But Your Tone!

Conversations That Matter

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Welcome to Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris. I got an email this morning from a listener who wanted to know what he should do to the objection from his pastor that his tone is wrong when he talks about social justice and tries to bring some discernment, maybe correction, certainly concern to bear on that topic with his pastor.

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And I don't know all the specifics of the situation. I can't. I'm not in the situation. But I do know in general, this is an objection that is thrown out there a lot and it's very useful and I don't know about this specific situation, but in situations

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I do know more about, it is a very convenient way to neutralize opposition because you don't have to deal with any arguments.

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You don't have to actually get into the truth and see if there's merits into what more conservative theological critics are saying about a certain topic, whether it's social justice or another topic.

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All you have to do is accuse them of having the wrong tone and in our postmodern world, that is very attractive.

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I mean, everything seems to be about style and optics and fashion and very little has to do with actual truth, objective truth.

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Someone can actually communicate something, a truth, in a very wrong way with the wrong attitude. You can even preach the gospel from false motives, from bad motives, but it doesn't take away from the truth of the message that's being communicated.

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Oftentimes, in our day and age, unfortunately, even if someone doesn't have a bad motive, isn't using a negative tone or a harsh tone, they can still be accused of that and then for whatever reason, those who accuse the person of that don't actually have to deal with the real objections.

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I've seen this play over and over and over. In fact, there is a professor at a Southern Baptist, former professor at a

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Southern Baptist seminary who probably wouldn't appreciate me mentioning their name, but they said that they always get you on fashion points, meaning whenever a conservative, theologically conservative person brings a concern up and they're told that, well, your tone is off.

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I might agree with your reasoning, but your tone is off, therefore, we can't accept your correction in this area.

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It's a style thing. It's not, did you actually do a good job? Did you actually do your homework? It's just, well, we don't like you.

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We don't like the way you're coming across. It's actually a very personal objection. It's very personal and sometimes hurtful when you hear that from someone maybe that's close to you, if in fact, your tone and your attitude is pure.

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I want to talk about this because there's a few, I think there's a number of assumptions and misnomers and unfortunately, even people who are very theologically astute in other areas seem to miss what the

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Bible actually says about this topic and I can't cover everything in this one episode. I do want people to know

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I have covered some things that relate to what I'm going to say today. If you want to go look up the episode

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I did, I did one, I believe, on the 11th commandment. Thou shalt not criticize another evangelical or Southern Baptist.

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I know I did one on finding a church and how to know if your church is the right one. We talked about one of the criteria being, do elders meet the qualifications?

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Of course, in that is the, in the qualifications for being an elder is hospitality.

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It's a knowing that person and more often than not, I find that people who get accused of these things don't have the relationship oftentimes with their pastor to be able to even approach something like this on a personal level.

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That might not be their fault. It may just be the way the pastor is. Many churches are very guarded and unfortunately, they don't take those qualifications as seriously as maybe they should.

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You have people that are in powerful positions who are wanting to maintain power, even though it's a church.

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It's something that you're a slave of Christ at best. You're working with God's people, but people can be, pastors, and I've seen this many times, can be very protective and you may not know them.

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When you approach them with something, it's deemed as offensive. It's deemed as, how dare you, because that relationship hasn't been built.

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I would encourage people to go check out that episode that I did on criteria for finding a church and you can find out more about that there.

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I think it might help just sort of as a pre, just before you get to this point of having these issues, maybe you want to choose a better church or maybe plant one.

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Maybe there's not a church in your area and you're stuck in the area, you need to plant a church or something. That's for another discussion and I've done other videos on that topic.

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Today, we're just focused on tone, so you've gotten to this point and more often than not, it's a layman coming to a pastor or it's a worker in a para -church organization coming to someone who's over them, a supervisor of some kind and sharing a concern.

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Hey, we published this and it's in error. There's some language in it that subverts the gospel.

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There's some language in it that subverts a Christian ethic or there's some language in it that subverts an objective reality that undercuts the very idea of revelation.

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These are really the three major categories that the social justice movement is attacking. We could expand that to in the ethical departments, to gender norms and these kinds of things.

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If someone brings in any of these three categories an objection, this is often the response. Well, you're insubordinate, your tone is off, how dare you?

