The Lion Roars…Off Key; JOwen, the Muslims and the TR; Zahndified; Synergism

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:34

Morning, welcome to the dividing line. I want to jump right into it today because we have a lot to cover and I don't want to run out of time today.

00:42

We're looking at a jumbo edition today 90 minutes Want to start with a clip.

00:47

I hope it still works. I hate doing it this way. I much rather have a local file, but New story out of Houston Jewish community worried pastor sermon could fuel

01:01

Antisemitism now the reason I want to play this is I'm going to be talking about escaping the

01:08

Great Deception let the lion roar here in the first portion of the program and My concern is that This topic is rarely addressed without a super abundance a

01:31

Super fluid T Is that the term the King James use superfluity of naughtiness?

01:37

I think that was one of the phrases in the King James an excess of emotional energy

01:45

And so Here's a clip that I think illustrates exactly that and what we're up against when we try to Discuss what the

01:55

Bible's actual teaching is Here's a clip from From Houston, let's let's see if this is actually going to work.

02:04

You ready? Jewish community over a sermon by Pastor Ed Young who leads one of Houston's mega churches

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Second Baptist Yeah, dr. Young says he was just quoting scripture, but critics believe his words could incite a listen anti -semitism

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Doug Miller is in the newsroom. He's got the story Doug How the pastor reportedly said he was only quoting the

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Bible but tonight the anti -defamation Lee complains that his words could be Misinterpreted to suggest that Jews are evil and dangerous

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Are you righteous Pastor Ed Young is one of the most influential spiritual leaders in Houston?

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You see the problem with the Jews ladies and gentlemen But some of the words in one of his recent sermons have

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Jewish community leaders asking questions. I know inside You are dirty and corrupt and manipulative and you are trying to work out your own salvation even in Judaism the sermon was not only delivered before his

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Second Baptist Church congregation, but also broadcast on television But did you took that?

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Floodlight the oracles of God the Torah the Word of God and they shined it down Almost just for them.

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They became exclusive and better than others and holy than thou

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I don't believe dr. Young's intent was anti -semitic But we have to be concerned the head of the anti -defamation

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League of Houston said he was dismayed and he joined a delegation of Rabbis that met with Pastor Young.

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These are historical references that have over many years Led to people's fear of the

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Jews and to anti -semitism and we're concerned Whenever those words are used that it will fuel all kinds of prejudice and then

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Paul looks at the Jews and It's almost like you say I know how you Jews operate how did

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Pastor Young later told the Jewish Herald Voice He was just quoting Paul in the book of Romans, but he also told the newspaper quote

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I join you in your lack of comfort. You don't have a better friend than Ed Young. I am a friend of Israel in quote a

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Theologian at the University of Houston who has taught classes on Paul thinks the pastor went too far.

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I think he is using inappropriate language I Wouldn't I don't think that it's appropriate to call

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Jews dirty and then everything that distances Christians from from Jews way up at the top the most important thing that you had an advantage over Everybody else on the earth, but young reportedly has agreed to pull the sermon off of Second Baptist website

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But the pastor's words may have a lasting impact We reached out to dr.

04:41

Ed young but so far today no comment from him or other leaders of Second Baptist Church Reporting live the newsroom

04:47

Doug Miller KHOU Wow Gonna pull it

04:54

Don't pull it. Oh my goodness. You can't preach the New Testament anymore

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You can't say What the New Testament said? Jews are dirty and so is everybody else.

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It's called being sinners for stinking crying out loud. Oh my goodness. Oh But we live in a political politically correct age and believe me.

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I know I know what's happened since World War two I know what's happened in New Testament studies. I mean

05:20

You can you can only whisper about what Paul said in New Testament studies today

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Oh because the whole the whole thing is if Paul said something about Jews in the first century today, we are so stupid and So utterly lacking in understanding that if he said it back then we are just like robots going to go that it must be true of everybody today too, and therefore we're

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I don't even know where to start because that's what this whole thing is about. You can't tell the difference

05:59

Between the Pharisees Who profited from the abuse of the

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Amha adats in the days of Jesus and the Jewish shop owner next door

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That means you're stupid It doesn't mean there's something wrong with the New Testament. It means you are lacking in common sense

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And so you're supposed to pull sermons because there are people who lack common sense my friends

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Every single truth in the Bible has been abused at some point in time if we stop talking about everything

06:38

That's been abused. We would have nothing left to say this political correctness

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Oh my goodness, it is stultifying. It is just destroys the thought process of man, it is just it's just unbelievable

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So I play that because that just happened to pop up. What's the November 5th,

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November 15th so that's fairly new just popped up and It just illustrates

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Exactly what I'm encountering in reading Derek Frank's escaping the great deception and last night watch let the lion roar

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Let's let's start off with some some basic foundational things. This is not about the reality that early on The church and the synagogue went separate directions.

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You can see that in the New Testament You can see the origins of it in the New Testament You can see it in the persecution of the

07:43

Apostle Paul you can see it in the Jews actively And when you say the

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Jews, that's the biblical terminology It's recognized. That's not every Jew it's it's recognized that when you talk about the hypocrisy of the

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Scribes and Pharisees That there were good Jewish people. There were God fears.

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There were people that came into the church They they embraced Jesus Christ. There were there were those who are looking for the promised

08:10

Messiah, etc, etc, etc The New Testament makes those distinctions, but evidently we're not smart enough to do that anymore

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Because that's why we can't talk about this because there might be someone who you know, the reduced book have lasting impact

08:26

Yeah, well, I hope they have lasting impact if buddy everything I heard him say Was straight out of the

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New Testament, so I guess you can't preach on what Paul said or anything like that That's still bugging me.

08:38

I'm gonna I'm gonna Minimize it here as I just came in. Well, you got that one there now now don't we be reminded?

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Early schism Between the Jews and the Christians now, obviously the

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Romans didn't recognize this at first It's pretty obvious that for example when Paul is arrested

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Initially the response the Romans is this is some inter -jewish argument about resurrection you all go

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You know, I'm not gonna judge these things go away so You see the foundations there you see that there are

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Jews described in the New Testament who are absolutely as Paul was before his conversion

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Unremittingly opposed to Jesus and in fact saw the proclamation of Jesus as the

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Messiah as Something had to be wiped out had to be wiped out

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Just a deep deep animosity toward the message of the gospel and there are people like that today

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I can name some rabbis out there today. That's right books and and So on and so forth

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So that's a given Then what's unfortunately missing seemingly in the understanding of Derek Frank at all

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One of the key things that must be understood in church history I'm again, I was teaching this you can go back you can ask my students as if they would remember

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I'd like to think they'd remember but If they would remember you could ask the students that I started teaching what year was as 90 or 91

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Get which year it was. It was 91 That I taught my first Undergraduate level class at Grand Canyon College back then or had had to become a university by 91.

