March 18, 2020 Show with Dr. Norman De Jong on “Separation of Church & State: The Myth Revisited”

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Separation of Church and State as a Myth and Why the Phrase Is Misleading

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 18th day of March 2020 and I'm thrilled to have as a returning guest today. Dr Norman de Young who has served as professor of Christian education at Dort College and Trinity College and As an ordained minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination.

He and he is the author of numerous books today. We are going to be addressing one of them Separation of church and state the myth revisited and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio Dr. Norman de Young.

Thanks, Chris, it's a delight to be. I am as well and I wanted to read an email I received yesterday In response to the publicity For this interview with you an old friend of mine going back to the 1980s Reverend Steve Schlissel who is pastor of Messiah's reformed congregation in Brooklyn, New York.

He said in response to hearing that you are going to be on the show. Fantastic. Chris norm has had vision so far ahead of the curve that Christian publishers did not understand his book titles. He'll explain that to you if you ask him true story, but that's a testament to how clearly Van Prinsterer had taught norm to see and how everyone else followed marks Including Western Christianity.

I was from pastor Steve Schlissel quite an impressive Quite an impressive commendation for you today. Now I hope I I Hope that I pronounced your mentor van Prinsterer correctly. I may have butchered that.

Okay.

Well, um, this is a very provocative title. First of all when you say separation of church and state the myth revisited that not only may bother liberals and libertines But it may even bother bother some conservatives who may misunderstand what you're saying because Obviously There are many conservative Christians Who despise the fact that the government the state? Meddles and interferes and sometimes even prohibits the affairs and activities of the church.

So many perhaps in history. It was predominantly Baptists and independent and free churches throughout history who Certainly were striving for and hoping for and praying for a separation of church in state to preserve and protect Their own activity in the body of Christ.

So what do you exactly mean when you say the myth revisited?

Well, that word was I call it a myth. Because in my mind you cannot separate. I mean, let me briefly explain that I Am a mess. State of Illinois. State and church are both. I Come to as a Christian. I consider that to be murder.

I Cannot support it. I cannot condone it as a citizen. My religious beliefs Affect. But that is equally true for a so-called Chris. Support abortion they believe That there is a real act. This is really a myth.

You cannot separate those two. I cannot separate my religious belief from my civil. Inextricably linked. True for Atheism is a religion. It's anti God. It's a religion. That's him sovereign. God doesn't exist.

Commitment at a religious position. Everybody is in some. You cannot separate. It's a myth that has been created. By the courts, I'll named it and Thomas Jefferson him. They demanded that Exists, even though they didn't have.

So yes myth is very intentional and I won't back away from it.

The First Amendment, State Religions, and the Limits of Federal Establishment

Now obviously Some take the understanding of the separation of church and state From the constitutional Promise if you will that the United States will not establish a religion. The founding fathers Did not want to repeat what England had done with the Church of England.

In fact many people who? Arrived on the shores of the North American continent were fleeing religious persecution. Not only a Baptist but Puritans and others. Were fleeing from the oppression of the Church of England and I'm assuming that you would not want a Religion or a church an official American Church to be established by the United States government because your own religious beliefs and activities and practices May be thwarted or outlawed depending upon who's in power.

Let me take a little issue with you there Chris.

You can take issue with anything I say at all doesn't matter. In fact, I want you to correct me if you think I'm speaking out of ignorance here.

Well, I also Decided but we're not going to because we're like New York. We have a very diverse population. Let each should not impose that is the states the time of Virginia Connecticut and Massachusetts all had.

Is that the primary track that neither Congress nor the states nor any government there must be interested in the case.

Don't don't be so don't be sorry at all. Obviously, this is why we have you on the program. You are an authority on the issue.

Well.

Tell us about our national creeds.

Well, the interesting thing is and there was plenty of it going on. A lot of them were forced to either go into hiding. Many of them were actually killed Roman Catholic Church, so these people had to flee and get out of the country.

They came to big colonies. They came to America Because they wanted to practice their own religion their way without of America. We're you get to you have a very strong Connecticut Foundation one. Everything they could to evangelize the that's not known.

Well, you won't find many history books That will tell you that but if you go to any of the totally secular they want to Eliminate God now. We already addressed.

The prohibition Against a Congress to establish a religion, but do you have anything further to say about the constitutional context of what we're discussing?

Well at the very same time. That is trying to formulate a new Constitution. No, I. I want you to be as thorough and detailed as possible.

I have a different philosophy as you may know of hosting a radio show or hosting a talk show in general. I don't believe that if a host Invites a guest on who is supposed to be an expert on an issue, especially a book that he wrote himself.

I don't think the host should be constantly interrupting the guests. So I use my program as a platform for those whom I invite on the show so you could feel free. To be as lengthy and detailed as you wish as long as you don't change subjects at midstream without any kind of commentary.

For me, that's that's the only line that I draw. Believe me What you're doing is far better than giving short answers and requiring that I pull teeth During an interview, but I'm like I like being interviewed by you.

You're a good host. I appreciate that and I'm gonna give our email address To our listeners so that they can join us on the air as well. The email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA and Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you have a disagreement with your own pastor and Elders over this issue and you don't want to draw a you don't want to draw attention to your identity or perhaps you're a pastor and You disagree with your fellow elders or your denomination over this?

Well, we will we understand those are valid reasons to remain anonymous. But if it's just a general question please give us at least your first name your city and state and Your country of residence if you live outside the USA and we do have a question from Johnny in Queens, New York.

Thank you for addressing this issue. Many in Christ's Church have brought into this false notion of separation between these two establishments. Christians are rendered powerless. Biblical convictions for righteousness are kept private and not walked and not Walked out into effective change via secular activism.

How would you encourage a change in this sort of stinking thinking. And empower the church to exercise our Liberty in Christ to influence our government and world. For good, that's Johnny in Queens, New York.

That's a very good question that there must be the whole. We have eliminated God.

Any.

Discussion about God. Any prayer to God from our public schools. To 90 attempts to once again. Yes, what? Yes, I give a hearty. Amen to that.

Public Schools, Religious Instruction, and the Role of Christian Parents

We have to go to our first break right now and by the way, Johnny in Queens, New York, give me your full mailing address because you have won a free copy of Norman de Young's book separation of church and state the myth Revisited which he wrote in Cooperation with Jack Vander Seek.

Am I pronouncing Jack's slick? I'm sorry, Jack. I'm sorry. Yeah, right, right. Jack Vander slick who is From sang him in or at least he was sang him in State University, Springfield, Illinois. But we are going.

I'll give you give me your full mailing address Johnny so we can have that book shipped out to you Separation of church and state the myth revisited and this will be actually shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible book service cv bbs .com a faithful supporter of iron sharpens iron radio.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own when we return from the break. Send in your questions now to Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. And as always give us your first name at least your city and state and Your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, don't go away. We'll be right back with Norman de Young and separation of church and state the myth revisited. When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

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State Religions, the Constitution, and the Meaning of the First Amendment

We are now back with our Discussion with Norman D young we are discussing his book separation of church and state the myth revisited That he wrote in cooperation with Jack van der slik. And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a RN Z and a gmail .com and please as always give us your first name at least your city and state In your country of residence if you live outside the USA and This is a good question to ask Since we are coming back from a break and some people might have tuned in Late anyway, but we have Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

Who says I'm still not clear? Whether your guest Norman de Young believes that the individual states have a constitutional right to establish a state religion and whether he thinks that is a good thing the.

Answer to that is Population. The situation was so diverse that everybody else's what they did was took those. Tax money came from the abided. Proportionally percent of the people in their state were Presbyterians would get 30 more diverse.

I'm from New York before I relocated to Pennsylvania.

I lived in New York all my life until 2014 and I would never want New York. Establish a state religion. Knowing of the the the dominance of leftism in the population there I would be obviously utterly horrified with with whatever religion they sought to establish.

In fact, they really had a real they really have established a relax it a religion. But it's certainly not the religion of the scriptures.

Well, I have argued in other what we do have and it's a school system are given all the money. They set the curriculum. They teach what they consider want to set up a private treated like a dissenter from the French.

You don't get any money. The public school gets all the money and they're teaching a Tremendous amount of which we have to object to. So basically what you're saying that the thrust of your argument is.

Not for a return. For established state religions, but it is to counteract the idea.

That.

Whenever we have a a biblical voice in our nation where people are decrying the Infanticide that has become legalized through abortion laws and Same-sex marriage and we could go on and on when the leftists say Keep your mouth shut when it comes to your personal religious views in Response we could say now.

I don't want to establish or see a state church established in the 21st century, but.

The.

Constitution only forbids Congress from establishing a state religion or a Official religion over the entire nation. It does not. The Constitution does not Restrict state religions and It therefore would never restrict the voice of Christians and Bible believers from having their say and and and from Influencing the way that the state where in which they live is governed.

Yeah.

I hope that nobody Listening anywhere would ever come to the conclusion that I want to have. I have the right to myself. Penalties of religion is in this land. Even though they want to kill Christians believe our idolaters But we still grant them freedom of religion.

The Wall of Separation, Jefferson, Madison, and the Virginia Struggle

Great and thank you Ted for compelling a clarification from our guest and give us your full mailing address because you have also won a free copy of Separation of church and state the myth revisited by our guests.

Today and once again our friends at cvbbs .com Cumberland Valley Bible Book Services Will be shipping that out to you at no charge to you or to iron trip and Zion radio. We have Pete in Youngstown, Ohio.

And he asks what did Norman mean when he referred to a wall of Separation between church and state. Was it anything remotely comparable to how that phrase is understood today? Didn't Madison. Refer to a line of separation rather than a wall.

Why did neither term make it into the Constitution?

Speaking of Jefferson right now. I'm talking about Jefferson. No. No, no, no.

You're you're utterly fascinating believe me. Well, thank you Pete in Youngstown, Ohio. Make sure we get your full mailing address because you have also won the book separation of church and state the myth revisited by Norman de Young and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cvbbs .com will ship that out to you as Soon as possible.

Please make sure we get your mailing address as soon as possible. Uh, let's see here we have a question That this is from John and Bangor, Maine and he says I Agree with statements that Chris Arnzen the host of this program has said in previous broadcasts that he does not believe that Religion should be a part of the curriculum of public schools.

Because in this day and age you could have a teacher or a school principal Who is a Mormon or member of another false church? teaching children religion and Leading them in prayer and so on. I obviously believe it should be the legal right of students to pray privately and Quietly, but I do not believe that the actual established leadership and faculty of a public school Should be leading children in anything that would be considered religious teaching or observance.

So, how do you react to that? And in fact, I would add to that as far as my own view, I Believe that Christians should be sending their children to Christian private schools or homeschooling them and And I that's why I gave you a hearty. Amen when you are talking about the fact that Citizens in this nation should be free from the obligation to fund public schools with their tax Dollars and they should be able to use that money for charter schools private schools, etc but if you could.

Let me respond to his question. In fact, let me have you finish that answer.

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The Proper Role of Public Schools and the Responsibility of Christian Parents

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