Provoked: The Idol of Pride

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Brothers, what we do in life echoes in eternity. I mean, this is what's wrong with the

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Christian church today. We don't know who God is, and we don't know who we are. This is where we hold them.

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This is where we fight. Officer, you need to repent of your lawless conduct.

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You don't know the law, and yet you pretend to represent it. That's not law enforcement, sir.

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That's being a thug. We will not stop fighting and bothering you all until this monstrous, barbaric practice of legalized abortion ends, and we are teaching our children to do the same.

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God's word says that the shed blood of innocent humans cries out for justice, and mark my words, they will have their day in court.

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Nobody gets saved by being treated nicely. They get saved by hearing the gospel. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

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If we don't open our mouths and commend Christ, we're not loving him, no matter what we're doing with our hands.

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What's going on, everybody? Welcome to another episode of Provoked. We are in our part two of talking to good old pastor

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Luke the Bearer Pearson, and we're talking about idolatry. How's it going, Des? It's going good.

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How's that old tailbone treating you? You know, Jesus is my...

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Friend of mine? Turn the wheel? Jesus, turn the wheel? Jesus is a friend. Jesus is all satisfying.

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That's what I just keep telling myself, because I don't want to complain through the pregnancy, because it's such a blessing. Especially, we prayed for so long for kids that every time

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I start to complain, I'm like, thank you, Lord, for this child. But my goodness, I'm tired, and I'm big.

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When are you due next month? I'm due in like six weeks. The funny thing is, a lot of people see me, because I'm 5 '2", and so I look real big.

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And so people, they're not shy with me, for whatever reason. They'll just be like, whoa, you're big!

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I'm like, uh -huh. This is like people you don't know, they just out in the street. Both, I mean, every

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Sunday at church. Because I do that, but I know you, so. You know, John Barros, when he saw me,

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I was pregnant with Ember, he's like, wow, look at how fat you are! And I was like, you're probably the only person on the planet that can get away with that.

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Yeah, but I'm just, I'm small. I'm a petite lady, so when I have kids, when

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I'm pregnant, you can really see the belly. You're actually standing up right now. It's weird, you can't see the camera.

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Desi's actually standing up, and I'm sitting on the floor. It's really strange, but you know, it works.

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Somebody was like, oh, how much longer do you have? And I'm like, oh, like six weeks. They're like, really? I thought you were just about ready to give birth right now!

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You're a fat cow! Even my niece. What do you got, four kids in there?

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My niece, Reese, Zach's daughter, was like, she said, has anybody told you how fat you are?

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She's you, though. And I'm like, yeah, they did. Because she laughs, because she hears it, too. She's like, I can't believe people keep saying that.

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Gosh, that's funny. You and Reese are like the same person. She's awesome. She's like our adopted Morgan child, too.

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She's always like going on trips with us. She's just, because she's a good babysitter, so I just put her in between my two kids.

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She keeps them in line. She's helping babysit my children right now. She's awesome. She's got the best sense of humor, too. So, part two.

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Before we go ahead and talk about more idols, our first part, we talked about the Idol of Comfort, which

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I thought went pretty well. Yeah. Challenging the church, really. I'm pretty comfortable with it. Yeah. Cha -ching -ting, ba -da -bing.

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You're shooting a pellet gun over there. I was doing the drum thing. You can't even shoot your idol, kid. It was good.

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We're challenging the church in that episode to destroy the Idol of Comfort, really, to get away from this understanding that I can just pursue comfort and neglect the commands of Christ.

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Predominantly, right, his evangelistic commands to go out there and preach the gospel. So that's what that was all about. Before we get into it, go to idolapologystudios .com.

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Become an All Access member. Good save. That's a good save.

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Become an All Access member. Please do that, because number one, it's good for you, good for your family. You get a huge education. I don't know, there's 50,

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I think there's a million hours. A trillion, I heard. Of, million and a half, yeah.

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Million and a half hours of teaching on there, taught by 50 ,000 different people in one. Something, it's huge, 50 ,000 in one.

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It's amazing. And then, you support us, so you pour back in. And I think as we receive from ministries, that we should be able to pour back into those ministries, our help and our support, our financial support, so that we can continue to do what we do.

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And all we wanna do is get the gospel out as far and wide as we can, and to save people from colds and rescue babies.

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It's like, that's what we live and breathe to do each and every day here. But as you go and become an All Access member, you're gonna be able to help that happen.

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And like I say, and I always say, it's worth your investment. That's right. Do it today. All right, well let's just.

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How many times have you said something publicly that was just really bad, where you just kind of said the wrong word?

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Like a day? Like every day? Is it like, is it every day? Well, my dad used to call me the wrong word man. Yeah, that's you.

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That was one of my. That was one of your nicknames. And then, when he, because he had gone to the church that I started for five years, and he said, you know what, one of the reasons that I believe in God is because he causes you to put words together when you preach, because I know that you normally can't.

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And you say all the wrong words all the time. I still love you. Yeah, but I was like, well, that's good. I'm glad God's confirming his existence through my inability to, you know, formulate a sentence.

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See, I feel like my biggest downfall, we've talked about this, because Jude is me.

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Like I look at Jude and I'm like, like Zach wants to smack him sometimes, and I'm like, no, that's, he's gonna be all right.

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He's gonna be just fine, because that's me when I was his age. But like my problem is

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I always get myself in trouble because I say things at the wrong time because I'm trying to make a joke, and it's like not the appropriate time to make a joke.

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You know, and that's what, yeah. And that's always been my problem. But I think you just made me say the wrong words or make words up.

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But 80 % of the time, it works every time. 80 % of the time, it works 100 % of the time.

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80 % of the time, I do just mess up. But 20 % of the time, I'm just trying to make you laugh. But sometimes you use words too that are actual words, but they're just not common words.

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And so I'll be like, was that a real word? And then I look it up. I'm like, dang, that's actually a real word. But it was probably an accident. Spirit of God in me, because I'm a dum -dum.

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Like Zach always says, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I don't know, is it?

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That's the right way. You said it's wrong twice a day. Yeah, even a broken clock. I remember that was like,

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I thought I was all big as I like. Even a broken clock's wrong, and I walk out of the room like I said some really funny thing.

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And they were like, what a dork. You can't even say that right. Well, we are so glad you joined us today.

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My name is Desiree. Most people don't know that. They're like, your name's really Desiree. Yeah, I didn't know that either.

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Yeah, most people don't. I mean, tomato, tomato, but that's what my parents named me was Desiree, but I mostly go by Desi.

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But most people call you Desiree. Well, that's what I thought it was, yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, I will introduce myself a bit.

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Oh, my name's Desiree. And they're like, nice to meet you, Desiree. So, I mean, it's happened my whole life, so I don't really care.

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But yeah, that's my - My name's Desiree Morinette. Nice to meet you, Frank. I'm like, that's not my name. No, I've had people, this is not a lie.

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This is, on several occasions, I'll say my name is Desiree, and they say, oh, you mean Desiree?

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Nope, that's not my name. No, last time I checked my - I know my own name. I actually know my own name. I'm here with Zachary.

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His real name is Zach. And Lukas, Pastor Luke.

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Oh, well, that's like your - Wait, is your real name Lukas? No, no. I just made that up. But we're happy you joined us today. Hey, if you have time, go on our platforms and give us a rating and review, please, because that's how we're going to bless more people and get outside of our little reach here.

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And like Zach said, sign up to be an All Access member. But thank you again for all your messages. We got some really cool messages this last couple of weeks about people starting evangelism teams at their church.

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I think one lady had a message and said they had like 22 people come out for a new evangelism team, an abortion ministry.

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We had another message from a mom that got the courage to talk to one of her neighbors and share the gospel.

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So it's really awesome to see what God's doing through our little podcast. So thank you for all the encouraging messages and keep them coming.

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Let us know how you like the show and yeah, we're super thankful that you've joined us today. I'm excited to talk about smashing the idol of pride because whoo -wee.

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There's a good Spurgeon quote about that. What's it like? The demon, that demon of pride will be with me till the day

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I die. There's a lot of good Spurgeon quotes about almost anything. Yeah. Yeah, so we'll get into that, some idol of pride.

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But I think what you see all throughout scriptures is that when the people of God, which they do, and we should just fess up to it, when they continue in in their idol worship, it always equals judgment, impotence in as far as ministry for God or effectiveness for God.

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It always equals devastation when the people of God worship not only within the framework of God's covenantal people, his people, for the whole world, right?

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So when the people worship idols, it destroys the planet. Wow. But when, and you look at this in the life of Josiah, Josiah recovered the words of the law.

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He actually kept it by himself, reading it and preaching it every day. That was King Josiah.

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And then he destroyed all of the idols in the land, not some of them, like his preceding kings did.

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And that led to 40 years of absolute revival, just heaven on earth when the people of God worship

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God. It spills all out into society and affects everything within the world.

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I mean, it's not, that's what happens. Wow. And you look at the kings, there was good kings and bad kings.

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And of course the bad kings learned from their daddy bad kings. And it was just kind of a cycle of idol worship, disobeying

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God. The good kings were good kings as they had heart after David's heart. But really what was descriptive of a good king was whether or not he, number one, destroyed all the idols or he destroyed some, but it says, he would leave the high places.

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So he's a compromiser. Okay, I'll kind of have this superficial allegiance to God and obedience to his word, and who knows what his motives were, but I'm not going to destroy all the idols because I'm going to keep those idols in place that are good for me and the kingdom that he thought.

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But he was a bad king. So what I'm trying to get to is we want to help you through this little segment and through our show, expose those idols, even though it's difficult.

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And we know because we like to keep these idols in our closet to worship, even though we worship on Sundays, but they absolutely affect your life.

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They affect the life of the church that you're in, your local church, and they affect us as a church nationally.

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But if we as a church, again, we'd get rid of these things. Judgment would begin, as the scriptures say, in the house of the Lord. And as leaders, we would get away from this idol worship.

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Then we're going to see God answer with blessing like he's shown to do all throughout the scripture. So let's get on into it.

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This reminds me of two stories real quick. One is John Knox, this little guy down here is named after this little guy.

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And because we got to do the Covenantor tour. Covenantor tour. They say it funny over there.

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In Scotland, Edinburgh. And maybe you tell them the story of Josiah, maybe think of John Knox who literally, remember we went to Edinburgh Castle and then there was like a little chapel there.

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And the guy was telling us, oh, everything's original but the stained glass. They replaced the stained glass.

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We're like, oh, okay, whatever. So then we do the Covenantor tour later and old

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Jimmy Fisher was telling us that Knox, when there was revival and reformation, he literally went through and took out all the stained glass because it was

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Catholic and it was idolatry. So they didn't tell us that in the tour. And like, oh, that's why the stained glass is gone because Knox took it out.

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So but then guess what happened? There was revival and reformation because he just came in and wiped out all the idols. That's thug life.

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That is thug life. So I was thinking of Knox and then Gideon who

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I meant to mention last show but in Judges chapter six, right where he comes in,

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God tells him to remove the Asherah pole and the altar to Baal that was his dad's.

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It was his dad's altars and false worship. So Gideon comes in one night and cuts the pole down and removes this altar to Baal.

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And it doesn't say this in scripture but like it says that he rebuilt it. He rebuilt an altar to God and worshiped him how he was supposed to worship him.

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But so like, I picture him like actually, tearing this down and then using the stones for the repurposing and using these idols or the stones that he tore down from this altar to build a correct altar to God and worship to God and probably use that Asherah pole to like start a fire.

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So I love the idea of him coming in, taking these things, the false worship, destroying them and then using them in a way that honors

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God correctly in worship. That's awesome. That was absolutely awesome. And I guess the task for us now is how do we lead the church?

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Our church and of course as shepherds, how do we lead them to destroy? Wanna hear a cool story about Knox?

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Yeah. I don't think I told you. Oh, we can go for days. Yeah, so Knox's mentor was a guy named

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George Wissart and just an amazing open air preacher. He would just go out fiercely preaching.

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And so Knox was his mentoree for only a point of about four or five months. And so George Wissart was so,

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I don't wanna say radical, just bold and the Catholic church just had their, you know, had a - Crosshairs.

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Crosshairs, that's it, on top of his head. And so there was assassination attempts. You know what George Knox or John Knox did?

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He would stand in front of Wissart. Did you know this? I don't think so. In front of the pulpit. In front of the pulpit, wherever he may be preaching because he had to go out outdoors to preach to with a double -edged broadsword protecting him physically.

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That's what John Knox did before he - He was his bodyguard. He was his bodyguard. And so there was assassination attempts where guys would come in and you put two and two together, we're thinking he rumbled and tumbled with these assassins trying to kill this guy.

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Wow. Okay, so Cardinal Beaton in New St. Andrew's Castle, or sorry,

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St. Andrew's Castle over there, he orders - Moscow? Yeah, I know. He's just,

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Moscow's always on my mind. He orders the death of George Wissart and it's just brutal.

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I mean, what these people went through, not only, because we're kind of in the pre -covenanter, you know,

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John Knox after Reformation of Scotland, then you really began the covenanter in the 1600s and the middle 1600s was really the point of death and a really high persecution on the covenanter.

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So this is almost pre -covenanter. But he ordered the death of Cardinal or of George Wissart and he died burning alive for six hours.

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Oh my goodness. I don't even know how you can do that, but he went out in an excruciating way.

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And he predicted his death, too. The night before John Knox came to him, it's almost like they all knew.

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He said, I'm gonna stay with you to the end. And he said, no, one sacrifice is good enough. And so he sends

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Knox out, we know this is providential because, well, you know, just purposeful,

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God used John Knox and his whole plan. So John Knox gets away, they grab him, he dies for six hours.

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And then his death stirred up the church, just stirred up the people of God. And so what do they do?

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They go into Cardinal Beaton's castle, St. Andrews, and they find him sleeping, they kill him, right?

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And so who comes down? Mary comes down with her ships and she's bombarding the castle.

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The guys in the castle are holed up trying to stay alive from all of the cannon bombardment from Queen Mary.

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And so the guys are like, we need a pastor, we're gonna be in here for a while. I don't know how long they were holed up in the castle, I think it was a while. It was a year or so, maybe?

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It was a long while. And so they say, we need a pastor, and John Knox is like, okay. So he goes into the castle, sneaks into the castle, he's their pastor there.

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Well, the bombardment continues, and they finally, instead of all being killed, and this is

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God's providential plan, too, they become captives. And so John Knox spends 19 months on the bottom of a ship, rowing the ship.

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It's what Paul talks about, it's a trireme rower. When Paul talks about his own, the way that he viewed himself, it was like the lowest of the low.

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Actually, John MacArthur talks about this. It's the person on the bottom of the deck rowing the ship, because you cannot get any lower than that.

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He was all riddled with all sorts of disease, because you think the guys on the top are going to the bathroom, and that's all dripping down all over him for 19 months.

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And he lived through that, but based upon that 19 -month confinement in slavery, he had physical problems his whole life.

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He was weak his whole life, even through all that he did. All the preaching and all the reformation, he was just physically weak.

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But there, it just leads me to one point here. There's one point on the top of the deck where they would bring the guys up, and they'd say, all you have to do is.

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I was gonna tell the story. Ah, I love it. Sorry, buddy. No, it's fine, it's one of my favorites. Is they would say, all you have to do is kiss the statue of Mary, and you're free.

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And all the guys wouldn't even look. They wouldn't even get near that. And all of a sudden, John Knox says, okay. And it says that all the men, of course, he's a leader.

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They're all looking at him just totally dismayed. Is he actually gonna kiss it? And he grabs

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Mary, and you might help me with his exact words, I can't remember. I don't remember his words. But his words were, if this precious

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Mary can truly help us, then she can float. And he just chucks her right off the boat, right into the water.

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But think of the thug life in that. You're not only on the bottom of the ship, rowing the boat in that horrible, disgusting environment.

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Who knows what happened to him after that? So yeah, he was all about idol destruction, that guy.

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And that's why the nation was blessed because of it. Okay, let's get on into it.

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Let's talk about the idol of pride. What is, let's just define it. What is the idol of pride? Well, man,

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I think it can manifest itself in a lot of different ways. But if I had to define it, I would say it's when you make yourself, put yourself in a position over anyone else or anything else, including

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God. So especially if it becomes false worship when you put your own knowledge or you put your thinking of yourself, the way you view yourself higher than you view

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God. That's good. Yeah, esteeming yourself as more important than others.

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Contrary to the scriptures that say we need to esteem others as more important than ourselves.

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I'm esteeming myself right now. It's pretty hot in here. It is hot in here. It is. I was just noticing that. It's starting to heat up here.

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I thought it was just me. That's good. I mean, man, that is the root of so much fruit.

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That happens in people's life. When you make yourself the object of worship. Thank you, Isaac. You make yourself the object of worship.

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You esteem yourself higher than God. But I guess the question is, how does that play out in people's lives?

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Because if you talk to the average Christian who is guilty of the idol of pride, they're not gonna tell you, oh,

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I worship myself. Oh yeah, I think God calls me to love myself with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength.

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I don't think they're gonna say that. I think that it's something that is maybe so entrenched inside of the heart and the life of a person that they become blind.

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What's kind of the outworking of worshiping yourself for the idol of pride? Well, I can speak from experience on this.

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I think, so one book that has been really instrumental in my life is

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Jerry Bridges. I just lost the title of it.

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Oh goodness. It just came. Respectable Sins? Respectable Sins, thank you. Just escaped me.

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Yeah, so that book's been really influential on me. If you heard last show,

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I talked about how I can be, lean towards being prideful where I don't really care what other people think.

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And so when I really started to get into theology and evangelism, so like that I was 19, and we were just jerks.

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Jerks, like, you know, we love doing it. We have meetings with cults at my friend's house and stuff and like, but we were like, looking back, it was like, man, we were just jerks about it, you know?

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And like, and the way we went about things, we were just rude. And so like, there's a chapter in there on pride.

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And it's, the whole point of the book is like, these are sins within the church that aren't really talked about.

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And then maybe even like lifted up as a good thing. So for me, it was pride of knowledge, right?

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And so like, and I know you, I think you and I have talked about this, like, especially when you do a lot of evangelism, when you're out on the street, or you're out at the

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Mormon temple, or you're out at the abortion mill, whatever, like you can very quickly and easily find yourself wanting to prove someone wrong just for the sake of proving them wrong, just because I have the knowledge and you don't, you fool.

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And I'm gonna embarrass you. And like, I, that was me. Like, I would do that. Like, I found myself, like,

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I don't really care, ultimately, if that person comes to Christ or not, I just wanted to show them that they're wrong. You know?

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And so I think that is where, that's personally my own life, where I was like really, that chapter in that book hit me hard.

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And I was like, man, like, I need to be more about loving the person, like telling them the truth.

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Like I can be, I can graciously, Jack knows I talk, I call it a face hammer.

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I can graciously drop a face hammer on someone in a way that loves them and that's going to point them to Christ without being a jerk.

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Well, something that they need to hear. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So anyways. No, it's good.

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Yeah, I think, you have any thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I would just say pride for defining is. Almost broke the chair, sorry.

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I'm surprised it wasn't me. It's the opposite of humility, right?

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It's the opposite of a humble and contrite spirit. That's a weld I just broke. Oh, you did? Yeah, it's a weld.

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It's the chairs. It's not. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but this wouldn't be the first chair. I'm glad it, like, at least if it happens to me, then at least it happened to you first.

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Well, you just try to hold onto him, then his chair will break and you guys are gone. I have a funny story actually about breaking a chair, but I don't want to take away from your.

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No, that was all I was gonna say. Okay, so my story, speaking of, this was like the opposite of pride.

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This was a humbling moment for me. You know, like the plastic, like they're solid plastic chairs, like for outside.

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Well, I was on a missions trip in Nicaragua and they had those chairs, like we would sit in for the

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Bible study time every day or whatever. And like, you know, it's hot and humid there and the floors were like super gloss tile.

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Like, you know, and it's moist. It's very moist. And so like the floors were kind of slippery.

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And so like, I'm sitting there, I'm sitting there, it's during Bible study, I'm sitting there and like, I could just feel like the four legs just kind of like, like doing this, you know, like I could just feel them like spreading.

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And I was like, oh man, this is gonna be bad. Like, I could just feel it. And then sure enough, soon at one point, they just was, and like all four legs just, and they shattered, dude.

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I mean, it shot pieces of green plastic chair, like all the way across the room, like right in the middle of the

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Bible study. And I'm just like, all the way back. And it was just like, oh my gosh,

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I can't believe I just did it. So then the rest of the trip, I sat in two of them. I stacked them and sat in two.

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So I don't trust those chairs. Like I don't, I don't like those chairs. If they're, if I go to your house and you have those chairs, don't be offended if I don't sit in them.

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Yeah, I mean, they wouldn't even last out here. No, that's true. The heat just melts. Yeah, it was.

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Anyways, so that's a humbling moment. Yeah, God will help you. Where my pride was smashed. That's what we need. We need pride smashed.

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And he'll use humiliating things to work humility in our life.

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But it sucks at the moment, but it's absolutely necessary. Yeah, Idle Up Pride, right? It's where I think

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I'm all that. I mean, I become the object of worship. And a bag of chips. I become the object of worship.

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Everything kind of centers around me. And it's absolutely just devastating. And I've been talking to Luke about this a lot and making a lot of posts, because I think it's at the root of a lot of problems in the pastorate again, to where the man becomes the center of attention.

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You know, his whole life is focused in on himself. It's narcissism within the pastorate.

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You ever heard the story of narcissists where the word narcissist comes from? Well, he was just a man who fell in love with his own image.

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And he fell in love as he looked, I guess he was leaning by a pond and he just looked at himself and fell so in love that he couldn't pull himself away from himself, the gaze, and he pined away.

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And so that's kind of the root origin of the understanding what narcissism is. But it's a pretty big deal.

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And I think it's another, like you're talking about the fruit of it. It's a fruit of the

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Idle Up Pride. This, you know, this wanting everything to,

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I mean, when you have yourself as the object of attention or the idol in your life, you are the God of your own life and you want worship to come your way.

27:09

And I think you see that in so many and so much of the American evangelical church. And it's based upon the way that the philosophy of ministry is in a lot of these churches, the way that these churches even architecturally constructed to where it's like all of, it's almost like a concert.

27:26

We were just actually at a Trump event and I was at a church and I'm like, man,

27:32

I have been in this church, but I haven't. It was a concert venue that I went to and they borrowed the architectural construction of the church from a concert venue to where it's all focused down on one individual.

27:43

You know, it's almost like the way that churches are constructed, the way that they go about what they do, it breeds into men and pastors narcissism because all the focuses on them, they present their role as the pastor as being more important than any other role.

28:03

It's an important role. They think that they are worthy of more consideration, more worship, more attention because of their particular role.

28:12

And it's just like a breeding ground for narcissism. And I think it's because they've placed themselves on the throne and not the

28:19

Lord. I've always kind of felt that way and I don't want to speak generally about everyone.

28:25

Yeah, I don't want to do that either. But like, I'm specifically thinking of, it's always bothered me, like if someone has a ministry and it's like,

28:32

Zach Morgan Ministries, you know, like they put their name, you know, like Kenneth Copeland ministry, you know, it's like, so, you know, like I said,

28:40

I don't want to speak broadly and accuse everyone of being, you know, narcissists, a narcissist.

28:47

I couldn't say the word there, sorry. You know, but like, I think a lot of times you see that and you're like, why are you making this about you and your name?

28:56

Right? This is about Jesus, you know? You're exactly right. Yeah. Yeah, because it's not. I mean, John the

29:01

Baptist was the greatest man outside of Christ, right? So he was, the Bible says he was the greatest man on the earth.

29:08

He was a Baptist. Yeah, he was. That's true. Bada bing. Bada bing. I'll take a note of that. He was.

29:13

And what typified his greatness from God's perspective? Because this is the Holy Spirit saying, hey, the greatest man has ever walked the planet is

29:22

John the Baptist. Yeah. Outside, you know, sinful man. Right. Outside of Christ, of course. What typified him?

29:29

He was, he said, I want to increase or decrease so that Jesus would increase.

29:34

He had, he didn't care about the way he looked. He went around wearing camel's hair, eating locusts and honey.

29:42

It was, so he was, he presented himself, this greatest man who ever walked the planet in a very humble and lowly fashion, not winning, wanting any attention.

29:51

And even Jesus's disciples come to him to like bait him into some competition. Remember that part of scripture where they say, hey, don't you know that all of your disciples are going over to Jesus?

30:01

Yeah. You know, to even present some type of competition there. Right. That is super part and parcel to American evangelical ministry,

30:08

I'll tell you. You're wearing camel hair right now, aren't you? Oh, it's just a tank top. It's under them.

30:15

Well, yeah. And you know, Jesus asked him to baptize him and he's like, I'm not even fit to tie your sandals. Yeah, exactly.

30:22

That is the model of ministry. That's what as ministers, we should be looking to him to model ourselves after.

30:29

So when you're saying, hey, you know, whatever Creflo Dollar Ministries or anything, it's the wrong, because what you're doing is you're setting yourself up for worship.

30:40

So people would look to you. Oh, this is the man. It's just setting yourself up for pride.

30:47

And I really feel for these men. You know, I have a heart that they would be challenged and that they would change their ways and repent of this narcissism because it's so destructive.

30:56

I think somebody did a study and maybe I can get into this a little bit later. It said like 90 % of American evangelical churches are affected by narcissistic pastors.

31:05

And it's not good. I served under one. I wanna get too much into that, but it destroys the church.

31:12

It destroys the people of the church. It's a place of control. It's a place, I believe that God kind of writes

31:18

Ichabod over these places and says, I'm out of here. Because it just, as a man gets set in his ways.

31:24

Is that a horseman? Ichabod is, the glory has departed. That's the name of that horseman.

31:34

Is it? It is. What's that story? The Headless Horseman? Yeah. You know that one.

31:40

The pumpkin for a head. No, no, no, I know, but what is the movie? Oh, Sleepy Hollow. That's right. So if, what

31:46

I'm saying is that if these men aren't challenged in their idolatry, this idol of pride, it destroys lives.

31:53

It destroys their own ministry. And God says, I don't have nothing to do with it. And they're slow sinking ships.

31:59

And as they sink away into dissolution, eventually, in their wake are these sheep that are not fed and not led the way that they should.

32:10

So that's a huge fruit of the idolatry of pride. Another benefit of having a plurality of elders,

32:17

I believe, too. That's what I was gonna say. Because you need faithful people around you to be able to point out things.

32:25

And faithful are the wounds of a friend, right? Than the kisses from an enemy. So because we're all prone to pride.

32:32

All of us are in some, maybe some more than others, but all of us are prone.

32:37

We're all gonna lean towards self -preservation, self -exaltation, justifying our own sins.

32:46

So we need other Christians around us to faithfully and hopefully humbly point out where we're falling short.

32:53

And we need to be able to, but with the Lord's help, receive that humbly and kill sin and kill that pride.

33:04

But when you got somebody that's a pastor or anybody else up on this pedestal and they can't receive any type of correction at all, then that just leads to more and more pride and you become more far away from humility.

33:22

Compounds the issue. Exactly. Whether you're a pastor or not, or you're like me, a mom at home,

33:29

I need people in my life to be able to call me out too because it actually starts in the home.

33:36

I mean, imagine if with your spouse, you got over your pride and you're the first one to say sorry.

33:44

What would that little, just that alone do? And what would that teach your kids to lay down your own pride first?

33:51

How would that help build up the church? And modeling that for our families.

33:57

Yeah, I think the root of most conflict is pride. When you boil it down to the heart issue, it's just pride.

34:05

Yeah, I want what I think to rule. I wanna win the argument.

34:11

I want what I want over what you want. It's just all centered on self. I'm right and I'd rather, you're exactly right, especially in marital conflict.

34:22

I'm not gonna tell you I'm sorry. I'm not gonna admit where I'm wrong because I'm holding onto my pride.

34:27

Right, I'm justified in this area. Yeah, if I admit that I'm wrong, it's gonna diminish who I think

34:32

I need to be, how I need to be seen in your eyes or wherever it may be. So many, and so many men locked in that, in pride, enslaved to that pride.

34:41

If they keep themselves inoculated from accountability or from any type of correction, then again, it's just, they fall, they just fall farther and farther down that rabbit hole.

34:53

Right, and it's so contrary to what the culture around us is promoting because it's all you do you, exalt yourself, just be happy, it's all self -focus, you make yourself the primary, the most important thing, your comfort, your own pride, your own happiness.

35:09

And so we're getting it from all over to be like, be prideful,

35:14

I mean, pride. Gay pride, it's everywhere. Yeah, so it's so contrary. That's not something to be proud of. No, I mean, it's contrary to what

35:21

God's word tells us, pride comes before destruction, it's the opposite.

35:30

Yeah, it's absolutely antithetical of really the Christian life or how the Christian life should be led.

35:36

We are to become, like Jesus said, the greatest among you is gonna be your servant.

35:44

That's how he deems greatness, not that you would exalt yourself. If you exalt yourself,

35:50

I'm gonna humble you. But if you humble yourself, I'm gonna exalt you, not in a way the world exalts people, but I wanna let you be seen so that you would be an example to those around you, right?

35:59

It's the self, not the self -promotion, but the self -abasement that needs to happen within our lives.

36:08

And again, I think so many Christians deal with that is because they do worship in houses of worship that their philosophy of ministry, what they do is centered on one person or centered on the elite people.

36:21

And only those people, they're the big superhero Christians. They do all the work in ministry.

36:26

We just come and kind of throw our money in so they could do what they do. So that's the philosophy of ministry. It's church government, like you guys have been talking about, pyramid style.

36:34

One man rules as an emperor. He's aloof, he's untouchable. You only kind of see him as he swoops in to preach and out and the rest of the week he's doing

36:42

God knows what, reading his Bible or golfing. So it's church government, it's philosophy of ministry, and it's just the overall construction of the church, the

36:52

American Evangelical Church. And if they have those aberrant, unbiblical kind of definitions of those categories, then it leads to that.

37:03

And so the people of God see that, and that's where I think that they begin to deal with pride themselves. Right. Well, I think even with the plurality of elders, it's important, like that can still happen.

37:13

Right. And I mean, I've been in churches like that where there was the main elder and then there was a bunch of yes -men elders.

37:21

You know, and so that's what I love about our elder board is none of us are above one another.

37:28

Right. You know, there's times where we have to say, you know, I disagree with that and we talk about it and so we're all accountable to one another and that's how it should be because then you prevent that from happening.

37:41

So yeah, I mean, I'm thinking of Nebuchadnezzar, right? He's a perfect example of someone who, you know, said, look at the kingdom

37:49

I've built. Right. Look at this, look at what I've done, and then just like that, God struck him down like a cow, you know?

37:56

Right. And so I actually, I've talked a lot about this just recently, but I pray for our president a lot, because I think he's,

38:10

I feel sometimes like he is like Nebuchadnezzar, like look at this great thing that I've done. It's the best. It's huge.

38:16

It's huge, yeah, you know, and like I always pray for him because I'm like, there's moments where you're like, man, he sounds like a

38:21

Christian and then there's moments where you're like, he is just full of himself. Right. You know, and so like, even like this year, 2020,

38:27

I'm like, man, maybe this is Trump's Nebuchadnezzar moment where God says, hey, it's not you, so knock it off, you know what

38:34

I mean? So yeah, I don't know where I'm going with that, but. No, I think it's a good example, you know, of a guy who has all these incredible giftings, and he does, and look what he's done.

38:44

I mean, it's undeniable. I mean, I know we questioned that in 2016, but his track record, his business mind, he's done a lot of good, but you do see extremely massive narcissistic tendencies within him.

38:56

I think he's a sweetheart to the people around him. That's what I've heard, and I think that that's not, you know, that's not what narcissists do.

39:03

You know, they kind of treat people less than themselves. They put people in categories of importance. You know,

39:09

I'm only gonna associate with the important people, and everybody else is just kind of the riffraff that I don't, and I don't believe that he does that, but I think what you're getting to is unless that goes checked, unless that goes checked, you're heading towards God's humbling of you, which is a good thing, because ultimately, your soul's more important than anything in life, but, you know, we don't, you know, when we talk about narcissism in the pulpit, it's not just pointing your finger.

39:34

It's trying to expose a serious issue, and I think at the root of it just goes along with this. It's the worship of self.

39:40

It's the idol of pride. That has a devastating effect on that individual, whoever has it, a pastor, whoever it may be, and it's devastating to the people that are under him, right, so I've been doing a lot of posts on Facebook because I believe that people should not be under that type of leader.

39:57

That type of leader is antithetical, as just like we've been explaining John the Baptist and the biblical picture of what a man of God should be.

40:06

You know, they should not be under that type of leader. I actually had a guy call me, or send me a message that said, my pastor,

40:12

I think he's a narcissist, and so he, I said, okay, let's talk about it, and he gave me this example of what was going on, and I say, you know, and I really think that you're right.

40:21

The things that he's done really lend to that. I say, what you should do in love, which I wish

40:26

I would have done to the man I was under, is you lovingly confront him respectfully. You know, say, hey, look,

40:31

I love you. I don't do this to tear you down. I care about the flock. I care about you, but there are some things in your life that are not repentant of, that are not going, checked, or changed, and I said, be careful, because when you expose this, there's gonna be two reactions.

40:48

He's gonna, you know, he's gonna treat you like the enemy, and he's gonna protect himself from repentance and change, or he'll break, and so he writes him a letter, and what

40:58

I told the guy, I was like, you know what, take your time, add scripture, make sure you're doing this correctly. This is an accusation towards an elder.

41:04

You wanna do this the correct way. He writes it in like an hour or something. I'm like, okay, slow down a little bit.

41:10

Let's take a little bit more time, and then he adjusts the letter, talks to his pastor, and his pastor repents, which is awesome.

41:19

I didn't expect it. I thought I would get, oh, man, he's treating me like I'm the enemy. This is not going good, you know, which is typically, unfortunately, what will happen, but the guy breaks down and says, you're right,

41:31

I'm convicted, and the only way I can prove it is if I repent, and that's good.

41:36

What did he do in that instance? He tore down the idol of pride within his own. He humbled himself, took input as aligned with scripture, and changed, and that's what we wanna see.

41:48

Right, that's what we pray in ourselves. Exactly, for the benefit of him as he stands before God, because we're gonna be held to a higher account, a stricter judgment, and most importantly, for the benefit of those under his care.

41:58

The sheep must be led by humble, godly, self -abasing men who are willing to do, who are willing to become the lowest, because that's exactly what

42:10

Jesus did. He'd wash those disciples' grimy, old, caca -covered feet, and said, let me teach you what true leadership is about.

42:18

That's right. You know what will humble you is going through the YouTube comments. Don't do it. No, but,

42:24

I mean, the point of our show is not to be like, hey, we are doing this perfectly. Look at how eloquent we are.

42:31

That's definitely not the case. Yeah, the point of our show is for you, listener, to be emboldened and provoked to go out and share the gospel, to tear down idols, to go save babies.

42:44

We're saying, hey, if us dum -dums can do it, you can do it. So, I read some of the comments on YouTube.

42:52

They're all over from, like, you guys are too nice to you're too mean, and then the earth is flat.

43:00

You know, they're all over. Yeah, that's always a good one. We do wanna be able to take criticism and input humbly and not just always be defensive, so.

43:11

No, that's important. Yeah, and I think that's the overall goal is to come alongside the church, help, to assist, to be just a couple, like you said, ordinary folks that God uses to stimulate people to action.

43:24

And I think, in talking about the overall mission of our show when it comes to the idol of pride, how does pride keep you from saving babies?

43:33

I think it's really, it's right alongside comfort. Yeah. But you set yourself up because you think you're so important,

43:45

I think, in this kind of idol of pride, that you don't lower yourself to do things.

43:50

Right. So, the idol of pride elevates you to a position that you shouldn't be in. Right. That's a good point. You sit on a throne that you shouldn't, you have no business sitting on.

44:00

And if you take that seat, then everything flows out of it, your self -perspective, your mission, everything flows through that.

44:05

And so, you won't humble yourself to do these things that we are called to do, this grimy, grunt, in the field work of preaching the gospel.

44:13

Yeah. That costs you. That's not comfortable. Right. That's not, you don't get the fanfare there.

44:19

You don't get the accolades out there. You get the exact opposite. I talked with a homosexual woman that was just inches from beating on me.

44:26

She was big, too. It almost happened today. Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah, she was, she went off, and she said,

44:32

I'm here to pick up my wife, and, you know, I love you guys. God bless you, what you're doing, but I'm here to pick my wife.

44:37

And I said, ma 'am, are you, you're homosexual? And she said, and she just went off on me. I said, no, the homosexual will not inherit the kingdom of God.

44:44

Please turn from this. And she almost went fisticuffs with me. So, what I'm trying to say is, again, if we set ourselves up on this throne and put ourselves in a category to where we don't do stuff like that, it's not gonna be done.

44:57

We have to humble ourselves. Yeah, I was just thinking, you know this, there's like three things we look for in men that we wanna intentionally pour into and raise up, and two of them have to do with a lack of pride.

45:09

One of them is I wanna know that they're scared to death to step into the pulpit, right? And the second thing is, like, just what you were saying, like,

45:16

I wanna see that they take initiative, they're not afraid to get their hands dirty and to do the work, like you mentioned,

45:23

I think, the last show, after church, cleaning up, for example, like, I don't have to ask them to help, they're already doing something, or they're asking for things to do.

45:32

And so, yeah, a good leader, a good pastor is one that's not afraid to humble themselves.

45:41

Yeah, so. Yeah, that's, I mean, humility is the pastorate. Right. You can't be, it'd be like a baseball player who doesn't have the ability to catch or hit a ball.

45:49

Right. You know, it has to be in there. And it's just so, and again, it's within the broader

45:55

American Evangelical Church, the way that it's structured can suck it out of you. Because, and I was there,

46:01

I think initially, I was like, I just want people to listen to me and I wanna be the man. And I was so attracted to the type, what

46:07

I thought church was and what I thought spiritual leadership was, was, you know, getting my bottom kissed every night and, you know, or every time or every day, whatever

46:15

I mean, it's just a role to where I receive praise. It's whatever the flesh, it's so much what the flesh wants.

46:21

You know, it's just self -exaltation and the accolades of people and praise. And, you know, we just crave that now, flesh, but that is not where it's at.

46:31

You know. I was thinking about how going back to the covenanters, 18 ,000 of them were persecuted within that framework of time.

46:40

There was never, ever any type of historical record of them begging for their lives. Remember when they go up to the gallows, they have no historical record of any of them just recanting.

46:49

Wow. And it was horrible because they were about to get hung. They had just come from the toll booth there where their, you know, legs are crushed to a pulp or their fingers are crushed to a pulp.

46:57

I mean, pain and torture. Like we can't even fathom. I don't even know how they lived. They would be out in the covenanters prison out naked in elements.

47:05

We were there in March, freezing cold, wet. And these poor Christians were out there.

47:11

They got four ounces of bread a day, I think. In some ways, I am. Yeah, and water. And they would not recant.

47:18

They would not turn. But many of them in their writings, as I read all about them all the time, they say,

47:23

I have no fear of death, but I have fear every single time I enter the pulpit. They do.

47:29

Just like what you said right here. You gotta be, you have to be humbled. You have to be afraid and reverential in that aspect.

47:37

You know, that they were courageous. And see, what I'm trying to get to is they didn't have this fear of death, but they had this proper estimation of themselves in light of their duty before God.

47:47

This humble estimation. That's what leads to fear in the pulpit. You know, how can I take this up?

47:53

How can I handle God's word? If we ever get to the place like, I mean, only I can do this.

47:59

I'm the only one that could be up here. And if anybody else takes the pulpit, they're just not doing it right. That's when, and so many guys get locked in that way of thinking.

48:07

Yeah, we could, hopefully we didn't come off course too much, but this has been a good episode.

48:13

I think you really, again, like we had talked about in evaluating your life, if you're worshiping the idol of comfort, the idol of pride is, you know, what do you think about yourself?

48:23

Yeah. You know, are you putting people into categories of lesser and greater, you know, based upon their gifting or their callings?

48:31

I think these are indicators that you could be, you can have this idol erected in your life.

48:36

You know, do you, are you a dad at home that treats your home like your own little empire to where everybody serves your needs?

48:46

Of course, you're the head of your home, but have you lifted up yourself and elevated yourself in such a way that you treat your wife and your children like they're just simple, you know, pawns for your own comfort?

48:57

Right. That can be an idol of pride. Yeah. Right, do you associate with people that you've, that nobody else wants to associate or only you, your friends, friends are in communication with the better people, the elite people.

49:11

Yeah. That could be an indicator that that idol of pride is set up. So can

49:16

I share one more connected story? And then we'll run out of time. I didn't mean to call you guys dumb -dumbs either. I was talking about myself.

49:23

Oh, no, I know. I said us dumb -dumbs, and then I was like, oh, wait, no. We both agree. Yeah, we're like, yeah. You guys are,

49:29

I was talking about me, but I'm like, I just called my pastors dumb -dumbs. Sorry. We are. No, you're not. So this was another story that's one of my favorites that's even hard to tell.

49:41

So there was, so basically the

49:46

Covenanters were literally like having to meet in secret in fields because they would be put to death if they got caught going to church, basically.

49:56

And so there was two sisters that got caught.

50:03

One was 16, one was 13. And they got caught, and they were coming to arrest them.

50:11

And so the dad sent them to some old lady's house that was giving them safe passage or whatever, she was protecting them.

50:20

Well, anyways, they found out where they were at. They came, they still got arrested. And so this man's two daughters are in jail, 16 and 13, for going to church.

50:34

And the farmer, he was a farmer. He sold his farm, everything he had to try to buy them out.

50:42

And so he went to the jail. He said, here's everything I have. And they said, that's enough for one of them.

50:49

So he had to go to his daughters and say, I only have enough for one of them. So the oldest that was 16 said, take my sister.

50:55

And she stayed, and she knew she was gonna be put to death. So, and then the way they ended up, she ended up dying was they took, this is what they would do.

51:05

They would tie him to a stake in low tide. And so they put the old lady out first.

51:13

And as the tide was coming in, and then she was like starting to get closer and closer and she's starting to drown and stuff.

51:20

And then they had the 16 year old tied up further in to shore. And so they said,

51:27

I forget what they asked her, but essentially her reply was all I, talking about the old lady, she's all

51:32

I see is Jesus. So the old lady drowns, and the tide keeps coming and coming in and it got to her.

51:40

And they ended up shooting her, right? No, no, they ended up begging her to recant. That's what it was, yeah.

51:45

Begging and begging and begging her to recant because they saw Martha, and her name was Martha too.

51:50

That's right. And then the younger sister who was, I can't remember her name was Alyssa Milano or something. I don't think.

51:56

That was definitely. But anyway, they're just like, they see her, you see this old woman expire, how atrocious that was.

52:07

And then all of a sudden, it's almost like at the end of Braveheart. Remember at the end of Braveheart, they like disembowel him. And then everybody goes, recant, recant, recant, because of how crazy that was.

52:16

They were doing the same thing. And then they get up in her face and then she just slowly slips in the water.

52:22

She said something pretty profound at that moment. Like how could I ever deny Jesus? And yeah.

52:29

Anyways, yeah, that one hit me pretty hard. I have two daughters. So it was just like, man,

52:35

I can't imagine. Yeah, it just goes to show you the faith of these covenanters. I mean, yeah, we disagree in a lot of their theology, but their courage and their example that they've given the church, the example of just fierce humility and fierce loyalty is just,

52:51

I don't know. I'm just, I love it. Every time I even think about it, it just emboldens my faith, but it also gets me thinking, man, we don't go through nothing.

52:59

Persecution, I mean. We're pansies compared to them. I haven't signed anything in blood yet, so.

53:05

Yeah, that's what the scriptures say. Today's the day. Today's the day. Give me something. Time to bleed.

53:11

The scriptures say we haven't even resisted to the point of blood. I mean, look at us and our comforts. I know. We have nothing to be afraid of, but they're an example.

53:20

And like we talked about in our show, they're an example of what you do to idols. They didn't put up with that.

53:25

And I think that is just another awesome example of their Christianity, of just the, how can

53:34

I put it? Just the solidness of their Christianity. Just the authenticity of it, the genuineness of that.

53:41

So yeah. And it's something that we're always doing. We're always erecting these idols, and so it is important to talk about it because we're constantly erecting idols, so we need to be putting them to death and talking about this and exposing it.

53:55

And it's not something we like to talk about because obviously we have to look within, you know?

54:00

It's not comfortable. Yeah, we hate talking about it because the objects or the things in our life that we feel as though give us the most amount of joy.

54:09

You think about porn. Porn is idolatry, you know? It's like, oh man, I can find so much pleasure, even though it's temporal and very costly pleasure, so we hide it.

54:18

And that's what we have to do as Christians. We don't hide it. You get these things out in the open because they are a cancer to you.

54:25

You think that they give you pleasure, and they do. Of course they do. Any idol that you set your heart on will give you some momentary fleshly pleasure, but the cost of it is so great.

54:35

Because again, and like Pastor Sumter says, it doesn't, we think that it only, you know, it's not hurting anybody.

54:41

You hear that all the time. Even if you confront somebody with their homosexuality, pleading with them to turn, hey, I'm not hurting anybody.

54:47

No, it bleeds out. It affects you, it affects your life, your family, it affects our nation, it affects the church.

54:53

It affects everything. That's why we gotta kill it. That's why we have to be about this task of exposing these things and killing them.

55:02

Totally, do you wanna hear something interesting? Now I can't remember his name, but he was speaking at OSA last night, and he was saying that.

55:09

Jason Storm. Was it Jason Storm? Yeah, I think it was. Pornography and Roe v.

55:15

Wade became like legal the very same year. Like, that's not a coincidence, you know?

55:21

And look how much pornography feeds into abortion, the denigration of women, the promotion of, you know, fornication, and yeah.

55:31

So I just thought that was interesting. It bleeds and it causes, sin begets more and more sin.

55:37

Yeah, which leads to death, you're right. And then, yeah, that's what we kinda talk to people that we counsel too, is that we have to put it in our minds that when

55:46

I'm looking at this, even though I'm receiving someones of satisfaction, what

55:51

I'm supporting in it is, again, it's sex trafficking, it's abortion, it affects everything.

55:59

So I hope you guys enjoyed our show today. We had the man on, I think he's awesome. All the time.

56:05

You're awesome. One of our best buddies, our big brother from another mother. Pal, amigo. Yeah. I appreciate you, dude.

56:12

How tall are you? Six four. Six four, wow. Did you shrink an inch? I thought you were six foot five.

56:17

No. And you're the shorty of your family, huh? Just a way down the shorty, yeah. Yeah. I have a brother that's six eight, and one that's six ten, and my dad's six seven.

56:24

I remember I saw your dad at Evie's birthday party, and he was kind of like laying on the ground watching a movie with the girls, and it's like his body took up the length of the entire room.

56:36

Luke's dad. How tall is your dad? Six seven. I just saw him, I'm like, that's gotta be Pastor Luke's dad. Yeah. He's the tiny one.

56:43

My sister's six foot, so. Wow, gosh, that's cool. Being five too, I'm always like, must be awesome to be that tall.

56:51

Yeah, it has its advantages, but there's disadvantages too, so. Yeah. Like I'm always hitting my head on something.

56:57

Planes were not made for you to be comfortable for men over six foot. Really? Six foot one, yeah.

57:03

All right, guys, well, we hope you enjoyed the show. We hope it was a benefit to you. If we can help you, let us know.

57:10

Like little sissy said, go to our Facebook, like us. If, again, this show glorifies

57:16

God and you feel as though it helps you and the church to better glorify him and serve him, we would ask that you'd share it.

57:22

Support Apologia Church. Go to apologiastudios .com. It was, you pronounced it. Become a, Apolo, Apologia. Go to.

57:29

Apologia. Apologia. Or Apologia. Become an All Access member so we can continue to do what we do, and all we wanna do is give all the glory and the praise to Jesus alone.

57:40

Obey his word, expand the kingdom, and do that to the day that we croak. That's right. Even if we have to die out in a ocean.

57:49

On a stake in the ocean. On a stake in the water, which would be no bueno. Love you guys. We'll see you next time.