Evening of Eschatology part 1

I'm John Piper and it's September 27, 2009. We're Bethlehem Baptist Church and I am surrounded by friends here, but before we introduce them and talk to them and with them,

I want to pray. So let's pray. Father, I love these guys,

Jim and Doug and Sam. I feel their friendship and camaraderie very deeply on some very, very glorious and deep matters.

There are some differences of perspective on the way we see the end of the world taking shape, but O God, grant,

I pray, that we would see you above all, love you above all, move together toward the world and its tremendous need for the gospel.

And I ask, Lord, that around this table you would give a kind of relaxed liberty, a joy in Christ, a joy over the

Word. We all have Bibles in front of us. That's significant. We're not spinning out ideas, we hope, from our own heads.

We want to be faithful to your Word. We share in common a deep allegiance to the authority and inspiration and infallibility of the

Bible. It is your inerrant, objective, absolute

Word to mankind concerning all that it addresses. And it addresses everything.

So God, I pray that you would help us. This is a free -for -all here.

We want to be able to interrupt each other, back up, go forward, butt in, and we pray that truth would hold sway.

I pray that every view represented around the table here would be faithfully represented.

And if we talk about views that aren't here, we would be kind to them if they are within the biblical scope of orthodoxy.

And I pray that good arguments would be heard, the best arguments for each view.

So come and guide us, we pray. In Jesus' name, amen. To my left is

Jim Hamilton, Associate Professor of Biblical Theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, pastor of Kenwood Baptist Church, is that right?

That's correct. So you're both professor and pastor. Yes, sir. I'm a bivocational pastor. I didn't know you'd do that.

Dallas Seminary, THM, PhD from Southern, and is teaching there.

Now, I won't go into the books that these men have written, but they are all significant. Straight across from me,

Doug Wilson, pastor of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, founding board member of Logos School, trustee, senior fellow of theology at New St.

Andrews College, editor of Credenda Agenda MA in Philosophy from University of Idaho, etc.

And to my right, Sam Storms, a pastor of Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, president of Enjoying God Ministries, THM from Dallas, PhD, University of Texas, and was a professor of theology at Wheaton, but has been in the pastoral ministry, what, 30 years total?

About. Same as me? Well, now I'm older than you are. In fact,

I'm older than all of you. But not put together. There's a certain respect that goes with age here.

Okay. Maybe. Okay. We've called this an evening of eschatology.

That's a bit broad because it bears the marks of the situation we're in.

It really should be called an evening of millennial discussion, even though I'm sure it will go wider than that, which accounts for some of who we are here.

This is kind of a historical accident that we're here because of the conference that was just held and some other things, but when

I say millennial, I mean the issue of, and there are gonna be people watching this probably who don't even know these terms, so we're gonna unpack them, premillennialism, amillennialism, postmillennialism.

Those are the three historic views of the so -called millennium, and they're all represented at this table, unless you want to qualify that title and pick another one.

So that's one of the reasons that we're here. Before we jump at definitions of that,

I think it would be good to articulate something, and you might even want to try relating it to eschatology.

Well, somebody give me a definition of eschatology. We probably should start there. Just jump in. When we say an evening of eschatology, a thumbnail definition.

Study of last things. Study of last things. Anyone want to? Yes, and to be distinguished from eschatology, sometimes eschatology refers to the doctrine of heaven and hell outside human history, you know, past the final judgment.

We're talking about the last things of human history leading up to the final judgment, and then more difficult, a more difficult angle is that I think all of us would agree that in a fundamental way, the resurrection of Jesus Christ in the middle of history is an eruption of the last things in the middle of history, which has sort of thrown a spanner into everything.

Yeah, I want to come back to that. You want to add to that anything, Sam? I would just say I agree with everything they've said that since the

New Testament teaches that the last days began with the exaltation of Christ the right hand of the Father, and we have been in the last days since that time until his return, that it does refer to more than just what typically people think of, namely the last few years of activity upon the earth, that it does really encompass the whole of redemptive history, but especially from the time of Christ's exaltation until the time of his second coming.

Let's say more about that later, that idea of we're in the last days and how that relates to the so -called very end.

So there's the definition that we're all okay with. Eschatology, study of, talking about, thinking about last things, including where we are right now as the last days since the resurrection of Jesus.

