Is Vision Casting Biblical?

You know you hear people say, well, why do you go to that church so I can be fed? You don't come here so you can be fed. You come here to help me and tap and fulfill his vision. That is if God called you here You hadn't been called so you can be fed.

The word now if you get fed in the midst of it, that's good. But you've been called to find your part in Bringing this vision to pass in the earth. That's why you've been called to the church. So if you just kind of sitting around being fed, but not understanding that you have a part to play In this vision coming to pass.

That's why God called you when God calls a person to a church. You're called to that church to help that pastor fulfill that vision.

The Unbiblical Logic of Vision Casting

Now you see Creflo dollar that's creflo dollar famous word faith teacher. He just comes out and says it he just comes out and says. What your pastor might be thinking? You're not here to be fed. You're here to fulfill my vision for this church.

Creflo dollar will come out and saying as people will clap and they nod their heads and they say yeah. We're part of the vision. Vision has well, I dare say it's a word that has more or less taken over many congregations nowadays.

And what is. What is perpetrated if I could use that word and I think it's safe to say what's been perpetrated in the name of the pastor's vision the church's vision our vision the mission's vision, whatever it may be in the church is really reaching disastrous Proportions and you don't have to go to a word-faith Church to hear your pastor talk about his vision or the congregations vision and your place in fulfilling that vision.

Greetings and welcome to issues etc. We're coming to you live from the studios of Lutheran Public Radio in Collinsville, Illinois. I'm Todd Wilkin. Thanks for tuning us in. Chris Roseboro will be our guest for the first hour of the program on this Tuesday afternoon.

It's the 19th of June. We're gonna be talking about vision casting in the church. It used to be vision casting was something that the pagans and the Heathens did. Now apparently the Christians are doing it to.

Chris Roseboro will be our guest in the second hour of the program. We'll spend that hour Responding to our earlier interview on rapture theology with dr. Thomas ice. Dr. Kim Riddle Barger will be our guest.

He's authored several books including a case for our millennialism. Understanding the end times that's our two of issues etc. Now you can join us for the next two hours. 1 8 7 7 6 2 3 6 9 4 3 8 7 7 6 2 3 6 9 4 3.

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Facebook .com slash issues etc. Facebook .com slash issues ETC. Chris Roseboro is a regular guest. He has a degree in religious studies from Concordia University, California. He's host of the daily internet talk show called fighting for the faith.

Chris, welcome back. Thanks for having me back Todd. You heard Creflo dollared there. He says to his people. You're not here to be fed by God's Word. If that happens, it's okay. But you're here to fulfill the vision.

What does he mean? What's your reaction?

Oh, my reaction is is that that's nowhere taught in Scripture and nowhere in the Bible. Do we hear in regards to the pastoral office that we're to expect that pastors are to receive? Visions from God as to what they're supposed to be doing in the church.

He's basically doing something that's far above his pay grade but the the other piece of that is is that what he's doing is taking a business concept and attaching to it a prophetic Interpretation in the business world that we have mission and vision statements for instance.

See a fortune 500 companies you can go on to the website and you can find the most successful companies out there have mission and vision statements, these are basically Statements that tell us the direction of a company what they're supposed to be focusing on.

So that they don't get off track and wander off of what they're good at or outside of their core competencies. But as this has got brought into the into the church. It's taken on a prophetic overtone assignment an undertone at the overt prophetic overtone.

That God is the one who's given him vision to individual congregations. And you know that they're supposed to then do specific things or do church a particular way in a particular cultural setting. And and that you can't question this then because it comes all the way from the man upstairs.

Now you said it's nowhere in the Bible, but I've often heard I mean dozens of times even in our own Lutheran circles. Pastors say and justify their vision casting with Proverbs 29 18 without vision the people perish.

Well, I find it very disconcerting and very disappointing that a Lutheran pastor with an education from Concordia Fort Wayne or Concordia st. Louis would engage in such a roughshod treatment of the biblical text.

I mean I have a degree in religious studies and biblical languages and I can tell you most clearly that when somebody just quotes Half of a sentence or a third of a verse they're not correctly quoting it in context.

Proverbs 29 18. By the way, the whole thing from the English Standard Version says where there is no prophetic vision the people cast off restraint. But blessed is he who keeps the law of the Lord. When you put the rest of the verse To that statement is clear What's being talked about.

There is not vision casting or that they were to expect a pastor receiving a prophetic vision instead. It's talking about the prophetic vision of God's Word. That's why the Torah is mentioned there at the end part of that of that verse.

Real quickly. Someone's gonna say well, there's a difference Chris between Creflo Dollar who does say he literally receives visions private revelations From God because he's word-faith and that's part of that kind of mixed-up theology and my local pastor.

I even read a bio of one. They just elected one district president in the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod whose bio In his former congregation was he was senior pastor in charge of fashioning and casting visions.

In that particular case, I would say that Qualitatively, there is no difference because when you're casting vision You're basically claiming the authority of God behind your vision and you are protecting that vision as if it comes from God himself.

It's a form of enthusiasm. So in that case that just because the pastor or leader in question Doesn't have the credentials of Creflo Dollar as a word-of-faith Televangelist doesn't mean that he doesn't have something in common with him and the two things that they would have in common are Enthusiasm the they're they're basically shrammar.

I who are believing that they are receiving direct revelation from God. Or that God has somehow put his imprimatur and stamp of approval upon their vision. And therefore it is to be guarded and protected as you know.

Well, basically a prophetic vision from God.

How Proverbs 29:18 Gets Misused

We're going to hear a lot in the course of our conversation here from a man named Jim Sutherland of Church Transitions, Inc. What do we need to know about Sutherland?

Well, it's Dan Sutherland. Dan Sutherland is he's one of the guys who is the go-to guy in the purpose-driven community. This would be with the Rick Warren's organization and for more than a decade Church Transitions Inc and Dan Sutherland has been the guy who's been teaching the seminar.

That is used to take pastors from having traditional congregations to having purpose-driven congregations. In fact, Dan's written a book called transitioning that was published by Zondervan and And was had the forward done by Rick Warren himself.

So in community as far as you know taking somebody from a trend.

So let's hear how Dan Sutherland of Church Transitions Inc Inc defines vision.

Here's a definition of vision. Vision is a picture of what God wants to do. That's all it is. It's a picture of what God wants to do.

Okay, how do you respond Chris? Well, that's how they define it. It's a picture of what God wants to do now in the purpose-driven setting. It's also important to note that they have taken the the mystic enthusiastic teaching of Henry Blackaby.

He's a kind of a Baptist mystic. That this idea that you've got to go and find what God is doing in the world and join him and that God is not Going to bless your plans. You have to find what God is already blessing and join him in that that's a key component of this and so these people literally believe that God has a picture of what he wants to do at your church and that he's ready to give it to you, but You've got to make yourself worthy to receive this vision.

You know and salvation might be by grace alone through faith alone by Christ's work alone. But receiving a vision that's all based on law and works and how far along you are in the sanctification.

Trail. Is that the same Henry Blackaby of experiencing?

God is the exact same Henry Blackaby and the experiencing God curriculum is a core component And major foundation theologically of the whole concept of vision casting. Here's Dan Sutherland again.

He's asking people what percentage of the vision God wants you to see. I'd like you to do this.

I'd like you to answer this question for me. Rate yourself from one to a hundred on. How much you're praying for the vision and the future of your church? Not the present. Not the problems now. How much are you praying for the vision and the future of your church?

If you're so busy with the present that you're not doing that at all. Then that's one if it's keeping you up late at night and getting staying on your mind all through the day. That's a hundred. Rate yourself.

If you're embarrassed by your number add 50 to it. Write a number down. Would you want everybody here to write a number down. If you don't like your number write it in code. Your neighbor doesn't have to See it.

Write a number down. Everybody got a number now, would you do this. Add a percentage sign after your number. A Percentage sign and here's the wild statement. That's the maximum percent of what God wants to do.

You're ever gonna see. If I pray at a 25 level then God can only do 25 of what he wants to do in my life in my church.

All right, Chris, you got a minute. What the heck is Sutherland saying?

Basically, it's it's all up to you. God wants to give you the vision. But if you're only 25 committed then God's hands are tied. He can only give you 25 of the vision. So the more obedient you are intent of the vision that God's perfect in the future.

He'll give to you. Where are they getting this stuff about 30 seconds? They're making it up. These are the delusions and teachings of men. This is nowhere taught in Scripture.

Chris Roseboro is our guest. We're talking about vision casting in the church. Maybe your pastor has spent some time casting his vision. Maybe some of what you're hearing here from Creflo Dollar or Dan Sutherland.

We'll hear a little bit from Mark Driscoll a little bit later. Maybe it sounds sadly familiar to you. Keep listening Chris Roseboro guests. We're talking about vision casting in the church on this Tuesday afternoon.

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The Purpose-Driven Roots of Vision Casting

Number two. We are united under the visionary now. The visionary here is Eric the crossing is built on the vision that God gave pastor Eric. And we will aggressively defend that vision now, what does that mean aggressively defend that that means that we do church.

The way he wants us to do it and me as a campus pastor I can't go up to Zimmerman and decide that I'm gonna preach on Sunday because that's not the vision that we have for this church. That God gave to Eric and we defend that when people go.

Well, maybe we should do it this way and we're like no. No, no, no. No, no. No, you don't understand. God gave Eric this vision. We do it this way because we don't want to argue with God. Basically. We don't want to be like, you know, Eric's not God.

We're not saying Eric's God. He's not God. I know he's got a vision from God and we have decided with our lives that we're gonna follow that vision and we're gonna stick to that and if we ever just decide that we don't want to be a part of that vision then we Can go find a church and serve somewhere else and that's that's okay.

We're not telling anybody that they have to unite under this vision that that Eric got from God. You can do whatever you want, but we think that it's a really cool vision. We're on board with it and we're gonna defend it and we're gonna stick to it.

That's pastor Jason Keech of the Crossing Church in Elk River, Minnesota. Articulating what it means to live under one man's vision. We're talking about vision casting in the church. Chris Roseboro is our guest.

I'm Todd Wilkin. This is issues, etc. Chris that sounds it's well on the one hand. It sounds like if you want to be a member of this church You are going to do what that guy says because he says he's getting what he says from God.

Yeah, that's exactly right. You'll notice that as soon as somebody says that they've received a vision from God He has the authority of God behind him and to question the vision to challenge Questions or cast doubt on the vision is to cast doubt doubt on God himself.

I mean you might as well have said that the Word of the Lord came to the Prophet Eric Dykstra or to the Prophet Mark Driscoll or whoever these vision cast and and therefore that I mean you gotta tack this on to the end of your Bible now.

We're getting direct revelation According to these guys as to what God wants to do and if you challenge that you're challenging God himself. You've become an enemy of God. When you question these visions that these guys are claiming to be to be receiving in practice.

I mean he says I can't decide to preach on Sunday because that's not part of the vision. It sounds like the vision is not just some kind of amorphous. We're gonna, you know be the best church ever and we're going to worship dynamically and we're going to reach out to the community.

It sounds like it's pretty darn specific. God decides who preaches on Sunday.

Well, yeah, a lot of it's written down and a lot of it's highly focused and these these seeker driven pastors are Really coached to you know to make that vision as sharp as a number two pencil can possibly be but at the same time.

You know it there's always a trump card there, you know. Somebody challenges something you can say that's not part of the vision and so you get all the stuff that gets lumped into it. And therefore you can't challenge God, but the other the other piece of it.

You're right. It's very specific. There's a lot of details in it and a lot of times the the vision will be something along the lines of we've received a vision From God to do church for the unchurched.

According to the cultural and pop culture mores and preferences of people living in Austin, Texas and so, you know, we're going to do cowboy church or something like that. And so, you know, it's always in a cultural setting and so there's you know.

This is you know, there's community mores that kind of get thrown into all of this. And so there's very specific things that get thrown into the mix there. But that's it. It's all part and parcel of the seeker driven approach wing the church.

Vision Casting as a Claim to Divine Authority

Now again what we heard there from Jason Keech of Crossing Church was rather overtly stated. I mean he just flat-out said. This other pastor here has got a vision from God. We don't question God. Therefore we don't question that pastor's vision if I don't like it.

You can go someplace else. It's not often stated in such stark terms and yet. Isn't exactly the same kind of vision casting mentality at work in a lot of congregations where the pastor didn't have the guts to say Follow my vision or else.

Yeah.

That you're exactly right. It's the same mentality that but whether or not the pastor Has the chutzpah to to, you know to hang it all out there the way a lot of the seeker driven guys are. I think it might depend on on the biblical literacy of the people that they're that they're teaching.

For instance Pastor Jason has never been to seminary. I mean he was just kind of ordinary Joe who was promoted to associate pastor. But he's never been to seminary. So it's a little bit easier. But when you got a congregation or you're in a in a denomination Where you've got a lot of people who really know their stuff biblically to talk this way in that setting is to commit suicide.

You're going to find yourself meeting a lot of stiff biblical opposition. So what they'll do is they'll save this kind of talk for behind closed doors. And not and not be so overt to be it Just really depends on how biblically astute your congregation or your your your setting is.

Let's listen to what Dan Sutherland had to say about.

Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby. Now Henry Blackaby has taught me more about this idea than anyone else. How many of you've done Blackaby study experiencing God? Killer stuff. Killer killer stuff. Y 'all to do it every three or four years just to just to be reminded.

Tell me the principle behind Blackaby study. Those of you that have done it. What is it? Yeah, see what God's doing in the world and joining and joining. Now here's what we do in our churches. We say hey God, I've got a great plan for my church.

Will you come down here and bless my plan?

No.

God has never done that. God will never do that. God stands instead way over here and says well, I'm already blessing these things. Why don't you? Join me and what I'm already blessing. Oh Lord, you don't understand my plans original.

My plans. You need my plans mine. Once you come bless my plan, here's a key key truth. It took me 20 years to grab this. God never joins us. Never He invites us to join him.

Join What God Is Already Blessing

Okay, that's Dan Sutherland talking about how God the God vision thing works here, Chris.

I.

Find his statement the height of irony because he's essentially When he says well, I've got an idea. No God has an idea by claiming that he's got God's idea. How is he sure that it isn't just his idea that he thinks is God's idea because there's no objective way of measuring this whatsoever.

Well, they would point to growth in the secret driven way of thinking is the assumption is this every living thing? Grows and Changes. So if your church is truly alive Then it's going to grow numerically and it will change it will not stay the same and so and say.

With that assumption I can now go and look along, you know out there in the church landscape and see what God is blessing based upon. What's growing and what's changing. And wouldn't you know it the secret driven church model, you know doing church for the unchurched and small groups and all.

And you know being pragmatic in your preaching and teaching and all that's growing and it's changed changing. Therefore that must be alive. That must be what God is blessing. So God's not going to bless my plans.

So I need to dump all of that and I need to join that movement of God where God is already at work.

Where is the Bible in all of this?

Well, you'll notice that it's supplemented the Bible is there kind of but you know we've got a direct word of not from God from a vision and. And we've got this Henry Blackaby stuff says I can experience God by finding what he's doing in the world and joining him.

So we've got the Bible and it's Bible and direct revelation Bible and vision from God and so they would say listen. We're following what God has commanded us to do but it's not found in the scripture.

It's found in the vision that came down from God to our leader.

There's also a dark side to this. Let's listen to what Dan Southerland has to say to people who oppose the vision.

So I said I'm allowed as the moderator to speak to this and here's what I say, I'm not going back. God's given us a new vision to do church for the unchurched and I'm not going back now. You men can vote to take the church back.

And if you vote, yes, we want the church to go back to the way we used to do it. I will resign tonight. The other two pastors will resign in the morning. We'll go across the street to the empty field rent a tent put it up and we'll do church for the unchurched next week.

Right here in Fort Lauderdale because that's what God has called us to do. You guys can vote. However you want. But I've got to do this.

What's Sutherland saying there Chris? I've got a vision from God. I have to obey God. It's not in the Bible I got it directly from him. And if you oppose the vision you're opposing God, but I'm under orders from God himself from the vision I received therefore I've got to be obedient to it.

And if you're if you're opposing me, you're being disobedient to God.

So.

His vision. In this case, it would be Dan Sutherland telling the story. His vision trumps anything anyone in that congregation would think or believe or.

Read in the Bible, that's absolutely correct. And. The way these guys in practice work that out is that they exercise in the truest sense of the word excommunication for Anybody who? Challenges questions the vision because by doing so you're questioning God.

And so now we've got a new Category when it comes to church discipline in in in the biblical sense in unrepentant sin. Even when challenged and called to repentance or those who are teaching doctrine contrary to sound biblical doctrine.

That's what you know. That's what church discipline is reserved for. These guys have a brand new category. The new category is the center of the vision and that results in immediate and swift and merciless excommunication.

Excommunication for Challenging the Vision

Chris Roseboro is our guest. We're talking about vision casting in the church. Your pastor may talk about the vision. It may sound kind and gentle. But this is what is lurking behind it. Make no mistake about it the people who take vision casting seriously.

Who take it to its logical conclusion, this is what you get. It's Tuesday afternoon, June the 19th. They're calling number one. Eight seven seven six two three my ie talk back at issues ETC org or get sent us a tweet at issues ETC.

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The Violent Logic of Rejecting Dissent

We are united under one vision. Elevation is built on the vision God gave Pastor Stephen. We will aggressively defend our unity and that vision.

Just an excerpt from promotional video featuring Elevation Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. It's called elevation code oddly enough. That just sounds creepy to me, I mean I've listened to stuff from the Scientologists and I'm having a hard time Telling the difference.

We're talking about vision casting in the church. Chris Rose, bro is our guest. Am I right to be kind of creeped out by this Chris?

Yeah, you really really should. Because local teaching nowhere in Scripture are we told to expect that pastors are to receive its specific visions from God and that the job of Christ's sheep is to get behind the vision or be Excommunicated.

This I'm I'll be blunt. I think this is a doctrine of demons. I mean, this is flat-out.

It has its origin in the pit of hell. No, I've heard it twice then already in from two different sources in these Actualities that we've played that here's the vision. We're gonna defend it. What's going on there?

Well, that's the idea in a vision casting church. The role of the pastor has changed radically. In fact Rick Moran himself at the pastors comm website a couple of actually like a month and a half two months ago Said this he says you must change the primary role of the pastor from being a minister to being a leader.

Okay, and the idea is this is that in a vision casting? Setup the leadership model completely changes and the idea is is that the pastor then is the visionary leader? He's received the vision from God this picture of what God wants to do.

His job is to cast the vision to his leadership team. He surrounds himself with his own leadership team and the each of the people on the leadership team. Then their job is to organize The people in the congregation underneath them to make that vision into a reality.

So you don't go to church to hear God's Word. You go to church to be organized into a movement. To make the pastor's vision come about and so their loyalty isn't to Christ anymore. Their loyalty is they believe has its origin in Christ.

But and their loyalty it would seem by extension isn't to Scripture because Scripture might disagree with the pastor's vision.

That's correct in fact if it what you find in these types of churches or where this leadership model is employed is Those people who bring up biblical arguments they're immediately attacked with ad hominem arguments themselves will say oh that person's a Pharisee see that person's just a Bible thumping Pharisee and they need to shut up and get busy behind the pastor or get out.

So what you find that over and over again is that those who are bringing biblical objections? They are marginalized viciously attacked and if they don't catch the drift that they're gonna that they're in trouble.

They will be Ejected from these congregations and it's also not uncommon for those who are vociferous in their objection to what's going on to having Restraining orders filed against them, you know things like that.

I mean they are literally Hounded out of these congregations and you cannot under any circumstances Challenge the vision or the the visionary leader.

Here's an analogy the Dan Sutherland offered on how to treat members who don't agree with the pastor's vision.

Now I grew up on the farm anybody else in here grew up on the farm. Anybody. Maybe y 'all can help me. What do you do with a wolf? If you're herding sheep, what do you do with a wolf? Thank you shoot him.

That's the answer. You know what? We try to do. We try to convert the wolf. Oh Nice wolfy. Why are you gnawing on my arm? That's it. Quit I just down on my neck. Yeah quit eating my sheep. If you be a good wolfy, we'll let you stay in our church.

Shoot the dang wolf. Jesus said the Good Shepherd. Lays down his life for the sheep folks. I'm telling you I've worked sheep. I have done the physical work of herding sheep. Any Shepherd worth his salt carries a rifle and shoots the critters that eat his sheep.

Okay.

The Shepherd Who Shoots the Wolf

The creepy list level is I didn't think it'd go creepier than Elevation Church and and Stephen Furtick. But Sutherland passed it by. What's going on?

Well see in the order that this is presented You know, you know You got you kind of have to get the idea Sutherland has already told people how to prepare to receive the vision from God How to define the vision once they receive it how to cast it and now we're to the point of what do you do?

With people who oppose the vision. This is dealing with opposition. And so immediately anybody who opposes the vision Automatically by definition is challenging God. They are expert. They are considered to be in a wolf a wolf and they must be shot.

Notice the violent metaphor there. You got to shoot the sheep and it's weird that he would say that the Good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep because that's A reference to Jesus, but if I'm not mistaken when you shoot a wolf, you're making the wolf lay down its life.

You're not laying down the your life for the sheep so even the biblical metaphor doesn't make any sense, but what what what they're doing is inculcating a culture of ideologues and demagogues, that's what they're creating these visionary leaders are taught and Trained according to Sutherland and others like them.

You don't under any circumstances tolerate any Opposition to the vision that the person who opposes is a wolf. They have to be shot. They have to go. They have to go they have to go so you can't you cannot under any circumstances.

Challenge the vision or the leader. And this. You were not just playing isolated audio from some kook out there. No, and Sutherland sits at the top of a very influential machine in American evangelicalism one that is cranking out material and His word is being taken as as God's truth by many people outside his own circles.

That's correct.

And you Dan Dan teaches this. He's taught this for over a decade all over the country to packed houses of Pastors, these are pastors who are being taught this and so I mean people in the Willow Creek Organization and leadership network and the purpose-driven network all of the churches that are members of that.

This is a standard curriculum for them. Other other books that are included in the genre would be Andy Stanley's book called Visioneering where you know, he teaches similar principles. But he's teaching a different aspect of vision casting.