Telling Mormons about the Grace of Jesus Christ

Apologia Utah

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Have you been LDS all your life, or were you converted?

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Actually, let's see, how long has it been? It's been like 17 years.

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17 years? Yeah. How old are you? 25. 25? Yeah. So, did your parents convert, and then you kind of came with them, or?

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Actually, they were born. Okay. So, I've asked a lot of people, and they just say kind of from birth.

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So, why do you say only 17 years? Because, like, I was officially, like, brought into, like,

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I guess the Baptist Church when that's when

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I was baptized. Okay, so that's kind of when you consider yourself a member of the church? Okay, I understand that. That's fair.

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Have you ever heard any of the differences between kind of what a traditional Christian church would believe versus what the

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Latter -day Saints believe? Say that one more time? Have you ever heard any of the differences between, like, what a normal, like a traditional

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Bible -believing church would believe versus what the Latter -day Saint organization teaches?

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I have. Yeah? Yeah. What kind of things have you heard? Um... What was your name?

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Oh, yeah, names. Callan? Callan. Callan? Okay. I'm Eric. Thank you. Ryan. I would shake your hand, but, uh...

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Your hands are full. So...

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Um... Oh, yeah. I'm still thinking. Yeah, that's right. Like, God is on the earth, like, speaking to prophets today.

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Yeah. Like, that's amazing. I can see that. It's actually really good that you mention that, because that's, like, one of the most fundamental, basic things that we would disagree on.

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Yes. Um... So... Have you ever heard, like, what the test of a prophet is from the

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Scriptures? No. Okay. So, uh... I mean, we both believe that the

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Bible is God's work, right? Like, we have that in common. That, that... Like, we both believe that the Bible is God's work.

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Uh -huh. Sure. You also believe that the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, those are also part of that continued revolution.

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Yeah. But at least we have this in common. So... Yeah, yeah. When we look at how God has revealed

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Himself previously, He gives us a way to test prophets, people who say they're coming and talking on His behalf.

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Yeah. So, in Deuteronomy 13 and 19... 18. 18? Yes. Oh, okay.

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I thought it was 19. Sorry, it doesn't matter. Yeah. Okay. But, yeah. Two spots in Deuteronomy. You're all good with that.

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Let's look them up. Yeah. Um...

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Deuteronomy comes after Numbers. It's the great big word.

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It is 18. Would you mind holding this so that I don't drop it? Oh, that's... Yeah, yeah. Thanks. Deuteronomy?

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Yeah. So... Deuteronomy... So, Deuteronomy 18, 22. There's one of them.

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22? I got 13. Okay. Ah, interesting scripture.

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I like it. Yeah. So, my version, you're probably reading it in the King James, correct? Yeah. Okay, so I have a little more modern

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English. It's the legacy standard, by the way. Oh, yeah, definitely. That can definitely help you, like, understand the scriptures better.

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Yeah. So it says, when a prophet speaks in the name of Yahweh, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which

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Yahweh has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him.

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And then... Yeah, 13 verse 1 until... Verse 1, right? Verse 1.

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Verse 1 and 13? Yeah. Yeah, 13. 13...

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And in a more modern translation, it reads, If a prophet or one who foretells by dreams appears among you and announces to you a sign or a wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says,

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Let us follow other gods, gods you have not known, and let us worship them. You must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer.

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The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the

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Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him.

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Serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the

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Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the

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Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you. Now, that last little bit.

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You must purge the evil from among you. That gets quoted later on in the

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Bible. There is a point in the book of 1

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Corinthians, where Paul is addressing the Corinthian church.

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He's telling them about all these issues that they're having. And he mentions that there is a person in their church who is having, let's call it an inappropriate relationship with his own stepmother.

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And when Paul is addressing this in 1 Corinthians 5, verse 13, he quotes this same verse and says to that person, you must purge the evil from among you.

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In essence, to kick them out. So that's kind of the seriousness of the situation that we're talking about.

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If somebody is a prophet, and they even have signs and wonders, and they give false doctrine, then they need to be removed from your presence.

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Yeah, that's serious. Yeah. So, we would always, like...

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Have you ever read through the book of Acts? Have you ever read through the book of Acts?

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I have. Okay, so it might sound familiar to you when I talk about Acts chapter 17, verse 11.

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Or is it 11 -17? I don't know where you're going, so... The Berean church. Let's pick it up.

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I think it's 17. I think it's... I think it might be 11.

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Is it 11? Maybe. 11 -17? Nope, I was wrong. 17 -11? Yeah, 17 -11.

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Alright, there we go. Okay, so starting in verse 10, it says, And the brothers immediately sent

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Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. Can you tell me one last... It's Acts 17, verse 10 -11.

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Acts 17... So, my version says,

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And the brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. And when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the

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Jews. Now these were more noble -minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

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So what they're saying is, they heard Paul's word. It's a gospel. It's good news.

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And instead of just accepting it for whatever he's saying, but hearing him for his word and saying,

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I believe that, they said, I hear that, and I want to believe that, but I want to search what

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God has said before to see if those things are true. So, as Christians, we believe that God has revealed himself to be eternal, everlasting, before time began, into time, creator of all things, out of nothing.

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He is the first and the last. Before him there were no gods, and neither shall there be after him.

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So, how do you know? Because Isaiah 46 .10 says that. God says that as himself in Isaiah, previous revelation.

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So, when I hear a prophet coming and saying, you've imagined and supposed that God has been

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God from all eternity, I reviewed that idea and teach you that you must become gods yourselves, that, to me,

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I have to take that back to the scripture and test what the prophet's saying. Because if he's leading me after a

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God which I have not known, who hasn't revealed himself to me previously, then I shouldn't follow that prophet.

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You see what I'm saying? Yeah. So, I think we have a fundamentally different understanding of who

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God is, between the LDS faith and biblical

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Christianity. And then, the biggest sticking point for us, aside from that, is there's a fundamentally different understanding of grace.

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Yes. Moroni 10 .32. I think it's much more simple than a lot of people make it.

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The thing is that when initially you see, when initially you delve into gospel principles, it can seem, initially, it's simple.

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There's things that are just simple. But then, when you delve deeper into them, there's more complexity to what's going on.

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Absolutely. The more you delve and discover, the more your knowledge grows and expands. And then, at the end of all this delving and exploring and delving into the complex, comes out the simple truth.

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So, yes, I believe it is more simple than you might think. Yeah. So, how would you define grace?

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Grace. For me, grace is the ever -present help from God, that's working in our lives.

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Help to do what? Accomplish His work. Okay. Which is... Bring to pass the immortality of tomorrow.

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Yeah. Okay. So, God's grace helps us to accomplish things.

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Uh -huh. Yeah. Okay. So, are you saying that it kind of comes alongside our actions?

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To, like, we do everything that we can, and then God's grace comes alongside and ensures that we meet our goal?

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God's grace is with us, no matter what. Okay. So, I guess...

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How is one saved? Like, what does one... What... What must one do?

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Thank you. Yes. What must one do to be saved? That's a question. How do you want to be saved?

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What would I have to do to spend eternity in the presence of heaven with God? What would

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I have to do so you'd want to spend eternity with God? Absolutely. I mean, my heavenly

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Father, I want to spend eternity with Him in His presence, in direct relationship. What do

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I have to do to get to that point? So, the first thing that we... Yeah.

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Is that you need to get baptized. Well, first thing is to have faith. After you have faith, you need to repent.

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Realize there's things that aren't in harmony with... Absolutely. I'm a sinner. I recognize that, for sure.

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You got to repent. You got to change. Once you have changed, and you have a new heart, basically, you don't want to do the things that you were doing before, then you become baptized.

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Okay. And after you're baptized, your sins are washed away, and then you...

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And then we believe that you receive the gift of the Holy Cross. And that can help us along our path back to Heavenly Father.

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Okay. Yeah. So... Repentance. What does that entail?

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Do I need to... Is it a simple thing of recognizing my sinfulness and desiring something different?

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Desiring to... Yeah, they're out in force, man. Is it...

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Is it a... Is it a simple desire to change?

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Or do I have to prove myself by doing better in order to be able to...

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I feel like... Like, do I need to earn the right to be baptized, or is it a desire to be baptized?

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I believe that repentance is a process. Like, it's not something, oh, I've repented, I'm done.

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It's something that's continuous. And it comes... It's really a personal thing.

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So, like, when you feel worthy, like, when you have... Like, really, like, felt like you have been forgiven of your sins, then you can eventually...

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That's when you can go and get baptized. But I... I thought that the baptism was what washes the sins away.

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How can I be forgiven of something that hasn't been washed away yet? I see.

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You see what I mean? Can I say that one more time? So, earlier you said that you have faith, you repent...

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And you're baptized. You change, then you are baptized, and your sins are washed away by the baptism. How can

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I be forgiven if my sins haven't been washed away yet? So, like, are you forgiven at baptism, or are you forgiven when you have faith?

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Again, it's like a process. So, it's like... So, like, as you're growing up, as you're, like, going through a child and stuff, like, in baptism it's kind of like covering all of those sins that I've, like, reported.

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So, the baptism is the final washing? That's almost ceremonial,

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I guess? Is that... Would you say that? Yeah, kind of. Okay. So, like, you feel like you've...

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You've recognized your sinfulness, you've repented, you've turned from it, and you've worked to the point where you're doing better, you're not sinning, and you feel worthy that you've done enough to receive the forgiveness?

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Yeah. And then the baptism is a symbol of the forgiveness you've received? That is the last final symbol of those sins being washed away?

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Yeah, and the thing is that even if you get baptized, like, that doesn't make you perfect.

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Oh, no, no. You're still going to make mistakes and stuff. And it's something we can agree on. And so, like, even though you are baptized, you still have to continue having faith in Jesus Christ, you still have to continue repenting.

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Yes. It's not, like, the end. It's just the beginning. So, I think... I think our idea of repentance would differ a little.

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And our idea of what washes our sins away would differ a little. I think, biblically speaking, it's demonstrated that what washes us from our sins, what cleanses us from our sins, is the blood of Christ applied on our behalf.

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The fact that He died and rose again. He died on our behalf and rose again. Yeah. And it's, you know,

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Ephesians chapter 2 says, by grace are you saved, through faith. Not of works.

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And that not of works and not of yourself. So... That no one would boast. So... Yeah. The salvation that...

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That happens at the moment of faith, which is a gift of God.

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God's giant grace. And it gives you a new heart and you desire Him. So, the repentance there is that change of heart from a desire for sin to a desire no longer to sin but a desire for God.

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So, that's where we see... That's what we see as repentance of our desires changing. Where we recognize...

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Yeah. The flesh remains. Yeah. But... The heart is changed and there's no longer a desire to remain in that sinful state.

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Yeah. But... I think... The part that I struggle with is like Moroni 10 .32.

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I have it on here. Where it says, Yea, come unto Christ and be perfected in Him and deny yourselves...

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and deny yourselves of all ungodliness. And if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love

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God with all your mind and strength then is His grace sufficient for you. So, to me that's telling me that I must...

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I must deny myself of all ungodliness and love Him with all my might. I can't do those things.

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I certainly haven't. But I must for His grace to be sufficient for me.

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You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Whereas... I think biblically what we see is you know, the sinner on the cross simply says,

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Remember me. And Jesus says, Today you'll be with me in paradise. He repented because if you look and harmonize the gospel accounts of Christ on the cross it says that both men on the crosses next to Him were reviling

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Him. And in one account it says one of them looked at Him and said, Remember me. So He went from reviling the

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Christ that was dying on His behalf to recognizing Him as the Christ that fast.

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And asked Him with two words, Remember me. And He said, Today you'll be with me in paradise.

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So, that repentance is... He couldn't do anything. He was dying. He couldn't have been baptized.

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But He couldn't have been baptized. And I understand that's why you have baptisms.

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Because you would hope that one of His you know, later descendants was baptized for Him and He could receive that.

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But... But Jesus says, Today. Today, you'll be with me in paradise. Not later when someone's baptized for you.

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That's tricky. So... And Galatians chapter 1 is another really tough one that I think you should wrestle with.

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Because Paul says that are you familiar with the context of the book of Galatians? So, basically

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Paul's writing it because of Galatians. Because of something back there, I remember. So, there was a group of men called the

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Judaizers. And what they were doing was they were going around and saying, Yes, you must trust in Christ to be saved.

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However, you have to become Jewish first. You have to be circumcised and trust in Christ.

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You have to do this one work of the law and put your face in Christ. Whereas...

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And then Paul uses this very, very strong language in the first few chapters of Galatians when he says that if you add even one work of the law you have fallen from grace.

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Because also in Romans he says if you're working for something if you add one work to anything it's no longer grace.

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You're receiving a wage. If we're working apart from grace then all of our good works are just like filthy rags.

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So, all we're going to earn from the working that we do is death. So, if we've fallen from grace by adding even just circumcision then

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I think adding baptism and continued effortful repentance of action

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I think if you add those to grace you're adding to the gospel in the same way that Paul says you've fallen from grace.

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Christ is of no value to you now. Because you're not trusting in Him fully apart from your works.

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I believe that a regenerate heart a new heart someone who's born again

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I believe that they will have fruit of good works. I don't want you to hear me saying believe in Jesus and then go sin all you want.

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Because Paul anathematizes that too. Go and sin no more. He says shall we go on sinning?

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That grace may abound. And he says may it never be. That's Romans chapter 6. He says no we're now we're dead to sin and alive to Christ we're now free to obey and not have the weight of burden on us that we're trying to do it to earn

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God's grace. It's it's simply trusting in the gift that Christ has has offered that allows us to obey and bear fruit with good works.

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But those good works don't earn us His forgiveness. Those good works don't. Yeah, yeah. You're right.

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Yeah. Good works come from anything. Okay. But I don't think that that's what a lot of the prophets have taught in the

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LDS faith. I don't know. Good works are very very needed. Yeah. They're very worthwhile. But it's not by our works that God saved us.

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So what happens if you don't get married in a temple? Do you get to be with Heavenly Father for eternity if you don't do that?

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I don't know. Good question. You might want to look into that. Yeah, we're just looking at so, okay.

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I'll throw this one. I don't have all the answers. No, that's fine. I'll kind of just give you this to chew on a little bit.

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So we're talking about and you said yourself your good works don't save you. Your obedience doesn't save you.

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No. Right? It's the atonement of Christ. Yeah. So I would say by grace are you saved through faith.

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Not of works that's not of yourself that's a gift of God. Yes. We need to do works. For what purpose?

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For what purpose? Which works are we talking about? Any of them.

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Any of them? Any good works. Yeah, because I realize in Mormonism like there's a distinction between like good works.

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morality versus like laws and ordinances. Like so we're talking about anything including like being nice to your neighbor or baptisms for the dead or some kind of rite or ritual that you have to do in order to be united with God.

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If you have a grave sin having to confess it to someone in the church not just to your

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Heavenly Father like those types of things are being added instead of simple faith in Christ and returning to Him.

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First John says that if we are faithful by confession What do you mean when you say faith and like what's your definition?

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The gospel itself is one completely of grace. And we're talking about like Paul says if it's of grace then it's not of works.

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If it's of works then it's not of grace. And then there's another moment where he says he's kind of summarizing the gospel and he says okay now having gone over all this where then is boasting?

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It is excluded by what law? The law of works? No, but by the law of grace. So what he's saying is whatever the gospel is it is something that removes any ability that we have to boast in our actions our behaviors having done more having done less whatever it is it is completely not of our works.

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So in Ephesians chapter 1 he says we've received every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.

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And he's talking to people who are just like us just as sinful as us. And he's saying you guys have received this.

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Like the tense there is important. Have received. It's done. Yeah, so He said it is finished for a reason.

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Exactly. Because the work was done. So the gospel can't be one of a mix of like faith and works.

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It's faith alone and then as a result of the fact that we are saved now we're new people.

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And so we do work so works play a role but it's afterwards. It's an effect. You know we we get baptized because of something that has already happened.

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Not we cannot cause another thing to happen. We can't cause the remission of our sins by baptism.

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Because you love Jesus. Because you love Christ. Because you're grateful for the gift

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He's given you and your salvation. what

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I wanted to kind of set before you was Ephesians chapter 2 where it says by grace are you saved through faith and then the third article says that through the atonement of Christ all men may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

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What are you being saved by in each of those two statements?

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I hate to like stop this. I was just going to ask you if you had to go. It was a real good conversation.

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But like man I'm kind of just tired from today. I'm not really processing what you guys are talking about.

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Exactly how you feel. So I'm going to have to... That's alright. Well it was good meeting you,