Covenant Theology pt 5

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November 7, 2024

Join us for this final installment on Covenant Theology, specifically discussing eschatology.

00:09: Cling to the cross then put both arms around it Hold to the crucified and never let him go
00:17: Come afresh to the cross at this moment and rest there now and forever
00:23: Then with the power of God resting upon you go forth and preach the cross
00:40: Welcome to the labors podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight Tonight will probably be our last episode in this series
00:49: Looking at covenant theology covenant theology part 5 stick with us Welcome to the laborers podcast, which is a part of the truth in love network
00:59: Join us as together. We strive to grow up together in all things into Christ subscribe and follow the truth and love network on Facebook YouTube rumble
01:11: Spotify and iTunes now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast
01:22: Welcome back. Just to let everybody know the comment line is now open Let us know that you're watching say hello ask a question join in the conversation.
01:30: We would love to hear from you We've got Troy J Josh big
01:36: John and Tyler. What's up guys? Good Good good.
01:43: Good. So let's jump right in If you're looking at your sheet, it is question number eight and So we are we've been looking at different things as it as it relates to covenant theology and this question
02:00: Takes us to eschatology and I'm curious you you're all thoughts on how covenant theology
02:07: Let me just read the question as it stands. What are the distinctions in eschatology? in times and the fulfillment of God's promises in Presbyterian covenant theology or formatters coming theology a new covenant theology
02:22: And of course we've been talking about dispensationalism too in this
02:29: But how do we how do we view eschatology does covenant theology even Help us to understand eschatology
02:39: Yes Eschatology is Not a disconnected concept and sometimes we tend to put put it in a box on its own that what we believe about the end of times is like the last chapter of a systematic theology book, but ideally
02:57: Eschatology is interwoven with several other core doctrines of Christianity That's not just what we believe about the end
03:04: It is what we believe God is is what we believe God is doing what he's building now and what he's going to continue to do until his appointed time
03:12: It's ultimately eschatology flows out of what we believe about the church About what we view about the gospel the kingdom of God.
03:20: These are all Interwoven concepts that it's more like it's more like a sweater with the different threads than it is a singular isolated concept
03:35: Anybody else that you study covenant theology and eschatology now has covenant theology shape your eschatology
03:45: I'll go ahead and say that it should and that it a lot of times don't and Your your covenant theology should shape the way that you see your eschatology, right?
04:03: Like you should be using the same hermeneutic Your your same Bible How you make sense of what the
04:12: Bible says you're you're you're interpreting home at hermeneutic to Establish both your covenant theology along with your eschatology
04:23: Sometimes it doesn't necessarily happen that way but You know of if you're being consistent in the way that you're interpreting the
04:34: Bible it will Deliver both your eschatology along with your covenant theology.
04:40: It'll kind of all be founded together Yeah, Troy said something that I was thinking about and it was basically the idea that if you
04:53: Understand if you have a certain hermeneutical Perspective for how all of scripture plays out and what is
05:03: God doing throughout scripture then inevitably you should have the same hermeneutic or at least a very similar one that leads you to What ultimately
05:14: God will do and so? While there can be differences in eschatology.
05:21: I do think that your covenant theology Should be one of the one of the main driving forces behind that right?
05:29: like you can't you can't just do eschatology in a vacuum and Sort of try to build an eschatology because oh, you know, it's like a buffet this this looks good
05:39: So I'll take this this doesn't still look so good. So I'll leave that No, you you kind of have to be
05:45: I mean if you're if you're doing that, you're not really being well You're not being consistent and honestly you're treating
05:51: The Word of God as just something that you prefer right versus not prefer and so we're supposed to take all of what
06:00: God is telling us and Trust him right now We might misinterpret that in times.
06:07: That's why we have different eschatological views and different hermeneutics and things like that. But If you take the
06:13: Word of God seriously, you will be consistent in that area If you don't then you will just pick and choose right just kind of kind of like some people do with Well, you know
06:24: God's law here sounds good. But this part over here about like denying myself taking the cross
06:30: I don't like that Saving me that sounds great.
06:35: So I'll take that like that's not taking the Word of God seriously, and it's the same thing with our hermeneutic if you have a covenantal hermeneutic and your eschatology
06:46: Let me ask let me ask you as a prequel question to the another question that I want to ask
06:57: So how many of you would say that we are? Currently in the church age and most people are familiar with that language when it comes to eschatology
07:07: Would you say that we're in the church age? Are we differentiating between the church age and the millennial reign?
07:18: Do you? Okay Let me ask let me ask a question yes a
07:24: Clarifying question. Yes. Are we talking about the church age as? Dispensationalism defines the church age.
07:33: I think that's how most people are familiar with the term so if you want to make that distinction between a
07:41: Dispensational view of church age and then how you would be the church age if you use that terminology Okay, so I would say
07:48: We are in the fulfillment of The church The fulfillment of God's people which is the church
07:59: Hopefully that makes sense so Let's see, how do
08:05: I do this without getting in trouble God had a plan and it wasn't a plan
08:12: B right, it wasn't a Well, I want to save my people
08:17: Israel But since they rejected the Messiah that I sent to them Let me go to the
08:24: Gentiles and out then I'll establish a second people for myself Which I will call the church
08:31: That's not what the Bible teaches Now some Christians believe that and that's okay.
08:38: You have a right to be wrong. No problem with that. We're still we're still brothers in Christ But that if you're really consistent with God's overarching plan of redemption and of having a people for himself
08:54: You can't really stick with that for very long Especially when the New Testament so clearly interprets a lot of Old Testament prophecies for us right, so When you read things like first Peter 2 9 and 10 which talks about how you are you are a
09:15: People right like we are people you're a royal priesthood a holy nation, right once you were not a people, but now you're
09:22: God's people Right and you read that and the audience is both Jewish and Gentile you say well, wait a minute
09:29: What's going on there or like Ephesians? Ephesians 3 6 if somebody would look that up real quick exact.
09:36: I know it's not 3 6 Yeah, but I know it talks about this for some reason. I can't remember exactly what it says
09:43: But while you look that up, I'll I'll cite the latest three 28 and 29 which says
09:51: That there's neither Jew nor Gentile male or female, etc. Right? It says we are all one in Christ Jesus and then
09:58: Verse 29 is key. It says and if you're if you are Christ you are
10:03: Abraham's offspring Heirs according to promise and so it clearly lays out the fact that like God's people are
10:12: Jewish Jewish people and Gentile people who have believed in Christ go ahead Tyler read
10:17: Ephesians Ephesians 3 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs and at the same body and partakers of his promise in Christ By the gospel, there you go.
10:25: So, you know, I mean there's a lot more than we can look at But in terms of Answering the question.
10:33: Are we in the church age? I would say we are in the age of the fulfillment of God's people and God is bringing his people to himself building the church
10:46: Which is his people If I can jump in real quick just to kind of Clean some things up with dispensationalism as far as if they have
11:06: And this this will be a good a good talking point to understand even where we're gonna launch off of this even though Currently right now in our group.
11:15: There's there's no dispensationalists here in One thing about them being consistent in their their hermeneutic of how they see the
11:26: Old Covenant and the New Covenant and how they see the divisions of the
11:32: Testaments and How they're interpreting them has had meaningful changes to their eschatology and meaningful changes of Of how they interpret the
11:45: Old Testament. And so when they say that Israel and the church are not the same thing
11:52: Therefore we are in this thing called the dispensation of the church age To where a
11:59: God will go back to dealing with Israel because there were promises over there You see they fit
12:05: Israel into their eschatological position after a pre -millennial after a pre -tribulation rapture for most of them and Then God goes back to dealing with the nation of Israel because that is their interpreting hermeneutic
12:20: They are seeing Israel the promises made to Israel promises made to Abraham They're seeing that as that's the land promise.
12:29: That's the that's the promise to Abraham's offspring the physical offspring the physical people of Israel I would agree that it's you know done incorrectly when they're talking about an heir
12:42: Galatians 316 It is talking about Christ and those that are in Christ but yet the
12:51: Their covenant theology if you call it right because it has to deal with the covenants how they talk about they just call them dispensations and How they're dividing them is
13:05: Changing the way that they see eschatological events From it causes a pre -trib rapture.
13:11: It causes a tribulationary period where God is dealing with ethnic Israel and I would also argue for a millennial reign of Christ as well
13:27: You well you kind of took me where I wanted us to go I was gonna bring in using
13:33: Covenantal language, we would say that we are in the the covenant of grace currently and so you brought up the fact or The dispensational view that you have the the church age and then
13:50: God will deal with after the rapture. He will deal with ethnic Israel again, and so That seems to be an opposition dividing point between coming to theology and dispensationalism where We say the covenant of grace continues throughout but then
14:13: I Don't I don't see how the covenant of grace would continue in after the rapture
14:23: When they say the the Tim's gonna be rebuilt they're going to have sacrifices again
14:29: Somebody clarify me if I'm going in the wrong direction but I'm seeing a distinction there between the covenant of grace and What dispensational say happens for the church age and then the
14:43: You said something I'm sorry, go ahead Troy so a lot of them
14:48: Whenever you they there's talk of the third temple being built. They're just gonna point you to like the
14:54: Olivet discourse, right Matthew 24 Where there's a temple there, right?
14:59: And because a lot of them That they don't believe that a good portion of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in 70
15:06: AD Right in the destruction of the temple and they go look. This is the end times and there's a temple there
15:14: That temple does nothing efficacious A lot of them will say no.
15:19: No one's gonna be saved through temple sacrifices The only way to be saved is in Christ even in the tribulationary age
15:28: Basically the Jews rebuild a temple Israel rebuilds a temple and they start doing sacrifices and Then you have the hundred and forty four thousand that would be preaching, you know
15:41: This is wrong. You must believe in Christ all of these that you're that you're seeing being done today
15:46: We're all to point to Christ. They shouldn't be going on now Antichrist comes sits in the temple
15:55: You know declares himself to be God Jesus comes back cleans house takes names
16:02: And that's the that's the same in all of our views and You know millennial kingdom eternal state
16:12: Did that kind of help your answer on how your question on how they how they do the temple?
16:19: It's not necessarily that that the believers are going back to the Old Covenant Right, the believers are still going that temple sacrifices idolatrous
16:29: Versus but they just say that the temple will be rebuilt Because due to their interpreting hermeneutic where they read in Matthew 24 very literally
16:40: That there's going to be a temple. They also read it back into Daniel Daniel 7
16:47: They go look there's a temple and we know Jesus Christ didn't come when the second temple was destroyed so he must be talking about the third temple and So that that's kind of their interpreting hermeneutic of how you know
17:02: Which kind of goes back to the point to you're interpreting hermeneutic of how you read. The scriptures is going to have eschatological implications
17:14: Yeah, how does anybody else's a view of coming theology?
17:23: Shape your eschatology. Well, I think for me personally because I I started out
17:32: Not a full dispensationalist, but after talking with Troy and learning a little more about that Probably somewhere in the in the realm of a leaky dispensationalist a
17:44: Huge emphasis on Ethnic Israel being in the land There's a time clock that's only counting down when they're in the land, you know kind of thing
17:55: It was it was a central component of them being in In in the land of Palestine, but When I came to a covenantal understanding and I I became post mill
18:10: Before I had I had come to covenant theology and my covenant theology still a little squirrely I've had extended conversations with a handful of you and I don't really fit into any camp at the moment
18:20: But I'm definitely covenantal and not not dispensational but like what's already been highlighted tonight with Troy and and Sorry Troy and Jay What you understand about God's covenants specifically regarding the physical offspring of Abraham It has to affect what you believe is going to happen at the end
18:50: You can't be a covenantal Dispensationalist not with any sort of of consistency and so for for me
19:01: And there were some other some other issues that contributed to it, but for me looking at it and saying no
19:07: God's covenant people has always been there right Gentiles were grafted into something that was already existing
19:13: Right the the that covenantal olive tree that that contained all the patriarchs all of the
19:19: Apostles The Gentiles were grafted into that and those who did not believe the the the children of Abraham who did not believe were then broken off Like Paul says in Romans 11 to make to make room for the
19:33: Gentiles That has to affect the way you look at God's relationship
19:39: Post Christ, so after Christ has died raised and ascended to heaven
19:47: That has that has an effect on the the nature of God's relationship with the physical offspring of Abraham it has to and that that would also
19:58: It of necessity would have an impact on on What the the last days?
20:05: Will look like I think it's important that as we come to Talking about this issue right as we lay aside a covenantal
20:21: Interpretation right how a covenantal hermeneutic whenever we read in the
20:26: New Testament the New Covenant which are very Didactic texts right like these are straight to the point if you're reading in the epistles
20:35: It's pretty much black and white a lot of the time. It's very Decisive but also in that there is no shortage of Old Testament quotations and so Whenever we're given an
20:51: Old Testament text a lot of times it is telling us how to interpret that Old Testament text and so we will take that back to the
21:02: Old Testament and Plug it in if that makes any sense, right? I'm sure I could probably explain this better But if you reading an
21:11: Old Testament text say you're reading Zechariah 14, right and you're like, okay Whoa, all of this is gonna happen.
21:18: How did this happen? What what does this mean for us? And you read in the New Testament? Oh Oh, okay.
21:24: This this is fulfilled in the coming of Christ, right? Some of it attends to his first coming some of it to his second
21:31: But the overall picture of Zechariah 14 is both of his comings is the
21:37: Messiah that's come And so it's gonna lay out that framework by interpreting the
21:42: Old Testament scriptures Through the way the New Testament tells us to which is that it all of these promises are fulfilled in Jesus Christ And so that's how it's gonna affect our that like that would be
21:56: Most of our here are hermeneutic. It would be whenever it says
22:02: You know that wait does does this passage really mean this or is this an allegorical language that shows a heavenly reality
22:13: That we don't you know, it's speaking of something physical but relating to us something spiritual
22:22: Right, right and so dispensationalism will read those Old Testament promises and take them
22:31: Wooden leave literally right in a very wooden sort of way Like when it talks about temple, it's like it has to be a temple right?
22:38: Whereas Jesus says my body is that temple, right? and so the way that covenantally you would interpret scripture is
22:48: You allow the New Testament to interpret the old and tell you what what these
22:54: Old Testament prophecies? Meant so classic example, right Matthew 2 13 and 14
23:03: Or actually, I think it's just 13 or maybe like 13 through 15. Let me look it up Matthew 2 13 through 14 here it is
23:12: So it says now when they had departed behold an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said rise
23:17: Take the child and his mother and flee to Egypt and remain there until I tell you for Herod is about to search for the child to destroy him and he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and Remained there until the death of Herod.
23:33: This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the Prophet out of Egypt I called my son
23:40: Now that's referencing Hosea. And if you go to Hosea 11
23:47: Hosea 11 says Starting in verse 1 when at when Israel was a child, I loved him and out of Egypt I called my son if you keep reading it.
23:56: It doesn't sound like a sign about Jesus Christ Look, it says in verse 2 the more they were called the more they went away
24:03: They kept sacrificing to the bowels and burning offers or offerings to the idols to idols
24:08: Yet it was I who taught Ephraim to walk so on and so forth, right? So if you read
24:14: Hosea 11, you think this is talking about like the people of Israel Right as a nation the
24:21: New Testament is actually telling us no that was about Jesus Christ and so That is a big component of the covenantal hermeneutic it's let the
24:34: New Testament tell you what the Old Testament was talking about and As Troy said that it's all ultimately all about Jesus Christ Whereas Dispensational hermeneutic will take that Hosea 11 say but this has to literally be about Israel the people
24:55: Right the nation Does that make sense Rob? Absolutely. Yeah, and Let me continue to lead that line of thinking with this question.
25:06: So why do you see? Those Who are post meal on meal and probably historic pre meal the covenant theology camp and Then your free trip rapture just three millennial folks.
25:24: They're in a dispensational camp. I Mean that that's a pretty pretty clear line there.
25:29: You're if you're this you're in the covenantal camp You're this you're in the dispensational camp Um Why do you why do you see that the these particular eschatologies in the covenant of a little camp
25:44: Are you asking like why why we hold to the eschatology that we do based on our covenantal theology
25:50: Is that what you're you're asking? How do we see it? Yeah, because you won't see you typically don't see a post meal on meal historic pre meal
25:59: I don't think in the dispensational camp and what well
26:06: Dispensationalism that the eschatology is tied in because it only works With the distinction if your eschatology is free trib
26:17: Premillennial Then the only way that you get to that is seeing that strict definition between Israel and the church
26:27: And so there are covenantal people that are pre millennial. I believe big John's here big
26:33: John right here, right? You're premill right premill all day long. And so somebody's gonna be right
26:40: And so You know, but he is seeing it through a covenantal framework,
26:46: I don't know if I am or not I'm still trying to figure out what how How covenantal the word covenantal and all this makes sense.
26:54: That's why I'm listening. I got two ears and one mouth I'm gonna exercise my ears this evening carry on.
27:02: Oh He's done put you in the middle buddy My wife brought me a milkshake. I'm listening
27:10: But sandwiches though And so to get to their eschatology, you have to have the interpreting framework versus whenever you start talking about Covenantal theology
27:24: Whether it's Presbyterian covenant theology or 1689 federalism new covenant theology.
27:30: They're gonna be Closer together, but I will say, you know, it's not
27:38: It's not as dialed out that that this eschatology fits best within this covenantal framework and Honestly, it's probably due to some inconsistencies on on our parts, you know, everybody would be 1689 federalists on millennial
27:58: Idealist if you know, they they just read their Bible, right? But you know it we're we're kind of going back and forth at that point
28:10: We can't let them so here's the deals no, no, no, hold on there's no No deal the bad deal
28:19: Josh and I we have to respond to to these blasphemous Slanderous accusations.
28:25: I mean Josh. Are you post bill that all day? Absolutely. His Bible only contains
28:31: Psalm 2 and Psalm 110 You know, what one of the things that we're supposed to be discussing
28:44: God's law and I actually think that that Ties even further into why
28:50: I'm post mill than just covenantal theology Because a lot of the
28:57: Old Testament prophecies about Eschatology tied the law into Isaiah 2
29:06: Isaiah 2 is a 42 Isaiah 9 So I mean
29:12: Zechariah for example Is all over it and yes, Isaiah 2 I would say is probably the strongest case
29:18: But but it talks about you know, the law of God Into the nations, right them coming up to to Mount Zion that they would learn the ways of the
29:31: Lord and so When you look at my covenantal framework
29:37: It is absolutely tied Not just to my eschatology But to my view of the law,
29:44: I like all those three things are actually completely Connected to one another it's not like well
29:50: You have an eschatology over here and then my I have my hermeneutic over here And then I have my view of the law over here.
29:56: Like it's it's all interconnected So you want to talk about? Just being consistent
30:04: Troy I just think I need to spend more time in Hebrews and Galatians. Oh But I mean, absolutely, you know, in fact, would you agree also in Romans?
30:15: Oh Yeah. Yeah, it all fits together. Okay. Yes. So I mean like Romans 331, right?
30:20: Like do we do away with this law by no means? Wow Reestablished law, right so Hebrews 712 for the priesthood being changed there is made of necessity a change also of the law
30:35: Well, sure a change but what kind of change is what we're talking about Well, Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my
30:45: Commandments Jesus is God So he is talking about We can quickly turn
30:53: A post mill all mill debate we could but we're not really started this by the way I just want to lay the blame where it belongs
31:00: Troy started this with a Empty glass thrown from across the room over here.
31:07: I Knew it would end up here. So, um, I was prepared for it. So go go right ahead
31:14: Okay, Ephesians 2 15 I'm Jeff I was like, all right.
31:21: Hang on. Let me get my Bible I gotta gotta be prep for for Troy, but but no,
31:26: I mean, you know So really what what it gets down to is these things?
31:33: It's like I was saying at the beginning right like you can't just pick and choose Well, I want this eschatology, but I want this hermeneutic and I want you know
31:42: It's it's not a buffet right? Like you have to be consistent if you're taking the Word of God serious
31:48: Can I ask you a serious question about that? Sure so now well we all know that I'm the the
31:58: The most uninformed in the room when it comes to eschatology, right I spent
32:04: You know less than no time Studying it the way that y 'all do. I mean I have studied it but not nothing like like y 'all have based on Mostly personal conviction, which
32:15: I'd be happy to share at a time. We've got more time but my my concerns is that if we're going to be
32:23: Consistent with an eschatological worldview and use the same hermeneutic consistently throughout
32:30: Then how do you fall down on all these? Hyper preterists who who start out seemingly enough where you and Rob lay
32:40: But before it's over with have already had the Lord returning in 70
32:46: AD Completed completely and I came here what the guy's name is but I listened to him break this down and then as another guy's listening to who who
32:57: God had saved out of out of this according to his own words that God had Shown him the error of his ways from his what he referred to as full
33:09: Preterism and he has since come to a historical
33:15: Premial view so I'm curious as to where He come from was that To consistently apply the same her to new hermeneutic that brought him to post -millennialist is also the same hermeneutic that took him to full
33:28: Preterism so is that a concern at all to you or do you are you already leaning that way? No Yeah, so Wait, are you answering the first question or the second question?
33:42: Well, I was asking you but I heard Troy say something so I was kind of trying to figure out what he was answering Yeah, I think that it it's
33:50: Dangerous in certain ways because to be full preterist is to be
33:55: Legitimately a heretic, correct? Because you are denying the the return of the
34:00: Jesus of Jesus Christ, right? You're saying that it happened in 70 AD And I mean it leads to absolute hair heresy
34:10: Can't say the Apostles Creed is a full preterist No that's what I was about to say is that this is why it's important to understand and hold to the historic creeds and Confessions because there are guardrails that keep you within orthodoxy.
34:26: Well, my question specifically was that if if the if what
34:32: I'm hearing brother Jay say is that his His consistency to the same hermeneutic is there what brought him here
34:40: And I don't doubt you at all brother Jay. I'm just saying that if if that's the case then
34:46: What stops this hermeneutic from pushing itself all the way? to Full preterism.
34:54: Yeah, is that something that you're afraid of at all? Well for myself, no I would
35:00: I would be afraid of like somebody else go into that conclusion But I mean like we can have all kinds of extremist views from orthodox views, right?
35:10: Like this is not exclusive to just preterism but but what I would say is
35:18: Why can't I be a full preterist well You know Josh nailed on the head, right?
35:24: Like first of all, there are historic creeds and confessions that we have to hold to to kind of keep our grind guardrail
35:32: You know to work as guardrails to keep us in orthodoxy But ultimately where does that authority come from?
35:39: It comes from Scripture itself. And so for example when you read like 1st Corinthians 15 Right when the last enemy to be defeated is death in verse 25.
35:50: I Look around and people are still dying. So Jesus Christ has not yet returned
35:56: Right, you can look at those things and say obviously We're still waiting on second coming of Christ and that's just one example
36:02: I mean, you know the Scriptures make it clear that he comes to establish new heavens new earth
36:08: There will be no more suffering no more pain Yeah, none of that and we still are waiting for the return of Jesus Christ to establish all of those things
36:16: Would you for the resurrection of the body, etc? And I agree with that Would you concede to the to the fact that if not careful the the same?
36:26: Because here's the thing The same hermeneutic you use for some things is the same hermeneutic someone else uses and if we're going to be consistent
36:34: This is why? This is one of the biggest reasons why I don't allow women to hold authority over men in my church
36:42: Because when the Methodist Church went down this road some whatever 70 years ago or whatever It was the same hermeneutic that they used to allow homosexuals to lead in their church.
36:52: It was precisely the same hermeneutic. So I we had a a women's conference at my church this weekend and I've got no problem with those right if if women want to teach women and have a fellowship together
37:07: I I'm all about it. Whatever, you know use my church if you want to totally fine with that But the
37:15: Bible says not they're not to hold authority over men and It couldn't be more clear. We just couldn't be more clear
37:22: So the people that use the hermeneutic that allow women that position are the same people that you wind up using the hermeneutic
37:29: That says well, there's no more man. No more woman. No more male No more female now we start crossing the line as to as to whether or not someone can be in fact transgendered
37:38: So if we're going to be we have to be careful when we use the terms that we're going to be consistent with the same hermeneutic and realize that Yes, we have to always use the same hermeneutic not understanding that our minds aren't always understanding everything correctly
37:53: We don't lean on our own understanding and if we lean on our own understanding and continually press into one
38:02: We continue with the same word one hermeneutic the way that that we have if we're not careful the logical conclusions
38:08: May take us to a direction that the Bible wouldn't take us to based on the use of our own human logic as frail as it
38:15: Is is that clear? That's fair. But here's here's what I would say to that is, okay
38:20: I I believe in sola scriptura right scripture alone is the highest infallible authority for all life and godliness but I also believe in tota scriptura and so I'm not going to to read a text of scripture in Isolation from what the rest of the scripture is saying
38:39: I may say, okay this text maybe it's saying this maybe it's saying that But I'm not gonna hang my head on an interpretation of that text without allowing
38:49: Scripture to interpret scripture. I'll give you that kind of like my background right here.
38:54: Hey, what is that? Oh, this is a Visualization of the cross references in the
39:01: Bible that they've drawn a line between every verse that is connected. Yeah, that's pretty cool
39:07: Yeah, Jay. I have a question for you would you see the
39:13: Partial -preterist approach to interpreting scripture as different from that of a covenantal
39:21: Theology interpreter Interpretation of scripture and so whenever someone is reading as a as a partial preterist, right?
39:30: Now, of course, this is going to be dealing with a lot of certain texts Breaking it down, but there is that partial preterist approach
39:39: Versus someone that is that is covenantal Would you see that distinction there
39:46: You're you're saying would the Preterist interpretation be different from a traditional covenantal approach
39:53: Well, if if we go like if we go to Matthew 24, right and someone reads it as a partial preterist
40:01: I'll kind of get throw out Jeff Durbin, right Jesus returned in judgment against Israel Versus whenever I read that text,
40:10: I'm going to say this is this is future right like yes 8070 happened.
40:16: He was talking about 8070, but he's talking about both and at the same time, right?
40:22: He's talking about that and he's also talking about his future coming that there's hints of both in there
40:30: Would you would you see a sharp distinction in those or would you go? Okay partial preterism? You know whenever you're reading
40:37: Such and such passage you're gonna see this as 70 AD 70 AD. This is 70
40:43: AD. This was 70 AD Yeah, I was just gonna pick your thoughts on that so I think it depends on the context and what it's talking about Right, like so Matthew 24.
40:56: I think the key I know that people don't like for me to say this don't like when partial preterists say this but the key is this
41:03: Generation will not pass away. I mean That's why
41:08: I hang my hat on now. Not entirely right. It doesn't mean that I don't consider the rest of the text
41:15: But do I see that same kind of language in other places in the Bible? And if so what did it mean and So, you know you have
41:25: Daniel and and I think it's a Zechariah as well Where God is coming in judgment over Israel things like that and so you you compare the
41:36: The text and you say well, hold on now if this generation is not going to pass away and He is coming right like he says not one stone will be left upon another and When he's talking about the temple
41:52: Jesus is right you look at that and you're like, hmm Yeah, this really doesn't sound like he is really referring to his second coming
42:02: To to earth to establish new heavens in the earth But it really does sound a lot like that Old Testament language coming in judgment now
42:12: Yeah Take you back to verse 30, right? Cuz that the verse 34 is verily I say unto this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled
42:21: You know verse 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the
42:29: Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he shall send His angels with the great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other
42:41: You know that that's two verses beforehand 30 31 And so I was just kind of curious as to you know, whenever someone's reading it do you think that they would interpret that differently if they were holding to a strict partial preterist view as A like would there be a distinction in there?
43:02: because that sounds like a second coming level between partial preterist and and What what other like like an idealist?
43:11: Interpreter technically, it's got I mean it'd be like an idealist approach to revelation they're more
43:19: Comfortable with sure, you know general symbolism and things like that. Yes.
43:24: Yes. I gotcha an idealist, you know The idealist sort of view and the historicist sort of view really kind of blend into one another believe it or not
43:38: Because Idealist is almost eclectic in nature. Yes, it is. It is Some future some it's very
43:46: Augustinian right like Augustine I think he was an idealist right if I recall reading some of the things that he wrote on It's been a while since I read
43:55: Augustine But So what they interpret it differently what they view it differently from partial preterist.
44:02: Yeah, I mean, I think so, you know that's part of the reason why They are more idealist than they are
44:09: Preterist right so but I just for example, like you you bring up like, you know, all the
44:16: The tribes of the earth shall mourn and things like that You know, you will see the the
44:22: Son of Man coming in the clouds it's funny because Jesus said that to Caiaphas Like if you recall he says you will see the
44:32: Son of Man coming in the clouds. Yeah now When I read stuff like that when
44:38: Jesus when Jesus really emphasizes this generation, right There are some of you standing here today in Luke that will not taste death before you see all these things take place
44:50: Or when he tells the Caiaphas you will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of judgment I don't know if he says judgment.
44:57: I'm just adding that in there But but it it just it seems like such an emphasis that I can't just say well
45:05: You know, yeah. Okay. It's just future and that's it. Like I have to do something with it.
45:11: You see what I'm saying? and so when I look to Scripture to Interpret that I mean
45:17: I kind of end up with the preterist view not because I'm looking for for everything to confirm preterism but rather because It's kind of like the only
45:27: The only thing that I see consistently So, I don't know if that answers your question or not
45:34: I'll accept it. My wife told me to be nice. She already got on to me. She sent me a message
45:42: We appreciate you I was gonna go to Matthew 24 too because I think it touches on One of the things that big
45:48: John was asking the the coming of Jesus and how we understand that differently other than the coming of Jesus and you know
45:57: Traditionally everybody thinks when you when you say the coming of Jesus you're talking about his second coming and that's it but when you look at Matthew 24, mm -hmm, and I so appreciate what
46:08: Jay was saying about total scripture and taking everything in in context and using all of Scripture and what
46:18: Jay said about Understanding the Old Testament in light of the New Testament.
46:23: It's so important in Matthew chapter 24 You know you you start in verse or you look at verse 30 or 33 and 34
46:32: You've got to look at the media context All right. Let's start there Jay was absolutely right.
46:39: What kind of coming is Jesus talking about? Well, what kind of language is he using? He's using judgmental language that has previously already been used in the
46:49: Old Testament when it related to God bringing judgment on Nations and so That's how we get
46:57: Jesus is coming that type of coming is coming in judgment because that's the type of Coming that Jesus is talking about and then you're talking about, you know, this this generation.
47:08: Who's the audience? Well, you look at the context of Matthew Matthew chapter 23.
47:13: Whoa to you. Whoa to you. Whoa to you What do you I mean the the context is he's speaking to that audience to that generation and you can't skip over I think it's three different times in Matthew chapter 10 chapter 16, maybe two times, but you will you will not you will not pass through finish passing through the cities of Israel before I come or What's the other one?
47:40: Until you see my kingdom coming You you will not pass through you know,
47:46: I finished going through the cities of Israel You Have to take those things in the context.
47:52: I mean it what do the those things mean other than Jesus came in judgment?
47:58: And you brought up the sign of the Son of Man being in heaven and You know, we generally think of coming and Jesus coming down But to me
48:09: I continue to go back to Daniel Where it says he will be coming up to the ancient of days and there he is in heaven
48:18: So that's the sign that that Matthew 24 is come out The sign is the Son of Man being seen in heaven and Daniel prophesied about that he is coming up to the ancient of days and and just just to answer one more of your questions and then
48:32: John you can That's all good I would probably this is just I'm a lot like Josh.
48:41: This is kind of where I am right now But I would probably find myself you John you were asking about the hermeneutics and slipping into full preterism
48:51: I've probably view myself more preterist than some of the other guys here just because I Have a hard time finding that line between Matthew 24 and 25.
49:04: I have a hard time finding that I have a hard time finding that line between Revelation 21 and 23
49:12: But when it comes to Jesus second coming I can't get away from Jesus speaking of I feel like he's speaking of that day in John chapter 6
49:21: I can't get away from 1st Corinthians 15. I can't get away get away from 1st Thessalonians chapter 4
49:27: I can't get away from those passages that are talking about. I feel his second coming Those other passages like Matthew 24 and Revelation 21
49:37: I struggle with finding that line that distinction line that some partial preterists want to put in there
49:44: But I but as far as his second coming, I can't get away from those other passages Yeah, and I think that I'll just say this one thing about that full preterism
49:54: Just absolutely just wrecks those passages right like you mentioned The 1st
50:01: Thessalonians 4 and 1st Corinthians 15 and all those other passages full preterism really just It's I said
50:10: Jesus. I mean There's no way around it. You know what I mean? Like when it comes to the second coming of Christ The the scriptures are so there there are things in scripture that are more obscure, right?
50:24: We we all acknowledge that there are things that are harder to understand But there are some things
50:30: That are so abundantly clear and rephrased and rephrased and rephrased
50:36: That the only way to deny them is essentially to just no longer be honest with the scriptures
50:43: There's room for interpretation and differences and things like that. That doesn't mean we're all correct That means that some of us are wrong and some one of us might be right
50:51: Maybe none of us are right, right and God tells us when we make it up to heaven says hey, by the way
50:56: You were all wrong, but that's okay, you know but there are things that are so Essentials essential to the gospel right the gospel promises and in that includes the resurrection right the new body
51:09: You know the new heavens in the earth. All of that is part of the inheritance and so if we don't have that which full preterists deny
51:19: I Mean, do you even know Christ? I mean that that's that's the problem
51:26: Sure, I'll give you that. I just I mean there's there's so much more to Matthew 24
51:33: Then then the verses that I hear post -millennials used on the regular, right?
51:39: and and I don't want to get in the weeds about it because as I said for me eschatology is
51:47: I don't say it's a non -issue but I It's secondary it's so it's tertiary at best here's the thing if I was on a if I was left
51:59: But no, it's not even like that I was never but I was never on a deserted island with all of the scriptures But I didn't know that 70 ad was a thing until on the first podcast
52:10: Rob asked me to come on Right. So like I didn't know the temple was destroyed in 70 ad
52:15: It didn't cause me a wink of sleep to be lost one bit. I was able to read scripture and Know the
52:21: Lord and and have a relationship with him and understand Matthew 24 without Reading it in light of the temple being destroyed
52:33: Mostly because it's not in Scripture anywhere Nowhere in Scripture. Do I read about this temple being destroyed?
52:41: And I ask you a question just real quick while you're talking big John leave big
52:46: John in the middle if Whenever we read things like Isaiah and then
52:54: Nehemiah and Ezra Would you say that like obviously you're gonna say like it's important to know that whenever Nehemiah and Ezra and Haggai And Zechariah are preaching like they're working on rebuilding the temple rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem And that's a historical part of the context you have to throw in there
53:12: Mm -hmm While they're saying it while yet the the destruction of the second temple in 70 ad isn't mentioned within Scripture Josh and Jay would probably say because you know, all scripture was written beforehand, but I See that as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad being one of those things where I'm like Jesus Jesus foretold it, you know, he foretold it and so that becomes an
53:41: Interpreting factor just like no one that Nehemiah and Ezra were coming out of Babylon Necessarily true
53:50: So, you know Ezra Nehemiah's come out of Babylon because you know Israel went into Babylon you read about the
53:57: Babylonian captivity we don't read about the destruction of of The of the temple and scripture we don't read about so so you're you're left
54:08: And and I'm sorry, this is the same problem that Dispensationals have you're left
54:14: Taking and front -end loading some of your scripture interpretation was something that you didn't find from scripture
54:21: And and that's that's that's all there is to it I mean if you can't find it in scripture and you're using something
54:27: I'm not saying you can't that you can't read the the Bible In light of what's going on, but I've heard more than one dispensationalist be
54:36: Be raked over the coals because they're reading Revelation with the newspaper in front of them and I've said that postman let's just read the
54:44: Bible with the history book in front of them and if if we're going to use the entire book to ascertain the meaning of Matthew chapter 24
54:55: I'm saying that you would be hard -pressed for for 80 70 to be a large part of your usage or a large part of your
55:04: Your biblical text to find a complete exegesis from that You can't have some manner of isogesis in it.
55:15: So can I can I well before we do that? We've got that weird guy in our comment section again.
55:20: Talk about how that's themed God in October at 2005. I Mentioned him in the private chat.
55:28: Oh, I'm sorry. You're fine. Sorry. I missed the private chat, too I J you can jump right in there.
55:39: I just wanted to answer John's question there of why we don't see Temple being destroyed in Scriptures because it the scripture was written before that happened.
55:53: That's That's the view you have but there's many people who say that's not true and Who's the order?
56:01: Well, what I would argue is if Jesus predicts that something is going to happen, right and it does come to pass
56:11: Exactly as he said not one stone upon another Okay, right this generation will not pass away until these things take place
56:17: So let's look at it that way if we're gonna look at the temple destructions being this particular thing the way you're talking about it
56:23: Is the Western Wall not primarily composed of stones still tax on stacked on top of one another from the original it is
56:28: Well, then no Not it's not part of the original temple I mean it is part of the temple complex, but it's not part of the temple itself.
56:38: Did they rebuild it? To have that part of the wall or is there still stone stacked on top one another?
56:44: Well again, there are stones Right exactly. So like if I build
56:50: I don't know a university right and I build a wall around it Well, that wall is certainly part of the university complex
56:57: But the building of that is the university or the buildings that make up the university
57:02: You would say it's not like that's the university itself Yeah and I'm not trying to to be combative so much as I'm just saying from from this text if I were if I were to to look at 70
57:12: AD as being a huge portion of my understanding of this text and And my entire basis of this being that I'm using the whole of Scripture to interpret this text
57:24: You understand the problem with that? I Mean, am I being just overly stupid?
57:30: I actually agree with you brother John. I don't I don't think you're being stupid I think that Well, I think this is just gonna be one of those things where we're gonna have to Agree to disagree and that's fine.
57:43: And I mean, I'm not it to me. It's not it's a non -issue I mean to me it's a non -issue if you if you want to To use 70
57:51: AD to Understand this. Well, hold on 24. Let me let me let me clarify something
57:57: I'm with I don't I don't use 70 AD to understand that portion in Matthew 24
58:03: I look at Matthew 24 and I say did this happen as Jesus said in this generation and Then I look at what happened.
58:12: Okay Afterwards and I say oh look at that in 70 ad it happened exactly as Jesus said
58:19: So I start with the scripture and then go from there. I don't read 70 ad into the scripture
58:25: So when he says you and he talks about you if he uses the word you is he talking about the person he's talking to Yes You I'm looking at the audience.
58:36: Yeah, okay So when he says I don't want anyone to mislead you For many will come in my name saying
58:43: I am the Christ and will mislead many You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars see that you are not frightened for those things
58:51: Must take place and it's not yet the end for the nation shall rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom and in various places
58:58: There will be famines and earthquakes, but all these things are merely beginning of the birth pains then
59:06: They would deliver you to tribulation and will kill you and you will be hated of all nations because of my name
59:13: And at that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another
59:19: Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many because of lawlessness is increased
59:24: Most people's love will grow cold but the one who endures to the end he will be saved the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to the whole world as a
59:34: Testimony to all the nations and then the end will come this you he's talking about If I were to take that and say well, he's talking about this person when he says you then and Use the same the are the same hermeneutic for this generation.
59:51: Then this person here he's talking to is going to die before he sees the return of the
59:58: Lord furthermore the entire world is going to be at war and For some bone for an eschatology that says that the world is going to gradually become more
01:00:07: Christian it reads That the world becomes more cold because of lawlessness
01:00:13: Increasing in the land it took to me reading it this way. I'm not left
01:00:20: At least in the first part and I'm not I said, um, we're not gonna read it all but in that part
01:00:25: I'm not getting an overly post -millennial view of that and if I were to take
01:00:31: The post -millennial view I would like Rob said I would have a hard time Not wrapping the whole shooting match up as a fully preterist viewpoint and that being the full explanation for that because what you use to discern part of that scripture you would have to use to discern the other part of that scripture and unless someone's willing to concede that all of these things have already happened and The kingdom of God is something that's running parallel to where we are right now
01:01:02: And Christ's return was not physical the way that he says it was going to be then. I'm having a really difficult time
01:01:10: Reading this which has been usually used as a post -millennial chapter as anything other than pre -millennial
01:01:17: Okay, so I'm not gonna give you both. But yeah, I'm not gonna give you the entire
01:01:24: Interpretation like partial preterist interpretation of that chapter, but you did say something
01:01:30: You mentioned that you if you read that you have to either take it pre -mill or full preterist
01:01:38: Right, that's well. No, I said I could not use the post mill worldview and Not be cannot use the same hermeneutic to become post mill and not be full preterist
01:01:50: I don't see where you can become partial preterist with this chapter if this is one of the chapters that you use as your
01:01:59: I Touchstone of theology, right? Yeah, so that's that harkens back to the original concern.
01:02:06: I have for partial preterist is that So completely flesh this scripture out to me leaves one either being a historical pre -millennialist or a a
01:02:20: Postmillennialist who winds up becoming full preterist. So remember what I said, right? Remember what
01:02:26: I understand your concern But that's exactly why I say We have to take into account.
01:02:32: Not only sola scriptura But tota scriptura and you're right. You did say that you did so so you cannot get fixated on one verse or one passage
01:02:43: I'm totally in agreement with that. I mean and say I'm going to build a theology just off of this
01:02:49: We have to look at everything But you would admit that a lot of postmillennialists go to this chapter a lot whenever they're scribing there
01:02:57: Eschatological view to describe their preterism. Yes, because it's probably
01:03:03: I mean Everybody has texts where they kind of hang their hat on more than anything, right?
01:03:10: like if you're Let me give you an example. So if you are a non Calvinist, right and you have an issue with limited atonement
01:03:17: Where do you usually go? Like where's the one place that you're going to go? Terms of limited.
01:03:23: I mean that he would not none should perish that all should have ever last There you go gave us a Sunday or I mean there's a myriad of scriptures that I would go to you know
01:03:33: That would that would show God's provision for all people sure So so that but there are certain texts that like even though You have to look at all the scripture in terms of the atonement
01:03:45: Like for example when Jesus talks about only dying for his sheep You're not gonna you're not going to go there to make your case for you a universal atonement
01:03:55: You're gonna go to a particular text that supports what you believe With a pre -millennial thing, right like the the to make a pre -millennial position.
01:04:05: You're gonna go to Revelation 21 sure. Yeah, exactly that that's the spot like everybody your flagship
01:04:13: Everybody has everybody has texts where they they they attach themselves to a little bit more than than other texts
01:04:21: Because to them that's more clear than the other text So when you look at the post -millennial partial preterist going to Matthew 24, it's the exact same thing
01:04:31: You know, I'm not saying that we're innocent right that we're we're interpreting better than anybody else I'm simply saying like yeah those that is one of those key texts for the partial preterist where you're going to a
01:04:44: Really that you're really gonna use to defend your position doesn't mean that you have to Only use that text.
01:04:50: I mean we really need like I said Hoda scriptura sure, which is why I'm not a full preterist, right?
01:04:56: but There are certain texts that you're going to say. Okay. Look this one's really clear about this So here's here's where I'm what
01:05:03: I'm trying to show you make sense. Yeah. Yeah I mean, I'm I'm not arguing with with with your logic in terms of you using the entirety of Scripture and stuff like that so much as Well truthfully just voicing a concern voicing a concern because The whole of Scripture should be what we use to interpret all of Scripture I understand that things that we see in the world.
01:05:26: We don't deny them as being any less real as anything in Scripture and all I was stating was that 70
01:05:33: AD Hasn't affected My my life at all and in the capacity that it does a personal in us and 24 read absent the knowledge of the destruction being in 70
01:05:46: AD Doesn't doesn't shape. In fact, I say this
01:05:53: With with the most respect that I can give to anyone Brother Rob note has known me now longer than any of y 'all have known me and he would
01:06:04: I hope he would testify to this that my main concern has been in and and I hope for the rest of my life will remain the proclamation of the gospel and the accurate proclamation of the gospel and when it comes to to the eschatological worldviews that people have
01:06:20: I would be more inclined to becoming a pan millennialist than anything and God's gonna pan this whole thing out however, he wants to And and the the accurate understanding of the gospel to me is more important because I have witnessed
01:06:34: Someone's eschatological view shaped their gospel instead of their gospel Yeah, their eschatological view and that scares the daylights out of me because whenever I hear a dispensationalist say that Those that are left behind after the pre -tribulation rapture earn their salvation by way of suffering that I'm hearing a different gospel, right?
01:06:52: I'm hearing a way of salvation that is separate from Jesus Christ and that is absolutely a an abomination to Scripture and anathema of the text that's an anathema of belief system see
01:07:04: Galatian one to to point to Troy so that's just kind of where I've always fell down on is that you know, what if you want to believe in Post -millennialism,
01:07:15: I disagree with you and that's about as excited. I couldn't tell well,
01:07:20: I mean That's and that's well, I wouldn't I wouldn't just pick with anybody I know you can take it
01:07:25: You know, I mean, I didn't I didn't read your screenshots. I know you can take it. So It's it's it doesn't burden me down a bit if if Rob's got a line
01:07:44: He can't discern between preterism Partial what to what degree of partial he is because I know he knows the gospel
01:07:52: And as soon as he as soon as his eschatology starts to venture into areas, it makes his gospel shady
01:07:58: I'm gonna I'm gonna grab him by the beard and I'm gonna say oh boy now we both know that ain't so and And you've gotten outside it.
01:08:06: You've got outside of your purview and as we say in chervil You've got too big for your britches and it's time to it's time to slow down.
01:08:13: So that's that's been my concern In any time an eschatological debate gets brought up among among you man
01:08:20: It's because y 'all y 'all do spend a lot of time Studying eschatology nothing wrong with that, right?
01:08:27: Nothing wrong with that at all but it shows that you're very passionate about it and Maybe to my own shame.
01:08:34: I'm not as passionate about it. I am now I'm zealous for the gospel I'll die for this gospel
01:08:40: John I think I can give you one thing and I appreciate your concern because it sounds to me like it's not just a concern out
01:08:48: Of like it's a concern for for us, I think Because sounds like you care about us enough to make sure that we are within the realm of orthodoxy and standing for the gospel
01:09:00: I Cannot speak for Rob and Josh but uh, I'm sure that they would agree with me if I said when
01:09:07: I say if Post millennialism at any point leads me to a point where it is leading me to minimize or Undermine the essential truth of the gospel.
01:09:20: I will leave it in a heartbeat Christ God So if that's your concern, well,
01:09:26: I think it is I think you you have nothing to worry about because Where we stand
01:09:33: I mean Eschatology like The most important thing is the gospel the most it's not the only thing right?
01:09:43: That's the mistake That's some people think not everything is the gospel. That's right, but everything is founded on the gospel
01:09:50: And so the minute that something is leading me away from the gospel of Jesus Christ You can bet you're behind that.
01:09:59: I will be leaving it behind No, no pun. No left me. I like what I like I Think you make a great point.
01:10:09: The gospel is the main focus One thing that's always been in the forefront of my mind is
01:10:16: I want to know who this Jesus is That's my thing. That's my thing and by studying
01:10:25: The Totality of Scripture. I'm learning who this Jesus is and the totality of Scripture includes
01:10:32: Eschatology and so that's and so that's why I Want to dig into all these different facets of who my
01:10:39: Jesus is and understand him rightly I don't want to get him wrong. That's kind of been
01:10:45: Been my guardrails for a very long time I'm going to because I'm still human but he's given me his word and he's
01:10:55: He's told me what he's wanted to tell me and so I want to I want to get him, right?
01:11:00: I don't want to misrepresent him When when I speak about him when
01:11:05: I present him to another person or to the world. I want to get him Be accurate when
01:11:12: I'm speaking about Jesus. Mm -hmm and so that's that's to me why eschatology is important and And another reason why
01:11:19: I think these these conversations are important too but not discounting anything you said because I totally agree with you big
01:11:26: John, but What the different types of eschatology
01:11:32: Change how you live out the gospel Dispensationalism covenant theology change how you live out the gospel and So that I think that that's another reason why these conversations are important because it affects how you live out the gospel depending on what
01:11:52: What Let me say this and I'll let you go at it.
01:11:58: I've been critical this evening of Postmillennialists in a lot of ways, but I have to be honest in that I see in the secular world
01:12:11: I see historically the postmillennialist being Taken more of an assault on the kingdom of hell than I have the dispensationalist who at times will stick their hands in their pocket
01:12:21: And just wait on the Lord to come take them out of the world Instead of understanding that the world's been given to them as an inheritance.
01:12:27: So I will say that to your credit Understanding Christ and his fullness or as best you can right?
01:12:35: Let's not say that we understand Christ's fullness I think we can all agree that we can't do that here But um, but having a better understanding of Christ and his word at times has shown
01:12:47: That People with weak Eschatological views and truncated Gospels aren't quick to take a stand in the world when it comes to The things of God so I have to give credit where it's due
01:12:58: I see the postmillennialist even you know, you know, namely you you don't say a lot of this stuff on here but you're on the forefront a lot of advocating for the unborn for continually pushing
01:13:10: Your your you've put your money where your mouth is with fostering children You got to give credit for that where it's due and and your your eschatological viewpoint is
01:13:21: A driving factor in what you do. I'll give you that and there's some people who
01:13:29: Have a weak view of Christ and it shows in the fact that they don't
01:13:34: Take very much time at all to care about their neighbor I'm done
01:13:39: Uh, I'll say this my my first two messages I ever preached the first ones
01:13:47: I ever preached Were on the millennial reign of Christ From a pre -tribulational dispensational point of view and The emphasis was not on This is how
01:14:02: I am dogmatically dividing the scriptures But on the meditation of Jesus Christ is coming back
01:14:10: And man, is it gonna be so much better than what we have now? I'm seeing that the miseries in this life of dealing with sin dealing with death dealing with You know the the lost and just all of it all of it everywhere that we are in most miserable in This life but seeing that when when
01:14:31: Christ comes right all tears will be wiped away in that situation
01:14:37: I was in Dire circumstances not not the not as bad as what they could be
01:14:43: I'm sure there's a lot of people that had it a lot worse, you know at that point in time I was making $12 an hour as a single father, you know with cheapest apartment
01:14:53: I could find and ramen every night except the nights. I had my kid. We broke out the hamburger helper expensive meals for that night
01:15:00: You know But just the meditation on Christ is
01:15:07: Christ is coming back and not as not as a giver of gifts, right? Oh, then I won't have to worry about this
01:15:13: But just the meditation on oh the glory that I will get to share with him like that.
01:15:19: I don't deserve and so I think the study of eschatology is
01:15:28: The meditation on Christ is coming again and oh what a wonderful You know, what a wonderful time event that we will be experiencing in time, even though it will go into eternity
01:15:40: You know the the everlasting day of praising him as we behold him face -to -face
01:15:48: As as we are taught of him Man that gives me joy joy and great happiness and anticipation
01:16:00: You know, I like to shout with the Apostles even so come Lord Jesus come and And so while people can really get crammed down in the weeds on this
01:16:13: And it and it's almost like they can't they can't see the forest for the trees, you know, they're they're so busy arguing about little different offshoots of Different things but I think ultimately the drive and studying it is
01:16:31: Wanting to know more about Christ and his coming and and the glory that we'll have afterwards
01:16:38: Yeah, I just wanted to throw that in there Does he might have any last words
01:16:45: Can we do question number two now? The law
01:16:54: And In the last five minutes that we have or so So we usually did the law a while back and we kind of held on to the eschatology
01:17:03: Question for when it wasn't just me and Troy All Mills and Rob So it just wasn't a fair fight.
01:17:14: So the plan was for Big John to Start questioning us about preterism
01:17:21: I Didn't even know there were questions until Rob takes to me privately or somebody takes me and said it's on this page
01:17:31: You're talking about coming in just stupid unaware stupid Y 'all might not be keeping
01:17:37: Jesus as busy as I am. My prayer life has got Jesus busy I mean, he's continually saying hey stupid wrong way turn around.
01:17:45: Oh, yeah, that's right my bad I If you want to say something about number two while we're here
01:17:52: I we can come back and do another Episode on eschatology. I'd love to have that conversation. Hey, Jay charismatic cheetah just Reform because you got beards
01:18:06: Charismatic cheetah Hey, man, listen glad you're watching, but we do have a fellow sort of John You would say like charismatic
01:18:16: Pentecostal Pentecostal Pentecostal. There you go. So There's there's some connection there.
01:18:22: So But it shows that beards are not exclusive to the Reformed.
01:18:27: That's right. Look at this thing. Yes, sir Yeah, now I got a brush somewhere Rob. Give me
01:18:33: Yeah, I'm pedo Baptist and I got the shortest beard here. Yeah Okay, can somebody put up that?
01:18:39: There you go? Yeah Listen I've been talking and answering
01:18:52: John's questions non -stop. I think the people that have spoken the least have been Josh and Possibly you
01:19:00: Tyler. Mm -hmm. Yeah, so do you guys want to say anything at all about the law or Well, yeah the law because we shouldn't get into eschatology into further at this point.
01:19:11: Yeah, I'll say something real quick Just from my small teeth theonomist position
01:19:19: There's a lot of When you talk about the the abiding relevance of the
01:19:24: Old Testament law people they get a little nervous and it's understandable Right that we have a whole epistle written about how you shouldn't require
01:19:34: Circumcision you shouldn't require Gentiles to eat clean foods and all that stuff and that's yes and amen.
01:19:40: I agree with all of it I love my bacon and shrimp as much as anybody but we have to understand the distinctions maybe this will be like a like a little
01:19:49: Tease to what your appetite for the next episode if we if we go deeper into this the distinctions between the categories of law and What those laws now mean how they apply in the
01:20:03: New Covenant because it's not a one -to -one application. We don't say You know,
01:20:08: God said build a fence around your roof everybody has to have a fence around the roof we have to understand what the general equity of those laws is
01:20:18: What the intended? Purpose was and make application that way so we're not saying
01:20:27: We're not we're not issuing a a wooden one -to -one
01:20:33: Application of the civil law and we also understand and this is this is the historic position in End of the
01:20:41: Protestant Church is that the the Old Testament ceremonial law? So you have the moral law where's my camera the moral law the ceremonial law in the civil law?
01:20:52: The the ceremonial law with the washings Things that pertain to ritual uncleanness those were abrogated those were pointing specifically to Christ those were fulfilled and abrogated with Christ's coming
01:21:07: So those those are those are shelved they still speak of Christ There's there's still value in in reading them
01:21:13: Paul says to Timothy in first Timothy one that we know that the law is good. So long as it is used Lawfully, so there is a lawful
01:21:21: Application of the law and there's an unlawful Application of the law so To say that that I affirm the abiding relevance of the
01:21:32: Old Testament law Is not to say that that we all have to ditch our cotton poly blend shirts
01:21:40: And and go back to eating, you know, only the clean animals there. There's there's some nuance to it
01:21:47: But I think the New Testament itself bears witness to how the law is to be used in the
01:21:52: New Testament Right, I mean right and coming theology affirms the idea of bringing the law
01:22:02: Into The context of the Christian not as a means of salvation
01:22:09: But as a lamp unto our feet right as a way to live our lives in gratitude and love for Christ and so Hmm there's
01:22:22: Tying this to a covenantal framework and things like that like the question actually is like how do the three theological perspectives right like covenant theology new covenant theology
01:22:33: Baptist covenant theology How do they understand the law? There are some variations right like new covenant theology would say that like it's kind of like something between dispensationalism and covenant theology, so it will treat the law as A new law we have been given because of the new covenant, right?
01:22:54: Jesus is two commandments to love God and to love neighbor as ourself and They would say that is the law of the new covenant covenant theology both
01:23:06: Baptist and Presbyterian Would say well Jesus was summing up the
01:23:12: Old Testament moral law Right the Ten Commandments in those two commandments Some of it might be semantics
01:23:20: Some of it kind of doesn't play out exactly the same way and so That but but all all three
01:23:32: Perspectives will say there is a law for Christians to follow not as a means of salvation but as a means of possibly sanctification right
01:23:44: God sanctifies us as we obey him as we Do what he says and as a means of gratitude and servitude because we are now slaves of Christ not because we are
01:23:59: Trying to earn our salvation, so I don't know if that makes any sense anybody else want to speak to that I Both agree and disagree with you and I'll just do my drive -by disagreement.
01:24:11: Let's get ready to rumble And We'll have to save that one for another needed
01:24:19: Do you disagree with the argument or do you disagree with my distinction between those three?
01:24:27: I'm tired to be honest. I can't remember what three you listed but I Have the worst don't give me a list.
01:24:35: Give me one thing. He doesn't know what you said, but he knows he didn't like it That's your lips
01:24:48: It's whatever you throw out organized three steps I'm like Well, I think that's a good place to wrap this one up and and hopefully we can do one on theonomy on the law and eschatology
01:25:06: I mean do what because everybody's been talking about it in the chat. I'm here for it.
01:25:11: Oh my gosh Yeah, I gotta read the book again We can do that one too big foot here we go
01:25:20: It's coming guys. We're gonna we're gonna do all these fuck that you talking about Nobby Can we go on a knobby hunt up in case?
01:25:29: What I have no idea what any of y 'all I had to Google everything Josh was talking about Nobby lives in Kayser and and everybody who's listening just just trust me when
01:25:40: I say YouTube the 9 -1 -1 call about knobby.
01:25:45: He had beautiful blonde hair. Oh, I love that one It's one of my favorites. Oh, well, that's right.
01:25:51: I had to rough -talk him. I run him off with a stick So that's about 20 minutes ish from where Rob dwells if you take westbound
01:26:03: You just I know, you know, anyway, I know the fellow Well, I appreciate appreciate all you guys appreciate everybody watching if you haven't already
01:26:14: The only reason I asked this is because we we care about the gospel as John Reminded us and we care about Jesus and we believe that he is
01:26:23: King and we want to share that so we love partnering with each other and partnering with you and the way to do that on here is to you know subscribe and share that's the only reason we asked to do that because we we love doing it together because we love our
01:26:39: King and I think we all would agree with with this verse that says
01:26:45: Jesus tells Peter that Upon this rock. I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it
01:26:55: It is his church and he is King and we want you to know our
01:27:00: King And we want you to know him as Savior because he is powerful to save and and Jay was right
01:27:07: We didn't hear much from Joshua Tyler. How are are you willing to share the gospel tonight?
01:27:14: always Great always unless I'm having an asthma attack on camera, which is what happened last time
01:27:21: And when he finishes Josh, will you close us in prayer? So the gospel is essentially the good news about Christ and I think of no better place
01:27:35: Right now than to go to the book of Isaiah Coming a couple chapters after Isaiah 53, which many of us have heard in some form or fashion that he with the suffering servant who bore our sins this is read to in a eunuch on the side of the road in the book of Acts and the eunuchs were kind of the the
01:27:57: Members of society you didn't want to associate with they were that it let's go over on this side of the road
01:28:04: But hundreds of years before that hundreds of years before the book of Acts was written
01:28:10: God through Isaiah says these words It says neither let the son of the stranger that had joined himself to the
01:28:18: Lord speak saying the Lord hath utterly Separated me from his people neither. Let the eunuch say behold.
01:28:24: I am a dry tree For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my son is my
01:28:30: Sabbath and Choose the things that please me and take hold of my covenant even unto them
01:28:37: Will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name?
01:28:42: Better than and then of sons and daughters. I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off We are we are all eunuchs we are all
01:28:54: Outsiders when it comes to the will of God when it comes to the ways of God this is as in the previous chapter his thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways and Yet God saw fit to enter into our history
01:29:09: To dwell among us to show his otherness to us By living the life that we could never live
01:29:15: And so the Son Christ the Son puts on human flesh and lives among us
01:29:23: Keeps the whole law every facet ever every part lives a perfect sinless life and dies an undeserved sinners death in our place and He is buried
01:29:37: And on three days on the third day after he rises triumphant from the dead
01:29:42: Demonstrating that he has power over life over death and over the grave and He ascends triumphantly back into heaven having done all the work necessary To bring us eunuchs into the house of God So that as he said my house shall be a house of prayer for all and we at the truth and love
01:30:06: Network Invite you we plead with you to be reconciled to God To repent of your sins and turn to the face of Christ and be saved
01:30:17: That if you trust in Christ, you will find him to be an all -sufficient Savior who has done all the work necessary To make you his child
01:30:30: Amen, our great God and gracious father. We thank you for this day
01:30:37: We thank you for waking all of us up this morning father and just the the constant care that you give us
01:30:44: Your your faithfulness to us father we are so grateful we recognize that everything that we have every breath
01:30:53: Every second that we spend on this earth father is a gift from your hand and we thank you
01:30:59: Father, I thank you for this time together with these men to discuss your word to discuss theology
01:31:08: I Just thank you for all of them every household that's represented here both Participating in and watching online father.
01:31:15: I thank you I pray that you would bless this time that you would use this to Draw us after yourself that we would all grow in the knowledge of the
01:31:24: Son of God And that you would teach us the fear of the Lord father as we study your word as we sit and Read Holy Scripture as we meditate upon it father that you would instruct us in the fear of the
01:31:37: Lord that you would give us A spirit of wisdom and of revelation and the knowledge of you That the thoughts the words of our mouth and the meditations of our heart would be pleasing in your sight father
01:31:50: I'll pray for each man here that you would Just be with them throughout the rest of the week as they as they go to work as they care for their families that you
01:31:59: Would bless the labors of their hands and that you would just be glorified in all that we do
01:32:05: And for all this in Jesus name, amen Amen Amen Thank you again for watching the laborers podcast just to give you a further teaser coming up on future episodes we're gonna be talking about a
01:32:19: Christian view of mental health a biblical view of prayer spirituality without becoming Gnostic or Bethel while we don't believe in the rapture or some of us anyway
01:32:30: How to promote the example of unity and when to divide? Who is
01:32:36: Nimrod? What role does personal purposes play in picking a church and now we've just added to that list theonomy the law and a further
01:32:55: Here's the thing y 'all go mess around and I'm gonna go up yonder in Cajun I'm gonna find that thing and I'm gonna shoot it
01:33:01: I'm gonna bring it down here and I'm gonna have its hide tanned on laid on me I'll rebond it buddy.
01:33:10: I'll use it I'll wrap my oversized
01:33:17: King James Bible in knobby hide Thing I've ever heard in my life
01:33:24: Thank you guys for watching we'll see you next time Thank you for joining the laborers podcast