THE HERE I STAND THEOLOGY PODCAST Interview w/ The Dead Men Walking Podcast

1, 2, 3. All right.

Welcome to the Here I Stand Theology Podcast, where we are a podcast dedicated to appointed and spirited debate, biblical doctrine, amongst other stuff.

And so tonight we are going to be talking probably a little bit of everything with the guys you may be asking, or if you're one of our few subscribers and followers, you may know who we've got on the podcast tonight.

We have the actual dead men walking of the

Dead Men Walking Podcast. We are super excited about these guys being with us tonight.

So without any further ado, let's bring these guys in.

Hello guys. How's it going, Claude? I like that. Going good. By the way, we have a studio audience.

They are just a little bit delayed. So these are the guys from Dead Men Walking. I think

I just got a little scared. Was that from the Tennessee Republican Party Convention?

What was that? I'm not sure. I think that might've been Oprah Winfrey in the front row, clapping for y 'all.

Wow. With me? I know. I almost fell backwards in my chair right there.

Did I have the sound a little loud or was that okay? I think it sounds good. No, it's great. Yeah. All right.

I'm trying to juggle here tonight. So guys, we want to thank you for being with us again.

As I mentioned, we are super excited to have you here. We've got quite a bit we'll talk about tonight, quite a bit we'll go through.

But before we go any further, let me make an apology. I apologize for the

Chris Huffman positive review debacle. I know it wasn't

Chris Huffman. It was Chris Huff. Yeah. We're supposed to do this podcast. I'll be honest with y 'all.

I think I was about half asleep when I was watching that, but I did love it.

I didn't want to forget it in the morning to make a positive review. So I want to say something good to y 'all about that.

Chris loved it. That was awesome. All right.

So let's - I just realized something really quick too. Hold on. Hold on. I got to turn this around. Oh, go ahead. Oh, yes.

Got the hats on. You like these hats? Yeah. Those are super nice hats. Hold on. Let me bring y 'all full screen here.

All right. Now, Claude, I do need to tell you something. When did you... You created your podcast, you said, in this year,

January of this year? Yes, sir. So if anyone listens to our podcast, they know that I'm a county commissioner.

I want to show you what my logo is when I ran in 2016, okay? All right. Don't you see this now?

Now, this was 2016. Holy cow. We're close there. Look more. I was first, all right?

You were first. Then I ripped off Here I Stand Theology podcast for my campaign.

Well, it's I should... That should be bowing to you on that. Hopefully, there was no copyright infringement there.

Oh, no, not at all. You go get your free images and you use them. I know. Right. Oh, man.

Oh, guys. Love the hats. Cool stuff, man. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you much.

All right. So let's start with just a couple of fun questions here. So first question to all of our male viewers that may or may not be watching tonight or tomorrow when the episode premieres, the first question is very important and it's this.

Why would a man shave his face down to the skin? You know what's really funny about that question?

The other day, I almost just shaved it to a mustache. Oh, my.

I know. I was thinking about it because it's been so hot and like,

I mean, you know, usually the beard's fine. I mean, I don't really worry about it too much. But yeah,

I mean, the other day, my the air conditioning went out in the house and, you know, I didn't didn't have all of my necessities and I was like, what am

I just out of mustache? But yeah, no, that would be horrible. I would have I would have allowed you guys to go ahead and make fun of me.

I would deserve. I usually find the guys that do that are usually liberal progressives and they're in the middle of transitioning.

I will be I will be honest with you, it's that's probably what appeared the last time that I shaved.

I appeared to be a liberal transgressing or a liberal progressive transitioning because I literally

I think I literally cried the last time I shaved my beard. Yeah, man. Oh, yes.

We love your listeners that don't have beards. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. As we say in Tennessee, bless their hearts.

The women that don't have beards, our sisters, our sisters. All right.

So the next question, hard hitting, pressing. Yeah. We ask this any time we have a guest on the podcast.

So the question is this, guys, if you all had to arm wrestle, who would win? Oh, oh,

I think I'm going to give that to Jason. I don't know, man. I have I'll be honest,

I was working at Ford Motor Company before about eight months ago. I started trading stocks full time.

And since then, I am not usually doing as much manual labor. You should see

Greg's yard out here, man. He cuts his grass. He digs holes. He's like got all this different landscape going on.

I mean, he's always out in the yard. So you know what? I'll give it to Greg. No, no. But when

I was at Ford, I was pretty tough. Yeah. I think you still have some of that Ford toughness.

All my all my powers in my lips, you know, not a lot of buy and try and let's go on.

Well, if it wasn't for the antlers, you all could you all could just arm wrestle there. You'd be the first group to ever officially live arm wrestle on the

Here I Stand Theology podcast. Right. Right. Right. Right. That's it.

That could be an episode. It would get us down to a fight, laugh, feast to, you know, the guys that free the states.

They actually said after the podcast that they I think they arm wrestle James Silberman and Sam.

Oh, man. Wow. Yeah, that would have been worth watching.

To keep peace among brothers, as we should biblically, we'll say it's going to be a draw. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. There we go. That's not manly. That's not manly. Somebody's got to win. There's winners and losers.

Yay. Right, right, right. No participation trophies. I love this podcast.

This is awesome. I love it. All right, guys, so for real, if y 'all would, tell us,

Jason, we'll start with you. just a little bit about yourself, your hobbies, what you enjoy about y 'all getting started on the podcast.

Yeah, yeah. So Jason Hamlin from the southeastern side of Michigan.

Yeah, I was in a band before I had come on this podcast, before I started working at Ford.

I mean, I had traveled the entire world. I was in Europe a couple of times, in Japan, all over the

States. I mean, I was living in a van down by the river sometimes, but yeah,

I mean, things I like to do, I guess, looking at stocks for me, my job, it's like,

I never knew how much I loved math, but I love math. But yeah,

I mean, but on a serious note, I absolutely love theology and I mean, studying scripture.

I know, right? Wait a second. I just said it like theology. He's making the laugh noises on you.