Everybody okay with that? I mean, since Jesus. The gospel. We are united here with a passion for the gospel.

Let's make an attempt, you didn't know we were going to go here, let's make an attempt for just a short time to celebrate what makes us so excited to link arms in ministry here.

Somebody make a stab at a uniting statement of the gospel.

The gospel is the proclamation of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the sins of his people and his exaltation to the right hand of God the

Father. That's the good news of God's salvation in Christ.

God is remaking humanity, restoring the image of God, and Christ is that image of God that we are being restored into, and that's the good news.

And the bad news, state the bad news that that answers. Though God created us in his image and put us in a perfect world, we rebelled against him in our first father

Adam. We incurred his sin, and for that we deserve his just right and righteous wrath.

That's the bad news. So everybody deserves wrath because of being sinful and being actively sinners, and God is angry at us for that and will punish us forever if something doesn't solve the problem.

And you said Christ died for us. Unpack just a little bit about that transaction.

What happened when that happened? Died as a substitutionary sacrifice in our stead, in our place, enduring the wrath of God that we deserved, absorbed it in himself, exhausted it, satisfied the holiness and the wrath of the father.

At the same time, his righteousness, as our guilt was imputed to him and the wrath of God fell on him for that reason, his righteousness is imputed to us that we receive by faith, so we stand declared righteous in the sight of the father.

That's the good news of what he accomplished that we receive through faith alone. So it's possible for a damnable, corrupt, sinful human being to stand before an all -holy

God, absolutely safe and happy in God because of what

Christ did through faith alone. Amen.

Amen. Everybody's okay with that? Absolutely. Christ did not die so that we might live. Christ died so that we might die.

He lived so that we might live, so that we're united with him in his death. If we're united with him in his death, we're united with him in his resurrection.

And the good news is God enables sinners to die with a prospect of resurrection.

It's necessary for sinners to die. All sinners must die. That's not a negotiable. What the gospel does is enables sinners to die and come back from the dead.

In Christ. If they die in Christ, they're raised in Christ. If they die outside of Christ, they die outside of Christ.

And perish. And perish, you turn. Forever. So this is good news, incredibly good news.

And we stand there together. Now...

That's pretty good so far. It gets more difficult.

I'm concerned about the complexity of this matter for people. And so I want us to say something about why we're doing this, why this matters.

Why talking about end times matters. And I know this might force you into your statement of where you are, but see if you can hold that back from me.

I don't want to let you all talk about what you believe about anything. But why would you think that people should care about trying to come clear on eschatology, on what's going to happen?

Well, I'll take a stab at that. It would be like somebody saying, I want to embrace the doctrine of election, but I don't want to think about whether it's conditional or unconditional, or based on God's goodness or foreseen faith, or how it relates to the creation of saving faith in the human heart.

I just want to affirm election. Or I want to affirm the incarnation of Christ, but I don't want to really think...

It really didn't help me to think that much about how the two natures relate in the one person, and how he could live a sinless life and yet learn obedience.

Or saying, I just want to affirm the death of Jesus, but never bothering to think about how did his death save you?

What actually occurred in it? What are the implications of it? So I would say the same thing. It would be like somebody saying, well, we just want to affirm the second coming of Christ, but that's all.

And we don't want to learn what has led up to it, and what its purpose is, and how it relates to God's overall plan and redemptive history.

Seems to me that we should want to know all of the implications, both the preceding events, the consequences, the timing, all of the associated realities with Christ's second coming, as much as we would about his first coming, as much as we would about his incarnation, his death on the cross.

So it provides us with, I think, deeper insights into the nature of God, into how he works, into what his purposes are, how he's glorifying

Jesus, if Ephesians 1 is correct, and it is, that all things are being summed up in Christ.

How is that happening? What is the mechanism? How is God showing his manifold wisdom, the beauty and the majesty of his character, the complexity of his ways?

And I think as we explore eschatology, we see that. So that's why I think it's important.

Another reason for the importance of this discussion is the

Holy Spirit, in Ephesians 4, the Holy Spirit is building up his church, and this is an eschatological reality, that the bride is going to be presented without spot or wrinkle or any such blemish.

In Ephesians 5, in Ephesians 4, there is a given unity.

