Text of Hebrews 1:8, Jehovah's Witnesses, Molinism and More!

Hebrews 1:8, the Textual Variant, and the Deity of Christ

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

That is the phone number 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 here on the dividing line today. It is Thursday afternoon 4 o 'clock Mountain Standard Time. Whatever time it is where you are. You can always go to www .aomin .org and There is a clock right there that tells you exactly what time it is here so you can always be on time.

That's why I enjoy mocking everyone who comes into the chat channel About two minutes after the program's over. When's the dividing line on today? And I just that's very fun. Anyhow, certainly open for your phone calls today.

It's 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 have just a couple of things we have Dan Barker queued up here ready to continue with his list of alleged contradictions and We also have start off the program today. I Had the privilege of preaching at the Phoenix Foreign Baptist Church over the weekend I spoke on Hebrews 1 5 and 6 in the morning and then 7 through 14 in the evening and in that process I I Felt ran across some pretty exciting stuff for me.

Anyways things I had not seen before. It's one of the good things about getting to preach verse by verse through a book or something like that is that you are forced to look at the text in new ways and So often you can look even in depth at a text you can translate a text you can look in depth at various aspects of a text but it is the attempt to preach The text that so often Causes you to see things you have not seen before specifically I saw in the citation of Deuteronomy 32 43 By the writer to the Hebrews from the Greek Septuagint yet another reference to Jesus as Yahweh and that's relevant to what I want to talk about just here at the beginning while the legions of callers line up at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and That is I was directed by someone in channel to actually it wasn't anybody in channel I I was I received an email through the church's website from a Golden Gate student and So that's how he got hold of me and so it was forwarded to me through the church and the student Included a link to a YouTube video now generally I don't follow up on too many things like this I just don't really have time to as it was I was just Just a few moments ago.

I finally finished up that CRI article took me forever. It's easy to get distracted these days, but anyway I I did go ahead and enter the link and Here was a rather interesting fellow I didn't take the time to look at his other videos and stuff, but I could tell he was an anti-trinitarian And a few things like that, but it was this Interesting video where you're using a camera to Shoot the text of a Greek New Testament, and you're sort of doing basic translation along the way.

And then he had a big blow up of a page from p46 as I recall and Which is a papyrus I forget what it was a papyrus or something anyway. It was a 10 minute almost 10 minute video. All to make the point that there are two interesting textual variants in Hebrews 1 8 and he was basically defending the watchtowers rendering of Hebrews 1 8 as God is your throne on the basis of the textual variant well It can be defended that way.

I would be interested to see if the society Has ever defended that way. I haven't had time to look into that. The society that is what's our bottom track society? Could try to defend their translation By appealing to this textual variant there is a way for them to do that.

But I I just am NOT maybe they've started doing over the past 10 years. I really I think my watchtower and awake subscriptions expired about 10 12 years ago, and I've never gotten them back, and so I I don't really keep up with what's going on the society these days other than my contacts people and To hear a few things here and there.

But before I would have found it somewhat unusual for them to have gone that direction. They don't like discussing a lot of textual variations simply because that raises a lot of questions that They're not necessarily certain.

I think that they want their people answering in essence in Hebrews chapter 1 verse 8. What you have is a quotation from psalm 45 6 in the Septuagint with two possible differences. Looking at the Nessie Allen text it says but to the Sun your throne O God is forever and ever and The Scepter of uprightness, it's it's not the normal term for righteousness.

It's you Thuta toss which has more of an essence of Right behavior Good behavior than then the kaya soon. I would so the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of. And the very last word of the text is where the major variant is.

The first variant is the word and and the righteous scepter and the scepter of righteousness. Some manuscripts do not have that chi and then the major variant is the last preposition and the preposition is the.

In the Nessie Allen text is sue which would be your kingdom but the variant is out to which would be his kingdom and. So this particular video was Basically saying that it took nine minutes to explain that there's sexual variant here and that p46 says out to rather than sue and so I Took a look at it and I found it rather interesting.

It's always good to know where these folks might go there are Jehovah's Witnesses who read the you know, the textual apparatus of the Nessie Allen just like anybody else does and It is interesting to note what various scholars say about this.

