Confessions of a Reformed Metho... Bapti... Costal

Hey guys, it's Keith Foskey and welcome back to conversations with a Calvinist today I'm excited to have my new friend Susan here from steadfast women Susan Thank you for coming into the conversation with the Calvinist studio today Yes, ma'am, I'm glad to have you and I'm glad to have had you today in our worship service Yeah, we had you worship along with us I am thankful to have you and you reached out to me last week said you were gonna be in town Yeah And so I thought it would be a good idea good opportunity for us to get to know each other because we've talked to each Other online quite a bit.

Yes, but I Twitter friends.

Yes, we're Twitter friends and What's interesting about that is usually when I see you I see two faces So tell me what that's about So I have an identical twin sister named Sarah and she was actually supposed to come on this vacation with me as well That she is about 24 weeks pregnant with baby number three And she did not want to be away from any of her doctors since you're kind of reaching that touch-and-go point if she were you Somewhere to happen having a baby early and so she is at home watching my dogs, which I'm thankful for So it's cheaper than a kennel if she watches her and so she's doing that and I really wish she could be here But she just couldn't make the trip for that reason So now you said your twin sister or identical twins and y'all live real close to one another we have There used to not be any houses between us But now there has been one house built in between us in the last few years out in rural, Tennessee And so I can like see the top of her trees.

She can see the top of my trees From where we are.

So yeah, we live right at the base Of the Appalachian Mountains.

No, just pretty much right out our doors and there's the mountain range So when I first saw you guys on Twitter, it was the the handle is steadfast women Mm-hmm, so I saw it.

I knew it was a ministry of some sort because that's obviously not either of your names Yeah, not steadfast.

It's not your name But I was intrigued because obviously it was two ladies I didn't realize you were identical twins, but I guess thinking back to the picture Figured that out because you look exactly like but you know, I guess I assumed that you were sisters But how how did that start and and and and what is it? What exactly is steadfast women? Maybe that's way to begin What do you guys do and how did you get started? So steadfast women originally was called transform for more and it the idea actually came from my sister because she was a freshman English teacher And we had both been involved in youth ministry in various churches and various roles And so she felt like she kept seeing the same issues getting the same questions From teenagers and she thought why don't we start a blog and social media pages try to connect with youth? Ministries try to connect with youth pastors see if they like any of our resources She wrote several books Based on her questions that she would get so that it could be a resource for parents to have for students to have and then a few years in she left the teaching profession because she had her first child and she's been a stay-at-home homeschooling mom ever since then and So when you kind of get away from like the pulse and heartbeat of teenage life and what's all going on? We didn't really feel like we had content.

She said I feel like I've said everything I needed to say She said I feel like I've made all the resources and I've needed to make I've written all the books that I'm gonna write I've blogged everything and one of our big things was like the cycle of violence for teenage dating because that's very prevalent It's even prevalent more now that you throw cell phones and all this confusion into the mix And so like abuse within boyfriend-girlfriend boyfriend-girlfriend relationships.

Yeah and healthy relationships and More there's you know in Christian circles as we came to find out there was this big distinction between dating and courtship Where we didn't really one of her books her most popular book probably was called So you think you're ready to date and you're actually supposed to walk away if a teenager It's written up like a devotional that parents can do with a teen girl or a teen girl can do it by herself Maybe if her, you know, she doesn't have Christian parents, but somebody in her life wants to get her this resource Sure, you know and you're actually supposed to walk away with it realizing you're probably not ready to date because you're a young teenager but it's But if somebody makes that choice today as a young teenager or even an older teenager Then it at least tries to lay out practical steps and boundaries to safeguard yourself from falling into the traps That's so many falling to like our number one article has always been Well, God forgive me for sexting that has statistically When we ran transform for more was just always every time we get our analytics The the number one traffic to our site was articles like that that we wrote so these you know, these teenagers are obviously googling it They're not asking their parents, you know those sorts of things So, you know, you think it is you would say then as probably teenagers who are reading that not necessarily parents downloading it Giving it to their kids, but kids themselves reaching out for that material.

Yes.

Wow Yep, I have a feeling that they are the one they were googling it They had messed up can talk to their parents about it And we had done some counseling to with teenage girls like they're in our local lives Their parents would be saying.

Oh my goodness.

We found out our daughter sent these pictures We found out all of this stuff and they were like, can you guys help her? and so we would try to counsel, you know through that and give resources and then we kind of got away from From kind of that whole pole, you know And as you get a little older too, it seems like you become more like talking to your mom instead of like talking to an older Sister, you know which is why I felt like a lot of people brought their girls to be counseled by us because there was just a younger voice Than what their parents were and now we're like the parents ages of teenagers Yeah, and so we also so I was a false convert for 20 years and I was saved in 2017 So you combine that and I start to ask questions.

How was I deceived for so long and I grew up in the church Like I don't get it.

And so we start asking questions and then God starts putting pieces together and we Kind of see that there's just some things broader in the church that is really sabotaging the walk of women who want to know more about God and so we just did a total change in our ministry and Step back from a focus on teenagers to just all women where we expose deception Examine resources and equip women with the word and so that has been in 2020 So four years of teen ministry in 2020 we sent we transitioned to steadfast women and have been doing that type of work ever since Okay, I want to go back to steadfast women in a moment because I want to talk about how you do your Instagram page Okay, all of those things, but before I do that because you mentioned it so I don't want to forget Okay, that is the the idea of being a false convert for 20 years because I know that I grew up in a situation where I was Introduced to the church when I was 7 my parents got a divorce and my stepmom brought me to church.

You met her today Yeah, and Same church.

I've been the same church since I was 7.

This is this is the church Okay, and and I got baptized at 8 years old because I saw everybody else getting okay Yeah, I thought that's what I was supposed to do Yeah, but I didn't actually get converted until I was 19.

It was actually after my wife and I got married Okay, we were married in this church And and within six months she got saved and then I got saved shortly thereafter Okay, but again all through high school all through middle school I would have claimed to be a Christian because I went to church I would have said that was what Christians do they go to church on Sunday? they live a relatively moral life through the week and You know, that was basically what I did.

I was a pretty Reasonable young man counted on do things.

I was into band and sports and everyone not really sports But I did I did the band and I did karate karate karate is sports for geeks.

Yeah But that was my life.

So tell me about you.

You're you said 20 years Yeah, I felt like you were not a believer So I grew up in a United Methodist Church My dad was raised in a Methodist Church And then my mom has really strong Pentecostal roots was raised Church of God and so they raised us in a small Methodist Church where we were and one night at Children's Church the pastor's wife was doing a lesson on end times and it was Horribly scary for a ten-year-old to sit and listen to the way it was all presented and then at the end she said but you Know if you're saved then you'll be taken in the rapture and you won't have to go through any of this bad stuff If you know if you just ask Jesus into your heart and you're saved He'll take you out and you won't have to do any of this stuff.

So I mean what ten-year-old girl? In the class, I didn't do anything But before we actually even got out of the car when my mom got me home I was just squalling in the front seat and I just like told her what happened and you know She said this and that and you know, so mom got you know talked I mean I'd been raised in church and we had my mom played the piano in church And so, you know you have I mean it was just all around us raised in a sea of it Yeah, and so she talked to me a little bit about you know The gospel in Jesus making sure like I understood those basics and then she led me through the prayer of you know Salvation presented me to the church the next week but I've learned since becoming a Baptist that they they you know see baptism a lot more seriously than the Methodist Church I grew up in did and so I actually was not baptized until I was 19.

Okay, and so but I had You know as Jesus is into my heart and then I was I mean me and my twin Of course, my twin sister was truly converted at 14.

So when I look back on my life, I'm like well No wonder Sarah didn't struggle as much as me She was truly saved and I still but still we were the person that like I said people brought their daughters to for counseling or that we were the people they They wanted their daughters to be friends with us because we weren't drinking.

We weren't sleeping around We were going to church every Sunday.

We were in but we were the youth group People in our church, but you know that sort of example somebody you'd want your daughters to be friends with somebody You would want your sons to date, but it was all like I look back on it and I'm like, well What good is the whitewash tamed? You know, that's all I was I was filled dead man's bone but I looked awesome on the outside and could and could run you my checklist of how great of a Christian I was and Really truly knew not Christ When you told me off camera that the film American Gospel had a had a big impact on you mind Wait before we go there.

Okay.

You also mentioned the rapture thing.

Did you see my video on thief in the night? No, I did it.

You know what thief in the night is no It's a video.

It's a video about the rapture that they used in the 70s and 80s It was made in 72 to scare people.

Okay, what you talked about? I had never seen it So I so James White gave me a hard time for not seeing it Okay, so I watched it and I'd film my reaction okay, that's probably the only way I could watch it because that was so much and then after that I had like an unreasonable fear of in times like there would be if I was in a Church and you know visiting a friend or wherever I was and they started talking about revelation or even reading the part in the Gospels Where they start hinting at in times the end of all things I would truly get up and leave just in tears Yeah, I mean just a total unhealthy fear for so long about in times because of that experience It's so funny because my wife got saved through me sharing with her about the the end times before I was even saved Really and and that's it's so funny because we look back at it now I had grown up in church had heard all these things and I was telling her I did security and so she would come up And I was I would work all night doing security and she came up and sat with me while I was doing security And we've been we've been left in 17 But I was telling her about Jesus's return.

I wasn't saved.

Okay, but you know a lot of scripture Yeah, yeah, so it's funny how God did use that in a positive way in my wife and then I actually got saved after her But but I know we've kind of gone in a circle, but I just had to mention thief in the night Okay.

Yes.

I'll definitely look that up the but the American Gospel.

Mm-hmm You would say that was actually used by God to influence you.

And yes, so I was saved in 2017 and I it took a little bit to really realize what had happened to me because I thought I was saved and then I I had actually missed had a miscarriage and I fell into a depression Started going to a counselor who I did not realize now I do was a word-of-faith counselor and but even from one of our very first meetings She said I don't think you have a problem with depression I think your problem is spiritual which now that I know a lot about the word of faith movement I'm not surprised that they would say that but she wasn't wrong And so that kind of led me Because I knew enough I had read enough in the Bible had been in church enough to know that Christians are supposed to suffer Well, and I looked at my life and how I was handling like this loss of a child like even months out now And I said I am not suffering Like I I know what the Bible says and I don't see any fruit of it which caused like a real crisis that the Lord eventually read led me through and then I really like I Don't know.

I mean, I guess everybody has different salvation stories but there was a true night where I just realized that this life was not about me and everything that I was Concentrating on with the suffering of the miscarriage and whatever else in my life was all me me meet me And it's like that night.

The Lord was like None of this is about you None of is about you and like until I got my eyes off of myself I'm never and I knew that like because I I remember just hitting the floor and praying and I knew when I got up my Life was never gonna be the same But I didn't know what had happened still and then you kind of go on and I realized through the fruit in my life and things that are starting to happening and Sins that God is starting to reveal to me that I didn't even know I had nor struggled with Was just mind-blowing.

And so then I really tried not to fall into bitterness, but I was kind of like how did I grow up in the church for 20 years and Never struggle with my salvation do all the right things get through high school and college into marriage You know is the perfect, you know, you know pure husband and a pure wife and this is supposed to be the greatest life you know, and so I struggled how did I grow up and Just not know that I wasn't saved and then in 2019.

I saw American Gospel And that movie was the one I watched where I was like, oh, that's how That's how I can grow up in the church and not know I'm saved and I didn't know one of the things American Gospel did Was introduced me to Bible teachers that I did solid Bible teachers like not the ones from TBN Like people like I mean who's in there Phil Johnson Paul Washer Steve Lawson John MacArthur all the people the solid people that they interview I'd never heard of any of them any of them didn't know a thing about them So the about the second or third time I watch it.

I'm sitting there with like a piece of pen and paper like, okay, Steve Lawson, okay That guy's name is Paul Washer and I'm googling like trying to figure out who these men are because I've never heard anybody Talk about Christ the way that these men are talking about Christ and so then American Gospel 2 comes out and It's all about the Atonement and my husband watches it and the night that he watches it He comes to me a couple days later and says Susan I think I've been a false convert and he said because the way that they talked about The cross and what was truly accomplished for us on the cross in salvation He said I've never heard anybody talk about the cross that way and he said I just think I get it now and he was like And I think I'm really saved He said I think God has saved me and so like for two false converts like and I let you preached on marriage this morning Husbands and wives and I'm just like even to look at our marriage from 2020 on with two saved people Instead of pre 2020 with two people who were falsely converted just thinking they were saved Like it's almost like just being married to new people Like we're both just made new brand new people and which has made our marriage sweeter than it's ever been I mean, it's just it's just truly a beautiful thing that like I feel like neither one of us deserve at all But God has just been so gracious to us.

So how long how long have you been married 13 13 years? Oh, wow.

Yeah, we got married.

I was 22 and he was 24.

Okay.

Okay.

I won't do the math for your age Okay, 30s, yeah, I'm not late 30s yet so Well now getting back to and that's great I love to hear the the conversion story and the and the about how American Gospel was helpful I've you know I've had the opportunity to talk to some of the men who were who made that film made those films and just I'm thankful I am for for the work that they've done and and you know I I hope to in a small way through the podcast and other things to contribute to the same thing and that is that's getting Christ's message out there and in the way that the people received stuff now through media and things like that So I definitely see a place for it and good filmmaking.

Yeah, is is is valuable I believe so But but you guys with steadfast women now you and your sister and is it you guys are the main? We are the only two the only two.

Yeah Your ministry is not a ministry of video or podcasting your ministry is through writing and through Instagram.

Yep Yeah, so we have a website.

Sorry, go ahead.

No, no, I was gonna cut you off.

No, you're fine I was gonna say so tell me about the how the ministry Functions and and the purpose and how it works.

So we are Mainly what we do is on Instagram and there are several Instagram accounts who do what we do Christian women trying to equip other Christian women with resources to help them Walk a life worthy of the calling they have received, you know to be wives and to be mothers And so a lot of what we do is resources So there may be a book that I read and I'll pull out quotes or I'll put it on a recommended list Subjects in the culture like things that are coming that parents need to be aware of concerning our kids because even though we don't do teenagers anymore like we still have an ear out for things that parents may be need to wear a be aware of But really it's the resource thing because a lot of moms they're working or they're homeschooling or they're raising kids And we just have an interest in helping them find resources and weed through resources So they don't waste their time on fluff or stuff.

That's not going to be edifying to them things that aren't theologically rich Books to avoid for their like they may be looking for books for their children and it's like oh Have you heard about this website called, you know, good book mom.

She Vets books for you so you don't have to waste a whole bunch of money on books that once you start reading them you throw in the trash because You realize they don't have biblically correct things to show your children.

And so it's connecting women with things like that It's doing different stories.

I don't know if you're familiar with Instagram, but doing Instagram stories and highlights I will tell you this I My social media is a little weird Okay, as you know, you know me through the funny videos.

Yeah that started that started on tick-tock on accident Oh, okay church member.

I didn't even have tick-tock Okay, remember saw my video that I made the little denominational video and he put it we were shooting We're out of the shooting range on a Saturday at 3 o'clock and he said well Let me put this video on I'll make a tick-tock for you.

So he created.

Okay.

Okay posted it the next morning He comes to church he goes have you seen I said, I'll have tick-tock I haven't seen yet.

He said he got like 90,000 views in like a day the first video Wow, and it was like, okay There we have something here something here.

So so I started using that as a way I would do a funny video and then a serious video Okay, and I would do a funny video and then it's something more like answering a Bible question Okay, sometimes it was about controversial things like women pastors.

Okay, but I was using tick-tock Okay, and I quickly got over a million, you know views and stuff and that and that was that's great.

Yeah, that was neat but I Never used Instagram.

Okay, that's why I'm okay.

So you're not as I have it now But the only reason I have it is because Facebook and Instagram are connected Okay, so if I post anything to Facebook if it's a picture it automatically post to my Instagram So I started getting Instagram followers, but I didn't even know Okay, so one of the things with Instagram is you can create store you can do Instagram stories Which you can also turn into a highlight series And so the highlights would be what most of the people would look like our book rest Recommendations are all in a highlight Bible teachers.

We recommend her in a highlight people We do not recommend people following her in a highlight We have one on elevation and why to avoid them Hillsong and why to avoid them to on Bethel and how they're just wreaking havoc and so many churches Be curious to hear your thoughts on that maybe we can get back to that Okay but because I obviously have a lot of thoughts about Hillsong and Bethel and things like that and I've seen a lot of the Divide that that has brought into churches.

Mm-hmm.

So that's that's cool that you you you know that you have that but continue Yeah, so those are the types of things that you would find if you kind of swapped through our Instagram youth ministry We have one on youth ministry Is it even should we even have youth ministry because Sarah and I once we both kind of distance ourselves from youth ministry when we started seeing Problems in the church like we realize youth group culture is one of the things that keeps the wheels of false conversion spinning Because because of how So many of them and it's not people want to pigeonhole you.

Okay, I'm sure there's some groups that you know That are youth ministries that are done fine and people like, you know, John MacArthur has a youth ministry at his church great I'm so glad they have a youth ministry We're not really saying that they should or shouldn't exist But we want parents to be paying attention to what is going on and we've had people they were You know they're like thank you for empowering us to make the decision to actually pull our child out of you the youth group at our church because we See the fruit there is not good and it's like they just needed somebody to encourage them that that's your child And even if you have a great like expositor who gets up in this, you know as a senior pastor on Sunday And brings the word your children are still being taught in youth group.

And what are they being taught? And so once the parents started paying attention, they're like we don't like anything.

This guy is teaching and it's like well Then you need to pull him out.

That's your child.

He's your responsibility.

He's not the church's responsibility And so those are different types of I mean and they a lot of them are controversial I mean we get anytime you talk about any of those subjects within Christendom You're gonna get a lot of pushback.

And so we have but you know, praise the Lord There's also been an audience that has wanted to know those things and to be more reverent in those things and you know a lot of conversations we've had so many messages of people like when we talk about the music from false churches be like How do I approach my pastor and I'm like, oh, well, this is a great video that Doreen virtue did with a pastor And so man, he has a pastor's heart watch this before you even go down that road So kind of counseling them because they don't have unfortunately other people in their life And then we've had some churches that praise the Lord have gotten rid of all of that music just because they had somebody push the question and then unfortunately we've had people message us back and say it was an absolute disaster and I'm not sure we could stay at this church and I'm like, but it's it's you know, like women.

I don't really interact with me and I'm like, well How's your husband feel you need to go with your husband? Does he have a wiser elder in his life? You know that type of thing to get them in with good counsel.

But yeah, a lot of our Instagram stuff has Has gotten a lot of blowback from people and followers of those churches and youth ministers and whatever else you want to go to but Everything we do is biblically based like if the Bible says it I'm just not embarrassed by what it says and The person has to deal with the consequences of that.

We have stuff.

Of course.

I'm an abortion abolitionist So we have several things on like pro-life versus the abolition movement that people can go through So we've gained followers from that.

We've lost followers from that.

You know, it's just I don't know I feel like our the honest youth pastor.

I know you've had him on your show He he used to do this thing called follower art where it would Instagram shows you how many followers you gain and lose over a certain Amount of time so he would turn it into artwork and have like a boat Sailing down this side or somebody flying up if you gain followers, so that's just what the Instagram world.

That's life is like well before we go away from this I do want to just mention the The youth group thing because you know, our church is family integrated.

Yes, and if you notice that morning, yeah you know you walk in and there's little babies and there's teenagers and everybody's together and you know, that was a that was a Committed choice we made Back at well, I guess been about 13 years ago.

It's awesome.

But yeah And and and I like you I'm not gonna say, you know, if a church has a youth group that's wrong I'm not gonna condemn another church for doing it I do think there are things that can be done correct and we do have like age-graded Sunday school You know, like I I actually have our our young people and I do the Sunday school for the young people Okay, because two of our elders do Two other Sunday school classes.

So I do the young people.

So I thought you know, I have you know I can see value in certain things, but I Did get a lot of pushback when I first began to try to encourage us to move away from the youth group model Mm-hmm, and the biggest pushback that I got was, you know, well, I was saved in youth group Yeah, or you know cuz like, you know, I don't if you ever heard al moeller al moeller will say, you know One of the most important men in his life was one of the youth pastors And so so I you know, I've had to I've had to Manage that because some people come and say well, where's the youth group? Well, we don't have it.

Well, what in the world? I know yeah You don't care about kids and That's a that's a horribly myopic view.

Yeah to say that because you don't have a youth group You don't care about kids.

It's just no we we want every father To to understand his role as a disciple or we want every mother to understand it her role as as a disciple Er, and and and that doesn't mean everybody has to homeschool, but a lot of our people do homeschool.

Yeah Yeah You know we we try to lead and guide and say these are the things that we have found that that God has used and And it's funny how relatively young The youth group Model is in church history out the 1970s.

Yeah, that's when they first started actually hiring staff Because it was all used to be para church It was just all para church and that you'd have young life doing stuff for you to have like everything was outside of the church Sure, and in the 1970s they started because part of our highlight that we have on our Instagram actually goes to the history of youth ministry Have you've seen the field and divided that church and fit? So there's a you know clips from that that we use and things like yeah I remember when that came out I remember looking at that film and it was about the same time.

I think that we because I probably I guess it's like 2012 Maybe that's when it came out about that time Well, when we changed our name, we used to be forced Christian Church and then we became a sovereign grace family church in 2011 Okay, we didn't add the name family church for the purpose of being family integrated.

We okay That wasn't the the reasoning we wanted sovereign grace because we wanted to identify with a reformed Theology but family church there was already a sovereign grace Baptist Church Okay in town and we didn't want to be sovereign grace Bible Church not because we're against the Bible obviously, but a lot around here a lot of Bible churches are King James only okay And if you identify yourself as Bible and you don't use King James only then you're gonna get a lot.

Okay a lot of hate Yeah, so we didn't want to do that either And so we chose family church because we do believe and I hope you saw this this morning We believe church is family.

Yeah, like our people.

I love our people and our people love me very well They love my family well And so we had always thought of the church like a family and so we said we're gonna go with family church because that's what We believed it was well that ended up opening up a door.

Okay family integration.

That was different It was like God used that to say well, hey you you call yourself this Yeah, you know, but let's see.

Let's see you work it out in real real way because I was a youth pastor Okay before I became so many I think that's another reason that people have a hard time with this subject because I know there was One.

Okay.

He was a senior pastor, but had been a youth pastor and he was not happy.

Is that somebody local? You know that can just like call me up You know cuz it'd be like, what are you doing Susan? And he said you made it act like youth ministry shouldn't even be a thing.

Yeah, and I was like I Mean if that's what you drew from the highlight Then maybe you need to search the scriptures and seek this out because I don't say in the highlight What anybody should do I just go over the history what what if you look out in the culture? Youth groups are doing yeah, and so this is what they're doing parents pay attention pastors pay attention To see if your church is doing that.

Do you want your kid to be a part of it? Do you not make an informed decision about what's happening at your church? And we had to leave a church one time and was family integrated on the top of the list No, but I was like man.

I really hope we find a family integrated church.

Sure So it's not when somebody like if they asked me well, what do you recommend when looking for a church? I mean family integrated really isn't even probably in the top four or five.

Yeah, but it would be on my list But if you can't find a family integrated church, but you found a really solid biblical church then go to that church You know and it may be don't let your kids participate if you don't like what's going on if you want them in the service With you keep them with you if you want them to You know don't like what's going on.

Maybe talk to the youth pastor.

Maybe talk to the senior pastor Is this really wise because somebody may have never ever just questioned? Yeah, because Something that started in the 70s.

Okay now that's what 50 years ago More than 50 years ago So you're talking about like half a lifetime or most of most of a lot of people's lifetime that they've not known anything Yeah, this is it.

Yeah, so and it's interesting because when you talk about the For you, it's not in your top five or top ten.

Yeah, but the other things that are maybe in my top ten The other things that aren't or I'm sorry the other things that are like I would assume things like, you know Sound theology would be oh, yeah sound theology not just in the preaching but in the music.

Yes Yeah, are they equipping parents right, you know those those things are there then if there is a youth group It's going to be a biblically functioning group as well If there is if they are trying to do something to minister to young people They're going to be ministering to them in an exegetical way in a way that's biblical base So so even though you're saying it's down.

I agree with you It's not in the test But these other things are going to conform the church Correct the church if the church is conforming to these things then this other thing too is going to be conformed as well and you'll Have a much healthier youth ministry like one of my dearest friends and she's in her mid 60s Her and her husband are the youth ministers at their Presbyterian Church.

Yeah, and I'm like, that's wonderful Could you imagine a 65 year old pouring in to kids like she's raised five children has 12 grandkids, you know Like that would be amazing.

So there are ways I do believe that it can be edifying Sure, and so that's what I'm saying.

It's not that it's not a deal-breaker.

Yeah, but you know, if you have those other things Yeah, you can trust that the last one is likely going to place It's not likely you're gonna have a solid church with a solid ministry everywhere else and then you got something buckwild going So with that in mind Moving back to the to the steadfast women So you guys have been a voice for people or not a voice a place where people can voice their questions So you have your website you have the Instagram and you've mentioned several times the abolitionist side so And I do want to get to that in a minute But what are some other areas of ministry before because I think we might spend some time on the abolition I want to let that one sit but what are some other things other than the youth ministry that you felt like you've really been able to contribute into the lives of Women specifically what are some areas that they have that people have reached out to you for and you've said I'm thankful We get asked a lot about how to find a biblically solid church, okay And because people are figuring out through us recommend like in our recommendations We have film recommendations book recommendations blog recommendations Social media account recommendations and once you kind of start down that road It helps you figure out are you in a solid church or are you not? And so that has been definitely one of the most things is like, okay We've realized we're not in a solid church How do we find a solid church or it may be just the music thing everything about our church is so good But they won't stop singing Bethel.

So how do I bring up to my pastor that? Bethel is as horrible as you will have portrayed it to be and that we don't need to be basically paying them to sing their Music in our churches and so walking and getting them resources so that they can talk to their pastor Like not resources from us.

But like I said that video that Dorian virtue did was so good With with a pastor who had walked through that with his church and congregants.

I'm not Okay, I'll have to see I mean she does a lot of different things on her channel But that was a video she did a couple years ago that I don't know how many people of course the name virtue would stick With you.

Oh, yeah, is that her real name? Huh? Huh? Interesting, it's sort of like Dwight Pentecost Like they just have that that yeah, we had a real name Well, we had a look I know this is totally off the subject But recently a local staple in our in our community died.

His name was George Winterling and he was a meteorologist And I don't know if that was a real name or not But he was I ever since I was a boy, I would watch George winterly.

He came met us at school Okay, he was like a local celebrity.

Yeah.

Well, we all had Paul Barris.

That was our that was our weather Alabama, it's James Spann, you know James Spann the name Winterling just like perfect.

Yeah meteorologist name So when you said her name is virtue, yeah, it's kind of cool Yeah, that's kind of cool and so that that would be one of the things we get a lot of questions about and some of them would just be Like do you have a really good resource on this like fasting? Do you have a really good resource on prayer? Do you have or they'll reach my our women's Bible study at church is wanting to study a book by? Do you know anything about this author? Are they a solid author? Is there somebody my church should be reading? Have you ever heard of this book? Have you ever heard of this series? So they'll be asking our opinions and usually if we don't know it's a good thing That's what I usually tell people.

I'm like if I've not heard of them You're probably okay because a lot of our times would be the ones that more people would know like your Lisa to cursed Who does you know the Proverbs 31 ministry? I don't we don't believe her stuff is solid and so we would tell you know churches not to use Yeah, and a lot of it is what like would be resources for like women like a lot of the you know It's for women.

It's stuff women know about it stuff that's talked about in women's circles And so we tried to just provide resources, you know, if somebody's a new believer, I have it, you know, I'm a new believer Can you give me resources that help me study the Bible? Well, then I would recommend, you know Paul washers his three books on the foundations of the gospel because they're saturated in so much scripture and they helped me So much when I was coming out of false conversion.

I was like, okay clearly I didn't understand the gospel How do I understand the gospel? So Once I watched American gospel, I was like, here's some people who may be able to help and you just so it's kind of stuff I've learned on my own that I hope I can save other women time Like I can just point them directly to there instead of them Just floundering around for a couple years trying to find good resources.

Like I felt like I had to do and how do you? How do you vet? Yourself.

How do you when you say you're you're looking at these resources? What what are the what are the? Standards that you're holding yourself to so usually it's how much scripture does it contain? So which is one of the reasons like on the gospel.

It's generally Paul's washer I'm not saying there's not great ones, but I usually recommend him because there's so much scripture in it.

And so people who have come out of false church movements people who have Maybe didn't have the best teaching growing up.

It really gets them grounded in the scripture or the attributes of God Okay, that's a great thing So RCS Paul has a great teaching on that or Steve Lawson wrote a book on these sorts of things So like it has to have you're naming a lot of Calvinists.

Yes, I am And so but and that is one thing.

I also try to do with resources It's like I don't think anything I recommend would necessarily be overtly Calvinist.

Like I don't Think you would read it and I don't even know what Calvinist was when I was saved out of false conversion I'm like all these words are so new.

I'm like, I thought you'd be talking about diseases, you know different things all these words egalitarian complementarianism and eschatology and ecclesiology and pre-meal post meal pan meal, which is what I am because I haven't had time to get into end times yet, but So, you know all those words and so that would be the number one thing is how much scripture is actually in the book How true is it to the word and a lot of women's ministry their books are just not Focused on the word they're on feelings or things that are happening to you.

They're focused on self the Emotionalism of it instead of like Christ exalting or they portrayed Christ is like this big strong man Rescular masculine and just holding you in his safe arms.

I and I'm like Am I reading a romance novel here? You know and that I mean there are there's seriously stuff out there like that That is just like we're talking about the thrice.

Holy God here Yeah, and this is so irreverent to me and I just if I can just help somebody not do that and it's hard I mean I've had women to give messages that they're their church wants to use maybe something by Lisa to curse or not their church But just people want to do a Bible study and that's what they do And they're like I've told them everything that you've said.

I've seen them all these resources I've showed them, you know, the article links and stuff and they're still gonna do it Yeah, and that is heartbreaking to me But like I'm so thankful that our channel or our Instagram is there because who else would they reach out to? You know until you find a solid church and you get around solid believers like some and some people Online ministry is not a substitute for any church.

Sure But online ministries can be great at directing you to a solid church family Yeah, I've done that I feel you know that for several people people will call me or message me because I put my email out Yeah, and people will say hey, I don't know where to go.

Yeah.

So yeah, I think I think that's true Yeah, I'm gonna throw a name out for you.

Okay, this might be a little dangerous.

That's okay.

Okay, just remember this is all No, but this has a story attached to it, okay, I ask you Priscilla Shire She's are not on are not recommended.

I don't know her.

Yeah.

The only thing I know is she was in what was it war room? Yes, she was an actress.

Yeah.

Yeah And the only reason why I bring her up is we had a lady who is a dear friend of ours Very dear friend of my wife and I and I've known her since high school.

Okay good friends and she had her church was hosting a Teleconference.

Yes that life way does.

Yeah, probably with life way.

She's one of their big.

Yeah, and This this lady And again, I don't want to get into the particulars about it But she voiced her opinion on on online just to say hey, I don't think you know This is not good and ended up being Really given a hard time by her church.

She ended up having to leave It was such a difficult thing because she voiced an opinion.

That was not appreciated by the leadership And I was sad to hear that one.

I was sad to hear how she was treated But also the situation of yeah, the church is choosing to you know, not not not at least Concede some of the concerns of its members.

Yeah, you got a member who's concerned about this person at least hear him out Yeah, at least you know because I know if I were if I were promoting someone in the church And one of our church members said hey, I've got some issues.

I'd want to know what they were Yeah, even if I disagreed I'd want to know well, why yeah What is it that you you know, because I mean I've promoted people in the church You know that that not everybody's fans of yeah, like for even Paul Washerd is not everybody's not everybody.

Yeah I think he's great You know something and some people are Just have a real hard time with yeah, and I have to say well tell me what he's saying.

That's wrong Yeah, I understand if what he says is hard to hear I understand Yeah, I'm saying is difficult, but that's not the same as being wrong Yeah, he's wrong then we don't want to promote him.

But if he's if it's just hard for you to hear that's different That's different.

And so but yeah, I just I was curious about your thoughts.

So you she's on your no-no list Yeah, she'd be on our list.

Number one would be for because Like God speaking outside of his word and she has spent a lot of time going how to hear the voice of God I mean that is just one of us a staple teaching that she has had sure and I mean I've seen sermon clips where she gets up there and like has she exegeted like the Lion King About how God's like Simba in the scene where he's with the hyenas and then I mean, I'm just like, okay And then like her followers I mean just last week somebody said something and they were at a Priscilla Schreier throwing and she was speaking She was talking about like how to speak.

She didn't phrase it words of affirmation But it was like biblical she said like biblical truths over your children and somebody captioned it and it's like I have to do right I have the right to declare Something over the lives of my children.

I'm like, you're just you're getting in very dangerous territory right here where there's so many more solid people You could be listening like she's very She's very captivating but but She's not biblically solid.

Yeah and and and and that's that's the other thing and I think that a lot of people miss is There's better people Here's here's a list of better people.

Yeah that that you would like and and with that I want to ask you that question Okay, so my I know my wife's gonna listen to this.

She's very interested in what you guys do and and she loves podcasts Oh, okay.

I'm very thankful that she she's my she's my my greatest critic.

She'll tell me that one wasn't good Yeah, but I think she'll like this.

Okay But if you were talking to my wife and and you were saying here's here's here's here's five ladies That I've read their stuff and I would trust these ladies Can you think of five off the top? So the two that I would think of off the top of my head would be Michelle Leslie and her Bible study Well, you've done you've had Michelle My buddy, I'm actually her husband and I are now friends on Facebook Oh, okay, and so he posted something and I and I and I responded it was a funny thing Yeah, yeah, and and she like she like gave a little sassy comment Because I was I forget what it was, but it was so funny because I was like, yeah This is a guy thing and yeah, she jumped in on it, but she's such a sweetheart Yes, Susan heck would be another one, which I actually was gonna go to a conference and see her down here in Florida But we had some family stuff come up So I didn't get to see her and then a lot of thing course Michelle Leslie says this to that It's okay not to be taught by women Like I think a lot of times in our circles when we think of not our circles as far as Calvinistic or Reformed or Baptist or whatever? I just mean like out there in like the women's ministry type circles They think they always have to read books by women or about women But you don't you can study Philippians and just go through Philippians.

You can study Titus and just go through Titus It's not always reading a book doing a chapter discussion Going through those types of things you can just do a Bible study together and I think that is actually a cycle We're in a point now where somebody actually has to say that out loud Because there's been people for 20 years 30 years and women ministries and they've never done that I want to I want to say honestly I'm glad that you said it because I never thought about saying it the way you just did.

But yes Women don't have to study a women's Bible study book.

They can study the Bible Yeah, or they could study a men's Bible study book.

I mean they yeah, I mean if they were You know or just a Bible study.

That's what yeah, I guess, you know, like Paul Walsher written by a man.

Yeah Yeah, that's so funny.

Yeah, so it's just and it's interesting because you kind of have to flee up the question like that Sometimes you do like the paradigm is so like female pastors this that's all SBC thing You know somebody asked one time I was on a I was on a podcast after SBC talking about it and somebody submitted Submitted a question said what is the highest role of authority you think a woman can hold in the church? And I said that's really just totally the wrong question And it's such an Americanized version of that question because if the church is set up like it's like say it was in the first century You you don't have other positions of people doing thing You don't have children's pastors and nurseries coordinators or different You have a pastor who brings the word to the church to the whole assembly because families are in there together They they're singing psalms they're Expositing the word and I said the only reason we even think to ask a question like that is because our American version of church Is just so far off Yeah from the biblical model of what churches are and so there's been several things like that that you like people have never even thought You know the in our days, it's like well how much can they do instead of well What does the Bible say about this at all? That's right.

You know, that's right.

That's great stuff And like I said, I know my wife's gonna love it Just just thinking through that thought and and and we I'm very grateful.

We do have a lady here in our church Her name is miss and she was here this morning Okay, you may have seen her and she she coordinates a women's Bible study on Monday evening.

Do you heard him? tomorrow and and and I'm just grateful to have a woman who's She's got multiple children She's got tons of grandchildren and she's just a lovely saint who loves to pour into my wife and other women in the church And that's great.

Yeah, and they sometimes study books.

Sometimes they study other things, but it yeah I'm just really grateful for for that pouring into my wife's life Well, we're getting close to the end of the hour and we didn't know no No, I've really enjoyed the conversation and I'm so grateful to get to introduce my audience to you.

Yeah, and And and what you guys do? But I do want to mention you because you said it a few times about the abolitionists now, are you now you are Part of the abolitionist movement, correct? And I run us we also run a social media account called abolition women, which is on Instagram and Twitter And then we don't have a separate website or a separate Facebook page There's a link to all of our abolition abolition women stuff on our steadfast women website if people want to learn and I do Like a publication called abolition news every couple weeks to kind of keep abolitionists informed of what's going on in the culture in the Legislature and in the news concerning abolition in a short blurb.

Okay.

Tell me what the difference is between An abolitionist and a pro-life advocate because I know that people know but I and I know I know But there are somebody who's gonna hear this and not really understand that there's a distinction So at the the two biggest ones that I would say for somebody who's never even heard a type of conversation Yes, we're talking about abortion by the abortion abortion.

Abolition is that the pro-life movement is secular at its foundation So the pro-life movement does not say you have to be a Christian Actually, most of the pro-life your big pro-life organizations are actually ran by Catholics And so but they don't care there's like atheist pro-life there's a group called atheist pro-life there's a group called secular pro-life There's a group called pal which is like PAAU and they are actually for like abolishing prisons but they're also for Not having abortion I mean, they're for just all kinds of types of things So all of that is welcome in the pro-life movement They don't take any sort of now do I believe that there's a lot of Christians that make up the pro-life movement? I do but as far as the movement itself, it's it's secular in nature and the way and a lot of ways They fight is secular they don't fight from this is a child made in the image of God and abortion is wrong because it is Killing an image bearer of God when God says thou shalt not murder Whereas a pro-lifer would say well, it's a baby in the womb It has a heartbeat at 18 days science tells us that life begins at conception and you know and conception we have human rights Do you believe in human rights? Well, shouldn't you want it's all secular top reasoning Off of a moral foundation of well, what even makes life? What makes it makes us different from a cow in the first place? Well that were made in the image of God But they don't have that foundation and so that would be the number one thing is they're secular in nature and then the way that they fight They The pro-life movement has never supported a bill that criminalizes the act of abortion for everyone involved and so that is a Huge line like they will support laws that regulate abortion as health care Which says when where how and with what and at what point gestation can a baby be killed and who can be? Prosecuted for for that if this is broken where the abolitionist would say Abortions murder life begins at conception and it's equal protection for Whoever is involved which really comes down to the criminalization of the mother Like should the mother who procures an abortion be held criminally responsible for willfully killing her child and the pro-life movement Based on every law they've ever supported says no Yeah and the abolition movement will only support laws that say yes and generally in red states like my state Oklahoma wherever you want to go.

It's the pro-lifers who will kill bills of abolition because They treat the act of abortion as murder For everyone involved and not just some people involved.

And so like we Those would be the two biggest distinctions as the secular foundations and that Pro-lifers are willing to regulate abortion as health care where the abolitionist we will only regulate abortion as homicide Okay, I remember and this has been 20 years ago now.

Okay, but I remember being in seminary.

Mm-hmm and This is not to say anything of the seminary that I went to I'm not speaking against them or anything like that But I remember in a class and I'm not even sure who taught the class, but I it was in some form of counseling class where I was taught that the the The woman receiving the abortion was just as much a victim as the Child, I remember thinking doesn't sound right.

Yeah But but is that kind of what you see from the other yes, they tried to victimize the woman Yes Just like her and that is what you'll see you've seen some shift Like they with the anniversary the one-year anniversary of Roe there was three major pro-life Organizations that came together at live-action.

I know it's live-action students for life I can't remember the other one off the top of my head, but it was like equal protection for all Okay, but the bill not the bill the house resolution.

That's their new North Star for the pro-life movement still exempts women They're from criminal from criminal from and it's like that's not equal protection Like you're aping the abolitionist language and you're still not offering Equal protection and so and because of that second victim narrative and it's But it doesn't make any sense if you believe that what is in the womb truly is human from fertilization Why do you in law act like it's not yeah, you know, it's almost like that I'm politically pro-life, but I earned I'm personally I'm sorry, I'm personally pro-life, but I'm politically pro-choice and that's what a lot of the pro-life movement does They're like, oh, well, I'm personally like what just happened with this new North Star and equal protection, but it still exempts women It's like okay.

It's like oh, well, I personally believe that but when it comes to legislation We are in steel by their actions have not supported any legislation that would truly give our neighbors in the womb equal protection and There and it's just like it's so frustrating because I get people all the time on abolition women Tell me I'm doing like the devil's work of Like, why are you why are you fighting against people who are fighting abortion? I'm like because those people are the reason abortion is legal in my state It's not it's not the pro-choicers that are keeping abortion legal in Tennessee It's pro-lifers that have kept abortion, Tennessee and if kept abortion legal in Tennessee and in Oklahoma and in Texas and in Missouri and in Alabama and I mean you and in Georgia and in South Carolina I mean you name it all of these states that have had bills to totally abolish abortion and every time in a red state It's the pro-life movement that kills them.

Hmm every time okay, the Just to push a little okay, I want to ask you Because I I may I I'm absolutely in the camp of believing that all abortion should be abolished I I think of it in many many ways Well, it is to me It shouldn't even be a question.

Yeah as to whether or not we should be willing to murder a child in the womb at whatever Yeah, the the wherever in in the process.

Yeah, in fact real quick story a side note now I won't go ahead.

We we had a group we had a we had a in our church We had a man who would who would go and do work at abortion clinics.

Try to try to Stop them from having a minister Yeah, but I don't even call it a minister he would hold signs he wouldn't preach but he would hold okay Okay, but he did a lot of work of Catholic stuff and I saw what he was doing And and he had a group that needed a place to stay.

Okay.

It was a students for life I think was the group.

Okay, and he asked if our church would host them So we gave them a place to stay okay for the weekend.

They slept in the the the fellowship hall.

Yeah here and They ended up teaching a class here because they we were letting them use the facility.

Oh, okay.

And so I ended up Exercising my pastoral prerogative and eavesdropping.

Yeah, and I sat in I would have to listen and They were teaching one.

Don't use the Bible.

Don't talk about God only use the scientific approach don't approach this from because if people don't get if people don't believe the Bible then you know, they're they're Incorrect or I'm sorry people don't use the Bible.

So you know, they'll think you they'll just they'll just write you off as a crazy fanatical Person.

So anyway, long story short when I was when they were done I was a little off put yeah And the next year comes around the gentleman who was here at our church asked Can they use the church again and our elders met again and decided we would prefer not Yeah, not because we don't want to help not because we don't want to love on these people Yeah, but to be honest with you, we don't we can't support what they're saying Yeah, and they're wanting to teach this while they're here Yeah, we can't we can't have people teaching that the first thing you tell people is to put away your Bible So in that regard I get where you're coming from on the other hand and again I'm so I'm saying is you know, I'm there and yeah in so many ways the the other side I would say I do know some people who are godly people who are trying to what they I believe fight the beast from within On the pro-life side and I'm not willing to condemn them even though I may not agree with the necessarily the direction they're going Yeah, how do you deal with people like that people that you know want to do well? But they see an incremental approach as the only way to get this done.

So I It's interesting you say that because locally we have a local pregnancy Resource Center And when I started talking about and posting more about abolition, I had one of their board members reach out to me Oh and it was actually over Lindsey Graham when he came out and wanted a federal 15-week ban and I'm like Are you kidding me a fit like like they phrased as a 15-week ban but basically you're saying making sure we have abortion legal basically all of the time because most abortions take place before 15 weeks like I mean, it's just crazy to me and so I had made like what this really means if this were ever passed into law and He messaged me and he said Susan don't you think that this is something that we should support and I said No, I don't and I went through the biblical reasons why and so we went back and forth a little bit And at the end of it, I just said I understand what you're saying All I'm saying is I can't find support in the scripture to do what you are doing and to support what you are supporting and That's kind of how I left it like not on bad terms I didn't have any ill will any malice and I believe he is definitely a brother in Christ But I said, I just can't go down that road with you because I don't see it support in scripture and you're not giving me Any support and scripture for it because there's not support in scripture for it Then it wasn't it was probably about six weeks later out of the blue I got a message from him and it was like two lines and it was like I just wanted you to know that I'm an abolitionist I Really thought about what you said and what you're saying is right.

And so with anything It's just the word does the work like that's something if somebody is truly a Christian and you have given them the biblical case the exegetical work for Abolitionism and say they are trying to reform the movement from within the inside like I believe They can do that But there will be a certain point where God just he will just draw them out because at some point Depending on the organization, I mean because there's really small pro-life organizations There's not I mean not every one of them is the really big one, but at some point It's going to become a lot dwelling with darkness It's people are going to see that it is one side helping keep abortion legal and one side actually working to abolish it and to Me I just leave it in the Lord's hands Like I just give them the scripture if they ask me my position I give it to them I always argue from God's Word when I go and minister at the meals We're always telling women what they are doing what God's Word says so that they know Before they go in because man science doesn't save people Like the gospel and God's Word is the only thing that is the power into salvation and however much of his word goes out Even if it's five seconds worth from the time they leave the car till they get into the door Like it will steal purpose what God has for it to do and I'm just never going back to the days where That's not what I lead with and proclaim because I realize as a Christian.

It's the only thing that I'll ever change hearts and minds So when you're at the mill because I've been myself But I and do you know John Barrows? Oh, yeah.

Well, not personally, but I mean anybody in the movement.

Yeah Obviously seen him and very thankful for what he does and I think he's a stalwart Yes So, so do you do like what he does stand outside and Trying to talk to the women as they go.

So yes, it depends now when the Knoxville Clinic was open We only had access to him at the driveway So we couldn't actually walk along the side where their cars were everything is set up different Now actually at the Bristol mill if anybody wants to help serve there.

They have actually gotten Permission to use the whole neighbor's yard so they can talk to him up the hallway.

But yes, it's like please don't go in there This child is made in the image of God It's a gift from God if you go in there It is a murder you will be a murderer when you come out like because what if nobody's told him abortions murder? I mean we have this phrase like abortions murder and everybody knows it But once somebody has said it out loud to you are now accountable to God for knowing it's murder That you're about to go in and do please don't do this to your child Like we have resources and we're hand standing there with stuff and sometimes people will go in park and we can talk to him for 20 Minutes and we've had babies saved and we've and then we've had a lot of other things that weren't so nice You know that happens out at the clinics.

Do you partner with local women's resource centers to help them or do y'all have? it It depends so at the Knoxville one There was a center that was local if somebody needed tangible resources as far as like diapers and bottles and stuff But we really try to connect them to local churches that have said we are willing To like actually as a church welcome these women in not just send them to a pair of church ministry Yeah, and do those types of things So really what the abolitionists really try to do is actually get involved is through that's one of the tenets of abolitionists through the church Yeah, and that's another that's another fruit of the way It plays out is not just hey go to this center, which the center may also be secular There's a lot of pregnancy resource sentences that are also secular in nature but to get them in a biblical church where people can actually love and give them the truth and help them if they don't know Christ to know Christ and then to come along the side them as a family so that they can raise their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord Wonderful.

Wonderful.

Well, I've really enjoyed And I've enjoyed it and and I think that this has been a very good introduction to you and to your ministry for our Audience, but I do want to now point our audience to actual Connection.

So, okay.

How do people find you and your sister's ministry steadfast women is the name of the ministry and you also have Abolition women abolition women but not abolishing women not abolishing Abolition women so two different ministries that you are leading and how would someone get a hold of you? Find your resources websites emails, whatever you want to share So our website is steadfast women org and then on Instagram We are just at steadfast women and then we're for abolition.

It's just abolition women I'm gonna ask you to know and I'm gonna tell you why I'm it.

Can you spell steadfast? Yeah, s-t-e-a-d FAST no reason why I ask is there was a local church here They were a King James only church and they spelled steadfast Baptist Church with s-t-e-d without the a Parent I guess that's the way it's spelled in the King James.

I never look Okay, no, we do not we do not fast with an a yes s-t-e-a-d FAST and then on Twitter.

It's actually at steadfast underscore women It's the only one that's different sir Twitter and you know It's them because you'll see a picture of two faces that look Yeah, I think our picture on all of our steadfast women has those two Wait, that picture is honestly from like ten years ago.

I tell Sarah all the time I'm like we have got to get a new picture, but well for every young I guess well Thank you so much for coming with our church today visiting with me and getting to know you better I'm enjoying putting a personality with a Twitter friendship.

Yeah, me too.

Thank you for being here with me today.

Thank you And I want to thank you guys for being a part of conversations with a Calvinist I want to remind you that we have a new podcast that comes out every week and you can find us at conversations with a Calvinist comm which takes you straight to our YouTube page You'll also find all of our short videos and our weekly news program That's recently come out called church soup and if you have ideas that you'd like to send me you can send them to me at Calvinist podcast at gmail.com whether it's ideas for Upcoming podcast people you want me to interview or articles that you'd like for me to share on church soup Thank you again for listening to conversations with a Calvinist.

My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.