Right, right, right. So, yeah. So, I mean, I love theology. I love talking theology. I love trying to figure out

God's word and what biblically, what it actually says, because I did dive into the

NAR. I was regenerated probably three and a half, four years ago. Praise the

Lord. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'd went to church my whole life. Same story as most, heard every sermon and ran away.

Like I said, got in a band, toured. And yeah, I ended up finding

Apologia Studios was the first Reformed teaching that I had really dove into and it was between Durbin and then he started having guests on,

I mean, from Gary DeMar to Andrew Sandlin.

And then I started hearing about Douglas Wilson and Toby Sumter and it just went on and on.

And then Greg was like, you should, you should come down. I'm going to have a podcast. I was like, I don't know, man.

I'm not really good on the microphone. I can't stand talking whatsoever. I get really nervous. And I still go through that.

I mean, we've done a year and a half and I'm still like, oh, oh, oh, you know? And yeah.

But anyway, I came down, had a seven or eight hour conversation with Greg about theology and it was just like, what is going on right now?

You know, that's like the most awesome thing that could ever happen. And you know, within the next week or two, he was like, what do you think about jumping on and being co -host?

I was like, I don't want to do it whatsoever, but yeah, sure, let's do it. And from there, yeah.

I mean, we just started talking to as many different theologians, scholars, people that are way smarter than myself.

I know that. Yeah, man, sometimes some of those conversations, you're just like, oh man,

I'm not even supposed to be in the same room. Like it gets really nerve wracking and scary, you know, to be talking to certain brothers, you know, but what we stand on the shoulders of giants, man, and I was thankful for these men of God that have just, you know, learned as much as they could and just to be teaching us even when we are interviewing them and being so humble about it.

And it's just awesome. So, but anyway, sorry, I kind of went on a little bit there, but yeah, that's kind of, that's kind of me.

That's what we're wanting. That's what we're wanting. Appreciate it. Go Greg. How about you? Oh, thanks,

Claude. Yeah. So let's see, married 16 years this November to my beautiful wife,

Samantha. We have three children, Penelope, Coralie, and Oliver. They are 11, nine and seven.

Yeah. Grew up in a kind of a little bit more legalistic Bill Gothard type church.

When I was younger than we transferred to a church that was kind of on the other side of the pendulum, which was a little more kind of gnar, like you were saying,

Jason, centric, very gifts and healing and prophecy with a capital

P and all that. And then when I was like 17 graduated, I was homeschooled up until 10th grade.

So my last two years went to public school, couldn't believe how people treated their teachers and the disrespect and all that stuff that went on in public school.

And I just kind of went wild. I was just like, I want to do my own thing. I was in a band for a little bit for a couple of years.

We toured regionally and really look back on that period of my life to where, you know,

I was in, I didn't care if I died or lived, I was running from God. I knew I shouldn't be doing what

I'm doing because I still had the conviction of the moral code that God sears into our conscious, even though I didn't profess him.

And in one instant, in 2004, the Lord took everything from me.

He took my band, my house, my car, my license, my job, my girlfriend at the time, which is now my wife, and pretty much put me in a place to where all

I could do is say, well, I think at least I still have Jesus. And I tell people and I've said it many times on the podcast,

I said the sinner's prayer at seven and I got saved at 24 because it was it was at that moment that I understood who

I was in relationship to who God was. So got back into the word, just had this two year period of just purification of just study and, you know, kind of picked up where I left off with kind of the charismatic movement.

I started really reading the Bible, reflecting on questions that I'd always asked growing up that I'd never gotten good answers to, you know, that are now memes on the

Internet. You know, I remember asking, I remember asking my my youth pastor once when

I was 13, I said, why do people go to hell? And he said, they don't believe in Jesus. And I said, well, doesn't the

Bible say belief is a sin? And he said, yeah. And I said, well, didn't Jesus die for all sins? And he said, yeah. And I said, well, then why isn't everyone in heaven?

And he just looked at me and he went, oh, that's a good one and turned around and walked away. And I didn't know that I was wrestling with that 13 years old.

You know, I didn't know there was a theological name for that. We're talking about atonement and what Christ actually did and limited or unlimited atonement, all those things.

So I started reading the reading the Bible and then got a hold of a Dave Hunt newsletter. It was called

Berean Call back in the day. And he was not reformed, but he would and I really liked how he kind of pieced apart the

Bible. But even with that, I found some issues and I go, well, he kind of contradicting himself here about six months in.

He says, hey, go get this book that I wrote with this guy named James White. It's called Debating Calvinism. And so I buy it and I'm like, oh,

Dave Hunt is going to wipe the floor with this James White guy, whoever this dude is, you know, bump bump bump halfway through the book.

I'm like, Dave, you're getting killed here. Who's this guy? And then I started to realize all these fathers of the faith that I grew up with in church that they would mention to me, the

Jonathan Edwards, the John Bunyan, the study guide and the concordance that I was reading,

Matthew Henry, the Charles Spurgeon, all these guys were reformed. And I'm like, wait a minute, why didn't anyone ever tell me this?

I just heard Calvinists were these like weirdos that really kind of didn't believe anything and I should stay away from them.

I mean, that was kind of what was told to me. So I go from the Bible to R .C. Sproul, from the Bible to James White, from the

Bible to Apologia, from the Bible to John Knox, from the Bible to Spurgeon, from the Bible to Jonathan Edwards, from the

Bible to John Newton and Amazing Grace and his autobiography and how he became reformed and back and forth.

And then I realized, oh, my gosh, reformed theology is just believing what the Bible says and letting the text stand on its own and not putting a tradition or a doctrine over what the

Bible says. So about two years into that coming to the Lord, I realized, oh, my gosh, I think

I'm reformed. But I had been so ingrained with people telling me, oh, Calvinists just believe you're all robots.

And, you know, that whole argument, it took me a good six or seven years to wrestle with it and come out of the proverbial

Calvinist closet like I didn't even come out and tell people like, you know, this is what I believe.

I'd go, no, I believe in the sovereignty of God and I'm wrestling with these things. And probably when I was 30, so a good six years and I'm and I just turned 40 this year.