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They're made to feel like they're the ones with the problem when in reality, even if they came with a wrong spirit, sometimes what they're saying is true and it should be listened to.

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I'd encourage if you're someone listening and you're in a position of authority, maybe this is something you want to just think about.

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Are you a little too jumpy when someone comes to you with an issue? Certainly there are situations where someone can come and with a prideful disposition, but still it's always helpful to listen to, okay, what are they saying?

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Maybe even if they're prideful and maybe that deserves correction, they might be saying something true still and it may be worth hearing.

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Let's go through some of this. I hope it's truly edifying for all of you. There's going to be a lot of scripture in this.

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Some guiding principles, some guiding principles before you even get to the point of sharing a concern or a correction or a piece of discernment here.

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James 4 .6 says, but God gives grace, gives a greater grace. Therefore it says God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

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This is a principle that I've often just thought through in my own life when I'm talking to someone.

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I need to impose some kind of a correction or a discernment or just a concern that I have.

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Of course, people have come to me and hopefully they're thinking the same thing because I'm certainly not perfect and I make mistakes and I have sinned.

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The principle is that we should be like God in this. God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

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Way the Master, I remember years ago I used to be involved with that and they would say, well, you use a lot of the proud, grace of the humble. That's the pattern in scripture for sharing the gospel.

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And I think I would agree with that primarily. If someone doesn't think they're a sinner, they think they're good, then they need the law to do a work in them to show them, no, you're not.

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So they need it proven to them. They need it shown to them. They may already know, but they need it repeated. But if they're already humble, if they're, you know that they're lawbreakers, if they know they're in need of a savior, then you just give them grace, you give them the gospel.

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And that's a principle that works not only in evangelism, but it works in really a lot of your relationships in life, all of them.

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If someone is prideful, if they don't think they're in the wrong, you have to show them somehow, you have to spell it out for them.

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And that's going to mean correction. It's going to mean the way that you're coming across may be found to be harsh in their mind and they may characterize it as such, but you have to do it.

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And of course, it's always better when someone's humble and they're willing to accept correction.

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You don't know until you start approaching the situation. And then 1 Peter 5, 5 says, you younger men likewise be subject to your elders and all of you clothe yourselves with humility toward one another for God, as opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

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Same passage, same wording here, same passage taken here in 1 Peter 5, 5, but applied to something different.

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Now, I want to say something on this because this is often abused by more authoritarian churches, elders in those churches.

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And it doesn't need to be the context. Actually, I think I have my Bible here. I'm going to look it up real quick.

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The context of 1 Peter 5, I'm going to actually read the verses before it. I exhort the elders among you, verse 1, as your fellow elder and witness to the sufferings of Christ and partakers also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but voluntarily according to the will of God and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness, nor yet as alerting it over those allotted to your charge, but providing to the examples to the flock, proving to be examples to the flock.

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And when the chief shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. And then you have this passage that I just read. And I think it's talking about younger men spiritually.

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I don't think this is an age thing. That's just my opinion on it, because it would seem to contradict other things we find in Scripture, like Paul telling

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Timothy, don't let anyone look down on you for your youth, that kind of thing. I mean, the fact that Jesus is 30, you know, doing ministry,

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I don't think it's an age thing as much as it is a and certainly there is a respect for someone with gray hair, but I don't think that's what they're getting at in this particular passage.

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That being said, there is a role here for the elders. The elders are not to be lording it over those in their charge.

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That's wrong, too. That's a violation. If you look at First Peter, chapter two, it also includes relationships of government, relationships of slaves and masters.

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So there are certainly other spheres of authority that have authority. So the authority of an elder is not over everything in a person's life.

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That is a misnomer. Some people I've come across have had that because they watch over your souls, that's just everything.

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No, it's not. It's related to things specifically within the church.

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It's related to correcting false teaching. I mean, look at the I'm not gonna go through it now, but look at the requirements for elders, what they're supposed to be able to do.

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Correcting false teaching is one of them. They're supposed to be able to shepherd the flock, to tend the flock. It's really concentrated on the ecclesiastical role.

