Road Trip DL: About Asking Your Debate Opponent to Actually Interpret a Bible Verse

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:31

Well greens welcome to the dividing line, my name is James white coming to you from I don't know, you know, it's funny

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I thought that This is gonna be the first time

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I ever stayed at this Campground that I'm at because that it didn't it didn't ring any bells

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And as soon as I pulled off the road, I'm going This looks familiar.

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I've stayed here twice I think this is my third time and I do know that once I pulled in here

01:00

You can pay like ten dollars to drop tanks to dump your tanks. I Don't remember why?

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Where I was that made that Helpful to me. But anyways, so here I am and There's one road.

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Oh, man, I you don't have to work hard to throw there, but the Actual I -40 is

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I think just over that direction. So yeah, you may hear the song of the koa campground. I Don't think yeah,

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I just see trucks going by there. That's about three tosses of a stones. That's not too bad. Um, I Don't think there's a railroad track nearby and I don't think there's an airport nearby, but we are within 300 yards of the of the freeway.

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So yeah, that's I'm hoping honestly To be able to make sense today

01:52

Because I'll just tell you straight up we lost a kitty today in my family and You know, it's so weird

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When it happens fast and that's normally how it happens, you know something happens to get hit by a car or you know, all of a sudden to get fall over sick or Get shot by the

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BB gun or who knows and it just happens so fast. There's no dreading. There's no, you know, it just boom and When I left our little coper 15 years old

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The younger brother of Darth who died last summer where I held him while he died We had three we called them the floof council and they had started doing this thing we're like right at sunset they'd all go out in the front yard and we'd go out there and sit there and watch them playing and and Cobra would just sit there and watch the other two primarily though Once in a while Dini would jump on top of him because Dini's a kitten and that's what kittens do

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And they'd wrestle around and stuff and then he'd climb up a tree of Dini would not Cobra He used to do that.

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And in fact Cobra is the one who years ago probably 13 years ago a couple of times brought still living pigeons into the house to then let them go

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Fly around. I don't know. I'll never forget that one Yeah, you have any idea how hard it is to pick up pigeon feathers when they've been flying

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Thanks Cobra appreciate that try killing it next time, you know, anyway but we would have the floof council meeting out there and and Dini and and Sophie would be chasing each other around and the day before I left

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I had my warm clothes sitting out on the bed and and Cobra's Cobra's Kneading on it and grousing at me because he'd oh he would love to talk and sometimes he just talk and talk that drives you crazy and he's just in everything's fine and Last Friday, my wife tells me

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I think Cobra's not feeling good and Then he gets real lethargic and he stops eating and drinking and she's like I where should

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I take him? so this morning she got him in the carrier gets him to the vet and he has feeling leukemia and He's gone.

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I mean he was we've I found that out as I got into the truck to pull out this morning and By before I got here and this is a short trip, there's a short leg of the trip shortest of this trip he was gone and At least she she held the phone there and I was able to say bye -bye that's not the same thing as being there, but happens fast happens really really fast and I Don't know if we are going to reconstitute the floof council in the future, you know, you never know

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I mean we got Dini because he was found in packing material at my son's work they found the three kittens hiding in these

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Packing material so you never know what what might happen. But anyways, so I'm hoping

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I will be somewhat coherent It's been a bit of a rough day around the white family and So, there you go

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Well, we'll see what goes of all that. I Wanted to do this program day because tomorrow is a long leg and I Want to make sure to get the program in because I don't know that I'm gonna get to Conway because that's where I'm heading is

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I'll be getting to the seminary tomorrow. The class starts Thursday And I just just realized my brother there in Conway contacted me somehow

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Forgive me When I meet people at conferences they will talk about how they've been listening to me for years and years and years the thing that freaks them out is

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I'm the same at The conference or in my presentations as I am on the dividing line. There's no I'm not smart enough to have different personalities and So I'll sometimes you know throw things out and Chase a rabbit and and you know have all the rest is kind of stuff happening.

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Um There's a friend of mine in Conway that contacted me

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About working on the truck. He's an expert mechanic need to know if we need to do anything on the truck.

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I can't tell exactly how you know, you get this thing on the splash screen of your phone and Then it disappears and then you try to find it and it's like Huh?

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What's that a text message? Was that a I am was that was that a standard text message?

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Was that an Apple text message? Was that something in Facebook? Was that a DM in?

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Excuse me. Wow, where'd that come from? Yes, I stopped smoking. Um, don't worry.

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I don't It frustrates me Because I'll see something and Then I can't find it

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It's gone. I think there's two we were never designed

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To have this much data coming at us from so many different channels. We just weren't

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It's um, yeah, it's weird So I Need to try to find that again to say to my friend.

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Nope. Actually the trucks in great shape Everything's working Everything on the RV is fine

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You know, I I may actually just be able to bring the RV home and then park it in our parking place rather than taking it

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To the RV shop, which is what we've been doing the last couple of trips to have stuff worked on Um, who knows well, we'll see

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I mean it's nice to get it cleaned and flushing the tanks always helps and stuff like that, but Everything's working.

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All the electronics are working the air conditioners, right? I have to have the AC running right now It's only doing the fan.

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But yeah, so great. Okay. Anyway, I wanted to get this program in Um because I don't know once I get to Conway I'm gonna be very very very busy

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The class is an intensive class. So it's all day long and When you get done teaching

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From like 8 in the morning till 4 30 in the afternoon There's not much left of you.

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You you don't want to be doing almost anything else and So I'm not real big

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I'm like going out and eating afterwards because everybody just wants to keep me talking I didn't By the end of those by that third that by Saturday noon when we wrap up My voice will be my voice isn't all that good right now.

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So it's really gonna be a mess by them so anyway want to get this program in because I am absolutely astounded at What has happened in the just couple days in the in Saturday night

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Sunday and through today and I'm sure I've missed some stuff I've seen I've seen rich quoting some stuff that I just simply haven't had the time or the energy

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Once I got here and got set up To even go track down from Layton flowers

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But I I I'm a little astonished at What happened in the debate on Saturday afternoon in?

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Tullahoma, Tennessee For those who do not know I did the third of the five debates.

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Oh, by the way, there's my nope shirt I needed to make sure it see I told the fellow in Tullahoma I would wear the t -shirt, but I would always wear underneath something else because Men should not wear t -shirts after age 25

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Just not right. Anyway, just t -shirts you can wear a t -shirt underneath something else, but Yes, the nope program.

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Nope. I have a friend who criticizes me for saying nope to him all the time and But I do that purposely just to drive him crazy

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I do a lot of things purposely to drive that particular individual crazy because it's fun to do We have one of the most amazingly weird relationships

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Exists primarily electronically, but we see each other yearly and it just sort of continues on and he's a dear brother and it's great but anyway,

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I Say nope to him all the time I've just never had anything happen. Like what has happened over the past 48 hours

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I've thought back over the debates and you know when

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When we had the don't quote me bro incident with Dan Barker You know when he literally appealed to the moderator to stop me in the middle of my presentation

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Because I was quoting from his own published works Yeah, but I didn't present that here

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Wow Clear evidence that he realized that what he was selling in the foyer of the church was a bunch of do we

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Yeah, that was that was a good one but in this instance What happened?

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Is that we had a debate with Jason Breda. Now Jason Breda is a nice guy Much better looking than I am that's for sure

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Well spoken and that was a step up from the year before where we had

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Thomas Ross who just talked so fast that it was Obvious to everyone in the audience.

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He didn't care that they were there Jason Breda was trying to communicate to the audience and Not do the

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FedEx talking guy thing so that was improvement from the year before But the problem is that from a debate perspective and I don't know if our

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Debate coach friend is going to review this or if he could even survive reviewing this particular debate from a official debate perspective

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There really wasn't one It was pretty much on the same level argument wise as the

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Steve Tassi debate I Predicted what was gonna happen

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We had been told That the provisionists especially Layton flowers who attended part of the conference anyways

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And was there to support? Jason Breda. I do have a cough button there

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I just turn it on and off I'll try to remember you as much as I can That they had been

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Funneling what they considered would be the best way of argument arguing to Jason Breda and So I predicted that there would be a lot of David Allen stuff

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If you talked anything about the specific audiences mentioned in Scripture The church the sheep so like that then you'd get the standard

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David. Oh, what does it mean? It's only them and So I expected all that I knew

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Problem was my opening presentation

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Could have been completely predicted If they had wanted to do so It's interesting after the debate

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I think Here this morning or last night

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I actually Went how much space did

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I spend in the potter's freedom on? Hebrews 7 8 9 10

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Especially 7 24 25 Romans 8 I Couldn't remember.

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I wrote it almost a quarter of a century ago, and I don't go back and necessarily read these things over and over again so I popped open an electronic copy that I have and If you watch the debate it'll be posted fairly quickly

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I do have the audio I asked for the audio so we can establish exactly what was said because there has been a controversy that has arisen but it'll all be out there very soon and If you watch the debate you will see that in my opening statement,

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I do not have any notes I am simply using my my Johnny Cash legacy standard

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Bible and I am making a Biblically based presentation

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Of what I've said over and over and over again Trinitarian harmony the gospel Specifically The idea that the

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Father the Son the Spirit are Working in perfect harmony with one another to accomplish the exact same end

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And That The relationship

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Between the sacrificial work of Christ as high priest and His intercessory work as high priest

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All which is a part of his mediatorship that Though the ones for whom

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Christ intercedes before the Father the same ones for whom he died That if you say that he died for a different group than those from whom he he intercedes and that's

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What Jason brother was saying? He's he actually said at one point That Christ intercessory work does not begin until a person believes and So it's our believing that enables

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Christ to intercede Rather than there being rather than you following the high priestly paradigm in regards to who

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Christ tones for and Who he then intercedes for so I Pretty much split my time between Romans 8

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Golden chain then the courtroom scene God's elect who shall separate us

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Walk through there. And of course on this program. We've done that many times for we've done that in response to David Allen we've taken his most scholarly articles and Materials and have walked through them and refuted them directly on this program and Walked through them in depth.

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So that's what I did now that would mean that After the opening statement and Bretta's opening statement was almost completely devoid of biblical content it was very much a

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David Allen Disputing what the reform view of the atonement is. This is all stuff from Tony The guy that gave all the material to David Allen back when

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David Allen was tasked with dealing with the reform doctrine of The atonement what was that 2010 at the

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John 316 conference? Whatever year that was Same stuff. I Could recognize a lot of that stuff in his opening statement it

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It did not present a coherent perspective and it was nowhere near exegetically based at all and so you immediately have this contrast between the two and In fact if you watch the clock

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Um, I think we had was it 10 minute or 15 minute rebuttals

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May have been They've been 2015 Whatever it was.

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I didn't use all my rebuttal time. I didn't have anything to rebut. I mean I went back over certain basic statements, but There hadn't been a coherent compelling

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Counter argument presented there been scatter shots here there and everywhere but as Far as actually interacting with a position.

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Well, what was I supposed to do or say? So When we get to the rebuttal his rebuttal this is where he should be dealing with my positive presentation

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He should be dealing with Romans 8 he should be dealing with Hebrews.

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Now. What do you done? Is he presented this? Never heard of before never ever heard of so it is isn't his opening

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He spends a bunch of time asserting that the Jews are the primary audience of Romans 1 through 8 and then it shifts to the

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Gentile and I'm like The What Jewish Christians or Jews as a whole because there's all sorts of stuff in Romans About where the

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Jews are referred to in Romans 1 through 8 the Jews are referred to in third person not second person

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So Romans 3 1, you know, what advantage has the Jews? Is is asked by Paul if he's addressing the

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Jews Then what advantage has the Jew or what value what is the value of circumcision great near respect first of all that they were in trust with the oracles of God, so Is that a different are those different Jews?

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then the believing Jews in Rome and And behind all this was well, you know after the expulsion of the

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Jews Beginning of problems around 8051 and the the Jews are coming back and there's all this speculation about what

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Jews are returning and stuff like this I'm just going what is this and the only thing

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I could come up with was that he's basically saying that when we get to Romans 8 and It's talking about who should bring a charge against God's like he even said that's primarily about the

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Jews and I'm like what what? I mean,

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I've just never heard this before not I don't know of it in any meaningfully Orthodox commentary on Romans or Anything like it at all

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This is addressed the church at Rome the whole point of Saying for example in Romans chapter 3 there is no

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Distinction for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God is to say there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles All stand equally condemned before the bar of God.

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That's what Romans 1 2 in the beginning of 3 is all about and So, I mean I'm sitting here going

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Am I really hearing this it is the level of desperation? So deep that you'd be willing to fundamentally

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Disconnect Romans From the purpose that has been understood Down through the centuries in regards to here

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Paul is writing to the church at Rome and This is as it's been described by many people and beginning their commentaries on Romans.

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It's the gospel according to Paul It is let's lay this all out and let's send it to the church

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Where if they have it in their possession? because of all the correspondence the

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Militarily governmentally Economically all roads lead to Rome and hence all roads lead from Rome as well.

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And that means if you have a sound Church there in Rome then what's there is gonna filter out and so I'm sitting here.

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I mean, I honestly I'm going what is being said here because there wasn't he wasn't exegetically

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Disputing he's saying. Oh, you're just starting from the wrong foundation. So he's doing he's bringing in an overarching claim that's not derived from the text, but it's meant to change the meaning of the text and I've seen this many many times before it's what

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Joseph Smith did it's what Charles Taze Russell did it's what Ellen G white did

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This is how cults start this is how cults defend their

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Rejection of certain biblical doctrines And so I'm sitting here going so are you literally is he literally saying in his opening that Romans 8

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Can't make these kind that you can't make this kind of application Because this is only being addressed to the

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Jews And so I get my rebuttal and I'm like, this is one of the most dangerous things I've ever heard. What what?

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What? so the spirit only intercedes intercedes for For Jewish Christians With groanings cannot be uttered.

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Sorry. I've got the windows open and I'm maybe in some area where there's all sorts of stuff That's really getting at me or it's just simply the same stuff.

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I've had for eight weeks now. Um, I just Really trying to figure it out.

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What's what's going on? So when he gets back up? Oh, no. No, there's there's stuff That's applicable to Gentiles. Well please give us a consistent hermeneutical principle whereby you will be able to determine what is

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For the Jews and what is for the Gentiles and what's for both and you're not gonna get anything like that so he gets up in the rebuttal and And he does not rebut any of the exegesis in Romans 18, it simply says overarchingly

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Well, it's about Jews and it's like I hadn't even spent half of my opening statement in Hebrews It just it just doesn't even get touched.

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It's like it's like I I had spoken in tongues and no one had any idea what I said There was there was no rebuttal on his part of my opening statement so on any

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Scholastic debate ground the debate was pretty much over at that point if you do not even try to make a

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Good effort a good faith effort to refute what the other side is saying in their main points

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If you just try to ignore that they're there The debates pretty much done at that point so We get to The cross -examination period which wasn't nearly long enough, but even then

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Once I got to a certain point I almost felt like going and so much for that why are we even bothering with this?

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so we get to cross -examination and we're I ask questions first and If you watched

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The purgatory debate for example Which had twice the amount of cross -examination that we had in this debate

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What I want to do and what I've done in debate after debate after debate I want to get into the text of Scripture and I want to Press my opponent to be consistent in handling

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Scripture and to illustrate when they're not because if we're debating then my assumption is

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They're not actually deriving their their beliefs from Scripture. They if they're not

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Christians obvious that's case if they're In some way shape, you know dealing with Roman Catholicism they have other authorities

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Things like that. I want to get into the text of Scripture and to demonstrate the inconsistency of their own handling of Scripture and so We talked a little bit about Romans 8 at first I was trying to again asking questions about where do you get this stuff about this is only the

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Jews and and then I started talking about intercession and I went to Hebrews 7 and so Let's listen to this

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I'm gonna play the section Because this is where all the controversy has come up That this was an absurd question to ask

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I was asking about an obscure text And that you shouldn't expect someone to be able to give an answer in a debate to a question like this

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Literally, that's what was said. So let's see if I can make this work, right? And let's listen to what?

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What took place in Hebrews chapter 7?

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Did I did I miss while I was taking notes on did I miss your response to Hebrews 7 8 9 and 10 or Did you choose not to address it?

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No, I didn't it's not that I didn't choose to address it. But But I think that if you if I'm coming from the position that the intercession the intercessory work is not

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Understand the the logic and the consistency that you want to have within the systematic in which you hold to and so I do like You know want to say like that's good that you want to be consistent in the theology in which you have but I don't see

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But we're working off of a different foundation so if if Jesus from eternity past if God did decree that there is a condition that needs to be met and that condition is faith and he's given

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Us the ability of the will to then exercise faith on Christ, which is not a work then we then through Christ are now redeemed because we have met that condition and So he was the whole argument that you that you want to you're going on and on and on Please just answer my questions

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Hebrews 7 25 says Therefore he is able to save forever those who draw near to God through him since he always lives to make intercession for them do you see a

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Connection between the giving of intercession and the accomplishment of saving

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Ponte less to the uttermost or forever The way that you're connecting it no, no okay, then please look look at Hebrews 7 25 and Exegete that verse for me.

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Tell me tell me how Why the first part of the sentence is not connected to the last part of the sentence.

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Yeah Okay now There's the question

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I asked I Had just asked him and I'm gonna play his response

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But I think people need to understand And if you're not looking at the text,

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I think it would be wise if you did Hebrews 7 24 through 25 and I Oh, let me see if I can

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Yeah, there we go Let me switch over this let me see it no not the still

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Yeah, the one side is a lot bigger, but I can point to stuff. So I'll go ahead and I'll go ahead and use it and I really doubt this is gonna work.

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But hey Look at that. It covers half of what I want, but I can scroll up on that.

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Uh So It's speaking of Christ and his

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Having his priesthood right here is the term upper

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Abbot on But since he but since this one abides forever

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Upper Abbot on a kite ain Here was here. He he here rose soon.

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Ain He holds his priesthood Set three times what you're trying not to cough.

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He holds his priesthood upper Abbot on without a successor now the day before the day before Yes, I had spoken and I went through some of this stuff.

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I Went into more depth in some areas in the debate and less depth and those Excuse me

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His priesthood is unlike the priesthood of the

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Aaronic priests Because they're kept by death from continuing but he holds his priesthood

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Can be translated permanently or without successor. I went into some of the detail the day before this is relevant to the

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Mormons And they're claimed the Amalekitic priesthood and all that stuff But verse 25 is what

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I was focusing on hence He is able so design ice top on tell us do not

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I he is able to save a particular group

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The ones drawing near through him to God In that he's always living zone

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Ice taught with an infinitive Very common in Paul I Don't think that this particular

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You know, my theory is Paul preached this in Hebrew and Luke wrote down in Greek I saw with the infinitive

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Why is he able to Save forever or to the uttermost because He ever lives to make intercession

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Who pair out own? I'm sorry. I left that up there who pair out own for them

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So the intercession is for a specific people. It is not universal I would argue that the intercession of the high priest is identical to the audience of the sacrifice of the high priest performance and if you if you're gonna say

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That the high priest intercedes for a different group Then those for whom the sacrifice is made then you have to prove that You can't just assert it.

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You've got to prove it. I've never seen anybody even try So My question that I asked so you hear, you know,

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I understand Cross examination debates are moving along good clip

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You have to think on your feet you you've got to hear what's being said you sort of have to be anticipating and You've got to know the subject well enough to know that where the questions are coming from but This is a verse

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He He went after John Owen accused him of eisegesis

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I've had to disagree with John Owen on a few points, but man you do so with fear and trepidation if you know what you're doing and I have no reason to believe all due respect to Jason Brett as a nice guy.

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He can't read Greek he does not know the language and He has documented

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His less than first semester understanding of Fundamentally basic things that John Owen knew when he was a teenager

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Okay So he's got no ground at all to be accusing or to even

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Substantiate an accusation against Owen Anyway, so here was the question you heard me

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Heard me say verse 25. He is able to save Pontellus forever to the uttermost

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What's the relationship? between Christ's intercession and You'll you'll notice this is verse 25 over here.

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This is a sentence diagram. Not my sentence diagram I Just put myself down in the little corner down there

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It might help if I did yeah now we don't have that in the way

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So I'm down the corner now and that's and I'm little teeny tiny down there and that's fine Here are the these sentence diagrams are

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I don't I didn't do these Okay So don't don't try to say oh you just did that so it supports your position

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No, this is this is a resource you can purchase in accordance. It's and you can buy it in Lagos in a number of different resources

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And not every sentence diagram is going to end up being identical because there are interpretive elements in it

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But this is somebody else's and Most people can't read sentence diagrams and I can assure you that Jason Breda cannot read this sentence diagram either

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Again you're being just no We go back and listen to the hours.

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We did where he's saying the Greek proves Calvin isn't wrong And it's like no you don't know

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Greek And you're wrong about what you're saying and you're confused about the subjunctive and you don't know what a present tense verb is and there's

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Just all sorts of stuff here Here is verse 25

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And I wish we still taught this stuff in school I hope all you home schooling moms and stuff are teaching your kids to sentence sentence diagram because they may hate it now

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But they will thank you at a time in the future so Therefore he

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Christ Dunati is able to do what well the the direct

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Object he is able so design to save Even unto the uttermost

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Modifying phrase that goes with that and then here you have who is able to save the ones drawing near through him to God so here's the first part of the sentence is

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Here but then you have the second part as A and this is this is what my question was.

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How does this part? Relate to this part and specifically.

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How does zone ponta day? always living ice tall with the infinitive

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To intercede who pair our tone now our tone is Wrapping up what's right here those drawing near to God through him

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So they're the ones that are he is interceding for but what is it about this?

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That is related to this ability to save ice top

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Ponte less now

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This was central to my assertion This was central to my opening statement This is central to what

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Owen has said, this is central to what I wrote in in Potter's Freedom If you're going to debate me on this topic and you've had months to prepare

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Don't come back and say well, I didn't know you're gonna say what an obscure text is that? I'm sorry

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It's The diet it's it's in print folks. It's documented electronically in print whatever else you want

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It's right there and I've already posted on Twitter what I wrote in in Potter's Freedom I post on Twitter just one example

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From the death of death and death of Christ John Owen. I think it was pages somewhere between 30 and 32

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So it was early on the book So this isn't some hidden thing

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If you're gonna debate this topic you have to be prepared to deal with this It's been presented in the opening statement If you cannot deal with the positive sides opening statement you lose the debate

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It doesn't matter what else you say. It doesn't matter what else you throw out if you cannot respond to their

40:16

Argumentation you lose the debate That's how it works and so the question was the question literally was

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Because you could you could argue there's sort of a semi break after priesthood at the end of verse 24

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But this the sentence that Forms verse 25.

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I'm asking what's the relationship between the first part and the second part?

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It's pretty straightforward pretty straightforward and My argument is he is able to save to the uttermost

40:58

Because he ever lives to make intercession for them the intercessory work of the high priest and Enables him to save to the uttermost and that means his work as the high priest is in behalf of Who pair hamon those for whom he is interceding?

41:20

You see he Jason's got backwards he says our faith then allows

41:28

Christ to intercede for us The reality is his intercession for father is what saves us

41:35

It's not our fulfilling conditions and that we've fulfilled a condition now

41:40

He can intercede for us. The condition is that we are in him They're the ones we are the only ones who draw near to God through him because we have been united with him

41:50

There really isn't any Concept within provisionism of the reality of our union with Christ in The reality of his death we only become united with Christ when we believe so again, it's always from time

42:08

Trying to extend up to look at what happens in heaven rather than recognizing There is the eternal and there is the temporal we experience in time

42:19

Only that which reflects what has been done in reality in eternity. So I was united with Christ before I existed and If God does not have a divine decree and perfect knowledge of the future that that's a absurd statement

42:33

But scripture plain teaches he does And so the you the elect were united with Christ in his death.

42:40

My name is graven on his hands Don't sing that song if you're a provisionist no provisionist can sing before the throne of God can't do it

42:47

You're lying and you know it can't do it. You don't believe your name was great when I was hands so This verse

42:58

Needs to be understood you need to be able to explain Because I had presented this as Being vital to then transitioning into new covenant new better mediator better promises chapter 8

43:14

Forgiveness of sins right law upon the heart in the chapter 9. He enters into the holy place having obtained eternal redemption

43:22

Chapter 10 once for all no longer have a reminder of sins instead.

43:28

We have a reminder of the sin -bearer We are perfected by the one will rather than the preceding will

43:34

The one sacrifice of Christ. I mean, this is it's the gospel and This is really the longest

43:44

Continuous contiguous Section in all of Scripture that talks about the atoning work of Christ.

43:53

There isn't anything Longer than what you have in the book of Hebrews Which I've argued is why most people don't have a biblical doctrine of atonement.

44:02

They have an emotional doctrine of atonement Because Hebrews is not the favorite book of a whole lot of evangelicals today

44:10

So there you've got the background. There's there you see it Did it did

44:17

II there we go and turn that off There we go, um

44:27

Now you know you got the background right, okay, and I need to Unmaximize that screen so I can get back to the

44:36

Whatever program I was using to play the audio. So I have now Asked him what's the relationship between the first part of the sentence and the last part of the sentence?

44:47

I've said give us your interpretation. Give us your exegesis Because he he had said

44:53

I don't see the connection that you see Well now we all see it. We see it in the grammar.

44:59

We see it in the sentence diagram. We see it in the language Okay. So what are we gonna do with that now?

45:05

Well, let's let's listen to What happened? Well, I don't think

45:16

I would be able to do the proper justice like today to do that But what I'd love to do is to return to that at a later point in time and do a proper exegesis

45:25

I'd be glad to do that So, you know, I don't saying you will not exegete a verse a verse that is specifically on the subject of our debate this evening exegete one single verse is gonna be difficult because you need to properly understand the context and the context truly matters and so I'd rather have more study to do that first and then provide that kind of response.

45:46

I'd hate to do a throwaway statement I'm not trying to win an argument You know, I'm going to submit to whatever the text says, but I Okay.

45:55

Now, let me just stop there for a moment Hebrew 724 is 25 as Appeared in John Owen who he accused of isogesis

46:10

It appears in Calvin It appeared in my own book on this subject and you've not read

46:19

Hebrews well enough to be able to give your own understanding of the relationship between intercession and the high priestly work of Christ You just something you have to do down the road.

46:36

I Was I was at a loss. I was literally sitting there going What's going on here?

46:44

And I said In my closing statement the debate ended there and it did It did to any

46:51

I think to any person who's listening the debate did end there because that was a

46:58

Central aspect of my positive presentation and he won't touch it He spends all of his closing statement and rebuttal time

47:08

Chasing all the David Allen stuff and then all this weird stuff. It's out in in the in the weeds about the

47:17

Jews and Romans 1 through 8 and and stuff like this and if you will not even answer the question of what a single clear verse and Then it was said by latent flowers

47:35

That this is an obscure verse now he tried to back up and and and try to Def not defend but deflect having said that it tells you everything, you know about the traditional nature of Provisionalism that it's leading spokesperson can literally look at a text.

47:59

We just had it on the screen That is so plainly central

48:04

To the topic is it? Okay, there you go, so That was in the positive presentation not touched

48:18

Okay, give us your interpretation. Um, I really can't do that. Maybe sometime in the future

48:28

Okay, well that sometime in the future will be after the debates over so That's that's a bit of a that's a bit of a problem to have it after the debate zone.

48:39

I Don't want to I don't want to do that. I would rather give a proper response and do a proper exegesis

48:46

Just one last thing you Two last things then. All right,

48:51

John chapter 3 verse 7 Okay You maybe you can tell in your voice maybe you can't

49:02

I'm sitting there going I looked back at my notes I still have my notes here.

49:09

I left my Remarkable tablet at home.

49:15

And so I've been using my iPad and the keyboard to take my notes off to the same thing in the last two debates

49:26

And so I'm literally sitting there going Do I just stop

49:32

Do I just stop at this point because honestly

49:40

Anyone who knows and respects debate? Knows that this debate just ended My opponent is not prepared to actually engage with the biblical text and maybe

49:55

Maybe it was decided beforehand That that would be a bad thing to do. Don't try to in cross -examination

50:04

Don't allow white to drag you into What does this mean and and how do you understand that and what about this phrase and don't let him do that Stay as far away from that as you possibly can.

50:17

We've seen what happens when people try to go there and it's ugly and in fact flowers

50:24

Has admitted that for example The cross -examination questions that he asks me were not about my statement.

50:30

They weren't about my opening statement at all They were in essence soteriology 101 tweets And in fact,

50:38

I've thought often since Saturday afternoon, I think Jason Breda was abused

50:45

By Layton flowers and by that side To be their mouthpiece when he doesn't even fully understand what their positions are and hence can't meaningfully enunciate them

50:55

I think that I think there was a that was just abusive On their part and the questions that that were being thrown out again did not reflect

51:05

See the questions are supposed to Draw out further

51:13

Information concerning the presentation was made but that's never been how

51:19

Layton flowers has worked. Look at look at the debate with their Romans 9, you know He had all that stuff already written out what

51:26

I said in my exegesis Romans 9 was irrelevant He was debating a completely different topic. And so he was just gonna follow that and he thinks that's perfectly fine

51:34

Leave it up to him. We'll see how that works March 7th. But anyway

51:43

So all those questions that he was asking Aren't dealing with the positive argumentation

51:54

Regarding the biblical teaching of Particular redemption in Two of the

52:05

Absolutely definitional passages in scripture, I can't think of any that are more definitional than those and Then in the closing there were a couple again more

52:16

David Allen stuff because I did mention at one point I don't I think it may have been in Rebuttal since I didn't have much to rebut

52:24

I could sort of wander around a little bit. I did make reference to Christ dying for the church

52:31

Christ dying for his friends Christ dying for his sheep, but I said and What makes those relevant and hence?

52:41

You can't just simply try to say well, that's uh, that's this kind of logical error that kind of logical error

52:46

Which is what David Allen does When you start with the biblical teaching of what the

52:55

Atonement actually accomplishes That he is able to save the uttermost a particular people those for whom he intercedes

53:05

When you look at and I didn't get into this it would have been really useful to do so if we had more time

53:11

Revelation chapter 5 and What the Lamb has done in purchasing of people?

53:18

To God through his blood When you when you get into some of those other texts

53:24

It's very clear that the Atonement is not a provision It's not like what

53:31

Rome says where where the Atonement? merits grace It's actually a substitutionary it actually accomplishes something and therefore in light of that To say that I die for my sheep and then turn around in the same context that you are not of my sheep becomes significant

53:53

Because of the Overarching biblical meaning of what

53:58

Atonement actually accomplishes so So what happened there at the end of the cross

54:09

X is I'm looking at my notes looking the same notes. I'm looking at right now and And The first thought across my mind is

54:23

Let's just stop. I stopped my rebuttal early Let's just stop. This is there's no reason to Beat the proverbial dead horse, but then

54:32

I glanced at this and I saw the John 3 17th and so That's what you heard me bring it up right there at the end and What this was about Was let me see if I Guess not

54:55

John 3 17 So we know John 3 16.

55:01

Obviously everyone knows that rule. Well And Then John 3 17 says for God did not send the

55:09

Sun into the world to judge the world But the world might be saved through him.

55:19

Oh Look at that. I We're gonna have to fix that well, it might it might fix itself when

55:28

I reload the stuff on it, but anyway, oh well, so Here's the phrase right here or the portion right here but in order that the world might be saved through him and He made the the statement in his

55:50

I think it was the opening statement may have been the rebuttal but before cross -ex He made the statement

55:58

Well, actually, well, I'd have to bring that up and that would mess up the screen I could tell you which one is him, but he made the statement that at the end of verse 17 there is doubt or Hesitancy in the last phrase nor that the world might be saved might be saved through him so the idea is see the the cosmos is

56:23

All these different people. It's not just the elect It's not just those that are going to be saved and they might be saved they might not be saved, but it's just a provisionist type thing and there's doubt involved and I'm sitting here going.

56:37

Okay, I You know, I've tried Number of months ago when we walked through Jason's videos.

56:46

I Tried to explain to him That he doesn't understand the subjunctive You have people they will open up the blue letter

56:55

Bible and they'll click on stuff and there will be basic explanations of Indicative versus subjunctive versus optitive versus imperative these are all things that you have to learn and in first year

57:12

Greek and then problem is in Second year

57:19

Greek see in first year Greek You learn to describe, you know, I learned the 8k system.

57:25

So I learned genitives and ablatives and Then you get into second year and there's a 5k system genitive ablative is actually a subcategory of genitive

57:33

They're the same form so they don't it doesn't really matter how you do it Anyway, you get in a second year

57:39

Greek and you're really proud of yourself. I can recognize a genitive You get in a second year

57:46

Greek and you discover that there are at least like Minimally 12 different syntactical categories of genitives and actually more than that It's very rich, especially if you throw the ablatives in but anyway and The same thing is true looking at indicatives subjunctives especially subjunctives because you have all sorts of Uses of clauses

58:15

So you have Hinnok clauses that can give you purpose or result and That's what you have here and so I asked him here

58:27

I'll Play this for you. Sorry, you know what?

58:38

You don't mind team You made a claim about it

58:44

I hadn't brought it up, but you you made a claim about John 317 in your rebuttal period and You made the assertion that there is something uncertain

58:58

At the at the end of verse 17, do you remember what you said? Yeah, when it says in order that the world might be saved through him

59:06

Do you know what a Hinnok clause is sir? Yeah, what's a Hinnok clause? Okay.

59:12

Well, I'm not gonna give you the good definition That's probably gonna be accurate, but I know of it. So But you don't know what it is.

59:18

I couldn't give you a good proper definition for it, right? last question Sorry about that See I've got to turn the monitor off and turn the microphone on and turn this there and too many things.

01:00:06

Sorry So you heard what he said there at the end. Sorry for the silence there. Thank you for the message

01:00:12

I Asked him what Hinnok clause is and he says I can't tell you except he already had told us or He pretended to tell us

01:00:25

Because if you don't know what Hinnok clause is He has assumed that this verb right here sofe

01:00:32

Because it's in the subjunctive Introduces hesitancy doubt

01:00:39

So on and so forth He doesn't understand what a Hinnok clause is. It's a purpose result clause

01:00:47

The Sun has been sent to the world not to judge the world But the sending of the

01:00:53

Sun is so that the world Might be saved through him. That's the purpose of the sending

01:01:01

It's it has nothing to do with hesitancy has nothing to do with uncertainty It's talking about a

01:01:08

Hinnok clause gives you purpose or result the purpose of the sending was for this Now you're not gonna get that from just reading the blue letter

01:01:18

Bible description of the subjunctive and You're not gonna get that when you get into Until you get into second year

01:01:25

Greek and you start dealing with that kind that the syntactical categories you start reading you know

01:01:32

Wallace's Greek grammar beyond the basics and and see all the different ways the rich beautiful ways

01:01:39

That the Greek language can express these things, but here's the point latent flowers

01:01:45

Said that I I raised irrelevant points about the Greek We'll see how irrelevant it is

01:01:53

Layton. We really will This is not irrelevant It can't be irrelevant when the speaker based upon his

01:02:03

Misunderstanding of the Greek has made an errant assertion because he doesn't read the language

01:02:09

That makes it quite relevant very relevant And that's what

01:02:15

I was asking about. That's what I was asking about. There's a lot more

01:02:21

I could say we've we've the the last part of the the last part of the

01:02:31

Question that I asked was he had made reference To He made reference to Luther's anti -jewish works

01:02:50

And Evidently this is somehow in the context of Maybe this explains why reform people don't see what

01:02:59

I've discovered That the Jews the ones being referred to in the first eight chapters of Romans I I'm you can only guess it really wasn't clearly expressed

01:03:11

And so I asked him I said Do you know who Johan Eck was?

01:03:17

I've heard the name Maybe I'll remember to link to it.

01:03:24

Maybe not But in on Reformation Day in 2017, I was in Washington speaking at a conference there and I I did a presentation on the two

01:03:35

Luthers and it was a discussion of the large difference that exists between the pre 1525

01:03:44

Luther and The post 1525 Luther the impact of the peasants revolt upon Luther and that Luther prior to 1525 is

01:03:55

Very open to the evangelization of the Jews freedom of the Jews things like that His anti -jewish stuff comes later

01:04:05

When he becomes much more of a curmudgeon and His works had next to no meaningful influence upon Reformed churches really didn't and in fact

01:04:18

Luther's book wasn't nearly as bad as Johan X Which is the weird part because equus his mortal enemy was from Really before the

01:04:30

Leipzig disputation through the rest of his life Roman Catholic, of course An X book on the

01:04:38

Jews was horrific Had much wider impact than Luther Oh, yeah,

01:04:47

I know the Nazis picked up on stuff later on but as far as influencing exegesis and reading

01:04:55

If that's what is being thrown out Wow Again you make these kind of comments and you've never read

01:05:06

Luther's materials, you don't know his life. You don't know his history. You don't know what was happening during his life

01:05:12

You don't know what the peasants revolt was or any of these things Just stop it don't make silly statements when you don't know what you're talking about It's just it's yeah, it's it's pretty sad.

01:05:29

So in conclusion

01:05:36

It is truly astonishing that in a debate

01:05:44

Where it is already well known I hid nothing I Didn't come up with anything new.

01:05:51

I had no notes. I Did not even have notes in front of me. All I had was my my

01:05:59

Johnny Cash Bible and I'm like, I've got I think it's 20 minutes Let's split it up between Romans and Hebrews Let's let the courtroom scene.

01:06:11

Let's follow the pronouns. Let's Let the text speak for itself because You know and as I've said,

01:06:20

I I offered It's funny the people that were giving their information to Jason Bretta are primarily dependent on One particular source

01:06:36

Information and I've offered to debate that scholar.

01:06:42

I offered to walk into his classroom We're still teaching Southwestern Baptist Theological. I mean David Allen. I offered to walk into his classroom on Campus of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary with nothing but a

01:06:55

Greek New Testament to debate this issue. He would never take it up and there's a reason for them and so We had we had put everything out there on the table and So I'm simply trying to get the other side to make a case to explain

01:07:17

Why my positions wrong? Not to be going after all this stuff over there and throwing some dirt over that direction and over this direction and doing the

01:07:27

Provisionist let's just focus on what we let's take any topic whether it's Romans 9 whether it's atonement and let's make it all about our questions our stuff and That's that's what the cross -sect.

01:07:40

That's what his questions of me during the cross -sect was we again It was the hijacking of the topic. It was how you lose the debate fundamentally

01:07:50

But I'm trying to get him to define his position take a stand

01:07:59

Tell me what this text says. I say this text teaches What I'm presenting in this debate

01:08:05

I'm not gonna do it it was indefensible in the debate and The attempted defenses afterwards

01:08:18

Only make the whole thing worse. They only make the whole thing worse really they really do

01:08:27

So Layton has said that Brother Bretta's response was humble and Mine was arrogant.

01:08:42

Just keep that in mind. So you need to understand something You can go into a debate You can say the other guy is wrong

01:08:49

You can ignore his presentations and when he goes the Bible verses that he has Explicated from the original languages and ask you to answer it the humble thing to do is to not answer and it's arrogant

01:09:02

To put forward what you have to think about what that would mean Think about what that would mean in the debate that I'm gonna be doing after the debate with Layton With a

01:09:13

Unitarian so when I present Biblical texts that identify when we when we dig in deep to Hebrews chapter 1 where the writer quotes from Psalm 102 25 to 27

01:09:28

Which is uniquely about Yahweh and his immutable Unchangeable nature and applies it to the

01:09:35

Sun and I have to go back to verse 8 and I have to demonstrate Through the use of the introductory statements and the citations that this is actually about the

01:09:42

Sun when I do all that stuff I'm gonna have to do it as an arrogant person and Unitarian, I guess if he goes, oh no will be the humble one

01:09:54

Wow Apply this stuff Outside of the

01:10:01

Calvinism Synergist Provisionist stuff and you'll see it's absurd

01:10:09

It wouldn't allow you to defend the Trinity the deity of Christ the resurrection justification my faith nothing

01:10:16

Couldn't do any of it, but these guys are so focused on this one thing.

01:10:23

They're willing to utterly Decimate how we do apologetics anyplace else how we do hermeneutics interpretation exegesis anyplace else just to be on this one

01:10:38

Wow, I can't do that because I actually do deal with these other Perspectives and if I were to become that imbalanced

01:10:48

Then I'd never be able to respond to all the rest I'd be out out here doing my own thing and Easily refuted by the people that I've become imbalanced this direction.

01:10:58

So they're gonna get me from that direction It's obvious and yet there you go, so sorry about the

01:11:06

Silence there. I'm glad rich was near his phone and was able to Remind me of that too many buttons to push when you're focusing

01:11:19

Man I wonder what I'm gonna get over all this stuff. I don't know. It would be really nice To be over it before the last two debates

01:11:28

But I'm teaching all day Thursday Friday and Saturday. That's not generally how you get over stuff So prayers prayers appreciated

01:11:38

Would be would be really great. Okay. There you go We went for an hour and 15 minutes and I'm really in the middle of nowhere so the the fact that Unless Richard could tell me afterwards we've had a bunch of breaks in the stream the fact the fact that we've seemingly held together is a little bit of testimony as to How at least slowly?

01:12:03

5g and cell coverage and everything else has Been advancing because I'm sort of yes as it's been great

01:12:12

I'm sort of the middle of nowhere right now No major cities nearby at all and yet we've done pretty well, so that's that's a good thing.

01:12:22

That's a good thing so anyways, I Don't know

01:12:29

When we're gonna be able to another program for the simple reason that You know tomorrow's a long day might be able to do something

01:12:41

Wednesday There's already at least one fellow who wants to do a debate review, which we just did on Wednesday night

01:12:51

And I have a chiropractic appointment goodness. I can barely move my head right now On Wednesday to might try to sneak something in there, but I can't see

01:13:01

How Thursday or Friday or Saturday that I can do anything? You're you're just when you're teaching an intensive course in the seminary, and it goes from 8 in the morning like 430 at night

01:13:14

There ain't no room We've done stuff after class sort of Once or twice it's sort of tough to do.

01:13:23

I'm not sure they'd want to try to make that happen But maybe something to come up, and that's what we'll do.

01:13:29

I don't know we'll find out But appreciate your attention appreciate those of you who really want to understand these issues and do not want to be taken in by the emotionalism that Literally leads people to say that it is inappropriate in a debate to ask someone to interpret

01:13:54

Bible I know I don't know played it for you.

01:14:00

It's right there. It's gonna be posted real soon. I've got the transcripts That's that's how it works, so Prayers for continuing travel because I've got a lot of places yet to go and Safety and all the things go along with it.