April 5, 2016 Show with Darío Fernández-Morera on “The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise: Muslims, Christians, and Jews under Islamic Rule in Medieval Spain”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth, listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fifth day of April 2016 and we apologize to all of you who were patiently waiting for Iron Sharpens Iron to actually begin.

We started six minutes late for reasons unknown to us at this point. We could not connect with the station in Texas, leading edge radio network that broadcasts and live streams our program, so thankfully God at the last minute, six minutes after four, got us re-plugged into the station, thankfully.

They can all set their watches back now.

And I'm so glad that we are technically working fine, at least for now, because we have a very, I think, a fascinating subject that we're addressing for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron. Although we've had this subject of Islam addressed many times by various experts in the field and have even had Muslims on the program to debate evangelical Christian scholars, today we have, I think, a fascinating topic which is basically the myth of the Andalusian paradise, Muslims, Christians and Jews under Islamic rule in medieval Spain.

And scholars, journalists and politicians uphold Muslim-ruled medieval Spain, Al-Andalus, as a multicultural paradise, a place where Muslims, Christians and Jews lived in harmony. There's only one problem with this widely accepted account, according to our guest today.

It is a myth. In this groundbreaking book, Northwestern University scholar Dario Fernandez-Morela tells the full story of Islamic Spain. The myth of the Andalusian paradise shines light on hidden features of this medieval culture by drawing on an abundance of primary sources that scholars have ignored, as well as archaeological evidence only recently unearthed.

And our guest today, Dario Fernandez-Morela, is Associate Professor of the Department of Spanish and Portuguese at Northwestern University. A former member of the National Council on the Humanities, he holds a BA from Stanford University, an MA from the University of Pennsylvania, and a PhD from Harvard University.

He has published several books and many articles on cultural, literary, historical and methodological issues in Spain, Latin America and the United States. And it's my great honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron,.

Dario Fernandez-Morela. Well, thank you very much for inviting me to your show. And I'm.

Honored to be here. And I ask of your apologies if I butchered the pronunciation of your name. I think you did pretty well. And in studio with me, as he has been for the last couple of months, is the Reverend Buzz Taylor, who is my co-host today again.

Welcome back to the program,.

Reverend Buzz. Thank you. Good to be here, especially for this topic again. And I'd.

Like to also announce immediately our email address for those of you listening who would like to ask a question of our guest on this issue. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the United States. And we ask that you only remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable because of some pressing need that you have that you do not wish to be identified.

We will honor that request. But if you can provide at least your first name and your location, we would love to have that when you send in your questions. And that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Well, this is an interesting topic.

We have a number of quotes here from people who seem to believe that the Andalusian paradise is not a myth, but in fact is a historic reality, including our president, Barack Obama. Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance.

We see it in the history of Andalusia. And according to Yale University professor Maria Rosa Menocal, the new Islamic polity in Spain not only allowed Jews and Christians to survive, but following Quranic mandate, by and large protected them.

And we have many other instances of these types of quotes, stating the issue of the Andalusian as historical fact. First of all, before we even get into the subject at hand of the book at greater depth, let our listeners know something about your personal background, Dario, where you're from and why you pursued this study of the Andalusian paradise.

Well, the reason I got involved in... Now, are you yourself from Spain or Portugal, or where are you from? I was born in Cuba. Oh,.

Okay. Yes. And I came to this country from... Part of your education was right here in the fine state of Pennsylvania, where this program is being broadcast from. Oh, that's... Why don't.

You let our listeners know something more about this Andalusian paradise that this whole controversy is over? Some of the details of what I just quoted Barack Obama over and the Yale professor, who believed that this is not only something that existed, but should be promoted as basically a reality that the Quran and the religion of Islam innately will produce the cooperation and tolerance of Christians, Jews and Muslims under Islamic rule.

One looks at the chapters of my book, I abundantly quote... I'm sure that some.

Muslims and even some liberals may claim, and it's ironic to me that so many liberals, political liberals and religious liberals, theological liberals, would ever run to the aid of Muslims because under Sharia law, these types of people are usually the first to be executed.

So I'm not understanding the affinity that liberals have with Islam, but you know that many may be claiming, if there are any listening, but I'm sure that eventually, the more your book is being discovered, that there are going to be liberals and Muslims saying that you had some kind of an anti-Islamic or anti-Muslim bias that caused you to even want to write this book.

Is there any of this the case? Did you have some kind of an axe to grind against Islam? Not really. You're just stating what you believe are the facts, the documentable facts of history.

Yeah, my book is about Islam.

Very stark differences between different groups of individuals who identify themselves as Muslim all over the world. There are obviously many peaceful Muslims who believe in peace, but obviously though...

And then within Islam, even then and today... Yes, even though there are and perhaps always have been peace-loving Muslims,.

There can be no denying that a great number, even if you're going to say they are a minority, there are a great number, a frightening, a terrifying number, a terrifying and disturbing percentage of Muslims that are bloodthirsty and that do want to destroy all other religions and those who embrace those religions.

But Reverend Buzz Taylor...

Yes, just trying to think from our... When Chris told me what our subject was going to be, I had never even heard of the Andalusian paradise. And here, you know, we're talking about the myth of it. And of course, some people consider it a fact.

But for our listeners, could you just back up a little bit? And I'm sure I'm not the only one who has no clue what we are talking about.

Yeah, describe this myth, well, this paradise that you would claim and seek to document in your book, a fairly lengthy book, that you would claim is a myth, that you would assert is a myth. Tell us something about this alleged paradise and how even this story got started.

Well, before we get to how the story may have been...

Yes, I have heard him say that.

That, again, is far more...

When are we talking about? When was this supposed to allegedly have existed?

It's supposed to have existed from the century most or last around.

Well, tell us something about the effects of jihad and then explain to our listeners, who may be unfamiliar with exactly what that means, explain to them what jihad is.

Well, I cannot talk men to men. Yes, and as far as I know from quite a number of Christian experts on the subject of Islam,.

Those who are apologists, those who have studied the Quran and the jihad, I mean, the hadith, I'm sorry, many times over and who have publicly debated the top apologists and clerics within Islam, they have come to the conclusion that that is the definition of jihad that goes back to Muhammad and the earliest Muslim sources.

So this is nothing that, according to them anyway, in a very convincing way, these apologists that I know, this was not a development of jihad, this is what the way jihad began. But we're going to be going to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, and we do have several questions, or we have several listeners already who have written questions to you that are waiting to hear those questions asked and answered.

We'll be getting to you as soon as possible after the break. But if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. And don't go away, we're going to be right back with our guest, Dario Fernandez-Morera, and our discussion on the myth of the Andalusian paradise.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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Difference. Welcome back. This is Chris Zarnes, and if you just tuned in to Iron Sharpens Iron,.

Our guest today is Dario Fernandez-Morera, and we are discussing his book, The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise, Muslims, Christians, and Jews Under Islamic Rule in Medieval Spain. By the way, Dario, is it Dario or Dario?

Well, in Spanish, it's Dario. All right. Well, I'll try to pronounce it the way you would like me to pronounce it. Is it Dario?

I don't care. I've been living in this country for many years, so I don't care.

All right. We have several listeners. One of them here is a very prestigious listener, Dr. Tony Costa, who is Professor of Apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Toronto, Canada. He says, We hear occasionally that Jews lived better under Islamic rule than under Christian rule.

In other words, Jews were better treated by Muslims than by Christians. Is this true?

Well, again, I should confine myself. Now we know where the mafia got it. Yes, exactly. It's a form of exposure.

Of course.

Yeah, and of course, this is not the subject that we are addressing, as you already gave a caveat for this, but there is always going to be the comparison between the history of Christianity and the history of Islam, since both contained intolerance and torture and murder and so on.

Yeah, the history of both contains...

Yeah, that's why I was going to say that even though within the history of Christendom, there have been atrocities performed, the question is, are those atrocities or were they innate to the actual religion of Christianity that stems from the teachings of Jesus Christ?

And of course, you just gave a resounding no to that.

And there is nothing of the sort in the basic documents of Christianity.

It's just when sinful men who identify themselves as Christians go beyond what the scriptures have taught, as the Roman Catholic Church did with the Inquisition and so on, that we can find things like this, and even some of the atrocities that the Majesty...

In which Inquisition, by the way, you can go online. Check that out online.

Fascinating stuff. Dr. Costa also asks, Is the Golden Age a conjectural myth made up by Islamic and naive Western scholars, and if so, why? Why did this myth come about and who actually cultivated and created and spread this myth?

Well, that question deserves a booking itself. But I'm not sure I'm going to... And research... Well, Dr. Costa, you're going to be receiving, as our way of saying thanks to you for writing.

In to the program of the question, you're receiving a free copy of the myth of the Andalusian paradise, Muslims, Christians and Jews under Islamic rule in medieval Spain by our guest Fernandes Moreira.

Chuck, I wish I could autograph it.

Wow, well, maybe next time. I would love to have you back and you could autograph these. And this is also compliments of the Intercollegiate Studies Institute who published the book. And ironically, they have the same initials that my program has, ISI, which I very frequently abbreviate Iron Sharpens Iron, ISI.

And I'm glad you don't have that. That's right.

In fact, somebody was just recently escorted off a plane, because they were on their cell phone, and they had some kind of communication with somebody from ISI. And it had to do with a Christian fraternal group named Iron Sharpens Iron.

So the whole thing was a horrific mistake. But I just want to let Dr. Costa know that we usually do not ship the free books outside of the US due to your prestigious position at the University of Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm going to make an exception and make sure that you get this free book mailed to you. And thank you so much for contributing to today's program. And this is where we're going to take another break. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back with our guest Darío Fernández-Morera and our discussion of his book, The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise. Don't go away. We will be right back.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron is Darío Fernández Barrera. And he is the author of The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise, Muslims, Christians, and Jews Under Islamic Rule in Medieval Spain.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with your own questions, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And by the way, I'd like to let our listeners know that there is an Andalusian paradise, that is no myth. It's about two blocks away from where I'm sitting. It's a restaurant that's called Andalusia, and it has the most remarkable Spanish and Moroccan cuisine on North Hanover Street in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

No, it's a wonderful restaurant. And they don't even pay me to say this right now. They're not one of my sponsors. They're not even aware that I'm plugging them for free right now.

You'll talk about food anytime.

It's a great restaurant. I had to plug them. We do have another listener, a very interesting individual, who is a Muslim convert to Christianity in Detroit, Michigan, C .L. Edwards. I'm not sure what C .L. stands for, but C .L. asks the question, what would it have been like, or what would have been the status of black Africans in Andalusia under Muslim control?

I don't know if you're aware of that, but do you have an answer to that question?

Yes, I did.

So the contemporary black individual, or even going back, you know, decades, when it was popular in this country to identify Christianity as a white man's religion and Islam as a black man's religion, or at least much more favorable to those of the black race, this is really a myth, isn't it?

Oh, it's nonsense. Even though I don't go in...

Brother Edwards in Detroit, Illinois, I'm sorry, Detroit, Michigan, I'm looking at two different questions here. Brother Edwards from Detroit, Michigan, if you would like a free copy of this book for sending in a question, the free copy of The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise, please give us your full mailing address.

We will not put that on the air, obviously. And but we will ship you out a free copy of the book. So we would love to hear back from you with your mailing address if you'd like a free copy of this book, compliments of the publishers.

And we do have, this is where I got the confusion of Illinois here, we do have a listener in Chicago, Illinois, Sam, who says if the goal of the guest is to show that Jews and Christians were mistreated and abused by Muslims in Spain, then my objection would be why do you pass judgment on Islam by looking to how some Muslims acted towards other groups when the honest thing to do is judge the actions of these Muslims in light of the Quran and Sunnah in order to see if they were acting in accord with their own sacred texts.

And the Quran is quite clear in texts such as Quran 2, 256, 68 through 9, and 109, 1 through 6, that Muslims cannot impose their faith on others, but must tolerate them and seek to live in peace with them.

After all, you wouldn't condemn the Christian faith because of the atrocities which so-called Christians committed in the Crusades, Inquisition, or even against Native American Indians, would you? Well, you addressed some of this already.

Do you have anything further to add in response to Sam?

Yes, that's described.

By the way, I forgot to mention, Sam, I will also be shipping you a free copy of The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise, Muslims, Christians, and Jews Under Islamic Rule in Medieval Spain by our guest today, compliments of the Intercollegiate Studies Institute in Wilmington, Delaware, who have published this monumental work here.

And so thank you very much, Sam, for your insightful question. And just out of curiosity, have you gotten any negative feedback from the more liberal community associated with Harvard, your alma mater, and other places, and Muslims in general across the globe who have heard about this book?

Well, the book is...

If you wait patiently, though.

Right, but, you know, it would not be...

This undertaking that has gone into the creation, the writing of this book, how long did it take you to write this book? Because this is a very thoroughly documented book you have here.

Well, you know, in my profession, what you do is you do your teaching and you do your research, and sometimes you do research. Do you have a listener in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, CJ, who wants to know,.

Have you persuaded any of those who opposed your thesis after they have read your work?

In the past month, of course.

So that's my persuasive gift.

Well, obviously you've been speaking about this somewhere, though, right in the classroom or somewhere else before that actually came out in print. Or have you kept this a secret until it came out in print, your views, your thesis?

No, I'm asking you, was this something that you kept secret, your views or your thesis, until the publishing of the work?

No, because I have already pulled articles, I've offered any concept.

But you haven't, to your knowledge, persuaded any of your opponents either?

I have not found that some opponents have written to me saying, look, you know, I have this view to change my views. I haven't heard that either. So maybe there is...

By the way, CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, you're also getting a free copy of The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise, compliments of the publishers. Thank you for writing in today. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, to your knowledge, has there ever been a tolerant, peace-loving paradise where those of different religions ever lived under Islamic rule?

Again, I'm not an expert.

Yes, and even our wonderful allies in Saudi Arabia, who are supposed to be officially very opposed to ISIS and the terrorism happening globally, they execute people.

Yeah, again, I have not done as much as you. No. Oh, yes.

Yeah, in fact, I think that we saw our President George W. Bush walking hand in hand with their leader back when he was in office through the gardens of the White House.

That's true. That's true. But yeah, we don't say anything bad about...

And you are getting a free copy of the book as well. Thank you for writing in. And we do have an anonymous listener in the Bronx, New York, who says, don't you think that it is an unfortunate reality that Muslim dictators, who are far less fundamental than some of the other sects, perhaps are Muslim culturally and by name only, even though they are brutal and often have committed atrocities against other Muslims, isn't it true that unfortunately they are necessary in this day and age to keep the peace and maintain a less catastrophic and explosive climate in the Middle East where they are?

Does that question make sense to you?

Yes, but we've tried it with Gaddafi in the third... I'm sorry, I just couldn't...

That's quite all right. Our anonymous listener, if you provide us with your mailing address, and of course I will keep your anonymity intact, I'm not going to tell our listeners who you are, but our anonymous listener in the Bronx, if you email me your full mailing address, you also qualify, you're the last person actually that we have enough books for, you will receive The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise, the book by our guest today, Darío Fernández-Morera, compliments of the publishers, so thank you for writing in.

We're going to be going to our final break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air as well, we would love to hear from you. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Don't go away, we're going to be right back with our guest, Darío Fernández-Morera, right after these messages.

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See the Long Island Galleries display ad at ironsharpensironradio .com. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you've just joined us for the last 90 minutes, we've been interviewing Darío Fernández Morera about his book, The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise, Muslims, Christians, and Jews Under Islamic Rule in Medieval Spain.

Before we return to our guest and our interview for the remaining half hour, I just wanted to let you know that on Thursday, April 28th, from 11 a .m. to 3 p .m., Iron Sharpens Iron will be having our spring pastor's luncheon at the beautiful, historic, and newly renovated Thornwald Mansion of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Our guest speaker, providentially, is David Wood, who is a Christian apologist specializing in Islamic studies. He has debated Muslims all over the globe, prominent Muslim clerics and apologists. And he is the host of the Jesus or Muhammad television program that airs on the Trinity Channel television network.

And that is not to be confused with the Trinity Broadcasting Network, which I am personally very opposed to. But the Trinity Channel is where you can see David's television program. He has been a guest many times on Iron Sharpens Iron, and he will be speaking on separating facts from fiction in regard to Islam.

And we have room for about 30 pastors left. So if you would like to be a part of this free event, where, first of all, it's absolutely free of charge from beginning to end, you'll get a free delicious gourmet lunch provided by Spoons Cafe of Carlisle.

You'll get probably $400 worth of free books that have been donated from Christian publishers all over the United States. You're going to be getting basically a shopping bag filled with quite a large number of free books that have been purposely selected for pastors.

And you're going to hear, as I said, the message from David Wood, an apologist who actually was an atheist convert to Christianity. But if you'd like to be a part of this, you have to be, number one, you have to be a man in leadership.

And if you would like to travel to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, from no matter where you are, or if you live near that area or know someone who is in leadership near there, please have them email me at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

And also, PNR Publishing, Presbyterian and Reform Publishing, they wanted me to announce to you the Faithful Shepherd Conference, May 9th through 11th at Harvey Cedars in New Jersey. And that is featuring two speakers, both of whom I have had on this program in the past, Dan Doriani and David Powlison.

And if you'd like more information about that, go to AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org, and click on Events at the top of the screen. That's Events, after going to AllianceNet .org. And we thank PNR Publishing for providing free books for our pastors' luncheon, along with many other publishers across this nation.

And we thank you for viewing Iron, Sharp, and Zion as a worthy entity to promote your businesses and ministries. But going back to our discussion, one of the things that is constantly being hammered to us in this day and age, as you know, and you may have been on the receiving end of this, is that any discussion like this comes from some sort of hate or bigotry.

Is there any truth in that matter? Obviously, a person who's hateful or bigoted might not admit it, but how do you respond to that kind of an accusation, Dario?

Oh, yes, you are going to get an MP3 of this broadcast sometime, God willing, within the.

Next 24 to 48 hours.

Oh, I would love for you to do that.

And I really appreciate you being on, it's been a pleasure. We do have an anonymous listener who asks, do you think that Americans should have any realistic fear of cities or states within our own nation coming under Sharia law, where there are a high population of Muslim citizens?

Well, again, that is the kind of question...

What can you tell us, if anything, about the current climate of Spain after this very turbulent history? It seems interesting that where there has been a lot of religious persecution in Europe, and perhaps even you could point to even places like here in the United States, like Massachusetts, where at some point in our history there has been intolerance and persecution of those of other religions, where today it seems that those areas where that has existed, there seems to be such a fear of religion that they have become practically atheistic, if not ideologically atheist.

At least in practice, there seems to be a burn-over district or burnt-out district everywhere in the globe where you had a history of intolerance and brutality and torture and murder in the name of Christianity or Islam.

What can you tell us about Spain and why do you think it's that way today?

Well, I'm not sure if I understand it.

Yes.

Spain.

Yes.

Regarding what?

Basically, religion in general.

Religion in general, it has declined. Now, forgive me if I'm mispronouncing this, but what can you tell us about the chapter of your book,.