Be careful to preserve the unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace by not quarreling and being sinful toward one another.

But then he says, until we all grow up into a perfect man, until we all grow up into the unity of the faith.

So there's a unity that's given, and there's a unity we must grow up into, and that unity that we're growing up into is an eschatological unity.

So you can't grow up into that in a fit of absent -mindedness. You have to talk about it and think about it and prepare for it.

And the central thing that's going to disrupt this coming unity is sinful disruptions of the unity that's already granted.

And many churches have divided, unfortunately, over eschatological issues, not realizing either the complexity of it or discovering you could create a sectarian mentality and consider everybody in the other camps to be bad or wrong.

Two ministers were talking one time, and one was trying to be charitable. He said, you know, we both serve

God, you in your way and I in his. And that kind of thing can lead to just people getting cranked at each other.

And someone once said that the millennium is 1 ,000 years of peace that Christians like to fight about.

And what we would like to do is figure out a way to grow up into that 1 ,000 years of peace so that whenever it comes, however it comes, we are all sons that are worthy of it, and of course, worthy only in Christ.

And we would agree too that there's a blessing in Revelation on those who read and hear and keep what is written in this book.

And so to keep it, we have to understand it to have this blessing. And I think also of texts like Isaiah 53 and Psalm 2 and those believing members of the

Old Covenant remnant who read those texts and tried to put together what the outcome was going to be before Christ came.

And then Jesus comes and on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24, He says to these guys that didn't put it together the way that it developed and they didn't understand,

He said that they were fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets had spoken. And we don't want to be there.

We don't want to be fools and slow of heart to believe. So these are important things to discuss. You know, what you said,

Doug, about there being a continuity or it's of a peace with the present unity and we're moving toward the fullness of unity that has a consummating point brought to my mind that prayer...in

fact, it's at several points in Philippians, my prayer for you is that your love may abound more and more with knowledge and all discernment nor that you may approve what is excellent so that you may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ.

That's a prayer for right now for the day of Christ. So I think that's significant.

Let's go back to what you jumped on immediately in defining eschatology, namely that we're in the last times.

I think it would be helpful before we get to millennium and define that and talk about it to try to get some structural things.

I don't know if we can get any unity around this or not. We'll see. Anybody want to talk about...I've

got three texts written down here about two ages, this age, the age to come. What is that?

What are those ages? I'll read the text. Okay. Here's Matthew 12, 32. And whoever speaks a word against the

Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Or Ephesians 1, 21, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, above every name that is named, not only in this age, but in the age to come.

Would it help us just in general to get a structure of history in terms of this vocabulary of this age and the age to come?

Or would that muddy the waters unnecessarily? You want to... I don't think it'll muddy the waters, but I think it might...it'll

probably lead to one of the first differences. In 1

Corinthians 10, Paul is talking to the

Corinthian church, and he's talking about the experience of the Jews in the wilderness. And he talks about how they tempted

Christ, and they murmured, and they grumbled, and so forth. And then in verse 11 of chapter 10, he said, now all these things happened unto them for examples, and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world, ends of the ages, are come.

So, Paul is identifying the Corinthians that he's speaking to, and he himself, he's living in...at

the end of the age. These things were written as an example for us, on whom the ends of the ages have come. Now, my basic grid, and I'm just putting this out here now for definition's sake, is that the

New Testament era was an era where ages overlapped, the way you have a baton exchange in a relay race.

One runner is continuing to run, and the other runner starts before the other runner stops, and then there's a baton exchange, and I think that exchange on the track was the 40 years between Christ's resurrection and ascension, and the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70

AD. So, about 40 years, two ages overlapped, the Judaic age, the age of types and shadows, the age of temple sacrifices, was coming to an end, the author of Hebrews says, and it's about ready to disappear, it's about done, but it wasn't quite done yet, and so it's coming to an end, and the new age,

I had to hesitate to say, I believe, but the good new age, the

Christian aeon began at Pentecost, so the

Christian aeon began before the Judaic aeon ended, and the first century

Christians were living in that wilderness period between these ages, they were living in that overlap, and Paul says, we are the ones on whom the ends of the ages have come, so the age, the present age and the age to come,

I take as the Judaic aeon, it's coming to a close, even in the time of the New Testament, and then the

Christian aeon, we're in the age to come, and then when the Lord Jesus comes again, that and the dead are raised, that's the eternal state, so I'm not taking the age to come as the eternal state.

Would you say that we live in the same kind of age that Paul lived in, or that there was a fundamental change in 80 -70?

I would say that Paul lives in the same kind of age that we live in, because it was inaugurated, the difference was, the old age had not yet run its course, he lives,

Paul lived on the threshold of the Christian aeon, and we're well into it, and we're not into an age that has a

Judaic aeon also running, so Paul lived in a unique spot that we're not in, but he lived in the age that we're in.

I would want to formulate things a little differently. A lot differently. A lot, yeah. I think the way I would go after it is

I would point to the prophecies that the Old Testament prophets make, and I think if we summarize

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve, and boil down their message, their basic message is we're going into exile, but after the judgment, after exile, there's a glorious eschatological future that awaits us past this judgment, and they describe this glorious eschatological future not only as a return to the land of Israel, but also as a return to an

Edenic state, and so it's almost as though they're dealing with two exiles, one from Eden and one from the land, and they're describing the glorious bliss as though it's all going to happen together, and then the way it seems to play out is once Jesus comes, it's as though those blessings of the future reach back in and take hold of the present in an already -not -yet kind of way.

By future, you don't mean post -70 AD. No, I mean... You mean post -Second Coming. Right, exactly. Yes. So, for you, the age to come is the millennium, primarily?

Well, you know, it's interesting. There are these disputes among the rabbis about whether what they sometimes refer to as the age of the

Messiah or the kingdom of the Messiah is going to be part of this age or the age to come.

And I think you would want to read that to fit your view, but I would read what they refer to as the age of the

Messiah as something like what I think John describes in Revelation 20, this millennium, and I would read

John in Revelation 20 as coming down on the side of those who argued that the kingdom of the Messiah was going to come before the corruptible things were done away with, and then we enter into an incorruptible new heavens and new earth.

Sketch your understanding of the two ages. Okay. I think it would help if we just clarified what's just been said, because the differences are clear, and I would have a view different from both of them.

What? I think what... And correct me if I'm wrong,

Doug is saying, just for the sake of clarification, that, for example, in the Ephesians passage you referenced, above every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come, that when

Paul says, in this age, he's talking about the old Judaic age that is gradually passing, that would terminate with 70

AD, and that the age to come, as you understand it, Doug, is the age in which we're currently living.

Correct. Jim, I think, would say that in this age is the entirety of the church era between the two advents of Jesus, and the age to come is primarily the messianic reign described in Revelation 20, known as the millennial kingdom.

Well, I think what I would do is come down with those rabbis who say, no, the millennial kingdom is going to be part of this age, and then the age to come is the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21 and 22.

Well, then I'm closer to you than I thought, because I would say that... And I appreciate

Doug's position, I think it will probably come out a little bit more later on, and I think he's got some good arguments for it, just not totally persuaded yet, but I would see this age also as a reference, as Jim does, to the present church age in which we live.

But you would include the millennium. I would say the age to come is the new heavens and new earth, which is inaugurated at the second advent of Jesus.

And you would say that we're in the millennium right now, so that it's realized, right? Yes, but we'll have to define in what sense.

We say we are in the millennium. I believe the millennium is simultaneous with the present age. I would not want to say that I am in the millennium, and perhaps we'll explain that just a moment.

So you're... I just want to make sure I heard this right, that you're putting the new heavens and the new earth post -resurrection at the end of the world?

Okay. What about Isaiah? What do people do in the new heavens and the new earth in Isaiah?

Well, one of the things they do is they die. Well, if we're going to go that path, we can certainly do that.

We must go there, because... But it might be premature to go there at this moment.

Okay. Yeah, it would be. Isaiah 65, the phrase new heavens and new earth is used, and a baby grows up and dies at 100.

Sorry about that. I was imitatizing our eschaton here. I was rushing things.

It's all right. It's all right. Now, Mark 10 .30,

receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, lands with persecutions, and in the age to come, eternal life.

That doesn't sound like post -70 AD. And it doesn't sound like...

I mean, it sounds like the point where we get eternal life. How shall I inherit eternal life?

It's my concern, this situation here. And he says, you're going to get it not in this age, but you're going to get it in the age to come.

Does that fit what you said? Yeah, I'm in the age to come, and I have eternal life, and so do you.

Is that the intention here? So in the age to come. So they didn't have eternal life until 70

AD? Well, no. In starting to read 29, what you just read,

Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, there is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my sake and the gospels, but he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time.

So think for a minute about what Jesus is actually promising.

If this time is what age? Well, there's what

Jesus said, but then there's what Mark intended to communicate. And Mark is writing for a

Christian audience after the time of Jesus. Right, but Jesus said this in the time of Jesus.

Sure, right. But then Mark gives it to believers who live after the resurrection.

Right, right. But the hundredfold, this seems to me, if you take it as a straightforward promise, this is a high -octane health and wealth passage.

Not for John, it isn't. No, no, no, no, it's not at all, because a hundred mothers is pretty clear, right?

Right. That is, it's not literal, a hundred mothers and a hundred sisters. That means

I've got lots of friends who have lots of families and I won't be destitute. But he's talking in very earthy terms, family, children, and lands.

It's a very, and he's talking to disciples who have given those things up.

Right, and have lots of people around them who... And we would interpret this the way that Paul speaks to the Corinthians, you know, everything is yours.

Everything belongs to you. Now, I agree with that, but I would include that everything that belongs to you includes the land, the earth.

All things are yours in Christ. So it's not just spiritual blessings.

It is spiritual blessing, preeminent. You know, the spiritual reality is the governing thing, but it comes down to the level of family and relationship and land.

So, we won't press on this forever. It's just when

I'm trying to understand your view about how this age is up till 70

AD, overlapping from resurrection to 70 AD, and then the age to come begins there.

My whole conception is that the age to come begins at the second coming.

Maybe this will help. When Jesus says at the end of Matthew that, Behold, I am with you to the end of the age,

I don't believe that that means that Jesus will be with the disciples up to 70 AD and then at sea. So Jesus, when he says,

I will be with you to the end of the age, we're not to infer from that that his promise is then null and void for the age to come.

He's simply saying, I'm going to be with you up to the end of the age, and of course, I'll be with you in the age to come.

I think what he's saying here is, I'm going to bless you if you surrender all things for my sake,

I'm going to bless you, I'll keep you, I'll be with you, bless you in just the way it's describing here, family and lands and all of that, and I will be with you.

He's not saying that in this age you don't have eternal life and the next one you will. And he's not saying in the age to come, where you have eternal life, you won't have spiritual family or blessings or, you know, both things are true of both ages.

It's important, I think, just again for the sake of clarity, because I suspect that some who eventually watch this may not have been, have never been exposed to what

Doug is saying, that the age which the disciples anticipated would come to an end that is being referred to here is in what he is suggesting, the

Jewish age, not the end of human history. We tend to think, most evangelicals think, end of the age means it's all over, end of history, time ends, we either go millennium or eternal state.

Doug is saying something altogether different. He is saying that it's the end of the Jewish age that came about in 70

AD because of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and God's judgment against the nation. Right.

And I see that as the inauguration of the new heavens and the new earth. It's a new creation.

All things have been made new. And I don't see how, and my central argument for that would be the fact that we worship on Sunday.

Nothing, if you look at what God says about the Sabbath and the everlasting nature of the

Sabbath in the Old Testament, nothing would suffice to alter the Sabbath commemoration of the first creation short of a new creation.

The reason we worship on the Lord's Day is because there's been a new creation. All things have been made new.

Now, that doesn't mean the kingdom of God, the new age, all of this stuff that arrives doesn't arrive like the 82nd airborne.

It arrives like yeast that works through the loaf. It's a gradual accumulation thing throughout history.

So you wouldn't be able to pop up in 80 AD and take a photograph of it and say, you know, see?

Well, it's a tiny rock that's been carved out in Daniel. It's a tiny rock that starts small.

It's a mustard seed size thing then. You can't see it. You're not going to be able to see it really clearly until 3 ,000 years from now.

Do you want to talk about the millennium? Yeah. One more pre -millennium question.

Do you all believe that the Lord Jesus is coming back physically, visibly, to reign some way or other on the earth forever?

Yes. Yes. Well then. I guess that settles it.