Dr. Turek on Calvinism Taking the “Easy” Way, Pope Francis, and Others , Say “Go to Thomas!”

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00:31

Well, you will notice that there are thankfully no fires behind me and we have no intention of starting any any conflagrations

00:40

Anything like that? I'm gonna have to ask people

00:47

Exactly How they did that Because you know, you could see smoke you could see wind

00:55

I just I just want to know how close Doug came to the conflagration. Did you see it?

01:01

Oh, yeah, it's Yeah here you see it now

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Yeah Yeah, I'm it's no quarter November up in Idaho and Doug did mention in the in the opening that he's 69 years old would be 70 next year.

01:25

So Maybe that's his way of saying they're gonna they're gonna hold off on Really big exploding things and stuff for his 70th next year.

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I I Don't know But we're not we're not doing a we don't really have anybody to do special effects

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We have no fire. We have no special effects Really? We don't do sound effects around here.

01:51

What? Oh Yet functioning lava lamp.

02:02

We have the lava lamp. There is a lava lamp. Yes, it's It's it's not we didn't get started early enough for it to be lava -ing yet but The fact during the winter.

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I'm not sure it ever really gets lava -ing very much because it has to be warmer. So anyway

02:21

Welcome to dividing light We've got lava, yeah, it's actually just wax but we can call it lava if we want to anyway, here we are and Just quick reminder

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We are we are Lord willin You know, I I was talking to one of the pastors one of the elders one of the guys.

02:44

Sorry I'm not sure what position he holds in the church, but it's one of my students at GBTS.

02:50

I was talking to him today about My stop at their church on the way back from st.

02:56

Charles and I said just make sure to have about 20 gallons diesel

03:03

May be one of the main things we need actually my truck carries 36 and I already bought a 5 gallon can by the way,

03:12

I haven't showed that to you yet But that'll that puts me up to 41 and What?

03:19

yellow Yellow yellow diesel can yeah and There those are going to be the real basic needs

03:31

As we look at the insanity going on in our in our nation. Just make sure you got enough enough fuel to get back

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That'll that'll be the big thing. So Looking forward to being in Lubbock and Emory, Texas Jonesboro, Arkansas, those are on the way back.

03:47

So we go out St. Charles do our regular first weekend of December at St.

03:57

Charles like we have for 22 years now. We were late last year For physical reasons.

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It was in just February of this year actually And I've been there since then

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I did an evening on one of the last trips as well but those folks just put up with me whenever I show up and I don't know how

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I took them took them over like that, but they they put up with me. So it's great So looking forward to this next trip and once again sincere.

04:27

Thanks to everyone Who supports us in doing this and getting out there in those churches and Addressing the topics we're addressing lots of things to get to today

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I'm not gonna spend too much time here, but I I do think it is important to You know, we we have spent

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I wonder if anyone has gone back and Added up the number of hours.

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We've spent responding to talking about discussing the claims of latent flowers and the provisionists you'll notice we haven't done that a whole lot recently because To be honest with you.

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There's only so much to be said. There's only so many ways to demonstrate that provisionism is a man -centered

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Incoherent unbiblical Mess of gobbledygook and we've done that over and over again.

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We've done it in debate and Whenever you address especially latent flowers you can expect three four five six seven eight hours of Rambling Normally non sequiturs in response that just to be honest with you at my age.

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I'm not interested in wasting the time listening to all that stuff anymore but once in a while a

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Video popped up with Frank Turek, and I just don't understand Frank You know, we met one time when

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I was at SES back when they had on -campus students and stuff like that, you know

06:10

Michael Brown and I had the debate and we

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It was it was a good time and he seems like a really nice guy And we talked a little about sola scriptura.

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We talked a little bit about Reformed Theology, I suppose in passing But ever since then whenever I have responded anything

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Frank Turek has said for example, I think one of the most useful clips out there is

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The comparison of Frank Turek's response to David Silverman and my response

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David. So we both debated David Silverman and He asked us the exact same question and we responded to that question in completely different ways and I think

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Silverman was had no idea what to do with my response Not that it wasn't clear it was and he did not respond to it, but he was used to dealing with the

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Arminian Non -reformed non -presuppositional evidentialist argumentation that Dr.

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Turek presented and In comments on Roman Catholicism and a number of other issues we've we've responded we've indicated our interest in discussing the issue but Silence crickets from from Dr.

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Turek. So I didn't I'm not expecting this to go anywhere but it's useful and What I don't understand about it is

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What is said? by Dr. Turek here is I Would expect something like this from Norm Geisler because Norm Geisler stopped thinking about Reformed Theology Decades and decades and decades before he died and so he

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Just wouldn't listen. I've I sat there and tried And and it just the veil comes down and just they're just not listening.

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There's there's nothing wasn't anything going on there So when you when you hear just horrible misrepresentations of What it is we believe in and why we believe it you just have to go you have to go why what is the motivation and In many instances it just simply seems to me that the people on the other side

08:38

They don't want to listen. The funny thing is that's what he's saying about us except the vast majority of reformed people have come out of Yeah, sure

08:49

Their reformed people were raised within the reformed tradition sure but the vast majority of people came out of a synergistic perspective and abandoned that and hence know very well what the objections to Reformed Theology are and Those of us have written on it

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Potter's Freedom gives clear evidence of Listening very carefully to Norm Geisler's objections

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And I think they would be very similar to Frank Turek's and so it's um

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It's fascinating and hopefully it'll be useful. It's a short clip What Did I pipe the audio over well,

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I don't know I'm Trying is that office

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TV that one? All right.

09:46

Well, we'll see if that works So here is Layton Flowers who again talks about the time when he was a

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Calvinist. He wasn't I've talked to too many people who knew him at that time. He's never been able to produce any meaningful documentation that he ever

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Understood the Reformed worldview and function from it and presented it He may have thought himself five -point

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Calvinist, but he doesn't have a clue what that means never was Just all there is to it

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But he still does the I'm the former Calvinist stuff and it's sort of sort of silly but anyway let's let's listen to this and respond to Layton Flowers and Frank Turek have the the

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The motivation for evangelism like I should right if that's the case it might just be easier to say

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I Can explain this God just hasn't selected them If you have two viable options in front of you

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Two viable interpretations in front of you one one of which has actually been more popular throughout

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Christian history among scholars Now now think about this. I'm having to it's so loud.

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I'm having to hold the earpiece like three inches from my ear um Layton wants to do the

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There are lots of ways of interpreting scripture you see and there's there's no one one consistent way and So now he's so now you have

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Scripture is unclear and then we can look at church history. Well, you know Uh Remember Layton Flowers is a big fan of the

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Calvinist came from the Manichaean Foolishness that we've debunked for quite some time now and so it

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There there's there's no way to engage. We've went whenever we've engaged Layton on church history stuff.

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It's been embarrassing For Layton, he doesn't know church history and he's made incredible mistakes regarding church history

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But there is no question that Depending on how you define church history in the broad spectrum of things.

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There is no question of the fact that man Centered religion is far more popular amongst men than a theological understanding of God's sovereignty and man's inability outside of the sovereign grace of God No argument about that at all, but that's an argument for our side

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Okay, that's that's that's an argument for our side It is it is there is no question that God's truth regarding his sovereignty over his people has to be reiterated over and over again because the tendency of man is to always insert himself into the glory of God and And so we have to hammer away on It is by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves

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It is the gift of God not of works as any man should boast Because we have the tendency of boasting

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That's our argument and he doesn't even seem to realize that like I said if he had ever

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Actually been reformed he would understand that Again, I have no reason to believe whatsoever

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That he ever that he ever was but there you go Namely the the view that we hold to the more free will perspective if you will it has always been more popular throughout church history than the the more predestinarian or Deterministic kind of interpretations if you have both of those in front of you and you're and you're actually studying the best of both scholars from both sides

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Why would you choose the one? Mm -hmm. It seems to make God the author of sin that seems to impugn his character that seems to possibly undermine other very strong texts that indicate

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God's frustration for when we don't choose to follow him and so once again you have this there isn't

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Layton knows he cannot refute Ephesians one he's tried and has just face planted and failed at at the process and You saw what happened with Romans 9

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And Romans 8 and and all the so what you have to do is you have to go well, there are equally valid interpretations you see and Not equally now now he'll point to this person's interpretation over there and this first interpretation over there

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But then they'll disagree with each other on all sorts of things. There is one consistent

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Interpretation on these issues on the other side that is consistent with the

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Nature of God now remember Layton was one who just recently saying yeah The Southern Baptist should never have gotten rid of the open theist.

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You know, it's it's a perfectly valid philosophical Speculation and discussion and blah blah blah and we've been saying forever and a day

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You know, it just it's just so obvious where he is and and Where he's gonna end up there's just It's so plain to anybody watching it

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But then you'll then you get these arguments well in impugns is his his his character I think creating a universe

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Filled with purposeless evil is the greatest impugning of God's character ever and As soon as you throw back at that, well, well, well, you know, we're not and you can't get them

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You can't get them to commit he won't He's so wishy -washy on his actual doctrine of God that is well, you know, that's there and All he can say is but we what we can't say is what the

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Calvinist says I can't tell you positively what actually to believe but what we can't say is that we just we just have to be

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You know We have to redefine grace and make grace dependent upon man's

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Responses and and all the rest of the stuff that we've spent years Document, we're not gonna go back over it again, but This is setting up a real straw man situation and Dr.

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Turek's response should be well, you know this I'm not really sure that's a accurate way of putting things but when you're on somebody else's show frequently you don't get that and The the wrath of God and the punishment of God for doing things that he's supposedly determined for you to do that You couldn't help.

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I don't know why things Yeah, I was gonna say I don't know why they choose it late and I can speculate it might be because it's easier

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Right, and it might easier in the sense that well, look these people are just on their way to hell

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There's nothing I can do about it. You know, I I'll throw a Bible verse at him See if you know see if if maybe they'll respond

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I don't know if they're elect or not, but gee if they don't respond, I guess they're just not elect. So I don't really have the the

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The motivation for evangelism like I should right if that's the case it might just be easier to say

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I Can explain this God just hasn't selected them, but and and it also makes me feel better.

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Well, he selected me Right, he selected me and I don't really have any free choice in it.

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But gee, I'm pretty special now Now this kind of straw man is just reprehensible.

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Dr. Turek. You just I Don't know who you're trying to convince here.

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You're certainly not reaching anyone who's reformed because we know that this thing is

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Getting close to the same conflagration that that we saw behind Doug Wilson in today's video

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You you get this award today. Dr. Turk. You are straw manning badly and you're demonstrating a fundamental level of ignorance

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You know, it's Dr. Turk we start our services at apologia by reading from a

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Book that clearly you've never seen and never read titled the valley of vision and It's a collection of Puritan prayers

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The nine -year -old kids in my church Would look at what you just said and go that man doesn't understand mommy

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Because they would know they've heard Enough Puritan prayers to know that that's not what that's what reformed people believe for a sec.

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Oh, it's easier really really That's why every day of the week there are teams from Apology a church out it at strip clubs and out in Mill Valley and at abortion mills and and that's why we're planning a church in Salt Lake City and That's that's why because it's easier what and The whole idea well, he chose me it makes me special again

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Anyone who's done any meaningful reading at all any serious Scholarly reading or any just serious reading at all knows that that is a horrific misrepresentation

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It's it's interesting when we we had the The that opening reading from the valley of vision this

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Sunday Dr. Joe boot mentioned to me That he now lives

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In a in a place in England where he can walk across the street go to church

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And it was the former rector of that church a conservative Anglican Church that put the valley vision together he's the one that collected all those prayers and If you just take the time you would you would see that those prayers will over and over and over and over again refute

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What you just said? and in fact If you understood reformed theology at all you would understand unconditional election

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It's not because I'm special. It's because I'm not special. I didn't fulfill any conditions

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There wasn't anything in me that drew God's election So you need to understand dr.

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What's your your flippant? shallow misrepresentations are

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Saying to us this is not a man who understands what he's talking about and I don't understand why it is

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But given the things you've said it's interesting. This is the day after Reformation Day Given the things you've said about Roman Catholicism.

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You don't understand what the Reformation was about You don't understand what Luther and Erasmus were dealing with You understand why

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Luther said that Erasmus had touched upon The heart of the matter the hinge upon which it all turns and what was it?

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the freedom and bondage of the will the exact thing you all are talking about and You all are on Erasmus's side.

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You're on the Roman side against the Reformation I hope you weren't dressing up as Martin Luther or anything yesterday

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Because y 'all are on the other side of the chasm. You are opposed the

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Reformation. You're not a part of the Reformation I know Layton's tried to get around that again another face -plantingly bad attempt

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Because on the first written debate of the Reformation this entire video is on the side of Erasmus against Luther That's that's that's just a fact.

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So I don't know who you're trying to convince here Maybe you're just trying to you know, cheer up the troops.

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They're already convinced that That we need to avoid Talking to those

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Calvinist or listening to what those Calvinist are saying, whatever but for those of us Who are listening this this is just another example of well, you know, here you go with more evangelicals that just Have no earthly idea what it is.

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We're saying they're not listening And and that's that's a shame

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Okay, I'm speculating. I'm not a Calvinist. I don't know what's in their head me. Yeah, I'm not a

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Calvinist in their head That's the problem you could know if you wanted to Let me point something out we tend to write books

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There are lots of memes out there about you know If you can't afford seminary get into an argument with the Calvinist and he'll lecture you forever for free

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That kind of thing and it's true So again, there's no reason for you to be sitting there going.

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Why just speculating? I don't know when the documentation demonstrates your speculation is not only based on ignorance, but it's it's based upon a rejection of the

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Easily available obvious information that if you just you know, take the time to look at it you might

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You might not say this kind of stuff. Maybe it might it might be that they've never heard the other side

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That could be the case Yeah, no I mean,

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I honestly can't think I I'm trying here.

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I cannot think of any reformed person that is in such a cave

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That they have not heard. I mean use using the same example

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One of the things that I do When I'm in town at apologia, I did Sunday is we have a catechism question in the bulletin

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I Think we're on question 35 on effectual calling right now And man, it's a rich rich rich rich question and the answer is really really deep on monergism and the role of spirits and and so what

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I do is I go through pretty much phrase by phrase with the response and then the verse that we memorize and Make sure that as we're memorizing this we're not just memorizing things by rote, but we understand its relevance and Over the years

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I've been been there heading for five years now. Um, I Have repeatedly

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Explained to people Why it is that people struggle with the things that we're saying

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What are the views those people out there and I don't have to misrepresent them There's no reason to The more clearly and fully and accurately you represent the other side the more devastating your critique and answer can be and the more useful to the people

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So as I'm going through effectual calling, I'm talking about okay, this is where people are coming from and this is how the

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Gospels presented and that and you don't have an effectual call Because that's a work of the

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Spirit of God doing these certain things For example that the phrase I looked at Sunday was was enlightening their minds with the knowledge of Christ This is something that has to come from outside of us and I'll talk about What synergists like yourself believe?

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about man Anthropologically now by the time we're question 35 the catechism

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We've already dealt with the deadness of man and sin and and and things like that, obviously but This is this is a part of what we do we make sure that people accurately understand and again, many of them have come from that but that's a that's a part of being truthful in in how you deal with with these issues and it would it would help a lot if we all

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You know attempted to do that. Maybe they haven't turned into they're tuned into soteriology 101.

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Yeah Well, I think you know back when

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I was a Calvinist I would think it was probably the latter I hadn't really been introduced to the other side and therefore I adopted that Again, I hadn't been introduced to the side.

26:08

Really really Layton you were you were Raised on the

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Puritans, right? you were only thing you had read outside of Pilgrim's Progress was the

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Institute's the Christian religion and Maybe a few articles by BB Warfield, right?

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That interpretation because it was the one introduced to me first and and so that that's the one then that's the reason that I adopted

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It I didn't I don't think I ever had the motivation of being lazy or trying to avoid evangelism when I was a Calvinist I don't ever remember that being you know a motivation

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Though it could be the motivation of some I have no idea We can't we can't read the minds of Calvinist as to why they choose one particular interpretation of our another

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It's just been my experience in the time doing this that very few of especially the young internet type

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Calvinists Have actually given time to really Examine the deep theological robust scholars from the other side.

27:11

Yeah. Yeah those robust scholars. You'll notice that you know, they They can

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They have a real broad broad view of things So there's there's all sorts of views of God you can come up with you know and you can you can play around with open theism and and The problem is

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Layton can't come up with a firm foundation to stand on and tell us really about God's Sovereign decree or does he really know the future?

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Why does he know the future? He's come up with all sorts of theories And that we've just demonstrated are

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So far out to lunch. It's it's it's not even funny But that's that sound scholarship that none of the rest of us have ever examined

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It's like yeah Okay. Yeah, they have mostly kind of surrounded themselves an echo chamber of other

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Calvinist telling them what the other side believes Yeah, that that never happens amongst the 101 folks and that's one of the reasons they treat us like we're doofus is sometimes is because they just assume that we're we're as dumb

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As the the scholars and the leaders within their world their community are telling them about us

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And and that's one of the reasons I started the program is to say hey there's some really sharp guys like dr. Turek and and many many others who do not hold to a

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More deterministic reading of the text. I don't really have Yeah, okay. Well there you know wasn't much there and in fact, it was more latent than it was

28:44

Frank, but but dr. Turek you really If you're gonna address this issue brother, you've got a lot of reading you need to be doing a lot of reading

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You need to be doing Because your words just demonstrate a Fundamental lack of understanding of the basics of this issue and so I would highly encourage you to To consider those things.

29:07

It would be it'd be very very very very helpful. There wasn't enough there for a

29:13

Radio free Geneva or anything like that, but we just wanted to want to get to that this morning.

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I was Directed to an Article, let me see if I can

29:28

Yes, I was directed to an article on The Vatican Files website, this is not a

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Roman Catholic website. Okay, so you need to understand that and Leonardo de

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Chirico wrote an article Titled go to Thomas Who will follow the

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Pope's invitation? Go to Thomas who will follow the Pope's invitation.

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This is very timely Nothing could be more explicit go to Thomas this warm invitation

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Was issued by Pope Francis to participants of the International Thomistic Congress September 21st and 24th that was you know, like last week

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Well, not last week last month. Not very long ago these days

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That was it's almost ancient history, isn't it? Yeah, sadly September 21st 24th during an audience at Vatican in his address the

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Pope extolled the thought of Thomas Aquinas as a sure guide for Roman Catholic faith and a fruitful relationship with culture citing

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Paul the sixth in Lumen Ecclesiae 1974 John Paul II Fides et

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Ratio 1998 who had magnified the importance of Thomas's thought for the contemporary

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Roman Church Francis stood in the wake of recent Popes and Emphasizing superlative appreciation for the rigor the figure of Thomas while adding his own

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This is nothing new for centuries Roman Catholicism has regarded Thomas Aquinas as its champion His voice is often considered the highest deepest and most complete of Roman Catholic thought and belief

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Canized by John the 22nd as early as 1323 He was proclaimed a doctor of the church by Pius the fifth in 1567 to be the premier

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Roman Catholic theologian whose thinking would defeat the Protestant Reformation Now if you look at the date 1567 ring any bells any time frames

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That's 50 years after the beginning of the Reformation So the counter -reformation has begun in the

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Council of Trent and the Council of Trent of course codifies Thomas's perspectives as the bulwark against the

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Protestant Reformation during the Council of Trent the Summa Theologica was symbolically placed next to the

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Bible as a testament to its primary importance in formulating the

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Tridentine decrees and canons Against justification by faith alone and other Protestant doctrines in the 17th century

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He was considered the defender of the Roman Catholic theological system by Robert Bellarmine the greatest anti -Protestant controversialist who influenced many generations of Catholic apologists over the centuries and I would say up to the present time in 1879

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Pope Leo the 13th issued the encyclical Eterni Patris in which he pointed to Thomas as the highest expression of Philosophical and theological science notice the order there notice that At Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, you've had a shift the

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PhD program to philosophical theology rather than systematic theology and in the center of that is

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Thomas Aquinas I'm sure Pope Leo the 13th would be very pleased with Midwestern right now

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The second Vatical Vatican radical the second Vatican Council stipulated that the formation of priests

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Should have Thomas as the supreme guide in their studies quote the students should learn to penetrate them i .e.

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the mysteries of salvation more deeply with the help of speculation under the guidance of st.

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Thomas and to perceive their interconnections and quote Speculative theology speculative

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I've seen that somewhere recently. Oh Yeah, that's in the introduction to Dr.

33:38

Zolzal's book speculative theology Second Vatican Council said in the form of formation of Roman Catholic priests

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Fascinating of Recent popes this has already been mentioned considering this what could

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Pope Francis say but go to Thomas? Francis indicated not only the need to study

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Thomas, but also to contemplate the master before approaching his thought

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Yeah, the master isn't Jesus there. The master is Thomas Thus to the cognitive and intellectual dimension

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He added a mystical one in this way He caused Thomas already a theologian imbued with wisdom and asceticism to be seen as even more

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Roman Catholic This mix best represents the interweaving of the intellectual and contemplative traditions prior to Roman Catholicism Happened we're walking past here to remind you once again of the definition of great tradition exegesis offered by Dr.

34:46

Craig Carter graduate of Roman Catholic Institution for his PhD which uses the exact same terminology and language and categories as we have by Popes and councils of the

35:00

Roman Catholic Church just Pointed out just a fact just mention it in passing

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The International Congress had the exploration of the resources of Thomas thought in today's context as its theme

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I could see them meeting at Midwestern Thomism is not just a medieval stream of thought but a system that is both solid and elastic at the same time

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All seasons of Roman Catholicism have found it inspiring for the diverse challenges facing the

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Church of Rome Including the Reformation first the Enlightenment project second and now post -modernity.

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Oh, yes, we hear much about post -modernity, too as Result of the Congress we will continue to hear more about Thomas and Thomism not only in historical theology and philosophy

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But also in other fields of knowledge that were once far from previous interpretive traditions of Thomas In recent years, we have witnessed a growing fascination with Thomas Aquinas and Thomism by evangelical theologians

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Especially coming from the North American context they seem to be attracted to the great tradition he represents

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This phenomenon should be studied because it signals the existence of internal movements within evangelical theological circles

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Protestant theology of the 16th and 17th centuries had a critical view of Thomas in a sense

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Thomas could not be avoided given his stature and importance for theology, but he was read with selective and theologically adult eyes rather important there

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Then for various reasons there has been a certain neglect not only of Thomas but with pre -reformation

36:42

Historical theology as a whole today in the face of the pressures coming from secularization and the identity crisis felt in some evangelical quarters

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Thomas is perceived as a bulwark of traditional theology that needs to be urgently recovered

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That's the very language that we're hearing all the time, right? recovery It is often overlooked that Roman Catholicism is considered

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Thomas as its champion in its Anti -reformation stance and also in its subsequent anti -biblical developments such as the 1950

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Marian dogma of the bodily ascension of Mary Rome considers Thomas as the quintessentially

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Roman Catholic theologian and thinker. There's no question about that Absolutely, no question about that.

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And of course when you just point out that 95 % of the books being recommended in the recovery of Thomas are written by Roman Catholics That does seem to sort of fit together with the authors thinking

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Go to Thomas is an invitation that even a growing number of practitioners of evangelical theology would take up The point is not to uncritically study or absolutely avoid

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Thomas rather to provide the theological map with which one approaches him It is necessary to develop an evangelical map of Thomas Aquinas if Rome considers

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Thomas its chief architect Can evangelical theology approach him without understanding that Thomas stands behind everything

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Roman Catholicism believes and practices? and so one of the questions, you know,

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I Posted that article and then

38:22

I Posted the following tweet quote In light of this article, let me say it directly if Your Protestant theology needs

38:34

Thomas to define its doctrine of God You have no reason to be a

38:39

Protestant. Oh, that's pretty blunt Yeah But let's let's let's think about what it said.

38:48

By the way, I am wearing my reformed Biblicist t -shirt today So that seems to fit really well

38:54

You haven't washed yours Yet. Oh Okay, why do you have to?

39:03

Okay, rich rich Evidently has to wash his before he wears it for some reason.

39:08

It's not like we got off a dead body or something Just you never know where it's been.

39:15

Okay. All right Anyway, so I'm wearing my reformed Biblicist t -shirt And so I guess it fits if your

39:22

Protestant theology needs Thomas to define his doctrine of God now that did I say?

39:28

If your Protestant theology of God doesn't absolutely ignore the medieval period then you don't you you have no reason to be

39:35

Protestant No Again we have this we have so many straw men

39:43

I mean just it's smoky in the internet these days the the

39:49

We need a big fan of truth to just suck all this smoke out from all the straw men.

39:55

They're being burned Um, we are not saying that you need to burn the

40:00

Summa We are not saying that you need to ignore Thomas Aquinas We are not saying that You know anyone who studies church history should know what the five ways are should know should know how especially anybody who's particularly concerned about Christian apologetics today

40:23

Has to recognize that the influence that Aquinas has had massive influence on Norman Geisler and any type of classical apologetics approach and if you listen to the dialogue between Greg Bonson and RC Sproul on apologetic methodology

40:46

You have to recognize the impact of Thomas on RC Sproul's categories of thought

40:52

So you can't ignore any of these things and nobody's saying that you should what we are saying is that when you take

41:00

Thomas's teachings and Thomas's formulations and Make them the end point of a process of development so that He becomes the pinnacle of the expression of theology proper

41:17

No, he's not the pinnacle of the expression of anything else from their perspective

41:22

He's not the pinnacle the expression of the view of Scripture. He's not the pinnacle of the expression of ecclesiology sacramentology and he's certainly not the pinnacle the expression of soteriology and So so we are hearing people who want to chop

41:42

Thomas's theology into pieces Something he never would have agreed with And say well, you know, you would agree with 88 % of what

41:52

Thomas Aquinas said no idea how you come up with any of that stuff, but you can

41:59

You know that other you can put that other 12 % aside. Okay Here's the problem here's

42:07

Here's where we're we're gonna run into problems and we've been talking about this for a long long time if you say

42:18

That Thomas's specific formulations and especially the emphases that he produces that he enunciates our

42:34

Definitional of orthodoxy So that if you question

42:42

Thomas's Proclaiming of divine simplicity a doctrine that the vast majority of my critics today if they were in ministry ten years ago had never heard of and never preached

43:01

Admit it, you know, it's true if you take his

43:08

Making that absolutely central based upon if you're honest

43:16

Categories either of medieval thought or Of Aristotelian categories and say

43:25

This is where we have to go if we're going to be true Trinitarians. And if you question any of this

43:32

You're a neo -sassanian You don't believe in these things You aren't confessional blah blah blah.

43:39

Okay, that's that's what's going on And we all know that's what's going on Well any of us that are involved in this a lot of other people are like,

43:48

I don't know what's going on And and I get it. I understand but it's happening and it's impacting schools and programs and all sorts of things in the process, that's the issue and if You could if you make the argument and it's a good argument that your doctrine of God Has to be foundational to all your other doctrines if the

44:21

Roman Catholics have the doctrine of God, right and the Protestants don't

44:26

Then upon what basis are you seriously going to argue? that we've got the gospel right and the

44:33

Roman Catholics don't isn't that an honest question and They're all my

44:39

Catholics going Yep, they're they're loving this They're just sitting there going.

44:45

Oh, we just yo can't wait. Can't wait till next Easter to you know

44:52

Invite y 'all in If if You know, there have been people who have said the

45:02

Catholics are right about the doctrine of God but the Protestants are right about the gospel and You're like, how does that work?

45:11

How do you how do you make that argument in any meaningful fashion? And so I posted that because If your

45:26

Protestant theology needs Thomas to define his doctrine of God, then it's not based upon Scripture as the sole and sufficient source, right?

45:36

so You read the first chapter of Westminster. You read the first chapter of London you read any of the sections on scripture for any of the great

45:48

Protestant traditions and What you're saying is we don't really believe that Because we actually believe that to have a true and sound doctrine of theology

46:04

Theology proper you need Thomas Aquinas. You've got to have his formulations So evidently nobody before Thomas had the whole thing figured out

46:15

But There there you go, and so if you need

46:21

Thomas for this the foundation of your theology You're you're not gonna you're not you don't have a

46:28

Protestant foundation So you can continue to be a Protestant if you want to but if someone comes along and can press upon you properly

46:38

Your inconsistency will become self -evident over time That's what

46:44

I meant Got some interesting pushback on that For example the beard

46:54

Mitchell Wigand Posted so is there some benefit to be gained from Thomas Aquinas some positive use

47:04

It's helpful to consider these words were well known and he goes on quotes from Stephen Sharnock Notice the

47:10

Mott and Bailey stuff. So on the one hand you say Aquinas is necessary his formulations are

47:21

The definition of Orthodox theology proper and Then when you point out the problems with that and the fact that you know

47:33

The the current Pope is saying go to Thomas and you don't want to be saying the same things as the current

47:40

Pope Because it sort of casts a light on you you don't want no matter how big your beard is

47:47

So you say well, well, isn't there some benefit we're not talking about some benefit There's benefit from from reading every single theologian in the medieval period that impacted the state of theology at the time of Wycliffe and Huss and the

48:07

Reformation So there's you can find great stuff in Bonaventura Bernard of Clairvaux, you can find all sorts of great stuff

48:18

No one has ever said otherwise not once but when it comes to what the foundation of Our theology is what we have said is it doesn't matter if it's

48:35

Thomas or if it's Calvin They're not inspired. They're not the

48:40

Anustos they must be judged by a standard that is fundamentally different than them and It's Rome that says you can't do that because you have the great tradition and Now we have reformed

48:56

Baptist Talking about the great tradition and I keep trying to say if you all would put your spears and your your your torches down long

49:06

To listen to what I'm saying you might You might gain something

49:12

Because I still think I have done more interaction with Roman Catholics on the issue of authority and Theology then all of you combined

49:26

All of you But you don't want to listen You've you've gotten you've bitten the apple and it's like oh it tastes so good

49:37

This is wonderful. So it's not a matter of well, isn't there something that you know, that type of thing and so Nathan Hunter a

49:52

Student at the Master's Seminary and I believe he works at Grace to you if I recall correctly Who is a

49:57

Baptist and this is the funny thing? Let me let me point something out to all of you Baptists Believing in believers baptism is not a part of the great tradition.

50:08

Hello Anybody home Anybody home

50:18

Rejecting the Development of ecclesiastical offices outside of elders and deacons

50:29

Is not a part of the great tradition Hello Lucy So if you're gonna be a

50:37

Baptist Then you need to recognize You're walking into massive inconsistency

50:47

So Nathan Hunter says if you deny simplicity and passability inseparable operations appropriations and pure actuality as It has been historically defined

50:59

Quote by good and necessary consequence and quote from Scripture Then you are an inconsistent

51:06

Protestant so This is in direct response to my statement in light of this article

51:11

Let me say it directly if your Protestant theology needs Thomas to define his doctrine of God You have no reason to be Protestant now is

51:17

Nathan's response Relevant to what I said. No, it's not it does not respond to the reality of the centrality of Thomas to the definition of the doctrine of God and The issues that that raises in regards to scriptural sufficiency and the authority of the

51:37

Church of Rome and the authority of tradition and magisteriums and Everything else that is fundamental to Thomas's Theology as a whole

51:48

But what it is is it is the current counter -attack that's coming from this perspective and that is ad hominem

51:57

Assert that White's denying this this and this okay, so if you deny simplicity, so in other words notice how it's placed as It has been historically defined, but then by what?

52:11

not by creeds and confessions not by Theologians but by good and necessary consequence from Scripture now anybody recognize that phrase

52:24

If you're a foreign Baptist or a Presbyterian you better The reason the

52:29

Presbyterian recognizes it is Because it's from the Westminster Confession, but the

52:37

Baptist should recognize it Because it's not in the London Confession. Oh, it's one of those differences.

52:45

Yep, and purposely so Purposely so because it is one of the key phrases used by Pato Baptists to defend

52:55

Pato Baptism against Baptist Biblicist Argumentation for credo baptism credo baptism is biblicist

53:08

It really is There's no question about that. And so I find it fascinating that a

53:15

Baptist Would be quoting the very phrase used by the

53:22

Pato Baptists To explain Really to as their defense we we credo

53:32

Baptists come along and say, you know, um Every single

53:38

Example that we can provide you of baptism in the New Testament follows our pattern not yours

53:46

Well, you see there are good and necessary consequences if you reason this way

53:54

If you if you don't reason that the New Covenant should be defined by the

54:01

New Covenant scriptures but by the Old Covenant scriptures Then by good and necessary consequence we come up with the idea of infant baptism but again, this is

54:12

Baptist and Baptists don't stand in the great tradition. However, you define that Ecclesiastically Sacrament in the sacraments in Soteriology we don't we go there there were major major major problems

54:34

That developed from tradition and so how do you define so when we talk about simplicity

54:44

How do you define simplicity? well If you're gonna be a consistent

54:50

Baptist and you can define simplicity the same way you define baptism Maybe you ought to do it out of the

54:55

Bible. Might that be the way to do it? that's why biblicism is being turned into an insult and Why those of us who see what's going on go ain't an insult

55:08

Not insult. I know you all are redefining it as You and your Bible undertreat. That's not we believe not what we ever believed and none of you ten years ago believe that either

55:18

And you know it that's what drives you nuts is We were all together ten years ago

55:25

Well, we've learned no you've changed You've changed on fundamental issues

55:32

My mode of dress or my cross or my ink is not the issue Biblical sufficiency is and you know it deep down inside.

55:40

You know it deep down inside Every one of you do and so how about we define?

55:52

Simplicity as the doctrine that God's being is not made up of lesser parts. His being is simple

55:59

It couldn't be made of lesser parts because God is the creator of all things. That's a biblical teaching

56:05

He is the only true God. That's a biblical teaching. He is eternally exists as God. That's a biblical teaching We can very clearly establish these things without any reference

56:17

Whatsoever to Thomas Aquinas or John Calvin for that matter These are biblical teachings and if God is the eternal creator of all things

56:27

Then he could not be made up of lesser parts because he's has to be the maker of anything that would be a lesser part right

56:34

So God's being has to be simple It cannot be complex you top it made up of of parts where you can take out a part of God or something like that Has to be so and you can demonstrate that Biblically and for some of you that's frightening

56:49

Shouldn't be for most people. It's like Chalk one up for simplicity

56:56

But if you go, oh no, no, no, that's not enough Simplicity has to mean that God's omniscience is

57:08

God's holiness well, there's there's a problem because You can't prove that biblically.

57:15

Can you of course not? I've looked at you guys as best attempts. You don't even try

57:21

You know, you can't do it you've got to do the natural theology excuse for going to philosophical categories and creation of External authorities that no prophet no apostle nobody who wrote a word of Scripture ever dreamed of or communicated

57:40

You have to So Redefine if you will I believe in in the biblical doctrine of the

57:47

Trinity the biblical doctrine of monotheism the biblical doctrine of God's simplicity If you want to go beyond the biblical and Pretend that you're very wise in doing so You all go for it.

58:02

I'm not going with you and I've got some news for you There are so many people contacting me

58:10

Pastors students in schools That are going please don't stop please don't stop keep responding to this stuff and I'm not gonna give up because this is where we've been my goodness.

58:23

The first debate I did was in defense of solo scriptural That was in August of 1990

58:31

I'm an old dog. I don't Ain't ain't learning new tricks Especially when I have absolutely positively not one single meaningful reason to do so not one single meaningful reason to do so So I do not deny simplicity.

58:48

I do not deny impassibility but even then These things have to be defined and Discussed.

58:58

Did you see what happened? when a Quote from R .C.

59:03

Sproul was posted. Oh, he he must change that later because look what he says over here as If because R .C.'s

59:11

gone, he's now our Pope He's now our Thomas sad,

59:18

I Wasn't R .C.'s buddy, but I I know that we could have had a meaningful conversation

59:28

About stuff like this without the cancellation stuff going on I I know that could have happened

59:37

But what do you mean by impassibility? When the great division took place amongst

59:44

Reformed Baptists back between 2010 and 2014 over this issue back then

59:51

I read papers from the two sides and I Didn't feel like you could you could slide a a business envelope between the two

01:00:00

But they still end up splitting over it Whatever you say about impassibility if you turn

01:00:09

God Into a being that is not holy love and Holy wrath and Wholly focused upon his own glory and turn him into the

01:00:26

Greek Unchanging unmoved mover You have left the scriptures is

01:00:35

God controlled by emotion, of course not does God have human emotions to where they just man sometimes

01:00:43

You don't even know why and all of a sudden your mood changes. God is not controlled by moods but when

01:00:53

God says that he has wrath against sin, it's wrath and And when

01:01:01

God says he loves his people he loves and they are pure and they are real and if you are so wedded to Thomas that you end up with a

01:01:14

God that is a stone monument You've missed the

01:01:21

Bible You've missed the prophets. You've missed the Apostles. They have no concept of such a

01:01:29

God so you better have I Can't think of a doctrine where where you need to have more of a fundamentally balanced

01:01:42

Biblical Understanding you need to be a biblicist When you define your doctrine of God you must

01:01:50

You absolutely positively must inseparable operations again

01:01:59

If you mean by that that the only way you can tell a difference between father son and spirit is by their internal operations

01:02:07

Nobody, it's real simple. I'll You guys put somebody up.

01:02:13

Let's debate that Let's debate that the only way that you could never find a way in the pages of the

01:02:22

New Testament where the Apostles and prophets Found therein

01:02:29

Distinguished between the Father the Son and the Spirit by what they did by their relationship to one another

01:02:35

I sit here and say Jesus was not praying to himself and you do not have to engage in these handstands turning

01:02:44

Jesus into a schizophrenic Person where you're having to apply this out there

01:02:50

We're gonna have to do mind of God exegesis and all the rest is kind of stuff I can let the

01:02:56

New Testament be the New Testament. I'm gonna tell you something in a formal debate You don't have a chance

01:03:03

You don't have a chance Because the person sitting out there listening is gonna be going

01:03:10

Yeah, you know I Seems to be right there. Yeah Wow hmm fascinating wonder why wonder why anybody would be

01:03:20

Um You know confused about that Sorry Distracted by something there by someone who's clearly not listening to the program.

01:03:32

I know Uh, if you want to say if you want to do what I've done

01:03:39

For a long long time go to John 5 because that seems to be the key text and Talk about the absolute

01:03:46

Harmony of the Father and the Son Then do it But I I just wish you all would get out of your ivory halls and do this in some place other than a

01:04:05

PhD colloquium classroom Because you see when I go to John chapter 5

01:04:10

I do it in mosques If you would do it a lot of this silliness would evaporate

01:04:20

It would just evaporate It really would Sorry, it just I just think of the number of times where I have engaged

01:04:35

Muslims in conversations Based on John chapter 5 because they had brought it up They brought up the son saying

01:04:41

I do nothing of myself and I have to go to John chapter 5 and I have to defend the deity of Christ and the unity of the

01:04:51

Father Son and Spirit and the accomplishment of the one decree of God and And now I've got students

01:05:00

Denying inseparable operations, okay

01:05:10

Appropriations and pure actuality well now Nathan Here show me show me

01:05:21

Okay, can can you even start? Can you even start what what do you even mean by it?

01:05:28

We are so far down the road from the Apostles now What's going on here can we not all see this is a really new thing it wasn't really a new thing in the sense that There's always been the scope that the the people fascinated by scholasticism.

01:05:49

They've never cared what we do in apologetics because they don't do apologetics They aren't doing it.

01:05:54

They have no interest in it You know that that's not gonna get them published anywhere so in fact, it's it could be in fact,

01:06:02

I'm proof it's dangerous You're not gonna you're not gonna get

01:06:09

Advancement like you want to get advancement if you're gonna do that type of thing

01:06:16

So anyway, I I asked some some direct questions About that and there was another statement

01:06:28

Um, let me see this that it was it was about Aquinas yeah, here we go

01:06:37

Nathan under also said of course We do not quote need Aquinas end quote, but he is one of the best to articulate some of these biblical doctrines

01:06:47

Really? I've never seen a single biblical doctrine that Thomas Aquinas was the best one to articulate not one and I have challenged you give me one

01:06:58

Give me an example To neglect his work is to forfeit insight into the truth of truths of God that he

01:07:06

Explicates he evidently Thomas from Scripture and I just I'm like Okay, my my my response to that was

01:07:17

Nathan care to point me to any place where Aquinas explicates from Scripture with greater clarity and consistency than say

01:07:23

Calvin or Hodge or Warfield, etc I'd like to see it. I really would I look forward to your many examples.

01:07:31

Let me click on this and Crickets No response.

01:07:36

He's respond to other people sense it So he has at least had the opportunity of seeing it. I'm not gonna say he's seen it because the fact the matter is

01:07:45

Twitter's weird, and I'm hoping Elon Musk might Have a I'm hoping his non woke code writers will come up with something that Might work better than all the woke people that have been employed by Twitter for all this time

01:08:03

So maybe so I can't I don't know if Nathan saw this but so far that was posted many hours ago at 852 a .m

01:08:10

this morning, so 9 Almost over six hours ago and There's been a response and I don't think there's gonna be a response because I don't think there's any examples of it.

01:08:25

I Do believe that Thomas Explicates from Scripture that Thomas articulate that he is the best to articulate some of these biblical doctrines

01:08:42

Where are you gonna end up if he was the best to articulate Simplicity, why wasn't he the best to articulate the mass?

01:08:51

Can you tell me that? How many of you who are running around with Thomas is my homeboy t -shirts

01:08:59

Have read Thomas on the mass How many of you even aware of the fact that it was his philosophy that provided the very philosophical foundation?

01:09:11

for the entire concept of Transubstantiation as understood by the

01:09:17

Roman Catholic Church to the present day if his great philosophical insights

01:09:24

Into the doctrine of God were so important that we have to have them today to even remain

01:09:32

Trinitarian these last ten years have been so bad, I guess but if that's the case then on what consistent basis do you say that his philosophical insights into the concepts of accidents and presence and and substance

01:09:51

That becomes a very foundation for the understanding of transubstantiation in the mass We're in error if you want to test him by the scriptures on that subject

01:10:04

Why can't you do it over here? And why am I wrong to test him over here?

01:10:12

There is no consistency here That's why you all just simply hum as you walk past these objections

01:10:18

That's why you're doing just the ad hominem Cancellation stuff blah blah blah blah biblicist blah blah blah blah blah all the straw men because there are no answers.

01:10:30

That's the issue That's the issue. I was gonna get to Continuing my response, but I guess we'll have to do that.

01:10:39

Hopefully on Thursday in regards to the Baptist dogmatics stuff because at least they're trying and Again, it's important because here's someone trying to go well, we need to we need to do an exegesis where we bring in God's mind and So we need to see well, how does how does that exactly does that work?

01:11:01

I mean if it's if God's mind isn't found by the historical grammatical interpretation of the words of Scripture then

01:11:12

How does this work and we're about to get to that point and I thought we might get there But then again, didn't

01:11:18

I say something as I walked in that said I'll never get through all this stuff Yeah, yeah, so I knew

01:11:25

I knew that that was coming anyways Thank you.

01:11:36

I won't mention who sent this to me, but posted today By one of our

01:11:42

Reformed brethren who is just so always so Completely loving and gracious and kind and can just always bending over backwards to you know

01:11:55

Richard Wakefield Says I am once again asking everyone to just avoid

01:12:01

James White Please his arguments begin with well poisoning and end with question begging

01:12:09

I do not say this to be uncharitable. I think it's germane to his rhetoric folks examine what

01:12:14

I just said and Apply to what Richard Wakefield just wrote and you'll see the impact of tradition upon a man's thinking

01:12:28

Begin with well poisoning. What's that give an example? Oh you point out there

01:12:33

Thomas was a Roman Catholic Okay, if that's a if that's well poisoning

01:12:41

Okay and End with question begging this kind of vague throw it out there. See what sticks kind of stuff

01:12:47

This is what the Thomas are all about That's what the Thomas are all about and what's the end result?

01:12:54

No, we're seeing it. We are seeing it. I Don't follow

01:12:59

Richard Wakefield but there are people out there that are kind enough to send me stuff and That was just sent to me and that's

01:13:07

Why I was able to look at that I had other stuff I wanted to I was gonna briefly play a segment

01:13:18

Our feeds are just filled with so many so much as I might try to save this and maybe come back to it on the

01:13:28

Transgender insanity and what people are doing, but it really wouldn't fit at this point anyways, so we'll wrap things up here and I'll try to keep that one posted for the next program and we'll we'll press on from there, so Thanks for watching the program today and Lord willing.