on the news. The last entry is I'm hoping I'm going to have a high death count. So somehow that means she wasn't angry at Christians.

01:24:41

This isn't merited by the information that we have available to us. If we don't know, we don't know.

01:24:48

It seems like and I would lean towards she probably did have. I mean, Christians represent

01:24:53

God. She seems to be angry at God. It seems like there could be a connection there. She's but let's just say we don't really know fully.

01:25:01

So. Why jump and say, you know what we do know, we know we can rule out any anger at Christians from the magazine called

01:25:09

Christianity Today. That's the bonkers thing about it. Christianity Today really wants to signal

01:25:15

Daniel Silliman wants to signal he's the author that that Nashville shooter wasn't angry at Christians.

01:25:23

Now, why do this? I mean, you have I have my suspicions of why do this. Should I tell you them?

01:25:30

Because I don't know myself because I mean, I don't I can't point you to a particular article here that tells you exactly why they put this out, but I can tell you my assumptions of why they might do something like this.

01:25:45

I think that this has something to do with. Trying to signal to the

01:25:51

Christian community. That they're not really at war with transgender ideology, because that's what

01:25:59

I think this came to represent that look, these people are unstable. They're on hormones and stuff.

01:26:05

And look, they get they got an they got an extra grind with God who represents God Christians. Your targets for this kinds of thing, and I think this is trying to tell

01:26:14

Christians that you're not targets for this kind of thing. You can live in a this would make sense of what

01:26:19

I learned in seminary re principle pluralism. You can live in a principle pluralism environment with people who are transgender, with homosexuals, with Muslims, with every kind of person you can all live under this liberal neutral order.

01:26:35

And it'll all be just fine. So don't view them as enemies. They're not enemies. They're the mission field or whatever on a social level.

01:26:42

I think that's why they're doing it personally. But that's just an assumption on my part. I can't tell you completely.

01:26:48

And then there was another article here from Russell Moore, How Christians Embrace Nihilism.

01:26:55

He's doing a lot of articles. Oh, I can't read it. I can't read it. Oh, man, I should have. I can only read the first two paragraphs, man.

01:27:04

All right. I guess we're not doing that article. And I don't really have time to go on the

01:27:10

Wayback Machine and see if there's a way to pass the paywall here. So false advertising, guys. Sorry.

01:27:16

I was going to do a cold read of this because it's normally Russell Moore's pieces you can read. I haven't come across one that you can't read because he is the editor in chief of Christianity Today.

01:27:27

But I met my match today. So sorry, guys. All right. Moving on. If anyone wants to let me know if there's a quick way to do that, then

01:27:36

I'll try to do it at the end. TGC rethinking the role of the pastor's wife. This is a recent article by Wendy Alsup.

01:27:44

How did we come to our current cultural understanding of the role of a pastor's wife? Is it a ministry position?

01:27:51

Is it a biblical role? Or have our expectations of a pastor's wife morphed over time to fill the vacuum left in churches and denominations that deny women's ordination?

01:28:00

By the way, this is a cold read. I'm doing this on purpose. I'm reacting in real time with you. Denominations that deny women's ordination.

01:28:10

In becoming the pastor's wife, how marriage replaced ordination as a woman's path to ministry, Alison Barr, professor of history at Baylor, explores these questions.

01:28:18

Now, my mom is a pastor's wife, so I'm interested in what she has to say here. Along the way, she meanders through centuries of church history and anecdotal evidence from the

01:28:25

Baptist experience. Her book is meant to be a history of how Christian women gained a new and important role, but it's also the history of how this gain came at a cost for some women.

01:28:36

Oh, no. So they gained an important role, but it cost them something. Barr intertwines her stories of pastor's wife with other stories of pastor's wives.

01:28:43

Much of her experience and research focuses on women in the ministry of the SBC. Dorothy Patterson. Patterson heavily influenced

01:28:49

SBC women. Okay. The focus on SBC life let me on the outside looking in.

01:28:56

I recognize aspects of Barr's concerns. However, I was again and again wondering if her main focus for critique gave any insight into my current church.

01:29:03

All right. Let's skip ahead here. Unfair expectations. Okay. The core of Barr's complaint has merit.

01:29:09

She notes that the pastor's job often includes the unpaid labor of his wife. Actually, I think that's probably true. Barr didn't mind helping her husband.

01:29:16

However, she says what I minded was feeling like my help was an expectation. Barr highlights the two for one expectation of pastor's wives to join their husbands in ministry.

01:29:29

Okay. It's the highest ministry calling for contemporary evangelical women being a pastor's wife.

01:29:34

Okay. I don't know about that. We have pressured women who do not feel called to ministry. Okay. Some of this is true.

01:29:42

Okay. She says Barr doesn't examine the ways that the pastorate or more specifically the church office of Episcopal or Presbyterios isn't a normal job.

01:29:55

Unique issues and expectations surround it and sacrifice is inherent to the position. The labor deserves its wages, yet the church isn't a corporation.

01:30:04

Its ministry depends on the parishioner's gifts and the pastor's calling. Why do ministers pursue this field? Why do wives accept unpaid expectations?

01:30:12

Definitional ambiguity. I'm going to summarize here. The pastor's wife has a calling or a ministry, but we're not exactly sure what that is.

01:30:22

There's no job description. Can you imagine what would happen to arguments excluding women from pastoral office if we re -centered our definition of pastoral authority from preaching to praying?

01:30:34

Yet Barr also seems confident there were female priests in the ancient biblical world. Okay. Here we go.

01:30:40

The problem is that there simply weren't female priests in the Bible, at least not using a precise definition of the

01:30:46

English word for priest. All right. This is a little tortured here. Barr's book and indeed the whole church would benefit from the consistent definitions of terms.

01:30:55

History is activism. Okay. Maybe this is the part that's more important for our purposes. Central to Barr's argument building on her work and the making of biblical womanhood is the idea that medieval popes and councils marginalized women by tying the

01:31:08

Eucharist to priestly ordination and requiring clerical celibacy. 400 years later came the Reformation when

01:31:13

Martin Luther and other priests began to marry. Barr posits the role of pastor's wife was born, though it morphed over time and culture.

01:31:20

It's interesting because people say the modern family was born under Luther. You didn't have families, really the nuclear family before Luther.

01:31:27

I guess not only that, but also the role of the pastor's wife. Luther gets that too. According to Barr, in the second half of the 20th century, the role of the pastor's wife was elevated as the highest calling for many

01:31:37

Protestant women, waxing in importance as a more independently authoritative roles for women waned. So the thesis here is that women used to have authority and because of,

01:31:49

I guess, conservatives or something, they lost that and they, but they're sort of like nature pours a vacuum and they regained it in this office of the pastor's wife.

01:31:57

A bar presents our modern understanding of the role as a 20th century rearranging of women's positions in the church, particularly the

01:32:04

Southern Baptists. She doesn't tackle the conservative resurgence. Neither history nor contemporary culture is helpful for figuring out a vision of the church future.

01:32:11

They show us the fallout of past failures and unintended, unintended consequences that changes in regulations on one sex can have on the other.

01:32:21

Wow. Okay. So TGC is, that's an interesting line there. They show us the fallout of past failures and unintended consequences that changes in regulations on one sex can have on the other.

01:32:34

Okay. The celibacy, the celibacy of priests. All right. Since you, you, priests weren't married and now you have pastors, they're married and this cast women into the spot.

01:32:43

History helps us understand how we got to the place we are now. Uh, we need to align with reexamine, realign with scripture.

01:32:52

This book was painful to read. Bar isn't charitable towards complimentarians. Uh, bar no doubt has scars from previous encounters with them, but, but here's the positive bar draws attention to a worthy issue for us to consider, including those of us in complimentarian circles.

01:33:06

What do churches expect from a pastor's wife for free? Moreover, does that keep those churches from enabling other women to feel called to ministry?

01:33:14

I especially appreciated the research bar did by reading black, black authors. Okay. As well as white on the topic.

01:33:20

You got, you always got to mention that, right? And the responsibility of the pastor's wife, the role of the church mothers in the

01:33:26

African -American experience is a worthy one for white evangelicals to consider. Okay.

01:33:33

Uh, bar finds inspiration for a path forward. Do you ever notice this? Like, it's like if someone who's a minority does something that it becomes for, for guys at TGC, it's like that you don't actually need a

01:33:46

Bible verse next to it. Right? He just got, whoever wrote this just got done saying, we got to be biblical guys.

01:33:54

And then the very next breath is like, you know, the black church has this role called the mother.

01:34:00

Where's that in the Bible, but there's this role and like, like in an ecclesiastical sense, we'd be well to consider that no verse by it, but it's like no self -awareness.

01:34:12

All right. The role of church mothers, uh, bar finds inspiration for a path forward through wept to Noma Carter's 1976 book, the black minister's wife.

01:34:22

And this still seemed only a vision for the pastor's wife. It didn't speak to bars, larger concern for women's roles in the church.

01:34:31

According to bar, the question has never been whether women are fulfilling the function of ministry in the church.

01:34:36

They always have been. The question has always been whether their function of ministry is recognized as paid and professional, uh, whatever way compensation is available by the church.

01:34:44

Women too are worthy of their wages. So you should have paid women ministering, I guess.

01:34:50

So maybe you could just have church mothers. That's not biblical. Like ditch the pastor's thing, get church mothers and start paying them that I mean in bounds.

01:35:00

Okay. According to this article, since the majority of churches are stretched to pay even one staff member living wage, the bigger question for many churches is how we value and support unpaid ministers in a church.

01:35:10

Even those reject bars arguments for women's ordination can find food for thought and becoming a passion. Okay. Well, it's, that's interesting.

01:35:16

I guess the poison's at the end a little bit, but, uh, yeah, I mean, we're going to get women into like an authoritative role one way or the other.

01:35:24

And, um, yeah, that ain't it. That ain't it. Uh, how to help women thrive on church staff.

01:35:30

That's April 8th. So it's a recent one, uh, by Jamie boss. And I don't really have time to be honest with you guys.

01:35:37

We've been going over an hour and a half. Uh, this would have been a cold read to providing sabbaticals and study leaves importance of rest and growth.

01:35:46

Our church offers sabbaticals and study leaves to men and women on staff tailored according to roles and responsibility. Okay. I don't know what to say.

01:35:55

Like this is some of the things you read on TGC are really suited for a different kind of church than the one I attend.

01:36:00

It's not for your, I don't think it's for your modern or your, your average American church.

01:36:05

That's probably like 70 to 150 or 200 people tops and doesn't have a lot of staff members.

01:36:12

Like what are women doing on a study sabbatical? What, what in your church, what are staff members like that's normally when the pastor goes, that's actually like an academic thing.

01:36:21

And, but it's, it's something pastors do too, where that's when you write your book, that's when you, you go out, you need time to yourself.

01:36:28

You lock yourself in the cave, you write your book. Uh, I don't know what to say.

01:36:34

Like, it's just, it strikes me as odd. It's like, I guess these would have to be women in teaching positions of some kind,

01:36:41

I guess, in your church. And maybe if your church has a very large women's ministry of some kind and they can afford to send people on sabbaticals to write books or something, like it's just not suited for the conditions that most churches are in.

01:36:53

That's why I'm so not used to considering it. Um, I don't know.

01:37:00

I have so many, I have more questions than anything, but that's, uh, that's the TGC part and we got to end the podcast.

01:37:05

So I'm just going to give you one more thing that I promised I would discuss. So I'll discuss it. And that's

01:37:12

TPUSA's faith events. Um, okay. So, uh, this is what, can

01:37:18

I see it? Yeah, I can see it. All right. So this is TPUSA faith. It says freedom night in America is not just an event.

01:37:24

It's a call for Christians to rise, uniting pastors and congregations to boldly put our faith in action. Well, thousands of churches nationwide resonate with TPUSA's faith on wavering commitment to biblical truth.

01:37:34

Many find themselves at a crossroads seeking avenues for effective cultural engagement. They're the frontline, a mission to engage, equip and empower the

01:37:42

American church. Let's see. Uh, all right. So this is the, the, the TP faith is, is a, it's overtly

01:37:49

Christian. Our aim, okay, here it is. Our aim is to bring together Christians from all walks of life, both online and in physical gatherings,

01:37:56

United to defend biblical principles. Our events serve as a fortified line against the encroachment of cultural relativism, strengthening the church to stand both fearless and resolute.

01:38:05

Browse below to find upcoming events. Now, here's the thing I wanted to say about this, or people ask me about it.

01:38:10

Cause I, I went after it a bit online. I was like, this is kind of ridiculous. You know, Justin Peters was going hardcore, but I was just piggybacking off of them.

01:38:18

And I'm like, you know, this is ridiculous. Uh, and it's nothing against anyone personal, but it's like guys, maybe it's ignorance, but guys in the lineup,

01:38:28

TPUSA faith events consistently have an atheist, James Lindsay at their event. And then they got other guys, we'll just say a questionable, sometimes theological backgrounds, but, but the one that Blake, you know, the stands out the most is

01:38:44

James Lynn. Like that's just Blake. He doesn't even believe in God and the stated purpose, right?

01:38:49

I can understand somewhat if it's a political event, I could also understand somewhat like I've defended, um, even like the

01:38:57

T the, uh, G3 guys, right. When they hosted him for a podcast and then they went and spoke at a conference, uh, in Florida, uh, with him that I guess it wasn't sponsored by G it's confusing to me.

01:39:09

Cause they, sometimes these events would be like right next to each other and stuff, but it was a, um, it was a conference they spoke at James Lindsay was there and it was,

01:39:17

I guess it had a Christian theme, but, but, but like, I, so I, I understand wanting to benefit from someone who's an expert in a category.

01:39:28

So to give an example, like Paul Godfrey, who, you know, he's told me that he likes, he, he feels a kinship with Protestantism.

01:39:36

I don't think he's born again though. Right. But he's going to be a keynote at Christianity in the founding conference, by the way, you should come to that Christian and the founding .com

01:39:43

Christianity and the founding .com coming in a few weeks, uh, still sign up. We got the

01:39:48

VIP dinner. It's going to be great. We've got barbecue. You can meet me and meet all the other speakers. Check it out. Paul Godfrey is going to be there.

01:39:54

He's the one person I, that I suspected may not be a Christian, even though he highly admires Christianity.

01:40:01

But that's something that like, I, I kind of explained from the beginning that this conference is more of an academic exploration into American identity, history, heritage, past, and how

01:40:14

Christianity interacts with it. It's, there's like a very like basic function that this serves.

01:40:20

It's producing materials. So people understand the history of the United States better and how

01:40:26

Christianity interacts with that. And so to have someone like Paul Godfrey, who is very knowledgeable about the conservative tradition, talk about the, the elements of Protestantism that have affected and shaped us is

01:40:39

I think a good person to have. And, um, and I don't, I don't see any compromise in having someone like that there, but I'm planning on drawing lines too.

01:40:50

I'm planning on introducing him and making those separations, the necessary separations, because what you don't want to ever do is give the impression that someone is being platformed because of their credentials as a faithful Christian.

01:41:05

And that person is not even a believer in God. In the case of James Lindsay, you don't want to have fellowship with darkness, right?

01:41:14

That's the principle. You don't have to, you don't have something in common and you're not going to let people know you have something in common. So having a common enthusiasm for history and exploration into the historical record is different than what

01:41:28

TPUSA says here, which is our aim is to bring together Christians from all walks of life, united to defend biblical principles.