That's what I was like. Nope, this this is what it is. And I and I hit my cage stage running. And boy, I had and then everyone needed to know about, you know, and Jonathan Edwards said, don't make me let you listen to the hand of an angry guy.

You know what I mean? Like, that's it. And then I believe it or not, which he's straight up far from when

I first started listening to him, Matt Chandler said something in a sermon, geez, 10 years ago. And he just said, you know, if you use theology like a hammer and not a scalpel, you don't understand theology or God at all.

And it just really hit me and it went, OK, it's not about winning a debate or winning an argument. It's about knowing

God. That's what theology means. Right. And that's why Jay and I love doing this podcast. And I would assume this is why you love doing this podcast is trying to outsmart anyone or win a debate or say you're wrong and I'm right.

Maybe in some things we are. But for me anyway, I can only speak to myself. I just want to know God more. I want to know him more closely.

I want to read his word. I want to understand who he is. And that's what it's the study of. So during Covid in 2020, they shut me down for a few weeks up here in Michigan.

We started a podcast. Jay came on second episode. Yeah. And we've been going strong ever since. Once a week we have shorts on Saturdays.

We're a little five minute explanations on some things. We've tried Clubhouse where people jump on live.

I know we got some new segments coming out with book reviews. We're just chugging along, man, and having a good time. Yeah. Amen. Yeah, exactly.

That's awesome. So so in your early episodes, I noticed you were like on the couch, on the couch and in a chair.

Was that there in the same room? It is. It is. And we realized as soon as we got three guys in here, two of them had to sit on a loveseat.

And it was a good vibe. Yeah, right. Yeah. And it was very I mean, like we were trying different angles.

We added another chair like like I had a friend that brought a chair over and, you know,

I was sitting in that and then you only see my side profile. I was like, man, my left side looks a lot better than my right side.

And it's like, oh, man, what's going on, man? And then then

Greg found this table and painted it up and added the sweet horns. And, you know, sorry.

Sorry. I'm not a hunter. You know, I live in Michigan, but I don't.

And I property, I hunt for I hunt for verses in the Bible, boys.

Right. That's right. I hunt for sinners. Yeah. Yeah. I hope for Arminian or good lord.

Sorry. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So get him, get him, get him to say, man, you ought to say out

I say I hunt for heresy. I think I've been called that over the years and I'll talk to that a little bit when we get later on in our questions.

But but so that is I mean, that is awesome. I mean, it's it's it's such a blessing in really, truly.

It's refreshing to to sit here and to be laughing with reform folk.

Right. Right. Because it seemed like most reformed folks think you got to you know, you got to be stiff, you got to be rigid.

You can't enjoy life. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I mean. Are part of our show that we've noticed that people like the most is whenever we do cut up, laugh.

And then even the newsy news section, we have a section where we where we talk about current events or something that's happened in the world.

And there's a funny newsy news song. Now we have a new song for a book review, which is book suggestions.

And I mean, it's we try to have a good time, but also be as serious as possible when we are handling the word of God.

But yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying, though. I mean, every every podcast that I kind of go through, it seems like one in 10 will like say a little joke.

And you're just like, what? What? What? Because like right when they start the show, it's like, all right, we're getting into first John today.

And we're you know, it's like, OK, that's good. I'm fine with it. But, you know. Yeah. But anyway, which

I have found reformed guys to be some of the having some of the best senses of humor. Yeah. Yeah. Very.

I mean, you look at the dry stuff is really funny moments by which we're going to have in a couple of weeks.

Which we're just on. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you're familiar with him, but I mean, he just clips together all of the jokes and kind of the inside stuff from the reformed guys.

And I go, I would watch this as a stand up set. These are great. They are hilarious. I love the last one.

You get number 17. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Dr. White thug life's are really.

OK, so guys of of of all the y 'all, I've had some big time guests on your show.

So in your opinion, who are the top three? I knew you were going to ask.

Let me let me frame that and say this first. I can't be first. Don't don't worry about the big time guests, because they're probably not watching this show anyway.

So you're not going to hurt their feelings. Yeah, I'm going to make them. Yeah, yeah.

Right, right. We could go one for one. Well, what if I said one, you said one? OK, can they be the same or.

Yeah, yeah, they can be the same because there's there's a couple that we just kind of have to remember, agree on.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, I'll just be completely honest. Doug Wilson, I mean, is just like blessed in my family's life.

I mean, my life. I mean, so many lives. But but may I tell you what, to to have a conversation with him was was a lot of fun and really, really cool to have

Doug Wilson. So I go with him. So I'm going to say one that might be a little controversial right now, because he has been in the news recently and some of the reform guys have soured on him because of like Bethel worship and stuff like that.

But I liked not necessarily my favorite, but definitely in the top three was Dr. Sam Storms, because I thought he did such a just a passionate defense of amillennialism.

Yeah. To where he was. He was just so passionate about it. You go, yeah, this guy isn't coming off this.

We can't flip him to premill. He's definitely, you know, you know, yeah, we'll never flip him to premill. And it was just it was explained in a in a nice way.

And go back and listen to that. So that was over a year ago. But it was only a little 30 minute interview. But yeah, he packed so much into that just to talk about straight theology, define terms, why he believes where he finds it.

I just from that aspect, I thought it was a good episode. Yeah, yeah. Have you all seen the an evening of eschatology?

Yeah. They're at the round table. Two and a half hours. Yeah. It's awesome.

It's awesome. We just need to complete that. Get Piper on. And then that premill guy was who cares about him?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jeremy, I can't remember. Yeah, I can't. We're joking. We love you,

Jeremy. Whatever you want. Whatever. Oh, yeah. So I guess on a you mentioned the two and a half hour or two and a half hour video.

I love that stuff. So you're all you're all wives and family. Do they like say, would you please turn that off?

Because my wife does. I mean, she's a preacher's wife, but she's still she can't handle. Oh, yeah.

My wife will be like, yeah, you're watching another debate. The same thing.

