Season 2 Episode 1 - Abortion

right Lucy yeah, okay

Guys welcome back to the point taken Podcast this is the podcast where we make and take spiritual and biblical questions and chat it up My name is hunter.

I'm the host of this podcast Love to do it. Great. I don't I heard you whispering and I wish that you just wouldn't

Know I understand one time. We've already done it a couple times. It's one time where we don't know

We haven't done it where we don't one time where we don't and then the people Beginning of the new season they may not know

What are we talking about To my left as always

Pastor Josiah Shipley now the question for pastor. Sia already is are you happy to be here, dude?

I'm very happy to be here. Welcome shoulder everybody. All right, there it is instead of welcome. There's nothing I can do at this point

Just pick a different To my right here is Andrew built by God child of the wolf cook

Oh, he's wearing a wolf he's wearing it. I am wearing a wolf with no mask, but I am wearing a wolf with no mask to Chicken back off of faster side over there.

Welcome eyelash everyone. That was part of our sermon this morning was eyelashes Yes. Yes. Yes, it was

It's the dude. I can't podcast. It's so much better than the wolf you were in season one.

That's a lot of coming Oh, well, not this year. This is Although it says 20 20 says wolves and there's only one

Form of the So we're starting off season to make it fun of me. It looks like it's going for this

No, that's a bad angle for it. I mean it had to be much taller Because we don't know where the wolf's trying to get nice that was good werewolf get it

Like that and last but not least guys we cannot forget Finnegan, what's up?

What's up Finnegan? Sporting our yeah, it's morning and improved apparel guys if you go to Witten Baptist Church swing on by Order yourself a point -taking

Podcast t -shirt short and long sleeve. They are all in black and it's the same symbol

That's your option. And if you don't like it, you don't get it. No, but people love them I mean Finnegan lost his head over it.

All right, and his pants he gets offended at that The pants know the head fitting in the head thing.

That's he's very insecure about he was so excited his pantaloons fell off Like we weren't gonna mention the fact that he didn't we did he did he pay for that shirt?

Well, yeah, it's Finnegan man, he didn't pay for his pants, but he did pay for sure who's gonna hire him He doesn't have fine.

Sorry. I almost said it He can't get hired he doesn't have a job he's too You know, it's unnatural position that's all he can do his arm goes up to here and his other

You know, it's his name's Don't look man named Michael Finnegan.

He had whiskers on his chin again the window. Yeah, that's the one don't look stop it Grow up.

All right, so Our topic today guys our topic today is abortion

Awesome topic. Can't wait to get into it You guys ready? Yeah, let's go.

We're ready. Okay guys, so let's talk about first and foremost Believe in defining our terms here.

So For that one person who's listening who says chaos abortion, right?

What's abortion? All right. All right abortion is the abortion is the terminating of a pregnancy by the

Ending of the life of the fetus of the child that is in the womb Okay So yeah

Purposeful the purpose little the intentional killing of the child in the womb to terminate the pregnancy if you consider it a child

Or a life right if you consider it life, right? So I was like very pro -life

Definition which is what I expect because I feel like we all would have that definition. So So let's could we

D. Yeah good Explain everybody. Guess what? I'll do it. Okay, everybody.

Guess what? It's now Someone's new to this.

Can you tell everyone who Hector is? So when we put on the hats, we are embodying the spirit of Hector Hector is the heckler if you will

He is the guy that stands outside of your house at three o 'clock the morning saying you're wrong And he throws me to sit down and stop speaking

Your truth because your truth is not true So we all have a hat and if ever anyone is wearing the hat that means they're giving the antithetical view on purpose

And of course, we will be mentioning medical means that means opposite. Nice Wow, dude.

Thanks, man I'm not surprised That's what it was he went

I don't like I don't like it.

All right, so Hector has a point to me yeah, and and we'll be we'll be announcing when we put on the hats, but yeah, so abortion the way

I would define abortion is the hmm it is the

Really wanted to I'm really wanting to get it super Hector II will then do it. I'm trying.

Hold on Let me think about the source is failing. It is the termination of a pregnancy

The end Intentional or unintentional Hector Because then you're saying a miscarriage.

Oh, no. No, no because termination is implied intention It's absolutely not but I will I disagree.

Hold on. I Disagree Termination is implied intention.

Okay, fine. Fine. I mean right now the Terminator didn't accidentally go after Sarah Connor Are you about to use

Arnold Schwarzenegger and you're gonna pull him in there? Absolutely, dude. He showed up for Sarah Connor and he said

I'm going to terminate you and first terminate and first If I were to go up to one of my people and say you're fired

Which I can't do but let's say that I could and I say you're fired I'm terminating you I didn't accidentally fire them

I intentionally fired. I mean, let me hear your argument on that real quick Wait a minute

Okay, right. No. Well, I'm gonna say this What if Because what ifs are what we do that's what it's about.

What if I'm prepared to take your point terminate? So I'm gonna terminate this pregnancy.

Okay, my the You have the mother's life and the baby's life or imbalance

Okay, if I terminate the life of the mother the baby lives if I terminate the life of the baby the mother lives

Okay using that line of logic That's a different that's not that's not willful that's a life like one of the two of them

Okay, we're gonna say this point. So you said I am going to terminate this

All right, right so that to me spells intention whether or not you're meaning like I am going to kill this other person

But say I'm gonna one of the other I'm gonna do it doesn't have to be evil. Just I'm just talking technical but I'm saying that So I did want to I talked to a lot of people that said they just like to listen

So I'll announce or you know, he is wearing. Hey, Andrew is wearing the Hector but the definition that was said before is the willful termination or the willful killing of a

Embryo, right? That was the pro -life, but I'm saying that abortion

Can me can be okay if the mother's life's in danger, so that's not a termination as much as it's a

Choosing which life to save got it Okay. Yeah, that's not at all of a point. I'm arguing.

