March 18, 2020 Show with Dr. Norman De Jong on “Separation of Church & State: The Myth Revisited”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 18th day of March, 2020.

And I'm thrilled to have as a returning guest today, Dr. Norman DeYoung, who has served as professor of Christian education at Dort College and Trinity College, and is an ordained minister in the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination. He is the author of numerous books.

Today we are going to be addressing one of them, Separation of Church and State, The Myth Revisited.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Norman DeYoung.

Thanks, Chris. It's a delight to be with you again. I'm looking forward to the discussion.

I am as well, and I wanted to read an email I received yesterday in response to the publicity for this interview with you.

An old friend of mine going back to the 1980s, Rev. Steve Schlissel, who is pastor of Messiah's Reformed Congregation in Brooklyn, New York, he said in response to hearing that you are going to be on the show,

Fantastic, Chris. Norm has had vision so far ahead of the curve that Christian publishers did not understand his book titles.

He'll explain that to you if you ask him. True story. But that's a testament to how clearly

Van Prinsterer had taught Norm to see and how everyone else followed

Marx, including Western Christianity. That was from Pastor Steve Schlissel.

Quite an impressive commendation for you today.

I don't deserve that. Now, I hope that I pronounced your mentor,

Van Prinsterer, correctly. I may have butchered that. Well, let's let that one slide.

I will pronounce it as fine. Okay. Well, this is a very provocative title.

First of all, when you say separation of church and state, the myth revisited, that not only may bother liberals and libertines, but it may even bother some conservatives who may misunderstand what you're saying because obviously there are many conservative

Christians who despise the fact that the government, the state, meddles and interferes and sometimes even prohibits the affairs and activities of the church.

So many, perhaps in history, it was predominantly Baptists and independent and free churches throughout history who certainly were striving for and hoping for and praying for a separation of church and state to preserve and protect their own activity in the body of Christ.

So what do you exactly mean when you say the myth revisited? Well, that word was very deliberately chosen and I won't back away from it.

I call it a myth because in my mind you cannot separate church from state.

Let me briefly explain that. I am a member of a church.

I am a believer in Jesus Christ and his holy word. I am also a registered citizen in the state of Illinois.

I am a person. State and church are both people.

And I come to a situation, to an issue like abortion, for example, and I say, alright, as a

Christian I consider that to be murder. I cannot support it. I cannot condone it.

As a citizen called to vote on things, my religious beliefs affect very directly how

I vote. But that is equally true for the atheist or for many so -called

Christians who support abortion. They believe that there is a real actual separation of church and state.

And I'm arguing, as I do in the first part of the book, that this is really a myth.

You cannot separate those two. I cannot separate my religious beliefs and practices from my civil beliefs and practices.

They are inextricably linked together always. That's true for every person.

I've argued, for example, that atheism is a religion. It's anti -God.

It's a religion that says, I am sovereign, God doesn't exist.

That's a religious commitment and a religious position. Everybody is religious in some form or other.

So you cannot separate it. It's a myth that has been created by the courts because of what certain religious groups requested.

And I'll name them. Back there in the 1800s, when Thomas Jefferson was president, the

Baptists pressured him and created such a stir.

They demanded that separation of church and state exist, even though they didn't have a theological basis for that.

So it has become a myth that has been embraced as though it were reality.

So yes, myth is very intentional, and I won't back away from it.

Now, obviously, some take the understanding of the separation of church and state from the constitutional promise, if you will, that the

United States will not establish a religion. The Founding Fathers did not want to repeat what

England had done with the Church of England. In fact, many people who arrived on the shores of the

North American continent were fleeing religious persecution, not only

Baptists but Puritans and others, were fleeing from the oppression of the

Church of England. And I'm assuming that you would not want a religion or a church, an official

American church to be established by the United States government because your own religious beliefs and activities and practices may be thwarted or outlawed depending upon who's in power.

Let me take a little issue with you there, Chris. You can take issue with anything

I say at all, it doesn't matter. In fact, I want you to correct me if you think I'm speaking out of ignorance here.

Well, I accept the First Amendment to the

Constitution. It is very, very specific. Congress shall make no establishment of religion.

Congress is forbidden to establish a state church.

But that was because nine of the original colonies had established state churches.

And the argument in the Convention and throughout that period of history was that this must be left to each individual state.

A state like New York. Let me back up a little bit. When the

Declaration of Independence was signed, all of these 13 original colonies became independent states.

They had to make decisions. Nine of those 13 had established state churches.

Once they got past the Declaration of Independence, New York state said we should not establish a particular state church because our population is so diverse.

That was also decided in Delaware.

And the people in Delaware said, these other nine states all have established churches, but we're not going to because we're like New York.

We have a very diverse population. Let each state make its own decisions.

But Congress should not impose an established state church on the nation because that is the jurisdiction of the states.

So at the time after the Constitution was established,

Georgia, South Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, New Hampshire, Connecticut, and Massachusetts all had established state churches, which meant that the primary tax monies collected would go to the established state church, and those who were not part of it were called dissenters.

Baptists always shied away from that, so they were always labeled as dissenters, and they wanted to keep that position.

