WWUTT 545 Q&A Transubstantiation Translation Trinitarian Transmission?

WWUTT Podcast

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:01

Does the Eastern Orthodox Church believe in transubstantiation like the Catholic Church does?

00:06

Is the King James only movement a lie? And how do we know when we hear from God? God, the answers to these questions and others when we understand the text.

00:24

Many of the Bible stories and verses we think we know, we don't. When we understand the text is an online ministry devoted to sound doctrine.

00:32

Find all of our free videos and other resources at our website, www .tt .com.

00:39

Now here's your host, Pastor Gabe. Thank you, my dear. You're welcome. Hey, getting started,

00:44

I think you had a question that you wanted to present first of all today, didn't you? Are we going to start with a question that you received on Twitter?

00:51

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I told him to email you though. I didn't get it. So millennial

00:58

Puritan, I think I can remember it. You want me to give it a shot or are you going to try to actually look it up? I'm going to look it up.

01:04

But you keep going. In the meantime, I'll plug our Twitters. Pastor underscore

01:09

Gabe, that's my account. Becky's is Becky Hughes, but Becky is spelled

01:14

B -E -K -I. Don't try to spell it the traditional way because people don't know how to spell it, because Becky likes to be unique. I do.

01:20

Becky Hughes and Pastor underscore Gabe. I liked the days when those were called handles.

01:26

Now they're called usernames. It used to be called a handle. It's not called a handle anymore? No, nobody calls it a handle.

01:32

You say handle, nobody knows what you're talking about. You have to say username. Yep. Handle is now an archaic word in the tech world.

01:40

Nobody has a handle anymore. I'm going to be left in the dust no matter what I try. What I try to use or say, it's going to be something outdated.

01:50

If you want to send a question to us, since we respond to questions from listeners on Friday, our email address is whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

01:57

I've got five questions. I think I'm going to get to all of these today. One of them is a criticism. I'm going to respond to this critic.

02:04

Then there's two about King James only -ism and two about visions and voices from God.

02:11

Sorry, I'm still looking. I'm still not able to find it. I'm getting closer. Okay, what else can

02:17

I plug here? Did I say the email address? Whenweunderstandthetext? Facebook. Facebook .com

02:23

slash whatvideos, W -W -U -T -T videos. Actually those videos get posted to Twitter first before they go anywhere else.

02:34

If you really want to be up on the game, you got to follow the what Twitter account, which is whatcom,

02:41

W -W -U -T -T -com. Actually the best way is just to follow us on YouTube, youtube .com

02:47

slash W -W -U -T -T. Then as soon as a

02:53

YouTube video gets uploaded, you get a notice that a new what video is available.

02:58

I am behind right now. I've had several I've wanted to get done in the month of October. I've only done one this month so far.

03:05

Another one is coming hopefully today or Saturday, but again, youtube .com

03:11

slash what or the Facebook page or Twitter, they'll be posted on there as well. I am eating up a lot of time here.

03:18

Are you done yet? I know. No. Okay, I can remember Millennial Puritan's question. Go for it. Go for it.

03:24

His question was. Oh, I found it. Okay. Oh goodness.

03:30

See, you wonder why there are outtakes at the conclusion of every

03:36

Friday program. It's because we do stuff like this. But all of this is staying. You don't even have to wait for the outtake at the very end.

03:43

This is going to stay here. Okay, Becky. What is Millennial Puritan's question? Oh goodness.

03:49

He has two of them. He says, well, he technically has three. Does anyone know how to get salsa out from between the keys on your keyboard?

03:58

So then. Okay, my answer to that one is no. Next question. Okay. So then I said, piano keyboard or computer keyboard.

04:04

And then he was a little confused and said, computer, do you even call it a keyboard on a piano?

04:10

And I said, electric keyboard piano. No. So the question for Gabe related to that was, is it a keyboard or a piano?

04:18

Isn't that right? Do you even call it a keyboard on a piano? Yes. The keys on a piano are called a keyboard, but digital piano is called a keyboard.

04:32

The real piano is called a piano, technically a forte piano.

04:38

And I am a piano puritan in that sense. So you don't call the keyboard a piano.

04:45

It is not a piano. It's a keyboard. Or you can call it a digital piano, but it is not a piano. But on the keyboard, you have the keyboard.

04:55

Yes. Keys on a board. Right. Okay. So that's what I was getting at, but I couldn't,

05:01

I mean, I guess I could have posted a GIF to explain what I was talking about, but I was trying to be thorough.

05:07

So then he says, do they even call that a piano? Smiley face.

05:13

So I said interchangeably, because then I looked up on a website. Like Musician's Friend, it'll say digital piano.

05:20

Yes. It says digital piano and then a controller keyboard on another one.

05:25

Yes. Controller keyboard. That's not quite the same as a digital piano, though. They will not make a controller keyboard the same way that they will make a hammer -graded keyboard.

05:36

Hammer -graded digital piano. Okay. Okay. So those tend to be more expensive because they're higher quality.

05:43

They will make the keys so that they have the hammer -graded feel of a real piano, whereas a controller keyboard does not.

05:50

Oh, okay. It doesn't have the weighted keys. It's spring -loaded. Okay. They don't invest as much into the weighted action of the keys as they do in an actual digital piano.

