Season 2 Episode 1 - Abortion

Right.

Lucy.

Yeah, okay.

Guys welcome back to the point taken.

Podcast this is the podcast where we make and take spiritual and biblical questions and

chat it up.

My name is Hunter.

I'm the host of this podcast.

Love to do it.

Great.

I don't I heard you whispering and I wish that you just wouldn't.

Know I understand one time.

We've already done it a couple times just one time where we don't know.

We haven't done it where we don't but one time where we don't and then the people.

Beginning of the new season they may not know What are we talking about.

To my left as always Pastor Josiah Shipley now the question for

pastor.

Sia already is are you happy to be here, dude?

I'm very happy to be here.

Welcome shoulder.

Everybody.

All right, there it is instead of welcome.

There's nothing I can do at this point.

Just pick a different.

To my right here is Andrew built by God child of the

wolf cook.

Oh.

He's wearing.

I am wearing a wolf with no mask, but I am wearing a wolf with no mask to

Chicken back off of faster side over there.

Welcome eyelash everyone.

That was part of our sermon this morning was eyelashes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, it was.

It's the dude.

I can't podcast that is so much better than the wolf you were in season one.

That's a lot better coming.

Oh, well, not this year.

This is.

Although it says 2020 says wolves and there's only one.

Form of the.

So we're starting off season to make it fun of me.

No, that's a bad angle for it, I mean it had to be a much taller wolf.

Because we don't know where the wolf's trying to get nice.

That was good where wolf get it.

Liked that and last but not least guys, we cannot forget Finnegan, what's up?

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I mean Finnegan lost his head over it.

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He gets offended at that.

The pants no the head thing again the head thing.

That's he's very insecure about he was so excited his pants lilies fell off.

Like we weren't gonna mention the fact that he didn't.

We did he did he pay for that shirt?

Well, yeah, it's Finnegan man, he didn't pay for his pants, but he did pay for sure who's gonna hire him.

He doesn't have all right.

I'm sorry.

I almost said it.

He can't get hired.

He doesn't have a job.

He's too.

You know, he's Unnatural position.

That's all he can do.

His arm goes up to here and his other arm goes.

You know, it's his name's Finnegan, I don't know.

Don't look man named Michael Finnegan.

He had whiskers on his chin again the window.

Yeah, that's the one don't look stop it.

Grow up.

All right, so.

Our topic today guys our topic today is abortion.

Awesome topic can't wait to get into it.

You guys ready?

Yeah, I'm ready.

Let's go.

We're ready.

Okay guys, so let's talk about first and foremost Believe in defining our terms

here.

So For that one person who's listening who says chaos abortion, right?

What's abortion?

All right.

All right.

Abortion is the abortion is the terminating of a pregnancy

by the Ending of the life of the fetus of the child that is in the womb.

Okay.

So yeah.

Purposeful the purpose little the intentional killing of the child in the womb to terminate the pregnancy

if you consider it a child.

Or a life.

Right if you consider it life, right?

So I was like very pro -life.

Definition which is what I expect because I feel like we all would have that definition.

So.

So let's could we the.

Yeah good.

Explain everybody.

Guess what?

I'll do it.

Okay, everybody.

Guess what?

It's now.

Someone's new to this.

Can you tell everyone who Hector is?

So when we put on the hats, we are embodying the spirit of Hector.

Hector is the heckler if you will.

He is the guy that stands outside of your house at 3 o 'clock the morning saying you're wrong.

And he throws me to sit down and stop speaking.

Your truth because your truth is not true.

So we all have a hat and if ever anyone is wearing the hat that means they're giving the antithetical view on purpose.

And of course, we will be mentioning medical means that means opposite.

Nice.

Wow, dude.

Thanks, man I'm not surprised.

That's what it was he went.

I don't like I don't like it.

All right, so Hector has a point to me.

Yeah, and and we'll be we'll be announcing when we put on the hats, but yeah, so

abortion the way I would define abortion is the hmm

it is the.

Really wonder I'm really wanting to get it super.

Hector II will then do it.

I'm trying.

Hold on.

Let me think about the source is failing.

It is the termination of a pregnancy.

The end.

Intentional or unintentional Hector.

Because then you're saying a miscarriage.

Oh, no.

No, no, because termination is implied intention.

It's absolutely not but I will I disagree.

Hold on.

I Disagree.

Termination is implied intention.

Okay, fine.

Fine.

I mean right now the Terminator didn't accidentally go after Sarah Conner.

Are you about to use Arnold Schwarzenegger and you're gonna pull him in there?

Absolutely, dude.

He showed up for Sarah Connor and he said I'm going to terminate you and first terminate and first.

If I were to go up to one of my people and say you're fired.

Which I can't do but let's say that I could and I say you're fired.

I'm terminating you.

I didn't accidentally fire them I intentionally fired.

I mean, let me hear your argument on that real quick.

Wait a minute.

Okay, right.

No.

Well, I'm gonna say this.

What if.

Because what ifs are what we do that's what it's about.

What if I'm prepared to take your point terminate?

So I'm gonna terminate this pregnancy.

Okay, my the.

You have the mother's life and the baby's life or imbalance.

Okay, if I terminate the life of the mother the baby lives if I terminate the life of the baby the mother

lives.

Okay using that line of logic.

That's a different that's not that's not willful that's a life like one of the two of them.

Okay, we're gonna say this point.

So you said I am going to terminate this.

All right, right so that to me spells intention whether or not you're meaning like I am going to kill

this other person.

But say I'm gonna one of the other I'm gonna do it doesn't have to be evil.

Just I'm just talking technical but I'm saying that.

So I did want to.

I talked to a lot of people that said they just like to listen.

So I'll announce or you know, he is wearing.

Hey, Andrew is wearing the Hector.

I'm like, okay, but.

The definition that was said before is the willful termination or the willful killing of a Embryo,

right?

That was the pro -life, but I'm saying that abortion

Can me can be okay if the mother's life's in danger, so that's not a termination as

much as it's a Choosing which life to save got it.

Okay.

Yeah, that's not at all of a point.

I'm arguing.

I'm arguing for the the Hector definition.

The pro -choice definition is the termination of a pregnancy.

That and that means willful.

That's that's fun.

We can we can settle on that.

No problem.

That's because that's what we're talking about.

Anyway as a fellow Hector

Don't whisper that again.

I Think that's gonna be my new thing.

All right continue.

I'm sorry.

All right, so we have one Hector point about.

Let's go ahead and get into mother.

Yeah, I think I think what might be beneficial is to help us

Distinguish between something.

We don't do a good job distinguishing it if I may brother hunter.

I Think that one area the Christians are really weakened is just writing a certain

political party in this Category instead of thinking critically in their own terms.

Yeah.

Abortion for a Christian should not to be a political issue.

It is a Bible issue for a Christian.

Okay, and we'll get into all the what -ifs in a minute and I think we should by the way I think we're doing a disservice if we didn't right, but I think all of us

can agree on this if You are pro

-life.

Because that is a political party you support you're failing as a Christian.

You should be pro -life forgetting a political sense because God is.

And that we recognize that all human beings including Hector are created in the image of God and I think that's

the key point and we can go into why but Just a couple quick examples,

you know.

The Holy Spirit came upon John the Baptist when he was still in his mother Elizabeth's womb, right?

Okay, David Has the most intimate telling about how God what knit him

together in his mother's womb that he was conceived in sin.

There's no doubt from a biblical perspective that life begins at conception that right from it for a Christian.

There's there's no doubt and if life begins at a conception and there's a separation between human life

and the rest of it.

Yes, I know that we all love our dogs and our cats and not all of us.

But some people like dogs and cats and all that stuff.

That's fine.

But there's a separation between human life and the rest of God's creation and God's point is that human beings are created

in his image.

Thus have inherent value.

And should be treated as such so just laying out the Christian point so we can move on to that the other points the

Christian Worldview should be not one of a political issue, but one of a Bible issue.

What percentage you are taxed as a political issue who you vote for as a political issue?

Immigration is a political issue abortion is a Bible issue.

Well abortion is going to call back to episode one or two or some.

Moral and that's moral and ethical, right?

Yeah, that's what it is.

This is an ethical issue right.

Like should it be right.

Should it be?

Okay?

What are the arguments for?

I think This is what's real crazy to me.

Sorry, is I'm a I think of this way on like the gun stance

like Second Amendment and stuff I've never sat there and because I'm very pro -gun

very pro Second Amendment I've never sat there and thought of the people who didn't like guns

like boy Hate those guys right.

Those guys are the worst and they're evil.

I was like no because in my opinion a lot of those people say Let's take away guns

because I believe that will solve the problem of people being killed by guns.

Right.

I disagree with that.

But the but you believe that they actually believe right?

It's not that they're trying to you know, not all of them trying to be jerks or anything.

It's just like hey, they really I think that this will solve the problem.

But when it comes to abortion That's what's always stifled me is that I can't really think like that

because I'm just like What are you arguing for?

Yeah, I mean you're literally on the killing babies side of the team.

In that same regard this is where like and that we've got to quit marking lines in the sand and dying on

hills that don't matter like like Vaccine not vaccine stuff like that.

Like come on from it for a Christian perspective.

Thank you.

Not be a hill you die on I mean there that can when you're not dying on the important ones, right?

Exactly.

You speak louder about that than you do about the things that actually matter.

I am upset because there are no more Ten Commandments in front of the court, right?

Scene does not include these because we don't pray to open up our school classes, right?

Yeah, I think.

We've gotten lulled to sleep in this regard to hunters point I can

I Can have a a godly Christian disagree with me on so many fronts.

Yeah, I don't.

I don't care if they vote for the same person.

I think sure who cares but in this area if you call yourself a Christian and

Are in support of the murder of children in the womb

used to Used to and we still can I'd now for all those people who say well then it's really

an argument of war life begins.

Then let me tell you why that Encourages me.

Yeah, then we can have a conversation a hundred because okay.

Cuz if you truly don't believe life begins until say week 20 and bring lots of conversation.

We can have.

The problem is there are Christians right now today that will say this.

No, obviously life begins at conception.

It's just not a life that matters.

Okay, a Daughter of a prominent politician in this country.

Both her mother and her father were prominent politicians.

This family said this about ten years ago.

She said a reporter asked her Do you think it is unethical to oppose abortion?

And she said not only is it unethical to oppose abortion.

It's un -christian to oppose abortion, dude.

Let that sink in for a minute.

So again, if it's an argument about when does life begin that's a worthwhile argument that I think we

should have but to those Christians who admit No, it

absolutely is.

That's Another category of an even deeper problem.

I think I believe.

Man, I mean that that's that's sad that saddens me.

Yeah.

So let's let's talk about it real quick.

Sure.

When does life begin?

Let's go ahead and do that and then we're gonna go into your Hector's point and then I've got a Hector point.

You've got a Hector point.

I've got a Hector's just all over this episode guys.

If Hector's your favorite character saddle up.

All right guys so life when does life begin.

Formed you in your mother's womb.

Okay.

So now we've got the womb.

Let's back it up from okay.

I'm outside of the womb.

Am I alive?

Outside of me right here 24 years old sitting here on this podcast.

Oh, am I alive?

Yes has life started.

Yes, okay.

Yeah, when my mom was pregnant with me if God formed me in the womb in my life.

Yeah, okay.

We're still backpedaling.

Let's backpedal all the way.

So when in that womb.

Did life begin before the foundation of the world?

Before the foundation of the world, but I guess he's asking in time.

When did that take place?

Whenever you were conceived I would assume at conception is what you would say.

I would say that at conception.

I would say that you were at least thought of and already figured out.

Before everything even start before time even started, but that's that's the Romans.

Argument, I would assume.

Yeah.

Here's what I would say from a Christian vantage point you've got to do something with the sentence I was conceived in sin

and that's important because David's speaking about a human being right and he's not.

I mean a tree is not conceived in sin the point being is David

makes a really good argument that life begins at conception because God wouldn't call a tree sinful.

Right, that's the point and a tree is alive.

Trees alive.

One common Decent biological argument that could be made.

I won't even put a Hector hat on here.

This is a thought -provoking by the way Christians.

It's okay to think critically and ask questions right make you a heretic even if it makes you a little uncomfortable, right?

They'll say okay.

Let's at least be consistent.

Let's do heartbeat.

Okay, if we're gonna use the little green line going flat to say someone's life is over.

Let's use that the same as someone's life began.

Okay.

All right, even though I think biblically.

You're gonna have a hard time not saying conception.

Let's go there the average heartbeat Begins at about three weeks.

The average woman doesn't know she's pregnant till four to six weeks.

The overwhelming Majority of intentional abortions.

Overwhelming are far after a heartbeat.

So if we're just gonna go based on biology, so let's say all right.

Let's remove the Bible from it, which I always love how Christians fall for that trap.

They can keep their worldview, but you have to get rid of yours.

You have most women don't know that.

I've had, you know, my wife's had two children.

Most women don't know they're pregnant until they're six weeks pregnant.

Five weeks that they're lucky we're talking about a heartbeat that's beginning when the child is smaller than your thumbnail.

Okay, so so I think from a scientific biological argument.

I don't know how you can get past a heartbeat now.

Other Hector's will will or even genuine will say all right, they'll say

pain.

When you can feel pain.

Which is that about as far as we can tell you can only do something test 20 weeks in embryo, right?

Okay.

The problem with that argument where it fails so much is if someone's numbed up on painkillers or they no longer human.

They're no longer alive, right?

Are we really using that as our guideline, right?

Which.

I think there's a very slippery slope that we could easily fall into if we do that around for sure.

I mean, that's that's a horrible way to try to do then you have had the argument of What's it

called Assisted suicide.

Yeah.

Yeah, and euthanasia.

It's like when so if if I can pick when I determine when life starts I can

pick and determine when I think life should be over and if someone is in a vegetated state.

Sure, the brain waves are gone.

They're never gonna come back.

Okay.

Yeah, I have the power of death.

I can kill that person.

I think.

Yeah, exactly and I think.

What's so amazing is the blatant inconsistency we have.

I mean think about it still in most states.

Still in those states if you shoot a pregnant woman and they both die, what do you charge with double homicide?

Okay, right.

But if you go to a doctor and pay government money.

Then you did a good thing right.

What's amazing is not just an okay thing a good thing.

There are some states.

And if you don't believe me right now, I I encourage you to pull out your little cell phone or get your Google fingers

ready.

They're probably on their cell phones watching this but okay that works.

Okay.

Well, I watch on my laptop.

Okay.

We're not all perfect.

Okay.

Thank you.

There are some states that are still trying to do something that was outlawed 20 years ago and bring back

Post birth abortions.

No, no, no, I challenge the Christian and myself by the way.

No, most people find that appalling.

Is it less appalling three weeks earlier?

No, or five weeks earlier.

In other words, it's not less appalling.

It's okay.

It's a little less shocking.

Yeah, because you don't see right that that that's literally what it is.

It's the veil, you know.

Latency, there's a reason that.

How do I say this?

We all rebel in different ways but most of the time.

There's still a level of shame that comes from a rebellion.

There are still certain buildings that don't have windows for a reason.

Because we're ashamed of our rebellion.

Yeah, okay.

What we're talking about now, so so when it's you know, there's a there's a documentary called the

silent screen.

Yeah, it's kind of tough to watch but it's probably should be watched.

When you can't hear it, it's the same reason why some people find it easier to kill a fly than to do a deer.

Right.

Okay.

It definitely is more impactful because it you know, it's funny

as men.

When I put my hand on my wife's stomach.

When Ava was second trimester, so I'm just gonna make five five months.

So 20 to 25 weeks and I put my hand and I felt Ava kick

against my hand.

I'm like That's an alien party.

Yeah, what is that thing?

Whoa, like you can't convince me.

You could have every scientist in the world I You would not be able to convince me

that what I felt that time was not alive.

We can call it whatever we want was not alive.

We're not you know, I talked to my wife about it.

Like what does that feel like?

She goes.

I Really can't describe it to you because some days it feels like

In the early days you say in the earth like very early if your feelings it feels like a bunch of gas.

Right and then later on she goes.

Feels like a creatures inside me moving around all the time like all the time and then

we go to get ultrasound later on and you know, she's not turning to where we could see the.

If if you have not been blessed with going in an ultrasound the past five to ten years since the technologies advanced.

Let me tell you something.

It is so cool.

It's cool.

Anyway, she's just moving this little thing over Rachel's belly and I can see

Ava in there or Naomi and they can see through the skull and see.

See through her chest and see the heart moving.

I mean, this is crazy.

We're talking about she's the size of this little bottle and I'm seeing all this right?

Well, she's not turning over to where we can see her face at 20 weeks

pregnant a child can start recognizing and memorizing voices

outside the womb so in other words.

She in other words she can recognize Voices that she hears all the time at 20 rates pregnant outside the womb

man like fathers preachers radio.

Stuff like that.

It's cool.

It's cool.

I said Ava and I Like Rachel is where you were

at.

Yeah, and then the baby moved in her belly towards me towards what I

do when I just said.

And I'm just like, okay.

Let's call a spade a spade guys.

Kid, I mean, let's at least call a spade a spade.

Are you kidding me?

You're you're not gonna be able to convince me I'm unconvincible in this right?

We have two groups of people when we talk about this.

Really three we have those that know it's wrong, but are afraid.

Okay, that's a very real are scared are Don't know

what else to do.

We have people that's know what's wrong.

There's a really a fool know what's wrong, but are in rebellion.

I Don't care.

It's more convenient.

Yes, I do this.

We have people that think it's actually okay because they don't truly believe it's a life.

Then we have people that think it's okay.

Because they've been told it's not a life that matters.

They've been duped.

They've been told it's just not a life that matters.

So it's you got to know which group you're speaking to when you talk about these things.

But from the Christian perspective you have to accept That God values all life, which would

also include the doctor who performed that abortion.

It would include the mother and include the father who allowed that.

God values all life including the child's right.

So let's talk about.

It's not a life that matters.

Real quick.

Oh.

All right, Pastor Josiah has the Hector hat on.

I have the Hector head on.

Please everyone understand.

I have the Hector head on.

There we go.

Okay, say my Bob the Builder Hector hat.

No.

You put it on side.

Alright.

All right, we got to get Hector beanies or something, yeah, right.

All right.

Yeah patch.

It's not a life that matters.

Okay, fine.

Hector head on.

I accept that is a life and that God would probably not want me to kill this job.

However, the Bible also says to raise your children up in the nurture and the admonition of the Lord.

I Would not be able to provide this child with a loving godly life.

It's a one -parent household, there's no one else.

I don't have the money to do it.

I'd have to put them up for Adoption.

Anyway, I can't take care of this child.

I'm in not a state to do it.

I am too young.

I am too Mentally distressed.

I have too much going on.

I have too many issues.

I would not be able to raise this child up as God would have it.

So I'm gonna fail either way.

I'm gonna fail either way and I'm gonna pull a lot of people's other people's lives in the dirt with me if I go

through This pregnancy.

So what am I supposed to do when it God rather me though?

He probably would not prefer to just get rid of this child.

Man, that's really hard for me to wear this.

To get rid of this child so that I don't cause despair and all these other areas as well.

Well.

First question would be has there ever been.

That was really hard for me to say by the way.

Okay, Oh Hector.

Yeah, has there ever been an accidental pregnancy and I'll ask that to the table an.

Accidental pregnancy.

My Hector head is off now.

Yeah, the Hector hat is off.

I don't I don't I.

Don't believe in fate.

I don't believe in whatnot.

I'm sorry.

I don't believe in coincidences.

I don't believe in accidents.

Everything has a purpose everything has a everything has been planned out.

Purposed by whom or by what purpose by God for God's glory.

Okay, so it's your belief that things that happen Everything that happened is purposed by God.

Yes.

Yeah, I'm into by God.

Uh -huh, which is.

Yep, wait, are you really?

Mm -hmm.

Hold on.

Hold on.

I'm not kidding.

We're no disrespect.

I just I didn't know that.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, you're legit a determinist.

Mm -hmm.

Oh, I think it to what extent before we move on.

I'm sorry to what extent I think God has a plan for every single Thing that's ever happened.

Okay, but does he?

Work all things.

He works everything out for his glory regardless of what it looks like for us.

Yeah, okay, so I'm bored with that yeah so far so am I.

It's not necessarily a determinist stance though.

Well, I think what is beneficial and he even took it back when he said it.

I think that's what's so.

Purposeful because a lot of times we get into and we probably should do an episode on it, by the way.

Sure.

Oh, we have it scheduled free will the term, okay?

I think a key point that would settle a lot of confusion in this area just to make it apply here is it's

not fate.

It's right.

It is Providential in other words, you know, no, that's why I'm so glad that you said that at the end.

There's a difference between saying it's fated and It's Providence because one has a purpose

one does not so an atheistic worldview where we're all just

Molecules in motion, we're all just protoplasms and just doing whatever the Chemical

reactions in our brain brain have destined us to do that's fate.

That's purposeless.

There's no purpose in that.

That's that's that is Atheistic deterministic fate.

Yeah, what Andrew was describing is Providence where there is a grand

designer and purpose behind it and that's a world of difference, but yeah, we're probably point being

point being is in that sense, of course, there's not an accidental pregnancy in that sense because.

I plan for good.

Yeah, exactly I think yeah, and I think the real question is what I'm saying here.

And and the reason I ask is because some Christians will go to the point of saying we don't use

condoms.

We don't use this.

We don't believe in vasectomies.

We don't believe in that because If there is a pregnancy then it was ordained by God

hand -delivered by God and all that.

And so then there are some that just say okay, we won't have any outside surgeries.

But we can use protection or whatever like that.

So it's just the question to the table when it comes to what Hector

brought up is.

About being able to provide a good life and all that stuff is is it a possibility that somebody gets pregnant

outside of God's will?

Outside of his will.

No, I don't think so.

I Think that God will provide no matter what regardless of the circumstances you may fall yours find yourself in

if you are if you are a single parent who

That's any circumstances you get pregnant under God will provide a way

for you.

Okay.

Yeah, I would say that in regards to the first point about well, why even Do

X Y or Z if God has said this will happen all that stuff.

Well, that's the same thing throughout the whole Bible, you know.

He said I'm gonna make sure Nehemiah that you build the wall by the way train your guys and carry swords.

In other words, he uses means to bring it about he didn't just he mean has means to bring it about the same as he Told the disciples

I'll be with you wherever you go, by the way, go sell your coat and buy a sword by the way.

You know eat this, you know all that stuff.

So in other words that doesn't get rid of our Responsibility and what we're supposed to do.

But to your other point I would say you were saying something about.

Well, what did you say after the accidental pregnancy thing I.

Was talking about is it possible to be pregnant outside of God saying you're gonna have a

child.

Certainly possibly pregnant outside of what he desired for your life.

But if you mean outside of his wills and his his control what he has Purposed or allowed to take place.

No, of course not.

But if you mean Outside of what he's permitted.

Yeah, of course this goes into that other episode, but God has Permitted that he doesn't always

get that which he wants.

He always get what he wills but he doesn't always get what he wants.

In other words He made a law.

Knowing that it would be broken.

Right.

So so in that and he didn't want it to be.

You know, it's like the old past I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

That doesn't mean he doesn't kill the wicked.

Right means he takes no pleasure in it.

He's not happy about it, right?

So in that sense when it comes to the the pregnancy I think one

key point that we should make and I'm about to say something so get ready to clutch your pearls.

So this the hogs don't step on.

Yeah, cuz I guarantee you someone's not gonna let me finish this thought process.

Is it gonna be me?

No, no.

No, someone okay being pregnant outside of wedlock is not sinful but

Listen to how I said that being Pregnant outside of wedlock is not sinful.

Now the act that caused that pregnancy for certainly was for both people involved right but the act

of being pregnant in other words.

Someone can fully repent of that make it right all that stuff right and still be pregnant

outside of wedlock in other words.

We don't need to look at the state of being pregnant as sinful, right?

Oh.

Premarital sex is sinful premarital adultery is like the child right from that.

It's not so in other words.

In other words the heart could be for a repentant man

or woman.

Changed and then the woman is still pregnant as a result of the sinful actions from four months ago.

Does that one follow me on that?

All right.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

So that's important for us as Christians to keep in mind is that the consequences and results of sin can

remain far after their penance for him for it has already happened and that's true of all of our lives the The results of

that sin are still going to take place even after that doesn't necessarily mean the sinful state is still there

and the reason that's important is because

Anyone listening here now?

That and I'm by the way men you are not less responsible in this scenario that has

had an abortion.

You are no more a sinner than I am or hunter is or Andrew is.

Now we're still gonna call a spade a spade by the way, right?

Okay, but you're no more sinful than anyone else.

You are a sinner in need of a Savior just like the rest of us so I make that distinction

and I knew I'd get that look because because it it's just the thought of right you May or

may not be in a continual state of sin for the next nine and a half months.

But you don't have to be just because the result of it is still there.

That's all I was getting at.

Yeah, so our shot.

All right, so.

Hold on.

Hold on.

We gotta we gotta answer Hector we got to get down to

what was said.

Is God said to raise them up.

Proper right right in the Lord's love right?

And so he says if I'm not in that position to do that Why is it that I

wouldn't be able to terminate the pregnancy because I would be having it in

disobedience.

Is an amazing little euphemism so used to make it sound better.

Right.

Terminate the pregnancy instead of kill the baby.

I'm sitting here like thinking everything through to try and be as accurate as I can.

What was asked from that perspective.

So the reason I brought up the question Is it possible to be pregnant by accident?

By outside of God saying This is a life.

I knew that baby before it ever entered the freaking egg.

I Knew that baby before the sex was ever had right like I knew its name I knew how many

hairs would be on its head should have live.

I knew this that you know, I The second that sperm hit the egg.

I started forming it in its womb.

Wow, like Right then and right there.

So if I believe that Then I'm hard -pressed to believe that God would say

It's totally chill if you want to kill this that I put in there and

that I formed and that I knew and that I did all that because you you just don't have the

means and Also when it comes to you not having the means with me being the great

provider.

You know, you know I'm saying like if you actually are trying and you honestly had

the opinion I want to raise this child up in love and admonition of the

Lord the way the Bible tells me to and Then you but you're going to ignore the

passage when it says look at the lilies of the field and how it's coded.

Look at even the sparrow right like oh you of little faith I Look first to the kingdom

look first to the kingdom of God and all these things will be added on to you like if you want to ignore that part and just look at this part

that you're feeling like I'm I'm not sure I can live up to that.

It's not about you living up to it.

It's about God living up to it.

Good word.

Yeah, and then another thing to think about is Why would God then

condemn it or why would then God condone a sin word?

Oh because it's I'm a special case, right?

So you say oh, well, this was Okay, I'll say it.

I was raped and now I have and now I'm a child and I'm not making light of that, right?

I'm not making fun of that.

I'm not saying it negative.

Well, I mean, obviously that's negative.

We don't definitely do not want that.

That's awful and terrible and God condemned it I know a lot of people like well, God never say they.

Actually, it was one of the capital punishments.

There were 16 laws in the Leviticus and exodus that where you're supposed to be put the death for.

And now it's the American justice system should take another look at your punishments for rape.

Because God sure did.

But anyway, yeah so.

Someone is raped they have a child and they make all the same.

They say all right the father's not in the picture.

All this everything you just said I'm going to terminate the pregnancy because I can't provide for this child.

Okay, so it was conceived by a terrible evil act a sinful

act.

Why would God then go?

All right.

Well now you can kill it.

And those sins are gonna cancel out.

I'm gonna I'm gonna turn my head and You go ahead and you kill that child and no one's gonna be the wiser.

I won't care when you come to me for judgment.

I'm gonna say don't worry about that one.

Because you were you were you raped and I've heard I've heard this in my own personal life I've heard when I look at that

child, I'm going to be Uncomfortable.

I'm going to be disgusted.

I'm going because I'll see him in them.

As like I don't care about your opinion of your child.

That's that is that that that is the yes.

That would be terrible to see that to see that victim to be the victim every time you see that child.

But that's a child that's another life, right, right and the big argument is okay

because here's my big argument.

Because they say pro -choice right they make a really nice Term for their position pro

-choice, which is always thought was funny because they never tried to soften the word abortion.

They never tried to make that sound nicer, but they just made their stance pro -choice nicer.

And they're about pro -choice choose whether or not to go through with the pregnancy.

I was like, okay I'm also pro -choice.

But the choice is whether or not to have unprotected sex with somebody you don't want to have a baby with right, right?

That's the choice not whether or not to kill it afterwards.

So if we want to talk about choice, I'm pro -choice.

But what it's talked about in the instance of rape Will shoot they say I don't have a

choice.

I didn't have no dang choice in that.

So now what now.

Where do we go?

Because I that was forced upon me.

I didn't want it.

I didn't do this didn't do that or whatever.

So what happens now?

Yeah, that's it's a trap.

Christians are so gullible for falling into this crap because you'll take something guys.

Listen, we as we as people let y 'all listen to me for a minute have got to learn how to think critically you've

got to.

Okay, I'll use just a few examples.

Just because something is called the Patriot Act does not make it patriotic.

Just because something is called the Affordable Care Act does not make it affordable or say that anyone cares.

Just because something's called Operation Warp American Rescue Plan and just because it's all it cares act

doesn't mean anything in name -only.

Grape nuts are not grapes or nuts koala bears are not bears.

I mean we've been great.

Don't argue with me on that.

No, I wouldn't.

Okay appeals.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Say that word again.

The marsupial.

Thank you.

Okay, they're rats.

Well, one is it now get ready get ready for what I'm not saying this.

No one is against planned parenthood.

Right.

In other words who's against parenthood being planned?

Everybody should in name.

That's great.

Sure pro -choice.

Oh, I'm of course women should have a right to choose.

They're creating the image of God.

In other words we fall for the trap of because something is wrapped up in really good.

Wrapping rhetoric and everything behind it must be true.

And by the way, if you still think there's a political issue it happens in both political parties.

But again, this is not a political issue.

It's a Bible issue the the point is.

Think critically for a moment.

I mean In one sense. I am a witness of

Jehovah.

I Believe in a Catholic Universal Church, right you see my point in

name.

Yeah.

But think critically about what those names mean what's behind them and you'll be all the wiser.

For when you actually have to come down to make ethical decisions.

Yeah.

That's my soapbox.

That's your soapbox.

I mean, yeah, it's important and you think about consequences to actions.

Should I go into a kitchen and I Pull out peanut butter.

Hmm.

I open the refrigerator.

I pull out jelly.

Yeah, right.

You see where this is going.

Your mouth is watering.

Pull out just a little paper towel a.

Knife paper towel. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Yeah Yeah.

Because well one when you put on the peanut butter wipe off the knife put it in the jelly because just because you eat

peanut.

Butter and jelly doesn't mean everybody want peanut butter with their gel with their jelly when they go to put it on their sausage.

Or their biscuit.

Okay, does that not make sense to you?

No, no, I typically use a spoon for the jelly and a knife for the peanut butter, but I'm good either way, right?

It's hey, let's take a break.

How are you?

Let's take a break real quick from our.

That just real quick.

Does everyone agree?

Peanut butter on one slice jelly on the other made them not.

Correct.

Butter on one piece of bread jelly on top of that peanut butter.

Plain piece of bread on top.

I don't like that at all.

No peanut butter on both pieces and then you put jelly on then you have double the peanut butter.

Kiss it.

Why don't you just put a thicker layer on the first?

Are you one of those people that puts the sock and the shoe on the left foot and then the sock and the shoe on.

The right instead of double sock double shoes.

Can I be honest?

I'm not consistent with that.

Really?

I'll do it just depends.

All right.

All right.

I'm gonna ask it toilet paper.

Forward this forward.

All right, if you do it back I have an issue with you.

It's forward.

It's not I am no.

I'm hostile about this.

It has to be forward so that your daughter doesn't come in and waste all of it by pulling it 100 %.

That's the thing.

It's about money.

Now let's just talk about this.

The basic principle.

You have to reach farther if the toilet paper is done last time on the back.

You have to reach under and past if you have an old home.

As far as I can all toilet paper rolls are now double rolls.

Like literally every toilet paper roll is a double roll.

Which means none of them are actually double rolls.

It's right thick when you first put it on and it might get stuck and you have to like use seven layers of it.

I know y 'all know what I'm talking about.

You can look at me all you want.

I think that you read judgment and eyes that were non -judgmental because you were insecure about the point you're making.

The judgmental eyes were our camera crew.

Okay for sure that probably was Visual team.

Get what am I gonna call them the camera people the camera people the a team.

Anyway, don't give yourself that much.

Anyways, you have your peanut butter you have your jelly you get your knife you spread your peanut

butter.

Clean it spread your jelly.

I like a doctor ever left put those together and now you have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich

and you say What the heck I do not want a peanut

butter and jelly sandwich.

I'm just gonna throw it away.

Okay one out punch you you don't throw away perfectly good food.

No, you don't and you don't throw away a perfectly good life.

Hey.

Oh, I see the point you're making you see the point I'm making is that you do

This process that has a very obvious Conclusion if you're not right like

that with it like sure sure and and it's it is both for in the Christian Standpoint

it is not just about recreate recreation.

Recreation I was thinking recreation and then recreation, right?

Right.

No, it's not just about making children, right?

I 100 % agree with that.

But no, it's intimacy of a man and a woman.

Should I say hey, hey, babe, I want to have a kid.

That's your process.

Just like if hey, I want to make a sandwich.

That's your process.

So when it comes time for that sandwich to be on your plate and you're gonna get upset.

Like you literally just made it like.

But but that's that's what I'm saying, it's like you can't be surprised and upset at the consequence

of a very basic Natural instinctual

Action like oh Dang, my drinks

flow over because I pushed it.

It's just what happens.

When you make an action, there is a consequence whether that consequence is positive or negative it's up to you,

but just you can't just say I no longer want this consequence because I'm not a fan of

Responsibility or accountability.

So I'm going to do the action without receiving the consequence because I am special.

That doesn't make sense.

Like who gave you that authority.

The government of the United States.

Well, the government of the United States is Here today and gone tomorrow.

It's so amazing.

We can.

What you just said there we can read Old Testament accounts of child sacrifice.

Yeah, molek and they were far less effective.

Yeah, killing their children than we are.

Oh my gosh.

We're approaching just in the United States.

Let's forget about China.

Let's forget about India.

Let's forget about England's forget about France just in the United States in

50 years 50 years.

We're at 65 million children.

Mm -hmm.

That is more people than most countries have citizens.

And that's how many people we're talking about.

Yeah, that means 65 million and It's incredible.

You're talking about consequences have actions.

You know, we always say God bless America.

Can we really ask God to bless a nation that

Murders.

Yeah most.

So, you know when brother Jeff says it's time for us to quit saying God bless America and start blessing God in other words speaking A good word of God

praising God.

It's amazing though.

How many people in the church are silent about that?

Like if there is there if you want something to get upset about and I'm not talking about being rude or crude

right to.

Especially women they're going through that we've helped many people in those scenarios we had one lady who had had an

abortion preach here before but If you can't see that as a worthwhile cause

and you're more upset about a vaccine or a nativity scene you you have your priorities just

Jack you won't talk about a consequence and then you sit and wonder like what does God allowing this country to come to you?

Are you kidding me?

Like are you serious.

It's exactly that like you touch the fire and expect not to be burned right now.

That's what's happening.

And then you blame.

You blame the one who started the fire and of course, it's not just put your hand there and it's not just abortion.

But this is a a clear Example wake up.

What are we doing?

I noticed that Hector has joined the table in the form of a two white men

Who obviously have never had a kid never been in a situation like this.

You have beards goodness.

I don't know because that's it.

That's a thing.

Okay.

You're speaking of your truth.

Your truth is your whole Bible thing.

I Don't believe that my truth is relative to me.

So thus everything you're saying.

Doesn't apply to me because I don't share your same value.

Oh, no.

No.

Keep that Hector head on.

Answer for it Hector.

Yeah, yeah, you using charcoal or propane to grill him, you know, please.

Burning yeah.

They better comment on this video that they like that.

All right, go ahead.

I'm ready, okay, you want him first or me.

It seems like you were excited.

But okay, I can.

I'll chime in me personally.

No, this is Hector.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

So Hector so Andrew.

Is what you just said true.

It to me, yes, it is true, okay, but truth is relative.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, absolutely sure.

It's an absolute truth that truth is relative to the person.

Well, you know what what's what's funny is.

It's an absolute truth.

I wanted to laugh at him for playing along with what you were doing because he knew but then I thought what other

answer is there.

Right.

Spoken to somebody who believed in relative truth that have ever made it past that point.

No, I'm not saying that that person doesn't exist and I will be impressed you can come on this show.

Absolutely because I'll be impressed but Saying I believe in relative truth man.

Like oh, is that right?

Is that true?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I had a perfect set up one time like I'm terrible at baseball.

But I had a slow pitch and I hit a home run on this one.

I'm terrible at baseball.

Senior year.

Yeah, same as touchdown.

Okay.

He's our actor.

You're a nerd to Hector like Andrew.

No, that was me High school, I'll never forget.

I Said it's an absolute fact and then I can still see him.

His name is Philip.

He's sitting off to my left.

He goes There are no absolutes and I looked at him and I'm never gonna be this smooth again,

right.

I said Are you absolutely sure and he said absolutely.

And he didn't get it.

And he didn't get it.

I Find him and ask him does he still not get it?

Okay my point being is it when people say there are no absolutes or truth is

relative is the statement truth is relative relative or.

Is that true?

Now?

There are some thinkers who will say there are no such things as absolutes.

And that is their philosophy and they have these Arguments, but tell you the truth man one I've never

I've never in all my study and all my time are just being interested in philosophy.

Have I ever agreed with the philosophy that didn't acknowledge absolute truth, right?

But then also there are some people who just say it Because they've heard it and they

do not want to pick a side like they think it makes them neutral.

Correct when it does not you have picked the side of incorrect reality is one of the biggest lot.

This is Andrew talking.

I think Neutrality is one of the biggest lies.

Yeah.

Oh for sure.

You can't be there's very little to really I don't think oh, there's very little you can be neutral

on it and I understand there's gray areas.

Yeah, okay, we can understand gray areas, but in the fact of the matter most sides peanut butter

and jelly or tuna fish.

Well, I like tuna fish, okay, what about peanut butter and jelly well like that too, but I like tuna fish better.

Okay, so you have a choice of the things worth debating about.

There is a Left and right.

This is like which is the best.

Batman obviously like those things.

I'm just kidding.

Let's not start.

Oh boy, that would be a quick conversation.

This is a.

Discussion of come on and this it really is a philosophical question.

Say I don't care either way.

Okay, but you did just pick a side by saying that like if your philosophy is I don't care about

philosophy.

That is a philosophy and you are a philosopher and the same way of saying I remember this side this side

I don't care.

Well, you have now made a third side.

That is more.

Self -centric, it's not selfish, but it's the argument a professor of mine made at

College.

He goes if you're against abortion don't have an abortion but don't tell anyone else not to so.

But then but then I was just like So if I'm against rape, am I allowed to?

Not tell.

To tell other people not to rape.

In other words, right.

In other words I have a right to stand up if I think something is wrong.

And by the way, so do you because you think.

That you can stand there in front of us and tell us not to say yes.

You think most.

Like we agree on so many issues.

We think that racism is wrong and we should stand up and say it's wrong.

We think that rape is wrong.

We should stand up and say it's wrong.

So don't come to me and say if you're not if you're not for abortion don't have an abortion.

Then but a lot of people do it.

No.

It's the same as other things if I think it is right or wrong and it affects somebody else which all three of those

scenarios Do.

Then we have an obligation to stand.

He who knows what is right and chooses not to do it to him.

It is sin.

I mean goodness gracious for 19.

Can you drop that mic.

I Would like to like but no, that's a I know that because physically don't drop it.

Yeah, I mean my favorite person in the face all the time.

Yeah.

No, that's that's what I share with most people who ever asked me for advice.

I say there you go.

That's what I live by.

Boom.

Do you know what it's right?

Okay, then do it.

Next not to not to get off of the train.

I had.

No.

You're doing a bad job with Hector man, dude, you told me to keep it on.

Yeah, but we grilled it.

Oh, it's done.

Oh praise the Lord.

Okay.

No, I I have to now I have to go because you've mentioned it twice on this episode Vaccines

the argument you just made is what I've heard a lot of people say we're not about to talk about those, right?

No chance.

Okay, but now I'd say say your point I say my point and then I take your point but the

argument you just made where the professor said you can have it or I don't think that Argument

is what is used now for.

Vaccine mandates my choice my body.

No.

Don't tell me I have to get it.

You can get it all day long, but don't tell me I have to get it.

Yeah, that's a faulty argument because one kills another human being that's inside of you other has to do with your health.

Okay, I'm just I know you what you were doing.

Yeah, I.

Wanted that to be out there and there's just so much to say about what both of you just said right there.

Let it go I said, there's so there's so much good conversation.

Okay, I have a feeling this one's gonna have a part two so it's be fine.

Yeah, you still have a Hector.

Don't you or do we already cover?

Well, actually he did steal my Hector, even though I did point it out before the episode started what it was gonna be.

And you sure did in the scenario of rape.

That was yours.

That was that was mine.

You said no, you said that was his.

No, he said that his is.

Why should I have to listen to you?

Because I'm not a Christian.

Yeah, I said mine was in the scenario of rape and you brought both of them up.

Well, I'm sorry.

Why don't you you know, I don't know.

Why don't you continue?

Yeah, just think of something else Hector.

Shoot shoot, man.

There's a plethora of arguments against it, so I mean well bring one up.

You would put me on the spot like that.

Because now I'm on this spot.

All right, am I my feelings?

What's another?

Well.

Your facts don't care about your feelings.

That was copyrighted for sure.

Yeah, I've kind of got one.

Okay.

Well, no, that's not true.

Kind of got one or not true that you do have one.

Well, it's not really a Hector point in other words.

It doesn't have to be a head and had a point.

So then if Christians, okay, they say all right, so if I accept the biblical

stance That life begins at conception.

What do we do and I think the Bible consistently teaches from Old Testament to New Testament?

That the taking of innocent life is wrong now.

Some one semester theologians gonna say there's no such innocent people.

Yes in the judgment of God understood.

But in the law of man, there is such a thing as innocent not innocent.

Okay.

Taking an innocent life is contrary to the law of God.

Okay.

Yeah, the only exception That Genuine Christians have ever

made to that in church history would be life of a mother.

That's the only exception be in other words to save another life you kill a life, right?

Now we can talk about that if we want to the problem.

With that is it ends up being a distraction from the larger issue because we're talking about Point

zero zero zero zero.

One percent right or some something goofy like that percentage of abortions that what we're talking about.

And that's not the the main issue.

I would say in that scenario.

We're not in that scenario.

We're talking about in a truly save this life or save this life scenario

but Aside from that, I think it'd be hard -pressed for a consistent

Christian To make any other case.

I think it'd be hard -pressed.

But again, I think what we need to emphasize is this

it is.

Not an act and we really probably don't do a good enough job of this

it is not an unsavable or Unredeemable Sin, it's just the same as

the rest of us.

We're just calling a spade a spade but it's literally the same as the rest of us as our Gossiping tongue is our lustful

eyes is our hating somebody our hate our lying lips, you know, so on and so forth.

It's the same thing and there is redemption and forgiveness and that just like there is anything else.

Yeah, and I think that's an incredible point because I've had Bible says

you've been told that Murder is wrong.

But I tell you that if you even hate another brother in your heart, then you've murdered them and you've killed them.

Yeah, bro I've hated I've not just strongly disliked.

I have not been on a not a fan of I have hated like actively Hated.

I have killed somebody.

The same way that's what I'm saying.

Like we just have to argue the fact that yes, it is a sin.

Yes, it is a sin and here's here's something else man.

Because it can be seen as super heartless and dang if I wasn't Just so sure

I'd say like yeah, dude biblical stance is super heartless on this.

Here it is a lot of people will say back to that point of

Man, I don't want to look at my abuser in the eyes of my child.

Like that sucks, that's hard because I did not want a baby.

I was I was planning on this job I was in college.

I was doing this.

I you know, I didn't even have a boyfriend I or whatever and then you were raped

and you got pregnant with that abuser's child and I Hunter would look you in the eyes and say

you have no right to abort that child.

You have no authority That you can use on in heaven or on earth

to kill somebody else and that's hard

it's like uh.

Right, but I didn't ask her I didn't do this.

I just I know that sucks.

I Know that there are gonna be issues, but here's something that uh, your brother taught me man.

That he said and it's never left me.

He said Say that you are.

I am paraphrasing and making my own story out of this because I don't remember how he said it.

I remembered the message.

Say that you are 16.

And you have a car and now your chore is to go do the grocery shopping so you need

to take inventory of what we are running low on and When it comes time to go to the store you go up and

ask for the amount of money that you'll need for the items That you buy.

Right, so you deciphered that in one week you will need to go to the store and grab milk

bread cereal, whatever one week.

From now, that's when you'll have to do it.

Would your father and your mother or your mother give you the money for that right then?

Or they give you the money for it when you go to the store.

When you go to the store, right?

So in the same way, when does God give you your peace and when does God give you your faith when you need it or?

Weeks and months and months before when you need it.

So that's what I'm saying.

It's like yeah, man.

That's hard.

But there's a reason we call it the peace of God that surpasses all understanding there's a reason we

say God is the provider and That God gives us the desire to serve him.

That's Philippians 2 God grants us.

In Ephesians, it says the gift of God faith that God gives us faith.

He grants us faith, right?

So when we say yeah, man, this is gonna be hard.

I'm gonna have to deal with this I'm gonna have to deal with this like heck.

Yeah, you are you are gonna deal with it, but God is the

provider.

God will close you he will make sure that you are taken care of and he will because he is a

personal God who cares.

He will give you peace and joy and he is able to grant you love.

And that's what's crazy and I think of Hebrews 4 15 for we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our

Weaknesses, but one who has tried in every way that we are and yet is without sin.

Yeah, right.

This is a personal God a God who understands a God who cares about those little things.

But and that's not even a little thing, but you know what?

I mean more on the grander scope of you know Providing and raising a child just those little

moments of when I when you see He has the nose of the guy who did that.

Like he looks like that and it that hurt or that fear or that pain or whatever.

Do you have faith in God or do you not?

And unfortunately, that's super cold and that's super like coming from a dude who will never be pregnant ever.

And we'll never go through that.

I know it sounds that way.

But in reality, do you have faith that God can provide peace beyond your

current understanding?

Hmm and if you do then what right have you to say that is too much for me?

Therefore and unfortunately, that is Convenience.

I'm going to kill this kid because I cannot handle that shoot.

I couldn't handle that Good thing that I have faith that God will provide.

Right.

Yeah.

Well said man, yeah, thank you.

Well on that note guys great podcast.

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Certain position.

Anything we said or didn't say that you wanted us to say or didn't like that. We said.

But apart from that guys, we will see you next week deuces.