I'm arguing for the the Hector definition the pro -choice definition is the termination of a pregnancy

That and that means willful. That's that's fine. We can we can settle on that. No problem

That's because that's what we're talking about. Anyway as a fellow Hector Don't whisper that again

All right continue I'm sorry so we have one Hector point about Let's go ahead and give mother.

Yeah, I think I think what might be beneficial is to help us

Distinguish between something. We don't do a good job distinguishing it if I may brother hunter. I Think that one area that Christians are really weakened is just writing a certain political party in this

Category instead of thinking critically in their own terms. Yeah Abortion for a

Christian should not to be a political issue. It is a Bible issue for a Christian Okay, and we'll get into all the what -ifs in a minute and I think we should by the way

I think we're doing a disservice if we didn't right, but I think all of us can agree on this if You are pro -life

Because that is a political party you support you're failing as a Christian, right? You should be pro -life forgetting a political sense because God is

And that we recognize that all human beings including Hector are created in the image of God and I think that's the key point and we can go into why but Just a couple quick examples, you know

The Holy Spirit came upon John the Baptist when he was still in his mother Elizabeth's womb, right?

Okay, David Has the most intimate telling about how God what knit him together in his mother's womb that he was conceived in sin

There's no doubt from a biblical perspective that life begins at conception that right from it for a Christian There's there's no doubt and if life begins at conception and there's a separation between human life and the rest of it

Yes, I know that we all love our dogs and our cats and not all of us But some people like dogs and cats and all that stuff.

That's fine but there's a separation between human life and the rest of God's creation and God's point is that human beings are creating his image thus have inherent value

And should be treated as such so just laying out the Christian point so we can move on to that the other points the

Christian Worldview should be not one of a political issue, but one of a Bible issue

What percentage you are taxed as a political issue who you vote for as a political issue immigration is a political issue

Abortion is a Bible issue Difference well abortion is going to call back to episode one or two or some

Moral and that's moral and ethical, right? Yeah, that's what it is This is an ethical issue right like should it be right should it be?

Okay? What are the arguments for I? think This is what's real crazy to me sorry is

I'm a I think of this way on like the gun stance like Second Amendment and stuff

I've never sat there and because I'm very pro -gun very pro Second Amendment I've never sat there and thought of the people who didn't like guns like boy

Hate those guys right those guys are the worst and they're evil I was like no because in my opinion a lot of those people say

Let's take away guns because I believe that will solve the problem of people being killed by guns

Right. I disagree with that. But the but you believe that they actually believe right?

It's not that they're trying to you know, not all of them trying to be jerks or anything It's just like hey, they really

I think that this will solve the problem. But when it comes to abortion That's what's always stifled me is that I can't really think like that because I'm just like What are you arguing for?

Yeah, I mean you're literally on the killing babies side of the team In that same regard this is where like and that we've got to quit marking lines in the sand and dying on hills that don't matter yeah, like Vaccine not vaccine stuff like that.

Like come on from it for a Christian perspective. Thank you Not be a hill you die on I mean there that can when you're not dying on the important ones, right?

Exactly. You speak louder about that than you do about the things that actually matter I am upset because there are no more

Ten Commandments in front of the court. Right, right, right Nativity scene does not include these because we don't pray to open up our school classes, right?

Yeah, I think We've gotten lulled to sleep in this regard to hunters point

I can I Can have a a godly Christian disagree with me on so many fronts

Yeah, I don't I don't care if they vote for the same person. I think sure here's but in this area if you call yourself a

Christian and are in support of the murder of children in the womb used to Used to and we still can

I'd now for all those people who say well then it's really an argument of war life begins Then let me tell you why that Encourages me.

Yeah, then we can have a conversation a hundred because okay Cuz if you truly don't believe life begins until say week 20 and bring lots of conversation

We can have the problem is there are Christians right now today that will say this. No, obviously life begins at conception

It's just not a life that matters Okay, a Daughter of a prominent politician in this country

Both her mother and her father or prominent politicians this family said this about ten years ago.

She said a reporter asked her Do you think it is unethical to oppose abortion? And she said not only is it unethical to oppose abortion.

It's un -christian to oppose abortion, dude Let that sink in for a minute so again, if it's an argument about Windows life again, that's a worthwhile argument that I think we should have but to those

Christians who admit No, it absolutely is. That's Another category of an even deeper problem.

I think I believe Man, I mean that's that's sad that saddens me.

Yeah So let's let's talk about it real quick. Sure. When does life begin? Let's go ahead and do that and then we're gonna go into your

Hector's point and then I've got a Hector point You've got a Hector point. I've got a Hector's just all over this episode guys

If Hector's your favorite character All right guys so life when does life begin

Formed you in your mother's womb. Okay. So now we've got the womb. Let's back it up from okay.

I'm outside of the womb Am I alive Me right here 24 years old sitting here on this podcast.

Oh, am I alive? Yes has life started. Yes. Okay. Yeah when my mom was pregnant with me if God formed me in the womb in my life

Yeah, okay. We're still backpedaling. Let's backpedal all the way. So when in that womb

Did life begin before the foundation of the world? Before the foundation of the world, but I guess he's asking in time.

When did that take place? Whenever you were conceived I would assume at conception is what you would say.

I would say that conception I would say that you were at least thought of and already figured out

Before everything even start before time even started, but that's that's the Romans Argument, I would assume.

Yeah, I Here's what I would say from a Christian vantage point you've got to do something with the sentence I was conceived in sin and that's important because David's speaking about a human being right and he's not

I mean a tree is not conceived in sin the point being is David makes a really good argument that life begins at conception because God wouldn't call a tree sinful

Right, that's the point and a tree is alive trees alive One common

Decent biological argument that could be made I won't even put a Hector hat on here because this is a thought -provoking by the way Christians It's okay to think critically and ask questions right make you a heretic even if it makes you a little uncomfortable, right?

They'll say okay Let's at least be consistent. Let's do heartbeat Okay, if we're going to use the little green line going flat to say someone's life is over Let's use that the same as someone's life began.

Okay. All right, even though I think biblically You're gonna have a hard time not saying conception. Let's go there the average heartbeat

Begins at about three weeks The average woman doesn't know she's pregnant till four to six weeks

The overwhelming Majority of intentional abortions Overwhelming are far after a heartbeat.

So if we're just gonna go based on biology, so let's say all right Let's remove the Bible from it, which

I always love how Christians fall for that trap They can keep their worldview, but you have to get rid of yours You have most women don't know that I've had, you know, my wife's had two children

Most women don't know they're pregnant until they're six weeks pregnant Five weeks that they're lucky we're talking about a heartbeat that's beginning when the child is smaller than your thumbnail

Okay, so so I think from a scientific biological argument. I don't know how you can get past a heartbeat now

Other Hector's will will or even genuine will say, all right, they'll say pain

When you can feel pain Which is at about as far as we can tell you can only use something that's 20 weeks in embryo

All right. Okay, the problem with that argument where it fails so much is if someone's numbed up on painkillers of a no longer human

They're no longer alive, right? Are we really using that as our guideline, right?

Which I think there's a very slippery slope that we could easily fall into if we do that around for sure

I mean, that's that's a horrible way to try to do then you have had the argument of What's it called assisted suicide

Yeah, yeah euthanasia It's like when so if if I can pick when

I determine when life starts I can pick and determine when I think life should Be over and if someone is in a vegetated state sure their brain waves are gone

They're never gonna come back. Okay. Yeah, I have the power of death. I can kill that person. I think

Yeah, exactly. And I think What's so amazing is the blatant inconsistency we have

I mean think about it still in most states Still in those states if you shoot a pregnant woman and they both die, what are you charged with?

Okay, right, but if you go to a doctor and pay government money Then you did a good thing, right what's amazing is not just an okay thing a good thing there are some states and if you don't believe me right now,

I Encourage you to pull out your little cell phone or get your Google fingers ready. They're probably on their cell phones watching this but okay

That works. Okay. Well, I watch on my laptop. Okay We're not all perfect. Okay. Thank you There are some states that are still trying to do something that was outlawed 20 years ago and bring back

Post birth abortions No, no, no,

I challenge the Christian and myself by the way No, most people find that appalling.

Is it less appalling three weeks earlier? No, or five weeks earlier.

In other words, it's not less appalling. It's okay. It's a little less shocking

Yeah, because you don't see right that that that's literally what it is It's the veil, you know, there's latency.

There's a reason that How do I say this? We all rebel in different ways but most of the time

There's still a level of shame that comes from a rebellion There are still certain buildings that don't have windows for a reason

Because we're ashamed of our rebellion. Yeah, okay What we're talking about now, so so when it's you know, there's a there's a documentary called the silent screen

Yeah, it's kind of tough to watch but it's probably should be watched When you can't hear it

It's the same reason why some people find it easier to kill a fly than to do a deer Right.

Okay It definitely is more impactful because it you know, it's funny as men

When I put my hand on my wife's stomach When Ava was second trimester, so I'm just gonna make five five months.

So 20 to 25 weeks and I put my hand and I felt

Ava kick against my hand I'm like That's an alien party.

Yeah, what is that thing? Whoa, like you can't convince me You could have every scientist in the world

I You would not be able to convince me that what

I felt that time was not alive We can call it whatever we want was not a lot We're not you know,

I talked to my wife about it. Like what does that feel like? She goes I Really can't describe it to you because some days it feels like In the early days you say in the earth like very early for a few weeks

It feels like a bunch of gas. All right, and then later on she goes It feels like a creatures inside me moving around all the time all the time and then we go to get ultrasound later on and you know, she's not turning to where we could see the

It if if you have not been blessed with going in an ultrasound the past five to ten years since the technologies advanced

Let me tell you something. It is so cool. It's cool. Anyway, she's just moving this little thing over Rachel's belly and I can see

Ava in there or Naomi and they can see through the skull and see See through her chest and see the heart moving.

I mean, this is crazy We're talking about she's the size of this little bottle and I'm seeing all this right?

Well, she's not turning over to where we can see her face At 20 weeks pregnant a child can start recognizing and memorizing voices outside the womb so in other words

She in other words she can recognize Voices that she hears all the time at 20 weeks pregnant outside the womb man like fathers

Preachers radio stuff like that. It's cool. It's cool. I said Ava and I Like Rachel is where you were at Yeah, and then the baby moved in her belly towards me towards what

I do when I just said And I'm just like, okay Let's call a spade a spade guys

Kid, I mean, let's at least call a spade a spade. Are you kidding me? You're you're not gonna be able to convince me

I'm unconvincible in this right? We have two groups of people when we talk about this, we're really three we have those that know it's wrong

But are afraid Okay, that's a very real are scared are

Don't know what else to do. We have people that's know what's wrong. There's a really a fool know what's wrong, but are in rebellion.

I Don't care It's more convenient yes, I do this we have people that think it's actually okay because they don't truly believe it's a life

Then we have people that think it's okay Because they've been told it's not a life that matters.

They've been duped. They've been told it's just not a life that matters So it's you got to know which group you're speaking to when you talk about these things

But from the Christian perspective you have to accept That God values all life which would also include the doctor who performed that abortion

It would include the mother and include the father who allowed the God values all life including the child's right

So let's talk about it's not a life that matters real quick Oh All right pastor

Josiah has the Hector hat on I have the Hector head on please everyone understand I have the Hector head on there we go.

Okay say my Bob the Builder Hector hat No You put it on sideways

All right, we got to get Hector beanies or something, all right, all right get a patch it's not a life that matters, okay fun

Hector head on I accept that is a life and that God would probably not want me to kill this child

However, the Bible also says to raise your children up in the nurture and the admonition of the Lord I would not be able to provide this child with a loving godly life

It's a one -parent household, there's no one else I don't have the money to do it. I'd have to put them up for Adoption.

Anyway, I can't take care of this child. I'm not a state to do it. I am too young. I am too

Mentally distressed. I have too much going on. I have too many issues I would not be able to raise this child up as God would have it.

So I'm gonna fail either way I'm gonna fail either way and I'm gonna pull a lot of people's

Other people's lives in the dirt with me if I go through this pregnancy So what am

I supposed to do when it God rather me though? He probably would not prefer to just get rid of this child

Man, that's really hard for me to wear this To get rid of this child so that I don't cause despair and all these other areas as well

Well First question would be has there ever been that was really hard for me to say by the way

Okay, Oh Hector. Yeah, has there ever been an accidental pregnancy and I'll ask that to the table an

Accidental pregnancy my Hector head is off now. Yeah, the Hector hat is off. I don't

I don't I don't believe in fate I don't believe in well, I'm sorry. I don't believe in coincidences.

I don't believe in accidents. Everything has a purpose Everything has a everything has been planned out. So purposed by whom or by what purpose by God for God's glory

Okay, so it's your belief that things that happen everything that happened is purposed by God. Yes Yeah, I'm into by God.

Uh -huh, which is Whoa, I'm a turn.

I'm a deterministic. Wait, are you really? Mm -hmm Hold on. Hold on. I'm not kidding.

We're no disrespect. I just I didn't know that. Mm -hmm. Yeah, you're legit a determinist

Oh I think it to what extent before we move on. I'm sorry to what extent

I think God has a plan for every single thing That's ever happened. Okay, but does he? Did he do things?

He works everything out for his glory regardless of what it looks like for us Yeah, okay, so I'm bored with that yeah so far so am

I It's not necessarily a determinist stance though Well, I think what is beneficial and he even took it back when he said it

I think that's what's so Purposeful because a lot of times we get into and we probably should do an episode on it by the way.

Sure We have it scheduled free will the term Okay I think a key point that would settle a lot of confusion in this area just to make it apply here is it's not fate

It's right. It is Providential in other words, you know, no, that's why I'm so glad that you said that at the end

There's a difference between saying it's fated and It's Providence because one has a purpose one does not so an atheistic worldview where we're all just Molecules in motion.

We're all just protoplasms and just doing whatever the Chemical reactions in our brain brain have destined us to you.

That's fate. That's purposeless. There's no purpose in that. That's that's that is Atheistic deterministic fate.

Yeah, what Andrew was describing is Providence where there is a grand designer and purpose behind it and that's a world of difference, but yeah, we're probably point being point being is in that sense, of course, there's not an accidental pregnancy in that sense because Evil I plan for good.

Yeah, exactly I think yeah, and I think the real question is what I'm saying here and and The reason

I ask is because some Christians will go to the point of saying we don't use condoms we don't use this

We don't believe in vasectomies. We don't believe in that because if There is a pregnancy then it was ordained by God hand -delivered by God and all that And so then there are some that just say, okay, we won't have any outside surgeries

But we can use protection or whatever like that. So it's just the question to the table when it comes to what

Hector brought up is About being able to provide a good life and all that stuff is is it a possibility that somebody gets pregnant outside of God's will?

outside of his will No, I don't think so. I Think that God will provide no matter what regardless of the circumstances you may fall yours find yourself in if you are if you are a single parent who

That's any circumstances you get pregnant under God will provide a way for you

Okay Yeah, I would say that in regards to the first point about well, why even

Do X Y or Z if God has said this will happen all that stuff Well, that's the same thing to the whole

Bible, you know He said I'm gonna make sure Nehemiah that you build the wall by the way train your guys and carry swords

In other words, he uses means to bring it about he didn't just he mean has means to bring it about the same as he

Told the disciples I'll be with you wherever you go, by the way Go sell your coat and buy a sword by the way, you know eat this, you know all that stuff so in other words that doesn't get rid of our

Responsibility and what we're supposed to do but to your other point. I Would say you were saying something about Well, what did you say after the accidental pregnancy thing

I Shoot Remember I was talking about a is it possible to be pregnant outside of God saying you're gonna have a child

Certainly possibly pregnant outside of what he desired for your life But if you mean outside of his wills and his his control what he has

Purposed or allowed to take place. No, of course not, but if you mean Outside of what he's permitted.

Yeah, of course this goes into that other episode, but God has Permitted that he doesn't always get that which he wants.

He always get what he wills, but he doesn't always get what he wants in other words He made a law

Knowing that it would be broken. Yeah, right. So so in that and he didn't want it to be You know, it's like the old past.

I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked That doesn't mean he doesn't kill the wicked right means he takes no pleasure in it.

He's not happy about it, right? So in that sense when it comes to the the pregnancy

I think one key point that we should make and I'm about to say something so get ready to clutch your pearls So this the hogs don't step on yeah, cuz

I guarantee you someone's not gonna let me finish this thought process is you ready me No, no.

No, someone okay being pregnant outside of wedlock is not sinful but Listen to how

I said that being Pregnant outside of wedlock is not sinful Now the act that caused that pregnancy for certainly was for both people involved right but the act of being pregnant in other words

Someone can fully repent of that make it right all that stuff right and still be pregnant

Outside of wedlock in other words, we don't need to look at the state of being pregnant as sinful, right?

Oh Premarital sex is sinful premarital adultery sex child right from that is so in other words in other words the heart could be for a repentant man or woman

Changed and then the woman is still pregnant as a result of the sinful actions from four months ago

Does that one follow me on that? So that's important for us as Christians to keep in mind is that the consequences and results of sin can remain far after their penance for him for it has already happened and that's true in all of our lives the

The results of that sin are still going to take place even after that doesn't necessarily mean the sinful state is still there and the reason that's important is because Anyone listening here now?

That and I'm by the way men you are not less responsible in this scenario that has had an abortion

You are no more a sinner than I am or hunter as or Andrew is Now we're still gonna call a spade a spade by the way, right?

Okay, but you're no more sinful than anyone else. You are a sinner in need of a Savior just like the rest of us so I make that distinction and I knew

I'd get that look because because it it's just the thought of Right, you may or may not be in a continual state of sin for the next nine and a half months

But you don't have to be just because the result of it is still there That's all

I was getting at. Yeah, so our shot. All right, so Hold on. Hold on. We gotta we gotta answer

Hector we got to get down to What was said is?

God said to raise them up Proper right right in the Lord's love, right?

And so he says if I'm not in that position to do that Why is it that I wouldn't be able to terminate the pregnancy because I would be having it in disobedience

Is an amazing little euphemism so used to make it sound better right terminate the pregnancy instead of kill the baby

I'm sitting here like thinking everything through to try and be as accurate as I can What was asked from that perspective

So the reason I brought up the question Is it possible to be pregnant by accident?

by outside of God saying This is a life. I knew that baby before it ever entered the freaking egg.

I Knew that baby before the sex was ever had right like I knew its name

I knew how many hairs would be on its head should it live I knew this that you know The second that sperm hit the egg

I started forming it in its womb Wow like Right then and right there. So if I believe that Then I'm hard -pressed to believe that God would say

It's totally chill if you want to kill this that I put in there and that I formed and that I knew and that I did all that because you you just don't have the means and Also when it comes to you not having the means with me being the great provider

You know, you know I'm saying like if you actually are trying and you honestly had the opinion

I want to raise this child up in the love and admonition of the

Lord the way the Bible tells me to and Then you but you're going to ignore the passage when it says look at the lilies of the field and how it's coded

Look at even the sparrow right like you of little faith. I Look first to the kingdom look first to the kingdom of God and all these things will be added on to you like if you want to ignore that part and just look at this part that you're feeling like I'm I'm not sure

I can live up to that. It's not about you living up to it. It's about God living up to it Good word.

Yeah, and then another thing to think about is Why would

God then condemn it or why would then God condone a sin word?

Oh because it's I'm a special case, right? So you say oh, well, this was Okay, I'll say it.

I was raped and now I have and now I'm a child and I'm not making light of that, right?

I'm not making fun of that. I'm not saying it negative. Well, I mean, obviously that's negative

We don't definitely do not want that. That's awful and terrible and God condemned it I know a lot of people like well,

God never say they ain't here. He did actually it was one of the capital punishments There were 16 laws in Leviticus and Exodus that where you're supposed to be put to death for And now the

American justice system should take another look at the harsher punishments for rape because God sure did but anyway, yeah so Someone is raped they have a child and they make all the same they say all right the father's not in the picture

All this everything you just said I'm going to terminate the pregnancy because I can't provide for this child

Okay, so it was conceived by a terrible evil act a sinful act

Why would God then go? All right. Well now you can kill it And those sins are gonna cancel out.

I'm gonna I'm gonna turn my head and You go ahead and you kill that child and no one's gonna be the wiser

I won't care when you come to me for judgment. I'm gonna say don't worry about that one

Because you were you were you raped and I've heard I've heard this in my own personal life I've heard when

I look at that child, I'm going to be Uncomfortable. I'm going to be disgusted.

I'm going because I'll see him in them As like I don't care about your opinion of your child

That's that is that that that is the yes That would be terrible to see that to see that victim to be the victim every time you see that child

But that's a child that's another life. All right, right and the big argument is okay because here's my big argument

Because they say pro -choice, right? They make a really nice term for their position pro -choice

Which is always thought was funny because they never tried to soften the word abortion They never tried to make that sound nicer, but they just made their stance pro -choice nicer

And they're about pro -choice choose whether or not to go through with the pregnancy. I was like, okay I'm also pro -choice

But the choice is whether or not to have unprotected sex with somebody you don't want to have a baby with right, right?

That's the choice not whether or not to kill it afterwards So if we want to talk about choice, I'm pro -choice, but what it's talked about in the instance of rape

Well, shoot they say I don't have a choice I didn't have no dang choice in that so now what now

Where do we go? Because I that was forced upon me. I didn't want it. I didn't do this didn't do that or whatever

So what happens now? Yeah, that's it's a trap Christians are so gullible for falling into this crap because you'll take something guys

Listen, we as we as people let y 'all listen to me for a minute have got to learn how to think critically you've got to Okay, I'll use just a few examples

Just because something is called the Patriot Act does not make it patriotic Just because something is called the

Affordable Care Act does not make it affordable or say that anyone cares Just because something's called Operation Warp American Rescue Plan and just because it's all in Cares Act Doesn't mean anything in name only grape nuts are not grapes or nuts koala bears are not bears

I mean, we've been great. Don't argue with me on that. No, I wouldn't okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

Say that word again The marsupial. Thank you. Okay, they're rats Well, one is it now get ready get ready for what

I'm not saying this No one is against planned parenthood

Right. In other words who's against parenthood being planned? Everybody should in name.

That's great. Sure pro -choice. Oh, I'm of course women should have a right to choose

They're creating the image of God In other words we fall for the trap of because something is wrapped up in really good

Wrapping rhetoric and everything behind it must be true And by the way, if you still think there's a political issue it happens in both political parties

But again, this is not a political issue. It's a Bible issue the the point is Think critically for a moment.

I mean In one sense. I am a witness of Jehovah. I Believe in a

Catholic Universal Church, right? You see my point in name

Yeah But think critically about what those names mean what's behind them and you'll be all the wiser

For when you actually have to come down to make ethical decisions Yeah That's my soapbox

That's your soapbox. I mean, yeah, it's important and you think about consequences to actions.

Should I go into a kitchen and I Pull out peanut butter. Mm -hmm.

I open the refrigerator. I pull out jelly. Yeah, right You see where this is going. Your mouth is watering pull out just a little paper towel a

Knife paper towel. Yeah, me too. Yeah Yeah because well one when you put on the peanut butter wipe off the knife put it in the jelly

Because just because you eat peanut butter and jelly doesn't mean everybody want peanut butter with their jail With their jelly when they go to put it on their sausage or their biscuit

Okay, does that not make sense to you? No, not typically use a spoon for the jelly and a knife for the peanut butter, but I'm good either way, right?

It's hey, let's take a break. How are you? Let's take a break real quick from our That just real quick.

Does everyone agree? peanut butter on one slice jelly on the other made them not Correct butter on one piece of bread jelly on top of that peanut butter plain piece of bread on top

I don't like that at all No peanut butter on both pieces and then you put jelly on then you have double the peanut butter

Kiss it. Why don't you just put a thicker layer on the first? Are you one of those people that puts the sock and the shoe on the left foot and then the sock and the shoe on The right instead of double sock double shoes.

Can I be honest? I'm not consistent with that. Really? I'll do it just depends All right. All right.

I'm gonna ask it toilet paper Forward this forward.

All right, if you do it back I have an issue with you. It's forward. It's not I am no

I'm hostile about this. It has to be forward so that your daughter doesn't come in and waste all of it by pulling it 100 % that's the thing.

It's about money Now let's just talk about this the basic principle

You have to reach farther if the toilet paper is done last time on the back

You have to reach under and past if you have an old home As far as I can all toilet paper rolls are now double rolls

Like literally every toilet paper roll is a double roll, which means none of them are actually double rolls It's right thick when you first put it on and it might get stuck and you have to like use seven layers of it

I know y 'all know what I'm talking about. You can look at me all you want I think that you read judgment and eyes that were non -judgmental because you were insecure about the point you're making

The judgmental eyes were our camera crew Okay for sure that probably was

Visual team get what am I gonna call them the camera people the camera people the a team

Anyway, don't give yourself that much Anyways, you have your peanut butter you have your jelly you get your knife you spread your peanut butter

Clean it spread your jelly Put those together and now you have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and you say

What the heck I do not want a peanut butter and jelly sandwich I'm just gonna throw it away.

Okay one. I would punch you. You don't throw away perfectly good food No, you don't and you don't throw away a perfectly good life.

Hey, I See the point you're making you see the point I'm making is that you do this process

That has a very obvious Conclusion if you're not right like that with it like sure sure and it's it is both for in the

Christian Standpoint it is not just about recreate recreate Recreation I was thinking recreation and then recreation right recreation wouldn't right now

It's not just about making children, right? I a hundred percent agree with that But no, it's intimacy of a man and a woman

I say, hey, hey, babe. I want to have a kid That's your process.

Just like if hey, I want to make a sandwich. That's your process So when it comes time for that sandwich to be on your plate and you're gonna get upset

Like you literally just made it Like But but that's that's what

I'm saying it's like you can't be surprised and upset at the consequence of a very basic Natural instinctual

Action like oh

Dang, my drinks flow over because I pushed it. It's just what happens When you make an action there is a consequence whether that consequence is positive or negative

It's up to you. But just you can't just say I no longer want this consequence because I'm not a fan of Responsibility or accountability.

So I'm going to do the action without receiving the consequence because I am special That doesn't make sense.

Like who gave you that authority the government of the United States well, the government of the United States is

Here today and gone tomorrow It's so amazing We can

What you what you just said there we can read Old Testament accounts of child sacrifice

Yeah, Molech, and they were far less effective Yeah, killing their children than we are.

Oh my gosh. We're approaching just in the United States. Let's forget about China Let's forget about India.

Let's forget about England's forget about France just in the United States in 50 years 50 years.

We're at 65 million children. Mm -hmm That is more people than most countries have citizens

And that's how many people we're talking about now that means 65 million and it's incredible you talk about consequences have actions

You know, we always say God bless America can we really ask God to bless a nation that Murders yeah most

So and you know when brother Jeff says it's time for us to quit saying God bless America and start blessing God in other words

Speaking a good word of God praising God It's amazing though How many people in the church are silent about that Like if there is there if you want something to get upset about and I'm not talking about being rude or crude, right?

to Especially women they're going through that we've helped many people in those scenarios

We had one lady who had had an abortion preach here before but if you can't see that as a worthwhile cause and you're more upset about a vaccine or Nativity scene, you you have your priorities just Jack you won't talk about a consequence and then you sit and wonder like what does

God allow in this country to come to you? Are you kidding me? Like are you serious

It's exactly that like you touch the fire and expect not to be burned right now. That's what's happening.

And then you blame Do you blame the one who started the fire? And of course, it's not just put your hand there and it's not just abortion

But this is a a clear Example wake up. What are we doing? I noticed that Hector has joined the table in the form of a two white men

Who obviously have never had a kid never been in a situation like this you have beards goodness

I don't know because that's it That's a thing, okay

Is you're speaking of your truth your truth is your whole

Bible thing I don't believe that my truth is relative to me. So thus

Everything you're saying Doesn't apply to me because I don't share your same value.

Oh, no. No keep that Hector head on Yeah using charcoal or propane to grill him, you know pure burning

Yeah, I sell propane They better comment on this video that they like that They're gonna comment some stuff

All right. Go ahead. I'm ready. Okay, you want him first or me? It seems like you were excited, but okay,

I can I chime in me personally. No, this is Hector. Okay. Okay, so Hector so Andrew Is what you just said true

It to me, yes, it is true, okay, but truth is relative Are you sure about that?

Yes, absolutely sure It's an absolute truth that truth is relative to the person well, you know what what's what's funny is

It's an absolute truth I wanted to laugh at him for playing along with what you're doing because he knew but then

I thought what other answer is there Spoken to somebody who believed in relative truth that have ever made it past that point

No, I'm not saying that that person doesn't exist and I will be impressed you can come on this show. Absolutely because I'll be impressed but Say I believe in relative truth man.

Like oh, is that right? Is that true? Yeah. Yeah I had a perfect setup one time like I'm terrible at baseball

But I had a slow pitch and I hit a home run on this one It's like the only one I'll ever actually hit cuz I'm terrible at baseball

Senior year. Yeah, same as touchdown. Okay. He's our actor. You're a nerd to Hector like Andrew.

No, that was me High school, I'll never forget I Said it's an absolute fact and then

I can still see him. His name is Philip. He's sitting off to my left. He goes There are no absolutes and I looked at him and I'm never gonna be this smooth again, right

I said Are you absolutely sure and he said absolutely and he didn't get it

And he didn't get it. I Find him and ask him does he still not get it?

Okay my point being is it when people say there are no absolutes or truth is relative is the statement truth is relative relative or Is that true?

Now? There are some thinkers who will say there are no such things as absolutes And that is their philosophy and they have these

Arguments, but tell you the truth, man One I've never I've never in all my study and all my time are just being interested in philosophy

Have I ever agreed with the philosophy that didn't acknowledge absolute truth, right? But then also there are some people who just say it

Because they've heard it and they do not want to pick a side like it.

They think it makes them neutral Correct when it does not you have picked the side of incorrect reality is one of the biggest lot.

This is Andrew talking I think Neutrality is one of the biggest lies. Yeah. Oh for sure. It can't be there's very little to really

I don't think there's very little you can be neutral on it and I understand there's gray areas

Yeah, okay, we can understand gray areas, but in the fact of the matter most sides peanut butter and jelly or tuna fish

Well, I like tuna fish, okay, what about peanut butter and jelly? Well like that too, but I like tuna fish better Okay, so you have a choice of the things worth debating about there is a

There is a left and right. Yeah, this is like which is the best Batman obviously like those things. I'm just kidding

Let's not start. Oh boy. That would be a quick conversation. This is a Discussion of come on and this it really is a philosophical question

Say I don't care either way Okay, but you did just pick a side by saying that like if your philosophy is

I don't care about philosophy That is a philosophy and you are a philosopher and the same way of saying

I remember this side this side I don't care. Well, you have now made a third side. That is more

Self -centric, it's not selfish, but it's the argument a professor of mine made at College He goes if you're against abortion don't have an abortion but don't tell anyone else not to so but then but then

I was just like So if I'm against rape, am I allowed to? Not tell to tell other people not to rape in other words, right?

In other words, I have a right to stand up if I think something is wrong And by the way, so do you because you think?

That you can stand there in front of us and tell us not to say yes You think most Like we agree on so many issues.

We think that racism is wrong and we should stand up and say it's wrong We think that rape is wrong. We should stand up and say it's wrong

So don't come to me and say if you're not if you're not for abortion don't have an abortion Then but a lot of people do it No It's the same as other things if I think it is right or wrong and it affects somebody else which all three of those scenarios

Do then we have an obligation to stand he who knows what is right and chooses not to do it to him

It is sin. I mean goodness gracious for 19 Can you drop that mic?

But no, that's a I know that could physically don't drop it Yeah, no, that's that's what

I share with most people who ever asked me for advice I say there you go That's what I live by. Boom. Do you know what it's right?

Okay, then Next not to not to get off of No You're doing a bad job with Hector man, dude, you told me to keep it on Yeah, but we grilled it.

Oh, it's done. Oh praise the Lord. Okay No, I I have to now

I have to go because you've mentioned it twice on this episode Vaccines the argument you just made is what

I've heard a lot of people say we're not about to talk about those right now No chance But no,

I'd say say your point say my point and then take your point But the argument you just made where the professor said you can have it or I don't think that Argument is what is used now for vaccine mandates

My choice my body. No Don't tell me I have to get it.

You can get it all day long, but don't tell me I have to get it Yeah, that's a faulty argument because one kills another human being that's inside of the other has to do with your health

Okay, I'm just I know you what you were doing. Yeah, I Wanted that to be out there and there's just so much to say about what both of you just said right there

Let it go I said there's so there's so much good conversation

Yeah, you still have a Hector don't you or do we already cover you well actually He did steal my Hector, even though I did point it out before the episode started what it was gonna be

And you sure did in the scenario of rape That was yours.

That was that was mine. You said no, you said that was his No, he said that his is why should

I have to listen to you? Because I'm not a Christian Yeah, I said mine was in the scenario of rape and you brought both of them up.

Well, I'm sorry Why don't you you know, I don't know. Why don't you continue? Yeah, just think of something else

Hector Shoot shoot, man There's a plethora of arguments against it, so I mean well bring one up You would put me on the spot like that Because now

I'm on this spot. All right, and my my feelings are what's another well Your facts don't care about your feelings

That was copyrighted for sure. Yeah, I've kind of got one. Okay. Well, no, that's not true

Kind of got one or not true that you do have one. Well, it's not really a

Hector point in other words It doesn't have to be a head and that X point So then if Christians, okay, they say all right, so if I accept the biblical stance

That life begins at conception What do we do? And I think the Bible consistently teaches from Old Testament to New Testament That the taking of innocent life is wrong now

Some one semester theologians gonna say there's no such innocent people. Yes in the judgment of God understood

But in the law of man, there is such a thing as innocent not innocent. Okay Taking an innocent life is contrary to the law of God.

Okay. Yeah, the only exception That genuine

Christians have ever made to that in church history would be life of a mother That's the only exception be in other words to save another life.

You kill a life, right? Now we can talk about that if we want to the problem With that is it ends up being a distraction from the larger issue because we're talking about Point zero zero zero zero 1 % right or some something goofy like that percentage of abortions that what we're talking about and that's not the the main issue

I would say in that scenario We're not in that scenario. We're talking about in a truly save this life or save this life scenario but Aside from that,

I think it'd be hard -pressed for a consistent Christian To make any other case.

I think it'd be hard -pressed But again, I think what we need to emphasize is this it is

Not an act and we really probably don't do a good enough job of this it is not an unsavable or Unredeemable sin, it's just the same as the rest of us we're just calling a spade a spade, but it's literally the same as the rest of us as our

Gossiping tongues or lustful eyes is our hating somebody our hate our lying lips, you know, so on and so forth

It's the same thing and there is redemption and forgiveness and that just like there is anything else Yeah, and I think that's an incredible point because I've had

Bible says you've been told that Murder is wrong But I tell you that if you even hate another brother in your heart, then you've murdered them and you've killed them

Yeah, bro I've hated I've not just strongly disliked.

I have not been on it. Not a fan of I have hated like actively Hated I have killed somebody

Same way. That's what I'm saying. Like we just have to argue the fact that yes, it is a sin

Yes, it is a sin and here's here's something else man Because it can be seen as super heartless and dang if I wasn't

Just so sure I'd say like yeah, dude biblical stance is super heartless on this.

Here it is a lot of people will say back to that point of Man, I don't want to look at my abuser in the eyes of my child

Like that sucks that's hard because I did not want a baby I was I was planning on this job

I was in college. I was doing this. I you know, I didn't even have a boyfriend I or whatever and then you were raped and you got pregnant with that abuser's child and I Hunter would look you in the eyes and say you have no right to abort that child

You have no authority That you can use on in heaven or on earth to kill somebody else and that's hard It's like, uh

Right, but I didn't ask her I didn't do this. I just I know that sucks. I Know that there are gonna be issues, but here's something that uh, your brother taught me man

That he said and it's never left me. He said Say that you are

I am paraphrasing and making my own story out of this because I don't remember how he said it I remembered the message

Say that you are 16 And you have a car and now your chore is to go do the grocery shopping so you need to take inventory of what we are running low on and When it comes time to go to the store you go up and ask for the amount of money that you'll need for the items

That you buy Right, so you decipher that in one week you will need to go to the store and grab milk bread cereal, whatever one week

From now, that's when you'll have to do it Would your father and your mother or your mother give you the money for that right then?

Or they give you the money for it when you go to the store When you go to the store, right? So in the same way, when does

God give you your peace and when does God give you your faith when you need it or? Weeks and months and months before when you need it, so that's why

I'm saying it's like yeah, man That's hard But there's a reason we call it the peace of God that surpasses all understanding there's a reason we say

God is the provider and That God gives us the desire to serve him. That's Philippians 2

God grants us In Ephesians, it says the gift of God faith that God gives us faith.

He grants us faith, right? So when we say yeah, man, this is gonna be hard.

I'm gonna have to deal with this I'm gonna have to deal with this like heck. Yeah, you are you are gonna deal with it, but God is the provider

God will close you He will make sure that you are taken care of and he will because he is a personal

God who cares He will give you peace and joy and he is able to grant you love

And that's what's crazy And I think of Hebrews 4 15 for we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses

But one who has tried in every way that we are and yet is without sin. Yeah, right

This is a personal God a God who understands a God who cares about those little things

But and that's not even a little thing, but you know what? I mean more on the grander scope of you know

Providing and raising a child just those little moments of when I when you see He has the nose of the guy who did that Like he looks like that and it that hurt or that fear or that pain or whatever do you have faith in God or do you not and Unfortunately, that's super cold and that's super like coming from a dude who will never be pregnant ever

And we'll never go through that. I know it sounds that way but in reality Do you have faith that God can provide peace?

Beyond your current understanding. Hmm. And if you do then what right have you to say that is too much for me?

therefore and unfortunately, that is Convenience.

I'm going to kill this kid because I cannot handle that shoot. I couldn't handle that Good thing that I have faith that God will provide

Right, yeah Well said man, yeah, thank you That's good well on that note

Guys great podcast Have any questions have anything you liked have anything you didn't like have anything do you want us to cover that?

We did not cover Comment on our video below on YouTube You can also find us on Instagram listen point taken shoot us a

DM hit us in the comments You can email us any types of questions or feedback right here.

Listen point taken at gmail .com Be sure and let us know what you think be sure and let us know any topics you want us to discuss or about this

Certain position anything we said or didn't say that you wanted us to say or didn't like that we said