WWUTT 1760 Q&A The President’s Speech, the Episcopal Church’s Lampstand, Matt Chandler’s Discipline

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September 2, 2022

Responding to questions from listeners about President Biden's speech last night, whether the Episcopalian Church has the Holy Spirit, and if Matt Chandler's discipline is being handled in a biblical way. Visit wwutt.com for all our videos!

00:00: How should a Christian respond to Joe Biden's speech last night? Is the Episcopal Church a godly church?
00:07: And is the Village Church in Dallas handling Matt Chandler's discipline in a biblical way? The answers to these questions when we
00:14: Understand the Text. This is
00:25: When we Understand the Text, a daily Bible study in the Word of God that we may comprehend with all the saints how wide, how high, and how deep is the love of Christ.
00:35: Tell all your friends about our ministry at www .tet .com. Here once again is
00:41: Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky, who is not in studio with me today. I know two weeks in a row.
00:47: I know you're disappointed. I am too. But I think just like last week, it was a scheduling conflict.
00:52: Didn't I say we didn't plan that out well and that's why she wasn't able to be on last week?
00:57: Same sort of thing kind of happened this time. So yesterday was Zeke's first birthday.
01:05: Do you remember our youngest, Ezekiel, who was born a year ago, September 1st?
01:10: He's been on the program with us a few times. We would sit in here to record and we would have to like get done as quickly as we can because at any point he's going to wake up and you're going to hear his little cries and sounds on the program.
01:23: We've had him on a few times. So if you listen long enough, then you've heard Ezekiel before. Yeah, he turned a year old yesterday.
01:30: So we got him a smash cake, let him devour it. It was adorable. Yeah, we got lots of pictures and video, but I can't show it to you because, you know, it's a podcast.
01:41: And I bought him his first dump truck because every boy needs a dump truck. Also bought him his first dinosaur set because every every boy needs a good set of dinosaurs.
01:52: And there were some other gifts for him too. So we were all birth date out and it just got too late.
01:57: And here I am recording this episode of the Q &A by myself. On Friday, we take questions from the listeners and you can submit those questions to when we understand the text at gmail .com.
02:10: You know, I was on my way over to the church, coming back to the church, to my office to record this episode that I was just getting caught up on Joe Biden's speech last night.
02:21: President Biden, who did a speech in Philadelphia, I believe is where he delivered it from. I saw the pictures.
02:27: I wasn't I would not have even cared what it was that he said. Just catch it on the news the next day.
02:32: But I pulled up social media and I saw the pictures of him standing in front of, you know, that that red background that just look really it looks satanic.
02:42: I'm just going to say it. That's that's what it looked like. And he is an antichrist, along with Kamala Harris.
02:49: These two who are pro LGBTQ, both of them have officiated homosexual marriages, marriages in quotes.
02:56: Of course, it's not really a marriage. They have they're both pro abortion, probably the most pro abortion regime that there has ever been in the history of the
03:06: United States. Every Democrat that gets elected to the White House is more extreme in their abortion position than the previous, more extreme on their on the free love movement, the sexual revolution as well.
03:21: These guys are just more wicked than the next. So it's appropriate to call them an antichrist. And boy, they really picked the backdrop for it last night, decorating him in red.
03:31: The lighting that was on him even made it look like he had a little Hitler mustache underneath his nose.
03:37: I'm not trying to be hyperbolic. That's really what it looked like.
03:43: They did not choose that aesthetic well, or maybe they did. Maybe that was all intentional.
03:49: I don't know. Anyway. So I just happened to pick up parts of that speech.
03:55: I didn't listen to the whole thing, but I was catching the snippets that people were posting on social media. And man,
04:00: I got to tell you, that was one of the most divisive speeches, though I haven't listened to the whole thing.
04:05: What I have listened to was one of the most divisive things I have ever heard from a president of the
04:11: United States, said one news outlet, Biden repeatedly demonized millions of Americans for their political views, calling them extremists who present a threat to the
04:23: U .S. while simultaneously claiming that he wanted to unite the country.
04:30: You could not have more cognitive dissonance than Biden presented in that speech.
04:36: And then the red backdrop and looking so authoritarian. Even the
04:41: New York Times and the Huffington Post were criticizing the visual aesthetic that the
04:47: Biden team decided to go with for that particular speech. You know, back in in August of 2020,
04:56: Joe Biden tweeted the following. Here's my promise to you. If I'm elected president,
05:02: I will always choose to unite rather than divide. I'll take responsibility instead of blaming others.
05:12: That tweet did not age well. And even from the evangelicals for Biden, you know, that group of professing
05:19: Christians who claim to be supporting Joe Biden since he was running on a platform of unity and they didn't like the mean tweets that Trump made.
05:29: So they were supporting Biden. They all they all tried to tell us that Biden was going to be a unifier. He's done nothing of the sort and never has.
05:38: He's never had that reputation, has never done anything like that. But people were duped for a season.
05:44: They let themselves be fooled. And this is where we are with with the line being drawn in the sand and Biden declaring basically half the country the enemy.
05:55: Who knows what the results of this are going to be? But for sure, we need to be courageous about where we stand.
06:02: This is not a time to shrink back and be nuanced, where we need to speak boldly and clearly we should do so.
06:10: Our freedoms are being taken away under this authoritarian regime that is being forced upon us while we still have this freedom to exercise our religion and to declare the gospel of Jesus Christ.
06:23: We need to do that because nothing is going to save souls. But the gospel doesn't matter what political direction the
06:30: United States goes in. No one's going to be saved unless they hear the gospel and repent and turn to the
06:37: Lord Jesus Christ. And we also need to obey what Scripture tells us with regards to how we respond to our political leaders.
06:45: Notice first Timothy two, verse one, Paul says, first of all, then I exhort that petitions and prayers, requests and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life and all godliness and indignity.
07:07: This is good and it is acceptable in the sight of God, our savior, who desires all men to be saved, whether they're presidents or paupers, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
07:22: I added the presidents and paupers part in case you weren't aware. But anyway, so we have that instruction that we need to pray for our leaders.
07:28: We even need to pray for Biden and Kamala Harris. And I do pray that they would repent and come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ for the day of judgment after all of the lives they have ruined and the death they have wrought.
07:43: That day of judgment will not go well for them. And if they will not repent, may the
07:49: Lord tear them down. As we read in Daniel two, beginning in verse 20, let the name of God be blessed forever and ever for wisdom and might belong to him.
08:00: And he changes the times and the seasons. He removes kings and establishes kings.
08:07: He gives wisdom to wise men and knowledge to men of understanding. He reveals the deep and hidden things.
08:14: He knows what is in the darkness and the light dwells with him. To you,
08:20: O God of my fathers, I give thanks and praise for you have given me wisdom and might.
08:26: Even now you have made known to me what we sought from you, for you have made known to us the king's matter.
08:34: Heavenly Father, I pray for our leaders in this country, and I pray that they would have the fear of God, that they would turn from their wickedness to Christ, recognizing that judgment will fall upon them quickly if they do not.
08:48: This is such a crooked and wicked culture that we live in. The sexual immorality that is so incredibly rampant.
08:56: This administration that wants to devour children, the public school system that is doing that very thing, the entertainment that is being put in front of us, that wants to reprogram people and disassemble the family and indulge all kinds of lurid obsessions with the flesh.
09:14: God, may we not be enticed by these things. May we not desire these things.
09:19: We turn our eyes from wicked things and fix them upon the
09:25: Lord Jesus Christ. We hold out the word of life in the midst of a crooked and depraved generation, as it says in Philippians chapter 2, so that the wicked may know that forgiveness is found only in Christ, that they would be cleansed of their sins and be transferred from this kingdom of darkness, which is coming to destruction, to the kingdom of light, which will dwell forever with God.
09:53: Come quickly, Lord Jesus. May the wicked fall. May your righteousness triumph.
09:59: We pray in his name. Amen. All right, let's get to some questions here.
10:05: This first one is an email that comes from Jason, who says, good afternoon.
10:11: I posted a screenshot of your post about Episcopalians affirming gender affirming care.
10:17: Here's a sad response from my Episcopalian friend. Previously, she took my description of her being lukewarm.
10:24: That's out of Revelation 3, 15 to 16, and now proudly wears that label. P .S.
10:29: Thank you for your videos, sermons, and podcasts. They are truly enjoyable. Well, I thank you so much for that,
10:34: Jason. Okay, so first of all, what was it that was said on Twitter? The WhatGuy account, so you can find that one on Twitter, W -W -U -T -T -Guy, okay?
10:44: Here's what was shared on August the 19th. There's a quote from an article, the
10:50: Episcopal Church recently backed Episcopalians of any age seeking gender affirming care, unquote.
10:57: And then this comment, the Episcopalian Church had their lampstand removed long ago.
11:02: They are a synagogue of Satan. Flee for those who share in their sexual immorality. Jesus will destroy.
11:10: And then there's a reference to Revelation 2, 20 to 23, where Jesus gave a warning to the church in Thyatira to repent of the works of Jezebel, who indulges in sexual immorality and all who follow after her ways.
11:26: If you do not repent of her sexual immorality, Jesus says, I will come and remove your lampstand.
11:33: So the comment was made in that tweet on the WhatGuy account that the Episcopalian Church has already had their lampstand removed because they have been affirming of these things.
11:43: So Jason said that he took a screenshot of that and he shared it on Facebook. And then there was a conversation that he had with a woman named
11:52: Carly. And here's what Carly said. Well, I'm Episcopalian, and I'm pretty sure we aren't a synagogue of Satan.
11:59: Lot of good works are done through our church. Also, I stand by our church being supportive of all its members regardless.
12:07: Sad how Christians spend so much time criticizing. Jason said works don't lead to salvation and then quotes
12:14: Ephesians 2, 8 and 9. For by grace, you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves.
12:20: It is the gift of God, not as a result of works. So that no one may boast.
12:26: Jason goes on to say, additionally, performing gender affirming care is tantamount to mutilation of a human, something a nurse should never do.
12:35: By criticizing, I can assume that you are wrongly interpreting Matthew 7, 1. Please renounce the sin of destroying lives and bodies and repent.
12:45: Carly goes on to say, Jason, sorry that I 100 % respectfully disagree with you.
12:50: You can quote Bible verses all day, and it doesn't change my beliefs. So that's very telling, because what is
12:58: Romans 10, 17 say? Faith comes by hearing and hearing through the word of Christ. If she's going to say you can quote
13:04: Bible verses to me, and it won't change my beliefs. She is closing her ears to hearing the truth.
13:11: She goes on to say, but I'm just saying it gets really old to constantly have Christians bashing other
13:17: Christians. Just let it go and worry about yourself and your own salvation. And Jason responded.
13:24: You got it. Matthew 10, 14. What does Matthew 10, 14 say? And whoever does not receive you nor heed your words as you leave that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
13:37: Jason, I think you had some very biblical responses and were very loving toward Carly.
13:43: You wanted her to repent. You called her to repentance, but she has closed her ears. Listening to the truth, brother, she is worse than lukewarm.
13:52: She is nowhere near Jesus Christ, not a follower of his at all. She is indeed part of the synagogue of Satan and is following after the course of this world to her own destruction.
14:03: If she does not repent, I pray that the Holy Spirit changes her heart because I would not wish hell upon anybody.
14:11: I would desire that they would turn from their sin to the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. And so I encourage you to pray for Carly in that way as well.
14:19: And I'm sure you have. Thank you for sharing that exchange. Let's go to the next question here. This comes from Kathy.
14:26: So this is in response to the stuff that's going on with Matt Chandler. I don't know if you've heard about what's happened with Chandler recently.
14:33: This was just at his church this past Sunday, if I recall. Anyway, we'll cover all of that here. But Kathy said,
14:39: I'd like to hear your perspective on how well the biblical model of church discipline was followed in this case.
14:49: Thank you for your question, Kathy. Now, I'm going to play Chandler's comments. I'm not going to speculate on anything beyond what he says.
14:57: I know there's a lot of question marks and people have thought, you know, maybe there's more going on than meets the ear. I'm not going to speculate on that.
15:03: We're only going to evaluate this from the perspective, according to Kathy's question, was discipline, church discipline handled in a biblical way.
15:14: So first of all, here's Chandler's comments. And then I'm going to play his elders comments that followed this because then he gives he lays out kind of like, here's the process of everything we've gone through.
15:25: And here's what our expectation is going forward. Now, Chandler gets kind of choked up in this.
15:31: And there's a long, awkward pause. I'm just going to skip over that. But I'll break in here and make some comments as we go.
15:36: So here's Matt Chandler as he addressed the village church this past Sunday.
15:43: Hey, guys. I know it just feels like, oh, my gosh, what's coming? So so let me
15:48: I'm I'm the lead pastor of this church. I plan on being the lead pastor of this church for the next 20 years. All right, let me stop right there.
15:57: Already three, I have three criticisms just on these first few words in the way that this starts out.
16:03: And this all plays into the whole, you know, understanding is church discipline being followed in the right way here.
16:09: Number one, why is he getting to address the congregation? If the elders have found him guilty of something for which he needs to take a leave of absence, why does he get to be the one to stand before the congregation and say that rather than the elders informing the congregation?
16:27: So that's the first problem. Like if he's disqualified to have to step away for a while, he should not be in what would essentially be the pulpit position addressing the congregation and even leading them in prayer, which he's going to do here in a moment.
16:44: So that's the first problem. Second thing is I bleeped out something that Chandler said there.
16:50: And it's it's just not appropriate for any Christian to say, let alone a pastor.
16:56: The man is just not careful with his words. In fact, there's another statement that he's got coming up here in this address that I have to bleep out because I don't want it on this program.
17:05: This is supposed to be a family program. I would not say it. And I don't think a pastor should be exhibiting that.
17:12: And it demonstrates Chandler's carelessness with his words, which is really led into this whole situation that he's had this
17:20: DM conversation with a woman who is not his wife. And they've had, of course, joking with one another. Chandler can get inappropriate in some of the things that he says.
17:29: And some of you know, I used to listen to Chandler quite a bit. I haven't since he went woke ever since, like MLK 50, which was 2018.
17:38: I haven't listened to Chandler anymore since then, but I used to listen to him quite a bit. Now, funny thing is, even though I listen to Chandler, I would not listen to him around my kids because he has a tendency to yell.
17:51: And some of his comments aren't exactly things that I want my kids repeating.
17:56: I wouldn't necessarily put his speech on the level of like Mark Driscoll, but there's still some ways that he can be pretty inappropriate with his comments.
18:03: And he does that even here. And the third problem now, the third problem with this address is the way that he starts.
18:11: He begins by saying, I'm going to be the pastor here for the next 20 years.
18:18: So he's being asked to step down for something, apparently behavior that's bad enough that he has to step away.
18:25: And yet he's confident enough to claim that I'm going to be the pastor here for the next 20 years.
18:30: The way that opens, it's just not shepherding the congregation to prepare their hearts for what's coming.
18:38: It's almost like he's saying, hey, guys, I'm being removed, but it's not that big a deal. I'm still going to be your pastor.
18:44: I just don't think it was the most tactful way to step into that. Now, these three things, these three things that I've critiqued here at the very beginning, with the exception of why is he allowed to address the congregation at all?
18:56: The other two things are really wisdom critiques. I don't think that that Chandler is exercising wisdom in the other two things.
19:04: But the first one is poor wisdom on the part of the elders. Why is
19:09: Chandler allowed to address this congregation? Let's continue. Several months ago, a woman approached me outside here in the foyer.
19:19: She had some concerns for how I was DMing on Instagram with a friend of hers.
19:28: I didn't think I had done anything wrong in that. My wife knew that her husband knew that.
19:35: And yet there were a couple of things that she said that were disorienting to me.
19:40: And so I immediately came in the room. I found Chairman of the Elder Boards, Jason Swords, found
19:46: Josh Patterson, other lead pastor, and said, this is what this person just told me. And then
19:52: I went home. Lauren wasn't with me that night. I told Lauren, this is what was said to me tonight. Now, do you hear any problem with that so far?
20:02: I don't think so, right? In fact, I've done this very thing. I've had somebody make an accusation of me.
20:08: And I brought that accusation to my elders and just let them know, hey, I just want you guys to be informed that this was said of me and laid it before them.
20:18: And they test me according to it. And they say, no, we don't see that you're guilty of that. And it's not just somebody saying something in person.
20:25: It's even emails I'll get sometimes because somebody will either watch a video or hear a podcast or see a comment on social media.
20:33: And they'll send an email and say, hey, you are behaving in such a way that is unbecoming of a pastor.
20:38: And so even on some of those occasions, I've taken an email to an elder and said, hey, here's the email I got. I just want you to know that I received it.
20:45: And here's the accusation that's being made because even I have to be subject to my elders. A pastor is not over the elders.
20:52: He's one of the elders. The teaching pastor may be like a first among equals. But where Peter says in first Peter five five to be subject to the elders, even a pastor needs to be subject to his own elders.
21:06: Now, with regard to the process here, this woman that approached Chandler in the lobby and said,
21:13: I've seen a DM conversation that you've had with a friend of mine, and I don't think it's very appropriate. It sounds to me like the way that woman confronted the situation fits the biblical model that we have in Matthew 18, 15.
21:26: Now, if your brother sins, go and show him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won your brother.
21:33: So that was Chandler listening to this woman and took the matter to the elders.
21:39: Here's the accusation. The elders examined him on it. Now, going on in that process of church discipline, verse 16.
21:45: But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses, every fact may be confirmed.
21:53: In first Timothy chapter five, it says not to bring a charge against an elder, except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
21:59: So even with regards to elders, it needs to follow the same pattern, the same standard of discipline that anyone else in the church needs to follow.
22:09: Verse 17. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as the
22:17: Gentile or the tax collector. In other words, you would treat him as an unbeliever. This is somebody that needs to hear the gospel and repent and come to faith in Jesus Christ.
22:26: This is not someone who is a member of the body. So there's the process of church discipline that we have, according to Matthew 18 and even throwing in some first Timothy five and first Peter five as well.
22:38: Now, the women here are unnamed. The woman that confronted Chandler and the woman that Chandler was deeming with.
22:46: And in fact, if memory serves, I don't think we even know if either one of them attend the village church.
22:53: Now, the woman that confronted him in the lobby, she was obviously there that day. But was she a member of the village church?
23:00: Is the woman that Chandler was deeming? Is she just a mutual friend of some kind or is she a member of the village church?
23:08: I would think those things need to be said even without the women's identity.
23:15: I still think, doesn't it need to be said that that the these women were members?
23:22: And so they were cooperative in this process and everything. But were they members of the village church? Now, like I said, there's a lot of questions here that we don't have answered, and I'm not going to speculate on anything beyond what we hear.
23:33: But just as we're examining, was church discipline followed correctly? That's just some of the questions that I have.
23:40: So far, it sounds like we're kind of following the pattern the right way. But listen to where we go next.
23:47: From there, the elders began to look into because that's what they're supposed to do, because we cannot be a church where anyone is above the scriptures and above the high heavenly call into Christ Jesus.
24:03: And so they looked into the conversation between me and this other woman, and they had some concerns.
24:13: And those concerns were not that our messaging was romantic or sexual.
24:19: It was that our conversations were unguarded and unwise, and because I don't ever want there to be secrets between us.
24:28: The concerns were really about frequency and familiarity. We believe in brother -sister relationships here.
24:36: And yet there was a frequency that moved past that. And there was a familiarity that played itself out in coarse and foolish joking, some befitting of someone in my position as a lead pastor.
24:49: And as an elder, I'm held to a higher standard and fell short of that higher standard. I apologize.
24:56: There's a step in here that Chandler doesn't mention. It's the elder that follows up these comments.
25:01: He mentions what the next step was. The church lawyered up, but I'm going to wait to address that when we get to the elders comments here.
25:10: Now, Chandler is I mean, he's laying out. Here's everything that happened. Here is what the elders determined, which, again,
25:16: I think needs to come from the elders, not Chandler. I don't understand why he's the one addressing the congregation.
25:22: Now, the elders standing right behind him. It's not like he's on the stage having control of everything, but it's still unusual in a proper process of discipline toward a pastor, especially if he has to be removed and he's not going to be preaching for a while.
25:41: Then why does he get to be the one to stand in front of the congregation and inform him of these things, inform them of all of this rather than the elders doing that?
25:50: This really needs to come from the elders. So we're hearing here about a frequency and a familiarity that Chandler had with a woman who was not his wife.
26:00: And it had it led to some coarse joking, which probably was inappropriate for a person that is in his position.
26:07: But still, this is starting to sound like an HR problem, like it's sounding less like Chandler has done something that is disqualifying and more like, you know, something that you would hear at your job where a guy made an inappropriate comment to another woman.
26:24: And so now discipline, he needs to the human resources need to come in and he needs to be removed from his job and take a six week course on, you know, whatever.
26:34: This is what this is sounded like. It doesn't sound like the proper process of disciplining an elder who's actually done something unqualifying.
26:44: And in fact, when the elder and the other elder comes up and addresses these things, he's going to say that Chandler has not done anything disqualifying.
26:55: So we can agree that it's not appropriate for Chandler to be having these DM conversations with a woman who is not his wife and to be joking in a manner that it sounds like jokes that are not befitting of a pastor.
27:08: We can agree that that's a problem, but Chandler is not confessing a sin here. He's not saying
27:14: I've sinned and I've repented before God. He's not going to say that anywhere in this confession. And so, again, there's just a lot of things here that don't really fit what the model of disciplining an elder really should look like before a congregation continuing on.
27:29: So the elders have decided, and I think they're right, that my inability to see what
27:36: I was in probably has some revealing some unhealth in me.
27:43: And I don't know if that's tied to the pace I run or the difficulty of the last six, seven years, but I agree with them.
27:52: And so in their grace to me and my family, they've decided, and again,
27:58: I think they're right, to put me on a leave of absence, starting immediately from preaching and teaching at the village church.
28:10: If I'm on, I'm just really embarrassed, feel stupid. Thank you. Feel dumb, feel like I'm embarrassing my wife and kids, putting a ton of pressure on our staff, feel like I've fallen short for you.
28:24: And you might even be hearing, you might not be a Christian, you might be hearing me saying this, like, and that's where he makes the other inappropriate comment that I'm going to I'm going to cut out there.
28:32: So there were some longer pauses in there, too, as he kind of gets choked up and you hear some voices in the background.
28:38: You probably would not be able to catch it on the podcast, especially as you're driving. But I clipped that, too, since I removed the silent parts.
28:45: But there were people that were shouting things like, we love you, Matt. You're our pastor. You're human.
28:51: And again, that kind of response just does not fit with this disciplinary process.
28:57: I mean, this is a time when the congregation really needs to be self -reflective. They need to mourn over this, not give him attaboys, like examining their own selves and looking for the sins that they need to repent of, even though Chandler's not even repenting of sin here.
29:15: Again, that's the other weird part about all of this. But as it says in First Timothy five, if you have an elder that persists in sin, rebuke him in the sight of all so that everybody may stand in fear so that everyone recognizes if this can happen to a pastor, it can happen to me.
29:33: I'm certainly not going to escape from the sins that I've committed either so that people become self -reflective.
29:39: They turn from their sin to the Lord Jesus Christ and that the whole congregation would follow along with this.
29:45: That's the process as it pertains to disciplining an elder in the church.
29:51: Now, again, even though he's not confessing a sin, he does refer to what's happening as discipline.
29:56: I think that's in the next part here. So let's continue. But the word of God holds me to a certain standard, and I need to live into that.
30:07: And I fell short. And man, I'm apologizing to my family, to you, to all involved in this situation.
30:14: And some things I love. I love that our elders engaged at the level they did.
30:22: You know how easy this would have been to make it nothing and just let me not address whatever this is.
30:29: Now, I agree that this is not nothing. It's inappropriate behavior.
30:35: It's unbecoming of a pastor. Whether or not it deserves that he be removed from pastor,
30:41: I don't know. That's a judgment that's left to his elders, truly. But notice that at the end of this,
30:46: Chandler says, whatever this is, he calls it whatever this is. He doesn't even know what it is.
30:53: Why is he being asked to step down from the position of pastor preaching and teaching over whatever this is if he doesn't know what it is?
31:05: How does he confess and say, I'm just embarrassed by all of this if he doesn't know what he's supposed to be embarrassed about?
31:12: What's he really confessing here? Super grateful that the elders have loved us and walked with us the way that they have.
31:21: Super grateful for you. I'm super hopeful for what's to come in the future.
31:27: But I need to breathe. And that's both discipline, both discipline and development.
31:34: And so in time, forgive me. I love you eager for the other side of this.
31:41: Whatever God has for us. And so let me pray for us. And then Josh will step in and lead us in the service.
31:49: He makes it sound like that all of this happened because I just need a break. I need to breathe.
31:56: There's not actually a behavioral problem that he needs to be corrected for.
32:02: He just needs a break. And that's what the elders are giving him. Again, even though he uses he makes the statement, forgive me.
32:11: That doesn't mean that he's confessing something or that he's repenting of some kind of sin. He never calls it sin.
32:17: Now, I'm going to skip the prayer. Let's get to the comments from the elder that followed up Chandler's address to the congregation.
32:25: I'm skipping ahead a little bit, but here's the elder now describing to the congregation the process that was followed in order to confront
32:33: Chandler in these problems. The concerns were about Matt's use of social media, of one -on -one communication with a woman who was not his wife.
32:44: As Matt said, he immediately brought those concerns to Jason Swartz, who's the chairman of our elder board.
32:51: And to me, immediately that same night, went home and shared it with Lauren.
32:57: You need to know this, that Matt has wholeheartedly been submissive to the elders as overseers.
33:03: That's significant. That's important for you to know. He's never denied or resisted.
33:09: There's been times of confusion, a time when we needed to press into clarity. And so what we did in this is we commissioned an outside independent review of his messages.
33:21: This was conducted by an independent law firm. Matt provided full access to his cell phone, emails, and all technological platforms.
33:31: He fully cooperated. Okay, there we go. That's the part that I was looking for. So the way that church discipline is handled cannot look like the way the world would respond to an
33:42: HR problem in a secular job. And that's what it looks like the village church is doing.
33:49: Chandler came to the elders. He confessed something. They asked him some questions, and then they lawyered up.
33:55: And you heard him say it. They went and hired an outside third -party law firm.
34:00: They didn't go to, like, a lawyer in the congregation and just asked some legal advice.
34:06: They use the village church's dollars to hire an outside third -party firm to come in and do an investigation.
34:14: And this is being displayed before the entire world, by the way. That's one of the reasons why we're critiquing this.
34:21: We're not being spies and going into some church and finding something that we can make a podcast out of.
34:27: This was before everybody. It was all over the media. It was reported in Newsweek. It was reported in Fox News.
34:33: And I'm sure there were many other secular sites that were reporting on this as well. This was a nationwide story.
34:39: It was even trending on Twitter. So this isn't something that we're being overly critical of digging up dirt on someone.
34:46: This was a nationwide story. And everybody knows, because it was said before the world, that the village church lawyered up.
34:55: Chandler confessed something. The elders asked some questions, and then they hired lawyers, like a worldly business would do, a secular, your secular workplace would do.
35:06: Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6, does any one of you, when he has a case against another, dare to be tried before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
35:17: Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not worthy to constitute the smallest law courts?
35:28: Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
35:36: So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint those who are of no account in the church as your judges?
35:46: I say this to your shame. Is it really this way that there is not one wise man among you who will be able to pass judgment between his brothers?
35:59: That question right there in 1 Corinthians 6, 5, that's really an indictment against the elders of the village church.
36:06: Was there really not a wise man among them who could have judged this situation that they needed to go lawyer up?
36:14: Then all of the elders of the village church are unqualified to even do their jobs.
36:20: We need to have lawyers come in and handle a church disciplinary matter. And by the way, that's specifically what we're talking about here.
36:27: Something that could be handled just within the congregation. We're not talking about like a grace community church versus the state of California for the right to be able to keep their doors open during a fake pandemic.
36:42: That was that's something that you definitely want lawyers for when you have to go up against the state. But this is just something where a church should be able to handle this matter on their own and and by themselves.
36:57: This does not have to be a public thing before the world. But the village church made it that way.
37:03: Let's continue with the elders comments here. It's also important for you to know what the report found and what it did not find.
37:12: The investigators report led the elders to conclude that Matt did indeed violate our internal social media use policies.
37:19: And more importantly than that, while the overarching pattern of his life is one of being above reproach, he did fail to meet the first Timothy standard for an elder being above reproach here in this instance.
37:36: Yeah, that's really confusing. I mean, I know what he's saying there, but it's still confusing. So Chandler in his life is above reproach.
37:43: But in this particular circumstance, he's not above reproach. So we need to remove him as pastor. That just and, you know, notice that the elder says we came to this conclusion because of the lawyer's report, what the firm found.
37:59: The firm determined that Chandler was in violation of their social media use policy, and therefore he needs to be removed from preaching and teaching.
38:08: The elders didn't determine that. This outside law firm determined that. Come on.
38:15: You know what this really sounds like is that they fear man rather than God. This is this is the effect of the
38:22: Me Too movement. Because a woman came to Matt and accused him of something. They went and lawyered up because, hey, we don't want the
38:29: Me Too movement coming after us. So we better make sure that we have all our I's dotted and T's crossed the way that it would be appropriately accepted by the world.
38:40: So they're even leaving what Scripture says. They don't trust the sufficiency of Scripture, so they do it the way the world would want them to do it.
38:49: So the crocodile doesn't turn around and bite them. You know, I'm thinking of the I'm thinking of the Winston Churchill quote, an appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping that it will eat him last.
39:00: This is what it sounds like the village church is doing here. What did Paul say in Galatians as we've been going through Galatians in our series?
39:07: What did he say in Galatians 1 10? For am I now seeking the favor of men or of God, or am
39:15: I striving to please men? If I were trying to please men, I would not be a slave of Christ.
39:22: And my friends, I just have to say just just with respect to the process of church discipline that's not being followed here by the elders of the village church.
39:30: It sounds like they're trying to please men rather than seeking the favor of God.
39:37: Continuing on. As Matt said, we're strong proponents of brothers and sister relationships.
39:43: We believe in those because we believe the scriptures affirm those. It matters to us to fight for that in the best kind of way.
39:53: But there are boundaries around what's appropriate in these kinds of friendships. And a pastoral role requires greater awareness of those boundaries.
40:04: In this case, the frequency and the familiarity of the messages crossed a line.
40:12: They revealed that Matt did not use language appropriate for a pastor. And he did not model a behavior that we expect and that you expect a leader of our church to have.
40:23: But I want to be clear that the elders believe that this behavior was not disqualifying of an elder, and it did not rise to a level that would warrant more severe discipline.
40:35: It's not disqualifying of an elder, but it is disqualifying of an elder. You know what
40:41: I mean? He's being removed. He's not allowed to preach and teach during the season.
40:46: So apparently it is disqualifying of an elder. Now, again, if this was something that was just internal, if it was something that was going on at the village church and it wasn't before the world and they were not handling this in such a worldly way,
41:01: I would not be asking any questions about this. This is an internal thing. This is this is the village church.
41:08: They're an autonomous church. They can handle this on their own. If we have a matter that needs to be handled with an elder here at our church, at First Baptist Church Lindale, we're probably not going to tell you about it.
41:19: We'll tell everybody in the congregation, but you're not going to hear about it on this broadcast unless there's something that's making national news.
41:27: You know, when the thing that happened with Tom Buck's tweet and, you know, the whole
41:32: Kamala Harris and Jezebel thing, which got blown way out of proportion, of course, I talked about that on this program.
41:39: And I did so with his permission. Incidentally, I didn't tell him, you know, I didn't just spring it on you and then not tell him about it.
41:45: But as for anything that happens internally here as a church, that's nobody else's business but ours.
41:52: So if the village church was handling it in that way, I would not be asking questions about that. I mean, not in this fashion.
41:58: I might talk about it with my friends or something like that, but it wouldn't be it wouldn't be evaluating their process and going, boy, something is really messed up there.
42:06: Something's really going wrong over at the village church. If they determine that Chandler's been conducting himself in a way that is unbecoming of a pastor and he needs to step down for a season, then that's what they that's what they should do.
42:18: And that's totally up to them and and their polity as a church to exercise that for for the benefit of everybody.
42:26: The purpose of church discipline is the purity of the church. So you want to purify Matt, you want to purify the congregation.
42:33: Then, yeah, the church has absolutely the autonomy to do that within themselves, within that body.
42:42: But that's not what the village church did. They hired an outside firm and the church's dollars paid for it.
42:50: And really, if members of the church there at the village don't say something about that, if they don't push back on the elders about that, then that means the congregation has even become participants in this unbiblical process.
43:03: The investigators of the report concluded that this was not a romantic relationship and it was not a sexual relationship.
43:12: That's important. Okay, great. And I have no reason to suspect otherwise, but it should be sufficient to come from the elders.
43:23: If the church itself, like the village church, wouldn't buy that. If the congregation wouldn't buy that from the elders, oh, no, you're just trying to cover up for Matt.
43:34: Then there's all kinds of problems. There's really some serious divisive problems going on there.
43:40: But the whole church right now is not submitting to the authority of scripture.
43:46: They're submitting to the authority of the unbelieving world. The report also confirmed this kind of direct messaging communication was a unique case.
43:56: There were no other examples like it. The woman who Matt was messaging with did not request the independent investigation, but she did cooperate with the investigators and shared messages with them.
44:11: We're thankful for that. And again, we don't know if that person was a member of the village church.
44:17: Now, I'm not demanding that the elders have to tell us that, but I would hope that the village church would ask that question.
44:23: Like members of the church would say, was this woman actually a member here? Was the woman who confronted
44:29: Matt in the lobby? Was she a member of the village church? Like how internal was this really?
44:35: Or was all of this from the outside? An outsider confronted Matt. Matt was conversing with an outsider.
44:43: They had an outside firm come in and make judgments over this whole thing.
44:48: We're trying to keep certain information confidential because we do want to honor her desire not to be in the spotlight.
44:55: It's also important for you to know that she's certainly free to speak if and when she chooses to do so.
45:02: So while the elders believe that this did not rise to the level of disqualification, we do hold elders to a higher standard because the scriptures hold elders to a higher standard.
45:14: Matt's leave of absence is both disciplinary and developmental, which allows him time to focus on growing greater awareness in this area.
45:24: He needs it. How long will that time be? The elders have laid out some expectations for Matt and will dictate the timeline for his return to the pulpit.
45:36: The health of our church is our top priority and we're committed to assisting and development for care for everyone involved, including
45:44: Matt. Once again, he says that this was not disqualifying, but he's being removed from preaching and teaching.
45:52: Now, I get what he means by that. He means that that Chandler did not do something so bad that he can never be a pastor again.
46:00: But it was apparently bad enough that he can't be a preacher and a teacher right now. And yet he says he says it's disciplinary, but he has not called it sin and Chandler never called it sin.
46:15: And if Chandler is going to do anything that is not above reproach, like is now unqualifying according to the standards of First Timothy three, one through seven, if he needs to be removed because of behavior like that, then he has to have sinned.
46:32: Yes, elders are held to a higher standard. James three, one, not many of you should aspire to become teachers, my brothers, because you know that teachers will be judged with greater strictness.
46:44: But but the character of an elder should still be that of any
46:49: Christian, like a person who is an elder or a pastor. They're a mature
46:54: Christian, but they are modeling something that any Christian should want to aspire to.
47:01: And if there is an area where the pastor is falling short, then he's sinning.
47:07: What does sin mean? The word sin means to miss the mark. And if the pastor is missing the mark of the standard that he is supposed to fulfill and therefore set for the rest of the congregation, then he's sinning.
47:22: And they need to say that. And they're not saying that. They're not saying that Chandler has sinned.
47:28: Chandler is not saying that he has sinned. And I'm repenting of that. And I'm desiring to walk in holiness and righteousness and be a greater model for my congregation, for the people that I have been entrusted to shepherd.
47:40: Remember that Moses in Numbers chapter 20 was supposed to speak to the rock that water may come forth.
47:49: Numbers 20, verse eight. The Lord said to Moses, take the rod and you and your brother
47:54: Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes that it may yield its water.
48:01: You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts let their animals drink.
48:10: That's the instruction that's given to Moses so that they may see it is by the power of the word that the water comes forth.
48:17: And we have it described for us in scripture that the word of the Lord is water is purifying, cleansing water.
48:25: So that's what that was supposed to demonstrate with Moses speaking to the rock. But did Moses do that?
48:32: Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock and he said to them, listen, now you rebels, shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?
48:40: Then Moses raised his high hand and struck the rock twice with his rod and water came forth abundantly and the congregation and their beasts drank.
48:51: But Yahweh said to Moses and Aaron, because you did not believe me to treat me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which
49:03: I have given them. Those were the waters of Meribah because the sons of Israel contended with Yahweh and he proved himself holy among them.
49:13: Now, incidentally, Paul says that Christ was in the rock at Meribah. So this was an unholy thing that Moses had done.
49:22: He sinned. He disobeyed the word of God. Now, Aaron is right there with him.
49:28: Aaron is not the one that struck the rock. Moses was, and yet Aaron got punished too.
49:35: He was every bit as complicit in that act, disobeying God and striking the rock that water would come forth as Moses was.
49:44: So here we have this situation with Chandler and his elders. The elders are not the ones that have had this inappropriate deeming conversation with this other woman.
49:54: That's Chandler that has done that. But the elders are not submitting to the authority of the word of God. And so they are just as guilty in this process, this unbiblical process of church discipline.
50:07: They're not following what scripture says. They're going more with what the world would do in a situation such as this.
50:13: And so they too are disobeying the word of God. So let me put this forward to you and understand that I'm saying this not as a person who is trying to lord myself over anybody else.
50:27: I'm saying this as a preacher of the word who approaches this with fear and trembling every time
50:34: I teach it. The elders of the village church are sinning and Matt Chandler is sinning, and they need to confess that before their congregation so that they may lead this people rightly, which they are not doing.
50:48: And that's my assessment, my biblical assessment, according to the question that you asked,
50:54: Kathy, and I appreciate you submitting that. If anybody else has any questions that they would like to submit to the broadcast, you can send that to when we understand the text at Gmail dot com.
51:05: Let me conclude here with prayer. We'll pray for Matt. We'll pray for the elders of the village church, and we'll pray for that church as well.
51:13: I'm not saying that Matt Chandler is not a Christian. I'm not saying the elders are not Christians. I'm not declaring anathema upon that church, but I am saying that they are not demonstrating in this process of fear of God.
51:25: It looks more like they're demonstrating the fear of man. And so may that be a warning to us that we measure all things according to the word of God.
51:35: We examine, we test everything, as Paul instructs in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5. But we do that according to what
51:41: God's word says, not as the world would do, but to honor the
51:46: Lord. Heavenly Father, we thank you for the word that you have given to us, the
51:52: Bible, that we may know your will, that we may know your commands. We know what delights you and may we desire to do it.
52:01: And I pray for the village church, the kind of influence they have, not just in Dallas, not just in Texas, but even around the world.
52:08: And I pray that they would submit to the word of God rightly and do that for one another.
52:15: Chandler and the elders would do that for each other, and they would also do that for their congregation and lead this people in this word, for it is only by this word that we can be saved and sanctified.
52:28: Repeating again, Romans 10, 17, you have said to us, faith comes by hearing and hearing through the word of Christ and Jesus praying in John 17, 17, sanctify them in your truth.
52:41: Your word is truth. So we come to salvation because we have heard the word of God proclaimed to us, and we grow in holiness and righteousness when we hear the word and do what it says.
52:54: Lead the village church in this, lead us and guide us in these things as well. And it's in Jesus' name that we pray.
53:02: Amen. This is When We Understand the Text with Pastor Gabe Hughes. There are lots of great
53:07: Bible teaching programs on the web, and we thank you for selecting ours. But this is no replacement for regular fellowship with a church family.
53:14: Find a good, gospel -teaching, Christ -centered church to worship with this weekend, and join us again Monday for more