Text of Hebrews 1:8, Jehovah's Witnesses, Molinism and More!

Alpha & Omega Ministries iconAlpha & Omega Ministries

8 views

Comments are disabled.

00:12
Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
00:19
The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
00:27
Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
00:33
Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
00:38
White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
00:43
United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.
00:50
Here is James white That is the phone number eight seven seven seven five three three three four one here on the dividing line today
00:58
It is Thursday afternoon four o 'clock Mountain Standard Time Whatever time it is where you are.
01:04
You can always go to www .aomin .org and There is a clock right there that tells you exactly what time it is here so you can always be on time
01:13
That's why I enjoy mocking everyone who comes into the chat channel About two minutes after the program's over.
01:21
When's the dividing line on today? And I just that's very fun Anyhow, certainly open for your phone calls today.
01:28
It's seven seven seven five three three three four one have just a couple of things we have Dan Barker queued up here ready to continue with his list of alleged contradictions and We also have start off the program today.
01:44
I Had the privilege of preaching at the Phoenix Perform Baptist Church over the weekend
01:49
I spoke on Hebrews 1 5 and 6 in the morning and then 7 through 14 in the evening and in that process
01:59
I I Felt ran across some pretty exciting stuff for me.
02:04
Anyways things I had not seen before It's one of the good things by getting to preach verse by verse through a book or something like that is that you are forced to look at the text in new ways and So often you can look even in depth at a text you can translate a text you can look in depth at various aspects of a text but it is the attempt to preach
02:27
The text that so often causes you to see things you have not seen before specifically
02:33
I saw in the citation of Deuteronomy 32 43 By the writer to the
02:39
Hebrews from the Greek Septuagint yet another reference to Jesus as Yahweh and that's relevant to what
02:47
I want to talk about just here at the beginning while the legions of callers line up at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and And that is
02:57
I was directed by someone in channel to actually it wasn't anybody in channel I I was
03:03
I received an email through the church's website from a Golden Gate student and So that's how he got hold of me and so it was forwarded to me through the church and the student
03:17
Included a link to a YouTube video now Generally, I don't follow up on too many things like this
03:23
I just don't really have time to as it was I was just Just a few moments ago.
03:28
I finally finished up that CRI article took me forever. It's easy to get distracted these days, but anyway
03:36
I I did go ahead and enter the link and Here was a rather interesting fellow
03:44
I didn't take the time to look at his other videos and stuff, but I could tell he was an anti -trinitarian
03:49
And a few things like that, but it was this Interesting video where you're using a camera to Shoot the text of a
03:59
Greek New Testament, and you're sort of doing basic translation along the way And then he had a big blow up of a page from p46 as I recall and Which is a papyrus
04:14
I forget what it was a papyrus or something anyway It was a 10 minute almost 10 minute video
04:20
All to make the point that there are two interesting textual variants in Hebrews 1 8 and he was basically defending the watchtowers rendering of Hebrews 1 8 as God is your throne on the basis of the textual variant well
04:38
It can be defended that way. I would be interested to see if the society
04:44
Has ever defended that way I haven't had time to look into that The society that is what's our bottom track society
04:52
Could try to defend their translation By appealing to this textual variant there is a way for them to do that But I I just am not maybe they've started doing over the past 10 years.
05:05
I really I think my watchtower And awake subscriptions expired about 10 12 years ago, and I've never gotten them back and so I I don't really keep up with what's going on the society these days other than my contacts of people and To hear a few things here and there
05:24
But before I would have found it somewhat unusual for them to have gone that direction they don't like discussing a lot of textual variations simply because That raises a lot of questions that They're not necessarily certain.
05:38
I think that they want their people answering in essence in Hebrews chapter 1 verse 8
05:46
What you have is a quotation from Psalm 45 6 in the
05:52
Septuagint with two possible differences Looking at the
05:59
Nessie Allen text it says but to the son your throne
06:05
O God is forever and ever and The scepter of uprightness, it's it's not the normal term for righteousness
06:13
It's you Thuta toss which has more of an essence of right behavior good behavior than then the kaya soon a would so the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of And the very last word of the text is where the major variant is the first variant is the word and and the righteous scepter and the scepter of righteousness
06:44
Some manuscripts do not have that Chi, and then the major variant is the last preposition and the preposition is the
06:59
In the Nessie Allen text is sue which would be your kingdom, but the variant is out to which would be his kingdom and So this particular video was basically saying that it took nine minutes to explain that there's sexual variant here and that p46 says out to rather than sue and so I Took a look at it, and I found it rather interesting
07:33
It's always good to know where these folks might go there are Jehovah's Witnesses who read the you know the textual apparatus of the
07:42
Nessie Alan just like anybody else does and It is interesting to note what various scholars say about this
07:51
Metzger in his commentary Says the following although the reading out to which has early and good support specifically p46
08:01
Sinaiticus and Vaticanus all of and be may seem to be preferable because and why would it be preferable because It differs from the reading of the
08:11
Old Testament passage that is being quoted Psalm 45 7 Septuagint 44 7 the second part where sue appears is the the verse
08:20
Divisions are different in the subject than they are in the New Testament so 45 6 is beginning 45 7 the continuation to which on this point of view presumably the mass of New Testament witnesses have been assimilated a
08:32
Majority the committee was more impressed now. Let me stop there and explain. Why why is that an argument well it goes like this?
08:41
when you have a quotation from the Old Testament especially from the Greek Septuagint and there is an established text of the
08:47
Greek Septuagint and There's a variant there from there from that it would seem Far more likely that a later scribe familiar with the
08:56
Greek Septuagint even having the Greek Septuagint at hand Would harmonize any text to the
09:02
Greek Septuagint itself then vice versa if it if it originally read sue His I'm sorry your kingdom
09:12
Then why would anybody change it since the Septuagint reads that way there? Just doesn't seem a be a reason for the the change and so that's the argument
09:21
But the committee did not accept that argument as the best argument because they were more impressed by the following argument that is a
09:31
By the weight and variety of the external evidence supporting sue which in other words is
09:37
And this isn't sue as an SUE as in our channel Sigma Macron oops alone sue a second person
09:45
Pronoun there you The weight and variety the external evidence supporting that reading in other words
09:55
P46 Sinaiticus and B are pretty much Representatives of just one text type and so all the other text types have the sue in it
10:04
And so they're saying sometimes you need to look that at the possibility that if you only have one text type
10:10
Supporting a reading that that might mean that it's not as strong a reading as it might otherwise be and be by the internal difficulty of construing out to thus if one reads out to that is
10:28
His kingdom the words half a awesome must be taken not as evocative an interpretation as preferred by most exegetes
10:35
But as the subject or predicate nominative an interpretation that is generally regarded as highly improbable even if one assumes that Chi Which is absent from the
10:45
Hebrew and the subject of the psalm was inserted by the author With the set purpose of making two separate quotations with verse 8a and the second person 8b in the third person
10:54
The strangeness of the shift in persons is only slightly reduced now That sounds a little bit confusing but I think that'll be cleared up a little bit if I go ahead and read you a second item here and That is read from comforts commentary on this
11:14
Passage and he takes a different view than Metzger does and This is of course available in our bookstore at a women
11:20
The TR and Nestle all in United Bible Society reading yields this translation of the verse
11:26
But to the Sun he says your throne of God is forever and ever in the scepter of righteous scepter of your kingdom the variant yields one of two translations but of the
11:33
Sun he says your throne of God is forever and ever in the scepter of righteous the scepter of his kingdom or But the Sun he says
11:38
God is your throne forever and ever and the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of his his that is God's kingdom the context makes it clear that God is speaking to his son.
11:46
Thus God the father addresses his son as God This is the TRNU reading where Hatheas must be understood as evocative the variant readings
11:54
The variant reading allows for two different renderings the most unusual of which is noted above as the second option for the variant
12:00
God is your throne, etc See the RSV margin NEB margin but such a reading violates the natural sense of the
12:07
Greek and obscures Christ deity God calls his son God and then declares that his Throne is everlasting because of his righteousness the next verse substantiates this affirmation of the
12:15
Sun's deity where again the father addresses a son with evocative Oh God as in the NEB as FF Bruce Puts it quote our author may well have understood
12:23
God and evocative twice over in this quotation The last clause could easily be construed construed
12:28
Therefore Oh God thy God has anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows and quote the other rendering of the variant and quote of Bruce not in quote of Comfort the other ending the variant is listed first The problem with this reading is that it involves a strange shift of persons
12:45
But there is a way to compensate for this awkwardness if we understand that the author of Hebrews inserted Chi Which is not in the original text of Psalm 45 6 through 7 in order to break apart the two lines of the quote as follows
12:56
You're a throne. Oh God is forever and ever the scepter of his righteousness is a scepter of his kingdom This restructuring does not completely solve the problem of the shift in persons yet It supplies one argument for the variant, but there are two more arguments first the three earliest extant manuscripts p46
13:12
All of them be support the variant second It is the more difficult reading about scribes seeing sue your in the text change it to out to his
13:20
Contrarily, it is easy to understand why a scribe would change out to to sue for this is the pronoun which appears four times in These two verses furthermore
13:28
This is the pronoun of the subject reading of Psalm 45 6 strongly suggesting that later scribes made the earliest reading conformed to the
13:35
Septuagint Given that the variant has the support of p46 and all of them be and that is more different than and that it is the more difficult reading it is likely the original reading which is found in Westcott and Horton is followed by some versions such as the
13:46
NASB NEB and New Jerusalem Bible So there you're given two different perspectives on the same the same text now in essence,
13:59
I think one of the things to keep in mind is that When you look at the manuscripts
14:06
Only the three that that make the change in the pronoun When you also look at the variant for the word
14:15
Chi or and which was mentioned by comfort there Those three manuscripts have
14:22
The word Chi there it is deleted by others to again
14:30
Make that consistent with the Greek Septuagint, but the same three manuscripts and others for example
14:37
Codex, Alexandrinus 0 2 4 3 33 70 39 few others They all have the word
14:43
Chi in it And if Chi was there then it would break it up and make sense as to why? The second pronoun would be changed into out who at that particular point in time now
14:55
Again Does that mean that we we can't make reference to Hebrews 1a? this is what one of the one of the claims being made in the
15:04
Video that I saw on YouTube was well You know that that just means we can't even look at this as being relevant because there's a textual variant in it
15:11
Well, I don't think that's the case at all Because this Hebrews 1 8 is a part of an argument and what
15:18
I was trying to communicate in my sermons on Sunday Was that that argument starts before this there is a consistency of this argument there is a theme running through the argument and When you especially notice what the author has done in his citation of Deuteronomy 3243 in verse 6 he has already made
15:40
Identification of the one who is being worshipped as Jehovah as Yahweh He's making an application to the
15:48
Sun let all the angels of God worship him in 1 6 was originally about Yahweh and then of course verse 8 is smacked out between that and The lengthy discussion the lengthy citation of Psalm 102 25 to 27 and verses 10 through 12
16:05
Which is clearly about Yahweh and it's about attributes specifically about Yahweh that cannot be applied in anyone else.
16:11
So to insert Verse 8 in here that would not have reference to the deity of Christ and would not be taken in that way
16:19
Would be highly unusual. It just wouldn't make any sense It would disrupt when you when you make an author contradict himself.
16:26
You've probably misunderstood the author that's that's I think a fairly safe rule of exegesis to follow and So I thought
16:34
I'd start off with that and just you know managed to confuse everybody In that particular process but looking at that eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and Let's let's go to James.
16:51
Hi James. How are you? Hello. Hello Hello. Yes, sir, as I can alright,
16:58
I I with a Bible study group here in BC and And we had a question concerning Jehovah's Witnesses we had a one of our members
17:12
Was handed an invitation by Some JWs to attend this service.
17:17
They're having I guess called why we remember the death of Jesus Right. It's the
17:24
Remembrance service they'll have I believe what next Thursday Yeah, I believe so, right
17:30
We were just basically wondering what exactly the service is about sure and Whether or not you would think it would be at all profitable for us to go there in To possibly talk to them or challenge them in some way concerning their beliefs
17:45
It's not like we're trying to like be abrasive or anything We're just we've been out witnessing on the streets and run into them on several occasions right up, right?
17:54
And so we're just wondering you know, you know, what sort of setting this services? Yeah Well, it is it's a fascinating service.
18:01
I the only reason I haven't gone is almost every year We have been out doing witnessing during that time during the
18:09
Mormon Easter pageant But it would be something interesting for you. Just be aware that it's going to be really really unusual and and here's why the
18:18
Watchtower Society gathers all of its its followers and People who are interested in their in their beliefs on the
18:27
Thursday of Easter week on 14 Nissan and they have what's called the memorial supper and What you will see happen, especially
18:39
I notice here It says up in Canada unless you're really really close to some of the major Watchtower areas maybe over toward New York or something like that is
18:50
You will see them gather and they cannot they can't gather just in their kingdom halls they Because they have fewer buildings and they have adherence because they rotate congregations through which is an effective thing to do they have to rent other places when they all get together at the same time and so you will see a larger gathering than normal and What will take place in the memorial supper is
19:17
That the elements will be passed the the bread and the wine will be passed through the
19:23
Congregation, but no one will partake of the elements so the bread will go through and it'll go to the back of the room in the same shape that it was at the front of the room and the same thing with the cup and the reason for this is because the memorial supper is only for those who are of the anointed class only those who are in the
19:45
New Covenant and They're only in fact, this is exactly how the society determines each year
19:54
How many people there are that claim to be of the anointed class is they keep track of who partakes now if you were to?
20:01
Come and they don't know who you are And you were to partake they wouldn't count you because you're not one of Jehovah's Witnesses You have to have been really involved with Jehovah's Witnesses For many years before you would be counted in this in fact the old teaching was and I don't know if they've changed this now but the old teaching was that God stopped calling people into the anointed class in 1935 and so obviously if you were old enough to have been called into the anointed class in 1935 you're not exactly a spring chicken anymore and so they each of the congregations collects that information of how many people gave a credible witness of partaking of the of the bread and the wine and then they
20:44
Report that to Brooklyn headquarters and at the end of the year when they put out their statistics in their their numbers
20:52
They have in there How many partook and that's how you know how many people still claim the anointed class here on earth today?
21:00
And so that is that is what you would observe now obviously If you were to attend that A I would not
21:09
Try to cause a scene by partaking or a heck that it would never partake in a Kingdom Hall anyways because they have the wrong
21:15
God They're on gospel, but it certainly would raise all sorts of wonderful opportunities
21:23
To address the issue of the fact that the society has a grossly unbiblical view of salvation
21:29
Specifically they have this anointed class that are in the New Covenant, but then they have the great crowd which is 99 .999
21:36
% of all Jehovah's Witnesses Who are not in the New Covenant? But they only partake in the blessings of the
21:43
New Covenant as they have fellowship with those who are in the New Covenant So as they in essence subject themselves to the governing body and the ruling elders in Brooklyn then they
21:54
By that participation that fellowship with the anointed class Gain some of the benefits
22:01
But the problem is this three -class system where you have the anointed you have the great crowd and you have all the rest of us
22:07
Is simply not biblical the biblical perspective is you are either in Christ or you're outside of Christ You're either in the flesh or in the spirit.
22:16
You're either spiritually dead or spiritually alive. There isn't this middle group That's partially justified or something like that And so it would raise all sorts of opportunities to challenge in the conversations you might have after observing the service this idea that you can be a
22:35
Person who is right with Jehovah God But you're not indwelt by the Spirit of God.
22:41
You're not adopted as one of the children of God You can go to Romans 8 14 as many as are led by the Spirit of God These are the children of God and challenge this whole limitation of the
22:50
New Covenant to the anointed class, which just makes absolutely no biblical sense whatsoever, so There would be that opportunity if you wanted to go that direction
23:02
Yeah, that's kind of what we were thinking So would that be the method you suggest like we're just wondering if you think there's a particularly pertinent way to go about Talking to them in relation to the service itself.
23:16
Yeah. Well, yeah, like I said those particular issues regarding The the subject of salvation the subject of the the multiple classes that they believe in the nature of justification
23:27
Either a person has been justified by faith in Christ has peace with God is a part of the
23:32
New Covenant united with Christ Adopted in the family of God indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God all those issues
23:40
Which they accept for the anointed class in essence, but they don't accept for the great crowd
23:46
I mean, I've I wish I had the the reference available to me. I could look it up with enough time, but Right toward the end of my time when
23:55
I was really studying the witnesses. They had come up with this idea of being partially justified and That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
24:04
I mean that's that's like being partially pregnant or something like that. You either are you're not and so that That whole area it really opens up an opportunity to present
24:16
The gospel in opposition to their position. I remember for Jehovah's Witnesses their view of Soteriology in the gospel is so not only intimately connected to but in fact defined by their view of eschatology that it would be important to have some idea of what they believe about The 1914 prophecy which is slowly being done away with but the idea idea of Armageddon and the invisible presence of Christ and and Because honestly, there's there's more discussion in the watchtower over that subject of eschatology and prophecy and things like that then there is discussion of Justification or or the the primary elements of the gospel that we would be focused upon in reading
25:06
Paul Okay, well, thank you very much. Okay. Thanks. Thanks James. All right.
25:12
God bless. Bye. Bye Alrighty, we had a little bit of a problem with the connection there. That's why we had to keep potting
25:18
James down It sounded like he was somewhere far far away 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1
25:29
That will be coming up. I guess it is is Easter a week from this
25:35
Wow Okay So that means a week from today will be the
25:43
Memorial Supper of Jehovah's Witnesses and if anything I hope it is a reminder to all of you and listening in our audience today
25:52
That you should rejoice if you are not part of Jehovah's Witnesses. The fact matter is
25:58
You meet with those folks you talk with those folks Very often they know the Bible better than our own people do and yet they have been given a false gospel that simply does not give anyone joy and To attend one of those meetings and something
26:15
I'm gonna have to do it. I'm gonna have to go to one of those Memorial Suppers. I haven't I've talked many extra
26:20
Jehovah's Witnesses who who have described them for me, but Just the description of what it must be like to just pass
26:29
Those elements by is so indicative so illustrative
26:35
I should say of the Just the partial gospel the false gospel of Jehovah's Witnesses they don't have
26:47
Really understanding whatsoever and and it's because of this well, it's because of where they came from I mean, let's let's let's realize it the
26:54
Russellite movement grew out of the failed Millerite movement from which also came the
26:59
Adventists And it was all focused upon prophecy eschatology date setting initially when when the watchtower was started
27:11
The idea was that Christ had returned invisibly in 1874. This was how they Made sense of the failed
27:18
Millerite movement and this this belief still exists among Seventh -day Adventists that yeah Something did happen then
27:24
Miller wasn't completely wrong But what it was was an invisible presence and the Seventh -day
27:30
Adventists have this concept of The investigative judgment where God I'm sorry where Jesus at that time entered into his heavenly temple and since then he has been examining the lives of Everyone who has believed in him for salvation to see if they lived lives worthy enough for him to apply his atoning sacrifice
27:49
To them that's the grave false teaching of Seventh -day Adventism And I'm very glad that there are some
27:55
Seventh -day Adventists who are beginning to Abandon LNG White's false teachings and especially that false teaching on that subject
28:03
Because that's just that's just a complete and utter overthrow of the gospel of grace There's no question about it and why it would take
28:10
Jesus this long To go through that process is another reason why
28:16
I think there's slowly abandoning it for obvious reasons as well But the watchtower came out of that same
28:23
Prophecy end time scenario type thing and so for from the I think what was the first again going completely off top of my head here,
28:32
I think the first watchtower is what 1878 something around in there and What you'll find in there is that they will be teaching
28:40
That Christ returned visibly in 1874 and that 40 years later one generation letter later
28:46
We'll be Armageddon. What's 40 years later 1914 and so up to that time I mean, there's I remember a specific watchtower quote that any spiritually minded man knows that Christ returned
28:58
Invisibly in 1874 now the Jehovah's Witness stands your door doesn't know that a vast majority I have no idea that that was the original teaching and that when 1914 came and went in 1914 was obviously a
29:09
I mean They were real excited about it World War one starts Looks like it's the end of all things, you know, the
29:14
Great War and all this and nation moving against nation and etc, etc but then 1914 passes and so they're looking for 1915 and then they do some adjustments and it's 1918 and then it's 1925 and Then in the time period after that,
29:31
I think there was a some scare about 1943 as well, but somewhere in that time frame they changed the 1874 teaching to 1914 and so that's when the invisible presence started
29:45
So now you've got another generation after that and initially it was yet to be 10 years old In 1914 and now it's you had a twinkle in your daddy's eye in 1914
29:57
Because there ain't too many folks left from 1914. Let's put it that way But you know, they're they're obviously running out of time.
30:04
That's why they're now de -emphasizing the 1914 prophecy it used to be in every awake magazine in the banner head and inside and now it's gone and They're they're coming up with new groups to try to you know, keep things going, you know patch things together
30:18
But that's what happens when you have man -made theology 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1.
30:24
We've got one person online. We'll take that call after our break and Your calls as well at 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 world, right?
30:34
How the pilgrims progress it's not an easy way It's a journey
30:42
To the Sun Following Jesus Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources
31:14
Pastors you will appreciate the phrase matching tool Which will allow you to find all of the verses containing phrases similar to your search verse giving you greater depth and keener insight during sermon preparation
31:25
Seminary professors and students will be enriched by the way Bible works 8 shows the most common words in the pericope book or chapter
31:31
Plus provides a wider range of formatting options and faster access to copying preferences scholars your research just got easier with the army external resources manager a handy tool to collect organize and display resource files from your
31:44
Computer as well as the internet. Dr. James White says Bible works is the best Bible software available
31:49
I have used Bible works software for years and each new release has brought many new and useful tools to the program
31:54
This is the program that runs 24 7 on my office computer and it is the one that's running on my laptop when
32:00
I engage In debates, it is simply the number one research tool for anyone doing serious exegesis of the text for over 15 years
32:07
Bible works has assisted all users in their study of the original languages and that enables you to do one thing
32:12
Focus on the text and that translates to focusing on the truth Order your copy of Bible works at a omen org and for a limited time
32:20
You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate The Trinity is a basic teaching of the
32:29
Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us James White's book the
32:34
Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a
32:47
Christian and Admit today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit. The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the
32:55
Trinity Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike highly recommended
33:05
You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Hello everyone, this is
33:12
Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
33:18
The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
33:26
Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
33:36
Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior We are to come before the
33:46
Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
33:56
Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
34:02
Thank you Well, thank you very much.
34:09
Mr. Pierce Keep complaining about my bumpers.
34:14
There you go. That's because your bumpers are older than dirt That's why I gave you
34:20
I gave you a CD out there. Just burn it on there Let's make ourselves some bumper music. Well, thank you ever so much.
34:27
I Wondered why he was grinning in there. He was I'm just not gonna play you don't like it fine People get older and they get a little irascible.
34:37
There's no two ways about it a Seven seven five three three three four one.
34:43
Let's talk to Robert down in the Big D. Hi Robert Doing good
34:49
Well, hey, yeah, we just had you out here last February or this February at Countryside Bible Church I seem to recall it just vaguely.
34:58
Yes. Yeah My question is um, I have a friend of mine from a church
35:05
I went to back in California and actually it's the church that uh George Bryson's a member of and I left that church after your ministry straightened out my soteriology and I've been chatting with him a little bit because he teaches an apologetics class at that church and He's uh, he comes from a
35:24
Molinistic perspective. He really likes William Lane Craig and That and I actually he was surprised to hear that Mullen was a
35:33
Jesuit priest and he didn't know that but he's describing to that as an apologetic. So I thought that's kind of strange but anyways,
35:40
I was wondering if You could coming. I don't know I haven't had time to really do a whole lot of research on it like I'd like but some of the texts that they bring up or the first Samuel 23 text and the
35:55
What is a Matthew 11 23 in Jesus Oracle over Capernaum and I just wanted to get your take on that because it sounds you know, the the thrust of it had
36:07
You know Sodom heard and witnessed these miracles that you have they would have repented and so, you know
36:13
It lends, you know my mind that alone and I think it's obviously inconsistent with many other texts
36:19
But that alone seems to lend towards the possibility of that idea. I just kind of wanted to get your thoughts on that Well, there are a number of good reference sources for a rather thorough refutation theologically and biblically of the concept of middle knowledge as it was applied by Molina for those not familiar with what we're talking about Mullen ism is a term used to refer to the philosophical and it is a philosophical paradigm developed by Louis de
36:51
Molina a Jesuit leader Who in direct response to the leader of the
36:57
Jesuits Ignatius Loyola developed this mechanism of in essence fighting the
37:03
Reformation and that was the Reformation was emphasizing the sovereignty of God the sovereignty of God's grace and Roman Catholic Soteriology cannot survive truly in the face of that kind of proclamation the sovereignty of God because it is a sacramental system very much dependent upon the free will actions of mankind
37:25
To obtain grace the means of the sacraments now that does not mean that there have not been
37:31
Roman Catholics since then who have tried to develop mixtures and have had higher views of God's grace than others
37:39
But the fact the matter is that you talk to the vast majority Roman Catholics and you start talking about God's grace
37:45
You get the same response. I got out of a graduate student years and years ago. It came to interview me and When I spoke of the freedom of God's grace to save who he choose to save That person's response to me was
37:57
I would never worship a god like that to which I said, that's the whole point but anyway
38:03
Molina developed this idea and Many it's interesting. There are a number of Armenians who do not like Molinism Because it actually in some ways and if you think about it presents a view of God's governance that is actually
38:24
In one sense more micro manage managed Then then the reform perspective is what
38:32
I mean by that is it's the idea that God has this special kind of knowledge Where he knows exactly what any free creature would do given any set of circumstances now
38:43
The the the real Arminian says that just isn't the case
38:48
He can know in general what creatures are going to do, but if a creature is truly free sometimes creatures do the most unexpected things
38:56
And I think most of the open theists Would certainly argue along those lines
39:02
Against this idea and would find Molinism as a very shallow attempt to save libertarian freedom, but the idea is that Since God has this kind of middle knowledge, then he is able to order events in Such a way as to always
39:22
Get from the free action of the creature the result that he wants and when you think about having to order
39:33
Events in such a way as to make currently six billion free creatures do exactly what you want them to do
39:40
Your hats off to God. He's really busy But it raises all sorts of other issues because really what kind of a freedom is it?
39:51
when You are being put in circumstances where you cannot do something other than that is it really an answer to the question is really what what's going on and What do you want to be the the the the center the guiding part of God's decree?
40:09
The actions of free creatures do it God does what he does to make free creatures do what they will do
40:15
But they only do it freely Or is it God? Accomplishing his purpose to his glory.
40:21
It's very much a difference between a man's their theology and a God's their theology now the The first thing that I would always
40:29
I'm sorry. I forgot to mention if you look at Robert Raymond's a systematic new systematic theology look at Francis Turretin's work as well
40:41
You will see that now I when I read Turretin I literally had to stop take some some some
40:51
Advil and Then do that like three times before I figured it out
40:56
But it is worth it worth the effort and actually one of our bloggers called
41:01
Turretin fam I know was working on that and I I Don't know that it's actually
41:11
Appeared on his blogger our blog actually and he's about 30 seconds behind me in the chat channel right now
41:18
So maybe he'll give me an indication one way or the other. I know he was working on that I don't know if parts of it have have appeared as yet or not because I had basically asked to ask him since you
41:29
Like Turretin so well, it sure would be helpful to folks if there was a simplified explanation
41:36
Oh, he's hanging his head in shame right now. Oh, well, I know he's begun work on it So keep an eye on the vlog because now maybe he will be even more
41:48
Shall we say Interested in so in so it is still in progress. Okay. There we go That was called stretching until the chat room catches up with what
41:55
I'm saying. Anyway that information is available in his in his complete works and You can also see
42:02
I think the similar type of argumentation in in Robert Raymond but Fundamentally what I say as soon as someone comes in and starts spouting
42:09
Molinism and as I asked him to step back and for a second say let me ask you a simple question Do you really think that this philosophical system was derived through faithful men?
42:21
studying the text of Scripture and following it where it leads or is this not clearly a
42:27
Philosophical system that has been built outside of Scripture and is being forced upon Scripture and I can't make anybody see that But I really honestly think that when you when you look at what the text says
42:42
There are these places where God talks about if this had happened then this would have happened now
42:47
There's only a small number of them But they're there but is that this substance of The Bible's teaching about God's decree his purposes and his decree is that what he grounds?
43:04
His knowledge for example of prophecy on or things like that And it's just obvious painfully obvious that that does not come from the exegesis of the text of Scripture It is not taking all the
43:17
Scripture and going. What does this teach us? Concerning God's sovereignty it is clearly an external
43:23
Philosophical system being forced on Scripture, but you still have the issue in fact. I think it was Trying to remember it's either today or yesterday when you're working on one project the day stores start squishing together, but we had a fellow come in channel and He was asking this not similar question, but he was also asking about this idea that well
43:45
You know what about God saying that if such -and -such and happened in such -and -such will happen doesn't that mean?
43:52
That such -and -such could have happened in such a context etc. Etc. Well again.
43:57
What was the purpose for example in? Jesus's words it was his purpose to discuss well in middle knowledge on this alternate timeline had these counterfactuals
44:11
Prevailed and had I willed to do this and these external circumstances that come into fruition
44:17
Then this alternate timeline would have taken place. No his point is that these cities that have received this tremendous light in the ministry of the very
44:29
Son of God are Going to be punished with a far greater punishment Because of the level of light and revelations was theirs for even the cities that they used as the byword for evil itself the cities that they confidently looked at as being the very essence of the the disgusting nature of the
44:51
Gentiles the goyim Those nations would have repented in sackcloth and ashes
44:57
Had they had the same level of of divine revelation given to them
45:04
Now that's not it. That's not like a prophecy or something else that's simply saying that there has been a different level of revelation given and these people are hard -hearted in Their rejection of the revelation has been given to them
45:18
To read into it some you know alternate timelines and all the rest this type of stuff
45:24
I think is to go way beyond the point that is that is being made at all And to introduce some concept that just just is not enunciated by by God in any way
45:34
You know theologians asked the question You know does God have this kind of knowledge well this type of speculative stuff is is
45:45
You know lots of fun when you're in seminary and you're sitting around during break and systematic theology class eating your your cupcakes and drinking your cut your coke and and You know a few mind twisters and stuff like that, but it is it really something that is central to the
46:02
Bible's own Presentation of the knowledge of God and the basis of God's actions in this world, and I would obviously insist that it is not
46:11
So when when you look at the various texts that are brought up where you have some sort of a hypothetical
46:17
Situation being presented it is not as if well that means that that God does has not decreed the timeline, but he has in the sense that he's just constantly active in bumping things around To make free creatures do the things that he wants them to do while they actually think they're doing the things they want to do
46:41
That that that kind of reading into it. I think the fact that it took what? Fifteen hundred and eighty some -odd years after the time of Christ where anybody thought this whole thing up might be somewhat indicative of its non -biblical nature
46:57
Sure, and one more thing that I think that kind of brought out and my thinking was that You know most of them seem to be
47:06
Non -reformed I'm sure all of them are non -reformed But Arminian and I don't see how that can work with their concept of there.
47:14
No not being any special election Because it doesn't yeah that no it doesn't
47:20
They would have to affirm that in some way God does or maybe he just says well
47:25
There's certain people that no matter what situation I put him in they wouldn't exercise their free will in such a way to Choose Christ very good very good insight
47:33
I would press that I would press that on him because that was one of the questions And I had to I even had to and and I someone got angry with me for this
47:42
But I even had to ask George Bryson when I was on the Bible answer man with him Are you an open theist well?
47:49
No, of course not and and there is some anger about that But what he was saying would logically lead to a more consistent position being to be an open theist and in the same way the
48:02
Arminian who wants to affirm the the absolute knowledge of God of future events who goes this direction is
48:10
Is at the same time and I know George Bryson certainly goes this direction So I assume this guy does to just detest the decree of election and yet if what takes place in time
48:23
God is determining through Placing free creatures in circumstances. They'll do what he wants them to do then
48:30
Why doesn't he place all people into circumstances by which they will accept Christ? It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever there it doesn't get around anything it just it's creating a
48:41
Loophole where you can say that man is totally free and still a firm try to affirm some kind of a decree
48:48
But that's not what they end up doing and that's certainly not what a George Bryson type person wants to do.
48:54
So I think that's It was interesting in at the Bible answer man broadcast Mullen ism and middle knowledge came up as the primary defense not from George Bryson but from someone else during the conversations during the breaks and I was interested that that didn't end up coming out very clearly at all in the conversation, but that was
49:14
Brought up during the breaks as one way of trying to get around the compatibilism that I was presenting from Genesis chapter 50 and Isaiah chapter 11 and and or Isaiah chapter 10 and stuff like that and So it did come up but yeah, if someone wants to wants to express absolute hatred of the idea that God chooses and elect people and he does so based solely upon The kind intention of his will
49:41
Mullen ism doesn't provide you any way around that as far as I can see Because if you if you make that one area the area of salvation
49:51
Outside of God's middle knowledge. Well the whole thing then falls apart Because you you can't have some type of decree
49:58
God can't be accomplishing something when he's not gonna know who's on his side and who isn't Yeah, you know, so it the connection just isn't it just doesn't doesn't hold together and it
50:09
It's it's been my experience. I actually a friend of mine years and years ago William Lane Craig actually came to his church
50:16
Northwest Community Church and came into a friend of mine's who was very reformed his
50:23
Sunday school and They got rebuked later for for attacking
50:28
William Lane Craig but all they were doing was simply asking him to interact exegetically with text and to defend his position and When you really get into that and when you really start going into the key text on election and things like that and saying
50:43
So, where are you getting this from? Where? Can can you give us biblical responses?
50:49
It's they just don't have much in the way of biblical responses They have philosophical responses and that's the overriding overriding concern.
50:57
So, you know But it is interesting that that particular church and I can imagine what non denominational denomination.
51:04
That is Unless you follow our rules
51:15
You've spoken one of those And I will be again
51:20
I will be again in September they've asked me back is that pastor Calvinist Yes, the churches the churches because I had heard of them
51:29
Disassociating themselves with I won't say the name of the church, I guess but Disassociating themselves with you know churches that Work Calvinist and you know tell them not to use their name
51:44
Well, yeah, and and I imagine that's coming and in fact the irony is in in talking in talking to them
51:50
Yeah, I loved going to that church the folks were just hungry for the
51:56
Word of God and and It was really exciting to be to be with them. I'm looking forward to being with them again in September But Interested one of the things really shocked me was they informed me that What may end up causing them to to have to disassociate with that organization?
52:15
Is not so much that issue the the rest of those groups already know about them.
52:21
They're the weird ones, you know But what would what would automatically trigger it and I did not know this until I went there in September would automatically trigger it
52:30
They have come under conviction that they need to have a membership They need to know who is a part of that local body
52:38
And of course, I've always said how in the world can a shepherd Shepherd a flock when the flock can just go wandering all over the place and you don't know who's who's in the flock and who
52:47
Isn't but I didn't realize that in that particular non -denominational denomination If you establish a membership list, you are automatically out.
52:56
You're gone. That's it. Yeah And I was with them For a couple years and that's that's where I really kind of grew up and you know
53:04
I got involved in or I started looking into your ministry a little bit and that's what started making me think critically about you know my sociology, but um the when
53:15
I left that church, I left that church for other reasons, but when one of the biggest ones is because I was
53:21
Convicted Calvinist and it was like a four -letter word. Like I had planned on going Evangelizing with some some of my friends who still went to that church and a girl said well
53:33
I wouldn't I wouldn't go do ministry with the Jehovah's Witness. Why would I go do ministry with a Calvinist? And I had to sit her down and explain to her that oh, yeah, you know
53:42
There's a significant difference there and that you know, the pastor quotes a lot of Calvinists in his sermons but you know that they were just really off and inconsistent about this area according to him and And so but yeah, that's just the mindset there and there
53:56
I know it is I know the other big thing for them is their eschatology if you're not pre -millennial pre true.
54:02
Yes. Yes. You're out here You are history. There's no two ways about you know, I and I don't
54:07
I don't know what's gonna happen in the future when The grandpappy of the movement isn't isn't there anymore?
54:14
Is there gonna I don't know if there's a second generation strong leader in the in the wings or if you're gonna see
54:21
You know sort of a Broadening of things. I I don't know. I am NOT a prophet nor the son of a prophet, but it is interesting to to note that I've spoken at a number of those non -denominational denominational churches and including some rather large ones in in the past and Those invitations have dropped off a little bit.
54:43
Yeah, no two ways about it, but there are still some so there's still a lot of good believers there and and they
54:51
The thing is they say hey read and believe your Bible. Well, yeah, you know, what's gonna do that's gonna happen is eventually you're gonna read
55:00
John 6 and eventually you're gonna read John 17 and visions 1 and stuff like that and you go hey, wait a minute and So, you know you believe me.
55:08
You're not the only one to have Gone that path. So but anyways, hopefully that's some of use to you.
55:15
All right. Thank you. Thanks Robert. God bless My Yes, the non -denominational denomination, yes very large non -denominational denomination that is out there
55:31
It's really tough when you finish a phone call at 5540 it means you've got two and a half minutes.
55:39
And what do you do in two and a half minutes? I said, I don't even know that the next contradiction from Dan Barker could fit in two and a half minutes
55:45
It'll probably take in a minute and a half by itself Then you got 60 seconds to give a surface level answer. That's not really way to do it.
55:51
So I'm not gonna go there I'm just Just gonna remind folks. We have put up some new information on the website again the debate in Milwaukee is off but please pray that today a conversation is taking place about Where We will do those debates on reliability
56:15
New Testament the viability of the Quran there is a really wonderful opportunity available to us and The discussion is taking place today.
56:25
I don't know if it's already taking place. It was just on Thursday I don't know if it's morning evening, whatever but it would be a much much wider audience would be able to see those debates if this can take place and So certainly
56:40
I would like to see that happen so pray toward that end that to God's will be done The debate with Dan Barker continues on Actually, we have a location up there that is not the proper location
56:52
I haven't heard back from our contact at the University of Illinois as to the exact room number yet We have one up there, but they she contacted me and said at they said we can't use that as a bunch stuff going on I had hoped to hear from her today and have not heard from her today.
57:07
So We will of course have that information updated as soon as we possibly can there and then we just put the advertisement up for the conference in June in Halden, New Jersey and If that other opportunity on Islam comes up then
57:26
We might be looking at trying to do something in New York in between Because that opportunity would be the
57:32
July 4th weekend. So it may end up being back east for quite a while There we'll have to let you know as to how that will that will work out
57:39
And we still have a few of the King James only first edition books Available that I have signed which means that you can't take them back to a bookstore and get money for them
57:52
There's they're still available I'm still trying to find out from Bethany home Bethany home Yeah, Bethany Bethany house as to the
57:58
I've been told April 15th, and now they're telling us May 30th, and I need to verify from them
58:04
Why would there be a delay because I didn't delay I got everything in right when it was supposed to be there and so on So forth, so we'll find out and let you know.
58:14
Thanks for listening to the dividing line today Next time we'll get together Lord. Well, and we'll be next
58:19
Tuesday 11 a .m. Mountain standard time And we'll continue on with the
58:25
Dan Barker alleged contradictions your phone calls and maybe who knows maybe something will happen between now and then
58:31
We'll have to talk about as well. That has happened more than once. That's why we do this live Thanks for listening to the buying line.
58:36
God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
59:43
If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 973 4602 or write us at P.
59:48
O box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9 You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org
59:55
That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks