Matt Slick Live: June 17, 2024

The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network.

It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm .org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers.

Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everyone, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. I am your host today. You're listening to Matt Slick Live on this nice date of June 17th, 2024. If you want, you can give me a call if you dare do that, 877 -207 -2276.

Reformed Theology, Election, and God’s Sovereign Choice

All right, so I got two things to talk about, all right? One is I just had a conversation on Reformed Theology with a guy on the Internet. And I was kind of tired, you know. I need to be waking up. Man it worked.

And this guy, oh man, he was talking stuff. Anyway, I'm going to get to the short point. And I quoted this verse, okay? I quoted a verse where God's talking. He says, I've sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquities of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.

And I asked this guy, so did Jesus die for everybody? And he actually said I was speaking the words of the devil. I said, dude, that's what God said. I just quoted it. That's your interpretation. I go, no, it's not.

So it was pretty bad. But wow. All right, well that was interesting. But something else is interesting here. So yesterday, the Roman Catholic Church has been on my heart a lot. I don't know what it is, Roman Catholics.

I don't know why, but it's just, it's there. So, Father's Day, Father's Day, guess what Matt Slick does for Father's Day? Does he go have a steak with his wife and the kids? Well, the kids all moved out and we did have steak last night.

But I go, hey, hon, I'm going to go to the Catholic Church and listen. And so I did. And you know, she looks at me with that weird expression she kind of develops about me when I want to go do something.

I said, what? And she goes, that's your thing. And I said, yes, it is. And so I said, yeah, I could just, you know, just see you talking to your girlfriends, you know. And what does your husband do for entertainment?

She goes, he's got issues. So at any rate, that's what she said. Now, so I went to this service last night and I wanted to see, I'm going to do it again. I wanted to see what's going on. And so I got, I thought my notes were right up here in the front, but I was wrong.

I had to do a search for them. And so I took notes during the entire service. I did. It was the mass. Okay. They stood up, sit down. I didn't do any of that. I just, I was on my phone, my fold out phone, and I was just typing stuff out and keeping notes of what was going on.

And so I'm going to go through a little bit of them where I can find them here real fast. And I'll tell you what, it was interesting. It was interesting. Now, hold on, let's see, let's see right there.

There we go. Video notes. That's right. There we go. Okay. Got it. So it was about 200 people there, all right? And there was a procession of people. They had the Bible held up high and they were dressed in, I don't know, I'm not trying to mock it like that, but I guess altar, go to the altar garments.

I don't know. And so they placed the Bible up on the altar. Then they had a ceremony of statements with the people all reciting things in unison at particular intervals. And so they would stand up and sometimes stand up, sometimes sit.

And they would say something, the priest or whoever would say something. And I'm not trying to be flippant about this. I'm just saying this is taking notes as best I could. And the people would just recite something, just say something all together in unison.

Then there was a song, contemporary style. Then there was a prayer. Then they read from Ezekiel. And I'm thinking, if I remember correctly, it's about five minutes. They talked about it just a little bit out of Ezekiel.

And then there's a song by a young girl. And I think she was singing scripture, but it was hard to hear because my hearing isn't as good as it used to be. The people would respond at a pause and sing, Lord, it is good to give thanks to you.

They do it in a monotone. And then she'd sing. And they kept doing this. Then another girl or the same girl got up and recited 2 Corinthians 5, 8 in the context and absolutely brought you home with the Lord.

And then when she finished, the people recited something again. And because everybody's doing it all at once, it's hard for me to distinguish the sound because I've told people I have hearing problems.

I have a hearing loss. So it's just what it is. And then another song, people singing during this time, people with candles. And then a guy holding the Bible walked up to the altar. They're doing candles up there.

And he read from God's word about the gospel. Now, this was interesting because he read about the gospel related to the seed bearing fruit. And then people responded. Then they sat down. The priest then preached, but he had a foreign accent.

And I'm not knocking that. It just made it more difficult for me to understand. And so I wanted to take notes. And I'm not knocking that. It's just what it was. So it's hard to understand. People stood up and everyone recited, our father, et cetera.

And I think they recited this Apostle's Creed. Okay, so this went on like this. Okay, I'm going to keep going a little bit here. Hold on to my throat. Hold on one second. All right, so then they were preparing for the mass.

They had more music. Priest held up the wafer, held up the cup, and prayed. And this is what's interesting, is as he held it up, and they were doing this thing at one point during this whole thing. Wait a minute, they did another song, standing.

