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On this episode join us as we interview with Ryan Denton and get The Authors Insights into his book "Even If None"-Reclaiming Biblical Evangelism
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By scripturing reasons and not by popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves.
Well welcome, brother. Welcome to the Here I Stand Theology Podcast.
Good to be on here, man. It's been a long time. So yeah, I'm grateful to be here.
Like I said, we have been expectantly waiting for this opportunity to have you on today and to get you to give us the author's insight on your book, Even If None. In case anybody needs a better view of that, let's just put it up there.
Even If None, Reclaiming Biblical Evangelism. That's what we're going to be talking about today. So I asked Ryan to send us three of his favorite memes. We'll just start with this because this is the easy part.
The memes are always the easy and the fun part. So let's bring in Ryan's first meme that he sent to me as his favorite meme and let's hear why Ryan chose this meme. Caesar is now a salad dressing. Jesus is still the king.
Tell us about that,.
Ryan. That's right. Well, it's just ironic because if you go back 2 ,000 years ago, Caesar is the power and he's the force, the heyday. He's the man and little does he know or anyone really else in the Roman Empire, little do they know that within 300, 400 years, Rome is going to be impotent and eventually wiped out and Christ and his kingdom is going to be more and more prominent.
And so the irony of course today is that you look around and you don't hear anyone really talking about Caesar anymore, except in the salad dressing. But Christ, he's got his stamp on everything.
Still king of kings and still little lords. That's right. Amen. Amen. All right. So let's jump to the next one here real quick. Let me try to master my mouse skills here. This one is always a classic one.
This is always fantastic. This is always pleasant to see. So we have St. Nick punching Arius, correct?
That's correct. That's right. That's right. That is correct. And this of course is humorous, but I think there's an element to it that I feel like we have lost in our culture as far as our regard for doctrine and theology.
We don't really, and I'm speaking generally, we don't really see the need for taking it that seriously. And clearly that was not the case with St. Nick over here when it came to Arius. And of course it went both ways, Arius and the Arians.
They were very serious about their theology as well. And as we'll see with maybe a little bit today, if we get into it, but Augustine and those guys, you know, so of course Luther, I mean all these guys, there's a reason why they were willing to risk their life and die for their faith and for the things they believed in.
And I think it's good for us to reflect on that and ask ourselves, is that the culture, Christian culture that we live in? And if not, why not?
Right. And actually, after we get through your last meme here, I've got one for us to look at, which refers to exactly what you're saying there. So sometimes people just need to be busted in the mouth.
Of course, in Christian love, we mean that in the best way. So this meme I thought was a very good kind of a lead in from that or to follow from that. So if you had to pick one as your pastor, one is your professor, one is your best friend and one you have to fist fight, who would you choose as your pastor from this list?
John Calvin. No doubt about it. All right. How about your professor? I would say probably Bob Inc.
OK, third, what about your best friend?
Yeah, so I think Augustin, if you read Augustin, man, he was a good friend. He was a good friend. I think Augustin, you know, that's a hard choice. There's a lot of good guys out there. Yeah, Augustin.
And last of all, who would you bust in the mouth?
Man, I was, you know, I've been eyeballing Finney, but Finney, if you look at Finney, Finney is it looks like a dude you don't want to mess with. I thought that, too. Yeah. So I might take. You know, Arminius, Arminius, I think looks like like a guy that that that would be right.
And then, of course. Cervetus is a little too old. I don't I feel like that would be in the picture. So I don't I don't he would probably still get me.
That's hilarious that you make that connection, because that's exactly some of the things that I thought about their age. I thought I wouldn't hit a person that old. But Finney does look mean. Finney looks like.
Yeah, he's crazy, man.
Finney looks like. Yeah. But I would love, you know, theologically, he's he's he's definitely a nemesis. But I can't touch this.
All right. So let's bring up this your last meme here real quick. And this one's for you, Clyde. You're going to like this one. Ah, so let's see what's happening here with this one. Like I don't already know, but so here we go.
So break this down for me.
Well, you know, so it's just it's a it's a running joke, man, I was I was a second London Baptist confession of faith guy, you know, three or four years ago. So I now now I'm now I'm a Presbyterian and and the banter goes both ways.
You know how it is. So but the thing is, is this is this is a funny thing. It's the 1689ers, you know, plagiarizing the Westminster. But of course, historically, there's a reason why they did that. They wanted to express their unity between the their their belief in reformed theology, covenant theology, and that it was in line and consistent with with most of the Westminster confession.
And so that's why there was that overlap. But it's it's it's a great meme, though. It is funny. Amen.
It is very funny. But I'll tell you something that I found just recently, just this past week. I was so thankful for it. Founders put out clips of some of the Q &A from the founders conference. I don't know if you've seen it yet, but check this out.
See, when you know, Presbyterians are just reformed Baptists who can read. Can't touch this. Why are you standing there? Can't touch this. Can't touch this. That's pretty good. That's the first thing that I thought of when I saw that meme.
Yeah, that's funny.
Well, you know, it is nice, though, because, you know, reformed Baptists and Presbyterians are they. I know when I was reformed Baptist, I'd rather yoke with the Presbyterian than than a non reformed Baptist any day of the week.
So there's always been some good, good, good banter and good brotherly interaction between the two, I think. Amen. Amen.
All right. So now we're coming to the part of the program where we are going and you are only Ron, you are the second person, you are only the second guest who has ever played this game that we're about to play.
That's great. So you're still fresh in this. Yeah. We are about to do is we are about to play a game called.
You big dummy, you big, big dummy, big dummy. See what you did. Oh, no. You big dummy.
The younger crowd isn't going to know who in the world that was. So do you know who that was? I don't. Oh, how old are you? Thirty seven. Oh, man. I should know, right? Maybe. Well, I'm forty nine. So so Fred Sanford, have you ever heard of Sanford?
And so ever. Oh, Sam Sanford and son.
Oh, I've heard of that. Yeah. I don't know who that is, though.
So that was a that was an early sitcom from from like the either the 70s or the 80s. Yeah, it's pretty old. But but obviously you heard what he was saying. He was saying you big. Yeah, I definitely heard that part.
I read it, too. And that was typically his response to his son Lamont when his son Lamont would do something foolish or silly or anybody that said something dumb. He would say, you big dummy. So this game goes like this.
Basically, I'm going to ask you some questions. They may seem simple. And they may seem foolish, they may seem simple and foolish at the same time, a couple of we're not going to waste a lot of time on them, but but some questions are just unanswerable, like, for example, if you were to punch yourself and it hurts, does that make you weak or strong?
Right. Good question. Right. So a couple of other just unanswerable. That make you a big dummy. That's right. That's exactly right. That would make you a big dummy. So what? Let's let's see just a couple of other questions here.
If a vampire bites a zombie, does a zombie become a vampire or does a vampire become a zombie? Who knows? Right. Some questions are just unanswerable. Is the word Q just the letter Q with four silent letters after it?
I know this is all dad joke stuff, but so here's the question. First question, if there is a correct answer, you should give the correct answer. If there's a wrong answer, hit the button. Pretend like you have a button and we'll play you big dummy.
OK, so the first question is pretty straightforward. If you had the choice. To listen all day long to a Kenneth Copeland sermon. Or you got to listen. To a Joyce Meyer sermon. Which would you choose? Hmm.
You would you choose Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, or would you say, Claude, you big dummy, I'd throw my phone away.
If that's an option. Yeah, I'd throw my phone away, Claude. So you got to say it. If if if if you Claude, you big dummy.
See how fun that is. But, you know, you can listen to those guys for apologetic purposes, though, maybe and use it down the road when you're talking to somebody that listens to that stuff.
I actually do. That's one of the things that I do on the podcast is I break the false teaching down and teach what the Bible says. Yeah, that is sadly, that's a reality amongst a lot of folks. There's a lot of there's a lot of unknown false teachers that are coming up and coming in the world, too, that I think it's important for us as pastors to, you know, to keep our to keep our ear and our eye on to to make our people aware.
All right. So one more one more fun question here. And when they won't get into the meat of the program, sir. OK, you're good. So who two more questions, actually, who is your favorite living theologian?
Is that a trick question?
That's not a trick question. Hmm. Living theologian. I'm looking around at my books, man. I don't know. That's a good question. I mean, I know there's a lot of guys, you know, I'm blessed by. I know I like Beaky.
He's got a good systematic right here, by the way. Man, living theologians, I read a lot of dead theologians and I read a lot of living theologians. I don't know if I have just one that really just grips me.
I think a lot of a lot of grit me.
I would agree with you, though, about the the old dead guys, there's just something about the old dead guys that are better than the living guys.
Yeah. Yeah. And it depends kind of what genre, what are we talking like systematic? Are we talking like biblical theology stuff? I mean, man, I've got a I've got a range for all of that, probably that I can name.
So it's a question, though. So systematic, would it be Joel Beaky or who would it be systematically being.
Theologian? You know, that's that's a hard thing, too, because although you could say that book by Beaky is good and I've read good Beaky books, I've also read, you know, there's also there's a really good book out there on covenant theology called God to us by Stephen Myers.
So, I mean, you know, that that would be that would be a good book, but he's not really a systematic guy. So what about living systematics, though? You know, another good one is Robert Raymond. He wrote a good one.
I think it's called a it's called a new systematic, but usually new is not a good thing. But in this case, it is. He has he has a good systematic. But yeah, those guys wrote, you know, it's hard to find good living systematic.
I know frame has frames done some good stuff. Yeah. So systematic wise.
So what about the old dead guy theologian?
Yeah. Yeah. So my favorite that now that that's so that's probably even trickier because there are so many I like. And then it kind of depends on what what era. So early church. I like I like Augustine.
I like right now I'm actually reading a book by Bernard of Clairvaux that's really good on his commentaries on the Psalms or Song of Psalms and Athanasius. He's a good one. You know, Calvin Calvin's a really good writer to read.
He's an incredible writer and an incredible thinker. So so he would be up there. Knox is Knox is interesting. He's got some fire in him. I like him. I like there's a lot of Puritans. I mean, any of the Puritans, John Owen, I used to I used you know, it's funny because you read a lot of one guy and then you kind of you kind of get not tired of him, but you move on to someone else.
And so it kind of depends on what season of life I'm in, really. But here's the good one. Here's I've been reading this right here, though. This is a good one by. Patrick Fairbairn, he was a Presbyterian minister in the 19th century, this is on.
Typology, biblical typology, that's a good book, Fairbairn's a good author, too. Yes. Yeah, he was. He was very good. I agree. Yeah. All right. So let's let's do this then. Let's get right right into it here.
Let's just start with chapter one. And I and again, I want to say thank you, Ryan, for being on with us. Thank you. Thank you for being willing to take the time out of your busy schedule and to just because I feel like that for our audience, for our listeners, I think it's so good for for us.
Like we just talked about, we had that discussion about living theologians. Right. A lot of times we read the old dead guys with no opportunity really to get personal insight. And so what we have the opportunity to do with you today as a living theologian, and I and I do consider you a theologian to to talk with you and to get personal insights in into the reasons as to why you wrote the words that you have written and to and to just really to talk about your growth in grace, your growth in in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as the scriptures teach us that we are called to do.
So your book, again, is called Even If None. See, I have trouble getting a book in the camera frame, too. But but this book itself, the title itself, tell us a little bit about why you chose the title Even If None.
Does it have a copyright in there?
I think back to 2019, 2019.
OK, so that means I was writing it probably in 2018, 2017. So so it's been a while. But, you know, the the the context surrounding it is is was the I was I was doing a lot of open air preaching, a lot of a lot of ministry kind of out in the wild, outside of the church.
And, you know, you hear the phrase even if one a lot. So you're going out and evangelizing. You're telling people about Christ and the mindset is as well, you know, as long as one person or even if one person gets saved, it makes everything worth it.
And I started I started thinking about that phrase. And it's not so much that it's not so much nitpicking the phrase as it is, is examining what that phrase conveys as far as when we think of evangelism.
What is what is what is the idea of even if one what does that mean? And so. I started realizing that that phrase is actually it's actually unbiblical, because even if none get converted, then because that's what it's saying, you know, it's saying that if none get converted, then then it was a waste of time.
And, you know, it was pointless trying to go out and talk to people about Christ. And so the idea there is that even if none get converted, then there's still a reason to go out and do it. And of course, a lot of this is presupposing our our belief in the sovereignty of God and our belief in the fact that God is the one that gives the increase.
God is the one that saves. And so that being the case, the results are not in our hands. We have no ability to produce regeneration in somebody. That's the Holy Spirit's work. Our work is to be faithful.
And so that's that's kind of where the where the book began, the genesis of it. And and yeah, that's where it is today.
Came out. Yeah. So, I mean, just the just the blurbs that came out, Justin Peters wrote a blurb on the book. Justin Peters said, I really, really loved this book. Here's both a sobering assessment of modern evangelical methods, as well as a motivating challenge for believers to do evangelism as God has prescribed it to be done.
And I want to say this, too, Ron, I think there's in this is going to be maybe somewhat of a very narrow statement I'm going to make concerning my personal perceptions of the writing and of the books.
But hey, is that your son?
Yeah. Yeah, he's hanging out in here.
Hi, James. Hi, buddy. How are you? Good. But to to I think that there's been two books, particularly in the past year that I've read and I and I don't you know, I don't get to read a big ton of books, but I try to read five to six books a year if possible.
But I think I read James White's Pulpit Crimes when we were on vacation earlier last year. And then when I read this, I mean, like two pages in, there was just a I don't know, there was just a like a camaraderie or a identification with your writing style.
Like James White wrote that book Pulpit Crimes. I think he wrote ninety six. But like with your book, because it's so straightforward, it's no nonsense. You don't I mean, being scholarly is fantastic.
It's good. It's great. It's grand. Whatever the case may be. But this book is just written to the man, the woman, the boy and the girl sitting in the pew and teaching us and showing us the importance of not only evangelism itself, but biblical evangelism.
Yeah. You quoted Iain Murray on page nine. It says Iain Murray's description of how the altar call came about. Particularly this is important when it comes to evangelism, how the altar call came about.
Iain Murray said nobody at first claimed to regard it as a means of conversion. But very soon and inevitably answering the call to the altar came to be confused with being converted. People heard preachers plead for them to come forward with the same urgency with which they pleaded for them to repent and believe.
Can you can you talk to that quote there for just a moment?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of that is, you know, what's going on is, you know, in our culture, even when it comes to like decisionism and what it what it means to be converted, what that looks like, what that is.
It's not to say that walking down an aisle is wrong. I mean, I think I think it is wrong. I think it's unbiblical. And I think it's, you know, in a sense, it's it's it's excess and it leads to certain superstitious kind of rights and customs, mindsets.
And you see that today where, you know, you go out and evangelize and and and or even just talk to people who are clearly not Christians. They're not walking in the faith. They're a lot of them not even in church.
And yet they'll say, oh, I'm converted because I walked an aisle. Yeah. And so that's that's that's trying to address some of that as far as just some of these methodologies that have cropped up into our Christian culture, that that that are a huge disservice to the souls that are out there.
And then to us, when we go out and evangelize and talk to people about the faith, because, man, there's a huge hurdle now that you have to overcome in order to even bring the gospel to that person. Amen.
Amen.
I would agree 100 percent. On page 11, you quoted Spurgeon when he and you said this when it comes to numbering salvific fruit, Spurgeon exhorts. And this is this is it again. Let me interject something here.
Do you have or from the Puritans mind? But by Joel Beakey, I think it's I think Joel. No, I don't have that one. I know what book you're talking about. Yeah, it's a compilation of Puritan quotes. Holy cow.
Or from the Puritans mind is a perfect title. But I would say this concerning your book, I'd say your book is solid gold for quotes as well. It's got a lot of Spurgeon said this. Don't be in a hurry to count these supposed converts.
Don't take them into the church too soon. And don't be too proud of their enthusiasm. If it isn't accompanied with some degree of softening and tenderness to show that the Holy Spirit has really been at work within them.
Again, don't number your fish before they are broiled, nor count your converts before you've tested and tried them. This process may make your work somewhat slow, but it will be sure now to the I think to the modern hearer, to to the modern listener, to the modern churchgoer.
That may that's that statement may seem very coarse and very, I would say, ill mannered. But it is to me, it's very wise. Why did you choose that that quote particularly to put in here?
Well, it's because it yeah, it it it goes to the see all of the problem here is is people who are obsessing over seeing things over numbers, over results, over something tangible that you can point to and and and somehow somehow claim, oh, this this this has taken place.
Conversion has taken place. The reality is, is is is although conversion is instantaneous, there's there's a sense in which whether it's pride, whether it's, you know, there's something regarding numerical success that is driving all of this.
So Spurgeon makes a good point, too. There's a quote in I think it's the first chapter. I'm looking at it. Spurgeon says this. He said that. So at first he gave no well, he never did, but he gave no public appeals at the Metropolitan Tabernacle and he was against any regular use of inquiry meetings.
But he notes how such a change was felt. So when this altar call thing starts taking place in the late eighteen hundreds, he starts noticing that it's affecting the whole the whole Christian culture. And he says this.
He says, I remember very well several young men who were of good moral character and religiously promising instead of searching their hearts and aiming at their real conversion. The pastor never gave them any time to think about their spiritual condition.
Instead, he pestered, he pestered them until he persuaded them, not the spirit to make a profession. And so that's what that's what's going on here. We should be urgent and we should be we should be we should be very insistent on, you know, come to the Lord today.
Don't, Terry, do it now. But as far as seeing that, as far as, you know, putting a notch on our belt because they do something that that what that's doing is we're trying to we're we're trying to supplant the work of God in bringing about something that only God can bring about.
You know, our job is to plead with them and to call them and to, you know, point them to Christ. But as far as saying, hey, and this is what you have to do, this is, you know, I need I need you to do this so I can see it.
Yeah, well, that that, you know, and again, I think the motive for that nowadays, I think it's it's for the sake of saying, hey, you know, four thousand people were saved at this beach reach or Easter Sunday.
You know, we have nine hundred people coming down, coming forward at the altar call or whatever. And it's just a way to notch our belts. But it's super unbiblical. And it's caused a lot of I mean, we're in a real you know, not so much in the reform world, but in general, the Christian world, man, is just a real mess right now because of this stuff.
I agree. And particularly you're in the South. So have you always lived in Texas?
More or less. So I grew up on the east side of New Mexico, which is basically West Texas. And so is Bible Belt.
OK, that's what I was going to ask. So typically in the Bible Belt, there is the I think the IFB is probably the most well known for being aggressive. And when I and I don't and I guess I do and I don't at the same time in a backhanded way, we're big on being aggressive.
So winners. Right. And that was and it was always about the numbers. It was always about saying this person made the decision. Yet that person, you know, couldn't be found as the country folks say the FBI couldn't find those folks.
Right. But yeah, you know, they couldn't find those folks. But so in our area and it's not always the same geographically, I think, would you agree that it's not that's not always the the ideal picture of evangelism in the U .S. as opposed to down south?
It's different up north. Yes, it's different up north. I mean, I think, well, here's the thing that I think everyone is experiencing. And this is this plays into the into the problem. And this is why the book and this is a big reason why I wrote the book, too.
What do you do whenever the gospel encounters a hard and barren soil? And yet we still want to see results and numbers and we still need to see these these these these aisle walkers and whatever else it is that we're using as a metric to gauge conversion.
Well, whenever we're up against a barren soil, this is not a revival climate right now that we're living in the United States. Unfortunately, we pray for it. But right now it's not. And so what happens when this almost this this this the opposite of a revival culture, it's a hard, barren, concrete type of soil that we're gospelizing on.
Yeah. Yet if you have the mindset that even though this is the soil, yet we have to see people walk an aisle or come down or make a profession. What's going to happen is you're going to start watering down the gospel big time because you have to in order to see what you want to see.
You have to make it very easy. You have to make it very superficial, very shallow. That is American Christianity right there.
That's exactly. And that's what you said in chapter two. Moving on there. Evangelism should not be defined in terms of results rather than it should be defined in the terms of the activity of setting forth the good news itself.
Yeah. So and that goes that goes to your title. Even if none come, that does not make or break the success of the gospel because the gospel is the power. According to the scripture, the gospel is the power of God into salvation.
Right. So it's not affected by. So so speak to this, because I think in in our circles, in the reformed circles, and I spoke with my brother, Keith Foskey, conversations with the Calvinists. I don't know.
Have you ever have you watched his podcast? I've seen. Is he the guy that makes those videos, the denominational videos? Yeah, those are funny. But I haven't talked to him. No. He is a solid preacher of the gospel in Jacksonville.
Right. So we were talking about this. And I think in in reformed circles, I think we also have a have a balance to strike. Right. Because we don't want it to be just cold intellectual truth. Right. Because the gospel is powerful because, you know, the gospel does stir and evoke emotion.
But emotion isn't what we have to what we have to keep in mind and present to the people, I think, is that emotion isn't isn't the catalyst that that determines whether a person is saved or lost, that regeneration is the catalyst that determines whether a person is saved or lost and regeneration in that.
And I'll ask this. This wasn't part of our questions. I know we've not really stuck to the program on the questions, but this is a great conversation. So I think to the idea of and you don't have to answer this if you don't want to.
And I'm not trying to be controversial, but years ago when MacArthur, you for for teaching lordship salvation, right, versus no lordship salvation, the idea that you can walk and I'll say a prayer. That's no lordship salvation that you walk and I'll say a prayer.
And it doesn't matter what happens from there. You're good and you're in, but there's no fruit. But the scriptures do teach us completely opposite that, that there will be fruit, but that fruit, it's sanctification is produced at different speeds in different believers.
Would you agree with that?
Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And that's well, that's part of the that's part of the thing here. You know, there's a section in the book that's called the deceit of external responses. And so when you're looking at when you're looking at fruit, when you're looking at.
So, yeah. So so we know that if you, you know, faith without works is is no faith. That's not a true faith. We see that, James, too. So and Christ says you're known by your fruit. There's a lot of lot of instances where we are as Christians, we better have some some fruit, things that are consistent with our profession as far as our lifestyle goes.
But the problem is, is that, you know, the Pharisees had a lot of moral fruit. The today, you know, I've met very strict Muslims who have, you know, moral. They have more moral fruit than most Christians.
So so if that's what you're going on, you know, there's there's there's the problem is, is external signs are being used not so much as a marker for conversion, but as a marker for evangelism, fruit and success.
And so, yeah, so so but I but, you know, going back to your question in the main is absolutely that that that, you know, we're dealing with so many problems right now in the Christian world. So on the one hand, you got you have professions that they make a profession for Christ.
They can walk and I'll be baptized, all the rest. But their life afterwards does not demonstrate their faith in any way whatsoever. And yet they'll still claim to be Christian. So that that's the problem.
On the one hand, the problem, on the other hand, is that it's almost like the parable of the soils where you have the soils, the of course you have the bad soil where the devil comes and plucks the seed up right away.
But then the other two soil soils is it, you know, soil where it's shallow, the seed is cast into the soil, the plant comes up right away, but it withers, it shrivels up. And Christ says it's because of persecutions or trials.
And they come along and they knock this this plant off. And so these are things that you can't. So in other words, you go and you see this person. They're very excited at first. They're they're pumped up, man.
They're joy, joyful. Everything else, they walk an aisle and you're like, boom, we got one, you know, we got another one. And you start you said, well, the problem is, is that, you know, six months down the road, a year down the road, the guy falls away.
And so it's not to say again, it's not to say that external external signs or responses are unnecessary or or are bad in themselves. They're not. But there has to be other factors involved. There have to be other factors involved as far as how we evaluate our evangelism.
Success. That's exactly right. And truly, I mean, like what you really got to in your book, too, was that if these are only things that time bears out.
Yeah, that's the. Yeah. And the other thing, too, is that's why you cannot make an idol of the fruit that you see when you evangelize, because if you're going off of that and then the fruit that you thought was good fruit turns out to be bad fruit or happens all the time when you think you have no fruit after evangelism, the six months down the road, you get a phone call or an email saying, hey, I got converted six months ago, you know, from that interaction six months ago.
So it's like, you know, for six months, you're like, man, that was a wasted evangelism effort. Well, in reality, God was using that to bring about conversion in a person. So that's why that cannot you know, whether or not someone's converted cannot be our ultimate evaluation for whether or not evangelism is successful.
Amen. So chapter three, moving right along. So and I want to say this, too. So your books broke down into three parts, which I love that as well. Right belief, right practice. And then what was the third one?
Right belief, right practice, and then the cost, right. So orthodoxy, orthopraxy, and then the cost. I really appreciated how you how you set that set this in line like you did. So chapter three, let's talk about why theology is so critical when it comes to communicating the gospel.
Yeah. Yeah. Everything we've just talked about is all a theological problem. It's amazing. So so I mentioned a few guys on here. There's a guy named Donald McGavern and and another guy, Darius Salter.
So McGavern, so both of these guys, when they're when they're looking at evangelism, they look at it in this sense. They say, if there is no fruit, if there are no conversions that take place from your evangelism, then it is not technically evangelism at all.
And and and I have a quote from Salter somewhere, and I think that's in chapter two, but he he he basically looks at Luther's definition there. And in chapter two, I give a bunch of definitions of, you know, different people who say different things about what evangelism is and is not.
But Darius Salter basically said, yeah, those guys have made a huge mistake. That's not evangelism. They're not defining it right the right way. And the same thing. So here's the thing. Right. So you go out, you go out.
Here's here's McGavern. He says Christian missions needed a theology that would undergird it during the long years when it was weak at home and a hard beset abroad. And so he's saying what he's saying is.
So he says that going everywhere and preaching the gospel is not evangelism. And and so. That's why he says when it comes to when it comes to defining evangelism as going around and preaching the gospel, he's saying that that the reason why people want this to be the definition, a good definition for evangelism is is because they're looking for a rationale.
For or justification or an excuse whenever their evangelism doesn't have any fruit. Right. So they're saying, well, this is kind of like it's kind of like a an escape mechanism, you know, so it's like, hey, and this is a this is a real factor that we need to consider.
You know, when we start saying that evangelism can't be defined by results, it does not mean that we should not be interested in results or that we don't care about results or that we're not ready for results.
You know, so there there's a there there is something there. But the point is, is that because of theology. So when you're looking at so McAvern's theology says that man's got to put a little effort, you know, when it comes to salvation, man has to cooperate with God in order to be saved.
They have to cooperate. So it's it's synergism, you know, God and man together. Whereas what we're saying is the Bible teaches monergism, that salvation is of the Lord. It's a motto. It's one. God is the one that works regeneration in a person, which then gives them the desire to have faith, to believe, to go after Christ, to turn from sin, all of that.
And so this conversation is all about theology at the at the root, at the bottom of it. That's all this is. That's right. And then, you know, you go through here, man. And I have all kinds of scripture, of course.
And here's the thing to think about. And maybe this will help. And I'm sure I'm speaking to the choir, but here's the thing. I know with you, I am, but, you know, I'm sure I'm sure most of your listeners agree with us.
But people. So you hear this a lot, you know, that if if you if you go out, evangelize and you, you know, you bring the whole counsel of God, you put the whole counsel of God out there. Well, then you're going to push people away if you talk about sin, if you talk about judgment and hell and all that, you know, that's not the whole message.
But if that's what you're talking about, man, you're going to push people away. And and Romans eight, verse seven says that the people whose minds are set on the flesh are hostile to God. Amen. If they're hostile to God, you know, they're already pushed away.
Romans three says they're not seeking God. And so, you know, ultimately, that's why we say when we go out, in fact, it's a disservice to hide any of the real counsel of God, because that's the means that God brings about in order to convert people is the whole count, the whole gospel, to bring the gospel to to those who are out there and God uses that.
And so but yeah, that's that this is this is the linchpin, man, for for for everything. When it comes to evangelism methods out there, you see him and you see him in like the secret friendly churches, you see him in the shock and awe of preachers in the open air, you see them.
And I would you know, and I always get so much flack for criticizing some of the great comforts, funny money stuff, you know, but but really, I mean, that's what you see. Right. These are Arminian synergistic methods that are not depending upon the power of God for salvation and the means that he's the means that he's told us that he brings it about, which is the speaking of the gospel, the preaching of the gospel proclamation of Christ.
Amen. I like the I like the quote that you put in chapter three from Stephen Charnock. He's concerning the gospel. It has sometimes conquered its thousands at another time, scarce its ten. Sometimes the harvest has been great when the labors have been but few at another time.
It has been small when the labors have been many, sometimes whole sheaves at at another time, scarce gleanings. The evangelical net has been sometimes full at a cast and at every cast and at another time.
Many have labored all night and all day and caught nothing. The gospel chariot does not always. Well, I'm sorry that this thrills my heart. The gospel chariot does not always return with captives chained to the sides of it.
Sometimes blurred and reproached, wearing the marks of hell spot instead of imprinting the marks of its own beauty. That is such a beautiful statement there and how true it is. But if we get theology, if our theology is not right, if the gospel is not right, then men and women, boys and girls are not truly being saved because they're being saved by false hope, by false promise.
So, man, that is so good. Let's move on.
Well, and this is part of that same chapter, but towards the end there, you know, this is why good theology is so critical when you're evangelizing because in our culture, again, I keep going back to this.
We are living in very barren times right now in the United States. And so what keeps us going without compromising the gospel is our theology, that God is sovereign and that he has his sheep who are going to hear his voice and the means that he uses to bring the sheep in is very simple.
So simple that it's too simple for us. It's the proclamation of the gospel watered by prayer. Amen. That's it.
Amen. Amen. So, I mean, really what we've talked about, we've covered the theology, apologetics of it, the prayer. Let's go to that. Let's actually go to that because that's the last section of your book.
We're just going to skip right to that because I think a lot of times that, and I'm going to say this because I'm an old preacher now, I'm an old man now, so I'm an old preacher and I can say it, I think a lot of the young preachers are so fixed and so set and again, are so connected to theology.
They are connected to the letter, but they are not connected to the spirit of God and to the power of God. And that comes by prayer, by faithfully setting before God men and women and entrusting God to do with those men and women what he sees fit.
Now, in a very real sense, I'm sorry, but in a very real sense, I think that again, it's going to seem very hard to some people, but in a very real sense, one of the worst places that we can put our lost people is in the hands of God.
It's scary for them because the scriptures tell us it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God. But at the same time, and it's beyond our comprehension to understand this, at the same time, as I think it was Spurgeon said, the sovereignty of God is the pillow upon which we lay our head at night, trusting that God is sovereign.
Prayer, prayer is that, and this is, I need to let you explain to us what the importance of prayer is, sir.
Yeah, well, the thing that comes to mind as you're saying it, you're saying it beautifully, it tenderizes us, man. Prayer keeps us tender, I think. Not just, it tenderizes us when it comes to God, it makes us more sensitive to God, to the reality of God, and I think that's the main thing, that it just reminds us of the reality of the supernatural, of the spiritual realm, that this is not a carnal thing, this is not a flesh and blood thing, but there is a spiritual dynamic that's taking place, not just when we're evangelizing, but in all of reality.
And then of course, evangelism fits in with that, but also it tenderizes us towards the people that we're evangelizing, and this is something that is so critical, especially if you're in a, you know, all ministry is difficult, but especially when you're intentionally engaging lost people on a regular basis, or even like on an afternoon, once a month, man, it is difficult to love those people and to have compassion for them and to realize that apart from God's grace, there go I.
So that's what prayer does as far as evangelism goes. It tenderizes us towards them, it makes us more sensitive to the reality of the supernatural, that these things are real, man, that God is, you know, and I know we all say, oh, God is real, I get that, we say that, but prayer gives us entrance into that, access to that, it helps us to have that as a reality in a subjective way, in an experiential way, that this is a real thing, and so I'm looking through here, some of the things that I was writing, and here's the other thing too, look in the scriptures where all the different, this is pointed out by a guy named George Robertson, he says, the Bible never commands or even describes believers praying for people to be converted, I'm not saying that's bad, but he says, rather they pray for more laborers, open doors, boldness, Paul specifically, so Paul is asking for people to pray for him, but the thing is, this is what, I mean, here's the thing, here's what J .F. Hacker says, pray for those whom we seek to win, that the Holy Spirit will open the hearts and should pray for ourselves and our own witness.
John Owen says about praying, he says about the lost, our duty is to pray that God would pour forth his spirit even on them also, who will quickly cause them to look on him whom they have pierced and mourned.
I mean, think of the audacity, and you know, this is to our shame, I think, but think of the audacity of going out, evangelizing, and then not praying about it, you know, not praying for the work, not praying for the people to be converted, and it's not to say that, you know, salvation, salvation is of the Lord, but at the same time, we are told to ask and seek and knock, and all these admonitions, Paul is over here saying, hey, pray for us here, pray for us there, and to your point, Claude, I think this is usually put on the back burner, and not just in our evangelism, but in our daily lives, and it's to our discredit, and I, you know, I mean, this is a, this is something that is, that's why I like reading like Bernard de Clairvaux, some of these, I mean, this, and one of Calvin's favorite writers, by the way, and you read it, and man, this guy's like a, there's some mystical stuff going on in there, but it's refreshing, because it's the opposite of what we have in our culture today, I think, which is, you know, it's just, it's so heady, and so doctrinal, that you lose the other side of it, and of course, the two go together, but you know, we don't, you know, I mean, how many conferences are done on prayer, you know, when's the last conference that you've heard, or I've heard, that is about prayer, we're going to have a conference about prayer, you know, no, it's like, hey, we're going to have a conference about, you know, the, the doctrine of this, the doctrine of that, the doctrine of that.
Well, you know, and I always think like, these prayer meet, or these conferences, you know, if all these guys for like one year, we say, hey, we're not going to have a conference this year, those three or four days that usually come to this conference, stay at home, and intentionally, like get in the closet, get together, and just pray.
For three or four days, stay home and just pray. Don't come over here, don't come watch this, don't come, just stay home and pray. Watch the power of God move on that.
Amen. Amen. Well, I think that's a great place for us to leave off, brother. Again, I want to thank you for being on. I appreciate, I appreciate the truth that you shared in your book and the truth that you shared with us tonight.
For the time that you've given, I know we didn't get to, I mean, we covered it in a roundabout way. But before we close, tell us what are some of the other books that you've written in your most recent book, particularly, very quickly, give us a rundown and summary of the other books so our folks can get those.
Yeah, so there's a almost like an abridged version of Even If None that RHB sells, Reform No Reformation Heritage Books called 10 Modern Myths. Is that right? 10 Evangelism Myths or something. I'm sorry.
It's been a long time. These books, you know, in God's grace, I mean, these are kind of like this. I would love to just to just write, but I don't, you know, I mean, there's a lot going on besides just the books.
And so I think it's called 10 Modern Evangelism Myths, I think, something like that. But anyways, it's somewhat of a an abridged version of Even If None. And it was it was written to, I mean, all my books I try to write to everybody with the exception of there's a book I wrote, actually my first book that I wrote, I co-wrote with a guy named Scott Smith.
And it's a book about open air preaching. It's called A Certain Sound, A Primer on Open Air Preaching. And that was that's also at Reformation Heritage Books, RHB. And then Even If None. And then I wrote a I wrote a book called Augustine the Evangelist.
That's the most recent book, I think. So that came out last year. Might have been a year and a half ago now. So but that's about the methodology of Augustine of Hippo, his approach when it comes to evangelism.
And then I wrote a book called The Reformed Evangelist with with Al Baker. And and so and I'm working on a book about church planning that that I'm working out. But it's it's it needs a lot of it needs it needs a lot of work.
So and you're the first person outside my family, I think.
I've shared that with. So well, praise the Lord. I look forward to that. Yeah. I'm you must amidst the busyness. If you remember me or think of me when you when you get that gets out, shoot me a letter and say get it now.
Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, all these.
Things, it's God's grace. And you know, the other thing, too, is when I started into ministry, it's funny because I was like, man, I'm not going to write any. There's so many good books out there already.
And there are that I'm like, I'm not going to waste any time writing books. But the reason why I'm writing the books that I'm writing is because I do feel like there's a niche and there's a void in this area when it comes to I mean, books that are specifically reformed when it comes to evangelism are very hard to find if I mean, there I don't you know, it's hard.
It's hard. So every book I write is is unapologetically from a reform perspective. And it usually deals with something like evangelism or church planning or open air preaching things that you're not going to find Puritans writing too much about or anything like that.
So but I always do say, man, read other read the Puritan, read these guys behind me before you read my books and definitely be living.
In the Bible like Spurgeon says. Well, Ron, you are you are definitely one of my one of my favorite living theologians. I'll tell you that. Man, would you care to close us.
Out by sharing the gospel, sir? Yeah. Yeah. So the gospel, I always like to start with with God, with who God is. I took that from from from Francis Schaefer years ago. He said, if you know when you're talking to people about about the gospel, the best place to start is with God, especially in our culture, because if you start there and creation, Schaefer's big deal was starting with creation.
So God is creator because that that puts God in a situation where it presents God in a situation where he is the standard. He is the king. He is the Lord. He's the lawgiver that everything that everything that we that, you know, the place we live in, what we do, everything has to be done in light of who God is.
And so when you're talking about God, when you're bringing out his attributes, that he's holy, that he's righteous, that he's just, that he's the judge of all the universe that must judge rightly. You can't bribe him.
You can't you can't you know, you can't do anything to twist his arm. He's a good judge. And so that that's that's if you begin there, everything flows from that. And so from there, God creates man. Look at us today.
You know, so so Adam, of course, was was perfect. He was without sin in the garden. He sins. And then ever since then, every person who's ever born is born in sin, born in iniquity. And we see that demonstrated.
If you have children, you see it right away. But but just just looking at the reality of of our own hearts and realizing that our hearts, like Calvin says, is a factory for idols. And so, like the scriptures say, even our righteous deeds are like filthy garments.
Even the best thing that we do is always tainted by selfishness or pride or something tainted by self. And so in sin, our mothers conceive us and we continue to sin all day long, all night long. And so the problem, of course, is, well, God is good.
He's a good judge. He's a good lawgiver, a righteous lawgiver. He holds people accountable for their sin. That's all we've ever done. Well, how are we going to be right with God? And that's called the great dilemma.
You know, if God is righteous and just and we are sinful, how then can simple man be right with God without God compromising in who he is? And so God himself takes on flesh. God comes motivated by love.
And this is love, not that we love God, but that God loved us. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. So so God takes on flesh. God is the one who does something about the problem, the dilemma that we're in.
Contrast to all the other religions out there in the universe, which says you have to do something about the dilemma. Christianity says no, God does something about the dilemma. Christ comes to earth in the form of a man, lives a perfect life.
He's obedient. Every thought, word, deed, loves his neighbor as himself, loves God with with all his heart, soul, mind and strength, goes to the cross. And then on the cross, when he cries out, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
And Gethsemane, when he's talking about the cup, he's he's talking about God, the father crushing the son on behalf of those whom the son came to save. And so the only way that we are right with God is because Christ paid the penalty.
Christ satisfied the justice of God. Christ is the one that took the wrath that we deserve. He drank the cup of hell so that we will never taste or experience hell. There is no condemnation now because Christ was condemned.
And then, of course, the best part, the part that they always talk about in the book of Acts, this is, by the way, something I think we we we we under undervalue or under talk about. But the resurrection three days later, Christ is raised from the dead.
That's the first fruits. You know, we look at that and we say, you know, this is this is this is what's promised for all those who are in Christ. It's also a validation of what Christ was teaching of his person.
We know that the wages of sin is death. And so Christ being raised from the dead demonstrates that that the penalty for sin has been paid for, has been taken care of by Christ. And then also important, of course, is repenting of our sin and putting our faith in Christ, coming to Christ on his terms.
And that, of course, is going to that implies that that our life now is is one that is in Christ. And we live in light of the work of Christ and the promise that we have in the gospel. But that's, of course, our works are not dependent upon our salvation, but they flow from it.
So but they all go together. You know, if you don't you don't have that, you don't have that those works like we talked about, that lifestyle, if you're not willing to count the cost and take up your cross and suffer and all those things, then, you know, it's it would be it would be good to ask yourself if you are in the faith and seek the Lord's face on that.