What Did Jesus Preach - Christianity or Islam?

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Ladies and gentlemen, salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. I greet you all in the name of peace and take pleasure in welcoming one and all of you to this eventful debate that's due to take place tonight.
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It is indeed a great pleasure to see such a full house and people expressing such a keen interest in God.
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It is heart -rendering indeed. Before we get down to the introduction,
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I'm going to say a short prayer which will be the opening of the Quran, Surah Al -Fatihah.
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Surah Al -Fatihah.
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I'd like to start off by introducing the organization that's responsible for setting up this event which is
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IQRA. IQRA stands for Islamic Comparative Religion Academy and was founded by Mr.
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Ayub Karim almost 20 years ago and has been primarily active in the field of comparative religion and dawah, specifically promoting the
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Quran and conducting dialogues and lectures on comparative religion nationally. IQRA also has
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Quran study classes, comparative religion classes, and computer classes, all conducted at their offices in Brickfield Road over port.
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Their initiatives also include social welfare in various segments like feeding schemes, hamper distribution, free bottled water distribution, water wells, water tanks, and boreholes.
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IQRA also prints 30 ,000 copies of the Universal Challenge newspaper every two months which is distributed freely throughout
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South Africa. You are most welcome to visit them at 232 Brickfield Road over port to learn more about them or you can also visit their website at www .iqra
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.co .za. I've kept you waiting for 20 minutes.
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We were scheduled to start at 7 .30. We're actually behind schedule with 20 minutes.
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Nonetheless, I'm not going to take much of your time. Our first speaker would be
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Dr. James White, who I will introduce now. Dr.
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White is the Director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona, and an elder in Apologia Church in Arizona.
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He's the author of more than 20 books, a professor, and an accomplished debater.
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Dr. White has been married for more than 37 years and has two children and four grandchildren.
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We welcome Dr. White. He is all the way from the USA. Welcome, Dr. White. I've introduced
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Dr. White first as he's going to be our first speaker and I'm now going to go on to introduce
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Dr. Ayub Karim. Mr. Ayub Karim, my apologies. In the
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Islamic world, we have millions of learned people and scholars, but just a handful of comparative religion scholars.
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In the world today, if we are able to count them, they would number just a few hundred. And one such individual is most certainly our speaker today,
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Mr. Ayub Karim. Mr. Ayub Karim is the founder and president of Islamic Comparative Religion Academy.
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He has chosen to walk the path of promoting the Quran and its teachings and clearing misconceptions that other faiths and denominations are cemented upon.
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He has lectured extensively in comparative religion and has debated numerous evangelists and Christian scholars, both nationally and internationally, on various subjects in comparative religion.
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Our topic for this evening is what did
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Jesus, peace be upon him, preach? Christianity or Islam?
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Evidences from the Bible and Quran. The format will be as follows.
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The first speaker will be given an introduction, will present an introductory talk for 30 minutes.
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The second speaker, 30 minutes, followed by a 15 -minute rebuttal for each speaker.
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We'll have a tea break for about 15 minutes, after which each speaker gets to question the other, five questions each.
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Then we'll have a question and answer for the audience. We'll hope to take about 10 questions at the most, giving two minutes per question for answer time.
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The second speaker will be given 10 minutes for the closing arguments, and the first speaker will close with also 10 minutes for his closing arguments.
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Without further ado, I now have the pleasure of calling up Dr. James White to present to you.
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Dr. James White, thank you. Well, good evening.
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It is good to be with you here, wherever it is I am. I'm not 100 % certain, I'll be honest with you.
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I flew in from Johannesburg a little while ago, and here we are, and I believe this is the third debate that we've had together, and so I'm very much looking forward to our discussion this evening.
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But time is limited, so let's dive right into our topic. Did Jesus preach
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Christianity or Islam? For many of my friends, that is a rather obvious and clear question that Jesus taught, what he taught in the
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New Testament, specifically in regards to the fact that he was the Son of God who came to give his life upon Calvary's tree, rise again the third day, and offer salvation to all those who would bow the knee in repentance and faith to him, and that upon his resurrection, he said, all authority is given to me in heaven and earth, therefore go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the
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Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. So, all of those things are specifically a part of the
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Christian faith, and since they are a part of the New Testament documents, then that would seem to answer the question, but I'm sure a number of other issues will come up this evening.
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Obviously, from our perspective, given that historically, Islam as a faith arises half a millennium after the time of the
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New Testament, the question seems to us a little bit odd and somewhat anachronistic. Generally, Muslims accept argumentation that attempts to isolate particular portions of Jesus' teachings, such as the interaction with the rich young ruler, draw some kind of parallel or connection to Islamic beliefs, and consider that the task is accomplished thereby.
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But I would like to suggest to you that this is simply insufficient. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam share many common elements, such as monotheism, supernaturalism, the existence of a creator, submission to God's law and to God's will, and general moral concepts, such as justice and good works.
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These similarities are insufficient to answer our question this evening, because if we simply draw those parallels, then
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Jesus was preaching Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, which, of course, we know he was not.
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What needs to be examined are the essential differences between Christianity and Islam.
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What separates us? And then, having established that, the question is, did
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Jesus positively teach certain things on those topics that separate us?
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And what is it that he did, in fact, teach? Isolating just a few texts, such as the story of the rich young ruler from the rest of Jesus' teaching is inappropriate and misleading to actually bring us to an understanding that would be truthful.
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So what are the issues that separate us? Well, I think most of us know what they are. Unitarianism, Tawhid, versus Trinitarianism, the belief that there is one being of God shared by three persons.
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That is a fundamental difference. What did Jesus teach that was relevant to that subject? Not whether Jesus taught monotheism, because Christians and Muslims agree on that, but what did he teach on the issue of Unitarianism versus Trinitarianism?
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Obviously, relevant to that, who is Jesus? Is he a great and mighty prophet, virgin born, but merely a human, merely a
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Rasul, or did he teach he was the son of God? Did he teach he was the son of man, in the eschatological sense found in the book of Daniel, as we will see, who is a divine figure?
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This would be very relevant to our subject this evening. What about the crucifixion and resurrection? Did Jesus prophesy his own crucifixion?
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Did he say that this was going to be central to the plans of God in his life, or did he follow after Sura 4, 157 and not believe that there is any crucifixion at all, and hence no resurrection?
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And what about how you know God? Did Jesus teach that this was through a series of works, or did he teach that he is the only mechanism whereby anyone can ever truly have peace with the
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Father? Did he teach that salvation is the action of God, and that it is by faith that we know
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God? Is that the essence of Jesus' teaching? And only upon examining these differences can we come to a meaningful conclusion in answer to the question, did
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Jesus teach Christianity or Islam? And so I would like to begin with some words that Jesus taught.
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I had the opportunity of visiting the very location just last year where these words were said.
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This is from the Gospel of John. I will draw my references this evening from all four
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Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, so that we have a wide representation as far as the material that we're looking at.
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But starting with John chapter 6, hear Jesus' words. I am the bread of life.
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Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven so that one may eat of it and not die.
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I am the living bread that came down out of heaven. If anyone eats this bread, he will live forever.
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And the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.
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Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, how can this man give us his flesh to eat? So Jesus said to them, truly, truly,
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I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves.
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He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
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For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
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As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me, he also will live because of me.
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This is the bread which came down out of heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. He who eats this bread will live forever.
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These things he said in the synagogue as he taught in Capernaum. Now, these words point us to one very central reality.
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Jesus, in answering the question of the Jews, which specifically said what must we do that we might inherit eternal life, said this is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent.
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Why? Because Jesus is the bread which comes down out of heaven. So the manna in the
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Old Testament that was given to Moses and to the people of Israel was a sign, it was a figure of something greater that God was going to do in the person of Jesus Christ.
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And he gives his flesh not in some strange doctrine that was developed a thousand years later called transubstantiation, where the elements are turned in the body and blood of Jesus.
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That is not what the New Testament is speaking about. What it is speaking about is Jesus' own statement that he is going to give his body upon the cross as the mechanism whereby anyone can have eternal life.
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And the only way to have that eternal life is to look to Jesus and to Jesus alone.
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He had already said that the one who looks to me, believes in me, has eternal life.
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It is an intimate relationship. And I would like to suggest to you that it is only
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Christianity, not Judaism, not Islam, that teaches that it is an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus Christ, being united to him by faith, by God's grace that brings about having eternal life.
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Because I am united to him, his life is given to me, my sins are imputed to him, his righteousness given to me, that's how
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I can have peace with God the Father. And so Jesus is absolutely central to the
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Christian understanding of how we can have peace with God. As the living Father sent me and I live because of the
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Father, so he who eats me, he also will live because of me. That's the only way to have spiritual life in Jesus' own teaching.
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Now, which religion teaches this, Christianity or Islam? It's Christianity.
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Jesus is the central one by whom we have relationship with God the
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Father. And these things he said while teaching in Capernaum, these are words that were spoken in history at a particular point in time.
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We can still locate where they happened. Nothing that Jesus says in the Quran takes place at a point in history.
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Nothing. There is only one time when Jesus speaks in the Quran that we can identify a location and it's from his cradle.
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And that was a story borrowed from the Arabic infancy gospels written in the fifth century. It's a
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Gnostic source that has nothing to do with the real Jesus. So here you have something that happened in history, words that happened in history, and they direct us to the answer to the debate this evening.
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Then from the Gospel of Luke, Luke chapter 8, a ruler questioned him saying,
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Good teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said to him, Why do you call me good?
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No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments. Do not commit adultery. Do not murder. Do not steal.
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Do not bear false witness. Honor your father and mother. And he said, All these things I have kept from my youth.
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And when Jesus heard this, he said to him, One thing you still lack, sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven, and come follow me.
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But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. And Jesus looked at him and said,
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How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God, for it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
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They who heard it said, Then who can be saved? But he said, The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.
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Now, we've all heard this story before, and very often my Muslim friends will say, Well, see, there was
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Jesus's entire teaching about how you're made right before God is doing good works, and that completely misses the point of Jesus's interaction with the rich young ruler.
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What is also missed is people say, Well, see, Jesus says he's not God. He says, Why do you call me good?
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No one is good except God alone. But you're missing the point. The rich young ruler didn't know who he was dealing with, and Jesus calls himself the good shepherd, does he not?
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Jesus says to the Jews, Which one of you convicts me of sin? So the answer to the question,
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Why do you call me good? is calling the young man to understand who it is he's talking to. He's not just a mere prophet.
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He has the right to determine who receives eternal life, as we will see here just in a moment, in the rest of Jesus's teaching.
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But did Jesus simply say to this man, If you'll do these things, you will obtain eternal life?
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No. He understood this man's heart. And this man thought that he was keeping God's law.
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But Jesus realized he was an idolater, not in the sense of shirk.
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Idolatry in the Christian faith is broader than just that one category. He was an idolater because he loved the things that God had given to him.
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He loved those things more than he loved God. He loved those things more than he loved eternal life. And so he went away very sad because the object of his love was his stuff.
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And Jesus puts his finger upon the real issue and says, You need to sell everything you have.
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Give it to the poor. Follow me. Then you'll have treasure in heaven. And notice it says,
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Come follow me. Jesus, just as in John 6, points us to the centrality of himself.
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So the text is abused if you separate it from its context. Only two sentences later.
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I wonder how many who have heard this text used in the past remember what comes only two sentences later after Jesus says these words to the rich young ruler.
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Do you know? Here's what he said. Then he took the twelve aside and said to them, Behold, we are going out to Jerusalem.
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And all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished. For he will be handed over to the
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Gentiles and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon. And after they have scourged him, they will kill him.
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And the third day he will rise again. But the disciples understood none of these things and the meaning of the statement was hidden from them.
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And they did not comprehend the things that were said. So within two sentences.
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So if you're going to go to the story of the rich young ruler, you need to go to the next two sentences which specifically have
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Jesus prophesying his death in Jerusalem by crucifixion and his resurrection. The very things denied by Surah 4, 157.
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So what was Jesus' teaching? Christianity or Islam? Christianity. Very, very clearly in the context of Luke chapter 8.
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And I would simply suggest to all of this evening, hold us to the same standard. I will not,
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I'm not misquoting Surah 4, 157. There is no context to Surah 4, 157. There's not even any commentary in the
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Hadith about what Surah 4, 157 says. But I will seek to be very careful in any citation of the
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Quran to give it in its context. We need to do the same thing with the Bible. So if you go to the rich young ruler, go to the whole story which includes
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Jesus' prophecy of his death, burial, and resurrection in Jerusalem. The very thing denied by the
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Quran. Now, in Mark chapter 14, at Jesus' trial,
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Jesus has kept silent to the accusations that are made against him. But then this happens.
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But he kept silent and did not answer. Again, the high priest was questioning him and saying to him, are you the
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Christ, the son of the blessed one? And Jesus said, I am. And you shall see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.
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Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, what further need do we have of witnesses?
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You have heard the blasphemy. How does it seem to you? And they all condemned him to be deserving of death.
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Now, what's going on here? Well, the Jews understood exactly what Jesus had just claimed for himself.
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When he said, you shall see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven, Jesus took two texts from the
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Tanakh, from the Hebrew scriptures, and he brought them together. The first was
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Psalm 110 .1, which is the most often cited text from the Old Testament in the New Testament.
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And then he also quoted from Daniel chapter 7. So Psalm 110 .1 says, the Lord says to my
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Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet. Now, think with me for a moment about Muhammad's night vision and his visitation to heaven.
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Was Jesus in the very presence of Allah? What level was he on? He wasn't even near the top, was he?
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He was not. And yet Jesus said that he is at the right hand and the
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Father says to him, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.
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This is a messianic text about the exaltation of the Messiah. But then
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Jesus combines that with Daniel chapter 7. And here's what
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Daniel chapter 7 verses 13 through 14 say, I kept looking the night visions and behold with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man, this is where Jesus draws that phraseology, one like a son of man was coming and he came up to the ancient of days and was presented before him and to him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom that all the peoples, nations, and men of every language might do what?
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Serve him. Which religion teaches that all of humanity serves, and that term serve in the
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Greek Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament, is the term latruo, which is the highest form of worship in the temple.