So the Emerson case back in 1947 erroneously ruled that neither

Congress, nor the states, nor any government may ever establish a church.

There must be a definite wall of separation. That court decision in 1947 is so severely flawed, it should be overturned.

I don't think it ever will, but it should be. Sorry about getting interested in the case.

Don't be sorry at all. Obviously this is why we have you on the program. You are an authority on the issue.

Well, tell us about our national creeds. Well, the interesting thing is, when people in England, or in the

Netherlands, or in Germany experienced persecution, and there was plenty of it going on, a lot of them were forced to either go into hiding, many of them were actually killed because of their faith.

The Roman Catholic Church at that point in history was extremely violent and vicious, so these people had to flee and get out of the country.

They came to the colonies, they came to America, because they wanted to practice their own religion their way, without persecution.

The shores of America were a safe haven for them. So you get to Connecticut, and you have a very strong Puritan, congregational commitment there, to religious observance, to living out their lives for God.

And I mention Connecticut, because the foundation of Connecticut's constitution was that they existed for one purpose, and one purpose only, and that was to train missionaries for the

Indians, and to do everything they could to evangelize the

Indians in this new land where they came. That's not known well.

You won't find many history books that will tell you that, but if you go to any of the sources that I consulted in the

Newberry Library or in the Library of Congress, it's all there for anybody to see and read.

But our American history books over the last 50 years have become so totally secular they want to eliminate

God and religious practices from our record.

They are severely deficient in what they're teaching our children.

Now we already addressed the prohibition against Congress to establish a religion, but do you have anything further to say about the constitutional context of what we're discussing?

Well, at the very same time that the

Congress was trying to formulate a new constitution back there in 1784, 85, 86, 87, because after the war against England had been finished, the colonists, these new people in America, realized they had to formulate a better government.

The Articles of Confederation that they had were so weak, so impotent, so they decided we're going to have a constitutional convention and we're going to create a new constitution based on our experience and our desires.

At the very same time that's going on, these people realized they had a huge, huge problem.

They had worthless money. They had a vast new territory that they had won in the war.

Everything north and west of the Ohio River now became theirs and they had to govern it.

They also had thousands upon thousands of soldiers who were no longer needed in the military, but there was no money to pay them and there were no jobs.

So they said, Washington and Madison in particular, said we have to do something to solve this problem, otherwise we're going to just dissolve into nothing.

So they looked at that northwest territory and said that vast region is a source of tremendous wealth.

That land is ours. If we sold that land off, we could then pay the soldiers, pay our debts.

We could then have enough money to govern our new nation. So out of that whole process, occupying a time of about four years, the

Congress was considering not only a new constitution, but also what came to be called the

Northwest Ordinance of 1787. 1787, that was finally passed so that they could now start selling off all of that new land, everything that is considered

Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, that whole part of the country was now

American property. But George Washington was a surveyor by trade, also a fantastic leader of the nation.

But they said, you know what? We're going to have to do this very systematically. We're going to have to take that big territory and put it into organizational districts.

So they decided that they would set up a governing territory of six by six miles.

Six times six is 36. We're going to survey all of that new land as we can, and we're going to designate that section 16, right squared in the middle of that territory, be reserved for education because everybody is going to have to have schools.

And those schools have to be Christian in character. Their whole curriculum was built around God's word and around the primer and some of the

Westminster standards. But they even went further, and they said also in each one of these districts, there has to be a source of money that we can use for establishing churches and paying for pastor's salaries.

Section 29 is going to be reserved for posterity for the sake of establishing, building churches and paying for pastor's salaries because religion, morality, and knowledge are essential to good government.

That was passed and became the law of the land with no ending date in sight.

That is something that you won't find in history books, but it's there, very clearly there.

By the grace of God, I stumbled upon that section 29 back in the fall of 1979 and said,

I had a PhD in educational history. Why didn't I ever know that?

Why has that been kept from me? So I appealed for an

NEH grant, National Endowment for Humanities. I got one at Northwestern University just outside of Chicago.

And I did a tremendous amount of research which produced this book that we're talking about.

And I found material there that has been completely left out of most of our history books in this country since the 1970s, 1980s, go back even that, 1950s.

So there was a very strong national desire pervading the nation saying that religion, morality, and knowledge must all go together and we must do everything possible to make sure that we establish it in all the new states that are set up.

So, sorry to make a long answer to a short question. Now I want you to be as thorough and detailed as possible.

I have a different philosophy, as you may know, of hosting a radio show or hosting a talk show in general.

I don't believe that if a host invites a guest on who is supposed to be an expert on an issue, especially a book that he wrote himself,

I don't think the host should be constantly interrupting the guest. So I use my program as a platform for those whom

I invite on the show. So you can feel free to be as lengthy and detailed as you wish as long as you don't change subjects midstream without any kind of commentary from me.

That's the only line that I draw. Believe me, what you're doing is far better than giving short answers and requiring that I pull teeth during an interview.

I like being interviewed by you. You're a good host. I appreciate that. And I'm going to give our email address to our listeners so that they can join us on the air as well.

The email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N gmail .com

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you have a disagreement with your own pastor and elders over this issue and you don't want to draw attention to your identity.

Or perhaps you're a pastor and you disagree with your fellow elders or your denomination over this.

Well, we understand those are valid reasons to remain anonymous. But if it's just a general question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And we do have a question from Johnny in Queens, New York. Thank you for addressing this issue.

Many in Christ's church have brought into this false notion of separation between these two establishments.

Christians are rendered powerless. Biblical convictions for righteousness are kept private and not walked out into effective change via secular activism.

How would you encourage a change in this sort of stinking thinking and empower the church to exercise our liberty in Christ to influence our government and world for good?

That's Johnny in Queens, New York. That's a very good question. Let me just back up a little bit and say that ever since 1947, that Everson case, it has become an official document or position of our government that there must be a wall of separation between church and state.

That's been going on now for, let's see, about 70 -some years.

That's a tragedy because our nation, I think as a whole, has become too secular.

We have eliminated God, any discussion about God, any prayer to God from our public schools, which educate about 85 -90 % of all the children in our country.

There have been many attempts to once again at least get prayer into the schools so that children can pray.

There was a case back in Massachusetts some years ago when we had the

Iran crisis at the time that President Reagan was in office, and a school said, we have to pray to God that all of those

American citizens could be released from the Iran prison. So they did.

Some citizen comes with a complaint and said you may do that because there's a wall of separation between church and state.

And the courts agreed with the complainer and said you may not pray to God because praying to God is a religious activity, and you may not do that in this country, in a public school.

Now, that's shameful. But in response to your question,

Johnny, I was so encouraged back in January when

President Trump gave the State of the Union address. And he pointed out the fact that our government schools have really been failing our children in so many ways.

And I was so appreciative when he appointed

Betsy DeVos as the Secretary of Education. Betsy DeVos, back in Michigan, did everything she could to establish charter schools to break the control of the

Michigan Education Union in the public schools. And when

Trump appointed her, I said, boy, that indicates he has the right perspective in mind.

There are now attempts going on. I know in Florida there is a very strong attempt to establish school choice as a state policy, giving parents a choice of going to either a public school or to a private parochial school and getting state funding for their tuition.

The teacher unions hate that with a passion. They'll do everything they can to prevent it.

But you and I need to encourage politicians who are running for office and say, make that part of your cause.

Go in there and argue, but get the information you need so that we can once again have a right as citizens to the kind of schools that our children need.

Yes, I give a hearty amen to that. We have to go to our first break right now.

And by the way, Johnny in Queens, New York, give me your full mailing address because you have won a free copy of Norman D.

Young's book Separation of Church and State, The Myth Revisited, which he wrote in cooperation with Jack Van Der Seek.

Am I pronouncing Jack's? Slick, I'm sorry. Jack Van Der Seek. I'm sorry?

Yeah, Slick is right. Right, Jack Van Der Slick, who is from Sangamon, or at least he was,

Sangamon State University, Springfield, Illinois. But we are going...

Oh, give me your full mailing address, Johnny, so we can have that book shipped out to you,

Separation of Church and State, The Myth Revisited. And this will be actually shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

a faithful supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own when we return from the break, send in your questions now to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Norman D. Young and Separation of Church and State, The Myth Revisited.

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We are now back with our discussion with Norman D. Young. We are discussing his book

Separation of Church and State, The Myth Revisited, that he wrote in cooperation with Jack Vanderslick.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com And please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. This is a good question to ask since we are coming back from a break and some people might have tuned in late anyway, but we have

Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama who says, I'm still not clear whether your guest

Norman D. Young believes that the individual states have a constitutional right to establish a state religion and whether he thinks that is a good thing.

The answer to that is the situation today is very, very different from what it was back in 1776 when the nation became independent.

The population was very small, approximately 4 million people in those 13 colonies.

Today we're looking at something like 330 million. The situation in a state like New York was such that the population was so diverse that you could not establish one church without hurting and impacting everybody else in the state.

So what they did was took those tax monies that came from these township sales and they would divide it proportionally.

If 10 % of the people in their state were Presbyterians, they would get 10 % of the tax money.

If 30 % of the population were Congregationalists, they would get 30%.

If 7 % were Baptists, they would be offered that 7%.

But most of the time they would refuse because they didn't want any kind of connection with the state.

So that was the way they addressed it as they became more diverse. Today in our country we have all different kinds of ethnic backgrounds, all different nationalities, all different religious persuasions, and it would be impossible to try to set up one church as the established church for the state of Illinois.

It just could not work. It could not happen. But that doesn't mean that you have to put clamps on the church or on the state so that they cannot interact in any way.

There must always be an interaction between citizens who are believers and state officials who govern the territory.

That kind of situation is so different today that yes,

I would not for one minute recommend established state church. I'm from New York before I relocated to Pennsylvania.

I lived in New York all my life until 2014, and I would never want

New York to establish a state religion. Knowing the dominance of leftism in the population there,

I would be obviously utterly horrified with whatever religion they sought to establish.

In fact, they really have established a religion, but it's certainly not the religion of the scriptures.

I have argued in other writings of mine that we do have an established state church in the

United States. It happens to be the public school system. They are the ones who are given all the money, who are given priority.

They set the curriculum. They teach what they consider to be worthwhile information, and if you want to set up a private

Christian school or a parochial school, you're treated like a dissenter, and you are on the fringe.

You don't get any money. The public school gets all the money, and they're teaching a tremendous amount of falsehood, which we have to object to.

So basically what you're saying, the thrust of your argument, is not for a return for established state religions, but it is to counteract the idea that whenever we have a biblical voice in our nation where people are decrying the infanticide that has become legalized through abortion laws and same -sex marriage, and we could go on and on, when the leftists say, keep your mouth shut when it comes to your personal religious views, in response we could say, now

I don't want to establish or see a state church established in the 21st century, but the

Constitution only forbids Congress from establishing a state religion or an official religion over the entire nation.

The Constitution does not restrict state religions, and it therefore would never restrict the voice of Christians and Bible believers from having their say and from influencing the way that the state in which they live is governed.

I hope that nobody listening anywhere would ever come to the conclusion that I want to have an established state church in this country.

That's so far from where I am at. I'm complaining that we have allowed the public school system to become our established state church.

I argue, I will argue vigorously for freedom of religion. I have the right to believe and worship as I think is best.

So does a Mormon. An atheist says, I don't want to worship.

I want to just be myself. Fine. We're not going to clamp him in jail because he's an atheist.

But if he does something now to harm a believer, then we have to bring penalties against him.

We have to allow Muslims. Freedom of religion is in this land.

Even though theologically they want to kill

Christians because they believe that Christians are idolaters.

But we still grant them freedom of religion. So I hope

I'm not misunderstood on that. Great. And thank you, Ted, for compelling a clarification from our guest.

And give us your full mailing address because you have also won a free copy of Separation of Church and State, The Myth Revisited by our guest today.

And once again, our friends at cvbbs .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Services will be shipping that out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

We have Pete in Youngstown, Ohio. And he asks,

What did Norman mean when he referred to a wall of separation between church and state?

Was it anything remotely comparable to how that phrase is understood today?

Didn't Madison refer to a line of separation rather than a wall?

Why did neither term make it into the Constitution? The reason that neither one of those got into the

Constitution was because all of those people in the

Constitutional Convention were very comfortable with established state churches.

That was the pattern that they had carried over from Europe when they came.

And it was not in any way a threat to them. Now, at the same time

I say that, from about 1790 on, there was already a great deal of division within the new

United States about these matters. George Washington was chosen as president because he was the obvious national leader.

He decided that he would serve no more than two terms. He could have been, he could have chosen to be king, almost, he was so popular.

But George Washington was deeply concerned about the ideas that Thomas Jefferson and the

Baptists were preaching. Thomas Jefferson was the one who started the

Democratic -Republican societies. And if you read George Washington's farewell speech after his second term, he expressed a great deal of fear that these societies would create chaos and disturbance in the land.

Because Thomas Jefferson was almost the exact opposite of George Washington.

He was a deist through and through. In many ways, he hated the

Reformed faith. I'm talking about Jefferson.

Thomas Jefferson, I am sorry, folks, but I have very little respect for that man.

I think that he created tremendous problems and controversies in our land because he was pushing this idea of democratic societies and argued vigorously against the

Constitution. He argued from a position where he actually despised the religion that Washington and Adams and Hamilton and all of those

Federalists held to. If you read some of the correspondence between President John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson comes across as an atheist.

And President John Adams is a very devout Calvinist. But Jefferson was elected as President in 1800 because there was so much controversy that he had stirred up.

And that was the most difficult election that I think our country has ever had. But that may be getting me off the track a bit too far.

I'm sorry if I am. No, no, no, no. You're utterly fascinating, believe me.

Well, thank you, Pete, in Youngstown, Ohio. Make sure we get your full mailing address because you have also won the book

Separation of Church and State, The Myth Revisited by Norman D. Young and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVVBS .com

will ship that out to you as soon as possible. Please make sure we get your mailing address as soon as possible.

Let's see here. We have a question that this is from John in Bangor, Maine.

And he says, I agree with statements that Chris Arnzen, the host of this program, has said in previous broadcasts that he does not believe that religion should be a part of the curriculum of public schools because in this day and age you could have a teacher or a school principal who is a

Mormon or member of another false church teaching children religion and leading them in prayer and so on.

I obviously believe it should be the legal right of students to pray privately and quietly, but I do not believe that the actual established leadership and faculty of a public school should be leading children in anything that would be considered religious teaching or observance.

So how do you react to that? In fact, I would add to that, as far as my own view, I believe that Christians should be sending their children to Christian private schools or homeschooling them.

That's why I gave you a hearty amen when you were talking about the fact that citizens in this nation should be free from the obligation to fund public schools with their tax dollars and they should be able to use that money for charter schools, private schools, etc.

But if you could... Let me respond to his question. I do not recommend sending children to public schools.

In fact, let me have you finish that answer. I didn't realize how late it was. We have to go to our midway break right now.

So give your complete answer when we return. Folks, this is the longer than normal break, our midway break, so please be patient with us.

This is the time of the program where we are required to allow

Grace Life Radio, who airs this program twice a day in a pre -recorded format, we are required to permit them to localize

Iron Sherp and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, which is an FCC requirement. And therefore, while we air our globally heard commercials, they air their own public service announcements and other local things to localize

Iron Sherp and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. So please use this time wisely during this elongated break.

Not only write down the information provided by our advertisers, as I said earlier when

I was referring to solid -ground -books .com, write down the information for our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them so that they, in return, remain our advertisers because without them, we will go off the air for certain, barring a miracle from God.

So please patronize our advertisers and to further ensure that you can do that, write down the information that they provide, as much of it as possible.

And also, send us a question for Norman D. Young on separation of church and state, The Myth Revisited, at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Norman D. Young after these messages from our sponsors.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is

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Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled

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Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. And currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more.

And in approximately 10 different states. In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history.

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Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win. Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878.

1 -800 -669 -4878. Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

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And that's ptlbiblerebinding .com. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus, reading, preaching and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops and local hangouts,

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Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB. I'm Dr. Joe Moorcraft, pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Anthony Uvino, founder of TheReformRookie .com

and co -founder of New York Apologetics, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Tim Bushong of Syracuse Baptist Church in Syracuse, Indiana, and the NASB is my

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Historical Bible Society, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Joe Bianchi, president of Calvi Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers, which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org, that's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, a frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family has been selling books and bibles for over $1 ,000 a year. The family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is cvbbs .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the

Church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.

That's cvbbs .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And don't forget, folks, you can call cvbbs .com as well at 800 -656 -0231.

800 -656 -0231 only between the hours of 10 a .m.

and 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time. That is the only time that phone line is manned.

There is no voicemail for you to leave a message. So make sure you call between 10 a .m.

and 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time. If you prefer calling rather than ordering on the

Internet, at 800 -656 -0231. We thank cvbbs .com

for always shipping out books that our listeners win, free of charge, not only to the listener, but to us as well.

Thank you, cvbbs .com. I have a few announcements to make before we return to our guest today,

Norman DeYoung. If you just tuned us in, we are discussing Norman's book, Separation of Church and State, The Myth Revisited.

Before we return to that discussion, I'd like to announce the launching of a new program with Pastor Joe Jackowitz.

It starts tonight and continues airing every Wednesday, God willing. It's called

Bible Talk and it airs right here on First Love Radio, the Internet network where you are hearing this program live streamed.

Bible Talk with Joe Jackowitz. That's every Wednesday night at 10 p .m.

Eastern Daylight Time. 10 p .m. Eastern Daylight Time and for those of our listeners on the

West Coast, 7 p .m. Pacific. So just jot a note down wherever you will see it most frequently.

Perhaps stick a note on your refrigerator or wherever else you most frequently visit.

Bible Talk with Pastor Joe Jackowitz begins airing every Wednesday starting tonight, which is an online

Bible study, by the way. It's going to be continuing every Wednesday night until further notice at 10 p .m.

Eastern Daylight Time, 7 p .m. Pacific. And we hope you begin listening to that program.

And by the way, Joe Jackowitz preaches every day, Monday through Friday, immediately following Iron Trump and Zion Radio at 6 p .m.

Eastern Daylight Time. So remember to remain on the live streaming after Iron Trump and Zion Radio is over so you can hear

Pastor Joe Jackowitz preaching, which is a different program than Bible Talk.

Also, folks, I want all men in ministry leadership to come to the

Iron Trump and Zion Radio Spring Pastors Luncheon here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania at the

Bongiorno Conference Center here in Carlisle. We have the distinct honor and privilege of having as our guest speaker for the very first time

Dr. Conrad M. Bayway. He has very rightfully earned the nickname the

Spurgeon of Africa. I cannot think of a preacher that I have heard alive today on the planet

Earth that exceeds the power and the oratory gifts and the exegetical gifts of Dr.

Conrad M. Bayway. So I strongly urge you to come, if at all possible, on Friday, May 29th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at the Bongiorno Conference Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Not only will you receive a delicious meal for free at the

Bongiorno Conference Center and hear the preaching of Dr. Conrad M. Bayway for free, and by the way, he's the pastor of Kabwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and a lecturer at African Christian University, but you'll hear him, as I just said, preach for free.

But you'll also be getting a ton of free books that I have personally selected from major Christian publishers all over the

United States and the United Kingdom. So every man that attends this luncheon will leave with a heavy sack of books absolutely free of charge.

This was the brainchild, this luncheon, what began as an annual luncheon and now is a biannual luncheon, began as the brainchild of my precious late wife,

Julie, now spending eternity with Christ. And we conducted these ever since the 1990s every year in New York, before I relocated to Pennsylvania after her entering into eternity with Christ.

And when I moved here to Pennsylvania, I relaunched these luncheons in her honor and memory.

So I hope that you can come. Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

and put luncheon in the subject line. Of course, we don't know what

God has in store and his providence and sovereignty in regard to the coronavirus scare going on.

I don't know if by May 29th we would be still restricted from having an event this large, but I will keep you updated on that.

And as far as we know right now, the luncheon is still on Friday, May 29th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at the Bongiorno Conference Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. And now

I'd like to do something that I really don't like doing, but it is something that I need to do.

We are experiencing the worst financial trial since Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio first launched in 2005.

I know that I have said in the past that we have been experiencing financial trials and we urgently need your donations.

It has never been more true than now. Two of my largest financial supporters have informed me that they will likely not be able to continue financially supporting this program for at least two or three months from now.

So that is a very long period of not receiving the financial aid of these two very key benevolent supporters.

And it is all because of this coronavirus scare that has negatively affected their businesses.

So please, I'm urging you, I'm begging you, if you love this show, you don't want us to disappear, please go to ironsharpensirenradio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now. And donate as generously as you can to this program, that is, if indeed you love it and don't want it to go away.

You can also send in a check via snail mail, the old -fashioned way, to the address that appears on ironsharpensirenradio .com

when you click support. Please never take money away from the important bills that you have and don't put your family in financial jeopardy by donating to Ironsharpensirenradio .com.

Don't take food off of your dinner table, obviously. But if you have been blessed financially above and beyond your ability to provide for your church and your home, which are two commands of scripture, please set aside some money for Ironsharpensirenradio .com

and your monthly benevolent fund, charitable fund, what have you. I have no problem asking you to take money out of your recreational money that you use, especially since many of your venues of recreation are now currently restricted to you because of the coronavirus scare.

So please consider using some of that money to help keep us on the air, if indeed you love the show. Also, if you would like to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe, you don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that is at the very least compatible with what

I believe, please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

We are in desperate need of your advertising dollars, so please consider that very seriously.

Also, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church and you're not even prayerfully searching for one, you are living in rebellion against God, so let me remind you to please, if you need help finding a

Bible -believing church in your area anywhere in the world, please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

I do have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the globe, and I have successfully helped people find churches in many parts of the world where they live, where they previously could not find a

Bible -believing church. And I've also helped people find churches where they are going on vacation, and for family, friends, and loved ones who do not have churches of their own wherever they live in the world.

So send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and put I Need a

Church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today,

Norman D. Young, on his book, Separation of Church and State, The Myth Revisited. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. And we do have an email from Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York.

And Tyler, I have to increase the size of the font of his email so I can read it since I am slowly going blind.

Tyler says, Would you suggest listening to Wall Builders with David Barton?

Is his historical information accurate? Are you familiar with David Barton, Norman?

Yes, I have not studied him carefully. There are some things that I have read that I have to disagree with.

I would say right now I am not a fan of his, but at the same time

I am not going on any campaign to discredit him. Well, thank you, Tyler. Give us your full mailing address because you've also won a free copy of Separation of Church and State, The Myth Revisited.

And I completely forgot to allow you to answer the question from John in Bangor, Maine before our midway break, where he was saying in agreement with me that he did not want public schools having religious influence by faculty to teach students religious things because you have such a multi -religious and multi -cultural situation in our day and age where you will have all kinds of representatives of false religion teaching your children and leading them in prayer.

And he agreed with me that children should have the legal right to pray in school and to have

Bible clubs and things like that and to bring their Bibles with them to school to read.

And of course that would go the same thing for Muslims who want to bring their Koran and what have you.

But he said that Christians should be sending their children to either private

Christian schools or homeschooling them. And you were just about to respond to that when we went to the break.

Yes, I was hoping I'd get a chance to respond because that's a complicated set of conditions that he's talking about.

I too have been a supporter of Christian schools all my life.

My parents had all six of us children enrolled in the Christian school back there in northwest

Iowa. But there are tremendous expenses to many parents and a lot of parents cannot afford the tuition that is required at these private

Christian schools. So what do they do? Some of them will turn to homeschooling and some of them are very good at homeschooling.

One of our children has all of their family homeschooled and those kids are very well educated.

But not every parent is capable or is qualified to be a homeschool teacher.

So then what a lot of parents have to do is to put their children in a local public school.

And that again becomes somewhat complicated. We had to do that for two years while I was finishing up my doctorate.

And there were no Christian schools around and we were not capable of homeschooling because my wife was a nurse and I'm studying full time.

So I made a commitment. We had three children at the time.

I'm going to be home every night for supper. And at supper time we're going to talk about what you learned at school today.

I as a father have a tremendous responsibility for what my children learn.

Two of the three children had teachers who were committed Christians.

They were church members. They taught in their classrooms the way we would want them to teach.

They let their Christian position, their Christian faith shine through.

And nobody could stop them from doing that. But the third child, our oldest one, had a teacher who almost every day of the week was pushing evolutionary gobbledygook on the kids.

And I would ask the children at supper time, okay, what did you learn in school today? And our oldest son would say, well, so and so was telling us that the earth is 14 billion years old.

Or he would tell us that we were all descendants of monkeys. So what

I would do as a father then is say, why don't you come back and ask these questions of your teacher tomorrow?

And I would give him good pointed questions to ask. He tried that and he said,

Dad, I'm not really capable of doing that with a teacher. So I went to the office and I talked to the principal of the school and said, look,

I really object to what this person is teaching our children. And the principal said, sorry, he's going to do whatever he wants because I support him.

I happen to believe like he does. Okay, that meant that I had to really work at training my son to become a debater.

Very properly asking questions and questions that this teacher couldn't possibly answer.

Because they make up stuff as they go when they're teaching evolution.