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It doesn't mean that they have, you know, they can tell you where you should work and these kinds of things. They can give you scriptural principles, obviously they can.

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But hopefully, you know, you don't have to. You're not dealing with that kind of a relationship. Hopefully the relationship with your pastor is the one described in First Peter in the beginning where you have a good working relationship.

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You know, you know that they care for you. As Hebrews says, they're watching over your souls. You have respect for them. And they also are not lording it over you because they love you.

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They're a servant to God. And in being a servant to God, their charge is to help you.

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But unfortunately, that relationship, like other human relationships, tends to break down. Husband -wife relationships, employer -employee relationships, or in the ancient world, slave master, parents, children.

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So obviously there's a hierarchy, but the hierarchy isn't absolute. And so I wanted to say that.

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But that being said, this is true. First Peter 5 .5 is absolutely true. When you're going to approach an elder on something, you're subject to them.

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If you have put yourself under their charge, you're at their church. Clothe yourselves with humility towards one another.

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So does this affect tone? It might. You're going to approach with respect. You're not going to be reaming someone out, at least not initially.

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You may get to that point. Maybe you figure out, hey, this person's not even qualified to be an elder. This is a usurper. This is someone, you know, and maybe you get to that point.

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But initially, no, this isn't, you want to start off here. If they have that office legitimately, you have humility.

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And then, of course, 1 Thessalonians 5 .14 says, we urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the faint -hearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

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Very helpful grid. When you're correcting someone or someone that's promoting a teaching that maybe they're not aware of, are they unruly?

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Are they faint -hearted? Are they weak? Now, you're supposed to be patient with everyone, no matter what category they fit in, but if they are unruly, you're going to admonish them.

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Okay. And even with, I think, a pastor, it can get someone who has the authority or the office, whether they're a usurper or not,

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I think there are situations where it can get to this point, I believe. Encourage the faint -hearted.

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If they are, you know, they're having trouble, they're walking the Christian life, and it's just, they're exhausted.

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They need encouragement. You don't want to come at them if they've participated in a sin, especially if they're aware of it, and it's just, man,

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I've been tangled up in this thing, and it just keeps getting the best of me. You encourage that person. And if they're weak, if they don't have understanding, if they're ignorant, if they're having trouble grasping something, you help them.

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Here, let me show you. This is the grid to use. And often the issue of approaching someone with correction when there's a mismatch category is what causes a lot of friction.

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So if you admonish the faint -hearted or admonish the weak, you're going to cause a problem. If you're encouraging the unruly and you forget about the admonition, then you're causing a problem.

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That person just keep doing what they're doing. And so you can see how that would be a problem. So you do need to exercise some discernment initially.

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Think about it. Who are you dealing with? And if you don't know the person, then it's hard to do it. And that's why I think a lot of people that approach their pastor or supervisor, they don't really know them on a level that's personal, which is a problem.

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So here's another guiding principle. Be angry, but don't be angry. Ephesians 4 .2 says, be angry and yet do not sin.

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Do not let the sun go down on your anger. And there's two words here. One's a verb, one's a noun. Orgizo and parorgizmos are the two words.

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And I think of it this way. The be angry is, this is something you're supposed to do.

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And I want to use two illustrations from scripture. I think Mark 3 .5 demonstrates kind of what this is like. After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, he, that is

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Jesus, said to the man, stretch out your hand. And he stretched it out and his hand was restored. There was anger there, it says.

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Jesus had anger, grieved at their hardness of heart. There's an anger that is also accompanying a grief.

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There should be a sadness that this person's in error. There should be a sadness that someone is doing something harmful to others and to the

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Lord, or at least against the Lord, against his law. And so there should be kind of a, not a selfish kind of anger, but an anger that something very sacred has been violated, that you care about, that you love, that you're beholden to, that is your duty to defend.

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And then the second one, I think of Numbers 20, 9 through 12. So Moses took the rod from before the

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Lord, just as he commanded him. And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, listen now, you rebels, shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?

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Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod and water came forth abundantly. And the congregation and their beasts drank.

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But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, because you have not believed me to treat me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which

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I have given them. So Moses is angry at them, but it's more of a personal anger. Shall we do this?

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He's not giving credit to the Lord. And he's striking this rock out of an anger that his authority has been challenged.

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So there's a selfishness. And I think that's the root motivation here is how to understand Ephesians 4 .2.

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Is your motivation in your anger that you have a zeal for the Lord, a true zeal, that's a righteous indignation, or is your anger a selfish,

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I can't believe they did this to me, or I can't believe they're, you know, it's some kind of like, I don't know, disrespect of self.

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And so that's a good way to determine, okay, is your anger righteous or not? What's the motive behind it?

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The other thing is, if you have a righteous anger, you also, this sounds like maybe a balancing act, but there needs to be gentleness.

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And I think you can do that. I think Jesus did that. Look what he did. He was angry, he was saddened, and he healed the man.

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See, there was a gentleness there. If you look at 2 Timothy 2, it says, in verse 17, it's talking about two people,

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Hymenaeus and Philetus. Their talk will spread like gangrene. And it describes in this, men who have gone astray from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

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Okay, these are false teachers. Skip over to verse 23, but refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.

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The Lord's bond servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness, correcting those who are in opposition.

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If perhaps God may grant them repentance, leading to the knowledge of the truth. They may come to their senses, escape the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

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This is talking about people who are false teachers in the context here. And even with false teachers, there should be a gentleness in the correction.

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Those are who, correct those who are in opposition. That God may grant them repentance, that's the goal here.

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So this is, and this is, I think, an initial thing. This is the initial step. I think once, there is a point in which you correct someone enough, you escalate the situation, it becomes, don't eat with that person, right?

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Don't associate with that person. That person is, you know, I've given them over to the devil kind of thing.

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But initially, at the very least, there should be, there needs to be a gentleness. That needs to under, be an undercurrent.

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It is part of the fruit of the spirit in Galatians 5 .23. Second Timothy 3 .15 also says, "'But sanctify

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Christ as Lord in your hearts, "'always being ready to make a defense to everyone "'who asks you to give an account "'for the hope that is in you with gentleness and respect.'"

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So those who aren't even saved, those who aren't Christians, approach them with gentleness and respect. Make your defense with gentleness.

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Now, if it counts for those who are false teachers, if it counts for those who are not

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Christians, how much more does it count for those who are in the church? So how do you balance that?

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How do you have an anger that's a righteous indonation and a gentleness? I think the answer is, the anger is from, you know,

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God's truth has been violated. I'm angry about this. But I'm gonna start with sort of a benefit of the doubt here.

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You know, maybe you're ignorant of it. Maybe this is not a malicious thing. I'm here to correct you. I'm here to help you. There's the gentleness.

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I'm here to help. And of course, if they're unruly, then things change a little.

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You know, you're gonna have to start admonishing. Even that though,

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I think there can be an undercurrent of gentleness there. But it doesn't mean that you don't get angry and you don't visibly show that anger.

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I mean, if someone was having their way with your wife or your children or something,

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I mean, what would your response be? And if someone is having their way with the souls of men, how should your response be?

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So there should be an anger. There should be a rushing to defend. If someone is, though, like I said, ignorant of a false teaching, if they don't quite understand, it hasn't clicked in their minds, then you approach them a little differently,

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I think. What about elders? And here's the big thing, I think. This is the situation many find themselves in.

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You're going to a church, you've been there 10 years, 30 years, five years, whatever the case is. Everything was going fine, and then boom,

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BLM movement, boom, COVID shutdowns, whatever the case is, you have a disagreement.

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Now, maybe it's a disagreement that if it's, especially the social justice influence disagreement, it's serious.

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What do you do when your elders are either platforming people of different minority statuses to get the perspective of the oppressed, this postmodern idea?

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And then we got to diversify our library because they have a perspective we don't have access to and destroys the fabric of revelation, to give you a for instance.

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What do you do in this situation? Well, Galatians 2 .14, I think helps us. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel,

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I said to Cephas in the presence of all, and this is Peter, this is an apostle, right? More authority than your pastor.

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And what does Paul say? If you being a Jew live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the

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Gentiles to live like Jews? He challenges him. And the way in which he challenges him is not,

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I mean, you could say, well, Paul's an apostle too. Well, it's outside of his wheelhouse though. It's like going to someone else's church in a way.

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Now he's an apostle, but there is no rule laid down in this that says, well, only apostles can do this kind of thing.

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In fact, I think what Paul's doing is giving us an example. It's in scripture for a reason, showing us that this needs to be corrected.

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1 Timothy 5, 19 through 21 says, do not accept an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

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Those who continue in sin rebuke in the presence of all so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

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I solemnly exhort you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and his chosen angels to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

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So there is a way, and this may be a little farther down the path. This may be, you're accusing them now.

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This is farther than I'm concerned. This is, you are promoting a false teaching here. Do it though on the basis of two, don't accept that kind of an accusation, it says, without the basis of two or three witnesses.

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That means though, there's a mechanism for doing this. Two or three people can make this, who are laymen can come forward and say, look,

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I'm having a problem. It's what the pastor said, it's wrong. Again though, this is 1

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Timothy. Timothy would also be a leader at the church there. And so this is something that hopefully is in a functioning church.

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This is going to be handled within the elders, the elder board or whatever.

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There's going to be an elder there who is committed to truth and not committed to the good old boys club or something like that, or maintaining power.

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I mean, if they're committed to that, I'd say leave the church, if you can, if you sense that, but hopefully you have a functioning church. But even if that's not so, someone that that's not the case, someone has to be the ones to sort of sign off on and verify that an elder is someone who actually matches the qualifications.

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And if they don't match the qualifications, then there's no reason for them to be an elder. They don't deserve the office.

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That's not who they are. And so I do think this is, and again, some people disagree with me on this. It's just my own polity coming out here.

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I do think that there is a case for reaffirming from the congregation elders. I don't believe in congregation. I'm not a congregation rule guy.

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I think there's elder rule, but I think that you have to affirm that these elders are actually qualified.

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And so there is from the congregation a check there. I mean, and whatever mechanism used to do that,

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I'm not telling you how it's done. I'm just saying that it has to be done somehow. And then you have 1

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Timothy 5, two, do not sharply rebuke an older man, but rather appeal to him as a father, to the younger men as brothers and older women as mothers and younger women as sisters in all purity.

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And this is the person Paul said, don't let anyone look down on your youth. But yet at the same time, there is, don't be sharp with an older man.

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You need to approach this person a little differently than you would someone who's your age. And I think that that is appropriate.

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That's what Paul says. I think that's something we're supposed to learn from there. There is a place though for a harsher tone.

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And this is where I want to, we're gonna talk about tone now. The idea that it's wrong to have a harsh tone, that you must always be quote unquote winsome is absolutely wrong.

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This is not biblical. Galatians 4 says, my children with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you, but I could wish to be present with you now and to change my tone of voice, for I am at a loss about you.

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Paul expresses his desire to change his tone, but he can't, because he's correcting error.

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His tone is going to sound harsh. Tone, a sound, noise, voice, language, dialect, going to be harsh.

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Hebrews 6, 9, but beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way, assuring them, look, we know you're

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Christians, but look, I gotta warn you, I'm speaking in this harsh way. I'm speaking in this direct way.

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You see in Matthew 9, Jesus went on from there, two men who were blind followed him, crying out, have mercy on us, son of David, and long and short of it, he heals them, and in verse 30 of Matthew 9, their eyes were opened and Jesus sternly warned them, saying, see that no one knows about this, but they disregarded what

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Jesus said. So Jesus uses a stern tone at times, and there is a place for it.

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Strong's Concordance says that this is, it expresses an indignant displeasure with someone.

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So there are times to do this. And so this may not be the cookie cutter, black and white answer that some people would want.

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How are we supposed to apply this to our situation? It's gonna take some discernment, but you're gonna want to balance, you're gonna want, not balance, it's not the word

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I wanna use here. You're gonna wanna take these scriptures and you're going to wanna take them all into account and then approach the situation accordingly.

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Here's the practical advice though I wanna give, and this may be some of the more, this may be the more helpful thing for the situation many find themselves in now.

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The goal I think should be to get past the tone objection. So this is what I would do.

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You're not, we're often not always aware of the way we come across, right? You just think of your marriage relationship or the way you can come across to your children, or if you're a child, the way you can come across to your parents.

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Sometimes you say things you think it's innocuous and they find it very offensive. And I think in those situations, at the very least you can apologize for that.

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You know, I'm sorry, I'm not always aware of the way I come across and forgive me for offending you in this way.

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I still though care about the message that I was trying to deliver to you. I still am concerned about this error that is coming into our church.

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And if you're approaching a pastor, I think that's what you can do. He says, well, your tone is off. And I was, oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to do that.

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Be as humble as you can possibly be in your position, but be angry about the error. You know, look,

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I'm angry that this error came in, but you know, I don't mean to cause an offense by my tone.

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I think if you can do that, you can try to get past the tone objection. Because usually that's a conversation stopper.

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It's a way to neutralize opposition. Don't let it be that. Don't let it be a way to neutralize opposition. If you come to the conclusion that you were wrong in your tone, it came across very angry at the person, and it wasn't a righteous anger.

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It was an unrighteous anger, a selfish kind of anger. You felt you were disrespected or something along those lines.

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Then you can certainly apologize. But even if you don't think that, you can still at least acknowledge that objection.

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You'd say, look, I am not trying to do that. I'm sorry that it's come across that way. It's certainly not my motivation.

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And then go right back onto the point that you originally had. This is the concerning thing that I see.

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Can we talk about that? Can we talk about the false teaching? And so that's my encouragement to you all as you're navigating these things with your pastors, with those in para -church organizations.

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I hope that helps you think through how to approach this. Again, sometimes you're finding out things, and I hate to say it, but it's true.

27:24

So many of you are finding out that the pastor that you thought you respected is not the man that you thought he was in general, and is not able to take the least bit of critique or even helpful advice, is not approachable.

27:39

If you have a pastor that's not approachable, I think this might sound harsh, but I think it's time to start looking for another church.

27:46

It doesn't mean that you're looking for a pastor who's gonna do everything you say. That's not what it means at all. But it means that you want a pastor who actually matches the qualifications.

27:53

And here's two that stand out to me that relate to this. Number one, they're supposed to be hospitable. You should probably know your pastor, at least on a level that you've, hopefully you've been to their house.

28:03

You've seen them outside the context of just them preaching. You know them more on a personal level.

28:10

That should be, I think, part of who the pastor is. And I realize that gets harder when you have a large church. And I'm not,

28:17

I tend to be more of the, let's once a church gets to a certain size and that human scale is too big for pastors, and you can't really know them, then

28:26

I think you start planning other churches. That's my position on that. But it's fine if someone disagrees with me on that.

28:32

I just, you have to figure out how this qualification, how it would work in your assembly, whatever that is.

28:38

I think that a pastor needs to be hospitable, needs to have hospitality shown to the members of his congregation, or else he can't really know them either.

28:46

Second thing though that I think applies here, and there could be more, is they need to be able to refute those who contradict.

28:52

And if there is a gaping hole in a pastor's discernment, and we all have limitations, but if they cannot see something that is false teaching very clearly, you don't wanna put that person in charge of your children or your wife, if you're a husband or your family.

29:07

You don't want them to be the ones that are keeping charge over their souls because they can't even quite keep charge over their own soul completely.

29:14

Now, there are all kinds of scenarios in which this is gonna play out differently, and we all have limitations.

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So I think you think of even Peter, how he was not being clear about the gospel. I think the reaction, you're looking for a reaction that is an approachability, that thank you so much for coming to me and sharing this, let me think about it.

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But if they think about it, if they've had enough time, if they have the resources, they've been approached, and they're still not budging, and false teaching's okay, then you know it's time to go.

29:45

That's some practical stuff there, and it's gonna look different for each one of you. So I hope that helps you in whatever situation you're part of.

29:53

Maybe it raises more questions than it answers, but that's a good thing. It's good to think through these things. And hopefully, the person who reached out to me this morning,

30:02

I hope you were helped as well, because I would hate to be in that situation, it stinks.

30:08

But I know a lot of people are in it. So hey, God bless, and there'll be more material coming, hopefully helpful, practical material.

30:14

I have an idea for a blog I wanna share on how to vet someone in a search committee on the topic of social justice.