September 28, 2004

The Dividing Line Opens and the Week’s Schedule

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602. Or toll free across the United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is James White.

You know, I hope Steve Camp never sees that comment from Kevin Channel just now, because Kevin said he can't believe this song was ever meant for anything but bumper music. In fact, I have funny stories about Run to the Battle, but I really, it would be improper to share them on the air.

Yes, it is The Dividing Line, we're back. And yes, we did do a program last week. I kept getting all these people saying, where's the program from Tuesday? And I was like, I don't know, talk to the guy who puts it up, the guy on the other side of the road.

Yeah, a wall there, I don't have anything to do with that. But we were not here on Thursday, because we were down in sort of another land, you know. Texas is just sort of a nation unto itself, and it's good to know Texas is still around.

Because when you have to drive around in San Francisco and see what you see in San Francisco, and when you have to go to New York and just know who the senators from there are and Massachusetts and things like that, we really need to pray for our brethren who live in those places.

And then you get down to Texas and, you know, people have plain old common sense, and they wear boots, and they carry guns, and I almost shipped mine down. I should have, and I didn't. Man, I wish I had.

We would have had so much fun down there in Texas. But anyway, we won't get into that right now for the sensitivities of those of you who live in places where you don't have a lot of freedoms. In fact, we have friends over in England.

I'm going to be heading over there in March of next year. And we're in England. I even had some folks who had British accents there at the conference, the founders' conference. It was very good. And they sounded just like me, and they thought I had a good accent.

They did, you know. So anyway, I'm telling you, I'm going to do the program from over there. It would be like, you know, 1 o 'clock in the morning, but we need to do a program from over in England where I just do the whole thing just for the English folks.

Anybody for that? Just put your hands up. I'm seeing hands. Yes, I see a hand in the back. Yes. Bless you, sir. Bless you. And there in the back, yes. I still remember how to do that. So why does it sound like my microphone is disappearing?

I'm not sure what's going on here. Anyhow, we are back. And, boy, do we have a lot of stuff going on. I just updated the calendar just yesterday. I mean, it used to be the calendar page on our website was actually the historical page because it was telling you what we did two years ago.

And it's now. I'm afraid people don't look there. I mean, even folks in channels say, so what are you doing now? Where are you going now? And I've had this stuff on the calendar page forever, and I'm afraid people didn't, you know, they just gave up looking at it.

And so you all need to look at the calendar page because I updated it. And while I was in Texas, I got a call about doing something in like two weeks. I mean, we're talking really short notice here. I normally don't do that.

But given the church and who it was, I said, yeah, okay, we can work that out. And so we're going to be going three different places. Four. No, three. Three different places during October. Little Rock, Edmond, Oklahoma, and Peoria, Illinois.

And then, of course, first thing in November is Los Angeles. And then I've also added on the website the first weekend in December we're going to be in St. Louis. And with the folks at Covenant of Grace Church again.

And I think this will be the third, maybe the fourth time I've been there. These poor folks, they just keep having me back. They're sort of like the folks in normal Illinois. Those are just a couple of the churches that just, you know, there are only a few places that have me back.

It's amazing. I've really tried to learn what that might mean. And anyway, we're going to be heading back there in early December, the first weekend in December. Which, did we do that last year or the year before?

I can't remember which one it was. But we've done that first weekend in December there before. And I enjoy getting that shot of cold air in St. Louis. It sort of puts me in the holiday spirit at that point in time.

And anyway, we're going to be talking about the Debating Calvinism book. I would love to have Dave Hunt show up, you know. We still want to have that Dave Hunt debate. It would be great. It would be wonderful.

We're still open to doing it. But, you know, it's been really, really quiet on that front for a long time. You know, I suppose if we had boundless energy, we could be following his schedule around and getting tapes from churches.

And we'd probably find all sorts of interesting stuff to play like we did that one time. The only reason we did that one time is someone contacted us and said, Oh, hey, did you hear what such and such a person said?

And so we just don't have time to. I mean, a lot of folks don't realize this ministry has two employees. Yes, two. And you're talking to one of them and the other one every once in a while pops in and mutters stuff at us.

And so that's it. And we have some great volunteers but don't have the time to be chasing Dave Hunt around. I mean, I suppose we could assign someone the job of chasing Dave Hunt around. But, you know, that's not really something I'd ever want to ask somebody to do.

So anyway, we're going to be talking about debating Calvinism there. Oh, and by the way, in my hand I have a little book here. I'll reach over here and actually pull it off the shelf. Scripture Alone, Exploring the Bible's Accuracy, Authority, and Authenticity.

Here it is. Here's your introduction to Sola Scriptura. That's exactly what it's meant to be. This is the kind of book that you can get. I mean, I think it really lends itself to Bible studies, Sunday school lessons, use in classrooms as an introductory text, that kind of stuff.

And ours haven't arrived. We can't fulfill the pre-orders quite yet, so you can keep pre-ordering. But my author copies arrived, and we're really hoping for even today to get these things. And then I will begin doing the long process, and it is a long process, of signing the ones that have been pre-ordered and shipping them out to you folks who have already requested them.

And obviously it's that time of the year. This is the type of book that I would get for elders. If you are not an elder in the church, that's a good book to give to elders, especially to encourage them in standing firm on the scriptures as the sole infallible rule of faith of the church.

And so they should be here soon. I mean, the author's copies normally arrive very, very close the same time as the rest of them that you have ordered, and so that is now available. And I'm hoping to see folks ordering multiple copies so that they can give them away, especially to people who are in a position to really need them.

And this is a good way to inoculate folks against your standard attacks against the scripture launched by people such as the Roman Catholic apologists on solo scriptura and also Mormon apologists, issues like that.

It deals with numerous topics. Looking at the table of contents here, arguments, the nature of God's holy word, inerrancy and exegesis, the canon of scripture, did Thomas write a gospel, allegations of corruption, allegations of contradiction, tradition, the church, and the development of doctrine, the Lord spoke to me saying, scriptural sufficiency, nothing new, and conclusion, forever settled in heaven.

And it's a fairly easy read, only 220 some odd pages, so it's right around the same size as The Forgotten Trinity, and it should be shipping fairly soon. So you can hit the aomin .org page, and if you've been putting it off, then you need to try to track that down.

So anyway, 877 -753 -3341. As I said, we are in Dallas, Southwest Founders Conference. Bob Self was there. Unfortunately, a couple of the other gentlemen that were supposed to be there weren't able to be there due to various and sundry things, mainly the fact that they're all pastors and there were things going on in their churches that required their presence, but got to know the folks down there at Heritage Baptist Church, and like I said, a very enjoyable being down in Texas, fit in there quite well in more than one way, and was very appreciative of the fact that they were appreciative of my ministry.

I don't consider myself much of a preacher, so when they have you preaching all the time, that sort of worries me a little bit. But I was able to give some presentations, PowerPoint presentations, had to rush to the Mormon presentation on Sunday afternoon and didn't get to say everything I wanted to say there, but had a great time with the folks down there, and they made rumblings about my going back.

Mansfield, Texas. They're having the same thing happen there that we have here in Phoenix. Everything's growing. They're just building stuff right, left, upside down. It's just everywhere. Unbelievable.

And a quick update on something else. I posted right before I left, and we already have two folks online. We'll go to our calls here in a second at 877 -753 -3341. But I want to give you a little bit of an update on my daughter, Summer, and the odd happenings there.

I posted right before I went to Texas a blog article where I provided the text of a letter. It was just an assignment. The students were assigned to write a letter on something that they felt passionate about, and they were to research their subject.

They could look up statistics and things like that to substantiate their point. You can see there. That's where she got into trouble. My daughter knows what substantiating a point means. My daughter has grown up going to things that her father is involved with, and she was there at the Barry Lynn debate.

She was at the Staples debate. I think maybe both Staples debates in Los Angeles. She's been to debates on Long Island, a couple of those, at least two of those. And so she has seen what happens to my opponents when they present unsubstantiated personal opinions.

In cross-examination, unsubstantiated personal opinions tend to make you really look badly when you are cross-examined on those issues. And so she knows what substantiating opinion is about. And this was supposed to be a letter that was going to be sent to the president.

So when I was her age, if somebody told me this letter was going to be sent to the president, I would really put some effort into it. And she did. She spent three hours on it, and she researched it and put together.

And she could have gone much longer than she did. You had a limitation. In fact, I posted the directions, exactly what she had to do, and you'll see she did exactly what she was told to do. The directions are right there, right above her letter, if you follow through.

She did everything she was supposed to do and the way she was supposed to do it. But, of course, she failed. And she was the only person to fail. It wasn't that she just had half the points taken off.

It wasn't she had five points taken off. No, she was given no credit at all for the assignment. And I think it's very obvious why that is. I think anyone who reads the letter considers our postmodern NEA-style context in which that letter was presented, knows why she was the only one in the class who was failed, why she was the only one subjected to the standards that she was subjected to.

And so to make a long story short, of course, in God's providence, that letter now has been read by thousands of more people than read any of the other students' letters. And, in fact, thanks be, there are certain people who listen to this broadcast and who read the blog who are a part of the Bush administration.

And we were contacted by someone with connections there who has promised us that I sent the letter along with the cover letter out to them and that it will be hand-delivered to the President of the United States, which the probabilities of the other letters, if the teacher had not suppressed this, because she wouldn't send the letter.

She refused to send the letter to the President. And so those other letters probably will never be seen by the President. How many thousands of letters do you think are sent to the President each day?

But this one will, and so in God's providence. But even though they offered to Summer that she could redo her letter, in essence, dumb it down, the teacher originally said, I need to find out if these are your words.

That's a charge of plagiarism, obviously. And when I demonstrated that this was not plagiarism, I wrote a letter to the teacher when she kept sort of not getting around to answering the question as to whether Summer was getting credit or not.

She changed it from that to, well, this does not express her voice. And Summer has eloquently expressed to the teacher and to the principal in my presence that this does express her voice. And in essence, what she's being told is a sophomore's voice should not be this well-founded, and a sophomore's voice should not be rooted in fact and should not be rooted in research.

And in essence, she did too much work, and she refuses. She did what she was told to do. She has followed the directions, and she refuses to do it for partial credit. And then they said, well, okay, we'll let you do it for full credit.

She says, no, I already did it for full credit. And if you're not going to give me full credit, then, you know, I guess that's your responsibility. I did the assignment. And so we're just going to have to trust the Lord with issues like scholarships down the road, because if she keeps going like this, her grade point average is going to suffer as a result.

But I think the Lord will reward her in other ways, and we'll just have to trust the Lord to find ways of letting her go where she wants to go. But I tell you, a Christian student faces challenges today that I didn't face in that day.

I was public school, and I know all you homeschoolers are going, oh, you wouldn't have that problem if she was homeschooled. Well, you know, we're really not in a position to do that. And she was in a Christian school, and she didn't like it.

She liked her teachers and stuff. But the fact of the matter is, a lot of Christian schools are filled with young people who couldn't make it in the public school system, and mom and dad have enough money to ship them off someplace else.

And she didn't like that. She likes the school she's in. She really, really does. She likes the school. She likes the kids. She says they're not stuck up, which is important for her. And she likes it there.

And, in fact, there's sort of some pressure, you know, there's a suggestion has been that maybe it would be good if Summer went to another school. And Summer doesn't want to go to another school. So I don't think it would be fair to kick Summer out of school for having done too much work.

But that's what we face in the educational system today. So it's an odd thing. Anyhow, that's the situation as it stands. And Summer is going to I asked her to write up some thoughts on her part concerning what she's learned from all of this, and she's going to be doing that and began work on that recently.

And so I will be posting that as time goes by and keeping you abreast of any new developments, though I don't know that there could really be any new developments at this point. Summer has said, no, I'm not redoing it.

And the letter's gone to the president. And, you know, I certainly hope to hear back from the president. And I think if it was almost any other time other than the middle of debate preparation and debate performance in the election, that would almost be a lock.

But I recognize, you know, the guy's got a little bit on his plate at the moment. And so who knows? We'll see what happens. But that is the situation there. So anyhow, that's linked on the website. And you can take a look at it there.

If you had not noticed that on the blog, you can take a look at that. And so anyway, 877 -753 -3341. Remember the last program? We did this big thing on Phillips, Craig, and Dean. And then I was supposed to be on for an hour right afterwards, and we never got a call.

We've heard nothing. It's just like that entire radio station was, I was going to say, raptured off the planet, but that would be an improper terminology. It just disappeared. Poof, gone. And if I recall correctly, we left messages.

And did we ever? I never heard anything back. If we did hear something back, I was not informed of it. Never did, yeah. So I don't know what happened. Maybe Phillips, Craig, and Dean called up and said, you ain't talking about us.

No, no, no, not unless you got your lawyers present or something. I don't know. Who knows? I'm completely lost. But that was all we did. We didn't get a chance to talk about it up there in the great northwest or north central or whatever Minneapolis is.

It's up there near Canada. Let's put it that way. The great cold white north or whatever. So we didn't get a chance to talk about it. So that's life. Just thought I'd let you know about that. 877 -753 -3341.

Hermeneutics, Postmodernism, and the Meaning of Scripture

We have two folks online, so let's go ahead and take our first call. Let's talk with Chuck up in Michigan. Hi, Chuck. Hey. How are you doing?

How are you doing, Dr. White? Doing all right? Hey, thanks so much for taking my call. I was calling. Well, actually, if I could take a quick second here just to give you my situation. I am a campus staffer with a church-based college ministry up here at Michigan State University.

Okay. And of late, we have been encountering just a number of folks asking some questions about our style of church government. And we're like you guys. We have a plurality of elders, and we believe that the biblical teaching concerning elders is that that is a position in the church reserve for men who meet the character qualities listed in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.

We've been encountering a number of folks who would be more egalitarian in their perspective on that. And what's come up is not so much the egalitarian position, because I'm somewhat familiar with that, but there have been two hermeneutic approaches that I'd never heard before until like the last month or two.

One's called a postmodern hermeneutic, and the other is called a redemptive movement hermeneutic that apparently has been made somewhat famous by a fellow named William Webb who came out with a book I think in 2001 called Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals.

I don't know if you'd heard of that at all or become familiar with that.

Well, that's odd because that would have been right around the time that we were working on the homosexual book. And so I'm a little surprised that that didn't come up. It's William J. Webb forwarded by Daryl Bach.

That's interesting. Published by IVP. Retail price $25. Yee-haw. You can always tell it's mass marketed when they're $25 right off the top. Yeah, redemptive hermeneutic. His goal is not to discuss how these groups are to be seen in light of scripture, but to make a case for a specific hermeneutical approach to reading these texts.

This book not only advances a discussion of the topics. Why is everything... I'm sorry, I'm trying to fix the grammar of this as I'm reading it. I'm serious. Now the verbs and the nouns are matching in number here.

This book not only advances a discussion of the topics. There we go. But it also takes a markedly new direction toward establishing common ground where possible, potentially breaking down certain walls of hostility within the evangelical community.

Oh, goody. Those were not words used to describe my book on homosexuality. I just wanted to mention that in passing.

Well, I think if I... And again, I'm just starting to get exposed to this stuff. I haven't had an opportunity yet, in fairness, to read the book and see what he says. My understanding from other folks who have read it is that he would see the prohibitions against homosexuality in the Bible as being trans-cultural, and therefore would not take a pro-homosexual position as some other folks do.

But, again, concerning the egalitarian position, he would see using his differentiation between men and women in their responsibilities and roles within the family and the church to be diminished more and more to where he would argue that today, in the 21st century, in the church, that differentiation of role in that is tremendous to help, to me personally, as well as being able to help other folks in our ministry and our church up here in Michigan.

And as far as I said, I didn't know if you had, in your travels or conversations or interacting with folks, had come across the Bible interpretation.

Yeah, you've got to realize that the terminology used, especially when it's a terminology developed by a particular author, can be, you know, unless you've actually encountered that particular author, that particular author's ideas may or may not be overly descriptive of what they're trying to say.

For example, in the Scripture Alone book, I present a view of the canon based upon canon one and canon two. I've never seen anybody else do that. A lot of the substance of my view, I've discovered, was expressed in certain fashions by B .B. Warfield.

So it's not like I'm alone on it. But the working out of it does seem to be rather unique as far as that goes. So, you know, someone could look at that and they may not know what in the world I'm referring to at that particular point without looking at it.

Due to the miracle of the Internet, the book you mentioned is now on order. But I can't guarantee, especially between now and the debate, that I'm going to have any opportunity to look at it. There's a few other things I need to be doing.

But a postmodern hermeneutic, I immediately, you know, would assume that this is, I've seen some, this is probably associated with a denial of what they call foundationalism and probably is attempting to say, look, since we live in a postmodern context, then we need to apply a hermeneutic to the scriptures that is going to communicate the meaning of the scriptures within our cultural context.

The problem being, of course, that we're talking about a fundamental denial of the worldview of the original authors and hence the definition of their words, the use of their grammar, the meaning that would be derived from examining their context would be thrown out the window.

And hence you can't logically or rationally be saying that you are representing what those original writers intended. But in postmodernism, that's not the point. In fact, it's funny, I won't get overly specific here, but my daughter did mention a certain teacher who said in class recently, your opinion is your truth.

And, you know, so I immediately said, yes, but does that teacher grade on the basis of accepting that? Good question. I don't think she does, nor could she. But anyway, that's neither here nor there, but it is the postmodernism.

And so I don't know the specifics of how anyone could logically create a postmodern system of hermeneutics in regards to the scriptures, in other words, in regards to reading ancient texts. It's one thing for a postmodernist to write in such a way that you need to use a postmodern hermeneutic to understand that postmodernism.

But, you know, that makes sense to me. But as far as this other perspective goes, when you have to create a hermeneutic for particularly troubling and challenging topics in our modern situation that you either do not or probably in most situations could not apply to the rest of scripture, that immediately sends up, should send up big red flags.

I mean, the thing that I try to explain to folks is when you see a denomination or a person or whatever, and they use one consistent methodology, one consistent hermeneutic, every place else but one place.

All of a sudden, one place, they just jump the track and they start using this completely different methodology. That is the tradition detector. That's where you find where someone is not consistently holding to sola scriptura.

They're holding to a tradition. The scriptures don't support that tradition, so they have to use a different hermeneutic method to drive that tradition. And so that sounds like the situation here. Certainly, as I look at the scriptures, the issue regarding the relationship of men and women is creation-based, as is the issue of homosexuality, not culture-based.

And that's the big thing in the egalitarian movement and things like that. So that's what you've got to look for. And it's interesting. Solid Ground Christian Books, and we've got to just get a hold of this.

This is what we need to do. We need to get a hold of Mike Gadosh at Solid Ground Christian Books, and we need to carry this. He's put back in print, and I think it's from the 1880s, a work on hermeneutics.

And the reason that's important, the reason I would like to have that available, is that this is prior to a number of what I would call clearly foreign insertions of non-biblical ideas that have even deeply influenced conservatives in their hermeneutics and their exegesis of scripture.

Can you give an example of that?

Well, yeah. I mean, look at the entire thing about New Perspectivism. When you look at New Perspectivism, one of the things that feeds into that that most conservatives aren't even aware of is the fact that, especially in European and British exegesis and theology today, ever since World War II, there is a tremendous fear of being seen as being anti-Semitic.

If you want to use a word that will make sure that some other guy doesn't ever get his tenure, or ever get published again, say that something he said was anti-Semitic. And as a result, someone like E .P. Sanders can write an entire book on the view of New Testament Judaism, Tanaitic Judaism, Second Temple Judaism, and stuff like Matthew 23 is not even allowed to speak to one element of what was historically the case.

And so there are entire passages in Paul and in the Gospels that just basically are ignored because of a fear of that. And so you have that kind of stuff. Yeah, the name of the book. I knew you were going to ask something like that.

I'm going to have to, maybe during the break, I can track it down in my stuff here. But I'll try to find it, and when I do, I'll let everybody know, and we'll see if we can't track it down. But it would be something I'd suggest to you, because even though its style would not be as accessible in the sense that its typesetting would be an older style and things like that, as far as the practice of exegesis and things like that, it would be really useful.

Awesome. Can I ask you one quick practical question?

Yeah, I need to take a break. If you'd like, I can hold you over real quick, because we've got Tim in South Carolina, too, but I don't see any others. So hold on just a second. I'll have Rich put you on hold, and we'll go ahead and take our break.

And I will look for the name of this book, and maybe somebody on the channel got the email from Solid Ground, too, and you can tell me about it. We'll be right back.

Justification, Bible Translation, and the Auburn Avenue Debate

It's all works righteousness, you know. And I manufacture grace, myself and I, in some religious place. By weeping hard on your face, or saying prayers to some dead saint, you know.

At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself. It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified, but about the very meaning of justification and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Once a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the Reformers, the doctrine of justification is now being challenged from within the walls of Reformed Evangelicalism itself. Join Alpha and Omega Ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue, justification, the heart of the gospel, with pastor and co-author of Holy Scripture, the ground and pillar of our faith, David King, the president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Founders Conference, Tom Askell, New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of Evangelical Answers, Eric Svensson, the founder of the Spurgeon Archive and executive director of Grace to You, Philip Johnson, nationally renowned Reformed Christian artist, Steve Camp, and the founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and author, Dr. James White.

Join us at the Los Angeles, California LAX Sheraton Ballroom on November 6, 2004, beginning at 845 a .m. Seating is limited, so order your tickets now at aomin .org. That's www .aomin .org.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the word of God, James White, in his book, The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt Scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith.

In a readable and responsible style, author James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www .aomin .org.

Convictions once held and died for among Bible-believing Protestants are now being reconsidered with the advent of the recent Auburn Avenue Movement. Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants?

Were the signers of ECT correct in their ecumenical efforts and all of the Reformed scholars who opposed them in error? Does Trinitarian Baptism make one a member of the New Covenant? Are Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?

Join us in Los Angeles, California on November 5, 2004 for a full three hours of moderated debate between Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue Movement and New St. Andrews College as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints.

Additional information and tickets can be ordered at aomin .org. That's www .aomin .org.

Ah, the wonders of the Internet. Opening Scripture, a hermeneutical manual introducing the exegetical study of the New Testament by Patrick Fairbairn. Is it Fair-Bain? Is the R silent there or is it Fair-Bairn?

I don't know, but he's dead so I can't ask. 500-page hardback and paperback are available. Roger Nicole contends it is high time in the midst of controversies in which all kinds of accusations are leveled against the youth of the Old Testament.

By New Testament authors, the painstaking work of Patrick Fairbairn and his monumental scholarship be once again taken into consideration. Sinclair Ferguson. I have a copy of Fairbairn and often wondered why it hasn't been reprinted.

I suspect the title has put off publishers. Hermeneutical plus manual being a bit much for today's readers. I think Fairbairn was really an extraordinarily able man and a great servant of the church. So I'm enthusiastic about this reprint.

I likewise sent a little note on it as well. And so that is what I was referring to there. And that is something that I think we need to contact Solid Ground Christian Books and see if we can't help to get that out as well and make it available.

So we will try to do that. Let's get back and find out about this practical question from Chuck before we talk to Tim. Let's go back to Chuck. Hi, Chuck.

Hey. Yes, sir. The practical question has to do with the different hermeneutic approaches. And usually I don't have a problem if we're coming from a literal, historical, grammatical perspective, trying to work through the text, work through the grammar and the context and the purpose of the book and all that stuff.

In your experience, how do you approach interacting and trying to persuade someone of your view when you don't have that common ground, when they're approaching it with a completely different hermeneutic where you don't have that common ground between each other?

Well, a real practical response to that would be to start, especially if you're communicating with them in writing, would be to start treating their writings the way they're suggesting you treat the text of Scripture.

Quite simply. I mean, that's what I did with Harold Camping. A lot of folks haven't picked up my book on Harold Camping for a couple of reasons, part of it being, well, you know, Harold Camping, obviously, and that's what I was going to do.

I had a Harold Camping thing. Oh, man, not that. I remembered anyway, so we'll maybe remember it for Thursday. This little book, Dangerous Airwaves, contains a whole thing on hermeneutical methodology.

You had to have that simply to deal with what in the world he is attempting to say and his utterly inane means of dealing with the subject of hermeneutics. Let me look here just really, really quickly.

Here it is. This is on pages 47 and 48. I went through this and I said, Would Mr. Camping desire to allow you to use allegorical interpretation on his own writings and teachings? For example, Mr. Camping asserted, We read in verse 4, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.

Now, that's a very negative statement because this is a picture of the church and somehow they're not recognizing Jesus. There's a major defect in their understanding of what Jesus is doing, what Jesus' program is.

I said, Let us first apply sound principles of interpretation in this passage. Mr. Camping is talking about the end of the church age as he interprets it. He is drawing from John chapter 21, verse 4, which then determines the context in which to read his comments.

He is speaking of Jesus and his post-resurrection appearance to the disciples that is recorded in John 21. Mr. Camping understands the statement that the apostles did not know it was Jesus standing on the shore is a negative thing for he believes the apostles as a group are acting as a picture of the church in this passage.