They fabricate stuff. Within about a week, the teacher realized that he was beaten and he started teaching geography, which he was supposed to do.

My point is, we as parents have a tremendous responsibility before God to make sure that our children learn the truth.

Not falsehood, not fabricated nonsense, but God's truth.

That's our job. I hope that helps. Yes, it does.

And thank you, Tyler. Give us your mailing address. Actually, I already said that this was from John in Bangor, Maine.

And I'm sorry, John in Bangor, Maine, who wrote the question before the midway break. Please give us your full mailing address in Bangor, Maine, so that we can ship out to you a free copy of Separation of Church and State, The Myth Revisited.

Actually, we're not going to be shipping it out to you. CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service will be shipping that out to you.

Let's see here. We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania.

And she wants to know, Should churches as institutions be involved with politics, or should that be only the realm of individual

Christians and citizens, rather than the church having an official position on candidates for whom to vote, etc.?

That's a situation where some wisdom is required.

I think that it is incumbent upon our churches to take a very solid, firm stand on matters like abortion.

That is the one thing that divides our Democratic and Republican parties today.

It is so incredibly evil, the way we kill babies by the millions.

The church doesn't have to send its elders out to an abortion clinic and try to arrest them.

That would be totally inappropriate. But I think the church could encourage its members, during their week, to take a stand, to find out which candidates are pro -abortion, pro -life, and make that a very deciding factor in whom you vote for.

There are other issues where you say, Alright, what about gambling?

Well, gambling, according to God's word, is wrong. For a number of reasons.

What about pornography? It's in abundance. There are all kinds of opportunities on the internet, on the television screen, for children, teenagers, adults, to look at pornography.

It's so prevalent. I think the church, in its leadership, has to warn its members to avoid that.

To fight against it. Because that's part of the great war between God and Satan.

We can't stand around and pretend as though we're not involved. The church,

I think, has to be engaged in that spiritual warfare that is so prevalent in our country today.

Now, I was wondering how you would respond to people like those whom

I know personally. I know some folks that are Bible -believing

Christians. They believe that abortion is murder.

They believe that homosexuality is an abomination. And they would even have a conservative lens through which they exegete the scriptures.

And they have a conservative, Bible -believing worldview. They believe in the inerrancy of scripture and so on.

But, some of these people that I know and have met, very often, if not most often, will vote for liberal

Democrats. And their excuse is that,

I believe that the policies in regard to caring for the poor are more reflective of the compassion and love and tenderness of Jesus Christ.

And Republicans do little to nothing to prevent abortion from occurring in this nation anyway.

They're just giving lip service to the conservative, Bible -believing constituency in the various states.

And they never intend to really do anything about that crime of abortion. How do you respond to people like that?

Well, the first thing I would say is, go on the internet and look up the party platform for both the

Democrats and the Republicans. You can get their full platform that they will be espousing and adopting at their conventions this summer.

And just read through those party platforms. And on the basis of that, which of those two is much closer to the scripture?

Right, I have said to some of these folks, even if we were to agree that Republicans have historically been impotent and incompetent when it comes to outlawing infanticide in this country.

And when it comes to same -sex marriage and a whole host of other things.

There's a difference between voting for an incompetent

Republican and voting for a Democrat who gleefully, excitedly, and enthusiastically and zealously supports the murder of children, not only up to the ninth month, but even after they are born, if they are born quote -unquote accidentally during an attempt at an abortion.

So, how do you respond to what I said in regard to my reaction to many of these people?

Well, there are again some strange factors which determine political affiliation.

I did a study on the state of Iowa a long time ago about why certain communities that are heavily churched,

Bible -believing, reformed churches, why those communities vote

Democrat. And the reason was that when the immigrants came across from Europe, the ones who were greeting them at the train station, the ones who were promising them free land were members of the party that was in power.

So they became Democrats just because of the way they were received, and they never thought through the issues.

Their analysis of that party was about skin deep.

You gotta dig deeper. I have relatives, members of my family, that are

Democrats. And we agree not to fight. I can't persuade them, even though I try once in a while.

And some of that is just part of the fabric of our culture.

It's sad, but true. Well, we are going to our final break. It's going to be a lot more brief than the last break.

We'll be back before you know it. So if you have a question for Dr. Norman DeYoung, please send it in as quickly as possible because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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We'll be right back after these messages. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

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Spread the word about firstloveradio .org. And don't forget, folks, immediately following Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, if you stay tuned to the live streaming of First Love Radio, you're going to hear the preaching of Joe Jackowitz, and he is an extraordinary preacher.

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Obviously, that will actually not be live -streaming. It won't be live, but it will be streaming nonetheless.

This show is live -streaming because we are live. But anyway, by the way, folks, a similar subject, or one that hinges on what we are discussing today, will be addressed tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with our guest,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. We're going to be discussing his book, With Liberty and Justice for All, Christian Politics Made Simple.

That's tomorrow here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time. We are now back with Norman D.

Young, and we are discussing the book that he has written, amongst many others,

Separation of Church and State, The Myth Revisited. I do want you to know that a listener who contacted us earlier,

Pete in Youngstown, Ohio, has written us back. He wants to know if you are familiar with the writings of Jerry Bradley, a law professor at Notre Dame, who is an expert on church -state issues, as well as traditional marriage.

No, I am not familiar with him. There are millions of people I have no connection with.

Okay, Pete. Well, thanks for that question, nonetheless. I want you to address...

Chris. Yes, go ahead. May I interject a minute here? Go ahead. We've got a little bit of time left.

I would really want to have lawyers take advantage of this book and the information that's in it, because I think we need to work hard to get school choice for our families so that families can make a choice and not be penalized by being forced to go into public schools where they're not teaching what they should.

But we need lawyers to overcome some of these legal barriers, and one of the things about the

Everson case back in 1947 is that there was no consulting at all of legal precedent.

There are a number of Supreme Court decisions down through the time from early on, right up to 1947, that make it very legitimate for states and federal governments to support

Christian schools and Christian churches. Lawyers need to become informed about that.

They're the ones who are going to have to overturn this terrible decision made back there in 1947.

So I hope that they are listening and that they might try to take advantage of this.

So, sorry about that. Well, that's an excellent point to bring forth, and I hope that many of the lawyers listening, and especially perhaps one that sponsors this program,

Dan Buttafuoco, I hope that he gets a hold of this book as well.

Tell us about the unholy alliance, religion and politics in Virginia.

Oh, I deal with that in the book at quite some length. There was, at the time the

Constitution was being adopted, there was widespread agreement amongst the

New England states and even most of the middle states. But Virginia was a hotbed of opposition.

And it was a real contest between the

Federalists, represented by Washington, Adams, Hamilton and all those, and the

Democrats who were led by Jefferson. And there was just an almost even divide.

The Constitutional Convention needed to have the support of Virginia in order to adopt the

Constitution. And in order to get that, there was tremendous opposition that spread out for almost a year, led by Patrick Henry.

Patrick Henry was a flamboyant orator who was committed to the

Baptist theology and the Baptist position. And he would speak two or three times a day, week after week, condemning the

Constitution, condemning this form of government that the Federalists wanted.

Wow, Patrick Henry. Patrick Henry. Our schools and a lot of people consider him to be a great hero.

And many Christians consider him. Yeah. In fact, there's at least one college I'm aware of that is a conservative

Christian college named after Patrick. Yeah, I won't go into that.

Patrick Henry was violently opposed to the Constitution that we have.

And in order to finally get the right number of votes to approve it in Virginia, the

Federalists offered Governor Randolph a high position in the new government if he would vote with them.

And that surprised the daylights out of the Democrats and the Baptists. But Governor Randolph changed his vote from being opposed to being in favor.

That's why I call this an unholy alliance. There's an awful lot of horse trading going on between these opposing groups in Virginia.

And it came very close when their vote was finally taken. There were, I think, two votes difference, something like 79 to 77.

So that's why I call it the unholy alliance. And let me repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

I'm rapidly running out of time. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

And we have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who asks,

What do you make of the liberal argument against Bible -believing

Christians having influence in our government where they use as evidence that the

Declaration of Independence does not mention God? Well, it mentions the

Creator. But, again, you have to look at the author of the

Declaration. That was basically Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson, as a deist, would acknowledge that there was a

Creator, but he would not ever express allegiance to Jesus Christ or God the

Father or the Holy Spirit. And for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar, I know that deists have been described as those who believe that God is distant and far off and uninvolved in the world that he created, almost like someone who winds up a clock and then sets it aside and leaves it alone.

Yes, that's precisely right. God is a Creator, according to Jefferson, but that's it.

He made the clock, and now the clock is just running by itself. God is not involved in anything beyond creation.

So, you have to keep that in mind. And, thankfully,

Thomas Jefferson was in France the whole time that the Constitution was being formed.

So he had no hand in drafting the Constitution or in the

Ten Amendments. And I'm grateful for that. Well, we are out of time, and I already know that I am very enthusiastic about having you return at some point in the near future to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

You've been a phenomenally informative guest and would love to return frequently.

But let me just make sure that our listeners have your contact information.

First of all, is the best place to get Separation of Church and State, the myth revisited, is the best place on Amazon?

Amazon has them. I use eBooks quite often.

Barnes and Noble has them. And I suspect there should be quite a number of them in print.

Well, actually, I would strongly recommend my listeners going to cvbbs .com or calling them, because if they don't have it in stock, they will order this book for you.

And, of course, since they sponsor the program, I am biased about that. So go to cvbbs .com,

and you can also call between 10 a .m. and 4 .30 p .m. Eastern, 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231, and ask for Separation of Church and State, the myth revisited, by Norman D.

Young. And D. Young is spelled D -E -J -O -N -G.

Right. Correct. Do you have any contact information for yourself that you'd like to share? Well, if people are interested in pursuing this further,

I'm certainly willing to do that. I'm retired. I'm still in good health.

I still love to read and argue and think. If people want to get in touch with me by e -mail, that would probably be the best way.

And that e -mail address is normandj121935 at gmail .com.

And you can also e -mail me, and I can get that e -mail address for you. Well, thank you so much, Dr.

D. Young. I want to thank everybody who listened today. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater