Gary DeMar Said What?? | Discussion w/ Dr. Sam Frost & @answeringadventism

Hello and welcome to the apologetic dog where it's our heart's desire to contend for the faith

And so hopefully as you're starting to see the apologetic dog more and more you see that beard, right? That's a that's a beard letting you know that the dog means business and this got this dog is a guard dog

And so this really represents all Christians are supposed to guard the gospel of grace And so in the logo you kind of see first Timothy 6 verse 20 that says

Oh Timothy Guard the deposit that is entrusted to you avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called

Knowledge and so here at the apologetic dog That's our aim is to do apologetics to contend for the faith and we do that by exposing those worldviews that try to rival the knowledge of God and so We do that by standing on God's Word at every point in turn

And so before we dive in to our very special live episode, by the way

I have a few announcements that I just want to bring to your attention really exciting This coming

Monday just to just a few days away I will be participating in a debate at Donnie's channel at standing for truth.

I will be debating with Gavin James He represents the Church Christ.

And so we're going to be debating on the topic of justification And let me tell you it's either by faith alone or faith plus works

So you do not want to miss that. Like I said, that's coming up Monday in just a few days at 7 p .m.

It's standing for truth. Another announcement is I will be speaking at a conference in September on basically the whole theme of the conference is how should we live because Eschatology matters and so this is a long way away in time

So you'll be seeing this kind of advertised more and more and I'm really excited to be able to speak on the resurrection of the dead

We're gonna have many other guests Speakers there as well. And so I really look forward to being able to speak on this topic of eschatology.

I never really Was super passionate about eschatology. I thought you know,

I'm a hashtag pain meal It's all gonna pan out the way that God wants. I'm totally fine with you know, the the pre -tribulation rapture stuff big

John MacArthur fan and so I just was kind of coasting along and You just as God would have it me serving as a pastor

There then there was heresy starting to creep up in my hometown saying that Jesus already returned

Saying things like there's no resurrection of the dead in the way that we've been taught that we're gonna be received

Resurrected bodies fit for eternity. No that has something to do with Israel That's in the past at 7 a .d. And you know what

God's not going to restore all things And so as I started to hear all of these things,

I couldn't believe it I had to actually start taking eschatology serious and praise

God a lot of times That's how we see how he works throughout church history is the church unifies together to war against heresy

And so that heresy I'm talking about is called full preterism Hyper preterism and I've had guests on before to really go more in -depth about what that means

And so today I want to I have a couple guests Here in just a minute, but I want to talk about where a lot of this heresy spawns out of they will claim

Sola scriptura, we just want the Bible and the Bible alone and many of us are like that's actually not solo scriptura

That's something else when you try to divorce yourself from this historic faith And so I want to talk a little bit more about this principle but I have a couple guests that I want to introduce you all to and one is

Blank but that's okay. We're about to bring him here momentarily, but we got miles miles if you don't care

Introduce yourself and tell us about your ministry and how people can find you Yeah, I have a channel called answering

Adventism The stream tonight is obviously not specifically about Adventism but we may get into that a little bit seeing as there's a lot of similarities between what we're hearing from some of these folks and Not just Adventist but other restorationist movements

So if you're interested and you're a Christian want to learn more about Adventism how to reach Adventist with the gospel Check out the channel.

You can just YouTube answering Adventism. Thanks so much, sir.

All right. Oh Dr. Frost, where'd you come from? Well, I've been here

You're in that green room, weren't you? I Finally figured out

Well, hey you made it and you're a frequent guest on the apologetic dog

In fact, you are the one that I called I said, dr. Frost I've had people calling me trying to get me to buy this

This idea that Jesus isn't coming again, and I honestly didn't know what to do I was like in my heart of hearts and for what

I do know about Scripture this is attached to our blessed hope but I don't know how to speak the lingo and You were a guest on Eli Yala's channel probably over a year ago talking about this and so I started messaging you and you were very kind and you let me call you up and ask all my weird questions and you're like, hey,

I got your back and The more we started talking we were like, hey Why don't we do an episode on this and the more you and I talked about this and this relates back to miles

As a lot of this spawns out of a misunderstanding of what Sola Scriptura is, is that right?

Yeah, yeah, it does You know, you you've talked about that that restorationist

Barton Stone Campbell What was going on with all of that in the way they were utilizing

Quakers George Fox the same way a lot a lot of these groups were the same way kind of mystical groups movements

I just move German move German mystical movements Where was just you know, you did it was really anti -authoritarian to You know

Reformation was a reaction to authority hierarchy church, you know, all of that kind of stuff And so there were many that were going in in the direction.

We still see this particularly in America Where you just need inner light the

Bible and You know mystical contemplation and that kind of stuff and you you don't you don't need classical education or any of that kind of stuff

That's nothing new that this has been around Throughout church history have these little offshoot movement.

Yes before I kick it over miles I want to hear his side of things with how he studies the restoration movement and Any particular movements in particular within that but I want to remind our watching audience that if you have any questions for any of us about We're gonna be mainly focusing on full preterism and a lot of the recent events that have been transpiring over the past couple weeks

You may be new don't know what we're talking about. We but we have a lot of things to cover But send your questions in the comments

And we're gonna set aside some time at the end to talk about any good comments that we see or any questions that you may

Have and maybe you identify with this realized eschatology and don't know why it's bad and why it's wrong

And we'd love to speak to that if you have any questions and let me just say this We have dr. Frost in the building.

So you definitely this utilize this this time I don't go a lot a true live feed like miles does over there from time to time

So now is the time to do it, but miles I want to hear from you about why is solo scripture?

Important and what are some groups that really pray into twisting what solo scriptura means?

Yes, so Well, it's important because and Sam got to it a little bit there earlier I actually just engaged with a guy yesterday

Who was kind of having the same sort of I have the Holy Spirit within me. I just need that in the

Bible and This guy was also telling me that the King James Bible itself is ontologically the

Holy Spirit and so that's a perfect example for you of why a properly understanding solo scriptura matters because history gives us proper guardrails to navigate within So that we're not completely unhitched and derailed while at the same time representing the sole infallibility of Scripture But then not thinking because a lot of this

I think stems from the idea of thinking too highly of yourself in relation to those Who came before you thinking we're smarter than all the people that came before us they were either confused by Greek and pagan mythology or Insert whatever sort of thing and so I particularly deal with a lot of these restorationist groups

Specifically the Seventh Adventist because that's the tradition I was raised in and they essentially just have their own flavor of this where they just put their own veneer on it but they do use the terminology solo scriptura to try and pass off this same sort of idea of Well, we saw it with the

Sassanians. They're really just repackaging what the Sassanians were saying for those that don't know

Sassanians were Anti -reformation or a counter reformation movement to the Reformers who used some of these same things we hear from the restorationist groups like True Christianity went off the rails after the

Apostles and Greek and pagan mythology is what crept in sending the church apostate we just need to get back to just the bare text of Scripture and Every group that does this ends up in some sort of Christological heresy some

Some way or another at some point. Mm -hmm so You know, we're talking about Restorationist groups and I see someone in the comment shout out to blue light there.

They said grandma's Church grandma's Church and That's a reference to a video that I did in reference to the

Church of Christ So that is a restorationist group and they are unashamed to say, you know, basically no creed but Christ It's me my

Bible under a tree and it sounds pious until you start reading that Bible and you realize that Jesus said

I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail Against him and what he's getting at is his bride is going to be ever present.

He's not going to abandon his bride so when we look in church history, we should expect the true gospel to be present and Jesus promised the

Holy Spirit to guide his church into all truth And so point is solo scripture recognizes

Scripture as the ultimate authority That God has inspired that we test all things to but it's not going to be detached from history

I have to explain to many students that the Bible didn't just float on a cloud down to us

But God has spoke in time and in history and preserved his word to us And so there's a there's a rich history of them.

And so does that make sense? So we're trying to say solo scripture. The key word is

Infallibility, it's the sole infallible rule for our faith in practice, but that assumes that there's other roles

There's other standards that we can practically look to but it's gonna have to bend the knee to Scripture What do you what do you think?

Dr. Frost? Did I get that right? That's right what Miles will say You see this even in You know

God's dealing with Israel he's constantly reminding them of the past There's constant, you know recitals of the past.

How many times do you need to be told you? You know, I brought you out of Egypt. It's like, oh, okay.

I got that We need to be reminded of the past. I think this was God saying to them.

Don't forget your past That's who you are. That's that's I'm building something here and Israel would go off the rails.

They would go off into this these other nations or that's not their past It's the male worship was not who delivered them out of Egypt.

So they constantly need to be reminded Because we're just dull of hearing so it's very easy to to forget forget the past or to not

Associate with what we're doing today with in the present Is going to be built off of what is being done

What has been done in the past because God is a God of Providence. Hmm. He's doing something

He's building something and so with eschatology, you know, where are we going? see that that thought alone changed the cyclical idea of going into nowhere or going into some sort of a conflagration that will eventually

Burn out or maybe some eternal return kind of thing. There was all kinds of different Ways of viewing history, but Augustine viewed history linear in the sense that you know

God started had at the beginning and there's also an end and so there's a goal a teleology to be reached and That's eschatology.

That's that's the basic structure What eschatology is a few? So with preterism you remove that and throw it all into the past and then we have this wide open unknown future

Yeah, boy Would I would like for you to tell people a little bit about your past just briefly about where you've come from like Because I've had you on the the channel before and you've talked about that but if you would talk a little bit about your history in relation with full preterism and just kind of give people a

General idea of what that means maybe even what partial preterism means in relation to the term

We're gonna keep talking about full preterism Yeah You know

Bible college back in the late 80s early 90s Reading a lot of what you would call post -millennial partial preterist that kind of stuff

Where the focus is really on 70 AD largely reactionary to Dispensationalism, which is

I grew up in that in the four -square gospel church. I grew up remember Hal Lindsey and Watching the movie late great planet

Earth as a child You know, so that formed my mind. So in college at rightly so in college

You're exposed to all of these ideas of preterism was one of them and certainly post -millennialism

David Chilton Gary DeMar Ken Gentry and all of these guys James Jordan Lorraine Bettner.

I could go down the list And so in that but following preterism and having a dispensationalist background

It was very easy to make the connections that if all of this is fulfilled or if 90 % is fulfilled

But 10 % is easy to add to it. It's not that difficult The only thing you really got to get around is the creeds and I can just refer back to you know

Creeds and councils from may air so they really didn't know what they were talking about So we have kind of more insight today.

Here's your here's your progressive kind of thing going on We know more than what they did

I know more than what Ernest and Justin Marder I know more than they are I'm smarter I'm better.

You know, we're that's a progressivist kind of a Mentality frost but dr. Frost we don't need the creeds and confessions.

Just give me the they're talking about. Yeah It's that it it's it's strange because you know post -millennial

Partial Partial preterism was isn't is an intellectual they you study history Josephus you study all this

Roman Colts So you have to study all of this? And you're even looking at the translations, you know says into the age not into the world, you know

It's so the different you know, I own you make those kind of distinctions So on one hand it is doing that and yet on the other hand

It's it's assuming a progressive that we just simply know more that there's this development that's going on of doctrine so that we we made the

Holy Spirit may What once was foundational, you know a few hundred years ago or a thousand years ago may not be foundational anymore and so That's kind of going on there too because it's constantly stated by these fellows that nobody has done the work

No one's really exegete at first 1st Corinthians 15, that's just totally not true

Dr. Frost it's probably the one thoroughly exegetic Right, and I definitely want to get into 1st

Corinthians 15 and a little bit So full preterism is this eschatology that's new on the scene

And it kind of comes out of the restorationist movement a little bit further down the line that I want to get into But you come out of the movement full preterism

So this this has a lot you have your heart invested in this right? You've you've lived it. You've experienced it

You've taught on it. And so I feel like you have a lot to offer With how the full preterist thinks, right?

Oh, I get it. I I can I empathize with it It certainly empathize with that.

I know how people can can get there. It's not that difficult When you're looking at it totally from the outside having never really been into it

It's very difficult for people to say well, you know, this is the new heavens a new earth You gotta be kidding me. But when you you come at it in bits and pieces the way that I was coming into it

You've been it's just a step -by -step process and eventually you you get there So I was in it and being in seminary the way that I was associated with seminary

You know, I was one of the few ones in seminary if one of the only ones and so the next thing

I know is I'm my book misplaced hope was published by Tim and Max King and They were the guru one of the main gurus in the in the movement.

The next thing I know 2002 I'm being asked all around the country to come to these lectures and speak so it's it was kind of a

Thing, you know that I was brought into Totally unexpected but Yeah, I was in it.

I mean I was speaking with all of the major leaders and teachers and we were formulating ideas and dealing with it as how how to apply post 70

AD life and church and What we're supposed to be doing now

We had to wrestle with all of that and I had a good background in philosophy You know having a master's degree

We got a build Can we build a full Preterist worldview?

Right. Hey, and I do want to get more into how it is a worldview It's not just a spin -off within Christendom where we can just kind of talk about awesome differences

We can look at that a little differently No, you're you're talking about something all together brand new and you've been instrumental in helping me understand that and so real quick As I've got to know miles

It's funny because we you know our past couple episodes. We've talked about the supremacy of Scripture, right? Everything does derive from Scripture, but it's a part of a historic faith

And so as we were chatting about everything that's been going on over the past couple weeks You you seem to express to me how like flabbergasted you were with some of the things that you were hearing about that That's going on in the eschatology world

Well, so I've heard some of these people in the past before and Full Preterism is not something that until here more recently

I've really done deep dives on and so some of these individuals that I heard I I didn't know, you know

Is this person a faithful representative of this position? Is this person just some fringe whoever? And so I didn't really think a ton of it.

I kind of thought you know, that's a little wacky Just at the first hearing and so it just seems so contrary to everything

I've about the hope of the faith and the promises of God and those sorts of things and so when this stuff started buzzing around on the internet about Some individuals starting to flirt and toy with these ideas at least publicly

I started looking into it more and it's just yeah, it's like This is so bizarre to me this idea of like we're there we made it

Jesus doesn't have a physical He doesn't bear the scars anymore of the like those sorts of things are to me just immediately goes

This needs to be examined very very very very carefully With him saying that it's very good because he's coming at this

You know kind of kind of new and so for you know miles that's showing The utter contrast

And that's see that's the thing is that it's it's nothing you've ever heard before It's so contrasting but to those that have been in it for a long time.

They it's it's very they're very comfortable with it and but I like what he's saying because he's noting how contrastive and Opposite this is in the way you think and perceive the world around you as a full preterist or as a non full preterist and that I love hearing this because that It's it's demonstrating how vast and far be apart

We we are and that's good to see that. It's very good to see it. It really sounds like a

Paradigm It's it's not just an eschatology it's like the way that you it's almost like you're hermeneutic it's the way you see the world it

Interprets everything it reminds me of what the Adventist called the great controversy theme

It's this extra biblical thing that was given through LNG white that the

Adventist Church calls essentially the The answer to the everything particle.

That's the language They've used referencing Stephen Hawking and that it's this thing that's been given to them that answers all of the hardest questions about life

And it's how you properly interpret the Bible and all this sort of stuff This sounds very much similar to that in the way that it seems to impact and everything is funneled through it

Yeah, cuz that's something you told me Myles was what you're hearing more and more about full preterism is you're like this sounds a lot like Seventh -day

Adventism and in a lot of respects and when more you and I talked about this we're like this spawns out of a out of a distinct

I failed to distinguish between solo scriptura and Nuda scriptura or solo scriptura and what

I tell people is the solo scriptura is you're divorcing yourself From church history when people say things like the creeds don't matter.

They're not the ultimate authority. We're saying of course, they're not but they They are like safety rails of what the church has continued to study and look upon Before us like dr.

Frost was saying like the the Christians that come before us. We're not done, right? They've been looking at the same passages probably more in -depth than what we have right now

Praise God for technology and better correspondence and we're all see this is where I'm totally for people asking good

Exegetical questions, right but we have to do that within a worldview that glorifies

God and doesn't detach Themself from the historic faith. Does that make sense?

Yes Yeah Kind of a Colton you've done more work and in Colt work

But you know, one of the signs is that it is it's going off. It's it's going off the track and it

Your perception is different. It is a worldview. It's a different way of looking at almost everything

And that's when you know that you're probably off into now I can be a non -millennialist and get along with pre -millennialist post -millennialist because we're not looking at the world different Right all look the world through.

Oh, this is not the new heavens and new earth Yeah We would all agree and understand that And the details of how we get to new heavens and new earth may vary with millennial schemes and post pre -trib rapture and all that bunch of other but for the hyper plethora this is the new heavens and new earth and this this goes on for infinity and it and The Bible is read

With you take these glasses off and you put on your 70 AD glasses

And that's your it's a completely different way of reading it So if you talk to a Mormon and you go through the

Bible and I've experienced this where you go through Bible passages with them They're not reading. Yeah, they're reading the same words on the page.

But the interpretive mechanism going on is we're two worlds two different worlds

Passing in the night kind of a thing So this person may be just joining us, but I thought this was we've been touching on this a little bit already

So orange huge fan of the apologetic dog. Thank you orange

But he's saying so basically sola scriptura doesn't mean scripture alone and so Sola scriptura has a rich history orange and it does mean on the bear, you know from the

Latin scripture alone But the meaning is that scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith

So infallibility is what the Reformers were saying against Rome. No, we don't look to Tradition as being infallible.

We don't look to the magisterium as being infallible Of course, those are authorities within the

Roman Catholic paradigm But the Reformers are saying there's only one being one being who's infallible

And that's God and his revealed word And so the Reformers never wanted to divorce their interpretation understanding of scripture from the

Saints of old Right, so this is a common I think a misunderstanding

I think Myles has been doing some episodes in reference to this But do you want to speak any to this to orange when he says basically sola scriptura doesn't mean scripture alone

Well, the problem is is you need to clarify what alone I know you're saying scripture, but what about it?

What do you mean scripture alone? Because the term sola scriptura like you've said is shorthand for scripture alone is the sole

Infallible rule of faith and practice for the church. You can read Charles Hodges systematic theology

I think his chapter on this is really really really solid and just basic to understand in terms of what the position is

And that's actually what he starts it with is Scripture alone is the sole infallible rule of faith and practice for the church

So you have to include that final part on there you also need to understand the context in which this statement was said in and what it was being said in response to a

Lot of the Reformed catechisms and confessions, for example You need to understand Roman Catholicism in order to understand why it has the things in there worded the way that it does

Those types of things and so in this case, it's no different You need to understand what the term was in response to and it was that Church history and tradition does have a level of authority, but it is subservient to the ultimate authority

Which is scripture because that's the only God -breathed resource we have Mm -hmm It's also not it's it's it's the supreme authority, but it's also not the only

Authority it's and that statement is not saying that scripture is the only authority. There's no other authorities because Luther's catechism was framed after each the way he structured.

It was the Apostles Creed. Those were the chapter markers Institutes of the Christian religion is the chapter markers or the

Apostles Christ. That's what they're following so why wouldn't the world would they make these catechisms and structure these appealing to the

Nicene and appealing to the Apostles Creed mainly if they were anti -credal and these are the guys that were understanding what the soul of scriptural was because and they and they actually you know, there were a lot of Movements that were so low or new to scripture in Luther's and Calvin's day and they condemned them

They said that these guys are operating renegade Just and you read some of the stuff going on like in Germany 16th century later 16th centuries that some of those wacky and bizarre what people were doing

You know, it's just them and their Bible and these mystical experiences and they were all condemned because they're just making stuff up now

It's just you know, God told me And how do you how do you know that God did not tell you that?

Well, we have these Structures Scripture being the supreme but there's these others that are there as well.

These are guardrails That you know, and they're very general. We're not talking about every nook and cranny jot and tittle of our doctrine

The Apostles Creed is very broad within that. There's a lot of room to Have differences of opinion on different doctrines and stuff

But this is the general broad outline and if you're going to go outside of that The homework and the challenge and the onus the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate not on us

I don't have to demonstrate that the Apostles Creed represents these boundaries You have to demonstrate that at these fundamental levels that that the church went

Basically what they're saying is that the church on eschatology went off the rails very early on and Got it.

Got it 180 degrees totally wrong Well, that's a serious

Charge, I'm not saying Irenaeus is wrong because he may have been kiliastic.

I Can deal with that But we're saying the whole church is wrong in that they looked forward to life in the age to come and he shall descend from Heaven and raise the dead

That's a wholesale that Boy what else did we mess up?

Yeah, maybe Jesus is not God, you know, maybe we messed right up too. So that's what it does

Against Andrews Dr. Frost I read an article recently written by Douglas Wilson who he just has a way with words

He is a wordsmith and a half and I love reading this stuff Even if you disagree with him, we love

I love my Presby brothers You know I can have him on my channel and we can discuss so many things that we unite on and he wrote a wonderful Article recently and it's everything that you're saying.

Dr. Frost He talks about look with the pre millennial view all millennial view post millennial view We have the same bookmarkers

Genesis to Revelation We may differ with how some of the books are ordered Meaning we agree on the essentials and we may take different steps to get there and I love how it's simple refer

Monda I love it's iron sharpening iron, but it's within the same worldview right, and so Doug Wilson wrote this article because of Everything that is going on with the

Gary DeMar and so I want to kind of bring people up to speed Maybe y 'all can speak a little bit to this speak a little bit about this

But I believe within a couple weeks ago. There was a letter released to Gary DeMar It was initially a private letter asking

Gary to affirm fundamental truths of Christianity namely that Jesus is going to return in the future bodily and then he's going to judge the living and the dead along with being resurrected unto eternal life to rule and reign with him and There that there will be a resurrection or a restoration of all things

And so just just asking Gary to affirm these and he admitted on these podcasts

We're going to talk a little bit about because apparently dr. Frost y 'all are best friends. I learned and Gary DeMar He just said on his podcast

He just chunked it over a shoulder like I don't have to answer to anyone and that's true, but we love

Gary DeMar He is someone that many people myself and Myles look up to have read a lot of his work

I'm sure dr. Frost has too but to just totally disregard something that everybody is asking questions about You know kind of upsets my stomach a little bit and so but that's not just me

That's Everyone within Christendom that we deem as you know commendable when we look up to and very scholarly and so this letter went public

Okay, this letter was released urging people to pray for Gary DeMar that he wouldn't abandon these essential truths of Christianity And so that forced

Gary DeMar to do some podcasts and I want to say this real quick, too Apparently there is this website called hyperpreterism

Basically giving people opportunities to sign their name to it saying that we stand against What this movement full preterism and all of its many different shades of names we stand against it

We affirm the truths of you know, orthodoxy essentially and so then Gary DeMar put out five

Podcasts and so we all able to listen to most of those or if not all of them. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, so what are some initial thoughts

I want to start with you Myles was some of this eye -opening to you listening to Gary DeMar go into Some of some of how he reasons with the questions that were posed to him

Yeah, so It was There's just a lot to try and like wrestle with because I was hoping that at some point

There would be answers and I know he started the podcast by saying it's not about the questions because it's not about Gary It's about what does scripture say show me some verses to interact with but I still basically feel like he didn't even really interact with them and The only well, the only interaction that he did have with them was to basically criticize and say well good exegetical work

Hasn't really been done on this Hmm and to point at the people who have posed the questions and say well look out for example

Ken Gentry and Doug Wilson seemingly contradict one another well Gary How is that relevant to the questions that people have?

It kind of begs the question to say well, these are difficult questions to answer There's a lot we could say

I guess on that But the whole time I'm thinking like I've told you this is the same sort of reasoning that Seventh -day

Adventists use and other groups like that and Who's to say the

Trinity is not up for debate then Gary who's to say that the deity of Christ Because there's groups out there that are saying the same thing.

They're saying so is scriptura But Jesus is not God. The Father alone is God these all sorts of Unitarian groups out there

What all is up for debate because with this level of reasoning it's a never -ending revolving door With no real firm baseline to go to As any sort of guardrail the other thing

I think about the entire time I'm listening to this is I don't know of a single group outside of even this

Position a group that affirms this position Who is actually orthodox isn't some sort of Christological heretic like that seems to be the road that this leads to is

You then start to affirm all sorts of other heresies, which that that tends to be how heresy is heresy begets heresy

And so there's just a lot there, but at the end of it. I ultimately don't feel like really anything was resolved

He didn't really interact with what people were saying He more so just pointed the finger at the signers and said

We'll look at you guys you guys contradict one another you haven't given any verses to interact with and then when it came time to Interact with them.

It was kind of just downplaying them in the sense of well We haven't had good answer good good answers to the questions.

We have about this, but then I never heard any of the questions So it just seems like a real beating around the bush

That that was my experience listening to the podcast. It's like Mr. Damar you have some very pointed questions.

Do you affirm a future body the return of Christ? Will the resurrection of the dead literally happen to believers at the end of history and will

Christ restore all things when he returns What Gary does is say? I don't know But I want you to tell me the verses you think support that and what

I've noticed him Do is look at those verses and he would basically in my opinion sound exactly like a full preterist and says that doesn't

Necessarily mean that it doesn't and like you're saying miles It's just it's a never -ending, you know revolving door cuz

Gary did say well I can demonstrate where the Trinity is in the Bible Okay, but what about the guy that just denies that and says though that doesn't mean that right?

Well, ultimately we're gonna say well, we're in pretty good company right with the church that we can show throughout history

Yeah, history is messy. History is an art of hermeneutic But we would expect that we would see the gospel light and the truth about who

Christ is Throughout history, you know what I mean? And so Dr. Frost your name got brought up a few different times and I thought you okay

I was just gonna say like one more thing on that If Gary if you watch this this isn't we're not when we talked about this before and this isn't supposed to be like a mudslinging

Thing or anything like that I've actually learned a lot from Gary over the years, which is why this is coming as such a big shock

Um But Gary I've heard you defend these things in debates before The positions that you're now saying you're unsure about and these are debates from quite a while ago

So it's it's just interesting that you seem to have like a clear understanding of these things then

But now that you're seemingly with plausible deniability pivoting almost like a complete 180

And maybe that's why you're you you've studied it some and it's caused you to now second -guess all this

I don't know, but I just think that that's a little bit interesting He seemed to be able to go into debate and affirm the opposite of what he's denying for so long

Having dedicated decades to this specific topic and then now all of a sudden it's like well We just don't have answers to any of these things.

Mm -hmm. Thank you for that. Dr Frost definitely wants you to chime in on this because your name was brought up a lot

I think your name was brought up and maybe four of the five episodes or so and I was like, you know what?

We got to give old. Dr. Frost a chance to speak to a lot of things that were being said.

What's your first thoughts? We're gonna do Me and Jason Bradfield on Monday.

We're gonna highlight a lot of factual factual stuff that's being Said and hopefully nail all that down So I just want to stay, you know on topic here with with those issues back

Yeah, I think it was November late November December Possibly even early

January I was becoming aware Now a year ago

I Started hearing Gary was people were saying this Because I'm on Facebook, you know a couple of hours a day.

I've been a member on Facebook since 2008 You know, I'm one of these dinosaurs on Facebook Never been hacked never been put in the jail.

Never any of that. I just you know built us an audience over all these years So I you know and leading full preterism

I didn't lose all the full preterist friends and so I kept my finger on the pulse of what was going on and in that world and Still getting all tremendous feedbacks and this that and the other so But the last year

I was here, you know Gary's a hyper, you know Gary's hyper now I knew he wasn't condemning hyper preterism as heretical.

I knew that right he had spoken at my that's where I met Gary in North Carolina we spoke at a predator a hyper preterist conference

But he was not representing hyper preterism He was just speaking on biblical worldview the stuff that I was reading him in the 90s on And that's where I first, you know, really actually met met him and and I remember asking him

A couple of questions while we were outside having coffee in the morning About how we're not in the new heavens a new earth.

I said, well, you don't believe this is it and he said no This is not this we're not in the new heavens in the world so that was

Gary then and Of course when I came out American vision published my book why

I left full preterism and Gary DeMar endorsed that book which it was a pleasure to get Him and Keith Matheson and dr.

Gentry to endorse My work and I thought well, this is great. You know, this is this is really good and so and my book

Condemns Hyperpreterism, it doesn't say everyone's going to hell. It just says it's not

Christianity. This is not the definition of Christianity Become like the

Mormons and start your own Organization like seventh day, you know go go do your own thing.

That's great. Just stop calling a historic Christianity You know, we're all apostate. We all don't know what we're talking about.

Mr. Dr. Frost Can you answer this question real fast while I have it up? Solus criteria 21. I like that name by the way asked did anyone in the early church believe in full preterism?

No, no, not we know We've scoured and looked and my book misplaced hope which was a work that I did while a full preterist

I mean I scoured all the church fathers Many many years and no there wasn't anything there.

There's what you would call, you know Preteristic ideas Everyone knew that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70

AD. They all knew that in the 2nd century. That was big news So I Was defending

Gary when people would say are you a hyper and I said well No, he's he publishes my book and it's still on American vision.

And why would he be a hyper preterist and then? Endorse and publish and sell my book on American visions website that makes no sense

That's like saying I'm anti Hitler, but then I'm selling a copy of Mein Kampf, you know

It's like that wouldn't make any sense but It these these things kept coming at me and then finally

I started reading and seeing some things that he was doing and wondering Boy, it does and then he came on with Kim Burgess.

He started doing a lot of work with Kim Burgess Kim Burgess is a hyper preterist he was doing a

Conference last year Dave Curtis's and he was not condemning and I was starting to hear things like boy

This sounds like so I talked to gentry and I talked to a few other people and they had heard

Some things and maybe we should get some clarification. So 12 or 13 of us started a private little room and Crafted out how these guys are closer to Gary than I am.

I I'm not or anything like that. He's just a distant associate So after this letter the

RPC GA Which was associated with Whitfield seminary already had in 2010 a letter of an official letter of their denomination

Doing that and I said, you know, maybe you use this as a model. So after about a month after this little group started

I invited Jason Bradfield who didn't know anything about any of this going on with us others

I'm so I invited him over and said hey Jason you're over there at Whitfield now with the passing of dr

Talbot, so maybe you know, you can help us out. So we sent this letter to him private We were all very private.

Everything was private and we kept it private and Sandlin was talking to him in private and And so this is you know,

January February Late February and Gary said he would respond to us

Because it's out of concern. I grew I mean since 1989 90 91

I've been reading Gary, you know in his work and everything and recommending his work All of these years and all these other guys really knew him

They were very close to him so I could hear the heartache and they're like boy do you think he's really now as a full preterist when

I Came in through that route of post -millennial Partial preterism

I could hear I started listening to his podcast with Kim Burgess and all these trigger words and I could hear the questions.

I'm thinking that's what I was asking in 1991 these are the same things I was doing

Going into trying to find a rationale and an excuse and I'm asking the same questions

Well second coming doesn't mean that here and John Owen says this over here and Gentry says this over here

David Chilton says this over here, but if you put them all together You get full preterism. I don't see what the problem is here and I slowly

Got into and became a convinced full preterist because I because I was using the same strategies that he was doing

It was like watching my life over again, and I'm like boy. He really is

He's really embracing this he's really starting so the others began to see it, and we thought well what how can we ask?

What really cut to the chase that any my Roman Catholic friends my Eastern Orthodox friends?

you know Baptist Presbyterians Methodist that doesn't make any difference is

Jesus coming again. Yes, is he going to raise the dead, but yes Do we look forward life in the yes, you can answer him just like that.

You don't even have to think about it Gary couldn't answer them, and he stalled us, and he stalled us, and he stalled us.

He kept stall which is dr. Frost let me tell you this real quick like it's discouraging somebody like Gary DeMar that's been studying these issues for 40 years

And if he's uncertain, how do you think that affects the rest of us? I mean he's wanting to say yeah, you can't know essentially and I'm over here saying

I'm looking at the same scripture He's looking at I'm studying a lot of guys who don't conclude that way, and I think we should be consistent

But I just wanted to kind of pause pause you and just say like it's discouraging to me To read these things, and I wanted to see if miles if you wanted to pick up on anything real quick No, I'm enjoying listening to Sam.

You're so kind of laying it in well I have laying out the details so I have a question Sam like Gary DeMar is like show us scripture right and so Here's one that I wanted to bring up you and I have talked about Let me do a little dance real quick get myself in there, so this one is huge to me

This comes out of 2nd Timothy chapter 2 let me read this and dr.

Frost This isn't convincing to Gary DeMar And obviously the full preterist that I've talked to and I'm like I can't see it any other way

Maybe you could speak to a little bit of their objections, and why it doesn't work But we've talked about this Let me make sure y 'all can see what

I'm saying okay So remind remind them of these things and charge them before God not to quarrel about words

Which does no good, but only ruins the heroes do your best to present yourself to God as one approved a worker who needs no

No need to be ashamed rightly handling the word of truth But avoid irreverent babble for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness and their talk will spread like gangrene

Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus who have swerved from the truth saying that the resurrection has already

Happened they are upsetting the faith of some but God's firm foundation stands bearing this seal the

Lord knows who are his and let Everyone who names the name the Lord depart from iniquity now

I read the whole passage because every time I bring this up. I get accused of not looking at the whole context and So I did it so It seems very simple that they got the timing of the resurrection wrong and somehow that has grand

Implications of misunderstanding the gospel causing people to swerve from the truth now I'm convinced to misunderstand the resurrection as being past is not future not only

Changes the gospel promise that has been given to us But it also is going to touch on the nature of Jesus who was the first fruits of the resurrection

That's going to be so help me out. Dr. Frost. What am I missing? Why is this not convincing to dr.

Gary tomorrow? well, our argument would be that if they were saying if the

Paul's doctrine of the resurrection of the dead was bodily and Was the end of the world

Then obviously that did not happen when with these two that were saying it was passed already.

So They it's obvious that they were teaching a kind of a spiritual

Resurrection or something along those lines Which means that that's what Paul also was teaching

Because how else could they have taught such things? If Paul was teaching the resurrection of the dead is physical and bodily and into the world and all of the other stuff

So Paul must have been teaching a spiritual resurrection and the only difference between Hymenaeus and Paul's doctrine is that Paul believed that the spiritual resurrection not the end of the world

Non -physical resurrection is in the future 70 AD and not in the past That's the only difference and that other than that hymenaeus and philetus were pretty good dudes

That's Don Preston's version that's the writer's spin on there Dr.

Frost this is a red herring. This is a red hair. This isn't really hitting the But that's their argument but if you look at these scholars virtually in consensus of what they're saying here is that what you have here is what is

Probably a proto Greek What becomes full -bloom

Gnosticism in the second century you probably already got that going on right here and they're?

spiritualizing Paul's Physical resurrection these guys are spiritualizing it because they just cannot conceive of a bodily resurrection

Which is typical and easily understandable in a lot of Greek philosophies that were going around in and around Paul's day and at that time

That's the general consensus of what most Commentaries periodicals and scholars say on that.

I totally see that now and say yes, it's quite obvious That's what that's what's going on here, and they're spiritualizing what

Paul is saying no It's not spiritual And it's not something that happens when we receive the spirit or whatever other event hymenaeus and philetus had in mind

We don't fully know who these people were but we have a pretty good idea of it and secondly

We know what they were saying in 2nd century Gnosticism that were spreading around and of that time.

Thanks for the Nag Hammadi Library gospel of Judas and all of this other stuff gospel of Philip who explicitly says this kind of stuff so There it is

Hyper -preterism is Gnosticism. It's that is very very clear to me right now

But I remember arguing that text and saying well, it's spiritual so basically what it was is that when

Caligula? Tried to take over the temple, but he was rejected by God It was these

Judaizers that were saying see that's the resurrection of the dead and God is still pro -jewish

He's pro old covenant and Paul is saying no the old covenant is being done away with 70 ad will be its fulfillment

And so we can't bring in the spiritual aspects of Messiah mixed in with the old covenant

Which is what hymenaeus and philetus are trying to do did you get all that? Because that's the worldview that you have to have to read that I look at myself now, and I think man

I spun a lot of that and assumed a lot, but that's what they have to do

It's what you you must it's like I'd love to hear miles on His his work on seventh -day

Adventism when you go through Hebrews and talk about investigative judgment, and how they'll take very clear

But they will turn them in such a way like in Daniel 9 and stuff they just Read it in such other light

It is an other it's an other light And that's my concern is that you're not reading it and then turn around and saying we're just using proper exegesis and Context no you're not

Something that got me Gary seemed to be Gary seemed to be alluding at and and I maybe

I heard this wrong But it seemed like he was alluding at the idea of like without again directly saying it seems to be pretty clear what he's trending toward That this is just the consistent hermeneutic and look at these other guys

They're not taking this to its consistent ends, and I don't know as somebody who is a partial preterist

I'm not seeing that at all I'm not seeing that at all I'd like to know your answer

Sam which we have questions in the side chat But I'd like to know the at some point getting into what's the response to Christ being the first fruit mm -hmm?