Yeah. Over and over. Yeah. I'm just like, I'll just put the headphones in, baby. Don't worry about it. Daddy's got to watch some apology.

Exactly. Yeah, man. Oh, my. So who's your number two? Yeah, number two. Number two. I'll go with.

I love, love Glenn Sunshine. I mean, that guy. Yeah, man.

History scholar. I mean, the guy I love talking to him.

And yeah, just extremely smart. One of those guys that you're just like, just just talk.

Just talk. And I'll just listen. You know, it's like I don't I can't ask you a question.

Oh, but yeah. But anyway, yeah. Glenn Sunshine and his his podcast. Oh, man. So I guess he just gets three other like doctors and really smart dudes together, and they just talk about the craziest stuff.

Sometimes they like link it up to like Lord of the Rings. And you're like, how is he relating limited atonement to Lord?

I know. C .R. Wiley. Mark Price is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'd love to have them on. We need we need to figure that out. Yeah, yeah. So, Greg, you're number two.

Yeah, yeah. Let's see. Oh, gosh. I mean, I'm a big fan of Tom Askew, so I loved when

Tom Askew came out a few months ago and we threw down the gauntlet and said, why don't you talk about, you know, female pastors and what the biblical ramifications are of that?

And he's like, yeah, I don't know you guys, but I'll come on there. Talk about it. I was like, love it. I love it when guys don't shy away from those hard subjects.

You know, yeah. Just came on and gave us time and, you know, we got a couple of laughs out of him, which was good.

I like, yeah, taking someone like Tom, who's so stoic and then getting him to chuckle at our stupidness. So that was a good one,

I thought. There was something in the newsy news that he didn't. Did he respond to it or what was it he did during the newsy news?

Yeah, we said, you can comment if you want. He said, can I comment on that song? There was a lot of fun.

All right, Jason, number three. I know I know my three, but I think you're going to say it. Oh, no, I mean,

I'm having a really rough time. If you already have yours, go ahead. Can I go ahead? Yes, because this is a weird one. This is something that you got on that I didn't even know existed.

OK, and it was one of my favorite. You're going to say no, you know, because Jason goes, I got this guy.

You're going to love him. I've seen him on YouTube. Yeah, he's a Christian. Now he's not reformed. OK, but would you?

We made a little joke about that. He was a great guest. Yeah, he was like making 50 grand a month as a new age.

Dude had number one website, got radically saved by Christ. Now he preaches against, you know, the one

Christ consciousness and all this stuff. And we got like UFOs and like government, you know, shadow governments and like reform stuff and all kinds of cool stuff.

I mean, it was like a two hour episode and he was so gracious. Yeah, we could have kept going with. I mean, like it was so awesome.

But yeah, yeah, I know he is. He is super intellectual. Yeah, extremely.

Man, he's so smart, but he explains it so well. You know, even a dumb guy like me is like, oh, I can understand.

Yeah, yeah. My my third, I would would piggyback off of the new age topic.

Yeah. Doreen Virtue was a lot of fun to have on because she was living in that as well for years and years and years.

And her testimony is just amazing. I mean, you know, from her, you know, going to church and pretty much saying that that she was a

Christian, but then also going to all these new age conferences, saying that she was channeling angels to write books and bestselling books.

Yeah, best. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, her story and we got into yoga. We got into, you know, a bunch of different topics, which which that's the thing that I really love about the people that we have had on these conversations.

We try to pull in things that the church might be doing in some instances where, you know, they might think it's innocent.

They might think, oh, yeah, well, you know, I'm hearing from an angel or I'm seeing an angel or I'm doing this,

I'm doing that. I'm praying to an angel. It's like, well, wait a second. Yeah, don't don't don't do any of that. You know, and here's a person that actually like went through a lot of these things and she's, you know, teaching against it.

Like, like really, you know, but but yeah, I loved having Doreen Virtue on. She just got her

Master's of Divinity. Was it? Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, praise God for for her and her testimony.

Who was the guy that she listened to on the radio that she said? Was it Steve Lawson or was it Craig Ferguson? They're not

Craig Ferguson. I can't say Claire Ferguson. Claire. Yeah, yeah. It was one of those guys. It was a reformed guy. And she said, yeah,

I was listening to the radio. He's just preaching Christ crucified and the sovereignty of God. And I was like, wow, I'm wrong. Right.

Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. Love reform. Good question.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, thank you all for answering that. I, I was I was kind of thinking not to ask it because it might be putting folks on the spot, but still yet.

That's what we're here for. We're here just to have a good conversation, right? That's right, that's right. Well, that's that's part of it.

Female pastors, not. So you mentioned the pre -meal pastors conference.

Did one of you come out of an IFB church at some point? Did I read that on the side or was that somebody else?

I was very growing up. I was in a legalistic fundamental

Baptist. Yeah, I mean, you know, this it was my family on the

Hamlin side. We we came up from the holler of Harlan, Kentucky. And yeah, man, we were in the middle of Appalachia, middle of nowhere.

And yeah, I mean, it was it. It was just folks, folks from the country that that's how they were raised.

That's how they were taught, you know. And I do believe that grandma and grandpa thought they were doing the right thing, you know, teaching the right thing and teaching us scripture.

And, you know, obviously now I know the error of some of those some of those the context of some of those verses and whatnot.

But you know what? I tell you what, like, I know I'm going to see him when I get to heaven, you know, but but yeah, yeah, it was me, though.

It was me. I was, yeah, raising that legalistic. Yeah. Fire and brimstone, which

I don't mind. Fire and brimstone. Go ahead and yell at me. Tell me I'm doing wrong. You know, in the right context, though, keep it biblical.

Right. Amen. So all the fire and brimstone you want is as long as it's it's you're teaching contextually from this text itself.

Amen. Amen. All right. So let's switch gears here. We'll go to theology.

We are at 32 minutes, guys. I'll try not to keep you all too much longer, but I mean, thoroughly enjoying this.

Yeah. So y 'all have probably read this and just kind of want to we'll do a little a little segment here real quick where actually before we do the segment, let's take a break.

Let me run the righteous rich promo real quick. It'll take about 45 seconds and then we'll be right back.

OK. Love those guys. Let's do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. All right.

If you haven't been over to righteous rich dot com, we want to point you that way. Marcus and the guys over there are awesome, just as the reformed sage has wonderful reformed gear.

Righteous rich has some good gear. They're always coming out with something new as well. So go to righteous rich dot com.

Use promo code H .I .S. 21 when you check out. It'll help them. It'll help us a little bit.

You'll get a 10 percent discount. All right, guys. So let's talk a little go a little bit more about theology right here.

You all probably know who J .C. Riley is. I'd say he's probably one of my favorite theologians.

So articulate, so clear, so plain, so down to earth because that's what

I am. I'm basically retarded. How's that for politically correct?

If April, if my wife was in here, I think I may have heard her upstairs holler, Amen, right there. But but J .C.

Ryle wrote basically about the spineless jellyfish.

And I want to read a little bit of that and get your all's take on it. Then we'll talk a little bit more about how a reformed theologist changed your all's life, too.

But J .C. Ryle said this. He said the consequences of this widespread dislike to distinct biblical doctrine are very serious.

Whether we like it or not, it's an epidemic which is doing great harm. And especially among young people, it creates fosters and keeps it keeps up an immense amount of instability in religion.

It produces what I must venture to call, if I may coin the phrase, a jellyfish

Christianity in the land. That is a Christianity without bone or muscle or power.

Jellyfish, as everyone knows, who has been much by the seaside is pretty and a graceful object when it floats in the sea, contracting and expanding like a little delicate, transparent umbrella.

Yet the same jellyfish when cast on the shore is a mere helpless lump without capacity for movement, self -defense or self -preservation.

Alas, it is a vivid type of much of the religion of this day, of which the leading principle is no dogma, no distinct beliefs, no doctrine.

We have hundreds of ministers who seem not to have a single bone in their body of divinity. That's a quotable statement right there.

They have no definite opinions. They are so afraid of extreme views that they have no views at all.

We have thousands of sermons preached every year, which are without an edge, without a point or without a corner.

They are as smooth as marble balls, awakening no sinner and edifying no saint.

We have legions of young men annually turned out from our universities armed with a few scraps of secondhand philosophy who think it's a mark of cleverness and intellect to have no decided opinions about anything in religion and to be utterly unable to make up their minds as to what

Christian truth is. Their only creed is a kind of nothing ism.

They are sure and positive about nothing. And at last, worst of all, we have myriads of respectable church going people who have no distinct and definitive value.

Our views are no distinct and definite views about any point in theology. They cannot discern things that differ any more than colorblind people can distinguish colors.

They think everybody is right and nobody is wrong. Everything is true and nothing is false.

All sermons are good and none are bad. Every clergyman is sound is what they think.

And no clergyman unsound. That's a pretty. Have you all read that before? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a pretty strong statement. So good. Yeah. What is that actually from?

Is that from that? Yeah. Jellyfish Christianity. OK. Sorry, I just hit the button.

Actually, it's from a Puritan's mind. OK. OK. You can go to a Puritan's mind dot com.

Pastor study jellyfish Christianity. But I love so true and so much in the day and the time in which we live.

That's what well, you all talked about the NAR, you know, Pentecostalism, the charismatic movement that I mean, they want.

They want everything but theology. It seems as though that's the case.

Is that what you all have found? What do you think? I just threw some notes down here as I was listening to that.

I mean, when we talk about the American gospel, I mean, we're talking about the health, wealth, prosperity. We talk about this stuff all the time on here with a lot of different guests.

I mean, you know, when it comes to grace, I mean. You know, it's like we talk about grace, like it's this hyper grace, you know,

I mean, I mean, even even like Joseph Prince, that's what he teaches, hyper grace.

Well, you know, our I shouldn't say this on this, but I don't think our pastor is going to listen.

But, you know, sometimes from the pulpit, you hear you hear a pastor say something and, you know, you disagree and maybe they just didn't get into it enough.

And maybe that's where it kind of like hits you a little bit. And and he might have just not went into it because it just might have not been the day for it.

But whenever you talk about grace and mercy, like, OK, just go ahead on, go ahead on and sin.

You know, you stamped your ticket. You're headed to heaven. And like, yeah, yeah.

And it's like, man, there is just such an opportunity right now to really preach God's truth.

I mean, this is not a TED talk. Like, don't worry. I mean, you know, like let's let's let's actually speak truth and for people to actually know the

Bible. And I mean, it's you know, if it turns people away or if it cuts them and and they get offended,

I mean, good. OK, you know, I mean, that's OK. You know, like I mean,

I'm not saying we need to just, you know, get thrown down in the dirt all the time.

And, you know, our face is rubbed in poop. But, you know, I mean, it's like it's like, man, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's like it's like, man, there is a time where it's just like, you know what? Like, I don't know, maybe

I'm not seeing something in my life. And and all of a sudden the Holy Spirit is, you know, it's just like you're here.

What did you say earlier that Matt Chandler said using a scalpel, not a hammer? Don't use theology like a scalpel.

Yeah, but but yeah, that if we went into all that stuff, it would be hours and hours.

But sorry. That's what it makes me think about. Oh, no, I think I love that quote.

And I think you're totally right, Claude, when you say, well, I would phrase it a different way. You say they're not interested in theology, but I believe that most so -called quote unquote

Christians in today's church, they're interested in theology, but it's their own theology. And it's not a biblical theology.

That's a good point. They want to make a God in their own image. And that's idolatry and pride. That's that's what it really boils down to.

Secondly, in the Western Christian church, you have to realize that we have it so good for so long.

Not only do we create our own problems, but we've created our own God, too. We no longer rely on him.

We don't need him for food. We don't need him for shelter. We don't need him for free time. We don't need him for freedom.

We don't need him for all these things. And we just go, oh, yeah, we're blessed. And we give him lip service. Right. Presidents say, God bless this country as lip service.

And it's it's it's really scary because God will not be mocked, first of all. Yes, he's loving.

Yes, he's righteous. Yes, he's holy. But because he's holy, he's also just and he's also wrathful.

And up there and and blaspheme his name, whether an elected official pastor or church congregant.

Right. And then go out Monday through Saturday and live how you want and create this image of who you think

God is. And that's what we're doing. Like you said, Jason, through prosperity, gospel, through hypergrace, through not talking about sin and not talking about sin.

One is Pentecostalism, all these things that create a non -biblical God and then go, well, that's who we want to serve.

Yeah, the the quotes escaping me right now. But I think it was Martin Luther. And it's one of my favorite.

And he basically said, you know, the thing that your heart clings to in times of trouble, that is your true

God. OK, and we saw this during covid, didn't we, Claude? I mean, we saw what

Christians cling to in times of trouble. They they cling to the news. They cling to their family.

They they went to medicine. They went to the doctors. They went to scientists. They did not cling to God. So who is your true

God in times of trouble? You know, when Tom Askew was on, he even said that he goes, look at if nothing else, covid has been a great separate thing.

Yeah, you know, in the church and, you know, in the church and even out in the world of who is truly trusting

God and man, it's just tough because when you actually go in, I'm sure you get this,

Claude, when you try to talk theology to a brother or sister, I've met guys 20, 30, 40 years in the church, and I'm no scholar.

OK, I'm just a guy that loves God and is curious. I like to read. I like to talk. I like to debate. And they will just look at you blankly if you ask them something that's outside of their three or four talking points of their denomination.

Yeah. Yes, sir. And it's so disheartening because we just had this discussion with Provoke podcast.

You need to know stuff not only in your in your own belief system, but you need to know about atheists and you need to be talking about moralists and you need to know about, you know,

Mormonism, Mormonism or whatever. Seventh Day Advent, Jehovah's Witness.

And you need to know those things and you don't have to be a scholar. Right. Yeah. We should know about those things and we should understand them and we should have, you know, like the

Bible says, we should be able to refute those with truth and with the gospel. And unfortunately,

I don't think, man, I would say the majority if we're saying 51 percent is the majority. Well, I know it's the majority.

Ligonier just did a national study, 50 ,000 Christians out of those that called themselves

Christians. Sixty two percent didn't believe in the Trinity. Yeah. Yes. Four percent of those said

Christ was not a deity. That's what we're talking about when we say the word Christian now. That's why we have to say stuff like reform to biblical worldview.

Like I have to get that in there because I have to define terms. Yeah. I call myself a Christian. I can be a new age

Christ consciousness, universal, universal. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's that's all the truth. Yeah, for sure.

It's just tough because we do want to know God. And I think that's what every one of us here, all three of us are trying to do.

Yeah. Yeah. And really, truly, it boils down. Accountability really boils down to two pastors.

As a pastor, I'm not ashamed to say that it boils down to pastors not willing to put in the time and the effort to study the scriptures and to teach these things to their people.

I think it may be for some pastors, particularly young pastors.

It may be a bit of an intimidation factor because they think, you know, they've grown up here and these old men preach.

And it seems like these old men know everything. But if they just take a little bit at a time and we help our congregants as pastors, we help our congregants connect the dots.

We don't we don't have to. We don't have to draw out all the dots at once. But we do need to, you know, have one dot after another.

We need to have at least the next dot in line so that we can give our people a place to go so that they can take that little by little and communicate it to others.

Because if you can't reckon that you said it, Greg, they need to be able to recognize what it is about Jehovah's Witnesses, about Mormonism, about seven day

Adventist, what it is about that. That's unbiblical. Right. We can forget everything. We can forget everything else.

Focus on what's biblical. And that'll give us plenty more than we can focus on in a lifetime.

Yeah. Amen. Well, you know, and I'll piggyback off of what you said, Claude, too, really quick. I mean, it is there. We did an episode on Ezekiel 34 and what it is to be a shepherd.

I had it up. Oh, you had it up. Look at that. Do it. Hey, once a week for a year and a half. We are finally thinking on the same page.

And you can quote whatever you want there. No, I was. Yeah, I was going to go into that. It's about it's about shepherding.

Like we have had pastors because first of all, we treat churches like a business. We treat pastors like a celebrity.

We look at what can I say to get more people? Because we look at numbers as if that's success. Right. It's like pragmatism.

Give me 30 Bible believing Christians. I'll go up against 10 ,000 mega church members that don't know

Genesis from Revelation. I agree.

Amen. But yeah, we're going to say, no, yeah, that I mean, I was going to go into the shepherding the flock.

I mean, that's exactly what you guys just touched on. I mean, that's exactly the way we need to be thinking. I mean, it's it comes down to the pastor, you know, going into difficult subjects, you know, rather than this piffy gospel that, you know, and maybe

I shouldn't say it that way because you can say it that way. The TED talk, you know, like the oh, here we go.

We got to drop for, you know, every, you know, it's like your breakthroughs come and, you know, get get into the holes and everything else.

I mean, you know what, man? Like like let's let's get down to like how we're going to make it through this life with, you know,

I mean, an understanding that suffering is OK. I do. And I just I'm very careful about saying who wouldn't wouldn't go to heaven.

I just think that only God can judge a person's heart. That's right. That was smiling, Joe, wasn't it?

But yeah, no, no, that's that's good stuff. I love it. I love it. All right, guys, let's let's just wrap up just a couple of quick questions here.

So what theologians you may have glanced over this earlier, but what theologians, what preachers and teachers have been instrumental in your growth in the faith?

Greg, let's start with you. Oh, that's good. Yeah, that is so good. Uh, well, first and foremost, the professor of theology,

R .C. Sproul. I mean, Ligonier marked me, man, like when I discovered them and I only discovered him recently, you know, 15 years ago or whatever it was in my mid 20s, it was like, who is this guy that's been talking since the 70s with a fro and a red and just breaking it down old school style and just making me weep?

Yeah, because he's just giving me truth. Right. James White, of course, Dr. James White.

I love his debates. I love how articulate he is, how specific to detail he is. He defines terms.