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So that all people and every language might serve him.
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That's the message of Christianity. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.
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That's what Jesus said about himself. And that is why the high priest tears his clothes and he says, you've heard the blasphemy.
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He is worthy of death. So, our debate this evening, what did
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Jesus preach? Christianity or Islam? How do you put these words into an
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Islamic understanding of who Jesus is? It's not possible. It is not possible.
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And the author of the Quran gives no evidence that he ever was even aware of Jesus' saying these words.
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Doesn't refute it, doesn't know anything about it. But you do now. And that means we're all accountable for all the truth that is presented to us.
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In John 20, verse 28, after the resurrection of Jesus, when
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Jesus first appeared to the disciples, Thomas was not present with them. And then, after eight days, his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them.
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Then Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, peace be with you. Then he said to Thomas, reach here with your finger and see my hands and reach here your hand and put it into my side and do not be unbelieving but believing.
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Thomas answered and said to him, my Lord and my
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God. Both phrases, Lord and God, by every rule of Greek grammar are being applied to Jesus.
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Anyone who tries to separate them does not understand the Greek language. It is a complete violation of the language.
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Thomas said to Jesus, which is the very term used of Yahweh in the
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Old Testament, and my God, my God. Now, how did
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Jesus, how would the Islamic Jesus have to respond to that statement? If he is but a mirazul, the response would be what?
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Do not say that. Just like the angel, when John bowed down to the angel in the book of Revelation, the angel says, do not do that.
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Worship only God. That is what Jesus would have to have done. But what does Jesus do?
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Jesus said to him, because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see and yet believed.
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Jesus commends the faith of Thomas. He does not reject it. He does not repudiate it.
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He calls it faith. You have believed. Jesus accepts the identification of himself as Thomas' Lord and God.
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Which faith teaches that? Christianity or Islam? Christianity does.
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It is very, very clear. Let's go to the Gospel of Matthew. We've looked at Luke and Mark and John.
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Let's go to Matthew. But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated, this is after the resurrection.
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When they saw him, they worshiped him, but some were doubtful. I am so glad that the New Testament is extremely honest in recording those words.
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The resurrection was so amazing that there were some who doubted. They needed further evidence.
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They needed to hear from Jesus. And what does Jesus say? Jesus came up and spoke to them saying, all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.
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Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the
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Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.
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Which religion teaches that all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus?
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All authority over every king, over every government. Jesus Christ is
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King of kings and Lord of lords. The book of Revelation says that he rules the kings of the earth with a rod of iron.
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All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth, and because of that, go therefore and make disciples not just of the
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Jews. Jesus is not just the Messiah of the Jews. He is the King of heaven and earth, and he sends his disciples out to make more disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name singular of the
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Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. What religion teaches that the one name of God is equally shared by Father, by Son, and by the
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Holy Spirit? There is only one, biblical Christianity. This is the teaching of Jesus. This is the teaching of Jesus.
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In the same gospel, Matthew chapter 11, this one is rarely brought up in Muslim and Christian debates, so I hope you'll listen carefully.
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At that time, Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
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Yes, Father, for this way was well -pleasing in your sight. All things have been handed over to me by my
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Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, nor does anyone know the
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Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal him. I want you to hear those words, because I think this is the most important thing that we'll talk about this evening.
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Do you hear what Jesus says? You want to know what Jesus taught? All things have been handed over to me by my
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Father, just as he says in Matthew 28, all authority. But then listen to this, and no one knows the
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Son except the Father. Really? The Son is so exalted, so powerful, so great that the only one who truly knows him is the
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Father? But not only that, nor does anyone know the
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Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the
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Son wills to reveal him. Ever heard that before?
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Jesus teaches that if you want to know the Father, Jesus is the one who has to reveal him to you.
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Now think about what that means about Jesus. If Jesus is merely a razul, if Jesus is merely a creation, he cannot exhaustively and perfectly reveal the
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Father. But not only that, he's claiming the authority to be the only one who can reveal the
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Father to anyone. If anyone is to know the
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Father, it is at the will of the Son. The Son is sovereign in the matter of grace.
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Now think what that means, my friends. You either have to simply say, no, Jesus never said those words, and then be consistent.
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Be consistent. Or recognize that if Jesus said these words, you cannot view him as a mere prophet amongst many other prophets.
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Because he doesn't say the only way that a Jewish person can know the Father is if I will to reveal the
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Father to him. No. He says, nor does anyone know the
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Father, anyone, except the Son. So he claims to be the perfect knower of God the
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Father, and he then becomes the perfect revealer of God the
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Father to whom? Anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal him.
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This is absolute exclusivity. There is no way around Jesus to gain true knowledge of who the
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Father is. There's no other way. That's offensive to many people. But if Jesus was who he claimed to be, that shouldn't be offensive to anyone.
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If God has chosen in the person of his Son to enter into human flesh, we don't have the right to come along and say, we'd rather have you do it a different way.
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If he has condescended to show such love for us, we have no right to demand some other means.
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If you want to know the Father, I say to you this evening, there is one way, the risen Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
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There is no other way. That's what he said. That's what he taught. You have to deal with it. Which religion teaches that?
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Christianity does. Is the debate decided? I think it is by the evidence. But I don't want to stop there, because I have really, really great news for you.
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The great news I have for you is the fact that Jesus continued on after saying those words, and he said, after he says, no one can know the
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Father except through me, he then said, come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
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Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
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So right after he says, there is no other way, he then says, come.
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But what does he say? Come to me. The graciousness, the love, the condescension of God in the person of Jesus Christ, this exalted creator of all things,
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Colossians chapter 1 says, says come to me. Come to me. But it says, all who are weary and heavy laden.
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He doesn't say, come to me, all who are arrogant. Come to me, all who think that you can give something to God when he needs nothing that you have.
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He says, come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
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Jesus says he will be the source of the rest and peace of the one who believes in Almighty God.
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He's the source of that. He says, take my yoke upon you, learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
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The Christian message is only for people whose souls are weary. The Christian message is only for people who are experiencing the conviction of the
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Spirit of God and a desire to have peace with God. And there's that phrase, you will find rest for your souls.
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Did you know it's a quotation from the Old Testament? It's a quotation from Jeremiah 616.
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Let me read it for you. Thus says Yahweh, stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths where the good way is and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.
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I'm not asking you to do something new. From Moses onward, they all prophesied of the one who was going to come.
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These are the ancient paths. These are the ancient ways. This is what is consistent with the fulfillment of the prophecies that are found in Moses and all the prophets is to come to Jesus.
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But the sad thing is in Jeremiah 616, the last part of the verse says, but they said we will not walk in it.
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My friends, will you be like those rebellious Jews who did not hear, who would not accept the invitation to walk in the ancient paths and find rest for their souls?
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Jesus said the only way to have that rest, the only way to have that peace was to come to Him. So I ask you a simple question.
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In every verse that I've presented this evening in its context, which of the two faiths teaches what
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Jesus taught? And there's only one answer to that question. It's Christianity. It's Christianity.
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That is our debate this evening. Thank you for listening carefully. God bless. Thank you very much for that compelling account of your perspective,
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Dr. White. It certainly did have the audience riveted, I must say.
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Thank you. Our next speaker that I'd like to call upon is
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Mr. Ayub Karim to give his account and position as to why Jesus taught
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Islam and not Christianity. Mr. Ayub Karim. Thank you. Respected elders, respected audience,
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I greet you with the traditional greeting of all the prophets, and a good cue for that will be found in the gospel according to St.
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John chapter 20, where Jesus Christ greets his disciples, shalom aleichem.
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In Arabic, I greet all of you with the same greeting, assalamu alaikum, translated, peace be with you.
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So let us begin with, did Jesus Christ preach Islam or Christianity? His first way, the man in which he greeted people was in Islamic way, salam aleichem.
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We have started the debate, Dr. James White. All right. Now, whatever
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Dr. James White has mentioned, and this is not my rebuttal, but I had prepared my lecture thinking that I would go first as I normally do, but he's my guest and I told him to choose and he chose first.
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And whatever I'm going to say now, you will find, even if I'm quoting from the
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Bible, is going to contradict all that Dr. James White has said.
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And remember that this is not my rebuttal, but you will find that it is going to contradict it. And my interpretation is not void of logic.
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It's not void of good sound reasoning, and neither it is void of common sense. This I assure you.
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So in the contradictions or those contradictions, now you will find that contradictions will arise in the
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Bible, but it is not for me to sort out those contradictions within the covers of the
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Bible. That is something that Dr. James White has to deal with. But the contradictions, there will be.
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So let me begin. What did Jesus Christ preach? And I will also say it is obvious.
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The Muslims know that Jesus Christ preached Islam. And we get our cue from the Quran in Surah Al -Imran,
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Chapter 3, Verse 52. When Jesus found unbelief on the path, on those people, he said,
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Said the disciples. Whose disciples? The disciples of Jesus Christ. We will be
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God's helpers. We believe in God.
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Then write us down, obey witness that we are Muslims.
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This is what the Quran says, that this is what transpired between Jesus Christ, his people when they rejected his message, and what his disciples had to say.
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So the cue in the Quran is that the disciples of Jesus Christ claim to be Muslims, then one can conclude that what
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Jesus Christ preached was not Christianity, but Islam. Now let me tell you what
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Islam is. And I was disappointed to a certain degree with Dr.
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White in that he didn't define Christianity. But I will afford you that.
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So what is Islam? Islam, basically the root word means peace. But it means within the context, like in the
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Quran, it says in Surah Al -Imran, Verse 19, The religion before God, a point of note.
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The word religion does not have an Arabic equivalent.
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So any Muslim here and any Christian here that believes that Islam is a religion, I'm asking you to please, please blot it out.
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Islam is not a religion. The religion before God.
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So Alama Yusuf Ali and all the translators of the Quran, they use the word religion for convenience.
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Deenul Islam is a way of life. And what is that way of life? To submit your will to the command or will of God Almighty.
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That is the definition of Islam. So if you were to come to me and ask me, what religion do you belong to?
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Now I'm going to tell you I belong to a way of life whereby I must submit my will to the will of God.
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One word long, one meter long. How much I do that? So every time you come, I say one word, Islam, Islam, Islam, Islam.
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What is a Muslim? A Muslim is a person who lives his way of life by submitting his will to the command of God Almighty.
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Another word so long, reduce it to one word, Muslim. It makes it easier for conversation.
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So for the purpose of translation, religion of Islam. Yes, by all means, Christianity is a religion.
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Judaism is a religion. They can maintain that title. I don't have a problem. But Islam is not a religion.
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Now the Quran tells us that the disciples of Jesus Christ were
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Muslims. Then obviously Jesus Christ preached Islam. And then the definition of Christianity.
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And I checked the Webster dictionary for his definition. And this is all it gives me.
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Definition of Christianity, the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the
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Bible as sacred scripture and professed by Christian, Roman Catholic and Protestant bodies.
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That's about all it gives me. The word Christianity is not mentioned in the
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Bible. In any or all versions of the
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Bible, you will never, never find the word Christianity. And yet it beguiles me how
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Christians can say that Jesus Christ preached Christianity. There is no religious attachment with Jesus Christ or with God or with any scripture that Jesus Christ gave you a religion named
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Christianity. So how did they get Christianity? They got
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Christianity from Christ. Those that followed
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Christ, they believed were Christians. And out of that, you got Christianity. So the religion that you have as Christianity is derived, not given by God, but derived by men.
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So the label that you're wearing is not God given. It's manmade. Islam, however, is given to us 39 times in the
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Quran. Not once or twice, but 39 times. Islam, Islam, Dinul Islam, Allah is telling us this.
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With regard to Muslims, we are mentioned no less than 19 times. That you are labeled, that the title you are given, that the name that you are given is
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Muslims in the scripture, the Quran and in previous scriptures. That is what the
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Quran tells us. So how do we define Christian? Again, I went back to the Webster dictionary.
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The definition they give us is relating to or professing Christianity or its teaching.
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A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Christianity.
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You know, when I looked at this difference, I mean, these definitions and I weighed it to the definitions of Islam and Muslim in the
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Quran, and I would say, there is no substance to the definition of the word
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Christian and there is no substance to the definition of the word Christianity. Just because they say,
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OK, you are following. There is no substance to it. But if you look at Muslim, Muslim has got a meaning.
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You look at the word Islam, Islam has got a meaning. And what about Christian? The word
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Christian appears three times in the New Testament and never was it used any time once, not even once by Jesus Christ himself.
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It is found in the book of Acts chapter 11, verse 26. It is found again in chapter 26 of the same book, verse 28.
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And it is found again in 1 Peter chapter 4, verse 16. Other than that, the word Christian does not appear.
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Now, let us look at the context in which the word Christian appear. According to the book of Acts chapter 11, verse 26, the disciples were called
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Christians first at Antioch. The scripture makes it clear.
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You believe in the scripture for those Christians that are seated here. So it says that they were first called
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Christians at Antioch, not by Jesus Christ. In his lifetime, he never called them
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Christians. So my question to Dr. James White, what did Jesus Christ call his disciples?
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Because we can see quite clearly he had no name for them. There must have been a name. What did he call them?
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Because they were called Christians in Antioch, long after the supposed death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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Dr. James White, I'm using the word supposed advisedly. Now, in 1
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Peter chapter 4, verse 16, there is something very intriguing about what
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Peter has to write about this word Christians. Listen to me very, very carefully.
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Do not say after this that I misled you. And you can go home and check it out as well. 1
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Peter chapter 4, verse 16. However, if you suffer as a
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Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.
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Do you understand the context of that? Do you understand the implication of that? He's telling the people do not be ashamed.
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Why? They were being ashamed of that name. They were ashamed of that name. Why? Because that title was put upon those people of a very, very derogative nature.
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They said these are Christians. It was insulting them. And if I reduce that context within the South African context, when we were ruled by the apartheid regime in South Africa, they wanted to enforce racism.
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So they created a system by separating us. Group areas act. They put the Indians in one place.