Because I mean no brainer Every comment, I mean they he's the first fruit, so if he's an apple the harvest are going to be a bunch of apples

Yeah, and he's the Point that yeah, so you're really resurrected in And he clearly resurrected in a physical body and So if he's the first fruits of the resurrection in that This idea that the resurrection for everyone else is only a spiritual resurrection

That that's not the first fruits well You can see now the inconsistency between two groups that are in hyper preterism

The first group is called the immortal body of at death view and this is Ed Stevens and others

And they believe that Jesus ascended bodily into heaven in the self same body that he was raised in but he was the exception

The rest of the harvest is spiritual resurrection get a new body because they know that they're the disconnect between those two

Jesus didn't get a new body He was raised in an empty tomb. This is what the church.

It's what the scriptures say. It's an empty tomb He could have left his body in the tomb and came out with another body and say see we get another body and that would

Just solve all of our problems, but it's he was risen in that in that very same body

So they make him the exception. The other group is Solve the problems with that If Jesus is raised physically and glorified physically and ascended physically in his physically body

Then that is the nature of the resurrection. And so we got to get rid of the body of Jesus Which the other body at death view

Don Preston Mike Sullivan Bill Evans William Bell Alan Bond are

Don Preston wrote a book with Alan Bond are that basically states that Jesus chucked his body at the

Ascension Because they know if he ascended bodily physically then that Speaks of the nature of the resurrection because Paul explicitly compares our resurrection to his resurrection

And so the comparison must be spiritual only or and it can't be

Jesus is physical But the rest of us is spiritual It's either spiritual only and all of our resurrections are spiritual or it's physical and all of our resurrection will be physical

So on one hand they acknowledge that the harvest in the first fruits imagery does go hand in hand and that's why

Preston will assert that Jesus was only physically raised and only to only to prove and Demonstrate that he was in fact raised but that physicality of his resurrection is not the resurrection

It's his resurrection from sin death and from spiritual death. That's the true resurrection and You miles

I would love to hear you because you're probably thinking well, these guys are just in a cult Because they're redefining

Everything and they have to they must we must we had to yeah I was gonna say this sounds again very similar to Adventism in the sense that they're using all of the same language all the same words

But then when you're describing what's being said, it's like well That's not anything

Obviously, I'm not the standard but it's like I've read a lot of commentators on these fundamentals again the creeds like You're out of step with all this stuff

Yeah, and this was the breaking point for me in 2009 when

I began to stay because I'm I love the church. I've been raised in the church most of my life

I just I love everything and so I was always wanting to bridge a gap Between what we were saying and I had had my bachelor's

I had good peers and colleagues around me as well Some that were trying to constantly challenge of me like dr.

Talbot was and dr. Crampton and others when

It began when I we began to do the theology of saying how can we have Jesus with a human nature in a physical body?

See that's gonna that and yet say the resurrection of the dead is spiritual or we get new bodies Which is not what happened to Jesus How do we we have to keep the human nature of Christ if we get rid of that?

Well Don Preston was willing to even get rid of that that Jesus was reabsorbed back into the Godhead Upon the

Ascension and and he has a memory of what it was like to be a human being and thus there he can still

Feel our weaknesses and that's that and the other but he's no longer a human being and I thought I can't go that if my my 70 ad is taking me that far

There's something we got to do better than this, you know, dr. Frost in your book.

I think you talked about the The perfect Participle in 1st

John chapter 4 about Jesus being in the flesh right in The father so this is a past action that has future ramifications

Right, so this helps inform us in 1st Timothy. I think chapter 2 about how

Christ the man Christ Jesus Well, he's he continually intercedes on our behalf to the father right as the as our high priest as a paraclete

And so this is why I see for preterism as hyper and outside the bounds of orthodoxy because it actually

Tampers with the ontology of who Jesus is Colts do one or two things or both

They they they start redefining who Jesus is So remember Paul warned us about looking out for false

Jesus's and 2nd Corinthians Okay, and Jesus said unless you believe that ego I me I am then you will die in your sins so you can't mess with who

Jesus is as the second person of the Trinity the God -man who took on flesh dwelt among us and Represents us right as our new federal head by faith alone to him

And the second thing is how you receive that biblical Jesus and it's by faith alone apart from our works

That's why I do so much work Evangelizing the Church of Christ because they ultimately bring in works and mix that with faith

So you gotta believe in the right Jesus and you have to receive him on the terms that he prescribed.

So have a question here If you don't mind I see

Stacey Turbeville in the comments a perfect example perfect example of what I was saying earlier this leads to Christological heresy and having a false

God. This is what it leads to you you end up going down this path This is why we're concerned for people like Gary because again

Can I would love if anyone could share with me whether it's in the comments or emailing me? Can you show me an orthodox group of people that have affirmed this?

mmm -hmm a Christologically Orthodox group We've had some good interaction with Stacey in the past haven't we dr.

Frost Yeah, and you would have to accept I would have to accept because I believe he's what Unitarian.

Is that correct? I don't want to miss there, but he's admitted that So if I were still in that movement,

I would have to have no real problems with with this full preterist Stacey being a

Unitarian I What am I gonna say Stacey? That's against the creeds.

I That's gone that arguments gone I can't even say well those creeds have stated that Jesus is

Trinitarian To which Stacey would just reply the creeds also state that Jesus will come again

So you've destroyed that I can't have that conversation so They these were the things that were troubling troubling me and when when

I was starting to really dialogue and see what was going on and again, I'm always still pushing and researching and studying and Asking these kinds of questions

You know, what do we do? with Jesus the man Christ Jesus it says that even in 70

AD that you will see the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven You know, it's not

Son of God you will see the Son of Man and the Son of Man just means human being it's just a

Aramaic phrase that just means human being So, I mean Daniel and Ezekiel are called sons of men

There's sons of men just reference to just people who are human beings. Jesus is a human being fully man So now we had to get rid of that so we've gotten rid of Second -coming we've gotten rid of resurrection bodily resurrection.

We've gotten rid of new heavens new or we've spiritualized that we've gotten rid of that We're no longer Believe in progressive sanctification because progressive sanctification is unto glorification

Which we believe that we're already glorified because we're standing in the new covenant with Christ So that's spiritual so we've gotten rid of that and it began to die

How many of these things are we going to get away from and still call ourselves Christian in the ordinary?

Evangelical historic meaning of that term because we're not anymore not by definition anyway, and my spirit

This was troubling This is very troubling to I was trying to do our work

Jason Bradfield those years between 2006 2009 theologically,

I was trying to do the work of remaining evangelical

Orthodox Evangelical but yet still full preterist and it cannot be done.

It's impossible. Okay, so count them on top of that forget Frost, you know, we're talking about people like Stacy who we love

That aren't accept answers like well that goes against the historic confessions of the church

Obviously Gary DeMar that was his big problem is don't point me to a creed and this is where I want to say timeout

Okay, we when we properly understand solo scripture. We don't say that we have a historic faith that Jesus is going to build his church

We're not going to lose the gospel the gospel meaning the good news of what Jesus accomplished and what he promised to those that receive him by faith and So, but I tell especially people at 12 five

I just say the creeds are kind of guardrails number one, but it's okay to say

Okay, I accept the historic faith, but I have exegetical questions. So I want to say that's fine

It's like okay I see I see what the creeds are saying, but I still have questions and so this kind of leaves me to Pete J here, that's a great question and Dr.

Frost this is to you, but I want first cracks at it. Okay, I'm sure I can I've been taking notes from Miles it's wonderful meeting you here for the first time.

I'm Dr. Frost's miles is he's a wizard when it comes to graphic design and stuff

So I'm jealous of his backgrounds and how he packages everything. I need to Better So the question is dr.

Frost where in the Bible would you say is a definitive answer to the second coming of Christ so I get first cracks and Cuz I called you

I said, I need help I've kind of taken these things for granted just because who in their right mind would deny this

Is Christianity one -on -one and so I did an eschatology series here at church where I talked about the three

Orthodox perspectives premillennialism all millennialism and Postmillennialism and I gave a positive presentation of all three, which was really fun, by the way, and then with the last sermon that I did was on exposing the death knell to hyper preterism and so my favorite passage in all this

I Went to 1st Corinthians chapter 15, and so there's a short little chunk here that involves the second coming of Christ the parrhesia

Involves the resurrection of the dead and the restoration of all things So this is my crack at this question

How do I know that the second coming of Jesus is still yet in our future? Not just in the future of the that generation and all of it discourse

So don't read this real fast get y 'all's thoughts. So Paul says here's but in fact Christ has been raised from the dead the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep

For as by a man came death by a man also has come the resurrection of the dead for as an Adam all die

So also in Christ shall all be made alive But each in his own order Christ the first fruits then at his parrhesia

Those who belong to Christ then comes the end when he delivers the kingdom of God There are two could who

God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power For he must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death Okay. Now I'm not gonna preach the whole sermon here.

I want to But death here is physical death Jesus physically died and was physically resurrected.

He like you said, dr. Frost. He's not the exception He's the rule those who have fallen asleep in Christ is a reference to those who have already died that are

Christians And so when we look back in Genesis 3 and we can get more into the argumentation if people are questioning

But Adam introduced physical death into the world and that's connected to his sin and rebellion against God so Christ parrhesia

Christ coming is connected to the end which I'm going to assert is the end of history when he has put all things in subjection to God the

Father's feet right or he's restoring all things, right? This is the teleology the culmination of what all things are going to it's going to be at his coming

He's gonna restore all things at the end. And how do we know this because he's gonna destroy the last enemy death

This I think is the contending point here is this is physical death. So if we look around us and we still see

Wars we see hurts pain things resulting in death this is an indicator that Christ has not returned the resurrection of the dead has not happened and and Christ will restore all things and the big time indicator is that we still see and experience physical death

And so that is my passage along with the rest of 1st Corinthians 15

I interact with some some gentlemen that say well, I quotes the Old Testament here. So this is covenantal language.

No, it's not right Jesus physically died Paul is being Excruciatingly clear of what he's talking about.

He is going to put death to death. He's gonna bring an end to physical death So, what do y 'all think?

That's my crack of saying you want a didactic explicit passage about when the second when the

Cummings gonna happen? It's gonna happen at the end where the resurrection of the dead is gonna happen and he's gonna restore all things and put death to death

Amen. Whoo. What do you think Myles? I mean, that's exactly what I was gonna say. Is that the final enemy to be defeated is death

Like listening to you kind of explain it and hearing some of these guys give the answer that they give

But I got more like man to baby that's just It makes me start to wonder about stuff like the perspicuity of Scripture There's just there's a lot of stuff that runs through my mind when

I hear these things But this is exactly where I point to and that's what I was bringing up earlier It's like we've got the resurrection and then the the physical return of being the first fruits

And we follow afterward at the point where like the book of Hebrews says Hebrews 10 13 that he's currently ruling and reigning making all of his enemies a

Footstool and the last enemy that will be defeated is death and Again, maybe

I just don't know enough about the position, but it seems very odd that it's wild. It's wild We have a we have a ton of death still happening

And what is it? Is it spiritual death? That's what's been defeated. This is all spiritual death Old Covenant Old Covenant death separation from God death

And that ended in 70 AD. That's what looking forward to here But you obviously have to read again you have to buy into the system to read that into These texts

I remember I remember very Vividly talking with with Don Preston and many others

That we we would never if to present this to other people because we would work on these things how to present how to present the 70

AD gospel to so here We would never start and we all agreed never start in 1st

Corinthians 15 We have to start with the so -called time tax 15 like the plague dr.

Frost Well, you can't you can't because temple Falling Jerusalem Roman soldiers coming and that's no worry, but that's not even close not even anywhere mentioned

So we have to first define so we got end of the age So you'll find some unguarded

Speculations that the end of the age was 70 AD and that's the end Kick in your dispensationalism.

There's only one end and Once you've surrendered end of the age in 70 AD, then what end is he talking about in 1st

Corinthians 15? There's only one end and so if the end of 70 AD and Paul's talking about the end in 1st

Corinthians 15 This generation shall not pass until all these things

You can see where it it starts to get the ball rolling there Miles has about 20 more minutes.

And so I want to work through some questions. Oh Okay, we're on the same page and in miles.

I got a timer man. Don't worry. I got you So it's Friday in a nutshell.

Dr. Frost. How would you answer this? What's what's the definitive passage that you would go to to say this is clearly talking about a future second coming for us today

Well everything you just said he's talking about death physical death there death is the enemy.

That's what he's what else would he be talking about? Jesus is start at the very beginning of the chapter. Jesus was died he's buried rose again from the dead and Still is the perfect tense is used there and has been risen and still is risen from the dead

That's how you would read the Greek so That's what he's talking about then in light of Jesus being raised from the dead of what you believe

How can some who have crept in or come in among you Greeks? No, undoubtedly saying that there is no resurrection of the devs.

There's no resurrection of the dead You know Christ has not been raised from the dead physically He's not talking about his ascension and being absorbed back into the godhead after he chucked his body

He's talking about his resurrection the morning of Then Christ has not been raised.

So it's very obvious What the way you just read it in the way that Myles reads it the way that every

Christian has has read this It doesn't matter whether you're Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

I read all a great amount of literature They all think we all agree on We all agree on this

Critical scholars who do not believe that Paul wrote second Thessalonians Agree on what

Paul is saying here in 1st Corinthians 15 Because it's it's the

Greek text, which I have almost memorized but the Greek it's it's what it's saying

When I was asking you questions and I was reading Ken Gentry's book on having missed the second coming, you know

I started going to the the Olivet Discourse and I was profound the way

I was understanding as two questions being asked and Jesus is Essentially answering two separate questions one about the temple and then one about the sign of his coming

I know there's maybe some other ways of understanding that as well but at the end the day I was thinking you know what the

Olivet Discourse is not as clear as I would like it to understand this issue, but 1st

Corinthians 15. I thought it's over and done I mean, there's too much context and I've went to town on Answering people with comments and they want to get out of 1st

Corinthians 15 I'm like that's that's what everything to me is going back to this didactic text how

Paul Understood the nature of the resurrection and he attached it to how Christ Resurrected raised the firstfruits and who also died physically

So my point is the Olivet Discourse has always been hard for me as a starting point

I think however you interpret the Olivet Discourse is going to necessarily affect how you look at the book of Revelation and Daniel and some

Other things, but I thought this was a good question Maybe to touch on since we do have a little bit over 15 minutes left

So orange again as Sam or anyone is Matthew 24 verses 29 through 34

AD or end of time and so I thought I could maybe read this And just get y 'all's thoughts on this so this is talking about the coming of the

Son of Man where Jesus says immediately after the Tribulation of those days the Sun will be dark and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from heaven and the powers of heaven will be shaken

Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man and then all tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see

The Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet with a loud trumpet call and they will gather

His elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other so dr.

Frost, can you help us out here and miles if you want to hop in at any point? I think 29 is describing the end

He obviously separates out between what he calls woes or Archaic beginning of woes and and the end so archaic beginning and tell us those are antonyms

So he's pleased, you know, you've got beginnings and you've got ends now the the phrasing

Beginnings of woes. That's a phrasing that you find a lot in the Old Testament Birth pains have come upon me.

You could see this a lot when any kind of tribulation Affliction war earthquake famine, whatever is taking place

Isaiah would say or David would say it is if woman's travail has come upon me or a woman's travail has come upon Israel So this was a figure of speech.

Well, what is that? What do they mean by that? Well, they mean what Jesus says earthquakes famines persecutions hatreds of against God Whatever else you could throw in there with wrath of God and these typical types of displays.

These are these are labor pains These are contractual things but the end Is not yet So there's a difference between the two

So after he goes through all of these things that will take place famines earthquakes and will continue to take place earthquakes famines persecution hatred

Gospel will be published among the nations as a testimony. These things will continue to go on but the end is not yet Well, what is the end?

Well, what is the end of labor? the end of labor pains This is this is

Jewish The labor pains will cease the famines the earthquakes the tribulations the wars

Persecutions the hate all of that will cease because God will make all things right when the end comes that's typical juice the second temple

Judaism and So Jesus is distinguishing between these two things and he's describing the end that will happen

This will happen at the end But the end no man knows the day or the hour when heaven and earth will pass away and then he says of that day

That refers back to heaven and earth passing away that day. No man knows the day or the hour so What are we to do in the meantime while we're here?

Well, don't be deceived Be aware be alert pay attention

Evil is all around. It's very subtle. It's it comes at you in many ways. Well, where's

Jesus at? Well, I'm in heaven at the right hand of the father. So don't listen to anybody on earth saying he's here

You know where I'm at. I'm at the right in Where I will But anyway, I've had people get mad at me.

I didn't keep reading to verse 34 in the KJV verily verily I say unto you this generation will not pass away till all

Doc frost you don't understand the word past there all these things take place. What do you would you say that objection?

Let's say go back to verse 8 where he defines all these things He said when he said all these things must take place

That's the same phrasing in Revelation and it's found in a few other places all these things must take place

These that's a demonstrative pronoun that's referring back in the context of what he's saying what things?

famines earthquakes wars rumors of wars nations against nations all of this stuff that will be take the gospel will continue to be published as Testimony among all the nations all of this stuff will go on and you will see all these things

You will even see Jerusalem a war in your own time. You will see all of this, but the end is not yet That's that's what he's saying to them

This generation is going to come and this generation is going to go this generation will pass away

You are not the terminal generation that is going to see my glory. You are not the generation

You will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it But you will long to see it.

I long to see it. I I'd live I want to go to heaven. I Want to be with I you know,

I I don't but it is better for me to be here in the flesh So I'm here and we don't have a death wish.

This is Paul 2nd Corinthians 5 I'm sorry to tell you but this world's gonna continue on as is into infinity

That's blasphemous Yeah, he's a failure then

God God is a failure and I want nothing to do with it Well, I would dr. Frost and I need to cool off for a second.

Do you have any thoughts? No, you're good, I think that that's

I think that's good stuff I think it's important to to remember that yeah, these there are like Of course, everyone has their difficulty passages not or or short but but You can also add in a component

I think of a of a now and a not yet Which is kind of what you essentially did by saying that it's very easy to like read things in a very like strict false dichotomy or like binary when yes, sometimes things can be a little bit more nuanced than that and you brought out a really good point of like You really need to understand the

Old Testament to really understand the New Testament properly and what we have here is a very common decreation language that seems to be taking place and Just like you pointed out

These things are going to take place and some in this generation are going to see these things

But the end is still not here yet yeah, so that seems to place a a

Barrier on The ends not here yet and and miles my interaction with full preterism

Every time you see the word end Old Testament New Testament that has to be referring to 70 ad because of the timing indicators

Which I'll just refer people there's me and fraught. Dr. Frost have talked about what soon means

What at hand means he's at the door what all these things mean and I will say we all have read the book of Hebrews like we understand there is an end to the

Judaic aeon if you will there was the old things being rendered obsolete and a fulfillment of that, but I loved what one of the

Points in the side chat said like if 70 ad if hyper preterism was true, then literally this

Word of God Does not apply to us, right? We're reading somebody else's mail.

And so this has an impact on a worldview, right? We give up how we like in Gary DeMar's whole thing was he wanted to speak to a worldview practically how to live life

And he went kind of the post -millennial route with theonomy and it's like, you know what there's some valid points there

There's a way to kind of frame how you view the world and how you should live before preterism

Takes all that away and shoves it into a first century paradigm So We got about Because Jesus is standing there with him and it would be wonderful to just say

You know Jesus Joseph Smith is saying this about that He had a revelation there through a peep at and that's a stone and all this stuff

What do you think about and I could turn to Jesus and just say what do you think about that? But he's see he's not here.

He's absent Paul talks about being absent. John 17 says father. I'm coming to you I will no longer be with you in the world, but I'm going to the father

So can I be deceived? Yes, because I don't have the presence of Jesus to just turn to and ask

So when he says do not be deceived because many will come in my name Well, how could

I could I fall for that? Well if you're not careful well

Wouldn't God just tell me what I'm being well Yeah, but you need each other you need the church because deception is still very active and it's still and so That's an easy argument to say to a hyper pretenders.

Can I be deceived today? Well, the whole church is deceived on the second cup. So deception is still work then

That God could clear up very easily if he were present Jesus were present

I could just say Jesus your opinion But I don't have access to that which means that I'm still in Something that God has not yet corrected it will be correct, but I've not yet correct.

Dr. Frost. I got some good I'm gonna be making some YouTube shorts. I got to get miles to show me just how to do that But you've said so many things.

I'm like, yes, I'll just crystallize that So I think about it miles one quick one thing you were saying there that just got me to think too.

I'm like So do we not have to worry about false Christ? Yeah, right like Or like and if we if we do still and things are gonna indefinitely go on like they are because we've made it

Indefinitely there's gonna be false Christ Miles you understand that's the first century.

They had to watch out for false Christ. Not us. Yeah, right. So I'm saying so then okay So then that scripture doesn't even apply to us in any way.

There's no application to us today So this is how you then get so far downstream to where it's like well

At this point the Bible is I'm really applicable to you It's just giving you information that I'm not sure how you actually really apply in this life

Because you've already made it. I Don't think I'm not worried about you two ever becoming hyper preterist.

It's not The bullhorn and warning people too and I've gotten some

I've I've lost friendships the men that I love dearly to this day that have went down this path

I still pray for them I use any and all opportunity that I can to speak truth into people's lives and warn them of this heresy

And so that's why we take time to do this It breaks my heart But this is what God's called us to do and so I wanted to I told blue light here that I would try to get this

Question in here either one of y 'all especially Sam Okay, Matthew 24 into 25

So they've defined the end of the age in such a way where it's all kind of tied to the same event

I didn't know if you could help speak because you've looked into this right you because miles we've talked about the implications of full preterism is so Massive that Satan Matthew 25 is already thrown into the lake of fire, right?

That's how they read the the end of the age. So dr. Frost Do you have any advice or any helpful tips of how we can understand

Matthew 25 into Matthew 24? Well, I think there he's referring to the nature of being ready.

So if as long as he's absent Then how are we to be well have your lamps filled and your wicks trimmed?

There's this sense of always being aware Because there's a

It's recognized among among some But that Matthew's playing on the end of your life or he's playing on the end of the age, whichever comes first in both cases

Be ready and alert because you do not know when the Lord may come he can come in a way that is personal

Because he has the keys of life and death or he can come in the end of the age

Whichever one comes first you are to be mindful It seems as if and I'm being Too quick and brief here.

It seems as if Matthew is wanting to take speculation off of calculation and When is the end and all of the apocalyptic that was buzzing around the air in the first century at that time?

He's taking all of that emphasis off with no man knows of that day of the hour of heaven and earth's passing

Meanwhile in the meantime your focus is to be on Staying obedient and faithful to God Period that's the focus and the focus is upon the

Lord who is awaiting or who is in heaven That's the focus of how you live your ethical life here on earth.

You are old Ways where there's never any breaks It's that kind of emphasis that gets put on the ethical aspect of living while the

Lord is at the right hand of the father So I'd like to add a little bit to that because back in all of it discourse

And there's there's some healthy disagreement on how to understand if there's being two questions being asked or what that's looking like but Gentry along with dr.

Storms Sam Storms Loved some of the work that they put into and saying look how different Jesus is talking about this age

He's giving a time indicator of something But then he immediately talks about a day that no one knows

Connected with the sign of the coming of man. Not even the Sun Right, which is pretty pretty heavy language there

And so Matthew 25 kind of carries this at the end of the parable of the ten virgins watch

Therefore for you neither know the day or the hour and I also tell people in Acts 1

There are certain things in eschatology. You're not supposed to know the times and seasons of these things trust

God now study What he's revealed to us, but if we don't have it all ironed out, it's okay

There's there's a nature and an aspect to that where I don't think we're supposed to now God his word is clear enough where we can bank on Jesus is going to return bodily in the future to restore all things and we will be resurrected unto eternal life

That's so That's our blessing. Yes. That's what that's what fuels

Paul says in Romans 8 for it is in this. Hope you are being saved That's why

I am socially active that's why I go to jail ministries, that's why I do minister in the church

That's why I do the things with my family That's that is what motivates me because he's working in me something that will be

Perfected and my labor is not in vain The labor of the church is not in vain because God is moving everything towards this blessed

Hope and so it gives sense now and purpose to why I wake up in the morning and do what it is that I do

But if it's all fulfilled and all done and this that and the other and I could just kind of do whatever I want to Do I mean it doesn't really make any difference you can see where the

Watching the nature of watching and being alert Because it's not yet. The end is not yet.

You still have something to do before the end comes There's purpose established, but if it's all fulfilled you've lost the purpose.

Yes. Why we're winding down. We got a few more minutes miles I wanted to give you another opportunity if you wanted to chime in I got kind of one more question

I'm looking to to kind of tackle. Yeah Bring it up.

Okay. Well, if you want to speak to kind of this passage and how it's linked to the end of the age

Which because what I'm noticing is a lot of and this is what I'm talking about with healthy disagreement.

Dr Frost is you got all millennialist and post millennialist talking about what the end of the age

What is this age and the age to come look like I've noticed that is actually where there is some slight disagreement and I love it because For a long time.

I've looked at all mill and post mom I'm like man I can't really see a functional difference other than maybe a pessimistic look at some things or an optimistic and I get told that's not right

But what I'm learning is how you understand the end of the age And what's what's interesting about more of the all -millennial view that being kind of the end of history it

Encompasses the end of Judaism the way that God rightly prescribed and yes

The the destruction of the temple was massive in a lot of that So I've loved that study as well as wanting to say and before I bring up this next question

You mentioned Romans chapter 8 This is why I don't know if this was Don Preston and Michael Sullivan that I heard bring this up, but they tried to make this somehow a

Covenantal body view of not individuals, but like a body like do you know what

I'm talking about? Yeah we used to preach that the creation there was referring to Jews and That the other not only us

Jews, but also creation itself Gentiles Who also grown so we were reading all of that into 70

AD Obviously Romans 8 is 70 AD, you know So we had to say that this idea that it's referring to physical creation being redeemed is false

And so what is he referring to? Well, not only us who've grown inwardly, but the also the whole creation

So that's the inclusion of the Gentiles into the redemption of the body the corporate body see again

And I'm sure you both and miles probably thinking how do they get this? We were we are forced to because the end of 70

AD and you so therefore Romans 8 Must be interpreted in light of 70

AD and fulfilled in place there So whatever he's talking about in Romans 8 has to be 70

AD. So it's a forced. It's a forced exegesis We we already have it before we even get into the text

Romans 8 cannot go beyond 70 AD It just can't Miles forgive me.

I'm gonna keep you a couple more minutes on this last question So as we wind down I spent a lot of time on this question because When I was getting ready to teach and preach at 12 five church with my members

I really wanted to find the passage that kind of encapsulated all of what belongs in our blessed

Hope that passage we looked at earlier I was like beautiful like I don't I don't know of how people could twist it but it didn't take long for me to think

Oh, they're gonna reinterpret death to be spiritual death and so I spent a long time thinking about how

I would answer this and And so I want to get y 'all's thoughts on this and like I said

I've spent a lot of time with this and I want to encourage people I have a five -part sermon series on eschatology where I give an overview of the

Orthodox perspective. I give a positive Look at all three Orthodox perspective and then

I talk about in my opinion the death knell to full preterism and so Adam and I got this from dr.

Frost and I've always known this but I don't think it hit me until I started studying this but Adam should have died physically that day that he did the trot the knowledge of Good and evil ate of the tree.

He should have died. How do I know that? Well, God made a covering on his behalf and I want to back up because when

God was telling Adam in Genesis chapter 2, he said surely you will die the day that you eat of this tree

Now this is where I have when he says you will die you will experience death you will experience

Consequences for sinning against me. Now. What I say is what does death mean for a human being?

I believe we get that defined in Earlier or in Genesis I think it's 2 verse 7 along with what it means to be the

Imago Dei being created in God's image But man is at least a dichotomy like to get it into the trichotomy and stuff like that But man is soul and spirit

God took the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath of life And so death would touch both features of what man is sure

Are they in some type of koinonia and covenant and relationship? yes to all that but death is going to touch both features of who man is and so I believe there was some

Type of covenantal rift as dr. Frost says I do believe this may be where we part ways a little bit

But my goodness in love Where I believe there is a spiritual separation because of who

Adam was Because of who man is and so but we learn more about the gracious character of God in the garden

We got the proto Evangelium, right? He says I will send one an offspring of the woman to crush the head of the serpent.

Well, what does that mean? He's like you deserve to die physically today, right, but I'm gonna show you mercy and dr

Frost you I think it's later in verse 20 Y 'all may have to double -check me but God provided a covering for Adam and Eve This is a picture of a substitute that was made on behalf of Adam and Eve sin

We learned later in the law that life is in the blood God would have had to sacrifice

Animals physically had to die on their behalf So did Adam die physically that day?

No But he should have because God is merciful and he is kind and he is gracious and I will add this

Adam began to die that day Along with all of creation felt the effects of sin and they were no longer to partake in the sphere of the tree of life

And death was introduced to the world I would say Romans 8 is clear that all of creation was subjected to futility

Why because of Adam's sin and it results in physical death. What do y 'all think?

Sorry? I preached a sermon there That's a that's another show There we go

What do you know there but I think that you are touching just on the themes that Paul particularly in Romans 512 on words.

Yep Culminating in 8 and then coming in with in light of Romans 1 through 8 bringing

Israel Which I think 9 through 11 is the climax of Romans That's it. That's where he's been going all along is what do you do now with Israel Israel still has a future?

Until life from the dead until Israel is raised from the dead. So has God failed Israel? No He's going to raise

Israel from the dead when the dead are raised in the fullness of the nation's come and the fullness of Israel comes Israel shall be raised

David Zechariah the elect of the tribe of Dan the elect of the tribe of Naphtali all those what about all those say?

Well, they will be raised from the dead Which is what God promised Israel's his covenant with them when he takes away sin in the single day and removes and perfects his people

And they will no longer ever again be removed from his promises or land. There will be no threat.

There will be no sin There will be no more death. There won't be any of it and all of that goes back to Genesis Every every single bit of it goes right back to Genesis if you don't understand

Genesis 3 You will not understand Paul and Romans. I'm firmly firmly convinced

Yeah, yeah go ahead Mouse I Would just ask back to Stacey I know he said he left for the night, but I would just ask back to him

Was physical death a result of sin? hmm, so Miles when

I've asked full preterist this about physical death, like what is the reason give me explanatory?

Reasoning why physical death exists, you know, and this is personal. This is anecdotal, but they said the

Bible doesn't tell us It's just a reality now. I thought wow your worldview can't tell us why physical death is a thing now

I will say this old earth creationist will talk about, you know God had purpose and physical death like so much before, you know humans came on the scene, but With how full preterist interpret that the heavens and the earth you give up any meaningful?

understanding and the the iron sharpened iron in Genesis between young earth and oldest creationist that has to be

Israel right that has to Be covenantal and you you can't look to Genesis as a as a historical account

You know, I mean and so miles what I'm saying is I've asked the same question and I get crickets we don't know why physical death is a part of reality,

I guess just because God wanted that way just cuz Yeah Preston physical death is a natural as apple pie.

It was never part of the curse It was never part of the reception of sin It had nothing to do our biological death has literally nothing to do with sin or anything else

It's spiritual death and only spiritual death that Hyperpreterist to find these types of things

Therefore there doesn't need to be any release or removal of physical death because that's not the problem

Spiritual death is that's their whole emphasis and and but that's Gnosticism again.

This is just it's not Christianity Our whole lives are spent around insurance and protecting our kids and wear your helmet put your seatbelt on don't go out in the street

Because we don't like death Where our whole life is spent around trying to look better feel better act better get your health eat, right?

Don't smoke. Don't you don't do this because you know you want that's not healthy. That's not good for you That's where your helmet put your seatbelt on don't go out in the street.

That'll put your eye out You'll break your neck get off that ladder. Let's not say Death and the

Bible doesn't say anything about this I'm not buying that and when first Corinthians says that For as by a man came death by a man also has come the resurrection of the dead

Look Adam introduced physical death and Jesus baby reverses the curse, right?

We can have spiritual life in him and he promises us to be resurrected Unto eternal life in fellowship with him for all eternity not for infinity, right?

Dr. Frost Absolutely amazing. It's amazing to me because that means that All the people in hospitals and stuff that I've prayed that their cancer would get well

And then they ended up dying right because of cancer, but they're believers. They're Christians By his stripes you will be healed

That's a promise and God is going to heal them and they will be cancer -free and my prayer that I asked that will be answered

Their bodies will be raised pristine glorified God's going to raise them from the dead cancer free

Yeah Well, I'll be answered in this life but Jesus says whatsoever you ask in my name that which you ask you will receive and I can't go out in this life thinking.

Well, God just didn't answer my prayers on all these cancer patients. He didn't answer He is see that's where my faith comes in is that you will heal this body of cancer

One way or the other God you will win and cancer will lose

Now I'll get preaching here because that's okay Hope it fills my soul with hope instead of despair and like oh gosh cancer one again

No cancer never wins. We never die If you believe in me, you will never die.

See Oh Anyway, but doctor There is a there is a false doctrine described as a type of cancer and gangrene

Yes, I think the resurrection already happened So, hey y 'all y 'all been so gracious with your time with me.

Thank you miles. Forgive me, man I had the timer but I did turn it off a few minutes ago but I know

I know well I want to give y 'all a final word if you want to share anything to the audience Miles if you want to plug your channel where people can find you your work with seven

Adventist Please tell us again. Please tell the crowd Yeah, you can

YouTube answering advent ism Just put it into the search bar.

The channel will pop up the essentially the target Audience for the channel is aimed at Christians not necessarily 7th

Adventist It is to educate the wider body of Christ on 7th Adventism Why you should care why you need to understand these things and actually take the gospel to 7th

Adventist along with the true and living God Because they desperately need it but doing that from an outsider's perspective is going to be a super heavy lift

And so being a former third -generation 7th Adventist, I've done the heavy lifting for you And so I essentially put a bite -sized pieces of content as well as long format pieces of content to essentially get the wider body of Christ caught up to speed and to know what points to address and where you can just immediately insert and go instead of having to wade through all the confusion of the definitions and not know what they mean and that sort of thing

And context is king That is true And You guys have said it

I don't need to share anything else, but it was wonderful meeting miles. I certainly will look into that My my stepfather was

Adventist. He wonderful man. Just very Missing very much.

He was a he was a good if You ever had a step of poster child for if you have to have a stepfather, you know

He would be the guy to have you know, it would be the example of one to have but he

And he wavered in his Adventism. He you know, he was evangelical and Saw some of it particularly the

LNG white stuff He was starting to see that, you know Maybe they were banking too much on that and I've noticed that ETS that their

Adventist are allowed at ETS Evangelical theological society so And I've noticed a drifting a trying to get away from earlier

LNG white stuff to get more into mainstream evangelicals Kind of an understanding of respect.

So I'd be interested later on Maybe corresponding and how you've noticed some shifts where they're trying to get away from that more into an evangelical crowd

Yeah, yes, well hey, thank y 'all so much for coming on to the apologetic dog

I gotta have y 'all on again. And so god bless y 'all. Hope y 'all have a rest the evening and miles I hope you're not in trouble, man

All right. See y 'all later Well, I just want to thank everybody for tuning in to the apologetic dog

Just want to ask you to please like and subscribe to this channel that just helps the

YouTube algorithm that helps me grow my ministry I have a patreon now I have a link somewhere on my youtube page

And if you want to support the ministry through an ongoing giving through patreon has been really cool. Have a few patreons out there

Thank you And if you want to give a one time to the apologetic dog I have other avenues like Venmo and PayPal and things like that.

This is Lord lays you on your heart to do that I would appreciate it. And before we sign off.

I just want to remind you On Monday next week I will be participating in a

Church of Christ debate and we're going to be talking about the doctrine of Justification and where does water baptism fit in that and so I'll be taking the negative

He'll try to make the case that water baptism is necessary for our justification before God It's not but I look forward to that and getting to meet mr.

Gavin James there And so I also want to let you know that in September I will be

Speaking at an eschatology conference and I've spoken at conferences before but never on eschatology and I get to talk about the resurrection of the dead

So, please keep me in prayer For that because I need all the prayer that I can get