01:41:36

Uh, it's this, I think this is my critique. It creates confusion and I'm not,

01:41:42

I'm all into cobelligerency. I think James Lindsay is a bad guy for other reasons to have there.

01:41:47

Like he undermines the whole cause because he's, he's a liberal, but I really think that like, if you're going to do that, you have to be extra careful.

01:41:57

You make sure people know this is someone from the outside and here's the very specific purpose. We're inviting him in to do this, but when it's, when, when there's no distinctions, when there's no separations and it's, our aim is to bring together

01:42:09

Christians and it's online and in physical gap or, um, united to defend biblical principles and you're bringing

01:42:16

James Lindsay, what biblical principles is he defending? Uh, what he, and, and I don't know, it, it, it, it's weird.

01:42:26

And I think it, it creates that danger of light and darkness mingling and, and giving the impression someone's okay.

01:42:34

Just because they're kind of on our political side on an issue or something. Uh, you just gotta be super careful with that.

01:42:40

That's all I'm really advising is just being super careful with those kinds of things. I'm all for the pro -life movement.

01:42:45

You gotta have, you know, uh, Catholics are going to cooperate with you. You're cobelligerence, but don't get into a position where you're calling them brothers in Christ necessarily.

01:42:56

Like that's, this is something that Protestants, you know, I think there's some real people that, you know, are part of the

01:43:02

Roman Catholic church that are saved, but I think that's despite some of the doctrine. So you have to be careful with those things.

01:43:08

And there's a lot of carelessness and recklessness out there. So I'll take any questions and then we'll end the podcast. Oh, Anita Smith says

01:43:14

Calvin Robinson. I probably should. I was just at a conference. Calvin Robinson was there. I, I will tell you this. So what

01:43:20

I was told about that conference before I showed up was that this was a political thing. There wasn't going to be like any worship music.

01:43:28

Um, there, there was prayer, but that this was, this was intended for a primarily

01:43:35

Christian audience, but it was a political thing. And so I will say this too, about Calvin Robinson, there were lines drawn.

01:43:42

It became, in fact, I was on a panel with him and he said, he made a comment about wanting, uh, to be, uh, you know,

01:43:50

Catholics to be included. And I said, small C Catholic and people laugh, uh, because it, you know, it was obvious that there is a difference.

01:43:57

And I even highlighted that difference when I was sitting on a panel with him. So I do think that's important to do to highlight those differences, to make sure people know,

01:44:07

Hey, we're not, we may have similar, uh, cultural instincts, values agenda, but we are not saying that we believe the same things about scripture, about theology, that kind of thing.

01:44:22

Uh, in a cultural sense, I think Calvin Robinson's a Christian in that sense. Like if I was using the term

01:44:27

Christian as in like Christianization, but I get, I get, you know, I'm careful. There's a fundamentalist in me.

01:44:33

I'm very careful about doing that. I really do like the word Christian, especially when you're talking about individuals, okay.

01:44:39

To be describing someone who actually is born again and, or at least has a testimony that they're born again.

01:44:46

And that's where you apply the term. Um, again, I'm, I'm okay with Christian institutions and Christianization and cultural

01:44:54

Christianity, as long as we understand what those things mean. And we understand that doesn't mean everyone's born again in a society, just because you have church bells and invocations and manger scenes.

01:45:05

So, uh, anyway, that's my two cents on it. And if anyone has any follow -up questions or whatever, I'd be happy to, to engage those and consider, you know, if you have pushback, but, um,

01:45:14

I'm more just trying to say, let's have prudence on this stuff. And I don't know if TP USA guys ever listened, but guys don't do that, please.

01:45:22

And there's other reasons not to have James Lindsay there too. Like why in the world are you taking it? He's an atheist. Don't bring him to your

01:45:28

Christian events, but he can be at your political overtly political events. You literally created, you were a political organization that literally created

01:45:34

TP USA faith to do faith events for this explicit purpose of bringing

01:45:40

Christians together to defend biblical principles. Like you've made an extra thing specifically for Christians, and now you bring the atheists in there.

01:45:47

Why? Why do that creates confusion. All right. John Carter says, what was your favorite part of the conference?

01:45:54

Of course, talking to you and I won't blow your cover. Of course it was talking to John Carter.

01:46:00

That was my favorite part. Um, you know, I, I don't know. Like I, I love talking to people at these things. Honestly, that is why

01:46:06

I go more than anything else. It's because that is the connecting point for the people who support this podcast and the books and everything else.

01:46:13

And, um, and I'm grateful to all of you. I don't take any of that for granted. And, you know, I know some of you, uh, more people, right?

01:46:20

So you're not going to agree with every call I make, but, um, but we're pushing in a direction and the direction is to glorify

01:46:27

God, glorify our Lord and savior, Jesus Christ by obeying his law and being salt and light in the world in which he's created.

01:46:36

And that's, that's what we're pushing for. And part of that is identifying the corrupt institutions and doing institution building.

01:46:43

So I really like talking to people and, uh, and meeting them, uh, at conferences, um, wherever they are.

01:46:50

So that's probably it. Uh, all right. Uh, we're, we're almost, we got to stop guys.

01:46:56

I can't go for two hours, so I'm looking for the last few questions and then, um,

01:47:01

Oh, I missed this one. Betty asked if she attended another Christian school. You know, I don't remember if Audrey Hale attended another

01:47:08

Christian school or not. I'm sorry. I wish I remembered that. I, maybe someone in the chat can answer that. I thought she had gone to that school, uh, years before, but, uh,

01:47:20

Deuteronomy 18, 11 says, or cast spells or who's a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

01:47:28

I think this must be in relation to platforming people. Uh, yeah.

01:47:33

Yeah. I mean, if you got, which is there definitely don't platform those guys. Uh, if they're, uh, yeah.

01:47:41

Yeah. End of sentence. Don't platform those guys. No ladies allowed.

01:47:46

I don't understand what that's talking about. Sorry. At a conference at a late there's definitely late. Oh, at the

01:47:51

Christianity and the founding, you know, several people have asked me this. Can I, can I come to Christianity in the founding? I'm a,

01:47:57

I'm a lady. Of course you can. I think they're used to me saying for the men's retreats, it's men.

01:48:02

That's true, but that's the men's retreats. That's the only men's thing. So yes, of course we want ladies there.

01:48:08

Uh, can kids come? Yeah. I would say use discretion, right? So like if your kid is really loud and disrupting things, then probably ask you to,

01:48:16

Hey, like, could you take, take the kid outside for a little bit? I know people get sensitive and weird about that, but, um,

01:48:23

I, I have no problem asking those kinds of questions. I don't have any problem with your kid coming. You just got to make sure they're under control.

01:48:29

That's all. Uh, my, my own daughter every week at church has to be taken out, right?

01:48:35

Like what? So she's seeing, she's just trying to sing. She's not even one yet. She's like, ah, you know, during the songs, she thinks she's singing with us.

01:48:42

She's not. And then she can't settle down once it's time to pray. And so you just, you hear like every week, you know,

01:48:52

Lord, you know, in heaven, prayer starts and then you hear, ah, and then my wife's walking out the back every single week.

01:48:58

I've wondered whether we should just head that off and be like, let's, let's just songs over.

01:49:04

Let's just get her out of here. It's she's not going to calm down, but all right.

01:49:09

Uh, let's, let's end the podcast. That's it guys. Um, don't forget about the book against the waves,

01:49:15

Christian order in a liberal age, uh, against the waves book .com. And yeah, look for,

01:49:21

I'm going to, I'm going to start working probably next week, a little bit on, uh, on the, the series.

01:49:27

I mean, once a month we'll do a book. So I'm going to start with Edmund Burke and reflections on the revolution in France, and that'll be for patrons.

01:49:36

So, uh, if you want to be part of that patrion .com forward slash John Harris podcast and Christian in the founding .com