06:01

So you're paying for the name. No, you're paying. I'm just kidding. You're basically paying for all the science that went into trying to get those keys to feel like an actual weighted key.

06:12

I heard that took a lot. It takes a lot. And it used to be that when they were selling those keyboards, when they first came out with the hammer -graded keys, you could go into a music store and they would have a cross -section of the key to show you how they made it so that when you're pushing down on it, it has the real weight feel to it and it's not spring -loaded and popping back up because there's a spring underneath it.

06:33

Right. Anyway, this is not anywhere near theology questions of any kind.

06:38

But it was a formal inquest. It was. And many churches use them.

06:43

So there we go. This is very true. Well, bring ecclesiology into it a little bit. We have both.

06:49

We have the real piano, which I popped a string on last Sunday. No! Did you really? That was crazy. I did.

06:55

It was Sunday night. I was in nursery. No, you weren't there because you were ill. Sunday night. Yeah. So you didn't come to the

07:00

Sunday evening service. But it was down on B -flat. It was either B or B -flat.

07:06

I hit the note and you heard it go pong. And then every time I was hitting it, the hammer was striking the loose string and so it was rattling real bad.

07:14

At least it didn't fly out like that one time. Yeah, that happened to me once. That was crazy. I still have that string.

07:20

It almost hit our guitarist. It was hilarious. I mean, like, it was hilarious just because nobody was hurt. Yeah, right.

07:25

But it was hilarious. The guitarist saw it fly across the stage and he was like, that can't possibly have been a piano string.

07:34

Watch out for those things. Because it flew out of the piano, it did not make any, like, it did not affect the sound.

07:42

It didn't have the triple strike action anymore because I was only hitting two strings instead of three. But it wasn't rattling.

07:49

This time, the string didn't pop out. So it rattled. Oh, I bet that sounded awful. No, I had to cut the song short.

07:54

So I made it through the remainder of the verse and chorus and then we didn't go into the next verse and chorus. So, yeah.

08:00

Anyway, so that's the benefit of a keyboard is that doesn't happen, but we have the keyboard and the piano.

08:08

The reason why we have the keyboard is because that's our organ. So we play organ out of the keyboard now. But aren't those keys weighted?

08:14

Yeah, they are. Okay. They're hammered weighted. So it's not a keyboard. No, it is a keyboard. It's just not the controller keyboard like you were talking about.

08:23

And there are keyboards that are spring loaded. They're still called keyboards. They just don't have that real hammer effect to them.

08:31

Okay. So I guess I'm going to have to go to a musician's friend and hook around. It just depends.

08:37

Yeah. Depends on the kind of keyboard is really what it comes down to. All right. So let's actually get to our - Hopefully that answers your question.

08:43

I wasn't planning on spending eight minutes on that question, but - It took me forever to find it.

08:48

I'm so sorry. I suppose we spent the first four minutes talking about where we are on Twitter. And Facebook.

08:55

So this first question comes from Tony, and he's actually criticizing the what video on Eastern Orthodoxy.

09:03

He says, and I get a lot of criticisms from that, no one who is Eastern Orthodox agrees with that video.

09:11

So anyway, Tony says, I don't know if this has been told to you, but Orthodox don't believe in transubstantiation.

09:17

I make the connection in the video that the Eastern Orthodox Church practices transubstantiation just like the

09:22

Roman Catholic Church does. Okay. He says, you keep insisting that the Orthodox believe it, and something about re -sacrificing

09:29

Jesus. That's a different video, by the way. That's not the same video. Okay. You are like most internet

09:34

Calvinists, unable to understand that Catholics are not Orthodox. No, I very much understand that Catholics are not

09:41

Orthodox. So anyway, I responded to Tony, and I said that the

09:47

Orthodox do believe in transubstantiation. They believe that the bread or the

09:52

Eucharist becomes the actual flesh of Christ, and the cup becomes his actual blood.

10:00

It's just that you might define it differently than a Catholic does. For example, the Eastern Orthodox might say, and they're not all consistent, they're not all the same, but they might say, it's not the crucified

10:10

Christ that the Eucharist and the cup transforms into, it is the glorified

10:16

Christ. So it's after his resurrection, after his death and resurrection, that's what the

10:21

Eucharist transforms into. So it's not the flesh body of Christ, it's the glorified body of Christ.

10:28

And when I responded to him that way, he emailed me again and said that that has never been dogmatically accepted into Eastern Orthodox, to which

10:37

I said, yeah, and that's the answer I get every time I have a conversation about this with somebody who is

10:44

Eastern Orthodox. The response is always, well, that's not our dogma. Of course it's not your dogma.

10:50

There's no catechism, there's no council, there's nothing that their beliefs have been compiled into something that you can go to and point to and say, here, the

10:59

Eastern Orthodox Church believes this. But according to the tradition, since they're real big on tradition,

11:06

Eastern Orthodox believes that the tradition of the church is just as authoritative as the Bible. And again, they'll disagree with that because it's not accepted into dogma.

11:13

Right. But anyway, according to their tradition, this is from the Orthodox Confession of Faith, Peter Mogila in 1633 to 1647.

11:23

He wrote the following, fourthly, attention must be paid that the priest have at the time of consecration, the intention that the real substance of the bread and the substance of wine be transubstantiated into the real body and blood of Christ through the operation of the

11:40

Holy Spirit. He makes this invocation when he confects this mystery by praying and saying, send your

11:46

Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered and make this bread the precious body of your

11:52

Christ and that which is in the chalice, the precious blood of your Christ, changing them by your Holy Spirit.

11:59

Transubstantiation occurs immediately with these words and the bread is transubstantiated into the real body of Christ and the wine into the real blood of Christ with the visible appearances alone remaining.

12:12

That's from somebody who's Orthodox, who's writing that. So that's the Orthodox Church. Here's another one.

12:18

Orthodox Confession of Docethius in 1672. He is not present typically nor figuratively nor by super abundant grace as in other mysteries, nor by bare presence, as some of the fathers have said concerning baptism or by impenation, so that the divinity of the word is united to set forth bread of the

12:39

Eucharist. Hypostatically, as the followers of Luther most ignorantly and wretchedly suppose, but truly and really so that after the consecration of the bread and the wine, the bread is transmuted, transubstantiated, converted and transformed into the true body itself of the

12:57

Lord, which was born in Bethlehem of the ever virgin, was baptized in the Jordan, suffered, was buried, rose again, was received up, sits at the right hand of God, the

13:06

Father, and is to come again in the clouds of heaven. And the wine is converted and transubstantiated into the true blood itself of the

13:15

Lord, which as he hung upon the cross was poured out for the life of the world. So what you're saying is they need to go to their pastor and like really get to the bottom of this, of what their church believes.

13:26

Priest. Oh, priest. Yes. Oh, sorry. Priest or bishop. But anyway, so you heard it here from two different Orthodox theologians, one saying that it is transformed into the body and blood of Christ the same way that Roman Catholic would believe.

13:42

And the other saying that the Eucharist transforms into the body of the glorified Christ and the cup transforms into the blood that was spilled as he hung on the cross.

13:52

That's Eastern Orthodoxy. And you present that to somebody who is Orthodox and they say, no, no, no, because that's not dogmatically accepted.

14:01

And that's that's always their deferment. They don't ever have to admit to believing anything because they can always say that isn't our dogma, but it is the same doctrine.

14:13

It is transubstantiation. It is even you. That very word is even used. What's more concerning to me than whether or not the

14:23

Orthodox Church practices transubstantiation same way that the Catholic Church does, which is a problem, but even bigger than that is the

14:31

Orthodox Church's denial of the doctrine of justification by faith alone. That is the gospel.

14:37

Denying justification by faith alone is denying something essential to the faith. This is why

14:43

I say to anyone who is in the Eastern Orthodox Church, they should leave those who believe the doctrines that they believe and teach them according to Greek Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, even

14:53

Roman Catholicism, because both churches deny justification by faith alone. They are teaching something that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

15:01

And I made that comment to Tony, who sent that email as well. I said,

15:06

Tony, it's interesting to me that I I mentioned that the Orthodox Church denies justification by faith.

15:12

That's not the problem that you had. The problem is with the fact that I equated transubstantiation of the Eastern Orthodox Church with the way that it's practiced in Roman Catholicism.

15:20

So Eastern Orthodoxy is it teaches false doctrine. It is a denial of the gospel.

15:25

So next couple of questions have to do with King James only ism. Jason wrote in and said his King James is the

15:31

King James only movement, a false movement. Why are they so harsh against other translations?

15:37

Quick answer to this one. Yes, it is a false movement because they are claiming that the

15:43

King James Bible is the only divinely authorized English translation of the

15:49

Bible. So I'm going as far as saying it's the only divinely authorized translation of the Bible. So every other translation that comes about in the world must be translated from the

15:58

King James Bible. So that English Bible is the only translation that God has authorized.

16:05

That's a lie. So therefore, that entire movement, that entire doctrine and theology is false.

16:11

And I've told people, stay away from King James only churches. Do not go to a church and become a member of a church that says

16:19

KJV 1611 on their sign because they're a King James only church. There's your alarm again.

16:25

Did you do that last week? Two weeks in a row, young lady, that's two weeks.

16:32

So sorry. So anyway, but that cuts me off and keeps my answer short.

16:38

Yes, it is a false movement. So the next question, the alarms for it's my it's my beeper.

16:43

See, we're going to change this show for that. We'll change this show into like pardon the interruption on ESPN. Everybody has two minutes to respond and then there's an alarm that goes off and then you got to go to the next topic.

16:55

So then Jeff Gibson follows that one up. Hello, Pastor Gabe. Salutations to you and yours. I seem to remember that you had a what video on King James only ism.

17:04

But for the life of me, I can't find it. What have you done with it? That's a great way to word the question.

17:09

It is. I would like to I would like to view it again. Thank you. And thank you for your ministry. I has been a blessing to my wife and I.

17:17

Is that King James language? I oh, it has been OK. Well, he says, thank you for your ministry.

17:27

Oh, it's a typo. I has been a blessing to my wife and I. So I was trying to read it like, what have thou done with yet?