10:43

I don't remember anyway Sometime around there and The first class

10:53

I taught was church history One of the last classes that I've taught church history you have in February now and numerous times in between in various contexts

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If you ask them one of the things that I bring up at the very beginning is that we need to recognize

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That the Jewish Christian split Was a reality It was deep

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It had tremendous negative impact upon the church especially in its view of the

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Old Testament and hence view of the New Testament because if you have a Fundamentally flawed view of the

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Old Testament. You're interpreting it primarily allegorically as origin did so on so forth It's going to that's why

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Hebrews has been a closed book to So many for so long But it had tremendous negative impact in Jewish evangelism and upon the church so on so forth, but there was another item another issue

12:04

That you see developing the big the big step that Begins to move that direction is the

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Council of Nicaea and Constantine's role therein Then you have

12:19

Augustine He does not foresee down the road what his words will lead to but especially in regards to the

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Donatist controversy he makes statements that 400 years down the road are going to lead to actions.

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He could not have conceived of Unfortunately, a lot of modern people could care less about that and will hold him accountable for all that and That is the rise of sacralism the state church

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Under Theodosius at the end of the fourth century. You have the establishment of Christianity as a state religion of the

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Roman Empire We can all hopefully recognize

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The great negative impact that that had upon the Christian faith No one is born into Christianity Christianity dies

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When its people think it is genetically passed on Look at Europe good evidence and so the rise of sacralism

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Resulted in severe degradations of the

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Christian experience and Christian faith it also had tremendous theological ramifications and And Just as the

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Jews used their political clout at the beginning to persecute Christians now the tables are reversed and now the church unnaturally

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Due to its relationship with and I'm using the church here very generally got to understand

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One of the greatest problems here is that we talk about the church and we're talking about either institutional church the external church

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Are we talking about the true church? Are we talking about the invisible church? Are we talking about the church in its local expression?

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It's it's a term that unfortunately you have to define each of your uses of it or it can it can be very very confusing

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But the church External church the organizational church now that it has political power itself those feelings of animosity

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Toward the Jews become amplified and You end up with the quotations

14:49

That no one disputes exist you have the situation with someone like Ambrose and my concern here is is

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Church history is a subject that can be extremely easily abused

15:08

I Have a long history of for example criticizing the late

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Dave Hunt For his exceptionally surface level

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Criticisms of people like Augusta, it's so easy for us to sit here today and look back and see differences

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In what people said and did in the past in comparison to what

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I consider to be strict biblical orthodoxy today and Instead of asking why instead of asking what was meant instead of asking what what was the controversy this person was involved in?

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it's just Dismissed them there. They were just a bunch of heretics now

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Once you have state church ism You do have a lot of people masquerading as Christians who are not

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Christians I can't look into somebody's heart But the same time I Recognize that man,

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I hope 500 years from now or a thousand years from now or two thousand years from now if the

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Lord were to tarry that long That if someone looks back at my puny efforts I will be judged for the context in which

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I lived not on the basis of where they are 2 ,000 years from now, which may or may not be Progressed beyond where we are now

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I would say there there are ways in which we have progressed farther than those in the ancient world

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But I fully reject the idea that just because we are at a later period of time means that we are ahead

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We've advanced. I think there are many ways in which we have regressed Beyond those the ancient world so This whole concept of sacralism begins to develop that I've warned many many times you you don't look at history and Find these lists where there's dates, you know, this developed on this day and this came up.

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That's not how history works. I Mean, you know today things are happening really really really fast

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But still you can't say gay marriage started on such -and -such a date it's obviously the confluence of all sorts of degradations and profanings of Godly institutions and so on so forth has led as a process to this and Things are happening far faster today than they could ever happen to the past just simply because communication

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This simply because communication So when you see those lists and say well this happened this and that happened.

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No, no, no, no there's always it's it's a it's multiple factors coming together and They might come together and almost cause something to happen and then they then they separate out

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And it's later on something happens that that happened with the Reformation for example Sacralism develops over time

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It reaches its height during the medieval period After the papacy recovers from the pornocracy

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You've got innocent and isn't the third and and Boniface and people like that and Within the papacy, especially you have becoming absolutely established as a given a state church detestation of the

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Jews and That's simply the context in which the

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Reformation took place. So The book and the film are correct in So far as they state that the

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Reformers Did not address this issue directly now it you know

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I'll also give it credit for I Mean that the film was a little creepy.

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Okay, you see the front of the book Need to be there's front of book. See there's the guy

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Derek Frank is walking through a door there and it's a there's a light This is a direct ripoff of the

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Matrix If the film does real well, they're gonna get sued

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Because I don't know if he's neo Or if he's the architect He's one of them because once he gets into this room and he's got this glowing key he takes off his neo type outfit and now he's dressed all in white and Everything's glowing and all the guest people that make little speeches are standing in light and they're glowing with like satin pants on Toward the end it was it was like, okay.

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All right but clearly Stealing straight from the

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Matrix, you know, I mean, I I have a feeling If we broke into Derek Frank's house and then in the basement this

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There's there's a bunch of Matrix stuff, you know full -size Lifesize things anyway, it was it was a lot on that on that level but They did rightly anyways, sorry for that slight stepping of the story there rightly point out for example

20:37

Luther that when Luther Started. Oh, yeah spoiler alert spoiler.

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Yeah, there's lots of spoilers here guys. Trust me. I What you surprised by that?

20:50

I'm gonna tell you what it was all about When Luther first addresses the issue of Jews, he's

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Extremely conciliatory and evangelistic and kind and and and That's that's

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Luther up until 1525 The movie didn't talk about it, but it's pretty obvious what happened

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I've said many times there are many Luther's and The Biggest division

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I see is is between 15 pre 1525 and post 1525.

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Well, obviously Conversion but as far as Protestant Luther is concerned and the peasants revolt in 1525 completely changed

21:40

Luther and changed his view of It this wick out prophets were relevant to I don't have time to get into this all this right now, but There was a major paradigm shift in his thinking and certainly by the end of his life he is vilely opposed

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To the Jewish people, but there's nothing Luther said that had not been said before him with the

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Institutional approval of the papacy it was just that's what the culture was and It was a sacral culture.

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Remember one of the issues that brought this about was If you live in City X the idea that you can have multiple

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Religions living in City X was not considered to be appropriate and hadn't been for a thousand years if you lived in Stuttgart Then you had to be a

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Catholic and The Jews had always been considered to be a scandal on that level once you had what?

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Sacralism once you had a state church Now obviously the Reformation laid the seeds of destruction of sacralism.

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There's no question about it and I sometimes hear Roman Catholics going see how the process of Reformation led to all the rest of stuff

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Yeah in the sense of overthrowing the wild -eyed corrupt

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Disgusting papacy's control over everything. I guess you think that was better or something. But anyway

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That subject then does not become central for most of the

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Reformers now there there are some exceptions Martin Buzer You know the

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Free City there That's gonna end up leading that direction that the Swiss Canton's eventually

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More at a much earlier point in time. You're gonna see the breaking down of strict sacralism along those lines but it is not a focus of Calvin and it's it's

23:56

One of the one of my big criticisms. Let me just mention another criticism real quickly before I go on this book would not be acceptable as a project

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For a sophomore in high school in any class.

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I've ever taught and I have taught from high school through graduate level. I Would fail this book.

