July 28, 2023 Show with Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington on “Reformed Theology & Presuppositionalism: How Strong is the Link?”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of Founding Father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27, verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 28th day of July, 2023.

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I want to once again thank the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listening audience for praying for my older brother,

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Andy. He is 75. He was taken from the nursing home where he lives last

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Sunday night to a hospital due to pneumonia and a urinary tract infection.

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Things were looking scary a couple of times, and I was requesting urgent and fervent prayer from my listeners in regard to a restoration of my brother's health and also a miraculous work spiritually within his heart and mind in regard to our

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Lord Jesus Christ. And it seems that he is improving enough where he will be likely discharged from the hospital this weekend and returned to the nursing home.

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So I want to thank all of you who have been praying for Andy. I ask of you to continue to pray for him, not only for his physical needs, but also for his spiritual needs.

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Thank you so much. You'll never know the depth of the gratitude

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I have not only to God especially, but to God for you who have been praying for me and demonstrating how much you love me and this program by responding with your affirmation that you are praying for my requests.

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I can never get over how blessed I routinely am by your kindness.

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Today, I am thrilled to have back a returning guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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His name is Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington. He's an author, a teaching elder at Cambodia Presbyterian Church, and a missionary professor.

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And today, he's going to be addressing Reformed Theology and Presuppositionalism, How Strong is the

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Link? And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my old friend,

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Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington. Well, thank you, Chris, for inviting me on the program.

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It's always been a pleasure to join with you in past episodes, so I'm looking forward to our time together this afternoon.

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Why don't you explain to our listeners something about Cambodia Presbyterian Church. Sure. The Cambodian Presbyterian Church is, as its name says, in Cambodia.

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I am a teaching elder in that denomination through being friends and colleagues with the president of one of the seminaries in Phnom Penh, who is ordained in that denomination, and they invited me to join with them.

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So at this point, my service is from a distance through the

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Internet, with the hope that the Lord would make it possible that the teaching would become in -person as well.

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I think Zoom enables us to do a lot internationally that couldn't be done beforehand.

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With all the troubles that we know, Zoom, merely Zoom can create.

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But Zoom as one tool among many is great, but I do enjoy in -person teaching, which, of course,

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I do as well at Penn State University, Pennsylvania State University. Not to be confused with the state pen, which sometimes is.

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I teach basically history of Christianity in two different courses from the

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New Testament era up through just prior to the Reformation at the

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Abington campus. There are a multitude of campuses of the Penn State.

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In fact, their law college has a satellite location about five minutes from where I'm sitting.

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Oh, okay. Yeah, I mean, I believe they have 28 campuses.

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So Lord willing, I'll be doing two courses for the school this fall in Cambodia.

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That will be one on union with Christ and another on the Pentateuch, or the first five books of the

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Old Testament. And my course at Penn State, which is in -person, is going to be on early

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Judaism and early Christianity. So it's that period of time in the New Testament.

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Well, the period of, you know, the intertestamental period, which we now refer to as the

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Second Temple period. Referring to Herod's Temple, it's the second is over against Solomon.

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So that will be my topic. It will be Second Temple era.

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So early Judaism and early Christianity discussing, among other things, the eventual parting of the ways between official

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Judaism and official Christianity. My listeners who may be in or have loved ones who are in or who have loved ones who have left the

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Salvation Army may be interested in listening afterwards. After this live program, you might want to go back to the archives at ironsharpensironradio .com

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and listen to my guest Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington's testimony of how he and his wife left the

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Salvation Army denomination. And I'm not saying that to disparage any of the truly born again and wonderful folks in the

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Salvation Army. But it just happens to be a denomination that is in stark contrast in regard to the sovereignty of God, especially with Reformed theology.

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So I hope that you do take time eventually to listen to that fascinating interview as well.

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Well, we are talking about a controversial issue today, presuppositionalism.

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As long as I've been a Christian, there has been a relatively friendly division amongst

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Reformed Christians over this issue. You have Reformed Christians like the late

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R .C. Sproul, who advocated classical apologetics or evidential apologetics, as did his mentor,

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John Gerstner, both of whom are great heroes of mine. I had the privilege of seeing both of them speak on a number of occasions and met them face to face and only have had

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Dr. Sproul on the program. I never had the opportunity to have Dr. Gerstner on the show, who is also in heaven now.

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But they were thoroughly Reformed and yet in opposition to presuppositionalism.

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But it seems that lately the divide has become more intense, more caustic perhaps, especially due to the rise of popularity of Thomism, which typically is associated with an opposing view to presuppositionalism.

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And perhaps you can correct me if you think I'm overstating the case. But if you could, first of all,

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I think it would be wise for you to define presuppositionalism. Sure. The term itself,

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I believe, was coined by—yeah, his name went right out of my head.

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Cornelius Ventile? No, he was not the one who coined the term presuppositionalism.

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That was from his—who was our friend who was out at Wheaton and then

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Oliver Buswell. OK. Oliver Buswell. I knew it would come to me.

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He coined the term back in the 30s or 40s. And Dr. Ventile basically said,

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OK, we'll go with it. It's a little—it may be a little bit confusing because the term has what

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I would call an epistemological or subjective element and a metaphysical or objective element.

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And the first instance would be that presuppositionalism presupposes the truth of the triune

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God of Scripture and his revealed will. So that includes

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God and creation. OK, there you go. We've got all of reality covered.

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And there's a subjective element, which is the truth that I presuppose that has been revealed in God's word and that I embrace.

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And depending on what we're talking about, it could be that only one of those aspects is in view, and we've not always been good at clarifying that.

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So presuppositions are not merely biases. That's often how it's understood.

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What I'm saying, following not only Dr. Ventile, but also his disciple,

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Dr. Greg Bonson, the late Dr. Bonson, and, of course, the late

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Dr. Ventile, the presuppositional method is to argue from the impossibility of the contrary, the impossibility of the contrary, which means if you deny the

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God, the triune God of Scripture and his revealed will, then you have no way of accounting for reality and what we know about it.

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So that, in a nutshell, in other words, how was

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I going to put it? In a nutshell, it's what's called an indirect method.

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In other words, it's talking with a nonbeliever and asking how they can account for what they know about reality and their own knowledge, basically.

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And specifically, your motivation for conducting today's program is a growing popularity among Armenians or nonreformed

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Christians, because not all nonreformed Christians would call themselves that, although they usually would fit well within the historical description of evangelical

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Arminianism. But there's a growing popularity amongst them to adopt a presuppositional apologetic.

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And yet, while you are rejoicing over that and celebrating that, you have a hesitancy over that because you believe it is not consistent and logical.

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Perhaps you could further expand upon that. Yes. Well, I mean, basically, presuppositionalism was birthed out of Reformed theology.

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So that as a method, as a way of arguing, as a way of defending the

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Christian faith, it is built upon and dependent upon the Reformed theology out of which it arises, basically.

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However, as you've already noted, Chris, it can be adopted by and has been adopted by nonreformed

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Christians to some benefit, I mean, to some good effect.

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And when I say nonreformed, I mean Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

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Understand that this is not merely within the broader evangelical community, but this use of presuppositionalism has gone beyond the evangelical or Bible -believing church confines and has actually extended to Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.

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And if you were to search on YouTube, you can find teachers with large followings who do this.

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Wow. Now, can you explain why it seems,

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I'm not saying that every Thomist or every devotee of Thomas Aquinas is not a presuppositionalist, but it seems by and large at least the new breed of Thomists amongst

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Reformed Baptists, amongst Presbyterians and others, have either abandoned a previously held presuppositional apologetic or have just received further ammunition to oppose presuppositionalism because of their newfound and growing reliance upon the theology of Thomas Aquinas.

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Can you tell us what would make Thomism at odds with presuppositionalism?

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Well, first of all, anybody who is following the classical method of apologetics is in some sense adopting the method of Thomas.

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That doesn't mean they know it or they're purposely trying to follow

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Thomas, but as a matter of fact, that's the method in some shape or form that he himself embraced.

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Now, just to maybe add a bit of clarification, classical apologetics and evidentialism, when you're looking at the truth of the

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Bible, look exactly the same because basically they are. The difference between classical apologetics and evidential apologetics is that classical adds to evidentialism so -called philosophically neutral arguments about God.

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So they're trying to argue for the existence of a God before they look at the

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Bible and what it says about the God. So the classical method is typically a two -step, whereas evidentialism is more of a one -step right into the

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Bible in dealing with the historical truthfulness, etc. Well, if you could share with us, what are the primarily

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Reformed elements of theology that, in your opinion, are so hinged to and wedded to presuppositionalism that it would reveal that those from outside of Reformed Protestantism may appear in some level to be logically consistent, but if you press the issue to the nth degree, it really falls apart.

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What would be those areas? Okay. Now, I forgot to, before I answer that question,

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Chris, which is an excellent question, or series of questions, maybe more accurately, I forgot to answer.

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So those who are presently part of the Reformed Thomist school, and there would be many, this arises, at least in part, out of the revolution in church history and historical theology that occurred through the work of Richard Muller and some of his professors, teachers, and his students.

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And so there's been a return to looking at Thomas himself.

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So that's, and why would that be opposed? Well, of course, if we disagree with classical apologetics, and we do in terms of our trying to argue for a neutral idea of a

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God, not necessarily the triune God of the Bible, then these brothers are critical of presuppositionalism, and Thomas gives them, they think, ammunition to shoot at us.

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And I hold these brothers in high regard, even though I disagree with them on these particular issues.

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I would agree with them first on appreciating church history and historical theology, and recognizing the significance of a

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Thomas Aquinas, his brilliance as a theologian, his influence in the history of Western and now also

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Eastern Christianity. And so Thomas is a part of our, good, bad, or indifferent, he's a part of our heritage.

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Because his influence goes beyond Roman Catholicism, you mentioned

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R .C. Sproul and John Gerstner, they were both specifically attempting to build on their understanding of Thomas Aquinas.

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Yes, in fact, there is a documentary, or not a documentary, a lecture that I have seen on DVD, and of course that's a dinosaur in today's technology.

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But when I saw it, it was on DVD, it might have even been on a videotape, but when

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Sproul was going through a lecture, a very detailed lecture, on his primary heroes of the

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Christian faith, there were some of his Reformed Protestant brethren who were dismayed that he so enthusiastically included

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Thomas Aquinas in that group. Yeah, I think there's an interpretation of Thomas that's actually not historically accurate, coming from the influence of Dr.

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Gerstner, who I hold, by the way, in high regard. Oh, I love them. Right? In terms of his,

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I love that growly voice. Which Sproul basically evolved to adopt.

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Yes. Now, I came to Gerstner by way of Sproul, and when I heard

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Gerstner, I said, that's Sproul. And maybe it's just the

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Pittsburgh dialect. Now, to get to your question, which would be an abridged to your question, would be that Dr.

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Van Til and presuppositionalists historically have been critical of Thomas. So that's why

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Thomists are critical of us. So there's a history there going back to, actually predates

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Van Til, goes back to some extent in Abraham Kuyper and in Boving, Herman Boving, who both, by the way, are well -read in Thomas, as was,

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I believe, Dr. Van Til, but Richard Muller himself has gone after Dr.

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Van Til, and that would be a project in its own right to interact with Dr.

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Muller, who I hold in very high regard, by the way, as a church historian. Now, I don't want to focus too much on Thomas Aquinas today, but it seems inescapable when we're talking about this issue of presuppositionalism.

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Was it Aquinas' natural theology that is at the core of their opposition to presuppositionalism, or what is it?

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Well, that's it. I mean, Van Til did not reject natural theology, and neither do I. It's the natural theology we hold to.

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In other words, you know, Roman Catholics have a doctrine of justification. That doesn't mean we should therefore reject a doctrine of justification just because Catholics have one, right?

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So in this instance, their understanding—we might say the devil is in the details, right?

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And so we have to be—I totally forgot the question,

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Chris. I was wondering if— Because I was fishing there. Can you remind me of what you just asked?

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Well, I'll even slightly rephrase it. Is it Thomas Aquinas' specific understanding of natural theology that is at the focal point of his modern -day disciples being opponents of presuppositionalism?

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Well, that's certainly a part of it. But I would argue, as others have, that it's actually his whole doctrine.

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Because he was such a—he really is a brilliant—was a brilliant theologian, and on things like how to study theology, things like that, he actually was quite insightful.

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But it's his doctrine of God. Doctrine of God yields a doctrine of natural theology.

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Here's a point. So natural theology is not natural revelation, okay?

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Dr. Van Til typically is lumped with Karl Barth. Even my friend

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John Fesco of Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, in his book

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Reforming Apologetics, inaccurately puts Van Til into the same group as Barth.

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Neo -Orthodox? Yeah. Barth rejects natural revelation and natural theology.

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Although one can argue he has one anyway, but that's a story for another day.

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What's going on is natural revelation is the revelation that God gives of himself in nature, including human nature, our consciousness, right?

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Being made in the image of God, et cetera. Natural theology is what we think about God's natural revelation.

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That distinction is very important. Van Til does not reject natural revelation.

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Karl Barth did. Van Til does not reject natural theology properly defined.

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Karl Barth did, with all due respect to Dr. Fesco. Dr. Thomas Aquinas, there's a whole bunch of things that are— remember

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I talked about how presupposition, the term presupposition, has an objective and a subjective sense?

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In other words, are we talking about God and his world that we presuppose, or are we talking about my thinking about God and his world?

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So it could be either or both together, so we need to unpack that.

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With Thomas, Thomas has an epistemology, that is a theory of human knowledge, that is, if I can put it in quick and dirty terms, that's the expression one of my professors at Westminster used to use,

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Claire Davis. Shout out to Claire Davis. That Thomas was an empiricist.

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That is, most of us who are familiar with Thomas Aquinas know that he was heavily influenced by Aristotle, the philosopher, as he's called, in the works of Thomas.

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Well, Aristotle was empirical, he was an empiricist. In other words, all human knowledge must begin in the senses, sight, hearing, smelling, taste, feeling, that kind of thing.

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Isn't that where the Roman Catholic understanding of transubstantiation and the mass came from?

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That would certainly enter into that conceit. Accidents in substance.

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Yes, already you can see connections to other issues that we're not technically talking about, the

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Lord's Supper. Now, so what that does is

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Thomas says, now, that affects his understanding of Romans 1 and what

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Paul says in verses 18 to 32, and you may remember that I made comments about this when we were working through Romans chapter 1,

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Chris. You may remember that I made an observation about that.

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You can read Thomas' commentary on Romans online, by the way. You don't have to purchase it.

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It's free. The people who publish it in print also offer it online. So you can go and find what

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Thomas said about Romans 1, 18 to 32. You don't have to rely upon me.

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You can do it yourself. But he basically says that God created us with a capacity or an ability to know, but he doesn't say that God actually implants knowledge of himself in the human mind and heart, which is what

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Paul says. So already you've got in Thomas a problem. And that's related because for Thomas, knowledge of God is indirect in the sense that we can only know

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God through his effects in creation. Remember, he's an empiricist.

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So we can only know God through his effects in creation. And let me pick up where you left off there because we have to go to our first commercial break.

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Yep, no problem. Anybody who would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr. Jeffrey C.

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Waddington on presuppositionalism, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com,

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And you'd rather not obviously identify yourself and therefore subsequently identify your church.

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We wouldn't want you to do that. You might even be an elder of a church who disagrees with your fellow elders or your denomination over what we're talking about.

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We understand those would be reasons to remain anonymous. But please, if it's a general question, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

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Please don't go away. We'll be right back with Jeffrey C. Waddington. The Mid -Atlantic

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That's royaldiadem .com. We're now back with Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington. We are talking about reform theology and presuppositionalism.

40:37

How strong is the link? Right before the break we were in the middle of discussing the epistemology of empiricism, and if you could pick up where we left off.

40:50

Sure. We were talking about, in particular, that Thomas's doctrine of God impacts his doctrine of natural theology.

41:03

He does not have a category. I think I've mentioned this before. I've not found in my reading of Thomas any reference to a natural revelation.

41:13

So revelation, discussion of revelation in Thomas is always special revelation.

41:20

And there are issues, although I understand that the folk who are interested in using a presuppositional method of apologetics who are in, say, the

41:34

Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic tradition, I don't know in particular whether they would be—I doubt they would be influenced by Thomas, although they may be quite familiar with him.

41:49

But the brothers in reform circles who have rediscovered

41:56

Thomas or have discovered him for the first time, they are correct that you can't bring

42:06

Thomas and presuppositionalism together. Not that you can't learn things from reading

42:14

Thomas, it's just that there are different ways of defending the

42:19

Christian religion. Thomas wants to defend an ambiguous theology of a

42:31

God, but not—at least when it's natural theology, it's not necessarily the

42:37

Christian God, but a God. And then when he gets to special revelation, he can be more particular.

42:44

Or as we would argue, from the beginning, the God that we presuppose is the triune

42:49

God of Scripture, not a non -existent God who is, according to the

42:55

Scriptures, an idol. You know, what you're saying actually is making me realize something that I've noticed, and I don't want to broad brush, but there is a tendency amongst evidentialists and those who embrace classic apologetics to be so more concerned— it seems like their primary concern in the field of apologetics is just to convince atheists to become theists, to believe that there exists a higher power, a

43:37

God, etc. But that isn't really sufficient at all, is it? No. You may remember some years ago when

43:46

Dr. Sproul, again, who I hold in very high regard and am sad to think that he's no longer with us, so that he himself is not sad.

43:58

And he's no longer an evidentialist. Right. He's in the presence of the great and glorious triune

44:04

God, his risen Christ. But you may remember, and I think he mentioned this, the

44:12

British atheist Anthony Kenny, who was a well -known philosopher.

44:19

If you study the history of Western philosophy, the name of Anthony Kenny will be familiar because he's edited philosophical encyclopedias.

44:29

Well, he became a theist, and I don't remember at this point, you know—

44:35

Are you talking about Anthony Flew? Oh, it could be Anthony Flew. Yes. Okay. Same thing.

44:41

I mean, Anthony Flew also is—I mean, when you're talking about Oxford and Cambridge philosophers, they're all interactive.

44:52

Thank you. You corrected me. It's Anthony Flew who became a theist.

44:57

I don't know what kind of theist he became. And you're right. The Great Commission says—Jesus said in the

45:06

Great Commission in Matthew 28, to go into all the world and make disciples of the nations, that is, disciples of Christ, not converts to generic theism.

45:21

Because there is no generic deity. There's only one God in three persons.

45:27

That's the only one that exists. That's the only one, as Christians, we ought to defend.

45:35

Amen. And one last thing about Aquinas, unless you want to bring him up for any particular reason.

45:44

Unless I'm misunderstanding the defense of Aquinas by many who, at least previously, were doggedly, unashamedly, unwaveringly

45:55

Protestant and vehemently opposed to the false gospel and religion of Rome.

46:02

They are giving Thomas Aquinas a pass, it seems to me anyway, merely or primarily, perhaps, because he existed three centuries before the

46:17

Council of Trent. And Trent was really the official departure of Rome into apostasy.

46:28

Although there were apostates in Rome for centuries prior to that, this is where it became dogmatically official that they were an apostate church, because they officially apostatized the true gospel, or those who adhered to it, and declared dogmatically a false gospel.

46:49

And am I making sense? Yeah, exactly, Chris. What you've got, and the point we could make, is that the

46:59

Council of Trent, sometimes referred to as the Tridentine Council, they're the same thing.

47:06

That they are actually making official the teaching of Thomas Aquinas.

47:11

They say so. They say on the altar with the Bible and the

47:16

Summa Theologiae, the Summa Theologiae, Summa Theology, basically.

47:23

So basically, even though he lived three centuries before Trent, he had the same... Well, he's

47:28

Roman Catholic! Yes, he had the same gospel that Trent would later define. He's not the inventor of transubstantiation, but he offers an argument for it, of course, turning

47:42

Aristotle on his head. But that's, again, another issue.

47:49

But back to, you know, what are the issues? Well, if God cannot be known except by his effects, that's, you know, in one sense, of course, no duh, revelation is an effect, but he means more, he's saying that he's denying what

48:10

I think the Apostle Paul, in Romans 1, 18 -32, is actually teaching. Knowing God, they refuse to honor

48:19

God or to worship him, which is Paul's argument in the latter half of Romans 1.

48:27

And they think that Paul is saying that God created Adam and Eve with the capacity to know him, whereas we argue, in fact, that he created us knowing him, not that merely...

48:46

Of course, to know God means that we have the capacity, there's no debate about that, but we're saying that God actually created us knowing him because he created us to be worshiping beings, worshiping beings of him.

49:05

And this is borne out all the time, because why are there idols? Because God created us to be worshiping beings.

49:15

If we don't worship him, we're worshiping either ourselves or some other thing in creation, because that's the perversion of what

49:28

God intended us to be. And to give kudos to Aquinas, is it true, because I've heard differences amongst scholars on this and historians, but is it true that Thomas Aquinas shared with we who are

49:51

Reformed and Calvinists a view of double predestination? Well, he's an

49:56

Augustinian. So in that sense, it's been a while since I've read him on that topic, but I believe that's correct.

50:06

Now, I believe he's not very Augustinian on his understanding of sin, and that also comes into view when we're looking at apologetics.

50:18

But so Thomas's method of doing apologetics is to argue generically for the idea of a

50:28

God, and then when he gets to what we call special revelation, that is, the

50:37

Bible, and the history of revelation, and God's revealing himself over time to Israel and then to the person of his son,

50:48

Jesus Christ, then he can talk about the

50:53

God who actually exists. And that's the bone of contention.

51:01

And what we're saying is Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism as institutions, as denominations, if you want to use that language, are,

51:14

I think, historically or traditionally committed to that kind of view of God.

51:22

So those who are Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic, we try to use presuppositionalism as an apologetic method, either don't understand it, either they're redefining

51:43

Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theology, but they are certainly redefining presuppositionalism because presuppositionalism cannot be reduced to a mathematical formulation.

52:02

We will know, Chris, that there are some apologists who revel in reducing arguments to algebraic formula, because that can be done, that's called mathematical logic, right?

52:23

So it's showing, I'll give you an example,

52:30

William Dunbrell. In fact, can you pick up on William Dunbrell when we return from our midway break because we have to go to our middle break?

52:38

Sure thing! All right, folks, please be patient with us, folks, because the middle break, as always, is a little longer than the other breaks in the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:47

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they air, during this middle break, their own public service announcements in order to be faithful to the requirements of the

52:58

FCC, who demands that they localize geographically this program to Lake City, Florida.

53:06

While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. So please use this time wisely.

53:13

Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

53:24

And hopefully that will mean that you buy their products and use their services and visit their churches. But when you cannot do any of those things, if you really love the show and are grateful that there are individuals, businesses, and churches who are sharing the wealth that God has blessed them with, contact our advertisers and thank them for sponsoring

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Iron Trumpet and Zion Radio. Do that, and also send in your questions to Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

53:53

We'll be right back. Don't go away. The Mid -Atlantic

54:00

Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania featuring

54:10

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

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Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity.

54:26

The debate topic Is gay Christian a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's church?

54:32

So come join us for the 6th Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania and will run from Friday evening through all day

54:41

Saturday with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching with a theme of the

54:49

Gospel at War in many areas of our culture including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

54:57

Head to www .futureofchristendom .org James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

55:18

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

55:27

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I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Joseph Piper, president of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia. I'm the president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.

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01:11:29

Waddington on our theme, Reformed Theology and Presuppositionalism, how strong is the link,

01:11:36

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Also, do not forget about the three -day Bible conference that I am assisting to arrange with the

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Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society, three -day Bible conference featuring Dr. James R.

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White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, September 15th, 16th, and 17th.

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On Saturday the 16th, as a part of that conference, Dr. White will be debating

01:14:02

Dr. Gregory Coles, who identifies himself as a gay Christian.

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The theme of the debate will be, Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a

01:14:14

Member of Christ's Church? If you want to register and you want to get the best price for your registration, as quickly as possible, go to futureofchristendom .org,

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futureofchristendom .org, and you will get a discount if you do so very quickly. Also, if you are not a member of a biblically solid,

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Christ -honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church, no matter where you live on the planet

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Earth, I have extensive lists spanning the globe, and I've helped many people in our audience find a biblically faithful church near them, sometimes even with just a couple of minutes from where they live.

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And no matter where you live on the planet Earth, that may be you too. So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:15:01

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr.

01:15:06

Jeffrey C. Waddington on our theme, Reformed Theology and Presuppositionalism. chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:15:13

give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. And Dr. Waddington, I had to interrupt you right before the midway break.

01:15:20

You were citing a scholar, and if you could just pick up your thoughts.

01:15:28

I can't remember where. All's I remember, his name was William. Oh, William Dembski, yes,

01:15:37

I'm sorry. I was giving an example of apologetics done by mathematical algebraic formulations.

01:15:44

And Dembski's first, I believe it was his first book that kicks off the intelligent design movement, or his involvement in it.

01:15:54

And I had picked up a copy, ordered a copy, I should say, and when it arrived, it was one algebraic formula from beginning to end, covering about 200 pages, 250 pages.

01:16:08

And it sits on my shelf, and I do nothing with it, because I have no interest in translating the mathematical formula into prose.

01:16:19

So basically, the mathematical formulas in apologetics or philosophy are meant to be shorthand.

01:16:26

So if you're ever wondering why do philosophers, whether they're Christian or not, engage in what looks like algebraic formulas, it's because they're meant to be a shorthand version of an argument.

01:16:40

That's the point. And my point is presuppositionalism really cannot be reduced to a mathematical formulation.

01:16:51

However, during the break, an idea popped into my mind that had not been there before.

01:16:59

Two things. The first thing is, if Dr. Bonson is correct, and I believe he is, that the presuppositionalism is arguing from the impossibility of the contrary.

01:17:15

Note this. For Arminianism, or semi -Pelagianism, or Pelagianism, you cannot argue from the impossibility of the contrary, because the contrary is indeed quite possible.

01:17:33

Huh. Well, we have... Okay, so therein showeth me the intimate connection between Reformed theology and presuppositional apologetics.

01:17:52

Again, it doesn't mean that non -Reformed folk can't adapt it, but note that they are adapting it.

01:18:00

Or using elements. They're using elements. They're eclectic. They're approaching a presuppositionalism as if it were a salad bar, and you could choose from croutons, do you want iceberg lettuce, or do you want romaine lettuce, or maybe you want both iceberg and romaine, and cucumbers and carrots and radishes and peppers, etc.

01:18:24

And then you want to cover the whole thing in Thousand Island dressing, as undoubtedly

01:18:29

I would. Or maybe you want sliced hard -boiled eggs thrown into your salad.

01:18:36

You know, I wouldn't touch that with a ten -foot pole myself. But anyways, so...

01:18:43

I want a quart of chili on my salad. Oh, I like that. I like chili.

01:18:49

I've had a taco salad, right? It's basically that. But anyways, so the point is that the method, the arguing for the impossibility of the contrary, that is, what is the contrary?

01:19:06

The contrary of the triune God of Scripture and His revelation to His creation.

01:19:13

How about I put it, summarize it that way? Presuppositionalism seeks to defend the triune

01:19:20

God of Scripture and His revelation to His creation. Okay.

01:19:27

And the truth of the matter is the theology behind classical apologetics or evidentialism is, cannot argue from the impossibility of the contrary.

01:19:43

Because for those theologies, and their method is governed by their theology, those theologies have a view of God's relation to His world that is open to chance.

01:20:01

Now, Dr. Gerstner and Dr. Sproul, of course, would not allow for such things as chance.

01:20:09

Right. Not a chance. Being the fact that they believe every single thing that has ever occurred and ever will occur did so by the divine orchestration of God beforehand.

01:20:23

Thus, the impossibility of the contrary to the triune

01:20:29

God of Scripture and His revelation to His creation. So you see, their theology would seem to, the

01:20:37

Reformed theology they embrace, would seem to require a presuppositional method.

01:20:43

But because they, I would argue, and it's not meant to be, you know, poking fun at them, although I guess at the end of the day

01:20:52

I could, I wouldn't, because I hold them in high regard, that they have fundamental misunderstandings of Dr.

01:21:01

Van Til, for whatever reason. I'm not always sure. I think there are, we're now, you know, many years removed from those initial disagreements, and maybe we can look at them with a little more rigor,

01:21:19

I don't know, dispassion, although that's probably not true. We all hold to our views pretty passionately as Christians, I think.

01:21:32

And now, related to this, but different, is the fact that, let's use

01:21:39

Thomas Aquinas as the example, saying that we could do this with any theologian, but let's use

01:21:44

Thomas. Thomas' understanding of the Trinitarian nature of God impacts his doctrine of God, which is, no duh, that's what the doctrine of God is, right?

01:21:58

So he's not even thinking about his splitting of apologetic method into one part arguing for a

01:22:08

God, which, by the way, is the one

01:22:14

God, monotheism in the bare sense. And then, or to use the language of Ligon Duncan, God is a bare monad.

01:22:24

And then there is the apologetic that deals with the specific

01:22:31

Christian religion, which is afterwards. So Thomas feels as though he has to build a foundation of this neutral, non -particular

01:22:51

God, which, of course, means it's a God that doesn't exist. But apart from that, if you were to merely look at the theology of Thomas, you would discover that his understanding of the processions of the

01:23:08

Son and the Spirit from the Father already have errors that impact the rest of the theology, including the understanding of what the fall is and what salvation is and what the consummation will be.

01:23:28

So you cannot follow Thomas, in my opinion, you want to pick and choose, you may try to do that, but then you're creating what

01:23:38

I call in my blog post, which this is a follow -up on. You're creating a theological

01:23:46

Frankenstein. And that's, I'm particularly, I'm using that in purposeful sense.

01:23:55

That when you try, when you are either reformed and using the classical or evidential method or any other method than revelatory presuppositionalism, then you are creating a theological

01:24:09

Frankenstein. If you are not reformed and you're trying to use presuppositionalism, you are also creating a theological

01:24:17

Frankenstein, but from a different direction. So either one, either of those two are errors.

01:24:25

Specifically, in this instance, it was the error of trying to use presuppositionalism when you're not reformed.

01:24:35

And that's why my argument that if you're not reformed, if you are any form of Pelagian or Semipelagian or Arminian or weak

01:24:48

Augustinian, then you are going, you cannot argue for the impossibility of the contrary because you don't affirm

01:24:58

God's absolute sovereignty. So if you don't believe in God's absolute sovereignty in the sense that the reformed understand it, then you have to allow for possibility.

01:25:16

And the term possibility is not defined by God because God in an

01:25:23

Arminian world is not sovereign. He therefore does not have control over all aspects of history.

01:25:32

Therefore, the end, he doesn't know from the beginning, despite what he says in his word.

01:25:38

So that would be obviously a wide open door then for Thomism to,

01:25:47

I'm assuming, Molinists? Yes. You already know then that Molinism historically contributed to the rise of Arminianism.

01:25:58

Right. And then you have the extreme that is utter undeniable heresy.

01:26:07

Yeah, Pelagianism. Pelagianism and also those who deny that God is omniscient in all things, that especially when it comes to the actions of free humans, he does not know the future of these humans.

01:26:30

And these folks, I know that Arminians share with us a revulsion over that, but these folks call themselves consistent

01:26:40

Arminians. And they've been called that by reformed folk. I think even someone like John Frame in his book on the openness of God theology pointed out that, they are more consistent than their brothers and sisters in the other wings of the

01:27:02

Arminian tradition. Right. Now, when I was an Arminian, I wanted nothing to do with those folks, understand?

01:27:09

Right. So that's probably part of how I ended up. I was already reading reformed theologians, so I was compromised from the get -go,

01:27:17

I guess you could say. So think about that. If you cannot argue for the impossibility of the contrary, that is, we're arguing that the denial of the triune

01:27:34

God, who has revealed himself and his will for our salvation, to use language and standards, to his creation, right?

01:27:44

God communicates with his creation. Well, first he creates, and then he communicates, and then he saves because of the fall, right?

01:27:52

But we operate under the assumption that there is not one brass tack that is renegade in God's universe.

01:28:06

Right. By the way, does this also include this whole dilemma, the impeccability versus peccability of Christ, where there are some who say that Christ could not have been tempted in all ways such as we are, unless there was a possibility theoretically that he was able to yield to sin, and yet he never did?

01:28:32

Is that whole controversy? Well, yes, it's good that you pick up on that,

01:28:39

Chris, because that would be an entailment of our discussion. If we explain that you can affirm the sinlessness of Christ and yet think that he could have fallen, and those of us who uphold the impeccability of Christ are saying, actually, no, he could not have fallen.

01:29:04

And there are several reasons for that, of which one would be the divine nature upholding the human nature, and if he had fallen, that would have caused a split in his two natures, which would be impossible, and two, denial of the truth of prophecy, which is one of the arguments that Jonathan Edwards used against the denial of God's sovereignty is because, well, when he was discussing the impeccability of Christ, which is that not only that he did not sin, but he could not sin.

01:29:39

Now, the criticism is you brought up, I'm sorry, brother, the criticism you brought up is typically that that means that his temptations were not real.

01:29:48

Right. Which the response is given, and I think it's a good response, is that, in fact,

01:29:57

Christ is the only one to totally resist every temptation to which he faced.

01:30:07

The rest of us, undoubtedly, at some point give in, so we cannot say that we have resisted to the end, for Christ can and did resist to the very end, so he knows the full extent of temptation.

01:30:26

Now, what he didn't have, which is related to our question here, is he didn't have a sinful nature.

01:30:34

You see, we have a sinful nature, and we ascribe that, so we need to make a distinction between temptation, which comes from outside of us, and attracts our sinful nature.

01:30:50

So I think it was Michael Horton who described the sinful nature as being a form of Velcro.

01:30:58

So what Christ didn't have was that internal Velcro to which a temptation could attach itself.

01:31:07

Yes, there are people that misunderstand Hebrews 4 .15

01:31:14

because they have a modern understanding of the word tempted and temptation because of the way it's almost exclusively used in our day as a person is actually contemplating and fantasizing about the sin and wanting to do it, but then either they yield to that or they say, no,

01:31:40

I know that I want to do this, but I'm not going to do it, like a person lusting over a woman in a bikini or a chocolate cake when they're diabetic, whatever the case is.

01:31:53

And there was actually, I'm not going to mention his name because he may have changed his mind, a very world -renowned, popular

01:32:01

Nazarene Christian who had a worldwide radio program, possibly even a

01:32:09

TV program, who I remember when I worked for Salem Media, at least three people independently of each other approached me and said, did you hear what

01:32:19

Dr. So -and -so just said? He said that Jesus wanted to commit sin on many occasions, but he never yielded to it.

01:32:28

And I said, wanting to commit sin is a sin! Well, you see, and that, of course, now we've caught up, we've been caught up in the question of same -sex attraction.

01:32:43

Right. Right. Because anything that disposes us to sin is itself sinful.

01:32:49

Yes. And so, and that's why, and that's been a big argument, right?

01:32:55

It's been a big debate, say, within the PCA over the movement out of St.

01:33:05

Louis. Revoice. Revoice, thank you. I was having a senior moment there. And I, you know, for the longest time now,

01:33:16

I've understood that a sinful desire is a desire that is leaning towards sin is itself sin or sinful.

01:33:27

So that you cannot, and again, so what I was getting at was there is a distinction between our sinful nature or desires and the external object of temptation.

01:33:43

And what Jesus did not have was the internal desires that were sinful.

01:33:53

Right. He was born in the likeness of sin, but he was not himself either sin, he did not sin, and he did not desire to sin.

01:34:08

By the way, I want to quickly add a caveat. I do not mean to insinuate by my former remark that all

01:34:15

Nazarenes agree with that understanding that Jesus often wanted to commit sin but never yielded to it.

01:34:23

Yeah, I would say as a former like Nazarene in the

01:34:31

Salvation Army, I myself would have rejected that idea. Right. And would have said to him, you know, on the side, brother, you need to rethink that.

01:34:43

Right. The man was never known for being a theologian, he was more of a philosopher.

01:34:49

Understand that in Wesleyan circles, they have theologians, but when they talk about theologians in the average pulpit, theologians are not held in high esteem, generally speaking, from my experience.

01:35:07

We do have a listener, CJ in Lyndonhurst, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, have you ever heard of The Failure of Natural Theology, a

01:35:20

Critical Appraisal of the Philosophical Theology of Thomas Aquinas by Jeffrey D. Johnson? Well, he asked the perfect person that, because you wrote an endorsement for that book.

01:35:30

I did, yes, I have. I read it before it was published and was quite impressed with it.

01:35:39

So, yes, I have. Yes, in fact, you can listen to interviews that I've done with the author of that book,

01:35:47

Jeffrey D. Johnson, at irontripandzioneradio .com. Just type his name into the search engine,

01:35:53

Jeffrey D. Johnson. And the publisher is Free Grace Press, so you could get that book.

01:36:02

And Dr. Johnson also wrote a companion book,

01:36:07

Saving Natural Theology from Thomas Aquinas. And by the way, now that I am looking at that website for Free Grace Press, I can see

01:36:17

Dr. Waddington's endorsement. Jeffrey Johnson has provided the

01:36:22

Church of Jesus Christ with a solid and insightful study of Thomas Aquinas. The author has done the necessary spade work and gets down into the details of Thomas' thought regarding natural theology.

01:36:34

And he writes, clearly and compellingly, future work on the significance of Thomas will necessitate reckoning with the argument set forth herein.

01:36:44

Wow, that's a powerful endorsement. Yeah, I have to say that Jeff's work, and probably because his name is

01:36:52

Jeff, all Jeffs are committed to excellence, Thomas Jefferson.

01:36:59

No, I'm just kidding. His work, you know, you do know, I'm sure you know this,

01:37:04

Chris, but Jeff Johnson has, I believe, established a Reformed Baptist Seminary.

01:37:11

Yes. And James White and Owen Strand. Yes.

01:37:18

And others are on the faculty. Scott Anuel and others. Yes. So, I mean, you've got...

01:37:25

In fact, Josh Bice, founder of the G3 Ministries, is also newly added to the faculty.

01:37:31

Oh, okay, very good. So, you've got a good group there.

01:37:39

Owen Strand is also a student of Edwards, so he and I have that element in common.

01:37:46

He's also the son -in -law of Bruce Ware, who is a professor at Southern Baptist Seminary.

01:37:53

But anyway, so Jeff did a fine job. Actually, both books.

01:38:01

The Saving Natural Theology is a smaller book. In fact, those two books would be the ones

01:38:10

I would recommend to anybody who has questions about Thomas. So, folks, you can go to FreeGracePress .com.

01:38:20

FreeGracePress .com. And if you type in Aquinas, those two books will come up. Yes. I mean, there are lots of excellent books on various aspects of Thomas' theology, written by men and women who agree with Thomas, who are convinced by...

01:38:37

who are Thomistic scholars. You can be a Thomistic scholar without yourself being a

01:38:43

Thomist, but many of these folk, they dare out the insights of Van Til and his students.

01:38:57

And they have no dog in our hunt. You understand that?

01:39:02

These are Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox scholars who are looking at Thomas' theology in detail.

01:39:12

I mean, and there are... and many of them are well -written, so they're not like Thomas.

01:39:21

They're not a slog. So you get some really good writers who are studying aspects of Thomas.

01:39:28

So there are other books out there. But if you're looking for... if you're just wanting to get kind of the heart of the matter, then those two books are a good way to go.

01:39:42

There are some things that are in the works that I will one day be able to add to that list.

01:39:49

But I would say that Jeff's work would be hard to improve upon without greatly expanding it.

01:40:01

It would end up becoming a multi -volume set, which we may need, to be honest, because of the situation we're dealing with now with the rise in popularity of Thomas.

01:40:12

The point is, Thomas' theology, his specific Trinitarian theology and his understanding of man as created in God's image, his understanding of God's natural revelation, an expression that does not occur in Thomas Aquinas, in any of his writings, as far as I can tell.

01:40:33

And then his understanding of the Fall and salvation and the beatific vision, all of that takes a form that it does because of Thomas' doctrine of God.

01:40:48

So you can't say, as some have wanted to say, and there's a new book on the

01:40:58

Reformation that Matthew Barrett has produced, which I haven't gotten into fully yet, but I'm going to, and it's kind of a defense of the

01:41:07

Reformation as a rediscovery of Thomas. And there is...

01:41:13

Even though John Calvin apparently despised him. Well, the thing is,

01:41:18

Thomas Aquinas is part of the literary and theological tradition of the time.

01:41:27

Remember, we're talking about the time of the Reformation, or within 25 years of Martin Luther's work, so that they're still reading him as a conversation partner in a way that we don't because we have 500 plus years post -Reformation.

01:41:47

All right, we've got to go to our final break, and you can pick up where you left off. We'll be right back with Dr.

01:41:53

Waddington. Don't go away. The Mid -Atlantic

01:41:59

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1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com, and please post that website and phone number to your refrigerator or anywhere else.

01:54:17

Even if you don't need it now, you never know when you will need it or when a loved one needs it. We're back with Jeff Waddington, and we do have a listener question.

01:54:26

I think that's an ideal way to conclude the program. We have an anonymous listener who says,

01:54:33

Why can't you leave the non -reformed in blissful ignorance about their inconsistency when they adopt presuppositionalism when they are not reformed, such as when the non -reformed will state emphatically that they give

01:54:49

Jesus Christ 100 % of the praise, honor, and glory for their salvation, when in reality that is inconsistent logically?

01:55:02

Yeah, that makes sense, because if they really believe that they have a part, even in a small way, in their salvation, they really can't say that they give 100 % of the praise, honor, and glory to Jesus Christ.

01:55:13

But anyway, what are your thoughts? Biblically speaking, there is no justification for leaving anyone in their ignorance.

01:55:21

Yep. Okay, so basically that would be—now, you know, when you're talking to someone individually, you don't hit them over the head with everything you read in the

01:55:33

Van Til book, okay? Right? Or with the book itself, hitting them over the head.

01:55:39

Right, either the physical objects or the content of what you've read.

01:55:44

So you want—doing, I think, in our day, especially, doing apologetics, which of course is meant to lead a person to Christ, not win an argument, per se.

01:56:00

Although I don't think we want to be afraid of winning arguments, but it's how we do it. Dr. Van Til had a fancy Latin expression, suavitor in modo fortitor in re, which means sweet in manner, strong in content.

01:56:21

So he was basically looking at how the Bible does this. Yes. Depending on if you're facing

01:56:30

Simon Magus or you're facing Ilnus, the magician on the

01:56:39

Isle of Crete, that kind of a person, or Janice and Jambers in the

01:56:45

Old Testament facing Moses, those men are to be faced down very strongly in terms of your mode, your method or manner, the way you do it.

01:57:00

Right? But very often the way we need to do apologetics today is by asking questions.

01:57:10

And increasingly, if I could put it this way, peeling back the layers of the onion, and in many instances simply asking the question, why?

01:57:22

Why do you think that? Why do you believe that? And they can do the same with us.

01:57:30

We have an answer because of God's Word. The God who has revealed Himself in His Word, the

01:57:36

God who has also created this world to which He speaks. Now, other than the sin of we who are presuppositionalists leaving somebody in their ignorance intentionally, what is the greatest harm that is done by a non -Reform person claiming to be a presuppositionalist and acting accordingly?

01:58:00

Well, the greatest harm is the failure to reckon with the truth.

01:58:08

In other words, presuppositionalism is not, as a matter of fact, a generic method that can be taken on board by Christians of other theological persuasions, not without either fudging on their theology or fudging on the presuppositional method.

01:58:30

By the way, we're out of time, brother, and I want to give the website where you can read a written form of our discussion today, which was a blog article at revealedapologetics .com,

01:58:43

revealedapologetics .com, the ministry of my very good friend Eli Ayala. Just type in Waddington into the search engine,

01:58:51

W -A -D -D -I -N -G -T -O -N, and you will have that article. Thank you so much.

01:58:57

You're welcome. You did a wonderful job. I look forward to your return to the show. I want to wish everybody a very safe, happy, and healthy and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day.

01:59:09

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.