THE HERE I STAND THEOLOGY PODCAST Interview with Ryan Denton - "Even If None" Reclaiming Biblical Evangelism

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Here I Stand Theology Podcast today. Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reasons and not by poets and counsels who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the

Word of God. Here I stand. I can do no other one.

God help me. Well, welcome, brother.

Welcome to the Here I Stand Theology Podcast. Good to be on here, man. It's been a long time, so yeah,

I'm grateful to be here. Like I said, we have been expectantly waiting for this opportunity to have you on today and to get you to give us the author's insight on your book,

Even If None. In case anybody needs a better view of that, let's just put it up there.

Even If None, Reclaiming Biblical Evangelism. That's what we're going to be talking about today.

So I asked Ryan to send us three of his favorite memes. We'll just start with this because this is the easy part.

The memes are always the easy and the fun part. So let's bring in Ryan's first meme that he sent to me as his favorite meme, and let's hear why

Ryan chose this meme. Caesar is now a salad dressing.

Jesus is still the king. Tell us about that, Ryan. That's right. Well, it's just ironic because if you go back 2 ,000 years ago,

Caesar is the power and he's the force, the heyday. He's the man, and little does he know or anyone really else in the

Roman Empire, little do they know that within 300, 400 years, Rome is going to be impotent and eventually wiped out, and Christ and his kingdom is going to be more and more prominent.

So the irony, of course, today is that you look around and you don't hear anyone really talking about Caesar anymore except in the salad dressing, but Christ, he's got his stamp on everything.

Amen. Still king of kings and still little lords. That's right. Amen. All right.

So let's jump to the next one here real quick. Let me try to master my mouse skills here.

This one is always a classic one. This is always fantastic. This is always pleasant to see.

So we have St. Nick punching Arius, correct? That's correct. That's right. That's right. That is correct.

And this is, you know, this is, of course, it's humorous, but I think there's an element to it that I feel like we have lost in our culture as far as our regard for doctrine and theology.

We don't really, and I'm speaking generally, we don't really see the need for taking it that seriously.

And clearly that was not the case with St. Nick over here when it came to Arius.

And, of course, it went both ways, Arius and Arians. They were very serious about their theology as well.

And as we'll see with maybe a little bit today, if we get into it, but Augustine and those guys, you know, so, of course,

Luther. I mean, all these guys, there's a reason why they were willing to risk their life and die for their faith and for the things they believed in.

And I think it's good for us to reflect on that and ask ourselves, is that the culture,

Christian culture that we live in? And if not, why not? Right.

And actually, after we get through your last meme here, I've got one for us to look at, which refers to exactly what you're saying there.

So sometimes people just need to be busted in the mouth. Of course, in Christian love, we mean that.

Yeah. In the best way. So this meme, I thought, was a very good kind of a lead in from that or to follow from that.

So if you had to pick one as your pastor, one as your professor, one as your best friend, and one you have to fist fight, who would you choose as your pastor from this list?

John Calvin. Boom. No doubt about it. All right. How about your professor? I would say probably

Bob Inc. Okay.

Third, what about your best friend? Yeah. So I think

Augustine. If you read Augustine, man, he was a good friend. He was a good friend. I think Augustine. You know, that's a hard choice.

There's a lot of good guys out there. Yeah, Augustine. And last of all, who would you bust in the mouth? Man, I was, you know,

I've been eyeballing Finney, but Finney, if you look at Finney, Finney is, it looks like a dude you don't want to mess with.

I thought that too. Yeah. So I might take, you know,

Arminius. Arminius, I think, looks like a guy that would be right.

And then, of course, Cervetus is a little too old.

I don't, I feel like that would be in the picture. So I don't, I don't, he would probably still get me.

That's hilarious that you make that connection, because that's exactly some of the things that I thought about their age.

I thought I wouldn't hit a person that old. But Finney does look mean. Finney looks like.

Yeah, he's crazy dude, man. Finney looks like. Yeah, but I would love, you know, theologically, he's definitely a nemesis.

All right. So let's bring up this, your last meme here real quick.

And this one's for you, Clyde, you're going to like this one. Ah, so let's see what's happening here with this one.

Like I don't already know, but. So here we go.

So break this down for me. Well, you know, so it's just a, it's a, it's a runny joke, man.

I was, I was a second London Baptist confession of faith guy, you know, three or four years ago.

So I, now, now I'm, now I'm a Presbyterian and, and, and the banter goes both ways, you know how it is.

So, but the thing is, is, is yes, this is, this is a funny thing.

It's the 1689ers, you know, plagiarizing the Westminster. But of course, historically, there's a reason why they did that.

They wanted to express their unity between the, their, their belief in reform theology covenant theology, and that it was in line and consistent with, with most of the

Westminster confession. And so that's why there was that overlap, but it's, it's a, it's a great meme though.

It is funny. Hey man, it is very funny, but I'll tell you something that I found just recently, just this past week.

I was so thankful for it. Founders put out clips of some of the Q and a from the founders conference.

I don't know if you've seen it yet, but check this out. Presbyterians are just reformed

Baptists who can read. That's pretty good.

That's the first thing that I thought of when I saw that meme. Well, you know, it is nice though, because, you know, reform

Baptists and Presbyterians are they, I know when I was reformed Baptist, I'd rather yoke with the

Presbyterian than did a non reform Baptist any day of the week. So there's always been some good, good, good banter and, and good brotherly interaction between the two,

I think. Amen. Amen. All right. So now we're coming to the part of the program where we are going and you are only

Ron, you are the second person. You're only the second guest who has ever played this game that we're about to play.

Oh, that's great. So you're still fresh in this. We are about to do is we are about to play a game.

You big dummy, you big, big dummy, big dummy. See what you did. Oh no.

You big dummy. So we're the younger crowd.

Isn't going to know who in the world that was. Do you know who that was?

Oh, how old are you?

37. Oh man. I should know, right? Maybe.

Well, I'm 49. So, so Fred Sanford, have you ever heard of Sanford? Never. Who?

Sanford and son. Oh, I've heard of that. Yeah. I don't know who that is though. So that was a, that was an early sitcom from, from like the either seventies or the eighties.

Yeah. It's pretty old, but, but obviously you heard what he was saying.

He was saying you big. Yeah. Oh, I definitely heard that part. I read it too. And that was typically his response to his son

Lamont when his son Lamont would do something foolish or silly, or anybody that said something dumb, he would say you big dummy.

So this game goes like this. Basically, I'm going to ask you some questions. They may seem simple and they may seem foolish.

They may seem simple and foolish at the same time. A couple of them. We're not going to waste a lot of time on them, but, but some questions are just unanswerable.

Like for example, if you were to punch yourself and it hurts, does that make you weak or strong?

Right. Good question. Right. So a couple of other just unanswerable.

That'd make you a big dummy. That's right. That's exactly right. That would make you a big dummy.

So what let's, let's see just a couple of other questions here. If a vampire bites a zombie, does a zombie become a vampire?

Or does a vampire become a zombie? Who knows, right? Some questions are just unanswerable.

Is the word Q, just the letter Q with four silent letters after it?

I know if this is all dad joke stuff, but, so here's the question.

First question. If there is a correct answer, you should give the correct answer.

If there's a wrong answer, hit the button, pretend like you have a button and we'll play you big dummy.

So the first question is pretty straightforward. If you had the choice to listen all day long to a

Kenneth Copeland sermon, or you got to listen to a

Joyce Meyer sermon, which would you choose? You would, would you choose

Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, or would you say Claude you big dummy?

I'd throw my phone away. If that's an option. Yeah. I'd throw my phone away, Claude.

So you got to say it. If, if, if, uh, if you Claude, you big dummy. You big dummy, you big dummy, big dummy.

See what you did. Oh no. You big dummy. See how fun that is.

You know, you can listen to those guys for apologetic purposes though, maybe and use it down the road when you're talking to somebody that listens to that stuff.

I actually do. That's one of the things that I do on the podcast is I, uh, I break the false teaching down and teach what the

Bible says. That is sadly, that's a, you know, reality amongst a lot of folks. There's a lot of, there's a lot of unknown false teachers that are coming up and coming in the world too, that I think it's important for us as pastors to, you know, to keep our, to keep our ear and our eye on to, to make our people aware.

All right. So one more, one more fun question here and when they won't get into the meat of the program, sir.

Okay. So who, two more questions, actually.

Who is your favorite living theologian? Is that a trick question?

That's not a trick question. Living theologian.

I'm looking around at my books, man. Uh, I don't know.

That's a good question. I mean, I know there's a lot of guys, you know, I'm blessed by, uh, I know

I like Beaky. He's got a good systematic right here, by the way. Uh, man, living theologians.

I read a lot of dead theologians and I read a lot of living theologians. Um, I don't know if I have just one that really just grips me.

I think a lot of, a lot of them grip me. Yeah. I would agree with you though about the, uh, the old dead guys.

There's just something about the old day guys that are better than the living guys. Yeah. Yeah. And it, and it depends kind of what genre, what, you know, are we talking like systematic or are we talking, uh, like, uh, biblical theology stuff?

I mean, man, I've got a, I've got a range for all of that probably that I can name.

So systematic, would it be Joel Beaky or who would it be? Systematic living theologian?

You know, that's, that's a hard thing too, because although you could say that book by Beaky is good and I've read good

Beaky books, um, I've also read, uh, you know, there's also, there's a really good book out there on, um, covenant theology called

God to us by Stephen Myers. So, I mean, you know, that, that would be, that would be a good book, but he's not really a systematic guy.

Um, so what about living systematics though? You know, another good one is Robert Raymond. He wrote a good one.

I think it's called a, uh, it's called a new systematic, but you usually news, not a good thing, but in this case it is, he has a, he has a good systematic.

Um, but yeah, those guys wrote, you know, it's hard to find good living systematic. I know frame has frames done some, um, good stuff.

Yeah. So systematic wise. So what about, uh, the old dead guy theologian?

Yeah. Yeah. So my favorite that now that that's all, so that's probably even trickier because there are so many, um,

I like, uh, and then it kind of depends on what, what era. So early church, I like,

I like Augustine. Um, I like right now, I'm actually reading a book by Bernard of Clairvaux.

That's really good on his commentaries on the Psalms or Song of Psalms. Um, and Athanasius, he's a good one.

Uh, you know, Calvin, Calvin's a really good writer to read.

He's an incredible writer, um, and an incredible thinker. So, so he would be up there.

Uh, Knox is, Knox is interesting. He's got some fire in him. Um, I like him.

I like, uh, there's a lot of Puritans. Um, I mean, any of the

Puritans John Owen, I used to, I used, you know, it's funny cause you read a lot of one guy and then you kind of, you kind of get not tired of them, but you move on to someone else.

And so it kind of depends on what season of life I'm at really. Uh, but here's the good one. Here's, I've been reading this right here though.

This is a good one by, um, Patrick Fairbairn. He was a

Presbyterian minister in the 19th century. This is on, um, typology, biblical typology. That's a good book.

Fairbairn is a good author too. Yes. Yeah. He was, he was very good. I agree. Yeah. Um, all right, so let's, let's do this then.

Let's get right, right into it here. Um, let's just start with chapter one and I, and again,

I want to say thank you, uh, Ryan for being on with us. Um, thank you for being willing to take the time, uh, out of your busy schedule and to just, because I feel like that for our audience, for our listeners,

I think it's so good for, uh, for us, like we just talked about, we had that discussion about living theologians, right?

A lot of times we read the old dead guys with no opportunity really to get personal insight.

And so what we have the opportunity to do with you today as a living theologian, and I'm, and I do consider you a theologian, um, to, to talk with you and to get personal insights in, in, into the reasons as to why you wrote the words that you have written and to, uh, and to just really, to talk about your growth in grace, uh, your growth in, in the knowledge of our

Lord and savior, Jesus Christ, as the scriptures teach us that we are called to do. So your book again is called even if none.

See, I have trouble getting a book in the, in the camera frame too. But, but, but this book itself, the title itself, tell us a little bit about why you chose the title, um, even if none.

Does it have a copyright in there? I think back 2019, 2019. Okay. Um, so that means

I was writing it probably in 2018, 2017. So, uh, so it's been a while, but you know, the, the, the context surrounding it is, is, was the, um,

I was, I was doing a lot of open air preaching, a lot of, a lot of ministry kind of out in the wild outside of the church.

And, um, you know, you hear the phrase, even if one a lot, so you're going out and evangelizing, you're telling people about Christ and the, the, the mindset is as well.

Um, you know, as long as one person or even if one person gets saved, it makes everything worth it.

And, um, I started, I started thinking about that phrase and it's not so much that it's not so much nitpicking the phrase as it is, is examining what that phrase conveys.

As far as when we think of evangelism, um, what is, what is, what is the idea of even if one, what does that mean?

Um, and so I started realizing that that phrase is actually, um, it's actually unbiblical because even if none get converted, then because that's what it's saying, you know, it's saying that if none get converted, then, then it was a waste of time and you know, it was pointless trying to go out and talk to people about Christ.

And so the idea there is that even if none get converted, then there's still a reason to go out and do it.

And of course, a lot of this is presupposing our, our belief in the sovereignty of God and our belief in the fact that God is the one that gives the increase.

God is the one that saves. And so that being the case, the results are not in our hands. We have no ability to produce regeneration in somebody.

That's the Holy Spirit's work. Our work is to be faithful. And so that's, that's kind of where the, where the book began, the genesis of it.

And, um, and, and yeah, that's where it is today. It came out. So, I mean, just the, uh, just the blurbs that came out,

Justin Peters wrote a blurb on the book. Uh, Justin Peters said, I really, really loved this book.

Here's both a sobering assessment of modern evangelical methods, as well as a motivating challenge for believers to do evangelism as God has prescribed it to be done.

And, and I want to say this too, Ryan, um, I think there's in, in, this is going to be maybe somewhat of a, uh, a very narrow statement

I'm going to make concerning my personal, uh, perceptions of, of the writing and of the books.

But, uh, Hey, is that your son? Yeah. Yeah. He's hanging out in here. Hi, buddy.

How are you? Good. Uh, but so to, to,

I think that there's been two books, particularly in the past year that I've read and I, and I don't, you know,

I don't get to read a big ton of books, but I try to read five to six books a year if possible.

But I think, uh, I read James White's pulpit crimes, uh, when we were on vacation earlier last year.

And then when I read this, uh, I mean like two pages in, uh, there was just a,

I don't know, there was just a, like a, a camaraderie or a identification with your writing style.

Like James White wrote that he, that book pulpit crimes. I think he wrote 96, uh, but like with your book, because it's so straightforward, it's no nonsense.

You don't, you mean, uh, being scholarly is fantastic. It's good. It's great. It's grand, whatever the case may be.

But this book is just written to the man, the woman, the boy and the girl sitting in the pew and teaching us and showing us the importance of not only evangelism itself, but biblical evangelism.

You, you quoted, uh, I and Murray on page nine, uh, it says I and Murray's description of how the altar call came about, particularly this is important when it comes to evangelism, uh, how the altar call came about.

I and Murray said, nobody at first claimed to regard it as a means of conversion, but very soon and inevitably answering the call to the altar came to be confused with being converted.

People heard preachers plead for them to come forward with the same urgency with which they pleaded for them to repent and believe.

Can you, can you talk to that quote there for just a moment? Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of that is, is, you know, what, what's going on is, um, you know, in our culture, even when it comes to like decisionism and, um, what it, what it means to be converted, what that looks like, what that is.

It's not to say that walking down an aisle is wrong. I mean, I, I, I think, I think it is wrong.

I think it's unbiblical. And I, I think it's, uh, um, you know, in a sense it's, it's, it's excess and it leads to certain superstitious kind of rights and customs, mindsets.

And, and you see that today where, you know, you go out and evangelize and, and, and, or, or even just talk to people who are clearly, um, not

Christians. They're not walking in the faith. They're a lot of them, not even in church. And yet they'll say, oh,

I'm converted because I walked an aisle. Yep. And, um, and so that's, that's, that's trying to address some of that as far as just some of these methodologies that have cropped up into our

Christian culture that, that, um, that are a huge disservice to the souls that are out there.

And then to us, when we go out and evangelize and talk to people about the faith, because man, there's a huge hurdle now that you have to overcome in order to even bring the gospel to that person.

Amen. Amen. I would agree a hundred percent. Um, on page 11, you quoted, uh,

Spurgeon when he, and you said this when it comes to numbering salvific fruit, Spurgeon exhorts.

And this is, this is, and again, let me interject something here. Uh, do you have or from the

Puritan's mind by, by Joel Beakey? I think it's, I think Joel Beakey.

Um, no, I don't have that one. I don't have that one. I know which book you're talking about. Yeah. It's a compilation of Puritan quotes.

Holy cow. Or from the Puritan's mind is a perfect title, but I would say this concerning your book,

I'd say your book is solid gold for quotes as well. Spurgeon said this, don't be in a hurry to count these supposed converts.

Don't take them into the church too soon and don't be too proud of their enthusiasm. If it isn't accompanied with some degree of softening and tenderness to show that the

Holy spirit has really been at work within them. Again, don't number your fish before they are broiled nor count your converts before you've tested and tried them.

This process may make your work somewhat slow, but it will be sure now to the,

I think to the modern here to, to the modern listener, to the modern church goer, that may, that's, that statement may seem very coarse and very, um, uh,

I would say ill mannered, but it is, uh, to me, it's very wise. Why did you choose that, uh, that quote particularly to put in here?

Well, it's because it, it, it, yeah, it, it, it goes to the, see all of the, the problem here is, is people who are obsessing over seeing things over numbers, over results, over something tangible that you can point to and, and, and somehow somehow claim, oh, this, this, this has taken place.

Conversion has taken place. Um, the reality is, is, is, is, uh, although conversion is instantaneous, there's, there's a sense in which, um, whether it's pride, whether it's, you know, there's something regarding numerical success that is driving all of this.

So, um, Spurgeon makes a good point too. There's a quote in, I think it's the first chapter

I'm looking at it. Spurgeon says this, he said that, um, so at first he gave no, well, he never did, but he's, uh, he gave no public appeals at the

Metropolitan Tabernacle and he was against any regular use of inquiry meetings, but he notes how such a change was felt.

So when this altar call thing starts taking place in the late 1800s, he starts noticing that it's affecting the whole, the whole

Christian culture. And he says this, he says, I remember very well, several young men who were of good moral character and religiously promising instead of searching their hearts and aiming at their real conversion, the pastor never gave them any time to think about their spiritual condition.

Instead, he pestered, he pestered them until he persuaded them, not the spirit to make a profession.

And so that's what, that's what's going on here. Um, we should be urgent and we should be, we should be, we should be very insistent on, you know, come to the

Lord today. Don't Terry do it now. But as far as seeing that, as far as, you know, putting a notch on our belt because they do something that, that, what that's doing is we're trying to, we're, we're trying to supplant the work of God in bringing about something that only

God can bring about. You know, our job is to plead with them and to call them and to, to, to, you know, point them to Christ.

Um, but as far as saying, Hey, and this is what you have to do. This is, you know, I need, I need you to do this so I can see it.

Yeah. Well that, that, you know, and again, I think the motive for that nowadays, I think it's, it's for the sake of saying,

Hey, you know, 4 ,000 people were saved at this beach reach or Easter Sunday. You know, we have 900 people coming down, coming forward at the altar call or whatever.

And it's just a way to not your belts, but it's, it's super unbiblical and it's caused a lot of, I mean, we're in a real pro, you know, not so much in the reform world, but in general, the

Christian world man is just in a real mess right now because of this stuff. Amen. I agree.

And particularly you're in the South. So have you always lived in Texas? Uh, more or less.

So I grew up on the East side of New Mexico, which is basically West Texas. And so it's

Bible belt. Okay. That's what I was going to ask. So typically in the Bible belt, there is the, uh,

I think the IFB is probably the most well -known for being, uh, aggressive.

Uh, and when I, and I don't, and I, I guess I do. And I don't at the same time in a backhanded way, uh, we're big on being aggressive soul winners.

Right. And that was, and it was always about the numbers. It was always about saying this person made the decision yet that person, you know, couldn't be found as the country folks say the

FBI couldn't find those folks. Right. But yeah, you know, they couldn't find those folks, but so in, in our area and in, and it's not always the same geographically,

I think, would you agree that it's not, that's not always the, uh, the ideal, uh, picture of evangelism in the

U S as opposed to down South. Oh, it's different up North. It's yeah. It's different up North.

I mean, I think, well, here's the thing that I think everyone is experiencing and this is, this plays into the, into the problem.

And this is why, um, the book, and this is a big reason why I wrote the book too. What do you do whenever the gospel encounters a hard and barren soil, and yet we still want to see results and numbers and we still need to see these, these, uh, these, these aisle walkers and whatever else it is that we're using as a metric to gauge conversion.

Well, whenever we're up against a barren soil, uh, this is not a revival climate right now that we're living in the

United States. Unfortunately we pray for it, but right now it's not. And so what happens when this almost this, this, this, uh, the opposite of a revival culture, it's a hard barren concrete type of soil that we're gospelizing on.

Yeah. Yet, um, if you have the mindset that even though this is the soil yet, we have to see people walk an aisle or come down or make a profession, what's going to happen is you're going to start watering down the gospel big time, because you have to, in order to see what you want to see, you have to make it very easy.

You have to make it very superficial, very shallow. That is American Christianity right there.

That's exactly. And that's what you said in chapter two, moving on there. Evangelism should not be defined in terms of results rather than it should be defined in terms of the activity of setting forth a good news itself.

Yeah. And that goes, that goes to your title. Even if none come that does not make or break the success of the gospel because the gospel is the power.

According to the scripture, the gospel is the power of God into salvation. Right. So it's not affected by, uh, so, so speak to this because I think in, in our circles in the reform circles and I spoke with, uh, my, my brother,

Keith Foskey, uh, conversations with the Calvinists. I don't know if you have you ever, have you watched his podcast? I've seen, uh, is he the guy that makes those videos, the denominational videos?

Yeah, those are funny, but I haven't talked to him. No, he is a solid preacher of the gospel in Jacksonville, right?

So, uh, we were talking about this and I think in, in reform circles, I think we also have a, have a balance to strike, right?

Because we don't want it to be just cold intellectual truth, right? Because the gospel is powerful because, you know, the, the gospel does stir and evoke emotion, but emotion isn't the, what, what we have to, what we have to keep in mind and present to the people,

I think is that emotion isn't, isn't the catalyst that, that determines whether a person is saved or lost, that regeneration is the catalyst that determines whether a person is saved or lost and regeneration in that.

And, and I'll ask this, this wasn't part of our questions. I know we've not really stuck to the program on the questions, but this is a great conversation.

So I think to the idea of, and you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, uh, and I'm not trying to be controversial, but years ago when

MacArthur, you know, basically, you know, got his tire, I'll say his tire slash for, for teaching

Lordship salvation, right. Versus no Lordship salvation, the idea that you can walk and I'll say a prayer, that's no

Lordship salvation that you can walk and I'll say a prayer. And it doesn't matter what happens from there.

You're good. And you're in, but there's no fruit, but the scriptures do teach us completely opposite that, that there will be fruit, but that fruit, it's sanctification is produced at different speeds in different believers.

Would you agree with that? Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And that's, well, that's part of the, that's part of the thing here.

You know, um, there's a section in the book that's called the deceit of external responses.

And so when you're looking at, when you're looking at fruit, when you're looking at, so, yeah, so, so we know that, um, if you, if you know, faith without works is, is no faith, that's not a true faith.

We see that James too. So, uh, and Christ says, you're known by your fruit. There's a lot of, a lot of instances where we are as Christians, we better have some, some fruit, things that are consistent with our profession, as far as our lifestyle goes.

Um, but the problem is, is that, you know, the Pharisees had a lot of moral fruit.

The, uh, today, you know, I've, I've met very strict Muslims who have, you know, moral, they have more moral fruit than most

Christians. Um, so, so if that's what you're going on, you know, there's, there's, there's, the problem is, is, um, external signs are being used not so much as a marker for conversion, but as a marker for evangelism fruit and success.

And so, um, um, yeah, so, so, but I, but, you know, going back to your question in the main is absolutely that, that, that, you know, we're dealing with so many problems right now in the

Christian world. So on the one hand, you got, you have professions that they make a profession for Christ.

They can walk an aisle, be baptized, all the rest, but their life afterwards does not demonstrate their faith in any way whatsoever.

And yet they'll still claim to be Christian. So that, that's the problem on the one hand. The problem on the other hand is that, um, it's almost like the parable of the soils where you have the, the, the soils, the, of course, you have the bad soil where the devil comes and plucks the seed up right away.

But then the other two soil, uh, soils is, is, um, it, it, you know, it's soil where it's shallow.

The seed is, is cast into the soil. The plant comes up right away, but, uh, it withers, it shrivels up.

And Christ says, it's, it's because of persecutions or trials. And they come along and they, they knock this, this plant off.

And so these are things that you can't. So in other words, you go and you see this person, they're very excited at first, they're pumped up, man, they're joy, joyful, everything else.

They walk an aisle and you're like, boom, we got one, you know, we got another one. And you start, you said, well, the problem is, is that, you know, six months down the road, a year down the road, the guy falls away.

Um, and so it's not to say again, it's not to say that external, external, uh, signs or responses are unnecessary or, or are bad in themselves or not, but there has to be other factors involved.

There have to be other factors involved as far as how we evaluate our evangelism success.

That's exactly right. And, and truly, uh, I mean, like what you really got to in your book too, was that it, these are only things that time bears out.

Yeah. That's the thing. And the other thing too, is that's why you cannot make an idol of the fruit that you see when you evangelize, because if you're going off of that, and then the fruit that you thought was good fruit turns out to be bad fruit or happens all the time.

When you think you have no fruit after evangelism, then six months down the road, you get a phone call or an email saying,

Hey, I got converted six months ago, you know, from that interaction six months ago. So it's like, you know, for six months, you're like, man, that was a wasted evangelism effort.

Well, in reality, God was using that to bring about conversion in a person. So that's why that cannot, you know, whether or not someone's converted cannot be our ultimate evaluation for whether or not evangelism is successful.

Amen. Amen. So chapter three, moving right along. So, and I want to say this too.

So your books broke down into three parts, which I love that as well. Right belief, right practice.

And then what was the third one? Right belief, right practice, and then the cost, right?

So orthodoxy, orthopraxy, and then the cost. I really appreciated how you set this in line like you did.

So chapter three, let's talk about why theology is so critical when it comes to communicating the gospel.

Yep. Yep. Everything we've just talked about is all a theological problem. It's amazing. So, so I mentioned a few guys on here.

There's a guy named Donald McGavern and, and another guy

Darius Salter. So McGavern. So both of these guys, when they're, when they're looking at evangelism, they look at it in this sense.

They say, if there is no fruit, if there are no conversions that take place from your evangelism, then it is not technically evangelism at all.

And, and, and, and I have a quote from Salter somewhere, and I think that's in chapter two, but he, he, he basically looks at Luther's definition there.

And in chapter two, I give a bunch of definitions of, of, you know, different people who say different things about what evangelism is and is not.

But Darius Salter basically said, yeah, those guys have made a huge mistake. That's not evangelism. They're not defining it right, the right way.

And, and the same thing. So here's the thing, right? So you go out, you go out, here's, here's

McGavern. He says Christian missions needed a theology that would undergird it during the long years when it was weak at home and a hard beset abroad.

And so he's saying, what he's saying is, so he says that going everywhere and preaching the gospel is not evangelism.

And, and so that's why he says when it comes to, when it comes to defining evangelism as going around and preaching the gospel, he's saying that, that the reason why people want this to be the definition, a good definition for evangelism is, is because they're looking for a rationale for, or justification or an excuse whenever their evangelism doesn't have any fruit.

Right. So they're saying, well, this is kind of like a, it's kind of like a an escape mechanism, you know?

So it's like, Hey, and this is a, this is a real factor that we need to consider. You know, when we start saying that evangelism can't be defined by results, it does not mean that we should not be interested in results or that we don't care about results or that we're not ready for results, you know?

So there, there's a, there, there is something there, but the point is is that because of theology.

So when you're looking at, so McGavern's theology says that man's got to put a little effort, you know, when it comes to salvation, man has to cooperate with God in order to be saved.

They have to cooperate. So it's, it's synergism, you know, God and man together. Whereas what we're saying is the

Bible teaches monergism, that salvation is of the Lord. It's one.

God is the one that works regeneration in a person, which then gives them the desire to have faith, to believe, to go after Christ, to turn from sin, all of that.

And so this conversation is all about theology at the, at the root, at the bottom of it.

That's all this is. And then, and then, you know, you go through here, man, and I have all kinds of scripture, of course.

And here's the thing to think about, and maybe this will help, and I'm sure I'm speaking to the choir, but here's the thing

I know with you, I am Claude, but, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure most of your listeners agree with us, but people, so you hear this a lot, you know, that if, if, if you, if you go out and evangelize and you, you know, you bring the whole council of God, you put the whole council of God out there.

Well, then you're going to push people away. If you talk about sin, if you talk about judgment and hell and all that, you know, that's not the whole message, but if that's what you're talking about, man, you're going to push people away.

And, and Romans eight verse seven says that the people whose minds are set on the flesh are hostile to God.

If they're hostile to God, you know, they're already pushed away. You know, Romans three says they're not seeking

God. And so, you know, ultimately that's why we say, when we go out, in fact, it's a disservice to hide any of the real council of God because that's the means that God brings about in order to convert people is the whole count, the whole gospel, the brain, the gospel to, to those who are out there and God uses that.

And so, but yeah, that's the, this is, this is the linchpin man for, for, for everything. When it comes to evangelism methods out there, you see them and you see them in like the secret friendly churches, you see them in the shock and awe preachers in the open air, you see them.

And I would, you know, and I always catch so much flag for criticizing some of the great comforts, funny money stuff, you know, but, but really,

I mean, that's what you see, right? These are Arminian synergistic methods that are not depending upon the power of God for salvation.

And the means that he's the means that he's told us that he brings it about, which is the, the, the speaking of the gospel, the preaching of the gospel proclamation of Christ.

Amen. Amen. I like the, I like the quote that you put in chapter three from Stephen Charnock.

He's concerning the gospel. It has sometimes conquered its thousands at another time, scarce, it's 10.

Sometimes the harvest has been great when the labors have been, but few at another time, it has been small when the labors have been many, sometimes whole sheaves at, at another time, scarce cleanings.

The evangelical net has been sometimes full at a cast and at every cast.

And at another time, many have labored all night and all day and caught nothing. The gospel chariot does not always, well,

I'm sorry. This thrills my heart. The gospel chariot does not always return with captives chained to the sides of it.

Sometimes blurred and reproached, wearing the marks of hell spot instead of imprinting the marks of its own beauty.

That is such a beautiful statement there and how true it is. But if we get theology, if our theology is not right, if the gospel is not right, then men and women, boys and girls are not truly being saved because they're being saved by false hope by false promise.

So man, that is so good. Let's move on. Well, and two, and this is part of that same chapter, but towards the end there, you know, this is why good theology is so critical when you're evangelizing because in our culture, again,

I keep going back to this. We are living in very barren times right now in the United States.

And so what keeps us going without compromising the gospel is our theology that God is sovereign and that he has his sheep who are going to hear his voice and the means that he uses to bring the sheep in is very simple.

So simple that it's too simple for us. It's the proclamation of the gospel watered by prayer.

Amen. That's it. Amen. Amen. So, I mean, really what we've talked about, we've covered, you know, the theology apologetics of it, the prayer.

Let's go to that. Let's actually go to that because that's the last section of your book.

We're just going to skip right to that because I think a lot of times that, and I'm going to say this because I'm an old preacher now.

I'm an old man now. I'm an old preacher and I can say it. I think a lot of the young preachers are so fixed and so set.

And again, are so connected to theology. They are connected to the letter, but they are not connected to the spirit of God and to the power of God.

And that comes by prayer, by faithfully setting before God men and women and entrusting

God to do with those men and women what he sees fit. Now, in a very real sense,

I'm sorry, but in a very real sense, I think that, again, it's going to seem very hard to some people, but in a very real sense, one of the worst places that we can put our lost people is in the hands of God.

It's scary for them because the scriptures tell us it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living

God. But at the same time, and it's beyond our comprehension to understand this, at the same time, as I think it was

Spurgeon said, the sovereignty of God is the pillow upon which we lay our head at night.

It's trusting that God is sovereign. But prayer is that.

I need to let you explain to us what the importance of prayer is, sir.

Yeah. Well, the thing that comes to mind, as you're saying, and you're saying it beautifully, it tenderizes us, man.

Prayer keeps us tender, I think. It tenderizes us when it comes to God.

It makes us more sensitive to God, to the reality of God. And I think that's the main thing, that it just reminds us of the reality of the supernatural, of the spiritual realm, that this is not a carnal thing.

This is not a flesh and blood thing. There is a spiritual dynamic that's taking place, not just when we're evangelizing, but in all of reality.

And then, of course, evangelism fits in with that. But also it tenderizes us towards the people that we're evangelizing.

And this is something that is so critical, especially if you're in a, you know, all ministry is difficult.

But especially when you're intentionally engaging lost people on a regular basis, or even like on an afternoon once a month, man, it is difficult to love those people and to have compassion for them and to realize that apart from God's grace, there go

I. So that's what prayer does as far as evangelism goes. It tenderizes us towards them.

It makes us more sensitive to the reality of the supernatural, that these things are real, man, that God is, you know.

And I know we all say, oh, God is real. I get that. We say that. But prayer gives us entrance into that, access to that.

It helps us to have that as a reality in a subjective way, experiential way, that this is a real thing.

And so I'm looking through here some of the things that I was writing. And here's the other thing, too.

Look in the scriptures where all the different, and this is pointed out by a guy named

George Robertson. He says the Bible never commands or even describes believers praying for people to be converted.

I'm not saying that's bad. But he says rather they pray for more laborers, open doors, boldness.

Paul specifically, so Paul is asking for people to pray for him. But the thing is, this is what,

I mean, here's the thing. Here's what J .F. Hacker says, pray for those whom we seek to win, that the Holy Spirit will open the hearts and should pray for ourselves and our own witness.

John Owen says about praying, he says about the lost, our duty is to pray that God would pour forth his spirit even on them also, who will quickly cause them to look on him whom they have pierced and mourned.

I mean, think of the audacity. And, you know, this is to our shame, I think. But think of the audacity of going out, evangelizing, and then not praying about it, you know, not praying for the work, not praying for the people to be converted.

And it's not to say that, you know, salvation, salvation is of the

Lord. But at the same time, we are told to ask and seek and knock, and all these admonitions,

Paul is over here saying, hey, pray for us here, pray for us there. And to your point, Claude, I think this is usually put on the back burner, and not just in our evangelism, but in our daily lives.

And it's to our discredit. And I, you know, I mean, this is something that is, that's why

I like reading like Bernard de Clairvaux, some of these, I mean, one of Calvin's favorite writers, by the way, and you read it, and man, this guy's like a, there's some mystical stuff going on in there.

But it's refreshing because it's the opposite of what we have in our culture today, I think, which is, you know, it's just, it's so heady.

It's so doctrinal that you lose the other side of it. And of course, the two go together, but, you know, we don't, you know,

I mean, how many conferences are done on prayer, you know?

When's the last conference that you've heard, or I've heard, that is about prayer? We're going to have a conference about prayer.

You know, no, it's like, hey, we're going to have a conference about, you know, the doctrine of this, the doctrine of that, the doctrine of that.

Well, you know, and I always think like these prayer meetings, or these conferences, you know, if all these guys for like one year, we say, hey, we're not going to have a conference this year.

Those three or four days that usually come to this conference, stay at home and intentionally like get in the closet, get together and just pray.

For three or four days, stay home and just pray. Don't come over here. Don't come watch this. Don't come.

Just stay home and pray. Watch the power of God move on that. Amen. Amen. Well, I think that's a great place for us to leave off, brother.

Again, I want to thank you for being on. I appreciate. I appreciate the truth that you shared in your book and the truth that you shared with us tonight for the time that you've given.

I know we didn't get to, I mean, we covered it in a roundabout way, but before we close, tell us what are some of the other books that you've written in your most recent book, particularly.

Very quickly, give us a rundown and summary of the other books so our folks can get those. Yeah. So there's a almost like an abridged version of, even if none, that RHB sells

Reform No Reformation Heritage Books called Ten Modern Myths.

Is that right? Ten Evangelism Myths or something. I'm sorry.

It's been a long time. These books, you know, in God's grace, I mean, these are kind of like this.

I would love to just write, but I don't. You know, I mean, there's a lot going on besides just the books.

And so I think it's called Ten Modern Evangelism Myths, I think, something like that.

But anyways, it's somewhat of an abridged version of, even if none.

And it was written to, I mean, all my books I try to write to everybody with the exception of there's a book

I wrote. Actually, my first book that I wrote, I co -wrote with a guy named Scott Smith. And it's a book about open air preaching.

It's called A Certain Sound, A Primer on Open Air Preaching. And that's also at Reformation Heritage Books, RHB.

And then, even if none. And then I wrote a book called

Augustine the Evangelist. That's the most recent book. So that came out last year.

Might have been a year and a half ago now. But that's about the methodology of Augustine of Hippo, his approach when it comes to evangelism.

And then I wrote a book called The Reformed Evangelist with Al Baker. And I'm working on a book about church planning that I'm working out.

But it needs a lot of work. And you're the first person outside my family

I think I've shared that with. Well, praise the Lord. I look forward to that. Yeah, yeah. I'm definitely getting it.

Amidst the busyness, if you remember me or think of me, when that gets out, shoot me a letter and say, get it now.

Yeah, yeah. With all these things, it's God's grace. And the other thing, too, is when

I started into ministry, it's funny because I was like, man, I'm not going to write any. There's so many good books out there already.

And there are. I'm not going to waste any time writing books. But the reason why I'm writing the books that I'm writing is because I do feel like there's a niche and there's a void in this area when it comes to,

I mean, books that are specifically reformed when it comes to evangelism are very hard to find.

It's hard. So every book I write is unapologetically from a reform perspective.

And it usually deals with something like evangelism or church planning or open air preaching, things that you're not going to find

Puritans writing too much about or anything like that. So, but I always do say, man, read other, read the

Puritan, read these guys behind me before you read my books and definitely be living in the

Bible like Spurgeon says. Well, Ron, you are, you are definitely one of my, one of my favorite living theologians.

I'll tell you that. Man, would you care to close us out by sharing the gospel, sir?

Yeah. Yeah. So the gospel, I always like to start with, with God, with who God is.

I took that from, from, from Francis Schaeffer years ago. He said, if you, you know, when you're talking to people about, about the gospel, the best place to start is with God, especially in our culture because if you start there and creation,

Schaeffer's big deal was starting with creation. So God is creator because that, that puts

God in a situation where it presents God in a situation where he is the standard.

He is the King. He is the Lord. He's the law giver that everything, that everything that we, that, you know, the place we live in, what we do, everything has to be done in light of who

God is. And so when you're talking about God, when you're bringing out his attributes, that he's holy, that he's righteous, that he's just, that he's the judge of all the universe that must judge rightly.

You can't bribe him. You can't, you can't, you know, you can't do anything to twist his arm. He's a good judge.

And so that, that's, that's, if you begin there, everything flows from that.

And so from there, God creates man. Look at us today, you know, so, so Adam, of course was, was perfect.

He was without sin in the garden, he sins. And then ever since then, every person who's ever born is born in sin, born in iniquity.

And we see that demonstrated. If you have children, you see it right away. But, but just, just looking at the reality of, of our own hearts and realizing that our hearts, like Calvin says is a factory for idols.

And so like the scripture say, even our righteous deeds are like filthy garments.

Even the best thing that we do is always tainted by selfishness or pride or, or something tainted by self.

And so in sin, our mothers conceive us and we continue to sin all day long, all night long.

And so the problem of course is, well, if God is good, he's a good judge. He's a, he's a good lawgiver, a righteous lawgiver.

He holds people accountable for their sin. That's all we've ever done. Well, how are we going to be right with God?

And that's called the great dilemma. You know, if God is righteous and just, and we are sinful, how then can simple man be right with God without God compromising in who he is?

And so God himself takes on flesh. God comes motivated by love in this is love.

Not that we love God, but that God loved us for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. So, so God takes on flesh.

God is the one who does something about the problem, the dilemma that we're in contrast to all the other religions out there in the universe, which says you have to do something about the dilemma.

Christianity says, no, God does something about the dilemma. Christ comes to earth in the form of a man, lives a perfect life.

He's obedient. Every thought, word, deed, loves his neighbor as himself, loves God with, with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength goes to the cross.

And then on the cross, when he cries out, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And Gethsemane, when he's talking about the cup, he's, he's talking about God, the father crushing the son on behalf of those whom the son came to save.

And so the only way that we are right with God is because Christ paid the penalty.

Christ satisfied the justice of God. Christ is the one that took the wrath that we deserve. He drank the cup of hell so that we will never taste or experience hell.

There is no condemnation now because Christ was condemned. And then, of course, the best part, the part that they always talk about in the book of Acts, this is, by the way, something

I think we, we, we, we under, undervalue or under talk about, but the resurrection three days later,

Christ is raised from the dead. That's the first fruits. You know, we look at that and we say, you know, this is, this is, this is what's promised for all those who are in Christ.

It's also a validation of what Christ was teaching of his person. We know that the wages of sin is death.

And so Christ being raised from the dead demonstrates that, that the penalty for sin has been paid for, has been taken care of by Christ.

And then also important, of course, is repenting of our sin and putting our faith in Christ, coming to Christ on his terms.

And that, of course, is going to, that implies that our life now is one that is in Christ.

And, and we live in light of the, the, the work of Christ and the promise that we have in the gospel.

But that's, of course, our, our, our works are not dependent upon our salvation, but they flow from it.

So, but they all go together. You know, if you don't, you don't have that, you don't have that, those works, like we talked about that lifestyle, if you're not willing to count the costs and take up your cross and suffer and all those things, then, you know, it's, it would be, it would be good to ask yourself if you are in the faith and, and seek the