Metzger in his commentary Says the following although the reading out to which has early and good support specifically p46 Sinaiticus and Vaticanus all of him be May seem to be preferable because and why would it be preferable?

Because it differs from the reading of the Old Testament passage that is being quoted Psalm 45 7 Septuagint 44 7 the second part where sue appears is the the verse. Divisions are different in the subject than they are in the New Testament.

So 45 6 is beginning 45 7 the continuation. To which on this point of view presumably the mass of New Testament witnesses have been assimilated a Majority of the committee was more impressed. Now. Let me stop there and explain why why is that an argument?

Well, it goes like this when you have a quotation from the Old Testament, especially from the Greek Septuagint and there is an established text of the Greek Septuagint and There's a variant there from there from that it would seem Far more likely that a later scribe familiar with the Greek Septuagint even having the Greek Septuagint at hand Would harmonize any text to the Greek Septuagint itself then vice versa if it if it originally read sue His young sorry your kingdom.

Then why would anybody change it since the Septuagint reads that way? There just doesn't seem a be a reason for the the change and so that's the argument. But the committee did not accept that argument as the best argument because they were more impressed by the following argument that is a by the weight and variety of the external evidence supporting sue which in other words is.

And this isn't sue as an SUE as in our channel s Sigma Macron oops alone sue a second person pronoun there you. The weight and variety the external evidence supporting that reading in other words P46 Sinaiticus and B are pretty much Representatives of just one text type and so all the other text types have the sue in it.

And so they're saying sometimes you need to look that at the possibility that if you only have one text type Supporting a reading that that might mean that it's not as strong a reading as it might otherwise be and be by the internal difficulty of construing out to thus if one reads out to that is His kingdom the words half a awesome must be taken not as evocative and interpretation as preferred by most exegetes.

But as the subject or predicate nominative an interpretation that is generally regarded as highly improbable even if one assumes that chi Which is absent from the Hebrew and the subject of the psalm was inserted by the author with the set purpose of making two separate quotations with verse 8a and the second person 8b in the third person the Strangeness of the shift in persons is only slightly reduced now.

That sounds a little bit confusing but I think that'll be cleared up a little bit if I go ahead and read you a second item here and That is read from comforts commentary on this passage and he takes a different view than Metzger does and This is of course available in our bookstore at a women the Lord.

The TR and Nestle all in United Bible Society reading yields this translation of the verse. But to the son he says your throne of God is forever and ever in the scepter of righteousness scepter of your kingdom.

The variant yields one of two translations but of the son he says your throne of God is forever and ever in the scepter of righteousness scepter of his kingdom or. But the son he says God is your throne forever and ever and the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of his his that is God's kingdom.

The context makes it clear that God is speaking to his son. Thus God the father addresses his son as God. This is the TR and you reading where Hatheas must be understood as evocative. The variant readings.

The variant reading allows for two different renderings the most unusual of which is noted above as the second option for the variant God is your throne, etc. See the RSV margin NEB margin. But such a reading violates the natural sense of the Greek and obscures Christ deity.

God calls his son God and then declares that his throne is everlasting because of his righteousness. The next verse substantiates this affirmation of the son's deity where again the father addresses a son with evocative Oh God as in the NEB as FF Bruce Puts it quote our author may well have understood God and evocative twice over in this quotation.

The last clause could easily be construed construed. Therefore Oh God thy God has anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows and quote the other rendering of the variant and quote of Bruce not in quote of Comfort the other ending the variant is listed first.

The problem with this reading is that it involves a strange shift of persons. But there is a way to compensate for this awkwardness if we understand that the author of Hebrews inserted Chi Which is not in the original text of Psalm 45 6 through 7 in order to break apart the two lines of the quote as follows.

You're a throne. Oh God is forever and ever the scepter of his righteousness is a scepter of his kingdom. This restructuring does not completely solve the problem of the shift in persons yet. It supplies one argument for the variant, but there are two more arguments.

First the three earliest extant manuscripts p46. All of them be support the variant. Second. It is the more difficult reading about scribes seeing sue your in the text change it to out to his. Contrarily, it is easy to understand why a scribe would change out to to sue for this is the pronoun which appears four times in These two verses.

Furthermore This is the pronoun of the subject reading of Psalm 45 6 strongly suggesting that later scribes made the earliest reading conformed to the Septuagint. Given that the variant has the support of p46 and all of them be and that is more difficult.

And and that it is the more difficult reading it is likely the original reading which is found Westcott and Horton is followed by some versions such as the NASB NEB and New Jerusalem Bible. So there you're given two different perspectives on the same the same text now in essence, I think one of the things to keep in mind is that When you look at the manuscripts Only the three that that make the change in the pronoun.

When you also look at the variant for the word Chi or and which was mentioned by comfort there. Those three manuscripts have The word Chi there it is deleted by others to again. Make that consistent with the Greek Septuagint, but the same three manuscripts and others for example Codex, Alexandrinus 0 2 4 3 33 70 39 few others.

They all have the word Chi in it. And if Chi was there then it would break it up and make sense as to why? The second pronoun would be changed into out who at that particular point in time now. Again.

Does that mean that we we can't make reference to Hebrews 1a? This is what one of the one of the claims being made in the Video that I saw on YouTube was well You know that that just means we can't even look at this as being relevant because there's a textual variant in it.

Well, I don't think that's the case at all. Because this Hebrews 1 8 is a part of an argument and what I was trying to communicate in my sermons on Sunday. Was that that argument starts before this there is a consistency of this argument there is a theme running through the argument and When you especially notice what the author has done in his citation of Deuteronomy 3243 in verse 6 he has already made Identification of the one who is being worshipped as Jehovah as Yahweh.

He's making an application to the Sun let all the angels of God worship him in 1 6 was originally about Yahweh and then of course verse 8 is smack dab between that and the lengthy discussion. The lengthy citation of Psalm 102 25 to 27 and verses 10 through 12, which is clearly about Yahweh.

And it's about attributes specifically about Yahweh that cannot be applied in anyone else. So to insert Verse 8 in here that would not have reference to the deity of Christ and would not be taken in that way.

Would be highly unusual. It just wouldn't make any sense. It would disrupt when you when you make an author contradict himself. You've probably misunderstood the author that's that's I think a fairly safe rule of exegesis to follow and.

So I thought I'd start off with that and just you know managed to confuse everybody. In that particular process but looking at that eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and.

Questions About Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Memorial Supper

Let's let's go to James. Hi James. How are you? Hello. Hello. Hello. Yes, sir, as I can.

Alright, I I with a Bible study group here in BC and We had a question concerning Jehovah's Witnesses. We had a one of our members Was handed an invitation by Some JWs to attend this service. They're having I guess called why we remember the death of Jesus.

Right. It's the.

Remember in service. They'll have. I believe what next Thursday.

Yeah, I believe so, right. We were just basically wondering what exactly the service is about. Sure and Whether or not you would think it would be at all profitable for us to go there in To possibly talk to them or challenge them in some way concerning their beliefs.

It's not like we're trying to like be abrasive or anything. We're just we've been out witnessing on the streets and run into them on several occasions right up. Right, and so we're just wondering, you know, you know, what sort of setting this services?

Yeah.

Well, it is it's a fascinating service. I the only reason I haven't gone is almost every year We have been out doing witnessing during that time during the Mormon Easter pageant. But it would be something interesting for you.

Just be aware that it's going to be really really unusual and and here's why the Watchtower Society gathers all of its its followers and People who are interested in their in their beliefs on the Thursday of Easter week on 14 Nissan and they have what's called the memorial supper and What you will see happen, especially I notice here.

It says up in Canada unless you're really really close to some of the major Watchtower areas maybe over toward New York or something like that is. You will see them gather and they cannot they can't gather just in their kingdom halls they Because they have fewer buildings and they have adherence because they rotate congregations through which is an effective thing to do they have to rent other places when they all get together at the same time and so you will see a larger gathering than normal and What will take place in the memorial supper is That the elements will be passed the the bread and the wine will be passed through the congregation.

But no one will partake of the elements so the bread will go through and it'll go to the back of the room in the same shape that it was at the front of the room and the same thing with the cup and the reason for this is because the memorial supper is only for those who are of the anointed class only those who are in the New Covenant and They're only in fact, this is exactly how the society determines each year.

How many people there are that claim to be of the anointed class. Is they keep track of who partakes now if you were to? Come and they don't know who you are. And you were to partake they wouldn't count you because you're not one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

You have to have been really involved Jehovah's Witnesses For many years before you would be counted in this in fact the old teaching was and I don't know if they've changed this now. But the old teaching was that God stopped calling people into the anointed class in 1935 and so obviously if you were old enough to have been called into the anointed class in 1935 you're not exactly a spring chicken anymore and so they each of the congregations collects that information of how many people gave a credible witness of partaking of the of the bread and the wine and then they Report that to Brooklyn headquarters and at the end of the year when they put out their statistics in their their numbers.

They have in there. How many partook and that's how you know how many people still claim the anointed class here on earth today? And so that is that is what you would observe now obviously. If you were to attend that A I would not Try to cause a scene by partaking or a heck that it would never partake in a kingdom hall anyways because they have the wrong God.

The wrong gospel, but it certainly would raise all sorts of wonderful opportunities. To address the issue of the fact that the society has a grossly unbiblical view of salvation. Specifically they have this anointed class that are in the New Covenant.

But then they have the great crowd which is nine nine point nine nine nine percent of all Jehovah's Witnesses Who are not in the New Covenant? But they only partake in the blessings of the New Covenant as they have fellowship with those who are in the New Covenant.

So as they in essence subject themselves to the governing body and the ruling elders in Brooklyn then they By that participation that fellowship with the anointed class. Gain some of the benefits. But the problem is this three-class system where you have the anointed you have the great crowd and you have all the rest of us.

Is simply not biblical the biblical perspective is you are either in Christ or you're outside of Christ. You're either in the flesh or in the spirit. You're either spiritually dead or spiritually alive.

There isn't this middle group. That's partially justified or something like that. And so it would raise all sorts of opportunities to challenge in the conversations you might have after observing the service this idea that you can be a Person who is right with Jehovah God But you're not indwell by the Spirit of God.

You're not adopted as one of the children of God. You can go to Romans 8 14 as many as are led by the Spirit of God. These are the children of God and challenge this whole limitation of the New Covenant to the anointed class, which just makes absolutely no biblical sense whatsoever, so There would be that opportunity if you wanted to go that direction.

Yeah, that's kind of what we were thinking. So would that be the method you suggest. Like we're just wondering if you think there's a particularly pertinent way to go about.

Talking to them in relation to the service itself. Yeah. Well, yeah, like I said those particular issues regarding The the subject of salvation the subject of the the multiple classes that they believe in the nature of justification Either a person has been justified by faith in Christ has peace with God is a part of the New Covenant united with Christ Adopted in the family of God and dwelt by the Holy Spirit of God all those issues Which they accept for the anointed class in essence, but they don't accept for the great crowd.

I mean, I've I wish I had the the reference available to me. I could look it up with enough time, but Right toward the end of my time when I was really studying the witnesses. They had come up with this idea of being partially justified and That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I mean that's that's like being partially pregnant or something like that. You either are you're not and so that That whole area it really opens up an opportunity to present The gospel in opposition to their position.

I remember for Jehovah's Witnesses their view of Soteriology in the gospel is so not only intimately connected to but in fact defined by their view of eschatology that it would be important to have some idea of what they believe about The 1914 prophecy which is slowly being done away with but the idea idea of Armageddon and the invisible presence of Christ and and Because honestly, there's there's more discussion in the watchtower over That subject of eschatology and prophecy and things like that then there is discussion of justification or or the the primary elements of The gospel that we would be focused upon in reading Paul.

Okay. Well, thank you very much. Okay. Thanks. Thanks James. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. Alrighty, we had a little bit of a problem with the connection there. That's why we had to keep potting James down.

It sounded like he was somewhere far far away. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. That will be coming up. I guess it is is Easter a week from this. Wow. Okay. So that means a week from today will be the Memorial Supper of Jehovah's Witnesses and if anything I hope it is a reminder to all of you and listening in our audience today That you should rejoice if you are not part of Jehovah's Witnesses.

The fact matter is You meet with those folks you talk with those folks. Very often they know the Bible better than our own people do and yet they have been given a false gospel that simply does not give anyone joy and To attend one of those meetings and something I'm gonna have to do it.

I'm gonna have to go to one of those Memorial suppers. I haven't I've talked many extra Jehovah's Witnesses who who have described them for me, but Just the description of what it must be like to just pass Those elements by is so indicative so illustrative I should say of the Just the partial gospel the false gospel of Jehovah's Witnesses they don't have Really an understanding whatsoever and and it's because of this well, it's because of where they came from.

I mean, let's let's let's realize it the Russellite movement grew out of the failed Millerite movement from which also came the Seventh-day Adventist. And it was all focused upon prophecy eschatology date setting initially.

When when the watchtower was started? The idea was that Christ had returned invisibly in 1874. This was how they Made sense of the failed Millerite movement and this this belief still exists among Seventh-day Adventists that yeah Something did happen then.

Miller wasn't completely wrong. But what it was was an invisible presence and the Seventh-day Adventists have this concept of The investigative judgment where God I'm sorry where Jesus at that time entered into his heavenly temple and since then he has been examining the lives of Everyone who has believed in him for salvation to see if they lived lives worthy enough for him to apply his atoning sacrifice To them that's the grave false teaching of Seventh-day Adventism.

And I'm very glad that there are some Seventh-day Adventists who are beginning to Abandon LNG White's false teachings and especially that false teaching on that subject. Because that's just that's just a complete and utter overthrow of the gospel of grace.

There's no question about it and why it would take Jesus this long. To go through that process is another reason why I think there's slowly abandoning it for obvious reasons as well. But the watchtower came out of that same Prophecy end time scenario type thing and so for from the I think what was the first again going completely off top of my head here, I think the first watchtower is what 1878 something around in there and What you'll find in there is that they will be teaching That Christ returned visibly in 1874 and that 40 years later one generation letter later It'll be Armageddon.

What's 40 years later 1914 and so up to that time I mean there's I remember a specific watchtower quote that any spiritually minded man knows that Christ returned visibly in 1874 now the Jehovah's Witness standing at your door doesn't know that a vast majority of them have no idea.

That that was the original teaching and that when 1914 came and went in 1914 was obviously a I mean They were real excited about it. World War one starts. Looks like it's the end of all things, you know, the Great War and all this and nation moving against nation and etc, etc.

But then 1914 passes and so they're looking for 1915 and then they do some adjustments and it's 1918 and then it's 1925 and Then in the time period after that, I think there was a some scare about 1943 as well, but somewhere in that time frame they changed the 1874 teaching to 1914 and so that's when the invisible presence started so now you've got another generation after that and initially it was yet to be 10 years old in 1914 and now it's you had a twinkle in your daddy's eye in 1914.

Because there ain't too many folks left from 1914. Let's put it that way. But you know, they're they're obviously running out of time. That's why they're now de-emphasizing the 1914 prophecy it used to be in every awake magazine in the banner head and inside and now it's gone and They're they're coming up with new groups to try to you know, keep things going, you know patch things together But that's what happens when you have man-made theology 877 -753 -334 -1.

We've got one person online. We'll take that call after our break and Your calls as well at 877 -753 -334 -1. We'll be right back.

How the pilgrims progress is not an easy way. It's a journey to the sun Day by day. It's a walk of praise.

Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools. Users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources.

Pastors you will appreciate the phrase matching tool Which will allow you to find all of the verses containing phrases Similar to your search verse giving you greater depth and keener insight during sermon preparation.

Seminary professors and students will be enriched by the way Bible works 8 shows the most common words in the pericope Book or chapter plus provides a wider range of formatting options and faster access to copying preferences.

Scholars your research just got easier with the army external resources manager a handy tool to collect organize and display resource files from your Computer as well as the internet. Dr. James White says Bible works is the best Bible software available.

I have used Bible works software for years and each new release has brought many new and useful tools to the program. This is the program that runs 24 7 on my office computer and it is the one that's running on my laptop when I engage In debates it is simply the number one research tool for anyone doing serious exegesis of the text.

For over 15 years Bible works has assisted all users in their study of the original languages and That enables you to do one thing focus on the text and that translates to focusing on the truth. Order your copy of Bible works at a omen org and for a limited time You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate.

The Trinity is a basic teaching of the Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us. James White's book The Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters.

It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching Leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian and Admit today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit.

The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the Trinity. Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike.

Highly recommended. You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org.

Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce. In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man-centered self-help program The need for a no-nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater.

I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin. Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses.

Man is sinful and God is holy. That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior. We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well. Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you.

Well, thank you very much. Mr. Pierce I Can't complain about my bumpers. There you go. That's because your bumpers are older than dirt. That's why I gave you I gave you a CD out there. Just burn it on there.

Let's make ourselves some bumper music. Well, thank you ever so much. I Wondered why he was grinning in there. He was. I'm just not gonna play you don't like it fine. People get older and they get a little irascible.

There's no two ways about it. It's 3 3 3 4 1. Let's talk to Robert down in the Big D. Hi Robert.

Doing good. Well, hey, yeah, we just had you out here last February or this February at Countryside Bible Church.

I seem to recall it just vaguely. Yes. Yeah.

My question is um, I have a friend of mine from a church I went to back in California and actually it's the church that uh George Bryson's a member of and I left that church after your ministry straightened out my soteriology and I've been chatting with him a little bit because he teaches an apologetics class at that church and He's uh, he comes from a Molinistic perspective.

He really likes William Lane Craig and That and I actually he was surprised to hear that Mullen was a Jesuit priest and he didn't know that but he's describing to that as but. Anyways, I was wondering if um, you could counting I don't know I haven't had time to really do a whole lot of research on it like I'd like but they bring up or you'll 23 text and the What is a Matthew 11 23 in Jesus?

And I just wanted to get your take on that because it sounds you know The the thrust of it had, you know, Sodom miracles that you have they would have repented and so, you know. You know my mind that alone and I think it's obviously inconsistent with that idea.

I just kind of wanted to get your thoughts on that.

Well, there are a number of good reference sources for a rather thorough refutation theologically and biblically of the concept of middle knowledge as it was applied by Molina for those not familiar with what we're talking about Molinism is a term used to refer to the Philosophical and it is a philosophical paradigm developed by Louis de Molina a Jesuit leader Who in direct response to the leader of the Jesuits Ignatius Loyola? developed this mechanism of in essence fighting the Reformation and that was the Reformation was emphasizing the sovereignty of God the sovereignty of God's grace and Roman Catholic soteriology cannot survive truly In the face of that kind of proclamation the sovereignty of God because it is a sacramental system Very much dependent upon the free will actions of mankind.

To obtain grace the means of the sacraments now that does not mean that there have not been Roman Catholics since then who have tried to develop mixtures and have had higher views of God's grace than others but the fact the matter is that you talk to the vast majority Roman Catholics and You start talking about God's grace you get the same response I got out of a graduate student years and years ago.

It came to interview me and When I spoke of the freedom of God's grace to save who he choose to save That person's response to me was I would never worship a god like that to which I said, that's the whole point but anyway Molina developed this idea and Many it's interesting.

There are a number of Armenians who do not like Molinism Because it actually in some ways and if you think about it presents a view of God's governance that is actually In one sense more micro manage managed.

Then then the reform perspective is what I mean by that is it's the idea that God has this special kind of knowledge Where he knows exactly what any free creature would do given any set of circumstances now The the the real Arminian says that just isn't the case.

He can know in general what creatures are going to do, but if a creature is truly free sometimes creatures do the most unexpected things. And I think most of the open theists Would certainly argue along those lines Against this idea and would find Molinism as a very shallow attempt to save libertarian freedom, but the idea is that Since God has this kind of middle knowledge Then he is able to order events in such a way as to always get from the free action of the creature the result that he wants and when you think about having to order Events in such a way as to make currently six billion free creatures do exactly what you want them to do.