He's just I mean, he's that bulldog that when he gets a hold of something, he just doesn't let it go. Yeah, probably historically.

I love reading through listening to the prince of preachers, Charles Spurgeon John Newton, actually, who wrote

Amazing Grace. Not a lot of people, they don't consider him a theologian. First half of his life, he was a slave trading ship captain and then got radically saved and and, you know, wrote

Amazing Grace and became reformed and even reading through some of his letters. That's what

I was going to mention right there. Oh, my gosh. His letters. Those those marked me. You know, I went through a phase two where I was listening to guys like like the

Matt Chandler from 15, 20 or 18 years ago. He had some really good stuff where I would just chew on that and go.

And this was all when I was new to even that theology and going, wait, what is this? What? There's a there's a guy out there that can that says,

I'm not David. I'm I'm David. Yeah, I'm like Goliath. And he's like, you're not David, right?

But he's voting recently. Yeah. Well, I mean, recently with his CRT stuff. But geez, we've been listening to Vodi for years and years and years.

Love. He was one of them. That's a little more, you know, modern one. Yeah. I mean, if you go back in time, I even read through.

I have a book of the early church. Right. And it's the first 200 years. I mean, Augustine. So I have a beard oil that I sell, and it's

Augustine's pristine and Spurgeon's virgin, right? And good stuff, by the way.

And it has and it basically has two quotes from each of them about beards. You know what I mean? The manly beard is good and spiritual, whatever.

And that actually doing that little project got me into Augustine just reading some of his stuff. And it's like I love like like Jason said earlier, standing on the on the shoulders of giants.

I feel like we just throw out stuff because it's old. I love the history of the church. I love the history of our forefathers and the martyrs and what they went through.

And it's like you give me one of those guys that rightly understood their place next to a holy, righteous, just and sovereign

God. I will read it. Packer, you know, you've got to listen.

Truths we confess by our seats. Well, I mean, these guys are. Yeah, yeah. I probably said all the ones. Oh, no.

Yeah. I'm just sitting here just agreeing with all of it is true. I mean, those are those are some of the best.

I mean, and you know, again, not putting these guys on a pedestal. But you know what?

I mean, like I'm so thankful for people like Dr. White, I am so thankful for Doug Wilson.

You know, I am so thankful. Even, you know, Jeff Durbin, he's younger.

He's our age. But man, that guy is so studied. Yeah. And he understands, you know, theology in in the history.

I mean, like he's one of those people that seems like he's just going through everything, just just learning as much as he can.

And just knowing has his Christian worldview. Just just, you know, he's he's figuring he's he's got it figured out.

You know, Greg Bonson. I mean, so, so many, so many of these guys, man, it's just a blessing to be able to sit down and read these words alongside of Scripture and to know that they learned out of, you know, from Scripture.

Right. But yeah. But anyway. So what about you? Because, oh, God, Jason turned me on to the bar.

And man, if you want to just listen to eschatology and roll that around. Yeah, he's awesome. And life. Oh, Gary.

Gary Demar. Awful guy, man. Yeah. So so what about this?

I know a lot of times we think and we'll wrap this up, guys. I apologize. All right. And you also long.

Yeah, I appreciate this. So we always throw these, you know, we've got these big name theologians that we all throw out.

Do you all have anybody like personally in your lives that have radically affected your faith for the

Lord and fed you in the in in the faith? Oh, thank you.

The word. Wow. Because we we overlook we overlook the. And this isn't for me, but this is just in general.

We overlook the pastors of our day. Yeah. Oh, 100%. Yeah. You know, we don't think about for me personally.

And I shouldn't even talk about me because I'm here to talk, let you all talk about yourselves. But for me personally,

I mean, I would have to say growing up as a as a youth, the church

I got saved at my youth director. Man, it makes me it tears me up just to talk about it, because I mean, this was a man who who loved

God, who loved God's word, who poured his time. He he he poured the truth of God's word into my life.

And and, you know, these these big theologians, these famous people are certainly beneficial.

But where would where would I have been as a young as a teenager not having that word poured and taught into me like it was?

So, I mean, do you all have anybody personally? Oh, sure, I have a few.

But yeah, Jason, you got anyone off the top of your head? Um, yeah, I mean, you know, the the the pastor that I was talking about out of the

IFB, I mean, he he was a very thoughtful pastor that just I mean, you know, again,

I mean, some of that stuff that he was preaching, you know, now I know that it was off, but man, he he he taught with such passion.

Yeah, there was something about what I mean when I was five years old. I mean,

I I mean, I, you know, I truly believe that I was saved when I was five years old. I went into apostasy.

You know, now I know that. But you know what? The Lord never let me go out of his hand.

I truly believe what John says. But but yeah,

I think Pastor Perkins right here growing up, man, he he really affected my life, affected my family's life and really was a great shepherd with the tools that he had.

He was he was well read from what I understand now. But yeah, yeah.

Pastor Perkins. Greg, what about you, sir? Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, there's throughout my life, the

Lord has always through his providence just weaved in people that that I needed for that moment in time, you know.

And I mean, when I came when I was saved at 24, like I said, said the sinner's prayer,

I knew who God was, but really felt I was saved at 24. I started going to this little church with about 15 people.

It was a mixed church. He was a black bivocational pastor from Huntsville, Alabama.

OK, and in now looking back on it 20 years later, I don't really have a whole lot in common with him theologically.

OK, his passion for wanting to see people saved and taking some ragtag kids and 24 year old white kids still have strung out on Xanax and Coke and Percocet and everything else.

And just going, hey, you're going to be my armor bearer. I don't know what that was. There's a Pentecostal black culture.

Like, here's a take you under my wing. And I'm going to tell you that God doesn't call you to be perfect, but he calls you to be holy.

And he just kept speaking that into me. Right. You're not supposed to be perfect, but you're supposed to be holy. Like we're going to, you know, and it was just, you know, set apart, different, unique, and just his passion for wanting.

I mean, this is a guy that he's to this day. I just saw him. I saw him after 10 years. He came up to Michigan and his funny story.

And he's probably early 60s. He goes down to the Kentucky Derby and he stands there with a bullhorn and he prays over people.

And he goes, Brother Greg, you want to see evilness on display. You go to the Kentucky Derby with a dress. And they're right.

And he's just saying, hey, there's still time. The Lord loves you. We want to see you in glory. Yeah. And at a young age,

I just went, who is this guy? I mean, he's working at Ford 40 hours a week, working as a pastor at the small church, probably another 20, 30 hours a week.

And for any bivocational pastors out there. Oh, my gosh. You know, hats off to you. I mean, it's what's that?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm talking about Pastor C. Yeah. You know, you know who he is, right? Well, I've met him in passing.

Yeah. Yeah. And no, so that was that was one. I've had some guys in church. Brett Ansel, Tim Murphy, and more recently, even

Greg Withrow. He runs a reformed church here locally to where I've reached out to him, asked him questions, talked to him, and he just spoke things into my life.

I feel, you know, for every one person you're mentoring, you should have three people mentoring you. That's just my rule in life.

So I'm always looking for guys that I can be, you know, hold me accountable, that can pour into me, teach me that I can go to and ask questions about.

And hopefully we can then pass that on as we grow and get older and pass it on to the younger guys that we know.

But yeah, absolutely. Good. Good. Great question. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. It is just so important that we that we don't overlook the blessings that are right in front of us.

Yeah. Amen. Right. Right. So. All right. Let's listen. We'll end on a little bit lighter note here in 10 seconds.

Tell us. Ten seconds, Greg, you're first. Hold on. I just I want to interject.

I can tell that Claude's a pastor because he's ended three times. Yeah. I'm just wrapping it up.

Another 20 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. We love it. That's all right. No, no. This is great. Did you did y 'all see the meme that the most recent one about when somebody says when the pastor says,

I got to quit preaching and somebody says, preach on, pastor. And the little baby's eyes are big and they're looking at the person like, shut your mouth.

For real. For real. That's the reason I gave a time limit. 10 seconds,

Greg. Who's your favorite heretic, both dead and alive? If there is such a thing.

Heretic, both dead and alive. Yeah. Favorite. Favorite dead heretic. Oh, probably

Oral Roberts. OK. I mean, then alive. Oh, Kenneth Copeland or Stephen Furtick.

I mean, they're all so nuts. Maybe Bill Johnson, I throw in there. Yeah. Right. You're going to say, are those guys who asked your favorite?

You only get it on the Heroic Stand Theology podcast. But again, you got to know the false line, the truth.

So I was thinking too recent. I feel like I should go back, you know, I was

I was going to say for dead, it would be Arminius, the guy, Jacobus Arminius.

Come on. Oh, OK. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, he was he was an Arminian, not a heretic, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. We still love Arminians. Well, aren't Arminians heretic? No, I won't be in heaven and then

God will set him straight. That's exactly right. When when you get to heaven, everybody becomes Calvinist. Amen.

So, Jason, go ahead. Dead or alive. Dead. Dead. I'd go with. Yeah. Oral Roberts.

I mean that. Yeah. That was a little nuts. And then probably alive.

I got to choose. I mean, I could go with Todd White. I mean, you know, like it's sad, man.

It is sad because he's so he's got such a zeal, you know, like, man. He dipped into the

Charles Spurgeon. Yeah, I know. I know. And we and we talked about that on the podcast. And I mean, man,

I would love to see him reformed. That was that was discouraging there.

I mean, it was like it was like a bright, shining glimmer of hope. And then straight back down into the toilet.

Yeah, back down. And I don't sin at all. Can I just say here for your listeners, too, it's not because we're sitting here and we're like, oh, we don't like this certain person or we're ragging on this person.

It's like, look at one. We don't want the name of God to be blasphemed. Yeah, because we know his name is holy and we know what he's done for us in our life, too.

We don't want people being misled. Yeah, our commission is to preach the gospel, the good news and the truth.

And through that, if God so chooses, people will be saved. So it's like not because it's certain personalities or it's us versus them.

I want to make that clear. Like we joke about it, Jason, but we've had this discussion. We want people to come and know the one and true living

God through the true preaching of the gospel. We don't want anything watered down halfway, false gospel, part gospel.

We want you to know God as he truly is. And these guys that we're talking about, they give you sometimes a false or half gospel, which is no gospel at all.

Right. And I applaud that's what you try to do every Sunday in your pulpit, right? I mean, your job as a shepherd is to give the unadulterated truth and the true gospel and what the

Bible says. And that's how we know God. And that's how we become closer to God. And that's how we become effective as well.

Yeah, yeah. Amen. That's exactly right. So guys, I'm 100 % in agreement.

If y 'all got to check it out or if any of your watchers would like to check it out, go to Hear Austen Theology Podcast. I have just recently done two episodes on Jonathan Cahn.

I don't know if you know anybody about him. The Cahn is not a pun, but he is a

Cahn. If you all get a chance, go check it out. I did two episodes. I was going to do three, but I would have ended up throwing something through the window here if I had to sit through another one.

It would have been bad. But guys, I mean this from the bottom of my heart in sincerity.

We love you all in the Lord. Thank God for you all for the work that you do. Thank you again for taking the time to be on this podcast with us.

So before we sign off here, the most important thing and the very focus of this podcast, as you all have spoken throughout, is that the gospel is presented.

So if you're watching this podcast, we would like to let you know that the scriptures teach that none of us are good, that we're all sinners separated from God by our sins, and that Christ Jesus came, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life in order so that he could be the propitiation for our sins, so that he could be our sin bearer.

He died on the cross, was taken down from that cross, put in the grave, buried for three days, came out alive forevermore, ascended to the

Father where he sits at the right hand of God, and he ever lives, never to die again, to make intercession for you.

The command to you as a listener is simply this from the gospel. Believe. Repent of your sin.

Believe what Christ has done, and you will be saved. Guys, we're going to sign off. I ask you to hang on for just a minute.

We'll play the closing banner here, and then we'll stop recording and come right back.