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They put the blacks in another place. They create another place for whites. But they didn't stop there. Now, within the context of that, if I read this, however, if you suffer as a coolie, and why
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I'm saying coolie, because they called me, an Indian, a coolie. However, if you suffer as a coolie, do not be ashamed, but praise
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God that you bear that name. And the black man, tell him, if you suffer as a kaffir, do not be ashamed, but praise
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God that you bear that name. And they tried to push that agenda. It failed.
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Today, we have a government that has banned it. You cannot call me a coolie. You cannot call the black man a kaffir.
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I give credit to our government. That is what they have done. But the Christians have bought it wholesale.
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I am a Christian. A title that was derogatory that were put upon them. They wear it with pride.
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I say, you know, we coolies and we kaffirs have more dignity than you, because we fought for our rights.
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Why should we wear a label that was insulting us? So, a label that is derogatory, a label that insults you, can never be from God Almighty, and it can never be from any of the prophets of God Almighty.
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And most certainly, it cannot be from Jesus Christ. That is why he never used it. What did
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Jesus Christ preach? I'm going to run through this very, very quickly. I have about 15 minutes left. 16, thank you.
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Now, what did Jesus Christ preach? Christianity or Islam? Evidence from the Bible. And I'm going to go back to what
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Dr. James White has mentioned. And actually, I was going to speak on this as well, and I'm not going to deviate. Matthew, chapter 9, from verse 16 to 21.
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Oh, incidentally, Dr. White, you know, you have to go back. When you go back to the
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United States, inform Donald Trump. He's got no chances. I mean, with his latest shenanigans, you know, he wants to buy up Greenland.
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I mean, that guy's got super rich. He's super, super rich. What chances has he got to get into heaven?
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And while he's doing that, Rudolph and I, we will go and talk to our Honorable Cyril Ramaphosa. And behold, one came and said unto him,
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Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good?
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There is none good but one, that is God. But if thou will enter to life, keep the commandments. Now, this is where I disagree with Dr.
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James White. Let us look at the context. The first thing, Jesus Christ, he answers the rich young man with a question.
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Why callest thou me good? I mean, seriously, he is the
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Messiah. Why will he answer by questioning the person and say, but why callest thou me good?
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Is Jesus Christ not good? No, no. This is the first lesson that in every madrasa, in every
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Islamic school, we teach is what is called humility. That you never claim goodness for yourself.
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You know, when I finish my debates, whether it is Dr. James White or anybody else, people come and greet me.
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Ayub, you did a wonderful job. You're such a great person. And I say, subhanAllah. Glory be to Allah.
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Nothing, no credit to me. Alhamdulillah. All praise is due to Allah. No credit to me.
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I of my own self can do nothing. You know who said that. And I'm saying the same thing, which is an
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Islamic teaching. And Jesus Christ, he used the same thing. I of my own self can do nothing. Because of course, he can do nothing without the power of God.
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And I can do nothing without the power of God. So, he answers with a corrective measure.
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Don't call me good. Don't refer to me as good. I'm not good. However, he says, there is none good but one.
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Now, why does he say there is none good but one? And that one, who is that one?
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That is God. Now, although Christians say that they believe in monotheism,
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I tend to disagree with them. Because when you say the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, or the Father, the
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Son, and the Holy Spirit, what comes into your mind? 103. And I ask you to be sincere and honest to yourselves.
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What do you get into your head? The Father, the Son, the Father, and the
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Son, and the Holy Spirit. And, and, and, how can you have one?
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Of course, you got a different mental picture. And then that is idolatry. It's taking you away from monotheism.
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It's taking you away from what Jesus Christ preached. But maybe at my 15 minutes, I will go more into that.
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So, he teaches humility in a corrective measure.
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Then he teaches Tawhid, one. Now, look at Moses. He's given you the command, and it is called the
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Shema. And in the Hebrew language, Hear, O Israel, the
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Lord our God is one Lord. Jesus Christ, 2 ,000 years later,
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Mark chapter 12, verse 29. A scribe comes up to him and says, Master, what is the greatest commandment of all?
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Also, verbatim. Shema Israelu adonai ilahainu adonai ikad.
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Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. And a deputation of Christians from Najran, we're with our
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Prophet, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, in Masjid -e -Nabawi, and they were having a discourse, a dialogue, a debate.
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And they asked him, what is your concept of God? Muhammad, peace be upon him, said the same thing in different words.
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Say that God is one and only.
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Same thing. Our God is one. Jesus Christ, our God is one. Muhammad, our
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God is one. Same thing. That is what Jesus Christ said.
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That no one is good except one, and that is God. Noble Prophet Muhammad taught the same thing.
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So now you can see. Moses taught Islam. Jesus taught Islam. Muhammad, peace be upon him, taught
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Islam. But if thou will enter into life, keep the commandments. Now why would
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Jesus Christ ask this person to keep the commandments when according to Christians, he came to die for the sins?
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It would have been much more easier. It would have been the ideal expediency for Jesus Christ to tell this rich young man, and I'm not losing the context of this because I'm going to follow through.
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So, why don't you just wait? I am going to get arrested in the
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Garden of Gethsemane. I am going to go for a fake trial in front of the Sanhedrin. Then I'm going to appear before Pilate, and Pilate is going to find me innocent.
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But still, they are going to lash me, beat me up, take me up to Golgotha, and crucify me.
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And I will be buried, and after three days I will be raised, and you will have salvation. End of story.
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It's a done deal. But no, he doesn't say that. He doesn't.
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And I've asked this to many Christians, and all that they can tell me is that time was not yet right.
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That is what they say. So, what is the right time? Who would know better whether the time is right or wrong?
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Me, you, or Jesus Christ? He was there. He knew what was happening. He knew when the time was right.
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You and I have no authority to say that the time was not right. And this is what the
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Quran says. Jesus Christ said, according to the
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Quran, and this is where I get the cue, that I have come to attest the law of Moses.
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I have come to attest the law of Moses. I have come to confirm the law of Moses. I have come to revive the law of Moses.
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Why? His people were deviating from the law. Not deviating from the law as such.
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What they were doing is that they were now practicing the letter of the law, and they were forgetting the spiritual aspects of the law.
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I will tell you more about that. So, what Jesus Christ says? He says, according to Matthew 5, verse 17,
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Think not that I have come to destroy the law of the prophets.
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I have not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, not one jot, one tittle, shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
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And some Christians tell me, yes, the law is fulfilled. I ask, how? They say, it's nailed to the cross.
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Whatever that means. But I said, listen to the verse that follows. That can't be true.
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Whosoever, whosoever, therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men to do so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
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And who is teaching the people to break those commandments? Are the Muslims doing that? Seriously, go and ask, are you
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Muslim? Are you telling the people to break the commandments of Jesus Christ? Which Muslim is doing that?
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And he says, accept your righteousness, exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, you shall by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
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So what the scribes and pharisees were doing, is that they were giving a very physical attribute to keeping these laws.
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They have forgotten the spiritual aspect about it. And Jesus Christ goes further, and he said, this is the spirituality.
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You have heard that it was said of the time of old, thou shall not kill, but whosoever shall kill is in danger of judgment.
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But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, without a cause, shall be in danger of judgment.
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And whoever shall say to his brother, Raka, shall be in danger of the council. But whoever shall say, thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
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Well, naturally, he's reviving the spirit of the law. The title he has in Islam is
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Ruhullah, the spirit of Allah. And this is what he is doing. So the Jews thought they can work around the law, but he's telling them, no, you can't do that.
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You swear to live by the law, you have to live by the law. And this is
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Islam. So he said, which? So he says, which?
01:00:09
Thou shall do no murder, not commit adultery, not steal. You know all these laws. The young man said unto him, all these things have
01:00:17
I kept from my youth, what lack I? And Jesus Christ could see that this sickness, this disease of claiming self -righteousness, and I've seen it in all religions.
01:00:29
Seriously, my dear friends, I've seen it among Christians. I've seen it among Jews. And I even see it amongst my own people, the
01:00:36
Muslims. You know, these people we call in all religions, the holier than thou. We have it in Islam.
01:00:43
I have it amongst Muslims. I meet people like this. They believe that they are better than others.
01:00:48
And the Quran says, the Quran warns us about this. In Surah 53, verse 32, it says, فَلَا تُزَكُوا أَنفُسَكُمْ
01:00:58
Therefore, justify not yourself. Therefore, don't say that you are pious.
01:01:05
Don't give purity to yourself. This is what the Quran says, that don't attribute piety to yourself.
01:01:12
Only Allah knows who is best at guarding against evil, not you and I.
01:01:20
Remember, do not claim piety. And Jesus Christ could see this hypocrisy, self -righteousness.
01:01:30
Now, why Allah wants us not to do this? And why Jesus Christ doesn't want this rich young man to do so is because we must not think we're better than the next person, just because they sin differently from us.
01:01:45
We all sin. Anyone here without sin, please raise your hands. So, let's not judge others just because we sin differently from them and they sin differently from us.
01:01:57
And this is what Jesus Christ could see. Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell thou, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven.
01:02:08
Jesus Christ said, sell it and follow me. Dr. James White, I want to remind you, follow me.
01:02:17
He said, come and follow me. And I'm saying it to you, follow me. Because I want you to remember this. He said, come and follow me.
01:02:23
He never said, come and worship me. What Thomas did was not by the order of Jesus Christ.
01:02:32
Jesus Christ said, follow me. Now, this concept of perfect.
01:02:38
In order to understand this concept of perfect, the disciple is not above his master, but everyone that is perfect shall be as his master.
01:02:52
Muslim, Muslim. In the Hebrew, go check the Hebrew text. I've taken this from the Aramaic Bible Society.
01:02:58
I'll give you the link. Muslim, Muslim. In Islam, Muslim.
01:03:05
Aramaic, Muslim. Jesus Christ said his disciples were Muslim, which is Muslim. No way he said
01:03:11
Christians. But there are more than 10 cases in the New Testament where he used the word Muslim, Muslim, Muslim, Muslim.
01:03:16
Which means Muslim, Muslim, Muslim. I think that rests my case. What did
01:03:22
Jesus Christ preach? Islam or Christianity. Now, this further proves my case that the word
01:03:30
Muslim is used there. Okay. Now, I'm not going to go through with all that, but this is what basically constitutes submission to God's will.
01:03:43
Now, declaration of faith found in John 17 3.
01:03:48
This is life eternal that they may know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
01:03:55
Muhammad is a messenger of Allah. One who is sent is a messenger.
01:04:02
And this is life eternal that they may know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
01:04:08
The one that is sent is a messenger. Any Muslim object to that?
01:04:17
No. We believe Jesus Christ was a messenger. He was sent by God. But here's the declaration and confession by Jesus Christ.
01:04:25
Confession. Jesus said unto her, talking to Mary Magdalene, after his supposed death and resurrection,
01:04:32
Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended unto my father. But go and tell my brethren and say unto them,
01:04:40
I ascend unto my father, unto my father, his father and your father.
01:04:46
Whose father? Mary Magdalene's father. And the next seven words confounds whatever
01:04:52
Dr. James Wright has said. It does away with the resurrection. It does away with the crucifixion. It does away with the trinity.
01:04:59
The seven words that follows. And to my God and to your God. Whose God?
01:05:06
Jesus Christ is saying and to my God and your God. Jesus Christ has got a
01:05:11
God. Revelation, my friends. So if Jesus Christ has got a God, he is not
01:05:17
God. He's not part of the trinity. Where do you get trinity from?
01:05:24
Not found in the Bible. Where do you get Christianity from? Not found in the Bible. My dear friends,
01:05:30
I appeal to my Christian friends. Please analyze your scriptures. Look into your scriptures.
01:05:36
Study them with logic, sound reasoning, and most of all, apply common sense. I should have actually kept that title,
01:05:56
Dr. Ayub Karim. Another riveting and compelling account.
01:06:02
Thank you, Mr. Ayub Karim. We will now have a 15 -minute rebuttal from Dr.
01:06:09
James Wright. Call upon Dr. James Wright, please. Let's start at the beginning and work our way through the comments that were just made.
01:06:18
I very much appreciate the presentation. First, we had some quotations from Jesus from the
01:06:24
Quran. The problem with that is there is absolutely not a shred of historical evidence between the days of Jesus and 632
01:06:31
A .D. that Jesus said any of the words that are found in the Quran. Every bit of the New Testament comes from the first century.
01:06:39
There is documentary evidence of this. There is no documentary evidence whatsoever for anything that is attributed to Jesus in the
01:06:46
Quran. If there's going to be any questions about what's written in the Gospels, then there must be six times the amount of question about anything that's found in the
01:06:55
Quran in regards to the words of Jesus. Let's keep that in mind when we look at that kind of material.
01:07:01
We were told that Christianity is not mentioned in the Bible. That, of course, is irrelevant. The differences that I noted, we all agree with.
01:07:08
In fact, some of the differences that I noted, we've already debated. If that wasn't the difference between Christianity and Islam, what were we debating before?
01:07:15
We all know that the differences between Christianity are, who is Jesus Christ, the doctrine of the
01:07:21
Trinity, the nature of monotheism, was Jesus the son of God, did he die upon the cross, did he rise from the dead, and how does a person have knowledge of who
01:07:29
God is? That is, how is a person saved? We all know those are the differences. I'm not going to spend much time arguing about what terminology is used.
01:07:37
We know what the differences between Christianity and Islam are, and you know that the passages I presented taught from Jesus' own teaching what
01:07:46
Christians believe, not what Muslims believe. So let's keep that very, very clear. In the early church, there was much discussion about why would you take a word that was meant to be an insult?
01:07:57
Yes, the world uses the term Christianity as an insult in that early period of time because they despised
01:08:04
Jesus because he died upon a cross. And yet the Christians said, we glory in the cross of Jesus Christ because that was what was prophesied from Moses all the way through the prophets themselves.
01:08:17
This is the very substance of the teaching of the early church as you'll find in the book of Acts if you will look at that.
01:08:23
In John chapter 5, Jesus does say, I do nothing except that which I see the Father doing. If you'll read
01:08:29
John chapter 5 thoroughly, you will see that it also says, you are to honor the Son even as you honor the
01:08:34
Father. Does Islam teach that? Islam even denies that Jesus is the Son, let alone that you're to honor him in the same way you honor the
01:08:42
Father. Does Islam teach what is taught in John chapter 5 verse 18, where Jesus had just said in John 5, 17, my
01:08:52
Father's working until now and I am working. He's claiming the exact same authority as the
01:08:57
Father himself to work on the Sabbath to maintain the creation itself. And the
01:09:02
Jews say they seek to kill him not only because he's loosing the Sabbath, but because why? He's calling
01:09:08
God his own Father, making himself equal to God. Which of the two sides this evening say that Jesus called
01:09:14
God his own Father, making himself equal to God? That's the Christian side and that's what's found in John chapter 5 as well.
01:09:21
We had it said, well, I can't understand if you say Father, Son, Holy Spirit, how can one be three? We've explained this over and over.
01:09:28
We did it in the last debate repeatedly. One being three persons, they are not the same thing. We're not saying one is three or three is one.
01:09:36
There's one being of God. This is illustrated by the fact that the name Yahweh is used of the
01:09:41
Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. In fact, when Ayub quoted the
01:09:46
Shema, he did not quote it correctly. He used the Jewish later traditional form. It says
01:09:51
Shema Yisrael Yahweh Eloheinu, Yahweh echad. And that word
01:09:57
Yahweh is used of the inspired New Testament writers and of Jesus himself, of Jesus, as well as of the
01:10:05
Father and the Spirit. That is the facts of Revelation. You have to deal with the facts of Revelation.
01:10:10
You can't just simply ignore them. One side takes everything the New Testament says and comes up with a coherent teaching of it.
01:10:18
The other side says, no, we're only gonna take this much and cut all the rest of that off. Which one is dealing with the scriptures in a proper way in that particular fashion?
01:10:28
And so keep that in mind as to what's actually found in the Shema. Then we were told, well,
01:10:34
Jesus said keep the commandments. But the whole point of the encounter between Jesus and the rich young ruler is the rich young ruler thought he was keeping the commandments.
01:10:47
Because what did Jesus do? Jesus only quoted from what's called the second table of the law, from commandments four to the end.
01:10:57
He didn't quote from the first three. What's the first three? What's the first three about? No idolatry.
01:11:04
You shall worship the Lord your God and serve him only. He quoted from the rest of it.
01:11:11
And the young man says, I've kept all those from my youth up. And Jesus proved to him, no, you haven't.
01:11:19
Because you see, when I say sell your possessions and come follow me, you walk away and you're sad.
01:11:27
Why? Because you're an idolater. You love your stuff more than you love God. You're worshiping your stuff more than you're worshiping
01:11:35
God. That's what's going on here. And yes, when Jesus says no one is good but God alone, and he calls himself the good shepherd, yes,
01:11:43
Jesus is trying to get this young man to see who it is he's dealing with and that he has the right to reveal his own heart to him.
01:11:50
And one thing that was not mentioned even once in regards to that text is something
01:11:55
I pointed out to you. Two sentences later, what does Jesus say?
01:12:01
I'm going to Jerusalem. I'm going to be betrayed. I'm going to be crucified. I'm going to rise again the third day.
01:12:07
Two sentences after what Jesus says here. Isn't that telling you what
01:12:13
Jesus is actually teaching in this text? You can't just cut the rest of it off and say I'm dealing with it honestly.
01:12:19
No, that's not how you handle any text of Scripture whatsoever. It was said,
01:12:26
Jesus, perfect quotation from Matthew chapter five, I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.
01:12:34
Well, how did Jesus do that? How does Jesus fulfill the law? Well, first of all, according to the
01:12:40
New Testament, he's the one who gave it. He is the one who gave it.
01:12:46
He is your creator. He is Yahweh in human flesh. And how does he fulfill it?
01:12:52
He submitted himself to the will of the Father, and he became obedient to the point of death, even death on the cross,
01:13:00
Philippians chapter two. He fulfills the law of God by living a perfect life so that when he voluntarily, no one takes it.
01:13:10
He says, no one takes my life from me. I give it of my own accord. When he voluntarily gives his life, then the perfect punishment of that law falls on him in the place of every person who will repent and believe in him.
01:13:27
Hence, God's law is fulfilled. It is not simply put aside. No one will ever stand before God with God's law having been trampled and destroyed.
01:13:37
It has been fulfilled because Jesus, as the perfect man, gave his life in fulfillment of the demands of that law.
01:13:45
See, that's the difference between us, my friends. I don't have time to develop it tonight, but go watch the debate I did with Shabir Ali in the
01:13:51
Abu Bakr Asidic Mosque in 2013 in Erasmus, here in South Africa. I laid it out very, very clearly that what we have right there is the fundamental difference between us on the issue of salvation.
01:14:03
You know the Hadith story about the man who killed 99 people. Then he killed the priest. He asked the scholar. Scholar says, go to such and such a city.
01:14:10
As he's going, he dies, and the angels come, and they argue over his body. If he's one cubit closer to the city he's going to, then he goes to paradise, and he's found to be one cubit closer, and so he goes to paradise.
01:14:20
You know the Hadith story. Everybody knows that one, right? Well, think about it for a second. God's law was not fulfilled in that mass murderer.
01:14:29
He killed 100 people, and the law was trampled underfoot, and he goes to heaven. That never happens in Christianity because we have a substitute.
01:14:37
We have the one who took upon himself the sins of his people, so God's law is fulfilled.
01:14:44
That's what Matthew 5 is all about, and Jesus taught it, so I appreciate you bringing it forward because who teaches that,
01:14:51
Christianity or Islam? Christianity does, so once again, the thesis of the debate is fulfilled.
01:15:00
It was said that Jesus said, come follow me, not worship me. Well, that's an interesting statement, but Jesus, remember, in Matthew chapter 28,
01:15:10
I pointed out that when Jesus appeared to the disciples after his resurrection, some worshiped and some doubted, and how did
01:15:19
Jesus respond to what they were doing? His response to them was, all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.
01:15:30
Who teaches that? Who teaches that? Christians teach that, and when
01:15:36
Thomas refers to him as his Lord and his God, does Jesus rebuke him or does he accept that?
01:15:43
If you call someone Lord and God, are you worshiping them? Of course you are. You're acknowledging their worth. In the early church, 1
01:15:48
Corinthians chapter one, Christians are identified as those who epikaleo is the Greek term, who call upon the name of the
01:15:55
Lord. The Lord there, the kurios there is Jesus. The early church was identified as those people who prayed to Jesus.
01:16:03
You can't pray to somebody without worshiping them, and Jesus himself said we're to do that in John chapter 14, verse 14.
01:16:08
If you ask me anything by name, I will do it. That's worship, and in the book of Revelation, chapters four and five, we see worship in heaven, and when the lamb standing as if slain appears, all created things bow in worship of the lamb and he who sits upon the throne.
01:16:32
Worship given to Jesus. It's right there. Now, in the last debate that we did, we had an extensive discussion of John chapter 17, which was brought up in your hearing once again, and this is eternal life,
01:16:49
Jesus said, that they know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
01:16:55
Let me just ask you a question. Which religion teaches that to have eternal life, you must have intimate knowledge of God the
01:17:03
Father and the one who was sent by him, Jesus Christ? Intimate knowledge.
01:17:11
It's very clear, but one sentence later, Jesus says, and now
01:17:17
Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
01:17:29
What Mirazul says that? What Mirazul says to God the
01:17:35
Father, glorify me with the glory that I had in your presence before creation even began.
01:17:42
He's claiming to be eternal and to be eternally glorious. That's one sentence after John 17, 3.
01:17:48
Now, let me ask you a simple question. If I for years quoted one verse from the
01:17:54
Quran and ignored what came one sentence after that verse, it completely changes the meaning. What would you think of me as being a person making meaningful arguments against the
01:18:02
Quran and against the Islamic faith? You would have every right to reject me. You'd have every right to reject me.
01:18:10
You have to look at the context. And I would invite anyone in this room that thinks that John 17, 3 is a valid argument.
01:18:17
Have you done one simple thing? I've read the Quran many times. I've read the Quran many times in many different translations.
01:18:25
I learned enough Arabic to work through some of the toughest passages, like in Surah 5 and Surah 4. Have you ever read
01:18:32
John 17? Do you know what comes after John 17, 3? The Islamic Jesus of the
01:18:40
Quran could never have said the words of any of John chapter 17.
01:18:46
Nothing. So be careful when you're utilizing this kind of information.
01:18:53
And so what do we see, folks? I've presented you numerous texts where Jesus pointed to himself as the very source of spiritual life, said that it is only through him that you can know who
01:19:08
God the Father is. He identified himself as Yahweh. He was called
01:19:14
Lord and God by his disciples. He did not rebuke them. These are all teachings that can never be found in the mouth of the
01:19:24
Muslim Jesus. But they're found in the historical records of the Jesus of Nazareth.
01:19:31
You can't go to some other text and say, well, we can ignore those and we can just look at these and there you get a
01:19:38
Unitarian Jesus. That's not how you should, that's not how you read the Quran. Why is it how you read the
01:19:43
New Testament? In Surah chapter 5, remember the chain that's formed in Surah 5?
01:19:51
We sent down the Torah to Moses in which was light and guidance, remember? Then we sent down the
01:19:56
Injeel to Jesus. Jesus confirmed what was in the Torah and then we gave him the
01:20:02
Injeel. And then we sent down the reminder to Muhammad, which confirmed what came before is a muhaiman, a guardian of that and it contains light and guidance.
01:20:13
You have a chain, Moses Torah, Jesus Injeel, Muhammad Quran, right? So if that is what
01:20:21
Surah 5 says, how can you apply one method of interpretation to the
01:20:27
Quran where you read it in its context and a completely different method to the Injeel and ignore its context?
01:20:33
How does that work? Isn't one of the names of God, Al Haq, the truth?
01:20:39
How do you define truth? Consistency. And so I'm simply asking every one of you, be consistent because when you are, you will discover that the consistent analysis of Jesus's teaching is he taught
01:20:54
Christianity without question. Thank you very much for your attention. Thank you,
01:21:08
Dr. White. Mr. Ayub Karim, 15 minutes for your rebuttal, please. Bismillah ar -Rahman ar -Rahim.
01:21:17
Thank you, Dr. James White. Let me begin with his disciples worshipping him and Thomas worshipping him.
01:21:27
Now, Thomas has got the title, the Doubting Thomas. Why should I believe him? Seriously, you
01:21:34
Christians gave him the title of the Doubting Thomas. The man was in doubt and you want me to believe him. But here's something much more serious.
01:21:41
With regard to people worshipping people, did you know that Paul was considered God? According to Acts chapter 28, in Melita, the serpent bit him and he shrugged off,
01:21:55
Paul shrugged off the snake. And the people thought he would die. They thought he was a murderer or something to that effect.
01:22:01
And they saw nothing happened to him and they said he is a god. The people of Melita. Does it make
01:22:07
Paul a god? Just because people say a person is
01:22:12
God, doesn't make him God. And just because people worship somebody else, doesn't make them God.
01:22:18
This is something we need to understand. Because by virtue of Dr. James' logic, then
01:22:23
I should be a Hindu because you got 600 million people worshipping Rama, Krishna, Buddha and all those other people.
01:22:30
There's a logic. Just because they are worshipping those people, doesn't make them God. That is not proof.
01:22:38
That is not proof. You see, you got to understand something. An explanation by Dr. James White is not proof.
01:22:45
We all do that. We can explain things. We'll make a flowery discourse. But the question remains, where is the proof?
01:22:55
And let me tell you something. Explanation is not proof. Whatever is logical may not necessarily be true.
01:23:03
But whatever is true will always be logical. Remember that.
01:23:14
So, let us review this. Jesus is telling Mary Magdalene, I am going to my father and your father.
01:23:22
I am going to my God and your God. He is God, but he's telling Mary, I'm going to my God. Is that how you're going to reconcile the
01:23:29
Trinity? Seriously. You know, I have tried to understand the scriptures.
01:23:35
And when we look at the context of the scriptures, and I just want to clarify this with Dr. James White, when he quotes the
01:23:41
Quran, quote the Quran within the context of the Quran. Don't quote the Quran within the context of the Bible. It'll never work.
01:23:48
When you talk about, when the Quran talks about the Injil, it talks about the law of Moses.
01:23:55
It talks about that law, the Torah, that was given to Hazrat Musa alaihissalam, not the Pentateuch that you have in your
01:24:01
Bible. When God Almighty talks about the Injil, the
01:24:06
Injil of Hazrat Isa alaihissalam, the gospel according to St. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is not the
01:24:12
Injil of Jesus. So please, please,
01:24:18
I ask my Christian friends that do not interpret the Quran within the context of the
01:24:23
Bible. Please interpret the Quran within the context of the Quran itself. And he mentioned
01:24:29
Mohammed. It is a quality control. And you still want to interpret the Quran within the context of the
01:24:34
Bible? That's double standard, Dr. James White. No idolatry. That's the message he said that this young man was getting from Jesus Christ.
01:24:45
Okay, I will buy into that. No idolatry. But then you go to every church, you'll find the crucifix.
01:24:51
That according to our standard is an idol. So Christians are involved in idolatry. Jesus Christ said, you want to know what is the first three commandments?
01:24:58
I'll give you the first one. The very first one. Thou shall not make for thee a graven image of anything that is in the heavens or on earth or beneath the waters of the sea.
01:25:07
Thou shall have no other God before me. Thou shall not serve them nor bow down to them.
01:25:13
For your God is a jealous God. Exodus chapter 20. So you worshipping a man.
01:25:23
It's an image. It's an image. Jesus Christ is an image. And strangely, they have a very strange image.
01:25:31
Jesus Christ was a Middle Easterner. You expect him to look like a Jew and Arab. And I've been looking pictures.
01:25:37
I've been looking at pictures of Jesus Christ. Blonde hair. Blue eyes. Nordic nose.
01:25:44
You know, you think that person either from, you know, Sweden, Norway, probably a white American. I was doing a mosque tour and I couldn't believe my ears.
01:25:53
A lady from London actually thought that Jesus Christ was born in central London.
01:26:04
Now, after 4000 years, this supposedly God, Jesus Christ was a creator.
01:26:09
Okay. And this actually brings me more into doubt than any closer to Christianity. For 4000 years, you let the people to believe.
01:26:18
You let the people to believe in a God. Eli, Elah, or Yahweh, as you want to put it.
01:26:26
You even want to say Jehovah. I don't have a problem. But look at the context with this. Listen to the sound, my dear friends, especially my
01:26:33
Christian friends. Jesus Christ is supposed to be on the cross. Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah, Elah James White, both of us, and Rudolf, and everybody else in this hall, and every other human being, we all existed with God before the creation of everything.
01:27:46
So that is not unique to Jesus Christ. But let me tell you how, let me tell you how.
01:27:54
You see, Dr. James White and I were talking, and I was telling them that I have five grandchildren, the sixth one is on the way, and he congratulated me.
01:28:03
I think he told me, you've got four grandchildren, Dr. James? Right. Now, those children will grow up, my grandchildren will grow up, his grandchildren will grow up, they will get married, they will have children.
01:28:16
I don't know how many children my grandchildren will have. Dr. James White, most certainly you don't know how many children your grandchildren will have.
01:28:25
Agreed? Yes. But does God know how many children my grandchildren will have?
01:28:32
Does God know? Yes. So, so, in the knowledge of God, they all exist with God.
01:28:39
In the knowledge of God, we all existed. So, when Allah tells us, and the word became flesh, and we are the words, and we became flesh.
01:28:51
It's not unique to Jesus Christ. All of us became flesh. You see, they have a problem, it's because they only want to keep it for Jesus Christ.
01:29:03
They don't expand the horizon when it comes to interpretation. You know, this is, you know, I wrote this down, and I wanted to read this.
01:29:11
This is what amazes me. That the logic and reasoning that Christians use in interpretation.
01:29:16
Okay, let me rephrase that. Let me rephrase that. Rather, the lack of reason, the lack of logic, sound reasoning, and common sense never ceases to exist for me.
01:29:26
You know, the West has outstripped the world when it comes to applying logic, sound reasoning, and common sense.
01:29:33
So much so, that they have made astonishing advancements in the field of science, technology, and many other fields.
01:29:40
Just to name a few. But I cannot say the same when it comes to religion.
01:29:47
They lose all sense of logic, reason, and common sense. It appears they have a license to interpret scriptures to suit the doctrine rather than to find the truth.
01:30:02
This is where the problem is. We all are brought up with certain doctrines. Now when we start reading our scriptures, we want to find in the scriptures what we believe.
01:30:10
We are not looking in the scriptures to find the truth. If only you can believe in la ilaha illallah, that there is no
01:30:18
God but one God, that there is no God but Allah. Whatever you have in your head, get rid of it.
01:30:24
And I say this to both Muslims and Christians. Muslims are also brought up with preconceived ideas about Islam.
01:30:31
If you want to understand the Quran, to tell me that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger, you are translating the shahada for me.
01:30:38
You are not telling me what it means. And I am telling you that whatever ilah you have in your head, you got to get rid of that and put in your head
01:30:45
Allah. And Allah you will find in the Quran and no other book. And that is how you will find the truth.
01:30:52
Same with the Christians. Get rid of that preconceived notion that you have. Get into your scriptures. Look into your
01:30:57
Bible and you will find Jesus Christ said, Seek you the truth and the truth shall set you free.
01:31:03
Dr. James White mentioned that Islam started some 500 years after Christianity.
01:31:11
I beg to differ. Islam was practiced by the various prophets. Moses, peace be upon him,
01:31:18
I believed, taught and preached Islam.
01:31:24
Same with Aaron. In fact, let's start with Noah, Abraham and we went down to David, Solomon, you put
01:31:33
Jesus, Yahya, John the Baptist and Jesus Christ and Muhammad, peace be upon them all.
01:31:39
They all preached Islam and they all were Muslims. Christians will find it very difficult to find the truth in the
01:31:49
Bible. You will find the truth in the Bible. I believe you will. But at the same time, write to me,
01:31:56
I will give you a free copy of the Quran. It will assist you. You see, Christian scholars have a habit of changing names.
01:32:03
Like I gave an example, they use the word perfect instead of Muslim. Then altogether lovely in the book of Psalms.
01:32:09
The Hebrew word is Muhammadim. They change it to altogether lovely. Right? And I don't know why they do this.
01:32:20
Joshua, Yeshua, made it into Joshua. We look at Eunice, they made it into Jonah.
01:32:25
Yusuf, they made it into Joseph. Isa, they made it into Jesus.
01:32:36
You know, in South Africa we had a law. I don't know if my friend Rudolph will remember.
01:32:42
He's South African, he'll remember. That there was a law in South Africa that when you were crossing the road and when the light came green for the pedestrians to cross, you couldn't take a stroll like what people do nowadays.
01:32:55
You cross, you've got to walk briskly. If you got caught for jaywalking, they would find you, they would give you a ticket.
01:33:02
Do you remember those days, Rudolph? It was called jaywalking. I think we need to write to somebody.
01:33:08
We need to write to somebody, my dear Muslim brothers. I don't know which Christian association or which
01:33:14
Christian scholars we need to write to. Or maybe we can write to Donald Trump. They need to implement a law to prevent
01:33:21
Christians from jaywriting. Seriously, we have to do that. Everything they make it a jay. They just change words.
01:33:28
For example, good master. I'm not going to have time to finish this, but let me just say that the
01:33:36
Arabic word, good master, and it actually has been changed in the
01:33:42
Revised Standard Version and even in the American Standard Version that Dr. James White told me about.
01:33:48
I need to get a copy of that as well. Good master has been changed to teacher. So the essence of the question whereby
01:33:55
Jesus Christ is going to ask you, why call his name good, is gone. Finished.
01:34:03
So with that, I have a lot more to say, but unfortunately, I don't have the time.
01:34:10
Maybe I'll try and do a little more during question and answer time. In this one minute that I have,
01:34:19
I strongly recommend that if you want to find Islam, don't go too far. For those of you that are Christians, read the
01:34:25
Beatitudes of Jesus, Matthew chapter 5 from verse 3 to 12. Read his parables, salt and light, treasures in heaven.
01:34:33
Do not worry, judging others. Ask, seek, knock, the narrow and the wide gates, the tree and its fruits, the wise and the foolish builders.
01:34:39
All this is teaching you Islam. How they change it to Christianity beats me. His many teachings, go read it.
01:34:46
Fulfillment of the law, murder, adultery, divorce, oath, an eye for an eye, love for enemies, give to the needy, prayer, fasting.
01:34:55
If the crucifixion and resurrection was the fundamental theme of the life of Jesus Christ, then
01:35:00
I want to know what was the purpose of sending out the 12. Go read. In Matthew chapter 10,
01:35:08
I sincerely ask you all to go and read Matthew chapter 10. There's so much of Islam, and you'll find that that passage correlates so much with Islam.
01:35:17
Jazakallah. Thank you
01:35:26
Mr. Karim. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm sure that you'd love for this debate to rage on.
01:35:33
The next section of our debate would be five questions posed by each speaker to the other.
01:35:43
We'll give Dr. White the opportunity to ask the first five questions to Mr.
01:35:49
Karim. Dr. White. The answer will be given two minutes, not more than two minutes to answer each question.
01:36:02
Are you going to stand? They're not going to hear you sitting down there. Okay. Question number one, two.
01:36:17
In Mark chapter 14, the high priest tore his clothes and said, what need do we have of further witnesses?
01:36:26
You have heard the blasphemy. Could you please explain to us, in light of the
01:36:32
Muslim understanding of Jesus, why Jesus' words, quoting
01:36:37
Psalm 110, 1 and from Daniel chapter 7, would be considered blasphemous?
01:36:44
Why were Jesus' words in Mark 14 considered blasphemous by the high priest? Well, I don't think the words of Jesus Christ would sound blasphemous.
01:36:53
When we look at the run -up from Sanhedrin and before Pilate, you will notice that the accusation, first accusation that they made with Jesus Christ, it was blasphemy, but Jesus Christ never blasphemed.
01:37:04
He said, you know, you are saying, he asked them about stoning, and then when he goes to Pilate, and he gives another answer to Pilate, but what
01:37:14
I'm saying is that Jesus Christ never claimed deity for himself. It's what the
01:37:19
Jews were accusing him of. And these were all false accusations. It's because they didn't want Jesus to do what he came to do.
01:37:28
And that was to bring them back to the law. And I don't think
01:37:34
Jesus Christ claimed deity for himself. He would not blaspheme like that. We believe that Jesus Christ is a prophet of God, and he would stay far from blasphemy.
01:37:44
Thank you. All right, I'll use my second question to just honestly ask.
01:37:52
I think we're going one -to -one, or we just go all five one time? Yeah, so I thought it was all five at once.
01:37:58
All right. So I'll use my second question to ask, do you really believe that the answer that you just gave is derived from looking carefully at Mark chapter 14, its utilization of Psalm 110,
01:38:13
Daniel 7, or was that response primarily based upon something other than actually dealing with Mark chapter 14?
01:38:24
Because I didn't hear anything that was actually relevant to the text that I was asking about. Would you give me time to check it out, please?
01:38:30
Sure. Mark chapter 14.
01:38:39
Yes, it is, if you want the specific verses, I gave them in the opening, but specifically it is
01:38:47
Mark 14, 61 through 64. Jesus said in response to the high priest,
01:38:54
Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One? Jesus said, I am, and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.
01:39:02
Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy. They all condemned him to be deserving of death.
01:39:10
And the answer that Jesus gave is a quotation from Psalm 110, 1 and Daniel chapter 7. And so do you really think that the answer you gave actually engaged with the text of the
01:39:22
New Testament, or was it something other than that? All right. It still comes down to the same thing
01:39:31
I've mentioned. It's regarding blasphemy. But let me quote the scripture for you. Again, the high priest asked him, Are you the
01:39:36
Christ, the Son of the Blessed One? I am, Jesus said, and you will see the
01:39:42
Son of Man sitting at the right hand side of the mighty one and coming on the clouds of heaven. Now, let us analyze this.
01:39:51
Are you the Christ? Christ means anointed one. It does not mean the Son of the Blessed One. Then, Jesus Christ does not refer, it's here.
01:40:00
And you will see the Son of Man. You will see the Son of Man, the Son of Man. Jesus Christ always referred to himself as the
01:40:07
Son of Man and never does he refer to himself as Son of God. People refer to him as Son of God.
01:40:14
But Son of God is not a title unique for Jesus Christ as well. You see, if Jesus Christ referred to Mary, your father, that means she's the daughter of God.
01:40:24
And for those that are led by the Spirit of God according to the books of Romans, then they are the sons of God. And you read in the book of Genesis, chapter 6, verse 2, and the sons of God saw the daughters of men with him.
01:40:35
And you read about David, this day have I begotten a son. So Jesus is also a begotten son of God.
01:40:41
So, I would say that Jesus Christ, and sitting at the right hand side of God, and I can't understand why you make this into a physical description.
01:40:52
Sitting on the right hand side. Salim Malou is my right hand man. But today he's sitting on my right hand side.
01:40:58
But the thing is that when I say that he's my right hand, I mean that I can rely on him.
01:41:03
So, all that, with reference to the Old Testament, I haven't looked at that as well, but I still say that whatever that they alleged against Jesus Christ was not true.
01:41:17
Thank you. My third question will be, can the
01:41:25
Islamic Jesus say the words of Jesus in Matthew, chapter 28, specifically,
01:41:33
All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the
01:41:41
Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you. And, lo,
01:41:47
I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Could you please explain how this is not
01:41:55
Jesus teaching Christianity rather than Islam in light of the specific statement of the debate this evening?
01:42:05
That's exactly the point. All authority is given unto me. The point is given unto me.
01:42:12
It's not his own authority. If God didn't give it to him, he would have had no authority. So God is telling him that that authority is given to you.
01:42:21
So you have one person who's got authority. He gives it to a subordinate. Therefore, Jesus Christ cannot be equal to God Almighty.
01:42:29
I think that makes my point clear. And to go into further, trying to come back to the point to show the equality between Jesus and God really does not cut ice.
01:42:39
Thank you. Okay. Let me burn my fourth question to follow up immediately on that then. So while you are saying that there is a distinction between the
01:42:48
Father and the Son, which, of course, is a part of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, is it true that the
01:42:53
Islamic Jesus today possesses all authority in Heaven and Earth and that we are to be baptizing disciples of all nations in the name of the
01:43:04
Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit? Where do we find that in Islamic practice or teaching?
01:43:09
That is not an Islamic teaching. Islam says us very, very clearly, وَلَا تَقُولُوا سَلَاسًا
01:43:16
This is, don't say Trinity. إِنْتَهُ خَيْرًا لَكُمْ It is better for you. إِنَّمَ اللَّهُ إِلَٰهُ وَاهِدٌ
01:43:22
For your God is one God. This is the same thing Jesus Christ said, سَيَمَا إِسْرَائِيلُ أَدُونَي إِلَا هَيْنُ أَدُونَي إِخَدْ
01:43:30
Here, Israel, the Lord, our God, is one Lord. If only Christians can reconcile with that,
01:43:36
I think we would be the same people. Okay, so I guess I'll... I guess
01:43:43
I'll go ahead and use my last question, though I had a number of others to get to, but it's a good one. Why should
01:43:49
I not say that the debate thesis was just concluded because I gave you Jesus' teaching and you said,
01:43:56
Nope, we don't believe any of that. We don't believe all authority has been given to Him in heaven and earth. We don't believe that we would be going and making disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the
01:44:05
Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. So doesn't that mean that since these are the words of Jesus, it's only
01:44:10
Christianity that teaches that and not Islam? Alright, but then you are giving me a scripture that will actually promote your doctrine, but then
01:44:24
I can also say... Wait, let me finish. Let me finish. But then
01:44:30
I can also say what Jesus Christ said, Go unto the lost sheep of Israel.
01:44:36
Go not unto the way of the Gentiles. That contradicts. Go and make disciples.
01:44:42
It's an open contradiction. It is a contradiction. Please ask me that question right now. Please, please.
01:44:49
Please. Please. Please ask that as one of your five questions.
01:44:58
I just ask it as a favor. I'm not going to ask you that because that is not related to the subject. Don't worry.
01:45:07
I'll bring it up myself later on. Thank you for your... Thank you Dr. White for your questions.
01:45:14
Mr. Ayub Karim, you may now ask your five questions. Okay. Let's begin with if you believe that Jesus is submitting his will to God and there is scripture that says that he is submitting his will to God, then clearly this shows that Jesus is subservient to God.
01:45:41
Therefore, don't you think that common sense dictates that Jesus is lesser than God and that Jesus and God cannot be co -equal?
01:45:49
Okay. We explained this numerous times in the last debate but I'm very thankful for the opportunity of explaining it again.
01:45:56
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is not that the Father is the Son or the Son is the Spirit or the
01:46:01
Spirit is the Father. It is not teaching that the Father does everything that the Son does or everything that the
01:46:07
Spirit does. They've taken different roles in the redemption of God's people. It was not the
01:46:12
Father who became incarnate. It was the Son. It's not the Spirit that is sent to indwell the people of God.
01:46:19
The Son is sent to indwell the people of God. It's the Spirit that's sent. So they take different roles.
01:46:24
This is the specific teaching of the scriptures themselves. And so since the Son comes to be the
01:46:31
Messiah, he submits himself to the Father, he is sent by the Father, he worships the
01:46:36
Father, and when he voluntarily gives his life as a sacrifice for sin upon Calvary's tree,
01:46:43
Philippians chapter 2 says, Therefore God the Father has highly exalted him and given him the name which is above every name, that the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is kurios,
01:47:00
Lord, the name of Yahweh in the Old Testament, to the glory of God the Father.
01:47:06
Jesus' exaltation does not detract from the exaltation of the Father or the glory of the
01:47:11
Father because there is only one true God. And in fact, the very term that is used in Philippians 2 when it says every knee will bow to him, every tongue will confess was used of Yahweh in the prophet
01:47:23
Isaiah and it's used of Jesus. So you just simply need to understand what it is we are saying and you will see that the vast majority of the arguments that you use are not addressed against the doctrine of Trinity.
01:47:35
Thank you, Mr. White. We've run out of time. My second question following up with the first one. I believe that God is infinite, eternal.
01:47:44
How does a being that is infinite and eternal can reduce itself to something that is finite and mortal?
01:47:52
Thank you. And start. Okay. God, who created mankind, has the capacity and ability to take upon himself in the second person of Trinity a perfect human nature.
01:48:07
He made it. He created it. This is the fundamental difference between us and I did a full debate on this subject with Abdullah Kunda in Australia.
01:48:14
I highly recommend you take a look at it. You just made a misrepresentation of what we believe.
01:48:20
We do not believe that God ceased being infinite. The Father did not become incarnate.
01:48:26
The Spirit did not become incarnate. Even the Son did not cease being infinite. The Son, as the creator, has the power to take on a perfect human nature without ceasing to be
01:48:38
God. He's the one that made us. And be honest, the fundamental objection that you have against this is the transcendence of a law.
01:48:47
That's the fundamental argument. But the real question is if God can create a human nature, why can he not, for his own self -glorification and for the love of his people and to bring about redemption so his law is not just simply broken and not fulfilled, how is it that you can assert that it's impossible that God could take on that human nature?
01:49:09
He's not ceasing to be God. He didn't stop upholding the universe in its place or any of those things.
01:49:16
You must understand what it is we actually believe because when you argue against a straw man, we are not promoting truth amongst ourselves or anyone else.
01:49:26
You have to understand what it is that is being said and argue against that.
01:49:31
And so the question is based upon a simple falsehood. The infinite did not become finite.
01:49:38
He did not cease being infinite. But since he created a perfect human nature, he can take on that perfect human nature, one person,
01:49:46
Jesus Christ, with two natures, divine and human. That's what John and the rest of the gospel teaches. Thank you,
01:49:53
Mr. White. Spot on. Your next question, Mr. Kareem. According to Scripture, and we've been to the
01:50:01
Scripture today, where Jesus Christ said... I'm sorry, what passage? Same, Matthew chapter 5.
01:50:07
We were starting with 19, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, where Jesus Christ said all things are possible with God.
01:50:15
Okay. All right? Oh, you mean the story of the rich young ruler in Matthew. Okay. It's just hard to hear sometimes with the echo.
01:50:22
So, generally Christians believe that all things are possible with God. I do not believe that all things are possible with God.
01:50:29
And here's a typical example. Show me, Dr. White, where will God put us, put me in a kingdom that does not belong to him?
01:50:39
Where? I'm sorry. Let's say I get banished from the kingdom of God. In a manner of speaking, he will put me into hell.
01:50:44
But we know that belongs to God. I'm asking you, show me where can God put me that doesn't belong to him?
01:50:50
Because you believe that all things are possible with God. So, I'm asking, show me a place that God can put me that doesn't belong to him?
01:50:58
Okay. I'm a little bit confused about it. First of all, when it says all things are possible...
01:51:03
Shall I finish? Wait. I haven't finished my question. I will still wait. Okay. Show me, show me, show me a place where God will put us that doesn't belong to God.
01:51:14
Because I believe that all things are not possible with God. Your scripture says all things are possible with God and I think that you believe it.
01:51:20
So, show me a place where God will put me that doesn't belong to God. That, I believe, is something
01:51:26
God cannot do. Thank you. Ready? Okay.
01:51:31
First of all, the statement that with God all things are possible is specifically in regards to the ability of God to cause a rich person who loves their things to stop loving their things and become followers of God.
01:51:44
That's specifically... The context was if that's true, then who can possibly be saved?
01:51:49
And Jesus' response is all things are possible with God. He can save those that he determines to save. We all actually agree with that.
01:51:56
The second part of the question was where can God put me that doesn't belong to God? No one is saying God's putting you in a place that doesn't belong to God.
01:52:03
The kingdom and being in outer darkness are not the same thing. They both may belong to God but they're not the same thing, obviously.
01:52:11
Does hell belong to Allah? And so, if you put somebody in hell, is that not some place where God still created that and rules over that?
01:52:21
So, it doesn't make any sense to say, well, show me where someone is going to be placed. But the most important aspect of this is, look, what did
01:52:29
Jesus say? If you want to know the Father, there is one way and I have to reveal the
01:52:36
Father to you for you to know the Father. That's what Jesus said. The Muslim Jesus never said that and could not say that.
01:52:45
But Jesus did say that historically. Those are his words and we have to deal with those words especially if you believe that Jesus was a prophet of God which everyone in this room is supposed to believe.
01:52:57
So, if a prophet of God said, the only way you're going to know God is by me, then if we reject who he is and we do not submit to him, then we are putting ourselves outside of his grace and his forgiveness.
01:53:12
And therefore, the only thing we can expect is to receive justice for our sins.
01:53:17
I want mercy for my sins, not justice for my sins.
01:53:32
Alright, this question follows up to the previous one. I believe that God cannot lie.
01:53:40
I believe that what? God Almighty cannot lie. I agree. You agree. So, if you agree, then you will have to confirm that this is something that God cannot do.
01:53:54
Therefore, all things are not possible with God. There it is. Is that the question?
01:54:04
That's my question. Well, this is some kind of... It's sort of like when people say, well,
01:54:11
Paul said, all Cretans are liars, but it was a Cretan who said it. Therefore, you have a contradiction.
01:54:18
We can play these games if you want. There was a context of Jesus' words that's very clear to everyone and that is,
01:54:25
God can save whoever he wants. If you want to turn around and say, yeah, well, God can't create a rock he can lift or God can't lie or something like that and is that really what we're here to debate?
01:54:36
How does this have anything to do with whether Jesus taught Christianity or Islam? Zero. Nothing.
01:54:49
So, I will... I did. I did. I cannot force someone to hear the truth, but I can answer the question clearly and I did.
01:54:57
Okay. Thank you.
01:55:02
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Is this my last question? That's correct. It's your last question, Mr. Gaye. Alright.
01:55:07
Dr. James White. I believe in Jesus Christ and you believe in Jesus Christ, although differently.
01:55:17
That Jesus dies? No, no. But whatever the difference is, my question to you is, why did not
01:55:24
Jesus Christ tell his disciples that you are Christians and the religion
01:55:29
I'm giving you is Christianity? I'm sorry.
01:55:39
I'm sorry, but why did he have to? There is no...
01:55:44
There is no logical, rational reason. Please, please, please. Let me... You're stealing my time when you do this.
01:55:50
Stop. Stop. Calm down, everybody. There is no logical, rational reason why
01:55:58
Jesus had to use particular language. The question tonight is clearly understandable.
01:56:05
When I laid out the differences between Christianity and Islam, no one argued with that. Everyone in this room agreed.
01:56:11
We disagree about the Trinity. We disagree about Jesus being the Son of God. We disagree about the crucifixion and resurrection. We disagree about what the gospel is and how a person has peace with God.
01:56:19
We all know that's true. Why are we even arguing about any of these other things? It makes absolutely, positively no sense.
01:56:27
There is no logical way that you could argue that Jesus has to use the word
01:56:32
Christianity. The majority of the revelation of the New Testament about what the church was being about and things like that was not a part of Jesus' ministry because that wasn't all of the
01:56:42
New Testament. He had apostles that he then utilized by the Holy Spirit to bring this revelation and there's plenty there about what the church is and what the church is to do.
01:56:52
It doesn't have to be in the words of Jesus. There is no logical reason to be applauding this. Why are we doing this?
01:56:59
Folks, we need to be talking to one another based upon truth and accurate representation and not going, yeah, we got a point.
01:57:08
Let's not worry about the points, folks. Let's worry about what the actual subject is and respect one another in focusing upon that truth or we're never going to get past where our generations before us who never talked to each other and never got very far got.
01:57:22
We need to go farther. Thank you, gentlemen.
01:57:32
That closes the question and answer session for each speaker. Ladies and gentlemen, we're now going to open up the floor to question and answers.
01:57:42
We'll allow five questions to Dr. White and five questions to Mr.
01:57:49
Karim. We'll alternate the questions. One to Mr. Karim and one to Dr. White.
01:57:55
We'll allow two minutes for each question to be answered. Are there any questions?
01:58:01
I'm sure there must be. Please, sorry, before you go on, please can
01:58:22
I ask that you be brief and don't ask a question after a question after a question. Ask a question and wait for a response.
01:58:31
Please tell us who that question is directed at. Jesus says in John there are many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now.
01:58:45
But for when he, the spirit of truth shall come, he shall guide you to all truth. And he shall not speak of himself, but whatever we shall hear, he shall speak, and he shall glorify me.
01:58:55
Now I know that you're going to be telling me that's the Holy Spirit that obviously Jesus was talking about.
01:59:01
But I want you to confirm this. Because in the verse before this, Jesus says that nevertheless, it is expedient for you that I leave.
01:59:12
For if I do not leave, the Comforter cannot come. But if I leave, I will send him to you.
01:59:18
Now we didn't know that the Holy Spirit was actually present at the time of Jesus, even before Jesus in the womb of Elizabeth.
01:59:26
So who is this Comforter that Jesus is speaking about? And it's definitely not the Holy Spirit because as I just explained to you now, that the
01:59:34
Holy Spirit was present before Jesus, and at the time of Jesus, and after Jesus.
01:59:40
But yet Jesus is saying that if I go not away, the Comforter cannot come. So that is clearly saying that Jesus need to depart in order for that Comforter to come.
01:59:49
So can you please explain who that Comforter is? Thank you for your question. Yes, the text is very, very clear.
01:59:54
Your misunderstanding is of course the Holy Spirit existed before that day. He's eternal. But he did not have the role that he has as being sent by the
02:00:02
Father and the Son to indwell the church that is created through the death of Jesus Christ. And so there is no way you can read
02:00:09
John 14 and John 16 and not see very plainly that the one who is sent is to indwell indwell the disciples.
02:00:18
Not someone who's going to come 600 years later with a different gospel. This was meant to encourage the hearts of the disciples.
02:00:28
Telling them, don't worry guys, 600 years from now another prophet is going to come is not in any way shape or form going to encourage them.
02:00:36
The promise was that the Spirit who is another Comforter would come to them and indwell them.
02:00:43
You remove the context of that half a millennium down the road. That is a complete misrepresentation of the text.
02:00:51
We don't do argumentation. You ask the question and I give the answer and we move to the next person. That's respectful.
02:00:59
That's the rules. You need to stick with them. I understand what you believe about this. I've debated this topic.
02:01:04
I would invite you to go watch the three hour debate with Shabir Ali in London on this issue.
02:01:11
And you will see that what he had to do was basically say that you have to cut John up into parts because he recognizes if you let
02:01:18
John 14, 15, and 16 stand together, there is no way that has anything to do with someone 600 years after the days of Jesus.
02:01:25
It is impossible. The next question
02:01:38
The next question would be for Mr. Carey. Does anybody have a question for Mr.
02:01:44
Carey? Ladies and gentlemen, please may
02:01:49
I ask that when the speaker is responding to your question that you do not interject and disrupt his chain of thought.
02:01:57
This is not an argument. You've asked your question. Give him a chance to respond please. And that's where it stops.
02:02:07
Go ahead. I'm going to structure my question. We understand that Yahweh, almighty
02:02:14
God, Elohim, is holy. We are sinners. We are separated from God by our sin due to the sin that we received through Adam's line.
02:02:26
The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. We cannot pay that penalty and still live.
02:02:34
And we also cannot earn it. This is why Jesus, as the
02:02:40
Lamb of God, paid for sin once for all. And it's received by repenting of our sin and trusting in what
02:02:50
He has done for us as Savior and Lord. We trust in Him.
02:02:56
And from that we receive assurance of salvation. And Paul wrote in Romans, the wages of sin is death.
02:03:05
But the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our
02:03:11
Lord. And in John 11, Jesus said, I am the resurrection and the life.
02:03:18
He who believes in me shall not die, but shall live. And Peter preached in Acts 4, there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved than that of Jesus Christ.
02:03:32
And so what I would say is, how do you as Muslims, we have assurance of salvation.
02:03:42
I know what happened to me when I trusted in Jesus Christ. How do you have assurance of where your soul will be for eternity?
02:03:51
We know where we are going. I have testimonies galore about what happens. But how do
02:03:57
Muslims, I had a fear of death before I gave my life to Jesus. But now
02:04:03
I have assurance. I have peace. Thank you. I think we've got the question. Mr.
02:04:08
Karim. I've got two minutes. Now, this is the typical dilemma
02:04:18
I have to deal with. Every day with Christians. It's a problem. They believe that they have the guarantee, the assurance that they are going to go to heaven.
02:04:30
And heaven, I'm telling you, is a far better place than earth. What are you waiting for?
02:04:36
Seek death. Go there. Why are you bothering yourself on earth? You have the guarantee.
02:04:41
You've got the passport. Why are you still hanging around on earth? This is what the Quran tells us. Right? This is what the
02:04:48
Quran tells us. That if you have the guarantee, why waste your time on earth? Go to heaven.
02:04:54
You have the license. Thank you for that short and succinct answer,
02:05:01
Mr. Karim. Ladies and gentlemen, please can we have some calm?
02:05:08
The next question will be for Dr. White. Please go ahead. Exodus chapter 21 verse 21 says it's okay to beat your slave with a rod as long as they recover.
02:05:23
I'm sorry. I cannot hear what you're saying. Exodus chapter 21 verse 21.
02:05:35
Go ahead. It says it's okay to beat your slave with a rod as long as they recover after a day or two.
02:05:45
My question is, why does your God allow the beating of slaves even if it's the past or the present?
02:05:54
The law of Moses and the entire corpus of the law of Moses which your
02:06:02
Quran says was sent down by God and contains light and guidance and was confirmed by Jesus, hence this is the question you need to answer as well, reveals limitations on the subject of slavery that were unknown in the ancient world.
02:06:18
And as such, contradicted the prevailing perspectives of the day.
02:06:25
But they did allow for the existence of slavery because in that day, due to the economy of that day, if you did not have that, many people had no means of providing for themselves and for their family outside of selling themselves into slavery or in warfare you either had to kill your captives or you had to do something else with them and that was what was involved in Hebrew slavery.
02:06:51
So yes, this is a limitation on what you can do. It is a limitation that did not exist at that time.
02:06:59
It was a step forward and eventually in the economy of God through the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ that caused the understanding that all men are brothers with each other in the faith in Christ.
02:07:12
You had the abolishment of slavery. That is a great progress.
02:07:19
I hope we never get back into a position in this world where that has to be considered again. I hope the economy stays strong.
02:07:26
I hope we don't have massive famines. But the reality is you and I both have to answer this question because according to your own perspective, this is revelation from God.
02:07:37
And so you have to recognize what it meant in its context and that's what it meant at that particular time.
02:07:43
It was a great advancement over the practices of that particular day. Thank you,
02:07:51
Dr. White. We'll take the next question to Mr. Karim. Earlier you quoted from Matthew chapter 7 where Jesus was on the cross and he said
02:08:06
Eli, Eli lama sabachthani translated, my
02:08:12
God, my God, why have you persecuted me? And you used that scripture to disprove
02:08:20
Jesus being God. I was just wondering if you used that particular scripture to disprove that Jesus is
02:08:29
God. He was forsaken, he fell forsaken because he was dying on the cross.
02:08:37
But you use a scripture where you don't believe that he died on the cross but you're using that scripture to disprove that he was
02:08:46
God. The gentleman made a statement but he didn't ask me a question.
02:09:04
He made a statement that I used it to disprove that Jesus is God. But what is the question?
02:09:11
You made a statement, please ask me a question. What is the question? The question is do we believe that Jesus said that while he was on the cross?
02:09:22
Do I believe it? Yes. Do I believe it? Do you believe that Jesus said that while he was on the cross?
02:09:31
I don't believe that. I don't believe it. Please can we have some comments so that the speaker could respond.
02:09:54
The Bible consists of 66 books. The Dubai Bible consists of 73 books.
02:10:00
Now the one printed for the new millennium has 81 books. Many Christians don't know that.
02:10:07
I use scripture to show you where you are going wrong. Irrespective of whether I believe in it or not.
02:10:13
But it is your scripture. Now, when I quote it, does it mean that I believe in it?
02:10:21
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. I don't believe in it but I use it. It's there.
02:10:28
It's that you believe in it but I don't believe in it. Just like Dr. James White, he quotes the
02:10:33
Quran he doesn't believe in it but he quotes it and I don't have an issue with that. Do I?
02:10:39
So why should you have an issue in things that I don't believe in and I quote it. I quote Hindu scriptures I don't believe in it.
02:10:45
So what is the problem? Thank you
02:10:54
Mr. Karim. The next question would be for Dr. White. My question is that it's in the book of Acts chapter 2 verse 22 where Peter was telling the
02:11:16
Jews that who Jesus was. He quotes that Jesus is a man.
02:11:27
He said here people of Israel here this way Jesus of Nazareth is a man approved by God with signs, wonders and miracles that God did by him.
02:11:39
So my question is that if Peter is telling the Jews that Jesus was a man approved by God with wonders and miracles so this chapter does it contradict your claim that Jesus is
02:11:52
God? Thank you for your question. Well I'm very glad to get to introduce you to the doctrine of the
02:12:01
Trinity which you do not understand. We believe Jesus was the God man.
02:12:07
He was fully God and fully man. So there's nothing contradictory here at all to what
02:12:13
Christians believe. This has been the belief of Christians from the beginning and I would like to point out something else to all the people that are not listening to a word
02:12:21
I'm saying but just going listen gentlemen listen we aren't getting anywhere when all you're doing is yelling.
02:12:29
Listen to what I'm saying. Your arguments are not against Christianity they're against a straw man and that says you don't have a value of truth.
02:12:37
Stop listen to what's being said. Not only that look at the text. This man delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God what?
02:12:46
You nailed to a cross by the predetermined plan and knowledge of God and put him to death. You don't believe that do you?
02:12:54
Yes Jesus was a man. The word became flesh. I just spent two minutes talking about how
02:13:01
God has the ability to take on a perfect human nature. He is the perfect man. If you're going to argue against our position argue against what we actually believe not what you would like to think we believe because if we're people of truth look
02:13:15
I am upset when people make bad arguments against Islam because they're not showing respect for you but you're not showing respect for the truth when you make bad arguments and misrepresent what we believe.
02:13:26
We have to get beyond this folks. We have to start speaking the truth to one another and if we don't know what the other side believes we need to ask questions and be willing to learn.
02:13:35
I got into a bunch of trouble two years ago because I had a dialogue with Yasser Khadi and I said
02:13:41
I had learned much from him. I had Christians ripping me to shreds.
02:13:46
How dare you do something like that? How dare I not? If I'm going to show respect to Muslims I need to listen to what
02:13:53
Muslims say and I'm hearing people in here right now who aren't doing that in reverse. Thank you
02:14:02
Dr. Watts. Ladies and gentlemen please can I remind you once again not to interject when the speaker is responding.
02:14:11
We are taking away his time and we are disrupting his train of thought. Please hold your comments and your applause until the end.
02:14:21
Thank you. The next question for Mr. Karim please. Thank you Mr. Karim. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to ask you this question.
02:14:29
But during the questioning Okay. Mr. Karim thank you for giving me this chance to ask you this question.
02:14:37
During the question time between you and Dr. James there was much discussion around the son of man.
02:14:45
Where you actually stated that the son of man is merely a man.
02:14:50
Correct? Did you go past what he said after that? And do you think that your interpretation of that would supersede the interpretation of those
02:15:03
Jews, of those priests who tore off their clothes? Why should we listen to your interpretation and not the interpretation of those people when they accused him for blasphemy?
02:15:17
Because I think, maybe you do know this, that the son of man was actually a direct reference to Daniel when he came before the ancient of days.
02:15:27
You know this because you studied it. I know. Thank you. The question
02:15:36
You want me to explain something? He's asking you to deal with the fact that the son of man in Daniel chapter 7 is a divine being to whom he's given kingdom, power, authority, people worship him.
02:15:49
So if you say the son of man is just a man, why did the Jewish high priest rip his clothes and say it's blasphemy?
02:15:55
Why should we accept your interpretation of the son of man rather than theirs? Is that a fair? He says that's a fair analysis.
02:16:04
Ladies and gentlemen. You can't see.
02:16:10
From up here we can't see anything. Besides the past it's like we can't see. So forgive us for that.
02:16:16
Okay, but listen. I'm not going to say that listen, whatever transpired there was true.
02:16:23
We are agreeing according to what the report is saying. Now, why will you have Sinaitic Gospels which give you one angle of the happenings you get
02:16:30
John which is giving you something totally different. What I'm saying is that Jesus Christ, this is what I said with Dr.
02:16:36
James White, is that Jesus Christ referred to himself as the son of man. People accused him of being son of God.
02:16:42
And even if they said he is the son of God, it was not in the literal sense. I think where the problem comes about, and I think
02:16:48
Christians need to appreciate this, even you Dr. James White, is that the
02:16:53
Torah and the Injil in its original form, and now you have what you say, the
02:16:58
Torah and the Gospel again to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
02:17:05
I'm losing my train of thoughts. What I'm saying is that those are not the original works. They are very very different.
02:17:12
So we will have to go by what they say, but there is no credibility in that. That is what
02:17:17
I'm saying. That is why we have so much of contradiction between the various Gospels. If it was a clear cut like what we have, one
02:17:24
Quran, one message, we know what is happening. We don't have that latitude that you have where you can choose certain interpretation.
02:17:32
And that is why in the famous words of Sheikh Ahmad Dirat, that is why in the famous words of Sheikh Ahmad Dirat, he has always said that is why
02:17:40
Christianity is divided into 1 ,001 different sects amongst the whites of South Africa and 3 ,000 different sects amongst the blacks of South Africa.
02:17:47
Why do you have such divisions? Yes, we have our divisions, but it is not based on the Quran. Thank you.
02:17:54
Thank you, Mr. Kari. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question for Dr.
02:18:00
White. Go ahead, come through. No cutting in line in front of the ladies. Come on now. Let's all be nice.
02:18:06
Thank you for the opportunity. Dr. White, I would like to find out from you if you believe that Jesus came to give us religion.
02:18:15
Okay. Thank you. Did Jesus come to give us religion? That all depends on what you define as religion.
02:18:25
If you mean by religion simply an external set of rules, behaviors, there is
02:18:32
God's law, there is that element of the Christian faith, but that's not enough to describe what it is
02:18:39
Jesus gave to us because Jesus described what he did as creating his body.
02:18:46
We are his body. We are members of him, and by the Holy Spirit indwelling each believer, we are made one supernatural body whereby he is living his life out through us.
02:18:58
Now, we have God's law, therefore we obey God's law because that reveals to us what his will is.
02:19:05
We want to do what's pleasing to God. We want to live in a way that is pure and holy in his sight, but that is the result of being changed from the inside.
02:19:14
It's not the means by which I become changed. It reflects who I am because of the work of the
02:19:20
Spirit of God within me. So, if you identify as a religion, worship, giving, service, sacrifice, yes, but in the
02:19:34
Christian faith, that is all the result of the radical change that takes place when we are regenerated.
02:19:41
I was a dead sinner. I hated God. And by his mercy and grace, he raised me to spiritual life.
02:19:51
The Bible says he takes out a heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh. And that's all by his grace.
02:19:59
And so, without that change, without that intimate relationship with God, you don't have
02:20:05
Christianity. You can't replace the one for the other. If you've got the one, the other is good.
02:20:11
If you have, if you take that part out, the rest of it isn't good. So, you have a question for Dr.
02:20:24
Wyatt? It's a simple question, so I just... Get real close so we can get a good recording of it too.
02:20:31
I just need to know from you, which is the right Bible that you use?
02:20:37
There's about so many kinds of versions you've got. Would you tell me which is the right Bible? Which you think is the best
02:20:43
Bible? Thanks. Alright. Sorry, can we give
02:20:53
Dr. Wyatt a chance to speak? I don't know what's funny about the question. It's a good question. Can I answer it?
02:21:00
Okay, thanks. The Bible is written in two languages and one minor language. The Old Testament is written in Hebrew with about 12 chapters in Aramaic.
02:21:08
The New Testament is written in what's called Koine Greek. When I am preaching in my church, it is my discipline to attempt to make sure that when
02:21:16
I preach, I only use the original languages. I don't use an English translation. I translate it live myself. I have taught both
02:21:22
Greek and Hebrew on the graduate level. And so I'm considered a scholar of both languages. So, I try to do that.
02:21:30
If I am using an English translation, I generally use either the New American Standard Bible, upon which
02:21:35
I worked as a critical consultant, or the English Standard Version of the Bible. Both of those are based upon the same
02:21:42
Greek and Hebrew texts. So, if I were to use a parallel, the issue for Muslims would be if you had multiple critical editions of the
02:21:52
Quran and you had English translations of different versions, then you would have different issues to look at.
02:21:59
You don't have a critical edition of the Quran as yet. All you have is the 1924 edition from Cairo, which was not produced by the comparison of manuscripts.
02:22:08
There are numerous manuscripts that read differently than the 1924. You're shaking your head. I can document this beyond question, and many
02:22:15
Muslim scholars have documented this beyond question. But the point would be, you have different translations of the
02:22:22
Quran that vary in how they render particular Arabic phrases. Yes, you do. Look at the study of Quran in comparison to Shakir or any others.
02:22:32
Sorry, excuse me. Which is the right Bible? And I gave you the answer.
02:22:39
The Bible is written in Greek and Hebrew. You tell me the name of the Bible. You're asking for an
02:22:44
English translation. You tell me the proper English translation of the Quran. Can I ask you, please can we get some order?
02:22:51
Thank you. Thank you for the question. For anyone with ears to hear,
02:22:57
I answered that question very clearly. Thank you. Do you have a question for Mr.
02:23:04
Karim? Last question for Mr. Karim. Hello Mr.
02:23:10
Karim. Thank you for this opportunity to get... Hello Mr.
02:23:16
Karim. Thank you for the opportunity that I get to ask you this question. While you were talking in the beginning, you said that Islam is a religion of peace.
02:23:28
And obviously, if you're saying that, then can you explain to me what the
02:23:36
Quran says in the Quran chapter 4 verse 34. Can I read it in English?
02:23:43
It says men are in charge of women by what
02:23:49
Allah has given one over the other and what they spend from their wealth.
02:23:56
So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in husbands, absence what
02:24:04
Allah, sorry, guarding in, absence what Allah would have them guard, but those whom you fear arrogance, advise them, forsake them in bed, and strike them, but if they obey you, seek no means against them, indeed
02:24:23
Allah is ever exalted and granted. So my question is, if the
02:24:30
Quran says you must strike a woman and it's a religion of peace, firstly, where does Jesus teach that in the
02:24:36
Bible, if? Thank you. I think we've got the gist of your question. Mr.
02:24:41
Karim. Where does
02:24:48
Jesus prohibit men from beating their wives? Alright. Let me answer this question within the text of the
02:24:55
Quran. What I advise the lady to do, my chief of operations,
02:25:02
Sabir, make sure that she gets the last issue on the beating of the woman. I did a complete article on that on this verse.
02:25:09
Now if you look at the Quran, so in other words, ar -rijal, all men, this verse is not restricted to Muslim men, and people fail to understand with the
02:25:19
Quran. The Quran says, O people who believe, O people of the book, and it talks about the
02:25:28
Christians, and it talks about the Jews, and this verse does not refer to Muslim men, it's all men.
02:25:34
But now let me ask you a question. Did Muslim men during the lifetime of the
02:25:40
Prophet beat the wives? Did the pre -Islamic Arabs beat the wives during their lifetime? Did men beat the wives during the time of Moses?
02:25:48
Did these people beat the wives? Yes, they were beating the wives. So now why will God give us permission to beat our wives, which they were already doing?
02:25:57
This verse, if you read my article, it will show you how Allah is showing men, not all men,
02:26:03
Muslim men, Christian men, Jewish men, Hindu men, how not to beat your wife. Get that article, read it.
02:26:11
It's a six -page article, but it's worth every word. Trust me, you will read it.
02:26:16
Thank you. Thank you very much,
02:26:23
Mr. Karim. Ladies and gentlemen, we've come to the close of that question and answer session.
02:26:32
Unfortunately, gentlemen, we cannot entertain your questions. We're running quite late already, it's now quarter to eleven, and the speakers are quite late.
02:26:42
We're now going to sum up. There will be a closing argument of ten minutes by Mr.
02:26:50
Ayub Karim first, and then by Dr. White. Mr. Ayub Karim. I would like to begin my summation.
02:27:11
First of all, I ask
02:27:18
Dr. James White and Rudolf that if I said anything tonight, or did anything that would have hurt your feelings,
02:27:28
I apologise. To the Christian audience as well, if I said, when answering my question, or during my talk, if I said something that you felt bad with,
02:27:36
I apologise. The reason being, I am too passionate about my work, and that is why sometimes you may think
02:27:43
I'm coming on too strong. My apologies to each and every one of you here, Muslim and Christian, Dr.
02:27:49
James White and Rudolf. Now let me begin my summation. Those that worship
02:27:56
Christ are referred to as Christians, belonging to a religion which they now call
02:28:02
Christianity. By extension of that logic, the Westerners' logic, they believe that we worship
02:28:09
Muhammad, so they called us, initially, a hundred years ago, they called us Mohammedans, and we belong, according to them, to a religion
02:28:19
Mohammedanism. The Prophet Noah did not preach
02:28:24
Noahism. The Prophet Abraham did not preach Abrahamism. Moses did not preach
02:28:30
Mosesism, nor did he preach Judaism. Prophet David did not preach Davidism, neither did
02:28:36
Prophet Solomon preach Solomonism. Jesus Christ did not preach
02:28:42
Christianity, and most certainly Muhammad, peace be upon him, did not preach Mohammedanism.
02:28:49
We believe, according to the Quran, that all the Prophets of God Almighty, starting right down, starting right up from Noah, coming right down to Jesus Christ and the
02:28:58
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them all, that what they preached was you must submit your will to the command of God, submit your will to the will of God.
02:29:11
And one word for that in the Arabic language is Islam. So we believe that all the
02:29:16
Prophets, yes, including Jesus Christ, preached Islam. Nothing different from all the
02:29:22
Prophets. I do not believe a God who is consistent with himself will give one religion, one religion, one and all of a sudden, overnight, make a switch after 2000 years and say, now, not that anymore, this is what you have.
02:29:34
A complete change of dispensation. Then God is not consistent with himself. Like you know, you go read in the
02:29:41
Bible that God regretted that he created man and God regretted that he destroyed all the people in the floods.
02:29:48
My question is, what kind of God is this that he goes into regrets? Look at Allah in the
02:29:54
Quran. Absolutely different. I am a Muslim, meaning one who submits my will to the will of God.
02:30:03
We belong to a religion of all the Prophets. The difference is that we
02:30:08
Muslims belong to a religion of Jesus Christ. Christians, we believe,
02:30:17
Christianity, we believe, is a religion about Jesus Christ. That is the difference.
02:30:24
You read the Quran, you will get in touch with the religion of Jesus Christ. You read the
02:30:30
Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, then you come across a religion about Jesus Christ.
02:30:36
And that is the fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity. In the
02:30:46
Quran, Allah questions us. God Almighty is questioning the reader of the Quran. And if you are a
02:30:52
Christian and you are reading the Quran, and I would like you to get a copy of the Quran, you write to us, email me at info at ikra .co
02:31:00
.za. Go on to my website and apply for a Quran and I will send you one of this
02:31:09
Yusuf Ali translation, free of charge, no question asked, all you have to do is send me an email, request it.
02:31:16
I will send it to you. This is a promise to every Christian and every Muslim seated in the hall today.
02:31:23
Write to me, I'll give you a copy, free of charge. So, the Quran questions.
02:31:29
Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Arabic Thank you
02:35:53
Mr. Karim. Dr. White you may now go ahead. Well thank you very much especially to all of you who have lasted to the very bitter end.
02:36:13
And the warm end as well. Isn't it supposed to be winter here? I'm a little confused. Yeah thanks for that.
02:36:21
I would like to thank Ayub for being here this evening and engaging in this dialogue,
02:36:29
I brought a classic of Christian writing called Pilgrim's Progress, which is a tremendous allegory of the
02:36:39
Christian life. I don't know if he has it in his library. You might find it to be very interesting reading, so I wanted to give that to him this evening as well.
02:36:53
Now, I would like to submit to you, the audience, since you're the judges, that the texts that I presented in my opening statement have not been refuted on any level whatsoever, exegetically, historically, logically, systematic theology, whatever it might be.
02:37:13
Jesus taught he was divine, Jesus taught he was eternal, he taught he was the son of God, and that he came to die upon the cross and rise again.
02:37:23
As far as the debate thesis is concerned, did Jesus teach Christianity or Islam?
02:37:29
Given that he specifically taught things that the Muslim Jesus could never teach, and that everything that's been pointed to that you think is consistent with Islam is consistent with what we believe when you take all of Scripture into consideration,
02:37:43
I believe that the thesis of tonight's debate has been clearly decided, but there's some unfinished business.
02:37:51
For example, it was said in the rebuttal period that just because someone says they are God does not make them
02:37:56
God. That's not why we quote John 20, 28. We all here believe that Jesus was a prophet, and if Jesus was addressed as my
02:38:05
Lord and my God, then he would have been under obligation to refute and reject that description as Thomas gave it to him.
02:38:15
He did not. He identified it as faith. That's the relevance of John 20, 28.
02:38:20
And you have to either reject that Jesus was a prophet of God, or do what
02:38:26
I think most Muslims do, which is simply reject that John 20, 28 is true without any basis. If you're going to quote from John 14 and try to turn the
02:38:34
Holy Spirit into Muhammad, you have no basis for rejecting John chapter 20. They're the same book, and they're transmitted in the exact same manuscripts.
02:38:44
We were also told that we all existed in John 17, 5.
02:38:50
That's not what Jesus said, and we didn't all exist. What Jesus said was, Father, glorify me which the glory
02:38:58
I had, not a thought about me, not knowledge about me, which I had in your presence before the world began.
02:39:07
That's one person talking to another person about them both being glorious in eternity past.
02:39:13
That has nothing to do with God's foreknowledge. That was a horrific misrepresentation of what
02:39:18
John 17, 5 is about, because the Muslim Jesus could never say the words of John 17, 5, because that's not what you believe.
02:39:25
But the point is, the author of the Quran had never seen John 17, 5 either. That is the key issue.
02:39:32
Of course, we had Psalm 22 brought up before, and very, very briefly, let me once again point out, when
02:39:39
Jesus says, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani, he's quoting Psalm 22, verse 1.
02:39:47
And if you read the rest of Psalm 22, it is the most messianic psalm in all the
02:39:52
Psalter. And it is a prophecy of his crucifixion, of his being nailed to a cross, of his clothes being parted out by lot.
02:40:01
And the most important thing is, it's also a prophecy of the fact that he would be justified and victorious.
02:40:09
So by quoting the first words of a song that everybody who heard him knew what it was, he was bringing to mind that reality.
02:40:18
It does not deny his deity, it demonstrates he knew the scriptures, the prophecies were about him, and he would be raised from the dead, and he was.
02:40:28
That's what Psalm 22 is about. Then, fascinatingly enough, we had a citation at one point from John chapter 8.
02:40:39
It was in passing, but it is a famous statement from the Lord Jesus where he said, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
02:40:48
And it was quoted approvingly by Ayyub in his comments. There's a problem that there's a context there.
02:40:56
And before this, Jesus had looked at the Jews who were no farther away from him than you are from me, in fact, even closer.
02:41:02
And he had said, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.
02:41:10
And the phrase he used there, I am, is the same term that's used in the Old Testament as a name for God, Ego Aime, the very name of God.
02:41:19
And he said, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins. Another text that the
02:41:24
Islamic Jesus could never say, but that was said before these
02:41:30
Jews said to Jesus, that's pretty good. We like what you're saying. And Jesus said to them, if you continue in my words, then you're my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
02:41:45
If you continue in my words, not just the words of God, my words, he identifies his words and the words of God as being coterminous, they're the same thing.
02:41:55
The Islamic Jesus doesn't speak like that. And as soon as he says, you shall be set free, they rebel, they're like, we don't need to be set free, you're offending us, why should we need to be set free?
02:42:07
And the conversation gets warmer and warmer, and eventually that's what leads to them saying, who do you make yourself out to be?
02:42:17
You're not even 50 years old, you've seen the days of Abraham, because Jesus said, Abraham saw my day and rejoiced and was glad.
02:42:23
How did Abraham see Jesus' day? He saw it because in Genesis 18 and 19,
02:42:30
Yahweh walked with Abraham, and that Yahweh was Jesus. Genesis 18 and 19, check it out.
02:42:39
Yahweh on earth rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah from Yahweh in heaven. That's what it says.
02:42:45
That's when Abraham saw Jesus' day, and the Jews understood exactly what he was saying. How can you have seen
02:42:51
Abraham? You're not yet 50 years old. You know what Jesus said? P 'r 'n 'abra 'am g 'nestai ego 'aymi, before Abraham was,
02:42:57
I am. You know what the Jews did? Before I tell you, when you hear what
02:43:06
Jesus says, what are you going to do with him? What are you going to do with him? Because the
02:43:12
Jews picked up stones to stone him. They rejected him. They would not accept it.
02:43:19
Oh, they wouldn't have minded if the Messiah had been able to raise people from the dead and do all sorts of miracles, but here's the problem.
02:43:28
Jesus was a lot more than they expected. And when Jesus identified himself with the very divine name, that's not the only time he did it.
02:43:40
Remember in the garden when the soldiers came to arrest him? He said, who are you seeking? What did
02:43:46
Jesus say to them? They said, they said, Jesus of Nazareth. What was Jesus' response?
02:43:52
Ego 'aymi, I am. And what happened? They fell back on the ground. They fell back on the ground.
02:44:00
Why do soldiers fall back upon the ground when they're in the presence of the very divine name itself and it's uttered in their face?
02:44:12
Jesus used that term also in John 13, 19. He quoted from a text about Jehovah God, Yahweh, and applied it to himself in John 13, 19 on the night of his betrayal.
02:44:22
The Muslim Jesus couldn't do any of that. He couldn't say any of those words. That decides the debate, but the debate is just tonight.
02:44:31
Tonight the question is what is each of you going to do with this
02:44:37
Jesus that you may have never heard of before? Because the Jesus of the Koran, the author of the
02:44:42
Koran knew nothing of any of this. Never heard of any of it. Never heard of any of it. Never makes reference to it, doesn't try to refute it.
02:44:49
It's nowhere to be found. But if you'll just read the Gospels, if you'll just step back and read, you'll see that the
02:44:59
Jesus of the New Testament, and this goes all the way back to the very beginning. This goes back to the first century.
02:45:07
This isn't something that was made up hundreds of years later. We have scraps of manuscripts going all the way back to that time period.
02:45:13
The Jesus of the New Testament says, I am, and he also says, come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
02:45:27
You have to put those two together. Jesus is so much greater than any of our conceptions of him, but he says to you, if your heart is weary, if you want peace with God, there is one way, and it's
02:45:42
Jesus Christ, the risen Lord of glory, who is King of kings and Lord of lords, but he also says, come, and I will give you rest.
02:45:51
Thank you for being here this evening. Ladies and gentlemen, we've finally reached the end of our program, and in closing,
02:46:11
I'd like to extend our vote of thanks to Dr.
02:46:17
James White for presenting himself here at this debate, Brother Rudolph, and on behalf of the
02:46:26
Islamic Comparative Religion Academy, and Mr. Karim, I'd like to thank each and every one of you for your presence here today.
02:46:35
Great audience, may God bless, and may almighty guide us all through the straight path.
02:46:45
I would further like to thank Iqra and Mr. Ayub Karim and the staff of Islamic Comparative Religion Academy for putting together this event and enlightening us on information that many of us have generally taken for granted or perhaps never knew of before.