Then they all kneeled. That's right. Everyone, while the priest kept praying, they talked about the body and blood of Christ, prepping them to receive it. Hold up the wafer, and he quoted scripture. Hold up the cup, and quoted scripture.

And the bell rang when he did that. And I don't know what it is. I'm assuming that's when the bread was changed into the body, and the wine is literally changed into the blood. That's what I'm assuming, okay, because it had more.

They did another song. Then he talked about Christ and the continual living sacrifice. He mentioned Mary, the mother of God. And what was interesting is that I was sitting on the aisle, and almost at the very back, and looking.

And Jesus is on a cross, suspended up way high. And to the front left, from my view, is a big statue of Mary with Jesus as a little baby in her arms. So she's up there, not up there where the altar is, but she's up there towards it, and looking towards it.

And people would go up, and put things on it, and genuflect, and kneel. And they would kneel before they would go sit down in the pews. And they finally stood up from kneeling after a while, and another song.

Then the priest broke the wafer in half. The priest kneeled, lifted it up, and the priest drank. He gave the elements of the people who were up there, dressed in, I guess, the altar garments. Again, not trying to mock it, I'm just saying that's what it was.

And people then walked up forward to receive it in places in church, in order to receive the elements. And I was lip reading, and this one woman I could see was saying, behold the body and blood of Christ.

And it went on like this, okay? So stand up, sit down, a lot of that, and then there was applause. Everyone stand for a blessing, and music, another contemporary Protestant song, the stuff we would sing.

And they were excused, knelt down on the pew. Yeah, okay, and that's what happened, all right? So I skipped some stuff, but that's basically it. And what I noticed was, there wasn't any real, there wasn't any preaching or teaching that I could hear that dealt with trusting in Christ, looking to Jesus.

It wasn't anything like that. What I saw was ritual, was pomp, ceremony, stand up, sit down, kneel, sit down, recite, sit down, do the thing, do the ritual. And the word of God is put in there, and at different places, it's broken up.

And there was no sermon exegeting scripture, and then tying it into the need to look to Christ. But no, it was the Eucharist. Everything is about that Eucharist, getting ready for receiving the body of blood, because that's where you're going to be saved.

That's where your sins, hopefully, will be taken care of there. And so anyway, I wrote a post on Facebook. It's had 155 comments. And I'm going to do some more. I'm going to walk around the block today, and what the heck is that?

Look at that over there. Oh, I know what that is, that's interesting. So I'm going to walk around the block and do some more video about this. But people are really responding to it, because most people are saying, yeah, it's bad, and I'm going to tell you, it's bad.

And I know what Catholicism teaches, and I know it teaches a false gospel, and it does, and it promotes idolatry. And I would love to sit with those priests and just ask them direct questions and see what they would have to say.

I don't think it's going to happen. But that was my idea of a good time. A lot of guys, their idea of a good time is to watch a game. You know, forget that, I'm going to go to the Catholic church. In fact, I might go again this week, just for another service, just so I can sit back and take more notes and stuff.

Because I study it theologically, I study it from their books, but I've never been a Catholic, and no, I was not molested or beat up by a Catholic, it's nothing like that. It's just that I've studied their doctrines and read, I don't know, hundreds of hours of material and stuff, and boy, it is bad, it's bankrupt.

It is, it's not Christian. The Roman Catholic Church is apostate false Christianity. Let's get to Matt from North Carolina. Matt, welcome, you're on the air. Hi Matt, how you doing, man? I'm doing okay, hanging in there, just talking smack about a false religion.

What do you got, man?

God’s Choice, Human Depravity, and Predestination

I'm a Calvinist, and I believe in predestination. God chose us before the foundation of the world. God grants that we come to him. In these two areas, did God choose, I mean, did God choose us because he saw our love in him?

No. Didn't he? Not at all. Nope. Okay. See I was just, I mean, I had that question, it was on my mind. That's okay.

Let me go here, I'm gonna read you something, okay? This is James chapter two, starting at verse two. Now, there's a principle here. For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, and you pay special attention to the one who's wearing the fine clothes, and you say, you sit here in a good place, and you say to the poor man, you stand over there, or sit down by my footstool.

Have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil motives? And so this idea here is interesting because this is talking about people, and we know that righteousness reflects the character of God.

So we are not to judge people by their skin color, their wealth, their height, their gender. We're not to look at how many cars do they have, how big's the bank account, how big's the house, and judge them as worthy or not worthy of whatever, based on those things.

That's prejudicial, and it's sinful. Now, some people would say that God's gonna look into the future, and he's going to pick the ones who will choose him. Now, there's a problem, there's two problems there.

One is, then God's choice depends upon man's choice, and that's not how it works. God makes his choices before we were born, and that's what the Bible says. He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we'd be holy and blameless.

Well, people don't like that. What they want is people, what they want is to say, no, God has to know the goodness of my heart and the goodness of other people's hearts. That's why he picks them. And they reject the idea that God is the sovereign king.

They reject that, they want their own sovereign king. And so, that's one problem. Let me get back, and I'll show you another problem, and then we can talk a little bit more, okay? So hold on, buddy. Hey, folks, if you wanna give me a call, it's 877 -207 -2276.

I'll be right back, please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, and welcome back to the show. If you wanna give me a call, all I have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276. Matt, welcome, you're on the air, buddy. Yeah, I'm back. All right, now, the second reason this is a problem, is the idea that God looks and chooses, and all those are gonna serve him and choose him, is that the Bible says that the unbeliever is a slave of sin, Romans 6, 14 through 20, a hater of God who does no good, Romans 3, 10, 11, or 12.

He's dead in his sins, Ephesians 2, 1, and is by nature a child of wrath, Ephesians 2, 3. And his heart's desperately wicked and deceitful, Jeremiah 17, 9, and he cannot receive spiritual things, 1 Corinthians 2, 14.

So there isn't any reality to the idea that he'll look into the future to see who will pick him, nobody will. This is why the Bible says that God grants that we have faith, Philippians 1, 29, and Jesus says in John 6, 45, or excuse me, John 6, 65, he says, you cannot come to me unless it's granted to you from the Father.

1 Peter 1, 3 says, God caused us to be born again. We're born again not of our own will, John 1, 13. This is stuff people don't like, but that's what it says, okay? All right, all right. Thank you, man.

My thanks for trying to look for me. Okay, and just remember, study God's word. Look to what God's word says. And everything that I say, you must just take with a grain of salt, okay? Always look to God's word, all right?

All right, thank you, Matt. Okay, God bless, buddy. All right. So hey, folks, we have no, excuse me, nobody waiting right now. If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276.

I want to hear from you, give me a call. You can also email me, and that's easy to do. Just email to, let's see, that would be info at carm .org, info at carm .org. And just put in the subject line, radio comment or radio questions, and then we can get to your stuff.

Okay, pretty easy to do, right? Yes. All right, there you go. So let's see. By the way, I'm just going to say this, that I have Facebook pages and stuff, Matt Slick and Facebook and also carm .org. And so during the break, I put some more stuff up on Facebook on Matt Slick.

I think it's Matt Slick page. You can follow and you can see. I've already got well over 5 ,000, well, I got 5 ,000 is the limit. And I hit that a long time ago. So anyway, what I think I'll do now is, oh, that's right.

Thanks for reminding me, Laura. Thank you, I appreciate that. Okay, this Friday, I'm not going to be on the air. I'm going to be driving down to Salt Lake City. So it'll be a recorded show on Friday. And I'm going to be in a debate with Andrew Rappaport on Saturday evening at 6 p .m. and it will be at the Utah Christian Research Center.

And so I'll be debating with him on the issue of the charismatic gifts. Are they for today? I say, yes, they are. He says, no, they're not. Now, he and I are friends. It'll be an interesting discussion.

We'll insult each other because we do, you know, we're friends. But if you want information on it, you can go to utahchristianresearchcenter .com. It's all one word, no spaces, no hyphens. Utah Christian Research Center.

So utahchristianresearchcenter .com. And I'll give the address out here if you want to write it down or record something. But it's all there on that website. And Andrew's going to be there, I think, Thursday and Friday night doing some teaching or something like that.

I may get there in time to see him on Friday. And if I do, then I'll just stand in the back and mock him or, you know, when he says something, I'll slap my forehead and shake my head. You know, just good stuff like that.

So the address is 579 Galena Park Place. Galena is G-A-L-E-N-A Park Place, suite 101 in Draper, Utah or Utah. And the phone number there is 385 -237 -3649. I think I got to put that up on the debate thing.

I'll do that maybe during the break. I do so many things during the break and stuff like that. So there you go, Utah Christian Research Center. Let's see what happens when I click on that and it's opening up.

It's really nice. It's nicely set up what they've done. They did a great job. And there's Bill McKeever on the front and he's a good guy. I hope he does not hear me say that because, you know, I don't want to get his head puffed up.

But he's a good guy. And so is Eric Johnson. