Now I think back of the movie Dumb and Dumber where Jim Carrey asked the lady

Just give it to me. What chance do I have if you're telling me there's no, you know So you're telling me there's a chance and I remember that conversation when

I saw that I'm like, man, I'm dumb. Am I the dumb or the dumber one?

Because that's what What hyper predators do so you're saying there's a chance.

Oh Hello everybody Thank you so much for joining the apologetic dog where it's our hearts desire to Guard the gospel deposit that's been entrusted to us and so we do that by warring against pagan philosophy and we contend for true knowledge and we expose other worldviews that has professed knowledge that Contradicts itself and so I would just like to encourage you to like and subscribe to this ministry.

This actually helps our videos Receive more viewership on YouTube And so that would really help and you can also find us on Instagram and I do things on Facebook and we're looking to go to these other

Media outlets and so if you would please join the ministry Of the apologetic dog understanding that this applies to all of us to guard the truthfulness of God's Word And I also want to encourage you if you're interested in following some of our preaching series

I serve as a pastor at 12 five Church. And so today I'm really excited because we're gonna be talking about Eschatology the study of end times and I've been a part of so many wonderful conversations about whether you're pre millennial dispensational

Believing in a pre -trib rapture Whether you got the votive Occam's out there that are all millennial this more of inaugurated

Kingdom that Jesus is in fact ruling and reigning now at the right hand of the Father and then you have the

Jeff Durbin's that See the the kingdom now in this post millennial framework, and I love these conversations

Because we can grapple over these issues, right? We understand that there are fundamental things about Eschatology the end times that you can't touch

Jesus is coming bodily in the future, right? He's gonna set up his Kingdom in a new way where it's gonna be a new heavens and new earth.

And so you can have these full discussions about maybe the nature of that coming right and so Eschatology is awesome until it compromises the gospel

And so I had to call in an expert because I'm starting to interact with this almost resurgence

Coming up called full preterism. And this is the idea that the second coming of Jesus has already happened at 70

AD So I had to call in the big guns. Dr. Sam Frost. Thank you so much for joining us

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yes. Well, hey, tell us a little bit about yourself who you are and why you're here today

Well at your invitation and to talk about matters that I Think but I know a good deal about I Was in the full preterist world for about Eight or nine years speaking actively 20 or so conferences across the

United States and Was one of the main leaders teachers in that in that movement one of the few having an actual church for four years

Oh, wow Yeah, we were one of them one of them you can count them on your hands how many full full preterist hyper preterist churches there are and this was you know, 2000 to roughly 2010 when

I saw that the There were a new innumerable problems with the overall paradigm and then trying to have that at the idea of Whatever one wants to make of what applies today with it, which is really one of the biggest problems that I'm seeing that they

That they encounter today. That's really where they start fragmenting. There's several fragmentations within the full preterist world

But that's that's one of the major ones that we can talk about Yeah, dr. Dr.

Frost. Do you have a website? Do you have anywhere in particular that people can look more into your work?

Yeah, it's a vigil dot blog big IL Dot VL OG vigil blog and that's where there's probably 70 or so papers on that miscellaneous papers on topics, whatever

I feel like writing on at the time and a lot of them I have to do with eschatology my former way of life and the way

I'm Seeing it now and So it's a lot of good stuff a lot of Good readership on that on that page.

So I I like the articles on there haven't taken any of them down Well good.

Do you we'll get into this more later. But do you have your paper on the problem of infinity on there?

Yeah, and I wanted to say Today, I found out that my mentor one of my mentors.

Dr. Kenneth Calvin passed away today and he's with the Lord In heaven as he awaits resurrection together with all of the

Saints. I'm in And so I'm a little saddened today my mind has been on been on that and Seeing what the arrangements will be made by the family there and everybody certainly pray for the

Talbot's. Hmm You know, dr. Talbot. Hey, dr. Talbot While I was a hyper preterist minister, he was there

During my ordination He just mentored me throughout the years and stayed with me even though he was catching some blackboard because I was a hyper preterist and He just stayed with me he just believed that I was all through you know kept confronting me with the issues and Problems him and dr.

Gary Crampton would do that and his brother Randall So at Whitfield seminary where I earned two master's degrees in my in my

THM there as well so He He worked with me on the issue on a paper.

We both researched together and then he wrote one and I wrote one On the nature of infinity because that was really where the problem.

Yeah It was Before we delve into that because I cannot wait

I reread that paper again today Do you mind to kind of define what what?

Preterism is and what hyper preterism is with partial preterism and why is this an important definition?

Why do we make those proper distinctions? And then why does that hyper full preterism compromise the gospel?

Well Um Preterism just classically, you know back to the second century.

So everybody knew that the temple fell that was a rather large war

Rome and Judea from 66 got stalled a little bit and then finally in 70 and Then on it didn't stop in seven.

Everyone thinks to stop in 70 It didn't went on to 135 136 137 under the barcode bug revolt and that's that's when it was actually the land was actually bulldozed and it was kind of illegal for Jews to have any kind of setup, but they were almost successful in rebuilding they certainly had the foundation of the temple in the city and Under that revolt in 135.

So they're almost they were massing them out a pretty good Sizable group and Rome finally just put the kibosh on the whole thing.

That was the end of that. Hmm, so You know, everyone thinks it ended in 70 just it didn't

But that's when it was named renamed Palestine. Just they called it Palestine set up a temple

God of the God Jupiter and just made it into a you know, kind of illegal for Jews to Not not to be there,

I mean there was always there's always Jews around them in and around that area But but legally to be there in terms of any kind of religious kind of way so And everyone knows that that that's that's pretty staple

You know history Josephus has always been a source that's quoted from second third centuries onward

And Just be clear. We're talking about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is common knowledge across the boards

Really than Rome. There's a big arch Titus arch Titus put up in 81

CE so it was You know, if you lived in Rome you would have seen this massive arch.

It's still there today. You'll see it of The temple complex and then the coinage that was issued so it was just common knowledge that Jerusalem was was the was burned and destroyed and So and and how you relate that to clearly what

Jesus was talking about to some degree And that's the issue to some degree he mentions

Jerusalem being surrounded by the armies Obama. He uses a Danielic language language of annual

You know abomination of desolation kind of cryptic when he talks about it he doesn't go into a whole lot of detail

And neither do the gospel writers so that's that's what that is but what some have done is to take that skirmish and Turn it into a grid

By which you interpret the entire Bible. Mm -hmm And so you run every verse that's in the

Bible you run it through 70 AD So rather than Jesus Christ being the paradigm of how to interpret the

Bible 70 AD becomes the paradigm. Mm -hmm and that to me is idolatry

Because you're more interested in figuring out at least I was but when I'm saying that You got to understand that the time is near the time is at hand

These things are gonna happen. The whole thing is based on the whole thing is based on every that that is 100 % the major plank the first plank of Any forms of of preterism is the so -called time tax the time the time indicators

That's that's kind of their foundation. Would you say what hooked me? That's what got me Yeah, yeah, which at first it provides very powerful

Explanatory scope saying okay, what would be soon and the hearers of the Apostles and Jesus?

well, you know the destruction of the temple definitely so and so That quickly becomes okay.

The coming of the Son of Man also has to happen during this time frame, right? well

There's one passage in particular That's used and Matthew picks this up all throughout his his gospel

In the coming of the Son of Man and on the clouds of heaven description of Daniel 7 13 and 14 and That passage is referring to as a sense.

I'm number was coming down. That's just that's the coming up He's coming to the ancient days to or before the throne of the ancient of days

And we can get into that that passage, but that's where my work Primarily has been in the last few years in my book

The parousia of the Son of Man. Okay, that'd be a good resource I'll show that out and some scholars are starting to understand that now for the longest time

Daniel 7 13 has been seen as an Ascension passage And there's very many scholars that see it as such but that's

That to me is it's it's quite plain and what what what you do in any type, you know theology or interpretation is operates very much like a

Like a science. Yeah, so you have hypothesis and then you float them through and see how far

You know before you run into any major difficulties and then decide to chuck it because it's just not not working out

I've had many many ideas where I thought I was heading down the right road and I hit a road block

Like okay. Well, let's go back to the drawing board and so interpretation hermeneutics all that kind of stuff operates on that same kind of Thing because you're using the data of Scripture.

Yeah, and then we're reasoning and piecing together Trying to get some sort of narrative going but for the longest time

Daniel 7 13 is seen as a as an as a passage very

Plainly that the text isn't is a ascension of us one like a son of man

Who ascends to this ancient of days who's God? Yeah And he's given all power authority a nation and a kingdom and the obedience of the nations are given to him and What's interesting about that?

Passage. Well, we can get into that later. But that that's my work and my commentary on Daniel Which I'm quite pleased with that's gotten some good reviews

Very happy with with that commentary And there that allowed me to dive in to all of the massive

Ink that's been spilled over Daniel 7 as well as my own background. So, you know, this is

I got my bachelor's in the in 1989 so I've been doing this over 30 30 some years now particularly eschatology, right?

So now you mentioned when we're talking about the Olivet discourse Jesus does bring up things that were said in Daniel So that's very important to this conversation

So the full preterist this and like we were defining preterism is things happening in the past, right?

And so they go further they say well not only was the destruction of the second temple in 70

AD but also Jesus's second coming also happened at that time period and Essentially this what we're seeing now is the new heavens and then the new earth

Yeah, right so at what point do you say that the full preterist compromises the gospel well if this is the new heavens and new earth you can have it and I'm gonna throw my

Bible away and Become like Bart Ehrman or something.

What's what's the point if if this is the new heavens and new earth then

You're deluded yes, and when you have to understand this when you're talking to a deluded mind that that believes that Joseph Smith looked into a hat and And out of that we got the

Book of Mormon You're that's who you're talking to that and so there's no debate.

It's very difficult It's like talking to a Scientologist at that point. It's just that it's

Right because You and I hold to soul scripture we understand that God's Word is a more sure foundation even more than our personal experience

However, there has to be some correspondence Right. I remember listening to you interview with Eli Yala, which

I encourage any viewers to go check out revealed apologetics You were talking about how you're going through a season life where there was death right and it breaks our spirits and Jesus somehow conquered sin and death and yet we see all this still going on in our world

That should that should speak to us. Okay, we can't just Gnosticize everything that we read in Scripture and say

Oh, well, that was a spiritual happening. Oh, yeah, Jesus dealt with sin spiritually. Oh, yeah There's gonna be no more death, but that's really just talking about spiritual death

That's what they end up doing And it is a form of Gnosticism. I've been calling it Neo -Gnosticism

For many years now because that's just what it is the new Gnosticism and They hate that like, you know me saying that that term but in my book misplaced hope

That's sold a little over, you know for 4 ,000 units in the first couple of years that came out in 2002

I'll list some of your books and the show notes after we get done recording just to give good resources to people real quick What do you think about the book?

Have we missed the second coming by Ken Gentry? That little book

I perused through that a couple of years ago, I think it came out a couple years ago small little

Small Yeah, but Ken Who publishes my book?

Why I left As well as Gary DeMar, but both of both of them more so Gary than as Ken Or what

I would call Partial Preterist right like 90 % filled already and I I think that that's see that's the pathway through which

That can if one is not careful, right Dr. Gentry tends to be

You know careful making the distinctions. For example, he doesn't surrender 2nd Peter 3 to 70

AD, which I think is impossible to To read in 70

AD, but that's what they do. They reduce all the language of the apocalyptic right symbol They they reduce language through spiritualizing everything everything's an allegory everything in Revelation has got to mean the

The Legions of the Roman armies and how many just this is that you're connecting the scorpion's tail

And so what does that sound like? Well, it's it's what they accused Dispensationalist of doing newspaper exegesis, but all that they're doing is first century newspaper.

Wow Same thing they're doing the exact same thing as the dispensationalist.

Do they just do do it in the past? Yeah, and they limit great tribulation to a specific very small number of years period of time like the dispensationalist and they

All have nothing approached to the Course The same hermeneutic going on.

They just have everything in the past and everything is everything is very narrowly defined And once you define it in that narrow definition, you can't escape it

You can't get out of it. So they build this this artifice, you know here and then they read everything through that mmm, and It's it's they stranglehold every text.

So nothing means what you What what billions and billions and billions and billions of Christians throughout the

Last nineteen hundred years have understood it It's just this small pocket of people that all of a sudden and and they conflate texts

They bring things in don't quote scholars again. Everybody understands from The day that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70

AD everyone in the world knew that It's it's in the early church, it's it was it's like knowing about 9 -eleven, right?

Well, everyone knows that the Twin Towers fell. That's not the end of the world, but they treat it as the end of the world

That's that's like taking 9 -eleven and saying that's the end of the that was the end of the world

Right, and it and it wasn't wasn't the end. It was the end of two buildings The Trade Towers on they end

Dr. Frost so this actually makes me think about the hard question that I sent you a couple days ago

Would you so since we see that there's a compromising of the gospel that that Jesus is a defeated

King He actually didn't conquer sin and death and we we feel that every single day in this broken world

They say oh, well, you know when Paul was talking about in Romans 8 the the groaning of creation is at hand

However, the tenses are being talked about they shoehorn all that leading up to 70 AD and we're like no, it's impossible we serve a different Jesus who is

King of Kings and Lord of Lords and he is going to Renew his creation that is cursed by sin

Do we consider full preterists a part of a cult? I?

Think they I think they are. I think there's probably like myself Well -meaning people that were in it at the time that gradually and look hundreds have come out of this

I personally have have seen well over a hundred personally That have emailed me or texted me or on the phone

That have come out of this so and I thank God for that Because it takes it takes a real eye -opening work.

I think of the renewing spirit of God to and I that was in my case

So, I think that there's well -meaning people that stumble as I did stumble into this and then you're in this the next thing

I know Misplaced hope came out and I'm on the lecture circuit with Max King who

I consider the father of hyper -preterism Today, no one has no one tops his writing

The book the cross and the parasitia of Christ this mammoth 800 page book.

Well, no one has Don Preston has wrote the most books

But nowhere near what that one book by Max King That was the book that got me in into the whole thing.

And then I talked to Max for a good year in 91 92 That's when

I was born Just yeah, I was calling him They're off and then we met in the conference at 99

The RC scroll conference last days according to Jesus which got me back into it now prior 91 to 99

I Was in my own I had my own six -figure business janitorial business going on A lot of so We were talking about One of the draws to a full preterism is the time indicators right the the the near the the last day

That's the hook and so Do you know anything about the origins of full preterism?

Did it emerge? I've heard some people talked about how it's come out of the restoration movement.

The Campbellites is that is there any validity with that? Yeah You argue those kind of cause -and -effect historical things, you know,

I think it's a It's it's a it's it's the biggest

Real full Treatment of it seems to come out of the 19th century where it gets part where a partial product

Look like J Stuart Russell His book the Pharisee and That was

With together with Milton Terry biblical permaneutics. So and all that Terry's doing is drawing off Russell's work.

Okay, and all that Russell is doing is drawing off Three John's John Gil John Owen and John light who are reformed and Owen and Gil are doing is drawing off of John Lightfoot.

Hmm. So there's not a And most you know

Moses there's a few others that were Really reading probably 80 to 90 percent of the

New Testament was 70 ad but all of these guys still kept a

Robust creedal ism as it came to resurrection of the dead and new heavens new earth

So you would call them, you know partial predators. I would I've used the word hyper partial Wow, that's funny

You may have that's where that's where it really comes into. Yeah, it's tradition. So it's kind of this rationalist hermeneutic

That's that's going on it's no grammatical historical so Read audience relevance and how the original audience first century all of this is kind of stirring around from the late 19th century or late 18th century and really comes in to 19th century and that way and with that you have the rise of higher criticism and all the rest.

Yeah, so it's super new It's fresh on the scene and you made a comment earlier It this goes against billions and billions of Christians over the past 2 ,000 years

And so this is what's very confusing to me. Dr. Frost the full predators that I've talked to as They would claim to be reformed.

They would claim to be sola scriptura Okay. Now I've actually pushed back to them because What they would say is well, we shouldn't look to any creeds that that's not they honest us.

That's not God breathed So just just make an argument from scripture. Just make an argument from scripture sola scriptura, and I've said

Sola scriptura is pointing out that scripture is the ultimate rule of faith in the practice of our life as a

Christian But that assumes that there are other rules like the grammatical historical method of interpretation human reasoning and logic of historical documentation and the creeds and the confessions

They're not infallible and we do measure all those things to the scripture But in my experience full predators would not practically be holding the solo scriptures because they are

Disparaging all other standards and I'm saying okay Well in my mind they are reasoning identically as Church of Christ would which

I'm not sure if you're familiar with that movement the restoration movement They are simp they are essentially so low scripture

It's my Bible and me under a tree no creed, but Christ don't tell me about Alexander Campbell Don't tell me about these other people.

Let's just stick with what the scripture says Let's be a speaker. The Bible speaks and be silent with the Bible silent and at the end of the day

We need exegetical arguments to make our case Absolutely But Christ has been building his church for the past 2 ,000 years and we can even see that God's people have exist ever since the time of Adam, right?

So It it helps to see okay If something is new on the scene just within a hundred years or so That is a good indicator that heresy is creeping into the church.

So what do you think? Why would they appeal to solo scripture in order to say? Well, yeah The the creeds and the confessions have been wrong or they even say that they don't even speak to this issue

Is that true do the creeds and confessions nowhere speak to Jesus already coming in the past?

Yeah, they do They do Well, they look forward the

Apostles Creed and we look forward to life in the age to come. That's a forward -looking

And we believe in the resurrection of the body. Mm -hmm Who shall descend a second time?

So, you know he ascended it into heaven and he shall come again to judge the living in the dead

So yeah, they address it and the reason why they argue against the creeds is because that's what the creeds say.

Mm -hmm. So you have You they've immediately set themselves up against that and not just one or two creeds all every single confession creed

All of them there's not one that does not look forward to These these things resurrection of the dead that we're talking about so they know what they're up against that's why that's why they oppose the creed and then they turn to the

Sola scriptura, and they try to use that And it is what you said.

It's solo scripture. It's Luther and Calvin never meant that And by what you're saying in the

Westminster Confession of Faith, which says that it's the supreme judge There's the well if it's the supreme judge, then it's not the only judge where the word supreme is superfluous

You don't need it. Just say it's the only judge But they're careful not to say that Because there are other judges

Right. It's just this is the supreme. Well, what are the other judges? Well, Calvin's institutes has outlined

His whole book is outlined according to the apostles creed luther's smaller catechism is outlined

According to the apostles creed. That's the that's what makes the subjects of the book of his catechism

So they didn't reject the creed. They didn't do that at all. They operated under the idea of The spirit of the lord is moving in and within the church.

Surely he left us with some sort of witness and Certainly, he would have left us with what would have become an ongoing or a non -growing

Consensus. Yeah That in spite of the fact that we're still tossed to and fro of every wind of doctrine and we have not

Come into the mature perfect man Which is obvious That at least

There is an idea that we are growing And to say that we missed it on this major Fundamental thing that is united in spite of our serious disagreements

And I speak of the orthodox and catholic and protestant faiths um

That is these have united us that's brought us so That should be somewhere rather than start where we're divided start where we are united and where we are united is that he shall come

Again to judge the living and the dead so they opposed that that right there um I tried to deal with that in misplaced hope

And going back over it now. I saw that I just completely fell short, but when you're in it Uh, you think that you're really championing this doctrine sola scriptura because there's been many points martin luther's brought up And I keep pointing out to them that you're not martin luther

Martin luther was a doctor spoke several languages translated languages. He was an augustinian monk.

He was thorough in his theology Uh new equinus and the church fathers backwards and forwards quote him in greek

You could quote him in latin Um extremely well educated which is another thing that they kind of just that they show

You know, they don't really want anything to do with it But I always ask them about sola scriptura

To turn to the very very front of the book Of the bible that they're holding and they'll see this publishing company there

And here's a committee Bible scholars that translated that niv or esv into english

And so you have a bunch of educated guys with a bunch of degrees that Gave them that bible and that you know

That just usually Silences them or they walk away or they say i'm splitting hairs Well, yeah,

I am but your argument doesn't work now. And again, they won't buy this That's why

I said you're like talking to a scientologist at this point, right? Don't like what I tell a lot of people don't get frustrated um with That you're not persuading these people because they're some of them are on a they're on a bin

It's like a it's like an alcoholic on a On bender, you know, they're just gonna drink you can tell

You know, you're gonna cause for and they're gonna drink anything, but they don't care Because they think they're on to something

And i've been there. I had the excitement Uh, I remember this is going back to dr.

Tao, but Again with uh, dr. Gary crampton. We would we'd love to go out to eat.

Um, Dr. Tao was a big big fan of buffets And uh, gary crampton was was there and he said sam,

I understand your argument that the sola scriptura grants

That's that scripture overrides even creeds and councils as it's as the westminster confessional faith says

That they do air That Logically is a possibility.

He said i'll never forget this conversation um He said that's logically a possibility, but you have to account for the experience also in consensus of the church that If your logical possibility is point zero one one one percent

That you might possibly be right. Those are very slim odds Yeah, he goes i'll give you the fact that you have some odds but they're very slim and I remember in my mind because I was a high competitor at the time and dr.

Talbot and Crampton and others were always trying to talk me out of it or challenge. They were always challenging um

But loving me, but they were always challenging. That's why I'll miss. Dr Talbot, he loved me that he always challenged me, but he didn't dismiss me or execute, you know, he didn't

You know, I worked on the Hebrew program and put together a Hebrew primer and he let me grade some papers in Hebrew And he let me work in school.

He caught a lot of criticism for that Um, he just stayed with me because he just knew you're going to get through this but um

He him saying that I remember in my mind that I was so driven by hyper -preterism that I said

So you're giving me a possibility and now Now I think back of the movie dumb and dumber where Jim Carrey asked the uh the lady

Uh, just give it to me. What chance do I have if you and I so you're telling me there's no you know

So you're telling me there's a chance and I remember that conversation when I saw that movie

I'm like Man, i'm dumb. Am I the dumb or the dumber one? Because that's what oh that's what hyper -preterists do.

So you're saying there's a chance. Oh my goodness well I'm glad you

They're they're grasping at straws And I speculate why I get

The idea when you're you have a new concept and you're like at the possibility of it being true.

You're excited It's excited but at some point I think our hearts need to be checked because You know

We're we're not supposed to come up with anything innovative at this point Right.

I understand semper reformanda, but this isn't we're we're You know having groundbreaking new theology if anything semper reformanda is looking back

At at the the good deposit the the once delivered faith to the saints, right?

and so I speculate that there's a lot of pride going on like look at this newfound teaching that I have

And you you all are wrong But you need to come look to me to be able to understand the deeper truths of the gospel and that's the key you can't

Mess with the gospel we can talk about secondary and tertiary issues But we die on that hill about what the good news is who jesus is you gotta believe in the right jesus

And you have to receive that jesus on his terms that he prescribed in faith and so For the sake of discussion, dr.

Frost, let's meet them with scripture. Okay, let's start talking about some of these passages

This is something that I was thinking about and I want to get your thoughts since everything is supposedly shoehorned at 70 a .d

And it's all faction so you're going to get all different kinds of full preterist responses But they all lock together on the second coming already happened

They lock arms with this is the new heavens and new earth And then this one the resurrection of the dead, okay

Now I immediately start thinking about What the apostle paul said in second timothy chapter two

But avoid irreverent babble for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness

And their talk will spread like gangrene Among them are hymenaeus and felidus who have swerved from the truth

Saying that the resurrection has already happened They are upsetting the faith of some now

There's a few key phrases that he's talking about not tertiary issues, but he's talking about gospel truth issues

The fact that he's using irreverent babble um, he's talking about pagan philosophy

Gnosticism that's coming in and corrupting and so he's caused people to swerve from the truth or the faith now

The full preterist would say well, yeah, the second coming hasn't happened yet in 70 a .d All right, and so this is a key point because they believe the resurrection already happened

And so what bull predators have told me is well, we're just disagreeing on the timing Of the second coming it shouldn't be a gospel issue and i'm over here saying wait a second

These two false teachers given the context paul is rebuking them and putting them outside the faith

They got the timing of the resurrection wrong as well And he is he is anathematizing them essentially saying that they are causing people to miss the truths because of this um this type of babbling and so my point is

I think that full preterist if they were being consistent Then they should be anathematizing everyone else because we too

Are disagreeing in their mind with the timing of the resurrection which had already happened

So i'm just saying the timing of the coming and the resurrection because they think it's one event Is a gospel issue according to paul

This is where uh You have to water down So on one hand, they'll castigate the futurists.

They're always against the futurists um, the dispensationalist is their scapegoat for every

Every problem that's on earth is because of how easy um And but at the same time

You mentioned a reformed baptist church looking in there so at the same time they want to join

In with the evangelicals, okay, and and you consider us christians we're evangelicals we're christians just like you are

So on one hand they're doing that and then on the other hand They're said and that's that's the that's the twofold thing going on And it is critical now where I stand now what paul's doing

In that verse in 218 is um We're saying here, uh, anastasian heyday

There he's um uh

There it's How could they say something like this and so the full preterist like don preston will reason well

Obviously paul was teaching a spiritual resurrection How else could they have said it happened already if paul was teaching a physical resurrection

All they had to do is look outside the window and see That's not the case

And he thinks that he's got and that in 90 in the 90s see that that You know, i'm a young Young kid i'm much older now um so that Yeah, yeah, all right, how how could they say paul was preaching a physical resurrection obviously that hasn't happened already

So how could these guys? Uh get into the church. Well paul's not arguing against The nature of the resurrection as taught by hymenaeus but the timing

Passed already and that's all that paul's condemning. It's not the nature because obviously They would have had to have taught a spiritual resurrection to get away with this.

Hmm so That sounds plausible at first And so paul doesn't correct the nature of hymenaeus is teaching on resurrection

But he only corrects the timing However, well go ahead no so well the flip side of this is

No It's understandable read second century gnosticism

How you can spiritualize the resurrection? And clearly they were teaching a spiritual resurrection.

So there's no doubt about that. Hmm Greeks had no problems with spirit spirit leaving the body and spiritual enlightenment and They that was you know

Going off off into heaven and things like that greek literatures read the homer read the homer it's

They they wouldn't have had any issues with that at all The idea of a physical body raised again

That that would have been a bit of a problem. We see that in acts chapter 17 That's that's a bit of a problem sadducees who were kind of rationalists

They had a problem with them. Many jews had a problem with it. Not all of them but many of them did um

You see this at some Faction or group unbelievers perhaps ignorant of god creeped down The corinthian community and saying there is no resurrection of the dead

And that paul was castigating the corinthian believers for tolerating these people Not that the corinthians were saying that but that some were in their midst saying.

Oh, there's no Well, I want to come in real quick and and and I think tell me if you think this is good showing how

They can't just say oh, well, they're being rebuked, but it's not a gospel issue the fact that he's using irreverent babble

But avoid irreverent babble. He talks about how this is spreading like gangrene Right this cancer

Causing people to swerve from the truth now here at the apologetic dog

First timothy 620 is kind of kind of my framework the things that i'm thinking about And so this connects it to the gospel, oh timothy

Guard the deposit entrusted to you. This would be in the gospel deposit avoid the irreverent babble

And contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge for by professing it some have swerved

From the faith grace be with you and so point is Yes, you got to believe in the right jesus receive him on his own terms by faith

And you can't get wrong. I think this this touches on who jesus is jesus is a conquering king

Right and so to say that jesus already came and conquered all these things and now we're living in this restored new heavens new earth

It's wrong. You have compromised the gospel. You you've ultimately made jesus out to be a liar and Um, and then that's where we draw the line

We'd say even the apostle paul says that the timing how you viewed the resurrection which for them they see the resurrection

And um, jesus's return is one event right, I think That's why paul condemns them as much as they as he does is because obviously they are spiritualized the resurrection of the dead and he uses a two

One particle here is just already he uses the word already and then he uses the perfect tense of genome.

I Which is a past event. So there's a real strong emphasis on this already And this idea then that we're raised from the dead

Resurrection has already taken place. We don't know how they were They were doing this, but we know that hymenaeus he's mentioned in first timothy, too

Apparently this guy was traveling around with paul for a little while And and just swerved off into this

Understanding it was probably greek. Um, and just swerved off into this

This understanding of resurrection which again was around the air in and around that time

Uh, and then we see a full development of it in the second century very early on in the second century

And this was this was fought and opposed Um actually banded together it unified the church that that we come to associate with as the church right and If But the gnostics

They they didn't really kick the gnostics out. The gnostics just left the church They didn't just want they didn't want anything to do with but these guys today the gnostics today

They want to join your church and they want to be considered but if that's the case then paul here is condemning with the strongest terms possible

Not that these men had the faith Or not that they had the truth and swerved from it They may have at one time been saying the truth as paul was saying it

But they swerved from the truth which to me means they never believed it It never took it never took root or took hold, right?

So I believe that a lot of the hyper preterists you deal with today are just people maybe raised in church all their lives

They've come to see The absurdities of christianity and they found some sort of a rational little

Nut here that they've cracked and it explains and makes sense of christianity um

And that's all they're not believers. You're not dealing with believers, right? And would I be right in saying this?

Dr. Frost Would I be right in saying if they were being consistent? Then they should turn around and say and you should be outside of orthodoxy outside of faith.

I would be Yeah They should be consistent. It's the timing Of the resurrection and the coming that matters and so if they think we're wrong

They shouldn't be trying to be buddy buddy with us. They should try to be evangelizing us, right?

Some of them do there's a there was a pocket of a michael. Miano who I met in florida when he was just getting in into this um, that was this was 2008 2009 um, and then now he's pastoring with one of the few hyper preterist churches

But he was actually that gung -ho of saying that if you're a futurist or if you believe in this you're denying the gospel

Because he was wanting to be claimed 70 ad with the gospel message and so to deny 70 ad is to deny the gospel

And I said, well that writes off most of the believers of the I mean, it just read off and he didn't care at that point now.

He's He's come around to see that that's not the case today, but there are some

A handful, but you're right if they were consistent um

We are denying an essential core aspect. There's no agreement to get

Disagreeing to agree here. Paul didn't have a disagree to agree issue On resurrection of the dead there was just there was one definition and that was paul's

And you either followed that or you didn't there wasn't Yeah, there's some wiggle room as to what resurrection

There's whether there's wiggle room on what sabbath baptism Yeah We don't have any or elders or the pastor.

Is he an elder? Is he a bit? We don't have enough information um

So we can we can talk about that stuff Yes Yes. Yeah. Yes. There there was only one definition.

Oh, yeah, and you denied it You're done that's it and right that's how they should treat it and that's that's that's how

I treat it I don't believe that they're christians. I don't believe And I say that now

I don't know in terms of election But i'm not god, right, but I know that in terms of the present

And what judgments that I am to make in the present? They're not christians. This is not a christian doctrine

It's a false doctrine. It's a false teaching It's one in which we are told to beware of be alert of don't be deceived by it

You've swerved from the truth You're not walking in the faith That's once handed down and delivered

And if it was if your doctrine of 70 a .d Was what paul's talking about handed down and delivered they did an absolutely horrible job

And not only that but the holy spirit utterly failed So the whole thing is a failure

Um that the holy spirit had to wait around for 15 1600 years before you know

Jesus came again 70. How did we miss that one? Right, so it just destroys the church it destroys every aspect

Of what it is that the church is and stands for that's why many full preterists don't go to church they

They don't believe in church anymore because that's been done away with yeah

It but they but you get these ones that they want to especially the reformed crowd they want to They want to be your buddy.

They were hey, we're brothers Christ and I say to them to their face. No, we're not. No, we're not.

We're not I'm more brother with a roman catholic than I am with you because at least with the roman catholic

I can talk about resurrection and death eye to eye 100 in agreement right

So anyway, that's my rank and well, I understand that because even with the roman catholics, you know

We're going to be able to talk about fundamental things that are important and then we get to You know the gospel of grace and how we receive it by faith apart from our works and accomplishments

We evangelize them right? And so we're trying to be consistent So this is the point that i'm wanting to kind of just kind of re -emphasize is consistency because in my conversations with full preterists there, you know, they they want to argue they demand that you

You answer all of their questions to their satisfaction And you got to realize quickly.

I want to encourage the viewers. It's not up for to you to persuade them because um,

I I tried to handle these very delicately with some of these these men sam man I'm starting to read it.

Please talk me off of this cliff because I think i'm a heretic And so i've had those hard conversations with people praying with them saying hey i'm going to try to be

You know gracious with them and try to search for these things and then over time I've seen that the the flip switch just saying oh man

This is true and the the whole church leading up past 2000 years have got it wrong

And the dynamic of those conversations are now very different and so Consistency is huge.

And so I just want to say that if full preterists were being consistent They should view us as anathema. They should be evangelizing us unless They conclude universalism

Please explain to us. Dr. Frost why so many full preterists? end up being

Universalist, is that a consistent entailment of their position or should they be concluding differently like the complete opposite of universal damnation?

What are some of the issues going on there? Well, the devil is destroyed Death and hades is destroyed

There's no more world the devil's already and the Gehenna ad the judgment happens the devil's thrown into the fire the death death and hades is already

What does that do? What does that do to spiritual warfare here now? There is no spiritual Warfare talk if you ask don preston about spiritual warfare, he said there isn't

The the spiritual forces have been subjective under the feet of the church under the feet of christ.

They've been done away with There are no principalities and powers and demons And so I guess we don't need to put on the whole body body armor of christ anymore well,

I mean if you want to take that as a An example from the past maybe and you know, but not like they were doing in the new testament

That bothers me you have you have to go down that road you have to go down the road um in ephesians, which is why

I was We I pastored the church and we did all of the

Because we were just so wanting to be accepted as even bill So we we made bylaws and I drew up a big thing in a constitution and bylaws

We had a notary republic and sent all this up to tallahassee there to be recognized

We weren't 501c, but you don't have to register as 501c to be a tax exempt organization or function as a church

You just have to function regularly or have regularly and then appointed, you know, um clerics or elders or whatever

And then you're a church in florida same in indiana. You just count it as a church if you can demonstrate all that But anyway, we dotted our eyes frost our t's we went through a presbyterian form of elders and I Accepted the

I believe I had a call on my life in terms of a call of christ what we call

For that and reformed and presbyterian ecclesiology And then there's the call of a congregation.

So I had that And so then we wanted to go through Ordination And we had to have two already ordained elders.

So there was a One that was pca That was a full predecessor and then there was another ordained elder out of the rca who was also full

So I had my two elders. I had two presiding elders So but because we were

Heretical in view of the westminster confession faith We had to establish an independent but there

I just drew off of the work of john bannerman um in his the two -volume church of christ, which

I had to read a Whitfield and devour that and then you have to give a defense of that and book reports in the whole nine yards and Bannerman made the note that very early on in the reformation.

What do you do if the only ordaining body is the path of church? What do you do? How do you start a church?

You have to have apostolic succession or you're You're not legitimate

That's a very powerful argument um in 16th 17th century. So how do you how do you how do you start church?

They thought long and hard about that. Well, what are the marks of the church? You know, what how what is ordination?

Does it have to be an apostolic success? So anyway all of that kind of stuff but the main critics

Of our congregation Were full preterists because in ephesians it's stated that God has given gifts

And He gave some to be apostles prophets evangelists pastors to prepare

God's people for the works of service so that the body of christ may be built up until it's time statement which it is

Until we reach the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the son of god and become pure attaining

To the whole measure of the fullness of christ. That's 70 ad Then we will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by waves

Um, we will speak of the truth and love grow up through the head that is in christ to the whole body

That's joined together in all seven Well, that's already done in 70 ad which is obviously paul's being eschatological.

He's looking forward And that's all prophecy is fulfilled Then why do

I need prophets evangelists? Teachers pastors. Why do you need it today? now

I tried to argue that see When I was in it, I I can't

I had my bachelor of theology degree before I became Uh hooked into hyper preterism full preterism

And so I already had a groundwork foundation laid Theologically and I had two great mentors.

Dr. Longino and dr Robinson, these were two great wonderful teachers that Um really meant really mentored me a lot.

And so I was grounded but I Also took greek and fell in love with the greek language in 91 and 92

And just fell in love with it been reading it ever since just fell in love with greek so And i'm a young budding

You know neo scholar, you know Really, you know and people are my peers are telling me this and so i'm you know

Letting that go to my head and all this bunch of other stuff so i'm coming into through reading gentry and Gary north and and demar and that's that kind of is the gateway through which and then

I got a hold of max king and that Wanting to be somebody that challenges, you know, oh, this is challenging

So how how can we have this doctrine and keep? Evangelicalism and historic christianity together.

That was my whole motivation. That was everything going into it and again

In the 90s I was operating a business you have kids and that consumes everything.

So right You have kids that's the end of that So, you know, you got to go out and make money and I did

And so it was all of this was put back to backburner But in 98 and 99 with r .c.

Sproul coming out and mentioning max king I was blown away that r .c. Sproul would mention

Little max king and ed steven that that got me back into it. And then I met the kings and they published my book and then 2001 and then the next thing

I know i'm Do i'm involved in in 2003 we established a church And so it was like a whirlwind

That just happened to me and everyone's inviting me to come to their conferences to speak and all this other stuff

So i'm like, yeah, you paid for the trip. Sure. I'll go Yeah, you know I'll go. Okay but my motivation was always to That this enhances and and and brings the evangelical faith into a progressive understanding

And of of the fullness of the kingdom of god and my post -millennialism Really kicked in You know that jesus has conquered that he's conquered everything.

We're more than conquerors and over the next 10 000 20 000 years

We're going to be the only kids in town We're the only religion left because all the other religions are built on an eschatology

That time will time itself will defeat You can't have mormonism 20 000 years from now on earth

It's an eschatology religion. It's the latter -day saints Job's witnesses is the same thing

Islam is an eschatology religion built on becoming imam and that very soon and You can't have islam around for 20 000 years.

So in my thinking Post -millennialism I thought well

We'll be the only ones left so we're going to evangelize the world

For how long? After after 20 000 years or whatever give or take 10 000

How long does this go on until new heavens and new earth which is fulfilled by the

Or for infinity so you can see where we start pushing around 2005 2006 2007 i'm

Have my master's degree now and I have two master's degrees so I'm pushing the envelope as a scholar.

I'm Let's let's operate within the bullfighter's world, but let's push The full let's push this envelope as scholarships should always be pushing the envelope.

I might be wrong Is the great question the scholar always has on his mind

What if i'm wrong? So I want to falsify my own view keep going at it keep attacking

And so I did And there are the problems like infinity. That's the one that came up Is this going to go on forever?

Wait a minute. Now even science says the sun will burn out in like five point whatever year billion years

You know entropy So i'd have to say that god By his divine power is going to Is going to continue to feed in the power to generate the universe as we now know which will never change for infinity

Well, you can see where the problems start Because i've had enough greek philosophy now and realizing that the idea that the idea let me let me chime in real fast because We've been talking about consistency here for a few moments and I want to continue to look at some more of their proof texts and get you to Look at them

But consistency is everything and and we hopefully can see at this point full preterism is a different worldview

Okay And so when we deal when when I evangelize the atheist, um,

I want to think very presuppositionally I want to I want to show internal defeaters For any worldview, um that rivals the knowledge of god, right?

We were to tear down strongholds destroy arguments that rival these things and take every thought captive to christ

And so one way we do that is by saying let's hypothetically grant your worldview And if it's internally contradictory to itself and breaks its own standards, then it must be false if we hypothetically say it's true

Then by its own standards if it self -contradicts then it must be false So I want to talk about this idea of internal defeaters for full preterism

And this was one of the things that intrigued me most about your paper full preterism and the problem of infinity

I actually think that this is a true defeater for full preterism Now I do want to return back to some of their proof texts in a moment, but since we're talking about consistency um

And then kind of some of the things that you started noticing that things had to go on forever

And in my conversation with full preterist We start talking about the last day the end of the age and they make everything covenantal

It seems well, this is talking about covenantal israel And so it has to be talking about the end of god's covenant with these people which every time they see the word end

It has to mean 70 ad Okay, so I want to in a moment I want to talk about at least two verses that mention the end in the old testament

But we do see in the olivet discourse the end of the age Then in the great commission i'll be with you and lo even to the end of the age well, the full preterist is thinking that's 70 ad that's the end that jesus has in mind there, but I think it's because If they leave the door open for this being the end of time

Then their position is less compelling Remember jesus says that no man can come to the father unless the father draws him and I will raise him up on the last day well

Classically, we understand this to be the end of time where god is going to judge the living and the dead and and set up this brand new kingdom essentially

But like I said, they redefined the word end right to be the end of 70 ad

And then every time you say end at 78 Yes And so then you have mankind procreating into infinity right

And so tell us the problems that I want to encourage people to go read and check out dr

Frost's paper, uh full preterism and the problem infinity, but please give us some highlights.

How does that? implode in on itself How does mankind's infinite procreation actually damage some of god's attributes?

There's numerous Books um philosophers in history of philosophy that with greek culture and how um

It's operon in greek Which you translate as unbounded or without bound without limit and so it was always

Always being added to foreign, you know ad infinitum, so it's

For infinity, so it's it's a it's a numeric and it's chronological and it's it's it never ends

Unfortunately, nothing can be defined If there's if there's a true infinity then eventually everything is going to mean everything

Language about now the greeks this was what one philosopher called And the problem of infinity was a wrecking ball the greek philosopher and they they hated it because they couldn't

How do you get around it if you think about lay in bed at night? Um unfortunately the king james version translators used

Infinity or god is infinite And some of the divines use the word infinite, but they weren't

As dr. Talbot and many others have shown they weren't finding it the way the greeks defined it instead with augustine

Who wrestled with this? Is that god is not infinite as the greeks suppose?

He's eternal So it's not a quantity. It's quality And then like everything else of the attributes of god, we leave it at that because I can't like I can't comprehend

I can't go beyond But I can logically state God is not infinitely progressing

Now here you get into process theology With whitehead and the others see they they took infinity

Literally and then applied it to god. And so god is in process Naturally But that's heresy, you know, that's you know, we don't we don't we don't believe that The scriptures are clear.

God is not in process. He does not learn He doesn't there's nothing that he does not know

It's the scriptures are clear that he knows everything from beginning to end 70 ad

That's how absurd it is From beginning to 70 80 and some of them will actually say that because they realize if you go beyond 70 ad with the knowledge of god

You that's you've lost See you can't strangle hold all of this

Into one bit of period of time. It's these issues that have kept men to the frustration of hyper preterists full preterists

You know, why doesn't ken gentry? Why doesn't why doesn't gary demar come out and say why they're so close?

They're so close It's because of these issues and the absurdity of them that they won't go and plus the scriptures are

Unanimously clear on what resurrection of the dead is and means you just have to look to jesus and say empty tomb

Now they get around that by saying well, he was the exception Which is absurd the

The whole resurrection of the dead to come is based on the first fruit resurrection. He's not the exception.

He's the rule, right? He's he's he's he's what it will look like he demonstrates it he says

I am the resurrection he's the definition of it empty tomb self -same body

However transformed doesn't matter how blown in the wind of the dust for how many thousands of years eaten by lions and crapped out by Rhinoceroses 5 000 years ago.

It doesn't make any difference. That is not an obstacle to god to raise the body out of the dust so Infinity if god knows all his people everyone

Written in the book of life To which you could add one more Okay.

Now he knows to which you could add one. Okay. Well now he knows so so he could never know his elect

He would never know Yeah, I can't use the word all so I had a conversation with Uh, we wrote a book.

I co helped write an article for house divided with mike sullivan David green these are two reformed guys cal so -called calvinist full predators

And then it was in that year. I actually Was seeing these problems and I was talking to them about it

Look, i've got a problem here guys. I know I just wrote a book with you, but I might have to change my mind and I said

You know infinity. Well The answer was from them. I'll never forget this conversation

Um, I said that's that's a that's a antinomy it's a contradiction you can't say god knows all his people each and every one

Because you can always add another one to that and They said well it's a antinomy or a paradox to our mind and I said but Not only is that bad hereby, you know, gordon clark kicks in and van till you know that kicks in um,

I said But our whole foundation of being full preterists is logical consistency

The whole reason why we've started on this is because he said that it's near and all of matthew 24 70 ad therefore

Logically without contradiction first thessalonians 4 1st corinthians 15 all of revelation

You can't just pick and choose and you know, take out what you want But so our whole thing was we were called consistent preterists right full letters and yet you want to end it in an antinomy

I'm not buying that automobile. It's a lemon So it was this was

A mind -numbing time for me that year before I did finally state

I'm And I prayed I was agonizing You know because my whole reputation was built on this

I sold my house in my business um So I praise god praise god that you were good.

Dr. Talbot was right there with me right there saying see I told you So I listened to an interview you did a while back and you brought up ecclesiastes 3 11

Let me read this verse and then I would like for you to talk about it a minute So we understand the preacher a lot of us, you know feel like it's solomon here

And he's realized everything under the sun is vain right unless it's in submission to fearing god

Honoring him the chief end of man is to glorify god and to enjoy him forever

That's kind of the grand conclusion and then he says this like to me When the full preterist says everything's covenant well

Solomon is appealing to the imago de here all of mankind under the sun Right if it's if it's apart from glorifying god

It's going to end in futility whether you have a lot of wealth or you have nothing. It's just going to amount to Dust and it doesn't matter unless it's to obey god and his commandments.

And so my point is The the covenant get out of jail free card does not work that this is covenant language when he says that god he has made

Everything beautiful in its time Also, he has put eternity into man's heart the imago day

Yet so that he cannot find out what god has done from the beginning to the end

Now have you ever met anybody say that end here is actually talking about 70 a .d Yes Yeah Yeah, larry siegel don preston.

Oh, they they have to um, can you explain more than Why do they why do they have to make the end every time mean 78?

What other end is he talking about? The end of history Then there is a last day see that you can see where the dominoes now,

I don't want to uh you know, there's a there's the slippery slope and The slippery slope thing is because there's your connections that you're making you're not

You know, you're you're reaching and so, you know slippery slope um

But that this isn't slippery slope this this is my logical syllogism

The premises that I had within them are now being contradicted If I go the other route, so that's a different thing that's going on My system is being is being challenged because if this end here is not 70 a .d.

Then what end? Is it and it's obviously this text Is in in the hundred or so commentaries because this was one of the key verses

I was just reading scouring anybody somebody to say Some scholar somewhere and in some obscure paper written in a german theological journal or some dutch paper

Something let me find some more. Well, they all agreed everyone was understanding um that this passage starts off with As it states for everything there is a season and a time

And a time for every purpose under hand a time to born a time to die time to plant time to pluck up So it's quite obvious.

He's talking about time I don't know, you know, there's no other way around it.

So And then he talks about the labor of man and i've seen trouble which god has given The sons of man to be exercised but he has made all things good in their time

Here it is again has delivered the world to their consideration Yet so that man cannot find out the work that god has done even from beginning

And to end or the a good translation. He has set eternity in their mind

And so this doctrine here is where calvin would come in with incomprehensibility But there's there's the incomprehensibility of god

I can understand some things that god has revealed we can ascertain or Apprehend, but we can't we can't

Comprehend the depth of who god and never will and never will even in glorified brains

Because there's a qualitative difference between who we are and who god is Right. It'll take eternity for me to even answer an insta grave.

So Which I have a question I have a question here because I think

I think that's the whole thing Is ask ask ask them what other end would there be and if there is a true historical end?

If there is another end other than 70 a .d. And it's referring to time then there is a last an actual last day

Which god would have to know Yeah, and would also be in terms of his purpose

Now we're back to ephesians 1 yep and there it just and I Read that verse in john 6

I don't know how many times and it just leaked out. It's just the words of jesus. I They left out of that page last second.

I will raise up all and I thought here's my problem last day end of history

Infinity and here's all can't have infinity with it and it just bang it and I I remember

Just I I just went to my knees and I thought oh my gosh, how could I have not? How could

I not have have seen this it all came together last day all

Wow So we're seeing there's a contradiction if we're trying to hold on to the classical view of god's omniscience

With having an infinite number of days in created time because god would never know it

Now i've had full predators to say well god's sovereign that answers the question and we're like It can't god would never know his own you can just say he's sovereign but in our model

Right god has declared the end from the beginning and so you have space time god transcends that And he exhaustively knows it because he has purpose in all things

So that makes sense of how god knows all of his people that he can make prophecies and predictions things like that But we're dealing with a completely different model and you can't give the same answer to say.

Oh well god's sovereign When you have an infinite number of people and possibly essentially possibilities, you know at this point

God can't could not know it Comprehensively, so you would have to choose a different route and be an open theist or something like that in order to retain your your 70 ad but I think in ecclesiastes

It's so clear. This is an end of time. And so this would impact how we would see other verses in the new testament

Um all that the father has given me. I will raise him up on the last day. What would that mean?

So ecclesiastes i've heard this one objection, dr frost ecclesiastes 1

Verse 4 says a generation goes and a generation comes but the earth remains forever

See, there's your infinity right there. What would you say to that? Well, it does

We believe in the new heavens and a new earth And we believe that this present earth will be transformed and restored right

And again we get into this notion of What does it mean?

here in terms of Eternity So it does not mean infinity that's you have to define the two terms eternity as This this was very startling in the studies

That that we were doing Um and augustine and others you cannot define eternity as you would define the greek notion of infinity because that's and the greatest place

Where this is seen is the king james translation The stars are innumerable

Who can who can who can know? And the king james uses infinity

But the hebrew doesn't use that word it's just you know who they're they're incalculable meaning by I can't

I can't count that. I mean I could but who's gonna stand there, you know

Right, they're not truly exhaustive So I can't yeah i'm not and he says this to abraham count the stars if you're able

And we're not we don't even see all the stars You know, so, you know, we got like what hubble and stuff out there now that we don't even know

This is what I think we'll enjoy for eternity. I think this is what god has the cosmos for us this this

You know eternal space. Yeah But then the next verse says

But he numbers them and knows them by name Well, that's not infinity right

Because if god can't count them then he doesn't know everything and he's not god and i'm throwing my bible and trashing them

And i'm and i'm, you know going out and having a very strong two or three bottles of uh pints of jim bean

So we're talking about the the issue by the way, i'll joke that solomon says eat drink and be married

Yeah We're wanting to be consistent and so we're doing what we would call an internal critique on full preterism they

They ought to believe because I have you got factions upon factions Uh full predecessor says well,

I don't believe that that's just that full preterism and that doesn't disprove full preterism To say that okay, maybe god isn't omniscient

Well at some point when you start giving up so many fundamentals to the faith

That should be an indicator that you are on the wrong train, right and if you're having to give up god's omniscience

That should be a huge red flag. And so for the people that believe that um that for the people that believe that The end doesn't have to mean 70 ad you should if you're a full preterist then you should be reading

The end as as 70 ad now most do But if you're not and you just say well that doesn't disprove full preterism

Well, then we would come back and say well you're not being consistent because you should And so ecclesiastes 3 11 is a good text that we've been talking about to show look god

God created the beginning to the end and everything in between. It's beautiful in his timing

Um, and so there's another scripture. I would like to bring up along these same lines Uh, because I think this is so important I want to equip people to show that that defeater that it's a logical impossibility if we were to grant full preterism to be true

It would contradict itself and be false Um, so isaiah 46

I want to look at verses 10 and 11 Um, it's a really similar concept and the objection that i've gotten is oh, this is covenantal.

This is covenantal And I want to say that that actually doesn't work. That's not an answer. It's not it's not really an answer

And if if I even say fine, even if it is covenantal it still is not going to give you what you want it to mean so And it's like a dispensationalist.

Well, you're not rightly dividing the word of truth. It's you know, that's just it's dispensational They they have dispensational tendencies, but just at a different extreme.

Yeah, it's the same It's the same thing. It's like reading the bible through the system lens The bible is not

It's not that nice to us, yes It's and I love that because that's why you keep coming back to the text.

Like did I just read that right? Yeah I thought I knew that verse man. Apparently we just did this with joe

Uh went back through now i'm translating work Oh my mind is blown away. I'm like, ah,

I don't i've read job a hundred times and I don't like What the heck is going on here? Hmm But anyway, yeah

So real similar to ecclesiastes 3 11 We got god I am god and there is none like me declaring the end aka 70 ad from the beginning and from ancient times things

Not yet done saying my counsel shall stand and I will accomplish all there's that all word you like all of my purpose

Calling a bird from prey from the east and a man from the my counsel from a far country

I have spoken and I will bring it to pass. I have purposed. There's your telos

There's an end that history is going to And I will do it. So here's here's the pushback that i've got

Well, it's covenantal jeremiah Um, if you just look earlier in the context it's talking about the house of jacob in verse 3

Listen to me. Oh house of jacob all the remnant of the house of israel who have been who've been born by me

From before your birth carried from the womb. So jeremiah, this is clearly talking about israel

Um, and in the end here god has declared the end from the beginning of god's covenant people

And so i've thought on that i've chewed on that son Yeah, and i've thought

Okay, well even if We grant that this is covenantal

We understand that god's people have been around all the way since the time of adam in the great hall of faith in hebrews 11

At least starts with abel right because we understand adam and eve are in a unique case So fine.

Oh house of jacob, even if we continue to go in verse 13 here I bring near my righteousness

It is not far off and my salvation will not delay I will put salvation in zion for israel my glory

So fine if you want to make it covenantal great, but we're talking about god's people of all time we're not merely seeing a

Ethnic people here or we're talking about the people of god and so guess what?

The end here would have to be all of space time all of created time is

Covenantal and that's where it's so important to understand doctrines like justification sanctification and god's work in regeneration

Right, but in romans 8 all things are working together for our good

Right for our sanctification to be conformed more and more into the image of christ and it's ultimately for god's glory so um, you know,

I have arminians Provisionists say well god is just simply acknowledging what's going to happen and I point out no no

He is declaring it. He is he is going to accomplish his purpose and his will that's what the text is talking about So god's omniscience is involved here

God knows all things because he has declared the end from the beginning.

What do you think about some of that? Well, you go to isaiah 45 You know get number one get rid of the chapter marker first verse this is the scroll

So isaiah 45 21 Come and consult together who has declared this from beginning

This was told from this that time have I not the lord and there is no god else besides me

Just god and the savior. There's none else beside me Look unto me And be you saved all the ends of the earth

For I am god and there is none else I've sworn by myself.

My word has gone out of my ears or declaration and shall not return Every knee shall bow unto me

Every time now paul quotes this it can't be every knee if it goes on into infinity. Yeah, is that is that israel?

Only Only There is a spiritual israel, but that's that's the saints of all time

Yeah, he's every navel and this paul's in that context is writing to a gentile church

And then he says righteousness and glory shall come from him And all that remove them from the reborders shall be ashamed who's all them that remove.

Oh babylon this area It says in the lord shall all the seed of israel be justified and shall glory but then it keeps going here's bell

And nebo has fallen their idols were upon the beasts and upon the cattle and he keeps going on They stoop and bow down together so He talks about a remnant

Now remnant can't imply all Israel you have a remnant of israel and Then he says you're killing it dr frost.

Yeah, he says it again I will carry you and I will say And then the next verse now that we're into 46 to whom have you likened and made me equal compared me

I mean, he's telling israel. Do you know? I started you as a nation, but do you know who I am?

I mean, do you know do you know what it is that i'm doing this is to for those who

Have faith in god to increase Their faith that he's not just some local deity of israel.

Do you not know who I am? Do you not every knee will bow down to me and then he? uh

Tells them I am god and there's no god besides me verse nine. There's none. So he repeats it and then he says

Here's who I am. Let me reveal this to you I know the beginning of the things The all the way to the end the ancient times the things that are not yet done

My counsel which the implication is my counsel determined the beginning everything in between All the way to the end and it will stand which is what he just said in 45

What what word comes out of my mouth will not return to me boy See, so he's not talking about covenant with israel under moses.

He's expanding and saying israel I'm bigger than what you think I am Bell and nebo they bow down to me.

They're not like worthless. What are you guys afraid of? And then verse 46 11 I'll call a bird of prey from the east and a man of my counsel

From a far country now, that's not an israelite Right, right, right.

Exactly. That's the council of the lord. So i've spoken Yes, I've purposed it and I will do it so then

If you introduce the idea Here that the end that's talked about is the end purpose, which is all in ephesians chapter one

Then what other it's not purposes of god is purpose So from adam to the last day is the purpose of god unfolding in time and space of history until revelation 10

Time shall be no more and there'll be no more death. Why because my purpose is accomplished. What is the purpose?

To bring forth the humanity that has created a little lower than myself Creatures they are creatures, but just a little in glory and in honor

Whose wills no good and evil and they have not even the slightest inkling to do evil

They can't even be tempted to do you i'm like by beginning creation

But bringing him to the end of perfection and let me give you an example of a perfect human being jesus christ i'm going to make mentioned

They can't do that. You mentioned ephesians one God is working all things together after the council of his will that's isaiah

Right, and I mean paul is confirming what isaiah said and he used that word all I think I think i'm understanding your point better You don't if you have an infinite world here in this created plane

Then you don't get all because it keeps going keeps going and there's not a telos. There's not a purpose

There's not an end in goal. It's just open -ended And that affects how god sees

His created order one objection i've heard is well When we are glorified don't we exist aren't we created and don't we exist into infinity?

And I think what we would say I think what we would say is time out time out We're not talking about same things.

We're not talking about yes, we will always retain our createdness but we are stepping into an eternity a an existence a qualitative existence that um

Is not operating within time and I think that's key because time is a created thing go read genesis 1 1

Right go read psalm 33 time is a created thing by god

And so it actually contradicts the attributes of god if you have this creative plane going on Infinitum, right?

Tell me what you think about this. I've told people we would not let Atheists use an infinite regression of reasoning, right?

You have no foundation to get where we're at and where you want to go And so the the infinite procreation is almost like the problem of regression in reverse

Right. There's no end right in view. And so you don't have a tell us you don't have a purpose you don't have god

Exhaustively knowing all things and then there's other verses that say all will all all will go under judgment before god

Well, not all because you keep adding one keep adding one keep adding one. So you really have to give up Omniscience if you're going to be a full preterist and if you want to be consistent, is that fair?

Yeah, you're you're an apologetic. So you understand that every single world view um, and there's non -christian philosophers quote them

Uh has to have a teleology you have to in other words a purpose even atheism, yeah, even if they're even if it's a a blind chance

That we all die there's no meaning And the sun will burn out in five billion years

So but so what's the tell us that what's what's what what's the aim or goal of the well eat drink merit?

Get as many toys as you can Pleasure Hedonism.

Yeah, I mean, you know Family, you know, whatever, you know that makes you feel good kids have kids get married

That makes you feel good knock yourself out. But you know, you're not gonna get any Boards or anymore Now physics wrestles with beginning and end.

This is a giant It's a It is the problem the beginning of time and then the idea of the end of time because physics and philosophers of science will say if If infinity is what it is, then there is no knowledge

How could we even begin to approximate? Right that we're Even close you'd have to know that you're close

But if it's infinite Then our chances of being right is one out of infinity

That's Because it destroyed knowledge it destroys the knowledge of the gods That's why you have the skeptics and the epic coming around saying well the gods are not

I don't know They're doing and and so greek roman culture just implodes and then here comes one who is eternal

Incarnate in time and space bringing heaven and earth Answering it and it exploded the greek world

Because now we have the answer his name is jesus christ. Wow, and the eternal logos

The logo and they picked that word, you know, john picks that word Because that's a loaded word in greek philosophy at that time.

That was a loaded word And here he's saying logos becomes matter

Right. I'm, sorry. I'm having tons of So I feel like I feel like at this point you have decimated the worldview of full preterism

And it's being consistent with god's omniscience to Understanding the implications of not only should full preterism

When they look at the word end they ought to conclude 70 a .d But then they have to have an infinite procreation and if you're going to be consistent

You've got to give some attributes up of god, namely his omniscience Which touches his sovereignty so many things and so why have you on here?

You have to give up logic and reason You do because it reduces everything to absurdity at that point and that's why you should abandon it with I didn't want to abandon like I said,

I was making money, you know with church. I was I was going on tours. I was selling books. I was

Touring around with don preston, uh, who is the guru today the go -to guy and he's not reformed

So I find it funny about reformed people You know the main the main group of people in hyper preterism or full preterism just by the majority is our church of christ arminian creedal denying independent church

Just so far away from what formed is that's why I find it funny now um

I want to I want to shift gears on you real quick. Um, you've been so gracious with your time

I'm not even sure how long we've been going i've been having about two hours Well before we hop off and wind down I want to think through a couple proof texts um

Daniel 12 2 i've been told that we cannot give an account for That at all.

I'm, sorry on my end um So why? Let me read daniel 12 2

Okay, and you tell me why they think this is such a slam dunk point in terms of the resurrection of the dead and how this has to be talking about um

You know the army that comes in 7 ad to destruct the temple So this is what we we see in daniel talking about the end of time or the time of the end

Right verse 2 says and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake some to everlasting life

And some to shame and everlasting contempt now help me out

As as you continue to read daniel chapter 12, they say that this has to be 70 a .d.

Why do they say that and where are they wrong? Well what they're doing Here is that because of the language um obviously the language is

Found in the new testament. So michael you go to revelation 12 And then you see this phrasing um

Shall not be such as has been and shall be No more.

So that sounds like matthew 24 And then daniel has already mentioned

His phrasing abomination desolation was picked up by jesus And so jesus has mentioned that and then matthew mentions daniel mark mark omits it

Mark matthew's the only one that mentions daniel mark just omits it and then Uh matthew has great tribulation

And mark just has tribulation so great tribulation Is a phrase that's used it's used in nehemiah nehemiah says oh lord.

We are in great tribulation. It's not a buzzword It's not a technical term. It's um

Ukraine right now is in great tribulation. That's the word that I would use for whatever calamity is Has hit them it's very common, but the distance since the popular dispensationalism we've turned great tribulation

Really? Yeah, the holocaust was bad in world war ii. It was really bad and a lot of people died and suffered and everything but the great tribulation is really gonna

Um, we've seen as much suffering as as bad as it can get there's You know people have suffered on this earth as much as you can suffer

There's no there's no greater suffering that can go on that that somewhere somehow in history people have not experienced

So the word doesn't see that's where their dispensationalism and popularism carries into this kind of stuff

But the wording is not even the same But anyway, they you know because of the similarities Of the wording and it says at that time

Michael shall stand up with great friends And for the children of israel And the time came such as never from the time that nations began

And that's one translation The esv has never has been a time since there was a nation till that time.

What nation is he talking about? The hebrew the hebrew is clear. It's talking about israel israel as a nation

And this is a phrase that's used Often when you start when you look up this phrase in the old testament

It's used a few times such as the times it was never was from since the nation Until that time so it's not going back

To the founding of creation, but it's going back to the founding of the nation Well mark goes back to since the creation of the world when god created all things

So it's not the same And this is the common phrase i've never seen anything like this before in my life since there was since i've been born

That's kind of but jesus is going back to creation So But at that time your people will be delivered

Everyone whose name is found written in the book of life. And then it says And many of those who sleep in the best of the earth shall await

And some to everlasting life and some to same everlasting contempt so that What's stated there?

Is that the time of the deliverance and the time of the this trouble must be the time of resurrection

I could see where someone could say that many have however

Many scholars halvin included Hebrew scholars Have stated that dramatically no

At that time mark will arise and deliver the people and I believe he's talking about the second century bce and the seleucid

Domination and he's referring to the king who dies. So now you got to go back to the king because at that time

This is where you can really have fun with full preterists You want to have some fun with um verse 11 45 and he shall pitch

Plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas and the glorious mountain

And he that's this king will come to his end And none to help him at that time

So whenever this king dies At that time is the time of the resurrection if you're going to be consistent with your interpretation here

And then just watch them fall all over themselves as to who this king is You can have a lot of fun

Because you know at that time is directly connected to there's not a hebraist in the world and I read

Hebrew and Have been doing so since 1999 Under two

I took two years of Hebrew um Bruce Waltke was my last teacher right a year under him and and fell in love with him

But at that time is referring back so you want a time text, okay Here's a time text that connects you directly to the death of this king.

So at the death of the king Michael will arise deliver the people and raise them from the dead So who is the king that dies when the people?

Are raised from the dead in 70 ad and here They'll bend every rule that they want to apply in other places

They bend them here and I love that the fact that you're pointing out consistency and here they just go all over the place

Well, it's herod Well, herod didn't die in 70 ad Herod How the heck do you get herod out of daniel 11,

I don't that's crazy Um, they come up with all kinds of or double fulfillment.

Oh now you sound like a dispensation You're just employing who now you're just doing why not triple or quadruple or or gazillion?

Uh interpretations, I mean why in there we have infinity So why not just for infinity have it fulfilled, you know

This is where you begin to see the arbitrary and the bias and That you're operating in a in a worldview.

Whereas me I'm exploring the text It doesn't say at that time

Many who sleep in the dust of the earth be the praising there's at that time. Michael shall rise.

Okay At that time the people will be delivered That's that means they're saved out of the hand of the enemy look that word up it's used several times

Who are those who are delivered from the hand of the end? Well, everyone who's found written in the book

Well good Hmm, who are those who are the who are those found written in the book?

Well, there's those are the ones who will rise unto life everlasting Go to 12 13

When is the Rising, when is this rising? But go your way daniel till your end or that's an expression for when you die

And you will rest rest comes after death in heaven and you will

Stand again, you will be raised at the end of the days

Or another way of saying that is last day in the last day

You will rise So what happens? Well, I die And then I enter into the rest

And then I await resurrection at the last day Let's put the revelation give the souls under the all, you know

They're crying out and they're told to rest blessed are the dead for now on they shall rest their work shall follow

When they rise again from the dead when is that at the last day So that's the resurrection or is daniel to go to the end in 70 a .d.

So daniel's gonna live until the end That doesn't make any sense so the end here must be death and then he's gonna rest

And then he's gonna stand again At the end of days or the last day which I guess would be 70 a .d

So daniel was raised from the dead in 70 a .d. And all the old testament saints, I guess they all were

So, where were they prior to that? And this is where it gets You you get into this theology

See you understand this because you do apologetics and i've watched some of your your your stuff So you you know, you know what you're you know what you're doing

You understand that I can't talk about resurrection of the dead without talking about regeneration without talking about israel without talking about creation

And then I got to talk about adam You can see this in romans Eventually paul's heading to adam.

He's got to go there. I can't talk about sin and redemption redemption. Why? Well, we got to go back to genesis

Why? well that's So The full preterist again,

I had my bachelor of theology so you can see why I was saying look The full preterism is true.

We've got to run it through the encyclopedia Of christian theology and church history.

You know what we have to account for 2 000 years, too What have we been doing here?

What's god doing? Should we be republicans? Should we vote? uh

Uh, should we have a church? Should we not have a church? uh should see

You have the hyper preterist has to answer these questions too to be relevant in a world view

Where are we going? What's the future? What what and if you can't tell me? teleology

Well, then why am I doing this? Well for the glory of god Does that have anything to do with creation or the trees or in the environment

I have a question Oh, so they can't answer this stuff. I have help me out here so You know

The the full preterists that i've talked to They talk about the new heavens and new earth They go to isaiah

Text isaiah 65 and I think isaiah 13. I can't remember all the texts, but they they make this hard definition

The new heavens and new earth only pertains to covenant israel ethnic israel

And and so my first thought was well, I've you know, I teach eschatology I teach about the the new heavens and new earth and I try to stay within the realm of orthodoxy for crying out loud

And so one of my big questions was what about second peter chapter three, right? Because he uses that new heavens and new earth language.

We should be thinking about revelation 21 as well And he's like well this has to be taught he gets into the elements

And how this pertains to gnostic judaism and you can do some gymnastics with the greek, you know how you know

People can easily do that. I said, but what about earlier in the context where he talks about the heavens and the earth from creation?

We're talking about genesis one and two And what i've noticed is you have to abandon a grammatical historical

Understanding of the book of genesis at that point because then my question is why doesn't genesis one and two talk about covenant israel?

You can't be a young earth creation anymore or older Anymore, no, no, because that's the same language being used in genesis one and two

Peter is using that in second peter three But you're not wanting to be consistent with the language here.

Am I anywhere in the ballpark? Oh, no, there's a book They were putting it together again speaking at the conferences back in the mid 2005 -06 uh jeff bond and tim martin

We were speaking together at these conferences and they wrote a book called beyond creation science and that is because if the language of Matthew 24 heaven and earth and revelation heaven and earth

Is apocalyptic language or covenant language? Well, then so is genesis

It's not talking about physical creation at all It's talking about the creation of the redeemed people of god the covenant people of god of which adam was the first had appointed out of Many that god had chosen.

There's already a humanity that existed before adam It's it's you know science has destroyed.

Here's where the rationalism kicks As being the foundation of full preterism and by the way, if you want to be a full preterist

Then you can't hold a god's omniscience Classically, you have to be some form of open theist at that point

Um, you give up creationism as we understand it whether the young earth model or an old earth model genesis is not talking about that So if you're going to be a full preterist give that up um

I've talked to many full preterists that hold to universalism Because when you look at first corinthians 15 all that belongs to christ he will have at his coming

Right. So that happened at 70 ad and if you're gonna say Then all of his own happened there.

Well, we all died in adam and then we're all made alive in christ So this must mean universal salvation for everyone.

Oh, but jeremiah that doesn't disprove full preterism. That's not what I believe Yeah, but we're we're talking about consistency

And like you've pointed out you have a different hermeneutic where you're beginning with the end

And then interpreting everything else in light of these time indicators that talk about nearness

Or soon or coming quickly. This is where I want us to kind of wind down because There's no more great commission.

I don't care how many places in revelation you can appeal to well the healing of the nations

You have this kind of proclamation there in the new heavens and new earth Well, you you can't do that to the book of revelation.

I've heard that argument is Well the universalist there's no more great commission, right?

That's easy. But for those that are trying to evangelize In this new heavens and new earth they they appeal

This is to me another indicator signs of a cult people that build doctrine with the book of revelation

Not understanding everything else and seeing how the nature of the book of revelation does fit within didactic teachings of paul for example

But have you heard that before we get into how to rightly understand the time indicators? I've I have coined the term inconsistent preterism

Um where they're appealing to verses isolated throughout revelation. Well, we see evangelism

We see the healing of the nations happening in the new heavens and new earth. Why can they not do that?

Dr. Frost? well You have to invent another death because the death is destroyed in 70 a .d

It's a great death so you can't it's you know, all so everyone from Adam But if you got prior to adam because you've just blown apart creation

So you can't have that when jesus says the great tribulation such as shall not be from the creation of the world

Until now and shall be no more and that's 70 a .d, right So ask this noah's flood

Are you telling me that the jewish war Was greater than the destruction of noah's flood

And they've had they have to answer. Yes Dr. Frost that doesn't disprove full preterism

That's what I get. That's literally The response I get every time You can't hold to a global flood.

You gotta be you gotta go to noah's flood is either a myth it's purely a kind of a fictive way of Presenting the it's covenantal.

Dr. Frost governmental. Yeah and it's a Yeah might have been a

Flood like the black sea over there Maybe resulted in it or something, but you know, it's not a universal

So see you have to doubt In other words, this isn't just an eschatology that comes in that you can just fit in with evangelical theology

You've got to go back through the entire and redefine every We're not being progressively sanctified anymore progressive sanctification as its end unto perfection

Which has arrived in 70 a .d. So I don't want to hear about No more sanctification now

You think you're sanctified 100 right now and you're glorified

And you're glorified Because well what when I die, I'll get Death is not holding you back from the glorification because physical death is not the problem spiritual death was

And that's been done away with see you can't that's this is where I just It fell apart for I thought we have

So if you want to continue in your full brother is a fantastic just don't call it christianity because it's not

It's a can at least joseph smith had the cojones to start his own churches and say that you guys are apostate

And he started his own thing. He didn't go in and say hey methodist. Can I join you guys? He didn't want anything to do with the methodists apostate.

Why would he want to join them? They're denying the doctrines of of jesus and moroni and The methylene

Well, I want to brag on you for a second Um, because I would encourage people to go look at your youtube channel, but dr

Frost you got to upload some more videos on these things to help us those that are having to combat this false teacher

Um, but you made an excellent point because obviously when you start talking to full predators you start talking about death right because when you start looking at first corinthians 15 and They start making weird distinctions that bodily doesn't necessarily mean physical and you're just like who am

I talking to at this point? but the conversation will Harken back to adam and eve at creation if they haven't just totally butchered the whole book of genesis yet Well, they'll say well

God said surely on the day that you eat the fruit of the from the tree of knowledge good and evil that you will die their argument

Is um, I would say similar to atheists that are disparaging the scripture will say well adam didn't die physically

Adam and eve didn't die physically. So he's talking about spiritual death Yeah, right

And so you rightly pointed out. Well, um man is it there was there was a you know, a a

Spiritual death sure now you you rightly said there is a a covenantal rift that happened between god and man there

Absolutely And correct me if i'm wrong, but man is at least comprised of a dichotomy

I know the there's trichotomous out there but of body and soul and so when man Is going to die death is going to touch both features of who man is both physical and spiritual

You pointed out there was a substitute made in the garden now this people that rightly understand genesis should understand their proto evangelium

That's happening that god is promising a redeemer someone to crush the head of the serpent and so god provides a sacrifice a

Substitute for adam and eve a covering And what happened with that animal?

Died physically died Right. That's what should have happened with adam and eve in the garden

And so why? Why is it so important? Help me here. Why is it so important that the full preterist has to say?

Oh, well the scripture is talking about spiritual death not physical death or bodily death well, they

Try to get around Introduced this concept of spiritual death there, but there's just nowhere in the text.

It's just nowhere. It's it's not there And the fact of the matter is adam and eve did not die

Or adam particularly did not die the day he ate But he he does die, but you know, there was another mitigating factor here called the serpent

Um, you remove the serpent from the story They wouldn't have ate

They would have continued right along. So there's mitigating circumstances here So there's an act of grace and there's clearly an act of mercy that's going on on What could have happened what the judge could issue from the bench the maximum penalty, but instead says that I'll give you time

And then you'll die And he does this because of the circumstances That are there and then to demonstrate your covenant to demonstrate covenant blood is shed and so it mentions the uh, the skin

Here and god made for them skins, which is the word that's used for animals and He clothed them with So if you go to leviticus

You'll note that the priest was allowed to wear Skin and to make a tunic only the priest could use the height of the skin of the centaur broom

And only the priest could make a tunic Out of that. That's the words. These are the words that are used and then you get just a just drop down a few more verses

And you get this guy Whose name was abel? And he's bringing together the firstborn of his flock and the fat portions and he's giving it to god as an offer skin fat portions first fruits offering

It's it's right. It's right there at least this is the beginnings of the origins of the primeval

History there of what eventually becomes are they trying to say? They're being no more death in the new heavens.

The new earth is no more spiritual death Is that what they're trying to say that if they believe, you know have this idea of spiritual death they would have to say that because I will swallow at best

For all Read the verse in isaiah 25 7 says the canopy that covers over all the peoples

Will be swallowed up. So max king who again is the founder. I think one of the main way is historically one of the main founders

Um the last time I spoke at his conference his son tim and his two sons tim and doug king

Had at the book table greg boyd's open theology That's that's where they were going.

This is uh, 2000 to 2003 And that's that's kind of where tim was was going and doug

Now keep in mind living presence. This is where larry siegel came out of uh jack scott

Ed stevens don preston, they all came out of warren, ohio Speaking with max king and and what was going on there with the corporate body view resurrection

Which is what I endorsed so The next thing

I know is that doug and tim king Realizing that death has been destroyed the latest book by max king on romans 9 through 11.

Is that he's a universalist This is one of the main founders of professor is a universalist and they've gone the route of ken wilbur

And this whole idea of this integral theology that's bringing in all of the

Conscience and that god is bringing humanity into a higher consciousness And it doesn't have anything to do with denominations

There's nothing see that's all done away with tribalism nationalities See if you're gonna go the whole route

Uh go the way they're going But get rid of your reformed Calvinist theology by all means get rid of that.

That's a relic of the 16th century completely rooted in a futurist eschatology totally dominated from beginning to end

In terms of its soteriology, you got to get rid of that. That's that's do you mean the beginning all the way

From 70 ad I get rid of it. Yeah So, what do we do now, what do you do about this we are in a world of thought progressive

Where god has freed us he's redeemed humanity and we are free to think in terms of the solidarity of humanity to bring them into a global society of peace and harmony and to work towards those goals

And we have a Long amount of time to do if we're careful Because this is arminianism keeping in mind

Well, you'd have to be arminianist an open future you Got you have there's no the end is done.

It's it's it's past. There's there is no See And i'm a philosopher too.

So I I saw when those things happen. I thought man this is So in other words full preterism is a world view without having a world view

So it can't answer these questions, right And you know, it's crazy. It attempts to answer questions at the beginning with the time text, but it ends it eventually ends

It ends with not being able to really answer anything at all and something else you've pointed out at because One of the things that when

I first started hearing about full preterism i'm like it can't be true Literally, jesus was talking and axwell at the apostles says the way that I will leave

That's the way that I will come back and i'm like bodily ascension Right bodily return and then the response is oh, well, he's just leaving.

Uh, he's ascending Authoritatively and he'll come back authoritatively spiritually back at 70 ad

And I thought that's what the original audience thought oh, he's just leaving authoritatively

That's what peter thought that's the original audience relic. Yeah, that's just covenantally

It's bizarre Have you ever heard? Have you ever heard of them making a a distinction between bodily and physical like what's the deal with that?

Preston this is another issue because we uh Had a problem with jesus that we were making jesus the exception empty tomb

So he's the exception and so he ascended bodily into heaven. They were willing to willing to keep that I was um

But the problem is is that if material matter Empty tomb was glorified and ascended into heaven that shows that bodies can

You know dwell in heavenly existence and yet still be bodies um, and if that's the case

And he's the first fruit then the harvest would look exactly the same So we got a problem

Because we have to keep this human nature to nature upon a person Oh, that's gonna go that's gotta go too.

I'm operating within the creeds. I don't want to jettison all this just because the text says

Some of you standing here. So because of whatever that means some of you standing here I've got to jess jettison the entire encyclopedia of christian theology so I can maintain 70 ab above all else

And I don't want to do that because that's just stupid So I thought we got to keep it Well now this is the christology is being challenged if don preston says well

He was human in the days of his flesh on earth But now he's absorbed back into the godhead and has retained the right as their logos of god and i'm like that's insanity and I said you just you you have

We're not christians anymore I mean, so don does not believe don preston does not believe jesus is a human being anymore

That has retained in the logos of his mind what it was to be a human being and so therefore through that memory can identify still with human beings i'm, like that's uh

Down in there Oh Ireland well, no, no i'm saying full

Well, no, no not you personally the full Oh The preterist.

Yeah, they have to have an actual time. It's 37 years 30. Did you say 37 years?

Yeah, 30 millennial 33. He ascends. So you figure 33 Give him take a year one of them

Whatever, you know julian gregorian calendar or whatever So we'll say 33 ad he ascends so 33 to 70 is 37 years

And that's the millennium is 37 actual years because the millennium has to end in 70 ad

You can't have it go beyond now This is where milton terry and j stewart russell john gill john lightfoot all they would look at that and say well, that's just stupid

But not the full preterist because 70 ad has to be maintained at all costs

It it must and that it's like So now the symbol of a thousand

Is actually reduced to meaning less than a thousand Usually a thousand is a symbol for a much greater.

Yeah, exactly What's all the hills or a thousand generation? What's all the generation?

You know or my covenant faithfulness, you know for a thousand years of the days. Well What And there's no

Precedent for this But they don't care see this is where you're talking to again a mormon you're talking to a scientologist

You're right. They don't care. They're committed to this at all costs And my friend that was wrestling through this

I thought man i'm gonna be soft and gracious with him And I saw a switch change.

I saw him be committed I mean this was a man about to walk away from the ministry because he's like I can't see the scripture

In any other way and now I don't I don't want to mess with people's lives as being a pastor and it's totally the opposite It's gonna i'm gonna convince these people of this

And my heart hurts because I care too much about guarding the sheep that's been entrusted to me

I have to warn them of this heresy. I have to warn the community and other Evangelical churches of what's going on.

I set you to set the sound the alarm He said the ezekiel and you do not sound it.

I'm holding you accountable. Oh It's I have to do this I don't like look i'm a peaceful tree hugging kind of guy

I don't you know I don't like confrontations or any of that kind of stuff.

I People have often said to me at conferences and stuff man You're a lot nicer in person than you are writing on your thing and I said, well, you know

What I write is what I believe right, you know, if you push me i'm going to confront but I really don't like I try to be as ecumenical as I possibly.

Yeah, absolutely here on the side of grace you say jesus And then okay, we got something in common.

Let's talk about it, but I got a war. Yeah, you're heading

Look, i've watched lives destroyed. I've watched Numerous full predators become atheists leave the faith entirely um

I've watched alcoholism I've watched drug abuse. I've watched families busted up.

I've watched i've seen it all I've seen these these people many of them and not just five or six a lot uh uh

Just completely and justify it all as well. I'm not in sin And if you're a universalist then

I'm, not in sin sin's been done away with yeah Jesus fulfilled the law That's sad so How how should we handle the time text?

Maybe you can quote a few We know what we know what the full predators think that means and so how should we handle that?

What's what's a good response to the time indicators? well, there's The main word that's used that they like is the verb

In greek is in gizo And then ingus is the noun as of the that that word near and they like to use that and say near well near has a a lot of shades of meaning to it

Deuteronomy 4 7 for what other great nation has god so near as the lord our god whenever we call to him

That's not whatever. God has or whatever great nation has god 35 years 10 seconds

Away from them is whenever we call that's not time It's it's it's it's at hand which literally the greek at hand is two words.

It literally means at hand That's near At hand right there. It's it's there's no it's it's in other words um in the the study of this word

The way greeks used this word is oftentimes associated with the word here or present um

For example, you're at My wife is at hand at home. She's at hand. She's readily at hand.

Well, she's here. She's present. That's what the word That's what the word means there's numerous examples of this so deuteronomy 4 7 is one of them, but the one

I like is the psalm um This is the exact phrasing that we find in the new testament word for word the greek septuagint translating the hebrew

Psalm 145 18 the lord is there to all who call upon him and the phrasing there is

Ingus curius Which is exactly what we find in the new testament. The lord is five years 10 days

Three hours and 23 seconds away from all of those who call. That's not what i'm saying

He's present If you say something he hears it. That's how close that's how near he is

He's hearing your words and that's what the word means like and there's numerous examples of this

So when jesus comes upon the scene and says kingdom of god is near Well, luke says it another way

If you see me Doing this by the finger of god, then you know that the kingdom of god has come upon you

Which is another way of expressing? near It's right in your face

In fact, it's within you Because they're asking when's the kingdom of god? They're thinking chronology time.

When's the kingdom of god when? kingdom of god Is here is yeah

Yes But you have to have eyes to see which you don't so well that's

See, that's academic. That's scholars scholars have long Seen it in that in that life

And so I adopted that when I saw that I thought oh man, he's not talking about 70 ad here.

He's talking about the presence of god has manifested in his and who jesus is who is the temple and And the glory of god dwelling so they're standing in front of jesus and he's talking to him

King of god is near However, I am going away Yeah, and you won't see me anymore

And you're gonna have to be alert You don't be deceived Keep on watch there'll be false teachers.

Wait a minute. Can't you stay down here and tell us who's the false teachers are no That's why you got to go to church.

You have to assemble Why do we have to assemble together? To hold each other accountable and keep each other in check

Do you have your wick trimmed fill your fill that up? You need to get filled up over here.

Have you been in the word? What are you doing? Hey, you can't be flirting with that stuff over there You need brother you need to watch see that's why we go to church and worship god

And sing psalms hymns and spiritual songs together get filled with the spirit and talk about jesus and then

I can hear about jesus from you and i'm like, yeah my jesus and your jesus. Yeah. Yeah, we know and All these other people know the same jesus

So we keep our each other in check when we start hearing about this Jesus, who's no longer a human being who came back again and raised the dead in 78

I don't know who that jesus is That's a defeated king because I see a lot of sin and brokenness in this world that he didn't do anything

That's that's not who I serve Now when you're talking about the kingdom is at hand the kingdom is present

It's near the apostle paul tell me if this is relevant romans 14 17 for the kingdom of god is not a matter of eating and drinking but Of righteousness and peace and joy in the holy spirit talking about the kingdom of god is at hand

It's it's within you in some sense, too. It is It is righteousness joy in the holy ghost

That's the king. So It's not this You know busting force and all this other stuff for me for the parisia the presence which is daniel 7 13 to close here

Daniel 7 13 in the septuagint mentions the verb For the greek noun parisia

The verb is parami and it mentions that there he's made to be present before The throne to receive all glory power honor and might we see in revelation 5 the lamb of god comes

Erkomai That's used in daniel 7 13 erkomai. I am coming. That is the favorite word of the coming of the lord.

I'm coming Um, you won't finish going through the cities of israel before the son of man comes

Comes where to receive glory power honor and might and the obedience of the nations

When are you going to do that? When is that? You're the son of man And daniel said the son of man is going to receive all glory power honor and might and obedience of the nations

The kingdom is going to be given to him And you're the son of man Show us your glory.

Let's see it Let's see it Yeah Don't you know that the son of man first must die, how do you get to heaven?

Don't you know I have to die first and suffer and then Nope, it's just spiritually Okay, and this changes everything.

So what is the son of man doing right now? He's on the clouds of heaven of glory before the father

He's in all power authority and honor and might revelation 14 and I saw one like a son of man sitting on a cloud

Revelation 1 he turns and he sees The description one like a son of man coming on the clock. This is descriptive of who he is

He's in all power glory honor and authority, but right now You can't see him It's by faith because there's this call of the nations

Yeah, so he doesn't bring judgment Immediately the day of the lord does not He thought well, there's a call of the nations according to the prophets

I have to fulfill the prophets and the prophet says The call of the nations will come in and increase the nation into an innumerable multitude.

This is revelation 7 I saw israel and then I turned and looked there was an end mold innumerable

Well, that's what the prophet said would happen That's the that israel and the nations called that through israel god through abraham through israel

God would save the nations This is what it says to abraham what it says it would be so to psalm 16 psalm 72 if all of this is true

Then all I have to do is just go to the nations open my mouth proclaim the gospel and they'll believe

And that's what he did and they believed and that to him was a testimony and a witness

To the fact that jesus has been raised from the dead And if you continue to resist this lesson he's talking to the jews that what god has manifested so clearly

Then how shall you? You're just storing up for yourself Wrath in the day of god's wrath when god's wrath is revealed

For he will give each man according to what he is still stating to the jews I know that the end is going to come and that judgment is going and i'm going to stand before god and give an account

For the message that i'm preaching about jesus as messiah. I as a jew full well Know that god is going to raise the best judge all of the world and i'm going to stand before him

And i'm going to have to give an account for preaching a false messiah God forbid

God forbid that I would stand there. I'm not being judged by men My judgment is from god.

Yeah, you can see where he does this and yeah, man, I can go on because no Hey, thank you so much.

Dr Hey, I definitely we should do this again sometime i'll get some more questions because I know i'm going to get some feedback

We can do a follow -up or something. Yeah Well, hey, thank you so much for taking uh your time today and going through a lot of this you've helped me out a lot

Uh, especially over the past number of weeks And so I wanted to do this to help warn people like that passage from ezekiel.

You're talking about this is this is this could happen To any one of us, um this false teaching a full hyper preterism.

It comes under different names covenant eschatology consistent eschatology Preterism things like that And so wait,

I just want this to be a resource for people to realize don't buy into it, right? That's that shiny answer of the time indicators you heard a wonderful explanation from dr

Frost, um of just saying look the kingdom of god is at hand. It's near it's here, right?

It's not it's not talking about chronology per se and so I thought you answered that well, and we'll do this again.

Dr frost um So if you have any final things you would like to say i'm going to give you the last word here before I close it

I just appreciate it. I I will ask you know, I know that this will air be

Timed but just to pray for the talbot family What they're going through, uh, dr talbot started whitfield seminary way back in the 80s

Rushed any I wrote him 89 or not. So I still have the letter. I've got my bachelor's what seminary should

I go to he said? Oh, there's a guy in whitfield Seminary in lakeland florida Go talk to him and I did and i've known him ever since so it's just a real

Long Relationship there, but I know i'll see him again Yeah, he's in glory

And that's it. And thank you for your time Absolutely beating you and we'll stay we'll stay in touch.

Definitely. Absolutely Well, thank you everybody for tuning in to the apologetic dog where we are serious about guarding the the gospel that's been entrusted to us and so Eschatology is important the study about the the end times

But we do that understanding that jesus is going to return that he will restore all things this world that we

Live and experience sin and brokenness Jesus is going to restore all that he is going to make all things new all creation is groaning for this to happen.