17:34

Anyway, that was too much. Sorry, that was a dumb moment.

17:40

Anyway, yes, I did take that video down. The reason was because I was going to replace it. One of the things

17:46

I did not like about that video, everything in it was true. Did not change my mind about any of that. What I what

17:52

I didn't like about it, though, is I made the comment about the King James Bible that it was a decent translation.

17:58

And I don't agree with that. It is a good translation. It's just that we actually have better translations now.

18:05

New American Standard Bible and the ESV in particular, better than the King James. I have been told, though,

18:11

I haven't investigated it closely enough to be able to know. But the Christian Standard Bible also would be in that in that vein, along with the

18:19

NASB and the ESV. I knew the Holman Christian Standard Bible is it was an OK translation.

18:25

I wasn't real crazy about it. So it's not really one of the ones that I recommend. But we do have better translations now and access to more manuscripts than those who translated the

18:34

King James Bible had. Furthermore, the the English of the King James Bible is dated and it's difficult to understand.

18:42

And every once in a while in our church, we'll have somebody that comes in who was raised King James, and they have never really been exposed to studying out of another translation until they come to our church.

18:54

And once they begin reading from either the ESV or the NASB, which is the two translations we use the most in our church, once they start reading from those translations, they realize,

19:04

I can understand this a lot better than I can than I can understand my King James Bible.

19:10

It's not until you get away from that and you read some of the more updated translations that you begin to notice the difference.

19:17

Right. It's quite a different field. Not shy away from the people who do enjoy

19:23

KJV. If somebody who's a pastor decides that he wants to preach from the

19:29

King James Bible, that's fine. And that's another reason why I took that video down, because I don't want anybody to think that you can't be preaching from the

19:36

King James Bible. That's OK. But if they say that it is the only

19:42

Bible that God has authorized, that's wrong. It's a lie. Right. And it causes division.

19:47

That is a divisive comment. It elevates to a fundamental level, something that is not a fundamental doctrine.

19:55

The translation of the Bible that you use is not a fundamental issue. Right. You can even use

20:00

NIV. I know it gets kind of a bad rap. It's still a good translation. There are certain translations.

20:05

I try to tell people not to use the new living translation being one of them. The Message Bible.

20:12

Becky was kind of mouthing it to me. She wasn't. You weren't positive on the title. I wasn't positive. Yeah. Which. Yeah, because it's not actually a translation.

20:20

It's Eugene Peterson's version of the Bible. Oh, right. That's I don't even think the message should be considered a translation.

20:27

So, yeah, but it is like it is. Yeah. People in public do.

20:32

Right. OK. And a lot of preachers use it. Really? Ridiculously number of preachers use it. Yeah. All basically, if if a pastor is seeker sensitive, if that church has that seeker sensitive approach, they're going to use the

20:44

Message Bible. I see that. I was critiquing a sermon from Rick Warren just recently. It's actually for the book that I'm working on.

20:51

But I man, half the references that he used were from the message. And the other half were from like four or five other translations.

20:59

That's what Warren does. But the translation he was using the most was the message. Heard a sermon from Bill Hybels just recently.

21:07

I want to say with the exception of the of the main reading that he did, which was like the

21:12

Good News Bible, the rest of his references were to the message. Somebody told me that Chuck Swindoll had moved to referencing the message.

21:21

Now, I don't know that that is true. So because I haven't done that investigation myself, but it was somebody who listened to Chuck Swindoll said, no, even

21:29

Swindoll is is using the message Bible and on and on it goes. Furtick, Stanley being

21:36

Andy Stanley. So what other translations are there that you try to avoid?

21:43

Trying to see what other ones I have over here. I don't know. It looks like most of those on my shelf are good. So I don't know what

21:51

I did with the one. Maybe they're over at the church. Jesus Calling, right? Jesus Calling by Sarah Young is not a good

22:00

Bible translation. Anyway, the so I hope that helps you out,

22:05

Jason and Jeff. If you prefer the King James, I would recommend using the new King James just because the language is a little bit easier.

22:14

Whenever John at our church, he likes to use the new King James Bible. And and I do occasionally as well.

22:20

This Bible that you moved out of your chair over here. That's a new King James Bible. That's a big Bible. Well, it's my

22:26

Reformation study Bible. Oh, OK. That was a gift. Somebody gave it to me in the new King James, although I would like a version in the

22:32

ESV as well. But anytime he reads from the new King James, whenever we're doing Bible study together,

22:38

I'm amazed at how close it is, honestly, with the ESV. So new King James Bible, that's a good one to use.

22:45

All right. Let's let's move on here. And the next question, this is from Darryl, and this is a different Darryl than last week.

22:53

So the Darryl last week was D -A -R -Y -L. This is D -A -R -L -R -E -L -L.

22:59

How was that again? I don't know. I might have. I might have put three R's in there. Hello, Pastor Gabe and Becky.

23:05

I'm emailing you a question in regards to your podcast on Tuesday. You were referencing Matthew 28 when it comes to talking to someone who is anti -Trinitarian.

23:13

My boss is very anti -Trinitarian, and we have friendly debates pretty often. When I asked him the question, who gave

23:19

Jesus the authority in heaven and on Earth, he responded with God. But it implies that at one point

23:25

Jesus did not have authority. Therefore, he is not God. I did not have a response to his answer and was hoping that you could help me.

23:32

Thank you. And God bless. Well, that sounds like a completely different problem than a person who is simply

23:38

Unitarian, who believes that God is one person. Oh, right.

23:43

Who or and they perhaps might be modalist that he manifests himself as a father or son or a

23:49

Holy Spirit. That doesn't sound like to be your boss's problem. It sounds like that he rejects the divinity of Christ.

23:55

And so that's a completely different problem. First, John two twenty two says, who is the liar?

24:00

But he who denies that Jesus is the Christ and Christ is referenced to the

24:06

Messiah, who is God. So calling Jesus Christ is not it.

24:11

I mean, it's calling him God. He is no less than God. When you refer to to Jesus as Christ.

24:17

So who is the liar? But he who denies that Jesus is the Christ. This is the Antichrist.

24:22

He who denies the father and the son. And I'm going to articulate that again, just in case

24:28

I said it wrong. So to call Jesus Christ is the same as calling him God.

24:34

To call him the son of God. You are calling him no less than God. Jesus reference to himself as the son of man is also a reference to his divinity.

24:42

Son of God, son of man is is basically to say that Jesus was very

24:47

God and very man. He is God incarnate. That is the reference to son of man. So you have the passage in Philippians chapter two, the hymn of Christ, in which

24:57

Paul says Christ was in the form of God, but did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.

25:05

But he emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men and being found in human form.

25:12

He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore, God is highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name so that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth.

25:27

And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God, the father.

25:34

John says the following first John chapter five. We know that the son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true and we are in him who is true in his son,

25:46

Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

25:52

And one more John chapter one, verse 18. No one has ever seen God, the only

25:58

God who is at the father's side, which would be the son he has made him known.

26:04

So Jesus is God, but he is submitted to the will of his father is talked about there in Philippians chapter two and has willingly submitted to the will of his father.

26:16

So the authority that he has has been granted to him by the father. And this is why we have a reference to Christ as being the firstborn in Colossians chapter one.

26:26

All things have been given to him by the father. So the authority that he has is by God, the father whom

26:33

Christ is willingly submitted to. So he is no less than God, but he has willfully submitted to the father's will, just as we as the church are supposed to submit to Christ because Christ is submitted to the father and has done all things to the glory of the father.

26:53

It was stated there in Philippians two eleven. So we likewise, as imitators of Christ, should do all things to the glory of God.

27:00

So anyway, I hope that that helps you out a little bit, Daryl. It sounds like the problem is less that he denies

27:06

Trinity, although that definitely is the situation. But it's not the same thing as when you would respond to somebody as Unitarian.

27:12

Sounds like he just straight up denies the divinity of Christ. So those are some of the passages to help you out.

27:17

First John five twenty, first John two twenty two. What else I read? John one eighteen.

27:23

And especially Philippians chapter two verses five through eleven. Daryl, I'm going to be sending you the book Divinity of Christ.

27:29

It is one of the essential doctrines books that I have put together. There's nine in that series.

27:35

I haven't gotten them all done yet. But Divinity of Christ is the first in that series. You can find it at our website,

27:42

W .W .U .T .T. dot com. Click on bookstore and those books are available for three dollars and twenty five cents.

27:47

I'm going to email Daryl, get his name and address, and I'll be sending that one to you for free. Everybody else, you got to go to the bookstore.

27:54

All right. Last question here. This one comes from Micah, dear Pastor Gabe and Becky.

28:00

My name is Micah. I'm emailing from the great state of Texas, specifically from Texas A &M

28:05

University, in parentheses. Whoop. I know you hear it often, but your podcast ministry is such a blessing and the foundation that you have in the word is a breath of fresh air in modern times.

28:18

We do receive it a lot, but I still appreciate it, Micah. We get hate mail, too. So it's always good to hear.

28:24

It's so nice to. It's good to hear the positive stuff. Yeah. Thank you. My question.

28:30

I am 20 years. I'm a 20 year old Christian reformed Baptist. And ever since arriving at college in fall 2016,

28:36

I have been increasingly exposed to and troubled by the beliefs of certain friends and individuals that I know who profess

28:42

Christianity. One common thread that I find in talking with these individuals is the practice of listening for God to respond in prayer.

28:50

Every time I try to dig deeper and ask them to expound, they respond with anything from, oh, it just takes practice to just beating around the bush once and for all.

29:01

Could you explain what people who hold these beliefs are looking for in a response from God and what their criteria are during prayer for validating a response?

29:11

I have included a helpful picture example below taken from the teaching documents of a disciple now weekend that I attended.

29:19

So basically, if we're supposed to be praying and waiting for God to listen or I'm sorry, if we're if we're praying and listening for God to respond to us in prayer, what is it that these individuals who believe that are looking for?

29:32

It's the very exact same thing that Sarah Young does with Jesus calling. And she details that how she would pray and wait for God to respond.

29:40

And she wrote down what she would hear. And so those are the words of Jesus calling which have been revised.

29:47

So she claims that these are the words of Jesus. But there are revisions of that book, which is why I had to read so many different copies of it for this book

29:54

I was working on. So the if if the words had to be changed, they can't be the words of Christ.

30:02

It's not infallible. It's definitely not infallible. Yes. Which she admits to that. Anyway, we're not going to go into all of that.

30:09

No, but so here was the the the worksheet that Micah gave me here to kind of give me an example of the stuff that he was facing with this particular class, the disciple now weekend that he attended, asked

30:23

Jesus these questions and wait for his responses. Do you understand how

30:28

I feel about blank? So this is a question you're asking, Jesus, do you understand how

30:33

I feel, Jesus? She's got like a really quizzical look on her face.

30:41

I'm trying to keep from cracking up because you're asking God, do you understand how I feel?

30:47

Yeah, I thought he was all knowing. I mean, I get like he knows our hearts and everything.

30:52

There there should not be. I am he who understands mind and heart. And I get praying like David prays in the

31:00

Psalms. Like like you feel like you've been abandoned. You're wondering where God is. I understand praying that way.

31:06

But asking God, do you understand how I feel? Yeah, but with today's context attached to this,

31:12

I think feelings were filtering this through. Yes, right. I'm trying to filter it through sound doctrine instead of the feelings based up.

31:21

And yeah. Next question, when did you experience something like this? So you're asking

31:26

Jesus, when did you experience something like this? Oh, Jesus is not going to tell you that.

31:34

How do you know if Jesus experienced something like this? You read it in the Bible. You go to the

31:39

Gospels and you read it in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. That's how you know if Jesus experienced something like this or if he said something in response to what it is that you're going through, which even if you don't find it there in the

31:52

Gospels, it's in the rest of the Bible. I promise. Next question. What do you feel for me about the what do you feel for me about this?

32:01

What does that even mean? God, do you feel something for me about this?

32:10

Wow. So you're self -worshipping, but adding Jesus in the mix.

32:16

Well, I mean, yeah, it's totally feelings based. It's all based on experience, not based on the truth.

32:23

Like that is all about me. Right. It is. It's all about me. Yeah. Which is experience based.

32:29

So experience based is all self -centered. Oh, OK, got it. So, yeah. So we're on the same page, just two different ways.

32:36

So those were three questions that were a subset to that. That question. First one. Next one is thank

32:43

Jesus for being with you and providing understanding and care.

32:49

Now, if you're praying and asking Christ for wisdom to help with a particular situation,

32:55

I understand that. I understand asking for that request. That is a very valid request. But if you're asking for Jesus to speak something into your mind so that you hear his voice, that is something different.

33:08

Entirely. God communicates to you one way, and that is through the Bible. He does not communicate to you in prayer.

33:15

You communicate to God in prayer. He communicates to you through his word. Now he's communicating to you in prayer.

33:22

If what comes to your mind as you're praying to God is the scriptures, in which case that's the voice of God.

33:28

But it's from the Bible. It is not a thought that is being planted into your mind. This is

33:33

Jeremiah 17. The human heart is deceptively sick. Who can understand it?

33:40

And Proverbs three, five and six, Proverbs three, five and six. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.

33:48

In all your ways, acknowledge him and he will make straight your paths. So then the next next sort of instruction on this worksheet, if you did not hear anything from the

34:00

Lord, it could be because a you have not received the free gift of Jesus and surrendered your life to him.

34:07

And once again, that takes yeah, that takes salvation and makes it based on your feelings.

34:14

Do you feel saved? If you don't feel saved, then you're not saved. That is scary. That's the same same sort of concept that's being presented there.

34:22

And this is why we have altar calls. And it's why we have people that say the sinner's prayer like a dozen times, because they don't feel saved.

34:30

So maybe if I pray this again and I respond to this altar call again, I will finally feel the salvation that I've been expecting to feel all this time.

34:39

Oh, guys, the assurance of your salvation is not joy is not in heaven and heaven based treasures.

34:47

Yeah, you're not going to feel that joy. Right. And praying all this and focusing on all this, that you're not in heaven.

34:57

Yeah, right, right. You're just you're seeking treasure in your body instead of seeking treasure with the

35:02

Lord in heaven. That's absolutely right. People, I mean, I I kind of got on this bandwagon whenever I was.

35:10

Oh, man, I don't even know if the first copy, the first copy of Jesus Calling that we had was yours.

35:16

But it was a gift. I didn't buy it. Right. But so anyway, I kind of understand.

35:23

But to be the assurance, the assurance is not on the word of God. The assurance is based on the feelings that you have, which change in an instant.

35:31

Oh, my goodness. No joke. Like today you can wait to your you could be determined. Oh, my goodness.

35:37

Yeah. I love her. Dearly among our four children. Our two year old has the biggest mood swings.

35:43

She she's a mini of me. But you could you could have in your mind when you wake up in the morning, this positive affirmation,

35:51

I am determined that I'm going to be happy today. And then you stub your toe. All it takes is an off comment or something situational that you didn't plan on and your happiness is gone.

36:03

Happiness is cheap. You cannot base your salvation on the feelings that you have. Oh, no, it has to be rooted in the word of God.

36:10

And the way that you've one of the best lessons on finding assurance of salvation is in First John, just reading the book of First John and reading it over and over and over again.

36:22

Right. To those words are written on your heart and you can almost recite them by heart. This is how you will find your assurance of salvation.

36:29

As John says in First John five, we have written these things to you that you may know that you are saved, that you have salvation in Christ.

36:37

We have written these things. They're written down on the pages of Scripture. You do not have to go farther than that.

36:44

And you probably have at least three in your house. Three Bibles. Yes. Yeah, right. You can read somewhere.

36:50

Three of them. Yeah. Read that one, then go to that one and read it. And OK, as long as it's not as long as it's an appropriate and acceptable translation, this is very true.

37:01

So if you did not hear anything from the Lord, it could be because B being still and quiet before the

37:08

Lord is very hard for you. That's OK. It will just take more practice. Having more knowledge of God's word will help you in learning how to do this.

37:16

Hey, we're getting closer. Hey, that's a thought. Yeah. But it's saying that it has to be your feelings.

37:23

And oh, yeah, be sure you read your Bible, too. That's that's lesson B. That was after a you have not received the free gift of Jesus and surrendered your life to him.

37:32

Right. So that and that's why you're not hearing anything from the Lord. So so letter

37:39

A, we have our two year old letter B. We have our six year old. OK, yeah. Being still and quiet before the

37:45

Lord is very hard for you. Yes, that's hard for our six year old letter. See, you have unresolved anger in your heart.

37:53

When bitter, it is really hard to hear from the Lord. Challenge. Choose to forgive the one that you are angry with in the same way that Christ has forgiven you.

38:04

I don't totally disagree with that, but that's not the reason why you aren't hearing from God. Right.

38:10

The reason why you aren't hearing from God is because you're waiting for a voice to pop into your mind instead of going to the

38:15

Bible and reading it. That's why you're not hearing from the Lord. Oh, man. I mean, if you have unresolved hang, anger that you might need to go eat something if you're hangry, but if you have unresolved anger in your heart, it does hinder your relationship with God.

38:32

You don't. Oh, it does. You don't pray the same way. You're not reading the Bible. You are choosing to hold on to that anger and being selfish.

38:40

That's very selfish. It is it's vengeful and it's an attitude of vengeance.

38:45

It's hateful. And Jesus said in Matthew chapter five is the same as murdering a person in your heart.

38:51

And then in Matthew six, he says that if you do not forgive others, their sins, neither will your heavenly father forgive you your sins.

38:58

So you do not hold grudges with people that does hinder your relationship with God. But it's not the reason why

39:05

God is not speaking to your mind. So how do we hear from God? We hear from him in the word of Christ, where specifically, how do we hear from Jesus, the

39:17

Bible, Hebrews one long ago at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets.

39:23

But in these last days, he has spoken to us by his son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

39:32

I think another passage that speaks volumes to this is in Matthew 24, when Jesus said, if he said if someone says to you, look, there he is in the wilderness, do not go out where they say to you, look, here he is in the inner rooms, do not go to them for his lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the

39:50

West. So will be the coming of the son of man. So Christ is not manifesting himself in your mind, in dreams or visions or any of these other things.

39:57

He has spoken through the word of Christ. Romans 10, 17 says faith comes through hearing and hearing through the word of Christ.

40:04

Colossians 316. Let the word of Christ dwell in you, richly teaching and admonishing one another with all wisdom, singing songs and hymns and spiritual songs, making melody in your hearts to God.

40:18

This is all through the word of Christ written down for us in the Bible. That's how you hear from the Lord. As Justin Peters is popular for saying, if you want to hear from God, read the

40:28

Bible. If you want to hear him speak to you out loud, read the Bible out loud. So there you go,

40:35

Micah. And I hope that helps you to understand these things. So so the question that let me go back to the way that you worded the question specifically.

40:43

Well, first of all, you said once and for all, could you explain what people who hold these beliefs are looking for? Well, once and for all is there in Hebrews one.

40:52

I'm not settling the debate on that because, you know, it's going to go on as long as we are here on this earth.

40:59

There are people that are going to be raising a stink about that. Oh, yes. So what are they looking for in a response from God?

41:06

They're looking for their own thoughts to come to their mind in a way that is acceptable to them. That's what it is that they're looking for.

41:12

Give me the answer that I want to hear. And what criteria are they using during prayer for validating a response?

41:18

Their own thoughts, not the word of God. So this this is our authority. This is sola scriptura.

41:24

I mean, this is what many reformed churches this particular month approaching the 500th anniversary of the

41:30

Protestant Reformation in 1517, with Luther nailing his 95 thesis to the door of All Saints Church in Wittenberg, as we are talking about these things in the month of October and so many different reformed churches.

41:42

This is that first sola, that first essential principle on which the

41:47

Church of God was built. Sola scriptura, the word of God. That is our authority.

41:53

And what is the word of God? It is the Bible. So this is how God speaks to us.

41:58

And we submit to the authority of this, not our own minds, because really that's just our own authority.

42:05

We're just exalting ourselves to the place of God. We're saying that the thoughts that we have are God's thoughts.

42:11

They're just as good as something God would say to me here in the Bible. And sorry, that is not the case.

42:17

Right. That is, I know it's a pet peeve of yours to say sorry when you don't actually mean sorry. Yeah, that irks me.

42:24

You're not sorry. Sorry for you. Sorry for using the word sorry in that context. What is a good way for him to approach his friends?

42:35

With gentleness and respect. First Peter 3 .15. In your heart set apart,

42:41

Christ is holy, being ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within you. But doing this with gentleness and respect and even in Second Timothy chapter two,

42:52

Paul telling Timothy to correct opponents with gentleness. God's servant must not be quarrelsome.

42:59

So we don't come at somebody with it. It doesn't matter how right you are in the words that you're using. If you're coming at it with this attitude.

43:05

Or how silly you think it is. All right. Conviction received.

43:14

Yes, even I need to be a little bit more gentle in the ways that I approach this, and this is also that instruction that Paul gives in Romans 15, that we who are mature have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak.

43:26

That's right. And so that does mean at times you can't you can't be a know it all.

43:32

You can't be sarcastic. You can't be snide with your wit in a way that's going to put somebody down or make them feel bad because they believe a certain way.

43:41

Right. If you know this is true because of what the word of God says and somebody else has not come to that place in their maturity yet in their in their

43:49

Christian walk, you have an obligation to bear with their weaknesses. Right.

43:55

And that you're going to have to put aside, put aside, I don't know, prejudices, tendencies, know that you're going to help them and walk them to maturity.

44:05

I'm trying to avoid saying talk to them like a child. No, you're not.

44:10

You're talking to them like it's right. Sure. But it's I'm trying to be metaphorical, but not saying like,

44:17

OK, let me explain it to you again, you know, like you talk to them like they're ignorant. I'm just trying to use it as a metaphor without.

44:25

Well, I mean, how many times do we need instruction over and over and over again? Sure. Right. So, I mean, it's the same thing and it's going to be the same thing with them.

44:33

But just just gently. So it's like with a child, sometimes you have to instruct the child in words that they can understand.

44:41

Right. That's the way I'm trying to come at this with. Oh, not talking to them like they're using bad keywords when you talk to me.

44:47

Right. There you go. A .K .A. layman. OK, Pastor Gabe, you're not in the pulpit right now.

44:53

That's right. No, I don't have to remind you that very often. No, you don't. Hope that any of this has been helpful to any of those who have sent in questions.

45:01

This is the second week in a row. I think we've hit forty five minutes here. Oh, sorry, guys. I hope you enjoy it. I'm not meaning to go that long, but I hope it was edifying for you.

45:09

Thank you so much for listening in. Again, questions can be submitted to when we understand the text at Gmail dot com.

45:18

And I've given all the other information at the start of the program when we were trying to find millennial Puritans questions.

45:23

So we did six questions today, six questions in forty five minutes. Well, I know his name is Joshua, but he goes by millennial

45:29

Puritan. I'm trying to be respectful of the whole, you know, a non thing. Well, he has it in his like.

45:35

Oh, it's in his profile now. It was. I don't know if it still is. You can show me that later. OK. I don't have to look that up.

45:42

We're long on time. Let's pray and we'll be dismissed. I do that every time.

45:47

Every time I want to say, let's pray and you can go about your day. There you go.

45:54

Lord, we thank you for the gift of laughter and we thank you for the joy that has been given to us through Jesus Christ, our

46:00

Lord, who died for our sins, shedding his blood on the cross so that in Christ Jesus, we we may know that we have salvation.

46:09

It is not by a feeling that we have, but it is the truth that comes from your word.

46:16

It is a finished work that Christ has accomplished, so we don't rely on any of our works or our feelings, our physiology that day, we rely on what has been said in eternity past, what has been written down for our benefit and for your glory in the word of God, the

46:34

Bible. And so I pray that we continue to come back to this over and over again, submitting to the true words that are found here and that it is by this word that we lead and guide others.

46:46

It is by this word that we lead the lost into saving knowledge of Christ.

46:52

The gospel is found here. And so let us take the message of the gospel, the message of your word to the world so that those who have have ears will hear it and understand it, turn from their sin and worship

47:05

God and be saved. We pray that you continue to bless us in this month of remembrance that we remember 500 years of the

47:13

Protestant Reformation, those reformers who even laid down their lives for the for the sake of this word, that it would be proclaimed throughout all the nations in the world.

47:22

And let us be bold in proclaiming it, believing it and sharing it. In Jesus name we pray.

47:28

Amen. Amen. Did you get your giggles out?

48:37

Maybe. I can't read a script if there's no script. Because there's so many tears in my eyes.

48:44

Will that do? Pretty soon the mascara is going to start burning. Oh, yeah. I love it when the mascara burns.

48:51

Feel the mascara burn. Oh, the things we go through for beauty. Yeah, right.

48:59

Or to at least not look so tired. I'll let Peter Furler, former lead singer of the Newsboys, know he wore eyeliner for beauty.

49:06

Yes. I don't know why he did that. Honestly. Australian thing. New Zealand thing. Not sure.

49:12

No. John would paint his name. A Newsboys thing. Yeah, but that was John. Eh. Touché.

49:18

He also braided his hair. What hair? He had a lot. He had more than me.