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I would not accept it It would not be submitted if it was submitted it would be given an

24:28

F immediately And there is no defense for this this is a published work don't tell me oh, that's just that's just popular

24:38

So what blogs are popular? Yes still footnote them, right? Just turn to the back first of all, it's a puff piece.

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I mean, it's a hundred and 121 pages as you can tell large print

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Etc. Etc footnotes The footnotes in the back, you know references

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Well, they're there there are biblical references but every reference to a book where a quotation has been given is

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For example, here's the section on Calvin that I was referring to John Calvin responses to questions and objections of a certain

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Jew That's it Next footnote John Calvin commentary on the epistle of Paul to the

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Romans That's it Now I don't mind if you want to do some of the modern stuff where you don't necessarily worry about for example place of Publication, it'd be nice to know the the edition who published it.

25:47

It's always important to know when it was published But just down right on the bottom level

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You've got to put the page number Hello No page numbers never never

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Not a thing no page numbers John Knox quote in John T.

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McNeil the history and character of Calvinism Would it have killed you to put a page number there?

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You can't check these out You can't find them failure

26:28

Wow How There was no there were no editors available to go.

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Excuse me. Hello I couldn't have I couldn't get away with that and I'm glad I couldn't I wouldn't want to it's embarrassing

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Total failure that that's what I melted down about yesterday on Facebook as soon as I got this thing

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I just I was about to stick it in my in my bag Just take it home is gonna watch it and I just started looking through it and I just happened to turn to Calvin's view on page 12 and 13

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So I started reading it I said, okay, there's two quotations from Calvin that are anti -jewish to You would think with the massive amount of material that Calvin wrote you'd have a whole lot more than that But they got two and so I okay number ten

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I look at them and that's when I start looking through the whole thing. I go Embarrassing Absolutely Positively embarrassing, but I think there's a reason for it

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I think there's a reason for it, but I'll get that I'll get to that in a moment

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I'm sorry so much to talk about here and I've already spent I was only gonna spend first half hour. Sorry about that What led to the eventual

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Destruction of This kind of vile

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Culturally inculcated Hatred of Judaism the

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Reformation did not Rome Reformation Wasn't the first generation but the

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Reformation did I Don't think there's any question about that.

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But so so there is no question of about the institutional sacral

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Sacrally established and Especially when you start looking at the Inquisition's what happened with the

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Inquisition with the Crusades all that stuff That kind of Anti -jewish rhetoric was very common and anybody who studied church history knows it

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Knows it now. Here's the real problem with this entire film and book

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Well here, let me I illustrate it in my Facebook post yesterday After quoting two negative statements from Calvin on Jews Same paragraph no break

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No argumentation to establish that this is related logically theologically

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Historically or anything else and when commenting in Romans 11 26 about and so all

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Israel shall be saved He had dogmatically asserted that quote the Israel of God is what Paul calls the church and quote so in the film what they do is

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They have Calvin Who is played by Kevin Sorbo?

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Sorbo Zor Zorbo Sorbo yes, Kevin Sorbo. What do you play before?

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Who was he Hercules? Okay, so I have Hercules They have Hercules say this

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The Israel of God is what Paul calls the church, okay, the whole thesis of this book is

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We need to repent of holding to a biblical view of the church in Israel Because all this nastiness all this anti -semitism is

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The direct logical demand a result of Recognizing what seems really obvious to me.

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I You look at you look at it's just so seems so obvious to me that We're the true circumcision faith in Abraham The only ones through the true children of Abraham or of the faith, etc.

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Etc. I mean, there's just so much there And yet The whole idea is if you hold to and the book did a little bit more in the film

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I mean the book in the film pretty much just follow each other But They did

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They talked about replacement theology Supercessionism and fulfillment theology all of which are things that are part of the great deception of Satan this is the

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See, this is all based on Derek Frank well,

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I Should have written all this down Derek Frank's dramatic journey of unearthing the great deception, which is just simply a theological position started on a flight to Israel in 1980

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He was praying that God would send his future wife to sit in the seat next to him. Oh, come on.

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Didn't you try that? Only right toward the end, right And was keenly anticipating what

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God might do But instead of a beautiful young woman a Jewish boy sat down next to him and he spent the entire flight feeling bewildered watching the boy play with a

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Rubik's Cube Every so often the boy would take the whole thing apart and reassemble it in its original form as Derek descended from the plane

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He felt the Lord say quote I guess this should be in the 28th book in the

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New Testament Your first love must be for my people who struggle with a puzzle. They cannot solve end quote

32:25

This are Derek's quest for revelation Inspired over two decades by visions words of knowledge and study as he gradually notice what comes last

32:38

Unfortunately as he gradually uncovered one of the greatest deceptions of all time the conspiracy to cover up the church's true relationship with Israel I Likened having to deal with this subject to having to deal with Gail Ripplinger GA Ripplinger remember that's what was on the book initially

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GA Ripplinger, which she herself interpreted as God and Ripplinger Yep, that's who wrote the book was

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God and Ripplinger and when I challenged her on her acrostic algebra

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Where throughout the book she called the American Standard Bible NASB, which is its official acronym but in acrostic algebra, she

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Wrote it NASV because that was a way to make the algebra work. And so I asked her a question

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Why did you call it NASB throughout the book and NASV while doing acrostic algebra remember what her answer was because that's what

33:42

God calls it once you're dealing with folks who start with visions and revelations and Then put study at the end

33:57

It should not surprise me that there is never never never in the book or the film an accurate meaningful historical theologically researched footnoted

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Definition of Any of the various views in regards to the relationship of the church in Israel?

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Never is there a discussion of the remnant? the key Issue to the interpretation of Romans 9 10 11

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Does Anywhere irresponsible to put something like this out if you will not accurately define your terms here

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Responsible how much money went into this? What could have been done with that money to actually promote?

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meaningful theology and even meaningful evangelism amongst the Jews Anyway You cannot argue

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With people who begin by saying well the Lord told me this guy had been seeing this vision and when he visited

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Geneva It's st. Pierre's That's what it is.

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That's why he's so focused on Calvin and stuff and Kevin Sorbo is really really bad

35:17

Calvin beard. Oh, that was oh, that was ugly. That was really bad You you just You can't argue with this because what's the standard by which you're you're to test this?

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Once someone is my revelation How do you argue with that? Well, you argue with it because he's claiming it's consistent with the

35:42

Bible so you use the Bible as your final authority, but I Have argued more than once that this form of looking for revelations and visions and things like that is a fundamental denial of sola scriptura

35:58

It's a fundamental denial of sola scriptura. So we really Don't have the same foundation to stand upon to to discuss these things, but I was looking for will there be a meaningful definition of What any of these terms?

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supersessionism anything Kofi just said my inner professor is so not amused right now.

36:29

He on the other hand of dying with laughter. Yes. Well, sorry Never in the book never in the film is the is the very issue of this alleged satanic deception

36:42

Accurately defined that's the tragedy. It's identified as a satanic deception and By isolating, you know, you have you have

36:57

Hillary of Poitier you have these just laughably bad Presentations of these early church writers who said

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Terrible things about Jews. We won't mention the fact that some of more martyrs for the faith

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Won't mention some of the fact that they live their lives Frequently on the run persecution, etc, etc.

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This is what concerns me. So many people today are so ignorant of history and that's one of the reasons

37:29

I Was I I think I was in New York when something came up online about this

37:36

Um And that's what I'd said, well, I'm gonna have to watch this thing Could someone send it to me and I want to thank

37:42

Michael Brown for sending it to me That's how that's that's the whole reason that I have it He may not be happy now that you sent it to me, but he sent it to me

37:50

And I'm giving you an honest review of it. Um Was because people were starting to write to me.

37:56

Oh Why Calvin say this or why Calvin say that if you there were a couple places

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I was at least somewhat thankful then a couple of places It was acknowledged that this was pretty much the whole culture by the time of the

38:13

Reformation Okay, that was somewhat good. I would have liked to have seen some of the bazillion sources you could have derived in regards to the papacy would have been nice, but anyway

38:29

But you stick Hillary there. I wish

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Hillary hadn't said a number of things This is this is where again, it's so easy for moderns to look back at the early church and just go

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Do we recognize that Hillary Said bad things about the

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Jews. Yes. Yes that had already become that that split had become just a part of What it was to defend the

38:59

Christian faith in that day against those nasty Jews He was wrong about that but to present them as these pompous dressed up Without looking at the rest of what they did and their context and where they were and It's just such a it's not how you do history.

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It's it's how you sell books, but it's not how you do history It's not how you do history and I think of How for example someone like Hillary was so important in Maintaining Orthodoxy in regards the deity of Christ.

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Now. Look the early church is a grab bag and There are certain people. I just don't like in church history, you know,

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I don't like Clement of Alexandria But I can't see into his heart. I Mean if you were to ask for some candidates to someone

40:03

I'd go. Yeah, there'd be one of them but I can't see into their hearts and I think it's pretty silly for any of us to assume that we can so part of my really negative reaction to all of this is the same reason

40:20

I had such a negative reaction to Dave Hunt's playing around with church history is It's because it's just that you're playing around church history.

40:27

You're not you're not really doing church history. You're abusing church history all to make a theological point and then

40:34

Without ever accurately defining the position you're saying is Satan's great deception let alone meaningfully

40:41

Interacting with any of the scholarly material, but that's because this isn't scholarly It's just not it's visions

40:50

It's just a bunch of Disjointed visions. How about dealing with some of the meaningful in -depth scholarship that's out there deal dealing with the

41:01

Israel of God Dealing with You know, I've I've listened to lengthy lectures by Reformed Baptist guys

41:09

Sam Waldron's got stuff out on the relationship of church in Israel and Romans 11 and and don't pretend it's simple

41:17

It's so easy to just demonize the other side. That's what you're doing here I I I'm now having conversations with folks where if eschatology comes up or you say anything

41:28

About holding to the majority view of church history. They're like, oh you're one of them And not because they have any

41:36

Serious understanding of where we're coming from or why we believe it big because of this kind of stuff. It's a great deception so I guess

41:44

I'm the great deceiver now, right because I hold and This whole and then then what happens the reason that I start off with the

41:51

Ed Young senior clip is In the vast majority of instances on this subject

42:00

The people pushing this stuff have an emotional attachment that just all of a sudden makes them

42:07

Go off Rather than deal with this like you would normally deal with any type of meaningful theological disagreement

42:16

And so you can't even talk about it without just starting a war and I've seen it in the

42:22

Facebook comments I've seen comments just on the stuff on both sides.

42:27

They were just like what are you people talking about? Um, it's very disappointing so took the time to watch it took the time to read it

42:42

It would be nice to have you know, meaningful discussion

42:50

But unfortunately, it's almost always all emotions. Let me just state one thing absolutely a there is no question of the existence of Established anti Jewish theology

43:10

Within primarily the sacral church and when the sacral church broke down much of that did too There's no question about that.

43:18

There never has been a question about that If I had had more time I was gonna grab some of the standard history texts read

43:28

Lauderette read Schaff Read Gonzales. It's there. It's not hidden.

43:37

I Being discussed in that text if that's not the only thing being discussed then you've missed the boat, but it's there

43:44

That's not even a question. No one's denying that no one can deny that But what

43:50

I challenge and what I've said in the Facebook post Must be challenged is the idea that to hold to what

43:57

I believe the biblical view is that the promises that we see

44:04

Given to the people of God are still for the people of God The modern state of Israel is not the people of God The modern state of Israel is primarily filled with unbelievers even in Judaism for crying out loud

44:22

If you cannot separate your biblical exegesis from your strong feelings about politics and man,

44:28

I see this on both sides It's horrible what happened in Israel within the past 24 hours

44:36

Here is a nation that has every right to exist that does not want to beat up on its neighbors and It is under constant attack and yet I see stuff man on Facebook.

44:51

I've followed a few Folks I've had interactions with that are Muslims. Oh Wow the

44:59

Insanity and it's insanity. It is in saying Evil hatred of anything has to do with Israel.

45:05

Oh The idea is if you recognize that then you must turn around become a

45:10

Christian Zionist and everything Israel does is great and These are the people of God. No, it's not. It's a secular nation

45:17

It's a secular nation. Oh But it was miraculous how it came about Really?

45:24

Really? You don't do exegesis on the basis of the

45:30

New York Times, okay? You let the New Testament say what the New Testament says and If you want to be a child of Abraham today, there's only one way of doing it by faith in Jesus Christ Because the true children of Abraham to whom the promises were given have always been those who have had faith and To have faith today means to have faith in The Messiah that is not some type of radical crazy satanic deception and I can hold that position without becoming an anti -semite

46:10

I can hold that position and still pray for the Jewish people. I can hold that position and still witness to the

46:15

Jewish people and unfortunately, this book does and people who are promoting that book is

46:22

If you hold his position, you're an anti -semite. That's bigotry. Stop it

46:29

Stop it Stop it and drop it You're getting nowhere with it get nowhere with it's bigotry it's wrong unless you can actually argue it

46:40

Oh, but there have been people look what the Nazis did you're calling them Christians? Hello Absurdity absolute positive absurdity

46:50

I've not heard anyone yet Do anything more than to say? Well, if you don't believe that the

46:58

Jews are God's people today Then someone might do this You think that's reasonable thinking you think that's rational haven't we heard that before Remember the debate

47:14

I did With the one this guy years ago You believe in the Trinity you might burn us.

47:23

Hmm You believe in salvation by grace through faith You might live like the devil

47:30

You believe in the resurrection. You might live like the devil too because Jesus takes your sin You see any truth can be abused

47:38

Any truth every truth has been abused at some point in time That's not how you do exegesis

47:45

That's not how you do exegesis. So There you go

47:53

Undoubtedly will start all sorts of Twitter wars and Facebook explosions and all the rest that stuff and sometimes

48:00

I could like just turn all that stuff off, but it was there it needed to be discussed and So there there we go, there we go

48:12

Where are we here I wanted To there it is. I Wanted to then.

48:19

Oh, and I was gonna cue this up. Oh Brats and frats and rats of Branson You know what live program we're still gonna do it

48:31

I Want to have this queued up do forgive me, but I need to go to YouTube here real quick and Unfortunately, I have to put in the address so let's have some music here

48:52

Youtube .com. Yeah, I know that watch question Wath will not do it.

48:58

Wath will not will not get that going video equals

49:05

Now you can all find it this way to e capital W I capital

49:11

Y 32 BB 2 I hope that's capital K 8

49:17

Got it. All right, you uh

49:23

Know I'm probably not feeding that to you. Am I? Yes, there it is right now

49:31

Working on it working on it still working on it

49:37

Now I'll give you the background Fell by name

49:43

Jay Owen On the

49:50

Puritan board And every once in a while what happens and you know, you would think I do have a lot of friends on the

49:56

Puritan board Okay, I've got a lot of friends in a Puritan But a lot of folks are not aware of the fact that there is a small but vocal Reformed group of people

50:12

Who are very dedicated to the minimally the Byzantine text platform as far as New Testament manuscripts is concerned and More forcefully to the

50:26

Texas Receptus and so every once in a while a little kerfuffle will

50:37

Develop on the Puritan board where somebody will come out and Take some shots at me because he's one of those

50:42

CT guys Critical text means I don't use the TR as a base text and I don't think that there is any meaningful argument that can be

50:52

Mustard that the Texas Receptus is the best text use. I just think utterly impossible to do

50:59

First depends on which Texas Receptus we're talking about too, but that's a whole nother issue Trinitarian Bible Society blue case bound edition seems to be the one everybody likes and So a couple days ago

51:12

Someone on the board button, but with the Nick Jay Owen Said I'm not sure if this has ever been discussed before on the

51:20

PB But this clip is disturbing for a few reasons number one that dr White would not preach a sermon and either

51:25

Luke 23 34 or John 8 1 through 11. Actually, it's John 7 53 to 8 11. Thank you

51:31

To that Muslims are harnessing dr. White and they're apologetic here is the clip Of course the proper

51:44

Response to this would have been Wow. Look how Muslim by choice blows it again because I have demonstrated

51:52

Muslim by choice making errors many times before and Can you bring up can you bring it up without it running

52:03

For a second see was the Bible corrupted as Muslims claim Now what do

52:13

Muslims claim? Well, there is no official position But the standard

52:21

Muslim claim is is that we no longer know what the Torah and the Injil were That there has been wholesale corruption

52:28

So whenever I talk about textual variation They assume oh see you're saying we're saying and I've correct them a thousand times they won't listen

52:40

Sometimes because they don't want to listen sometimes because they're dishonest and Sometimes just because of their love for their tradition.

52:48

I'll let you decide which one it is now Muslim by choice I've corrected over and over and over and over and over again and no honest person

52:56

Would no honest person would take what I said in This clip and say ah see you are you are agreeing with what

53:06

Muslims say Because I'm not But I won't listen to it let's let's it's it's not a video it's just audio

53:18

It'll just go I think over to me a picture of me But here's the clip that Jay Owen is talking about.

53:27

Let's listen to it. It's um, it's like yeah Six and a half minutes long, but this is from when

53:32

I filled in for Janet Beffert And so it's just one of the segments where I'm talking about difficult textual variance

53:41

For a lot of folks I should never do that or at least just do it on the dividing line Well, but they they listen to the dividing line too.

53:47

So yeah Shouldn't talk about these things Then talk about them

53:53

You should keep that covered up Let's not talk about the text of it, let's not talk about the fact that codex codex

54:00

Washingtonianus Doesn't have Luke 23 34 and it's one of the earliest Manuscripts that's

54:06

Byzantine in the in the Gospels Don't tell people Folks the day

54:13

I stopped telling people that is the day I I moved to Alaska and sell tires the

54:20

Christian faith Has nothing to hide We are wide open with our text and if we don't talk about it here

54:27

The unbelievers will talk about it to our children at the University. I will not apologize for talking about these things

54:37

And unless you can give me a meaningful reason why we should be hiding this stuff Then you shouldn't be complaining about either so Let's uh, let's take a listen to what

54:48

I had to say and I'd like to respond to this idea of the Muslims harnessing

54:54

Dr. White and they're apologetic and then why I Stand firmly behind my statement

55:00

That I will not preach as the Word of God that which I'm convinced was not written originally in the

55:07

Word of God Janet Mefford show

55:16

Yep, this is I was filling in So it looks like maybe the old tough questions about the

55:27

Bible today on the Janet Mefford show a little bit more like what I'm used to doing on my own webcast called The dividing line where we take phone calls and we answer difficult questions.

55:35

Let me give an example of what I'm talking about We once did an entire hour long program and we don't have commercial breaks and stuff when you're on a webcast

55:46

You don't have to do stuff like that. And so we spent an entire hour. I had a guest friend of mine by the name of Alan Kirshner and We did the entire hour on a single textual variant in the

55:59

New Testament Scintillating isn't it? Yeah, please don't do that. Well, some people actually find that interesting

56:06

But what we did is we examined the textual variant found at Luke chapter 23 verse 34

56:15

Now I will confess to having gone through most of well all of Bible College and most of seminary

56:22

Without ever having realized that there is a major and important textual variant in the

56:27

New Testament manuscripts at Luke 2334 and Specifically it is one of the most famous words of Jesus That almost everybody has memorized but may not know that they actually have it memorized in the sense

56:40

They know the words, but they don't necessarily know where to find it And it's no it's not judge. Not lest you be judged.

56:46

It's Luke 2334 and Jesus said father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing

56:56

That's a major text of variant what I mean is there are a number of manuscripts early manuscripts one

57:02

Well, actually most of the earliest manuscripts in regards to the text of the book of Luke Do not contain that phrase it's not there and In fact a wide variety of the earliest witnesses

57:19

It's not just what's called the Alexandrian text, but a wide variety of those early witnesses do not contain that now

57:25

What do you do when you have a text that is? Highly questionable that it might be a later

57:33

Expansion well people ask me you know when you're preaching through for example the gospel of John and you encounter the

57:41

The pericope adultery the story of the woman taken an adultery and John 753 through 811

57:47

Would you preach that as a word of God because John 753 through 811 and Mark 16 9 through 20 are the two

57:53

Largest textual variants in the New Testament. There's nothing else that even comes close to those two Everything else is just like a line word phrase a verse something like that, but there those are two blocks of text and As Dan Wallace has put it the story of the woman taken adultery is his favorite story.

58:11

That's not actually in the Bible and he's the textual critic down at Dallas Seminary and The reality is that there is almost no chance that that story is

58:23

Original to the gospel of John not only is the earliest manuscript evidence for it in a

58:28

Greek manuscript from the 5th century But the thing that really makes it obvious is that in some manuscripts.

58:34

It's not even in John. It's in Luke So when you got a block of text that's sort of looking for a place to call home

58:41

That's a really really good indication that it's not original so people ask well If you were preaching through John would you preach

58:48

John 753 through 811 my response always is once I got to John 752 either in Sunday school

58:55

Or in somehow working into a sermon which means my sermons are sometimes a little bit different than the norm

59:01

But I would discuss the issue. I would make sure people understand how we

59:07

Exam the manuscripts the wealth of manuscripts that we have the importance of wanting to know what John wrote not what somebody 500 years after Wanted John to write etc etc, but would

59:17

I preach that as scripture? No, I would not I would not I would I would go to John 812 and pick up from there and In the same way if I was preaching through Luke 23

59:28

I would make sure that people understood this phrase. There is high. There's a high amount of doubt to be attached to it

59:36

Because we have this information we have all this information all these manuscripts and those little notes down at the bottom of the page

59:42

There's a reason why they're there and you might say well. I don't want to hear about that kind of thing I don't like that folks. Let me tell you something.

59:47

It's extremely important We have to be open about our text We have to know about where it came from because you know what that what

59:54

I just told you about the text in John 7 53 through 811 Bart Ehrman loves to use that story to destroy the faith of young people to come into his classes

01:00:04

When he's teaching So where should we be talking about that? Should we be letting the unbelievers talk about that outside the context of faith or should we be talking about within the context of faith?

01:00:14

To talk about the fact that we can obtain the earliest text that we can go back to what they wrote that we have all the original writings

01:00:20

But in the process we need to recognize that there were certain texts that were

01:00:26

Marginal notes like John 5 for about the angel stirring the waters they got inserted in the text all sorts of things like that We need to know our

01:00:33

Bibles. We cannot stick our heads in the sand anymore We need to know what they originally said and be able to give an answer for the hopeless within us

01:00:42

Okay, there you go. Oh Wait a minute Hold on. There's something else here.

01:00:48

One of Jesus most memorable lines is in Luke chapter 23 verse 34 Oh good old barter only

01:00:53

Luke. He's being nailed to the cross and Jesus prays father. Forgive them for they don't know what they're doing

01:01:00

But the verses are not found in some of our oldest and best manuscripts Where the was that verse originally did

01:01:09

Jesus originally say the prayer or not? It depends which manuscript you read Well, there you go now

01:01:22

Okay, so any factual errors and what

01:01:27

I said no If I am convinced that Luke 23 34 is not original why should

01:01:39

I preach it? Well, that's where you start getting into well because of the tradition of the church

01:01:48

Because it has been traditionally preached because many men of old have preached that that text powerfully

01:01:55

So therefore you should well Okay, how about some of the some of the editions?

01:02:01

We find the Latin Vulgate that how about Punatensium agate should we preach do penance that was used for a thousand years in the church.

01:02:11

Well You know once once the standard is no longer what was written originally all bets are off And now it becomes well,

01:02:23

I get to pick and choose what time period What early church father what medieval church father what reformer whatever it might be

01:02:31

It's like when when Doug Wilson and I had that little debate in credenda agenda. I've put it on the on our blog now

01:02:39

It's been there a few years you know, we're going back and forth and he's doing the ecclesiastical text thing, whatever in the world that is and It sounds real good

01:02:51

Until you ask a very specific question. What is it? I want to I want to know exactly

01:02:56

What does it read at Luke 2 22 and as soon as I started asking specific questions?

01:03:01

What it sounded like a wonderful theory fell apart Because there's only one meaningful standard what was originally written

01:03:11

That's that's the issue so Why would it disturb anyone first of all that I would not preach a sermon on a text that I'm convinced was not original

01:03:24

That opens up all sorts of issues and then obviously the Muslims were not harnessing my apologetics

01:03:33

Because they're trying to prove something that I refute they are misunderstanding it

01:03:38

They're abusing it nothing new about that. But even even John J.

01:03:43

Owen should recognize that Since he doesn't sort of sort of sad so I indicated to the fellow that let me know about this

01:03:55

Bill the Baptist that I was going to respond to that on the dividing line and I want to do so and so We have done so and so so there you go.

01:04:07

All right we've still got enough time here to actually make some serious headway in some of the things that we have been

01:04:17

Trying to get through and I think we should be able to finish off the old debate new day stuff

01:04:25

You know Somebody in channel was asking a question that I answered clearly without any question

01:04:35

So do you think that forgive them for they know what to do is inspired? I think I was pretty clear

01:04:41

That was very clear No, I do not. Thank you. Okay, so Brian's on Yes, get ready to be zombified once more

01:04:54

Brian's on this is from the Calvinism debate and It's only five minutes long and well, it's less than five minutes long because I'm playing at 1 .2

01:05:04

speed It's actually somewhat merciful. I think at that point a plain reading of Paul You can do that.

01:05:12

You just would pick up your ESV and it's a plain reading of Paul Through now remember

01:05:17

Brian's on doesn't think there's a plain reading of Paul Brian's on his bibliology is so out of skew

01:05:26

With historic Christianity that there is no plain reading of Paul It's real easy to mock the idea of a plain reading of Paul because there's tough stuff and even

01:05:36

Peter says there's things Difficult to understand in Paul. Yeah, but do you really think when

01:05:42

Paul's written entire? Chapters on a subject that you can't figure out what he's saying Really that's like saying well, we really can't figure out what

01:05:50

Paul's doctrine or justification is. Mm -hmm Yeah, it means Paul's a pretty lousy writer is what it would have to mean

01:05:58

The very thick 16th century lens of John Calvin I think there are other approaches if we're going to have a plain reading of Paul and what

01:06:07

I'm talking about with Biblicism is you did make the claim that Scripture does play the primary role.

01:06:12

No, it doesn't play the primary role That's Jesus if we're going to understand God Scripture plays a secondary role

01:06:21

Epistemologically schizophrenic You cannot know Jesus apart from what has been revealed about him

01:06:30

I Mean this this whole idea that you can you can know

01:06:36

Jesus But you can ignore everything the word says about Jesus So you get you get to this you get to create this your own personal

01:06:45

Jesus like designer jeans for religion You get to create your own personal Jesus and that becomes the lens through which you you you read everything else

01:06:54

You know, I don't know what keeps on within even semi Orthodox Bounds and nothing may be keeping them there to be honest with you

01:07:04

I don't see what it would be a high role an authoritative role But the role of Scripture is to bear witness to Christ who is the true

01:07:12

Word of God? That's what Jesus was wrestling with with his opponents when he said look guys you search the

01:07:17

Scriptures because you think that that's where you're gonna Find it. That's where you're gonna have life. That's where you're gonna have understanding

01:07:22

They are that which bear witness of me and so the final arbiter of Scripture because let's be honest pervasive

01:07:29

Interpretive pluralism is a reality and it's a reality not just because we're limited in our capacity to interpret

01:07:34

Scripture But the argument is internal within the text. So again, uh

01:07:41

Why are there so many interpretations of Bible because the Bible is unclear. It's just a bunch of babble

01:07:47

It's just a bunch of babble. There's no we shouldn't even be here tonight We should be debating.

01:07:54

What is the smell of blue? it would have just as much much meaning as what we're doing because it's just It's all you know, you have to come up with who you think

01:08:05

Jesus is and Then that's your standard. And hey, if you know if you if you end up disagreeing with me,

01:08:12

I Don't know why he was there. I really don't even know why he was there to be honest with you

01:08:18

I mean if I if I bring Moses and Aaron and Hosea and the writer of Psalm 40 into the room and ask does

01:08:25

God want sacrifice? They're gonna have a big hairy debate No, they're not if you're actually going to read them in any meaningful fashion and allow them to speak in harmony

01:08:34

You just won't let them speak in harmony. That's what freaks me out about this guy writing introductions to Old Testament books

01:08:41

As we mentioned before we talked about our Twitter conversation we didn't know what the Tanakh was and he's writing introductions to Old Testament books for some kind of a

01:08:50

Study Bible, which is another good reason to avoid study Bible and and one group is gonna say absolutely God demands sacrifice and then eventually these prophets are saying

01:08:58

I don't think God does God desires mercy and not sacrifice You've opened my ears sacrifice and blood offering you have not required

01:09:04

So, how do we settle this debate we go to Jesus now, and I also noticed Daniel. I like you Daniel I do like you, but I'm gonna be stern here

01:09:11

You never you never use the word reprobate. I know you don't like that word I know you don't like that, but it's not my word. It's Calvin's word. And this is it says

01:09:17

Calvinism debate right there I mean, I'm reading it's Calvinism debate. So we're and Calvin wrote The reprobate that is damned from before birth are raised up through that through them

01:09:28

God's glory may be revealed So Let me ask a question now, of course,

01:09:38

I I'm one of those old fuddy -duddies and I Actually, you know look at the entire text the

01:09:47

Old Testament and things like that actually happen believe it's inspired It's not just an inspired account of what the

01:09:52

Jews thought about Jesus I actually well interesting enough have Jesus view of the Old Testament, which Brian's on doesn't which is strange.

01:09:59

But anyway and when I look at What happens in Oh the

01:10:06

Exodus Hmm seems to be one of the key sections of Scripture key historical events

01:10:17

Where God glorifies himself his glory is demonstrated in the despoiling of the of the

01:10:28

Egyptian gods Hmm that seems to be what

01:10:34

Calvin was talking about too. I mean Don't you don't you think the destruction of like the

01:10:40

Egyptian army in the Red Sea You know demonstration the world's power versus God's power etc.

01:10:47

It's a you don't see God glorified in that Now probably not because it's just an inspired recording of Israel's thoughts

01:10:57

About God, it's not actually God revealing that stuff. The idea is that God's God's beauty.

01:11:03

Let's use that word God's beauty according to Calvin is displayed in that before birth

01:11:10

Let's make you know, he said I'll say something I'll get me and you'll really see that. I'm quite bold If no,

01:11:17

I'm going to see that you're you're quite Twisted in your detestation of reformed theology is what you're on God said

01:11:25

I'm going to create one being and I am going to damn this being to conscious eternal torment

01:11:31

From before their birth. They never have any choice but to be damned. I remember they never have any choice speaking

01:11:43

From the perspective of eternity Ignoring the daily hourly momentary willful choices of the individual

01:11:56

To love self and not love God Just ignores that part You know, they remember they remember that the sinner just flattens it all out only one perspective

01:12:08

Biblically, it is the three -dimensional diamond It's to be seen from many different perspectives.

01:12:15

That's why you have all these things in the Bible But see they can't do that because their Bible is not good enough anymore.

01:12:22

It's not full enough It doesn't have enough in it to reveal a three -dimensional

01:12:31

Reality of this of this matter They've flattened it all out. It's a rationalism

01:12:36

I mean, it really is a rationalistic system when you think about it I will create them with the capacity to experience and live eternally under my wrath.

01:12:45

I would say to that God You're wrong. You're immoral and you said we used to talk back to God like that He'll throw you in his hell and I will comfort myself through the ceaseless ages of torment with this one solace that I told the truth

01:12:58

Oh You just think you're so hot with that one, don't you? you just decided that you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna flirt with putting yourself in the position of The objector in Romans chapter 9 and say you're really cool in your leather jacket and Your emergent shoes

01:13:20

Because I told the truth which you now think you can know separately from God hmm

01:13:28

You might really be putting yourself in the position of the objector to Romans 9 you might really be there now, of course, we realize the

01:13:36

Painting that you picture you the picture you painted up to this point was not exactly Accurate but That if God is to be all glorious under Calvin's system, he must be a universalist if God is to be all glorious He's not all glorious under Calvin's system.

01:13:51

He's terrifying But if he's to be all glorious, then he must save all if it's completely under his control

01:13:57

Why? Why we're not told it's just an unfounded assertion.

01:14:04

We'd have to save everybody to be all glorious Why? What if his glory is revealed in the demonstration of all of his attributes a lot of non clear thinking on Brian's own?

01:14:15

So instead of saying the reprobate are raised up through them that God's glory may be revealed I'd rather say being disguised under the disfigurement of an ugly crucifixion and death

01:14:25

Christ upon the cross is Paradoxically the clearest revelation of who God is because when we look at that God revealed in Christ We discover a

01:14:33

God who would rather die than kill his enemies Well, that was a nice little mini sermon but That's the advantage of doing this you can stop start and go meaning, please foundation, please and When you do so, that's when you really start finding out

01:14:54

The fundamental problems with this kind of argumentation from Brian's on As I said,

01:15:03

I'm not sure how long Austin Fisher is going to be able to Resist the inevitable biblical downgrade because that kind of argumentation

01:15:21

You know now we know then that only a few weeks ago

01:15:28

Brian's on debated Michael Brown on substitutionary atonement and We have started on that in fact

01:15:37

Let me see here open recent Brown versus on how far did we get on that?

01:15:45

Let's see here Looks like approximately 55 60 percent of the way through Brian's on opening is how far we've gotten we haven't gotten into Michael's response and I don't have anything marked after that.

01:16:07

So we started listening to it and once again, we were put in that position where we are

01:16:17

We are very thankful for Michael's defense that he makes of substitutionary atonement

01:16:26

But we're also left going Historically, that's a reform doctrine and he makes mention of that.

01:16:32

He's well aware of our statements about this When I was on Long Island as I mentioned a couple programs ago, we're just gonna get a start on this

01:16:43

I Listened to the debate that took place who makes the final choice of salvation

01:16:52

God or men Pastor Bennett versus Michael Brown, which I forget when it was recorded.

01:16:57

I should have had that information up here, but it was sometime I believe in 2013 if I recall correctly,

01:17:03

I Think I had a number of people that I know were present that evening

01:17:09

In fact, it took place at Grace Reformed Baptist Church where I spoke just a couple weeks ago And I've spoken many times in the past and so I downloaded it

01:17:21

Started listening to it on a particularly long drive in the rain from Eastern Long Island back toward the the city and I was

01:17:34

I was taken aback. I I was taken aback By Michael's presentation

01:17:41

This took place after our debate at SES. So it was sometime What was that mid 2013

01:17:48

June July somewhere around 2013? I think is when this took place this was after our debate at SES and yet there was a there was a real difference in the the form of Michael's arguments and Certainly the presentation certainly the presentation it was a very forceful presentation of synergism and so As soon as I got done listening to the opening statement,

01:18:23

I'm like This needs to be responded to Is there anything new in it?

01:18:31

Over against when we did the Calvinist calling show Um Probably just in the sense of its continuity, you know, the

01:18:41

Calvinist calling show you had callers calling in and Time pressures you've got you've always got a time pressure in a debate too, but I Felt it'd be worthwhile

01:18:54

So we're gonna do that. I'm really testing things here between my comments about Let the lion roar and now doing this

01:19:06

But it's not like this is a topic we have not addressed many many many times before But at least the opening statement because there is so much of the standard synergistic approach to salvation that is presented here and So let's let's dive into it.

01:19:25

We'll only have a couple minutes to get started. All right Thanks so much for coming out here and Bruce. Thanks for the challenge to debate you on this

01:19:33

I wanted you to do really well because you're a former student of mine, and I'm proud of you. I It's because I take you seriously and I've seen what you've accomplished in the stands

01:19:41

You've taken for righteousness over the years that that I agreed to do this and you said hey, this is full -out debate No kids gloves.

01:19:46

We're going to do it So I appreciate the preparation the thoughtfulness behind it and the excellent job You did only problem is the

01:19:51

Bible is 100 % against your position from Genesis to Revelation now

01:19:56

For those not used to a proper debate setting this is opening comment opening comment So I'm not going to be giving a rebuttal of Bruce's statements

01:20:03

But I do just want to say that numerous scriptures were misquoted and misused There are even errors in terms of use of the

01:20:09

Greek and I will categorically demonstrate that anything attributed to my position Was actually falsely wrongly attributed because it's not what

01:20:16

I believe and hold to so in short God Chose this is our sovereign

01:20:22

God's choice God Chose to give us a choice to receive his love or reject his love and I will not dare

01:20:29

Argue with the sovereign God or tell him that his ways are wrong nor will I the pottery tell the

01:20:36

Potter how he's supposed to save now That sounds very good.

01:20:43

It's very early on hasn't been fleshed out. We'll give him a chance to flesh that out, but I I have serious reservations and problems with the assertion that God Sovereignly chooses to not be sovereign in the matter of who is going to be saved

01:21:04

God sovereignly chooses to make us sovereign in the matter of who is going to be saved because that's what's being said and As I said last week

01:21:14

God's sovereignty is not something God does it's who God is and so the whole idea that the central act by which

01:21:26

God glorifies himself by which the Trinity is glorified

01:21:31

Father Son Holy Spirit that it's success its ability to to be actuated in time is

01:21:40

Left up to the rebel sinner man in light of what the Bible says about man's will and man's

01:21:47

Hatred of God and so on so forth. Um pretty pretty difficult

01:21:54

Concept to to accept that to me would be the height of arrogance now

01:22:00

I was saved in a non Calvinist Church in 1971 and From 77 to 82.

01:22:07

I was quite an ardent Calvinist So I really do I've always wanted to ask and I haven't

01:22:13

I have in all the times that we've we've discussed this I haven't asked this but I I I Hopefully will remind myself sometime in the future what is an ardent

01:22:23

Calvinist and Did that result in membership in a

01:22:32

Actually reformed church where reformed theology informs the ecclesiology the worship the hymnology

01:22:45

Church discipline view of the supper You know, it's one thing for people to say

01:22:56

That I Am friendly toward Calvinistic scholarship. I read

01:23:02

Calvinist scholars It's another thing to actually be reformed in your worship

01:23:08

But this is one of the reasons I have a little bit of problem with some my Presbyterian brothers who would say I'm not reformed when

01:23:15

The worship in my church is considerably more reformed than the worship of their church historically speaking

01:23:25

There's more to Calvinism than five points I remember

01:23:32

Preaching on that very subject at Colin Smith's Church years and years ago And There there's there's application that must be made if that application is not made

01:23:47

You're really not You're really not reformed and so the question

01:23:53

I would have which I'm gonna have to ask someday is During that time period and what was it 70?

01:24:00

What was the what was the time frame here non? Calvinist Church in 1971 and From 77 to 82.

01:24:08

I was quite an ardent Calvinist. So okay, so that's Four and a half to five years at most that's a short period of time

01:24:17

Huh No, he's about ten years older than me well,

01:24:24

I'll tell him you said that Rich's immediate response was he doesn't look at Yeah, he's he's he's 60 something.

01:24:33

Yeah fairly early. In fact, my understanding is Do not take him on in ping -pong.

01:24:42

He does have a wingspan. He's a big man He's got a wingspan, but evidently he's pretty nimble on the feet

01:24:49

So any it told me he's lost 40 pounds since we were in Spain together Well, the thought would never have occurred to me.

01:24:55

I'm a klutz anyway, so Ping -pong is not your thing.

01:25:00

Okay, anyway What was

01:25:06

I saying I'd like to find out what church 77 81 was it a reformed church reformed ministry

01:25:14

Thoroughly so or was this just a external attachment to a system that did not have application

01:25:20

That makes a big difference to me may not make a difference to you makes a big difference to me really does I really do respect my

01:25:27

Calvinistic brothers and sisters. I respect the great leaders in the church today who are Calvinist I respect the great leaders in church history

01:25:33

I so honor the prayer that was prayed and the fact that we all sing amazing grace together and it boggles my mind

01:25:40

That anyone could think that any of us for a split second whatever dream that we can take credit for our salvation in any way

01:25:47

This is this is a place where I think Michael is an emotional man and Right here

01:25:57

I I am I'm sure he is thinking about my friend Brian and his phone call on the

01:26:05

Calvinist calling day remember that when Brian called in and I Just don't think despite even my efforts that Michael has yet to grab hold of what

01:26:17

Brian was saying and what Oliver's is saying and that is that if it is if it is just simply put out there like an like a grand amway plan and All of us have equal access this this prevenient grace stuff

01:26:38

If Everybody has equal access if God has given 100 % effort for every single human being on the planet and now it's just up to us

01:26:47

And I don't know how you could ever say that God has given 100 % effort for everything it's just so painfully and obviously not the case, but Theoretically if we're all morally neutral and It's just simply left up to us

01:27:05

Then Where is The ground of boasting oh, but it's a free gift

01:27:13

I know but if the guy next to me Doesn't accept it and I do why?

01:27:22

What's the difference who made me to differ Can't be God So it's something intrinsic to me

01:27:32

It's something in my heart was softer more spiritual in some way shape or form

01:27:39

I am better than the person next to me because I chose correctly and they did not if we're if it's all just a matter of we're all staying on the exact same line

01:27:51

I Choose the right thing. They choose the wrong thing. I Do what's wrong in God's sight then in eternity to come what makes me to differ from that person?

01:28:07

What's the fundamental origin of the difference between us it's not grace Because grace brought us to the same point.

01:28:14

It's me Now it doesn't mean I earned it I'm not talking about earning it

01:28:22

I'm not saying I added something. The point is there was something in my heart that made me somehow better That's I think one of the issues that needs to be dealt with so we will mark the infamous red that's how

01:28:36

I do it Yes, I see that. Thank you and We will wrap up this jumbo edition of the dividing line one that I'm sure will have much conversation and discussion as a result of it but hopefully

01:28:53

You listen because you want to be challenged and you want to learn and Lord willing we will be back on Thursday unless the

01:29:02

Forces of Twitter dumb and Facebook dumb have overrun us by that point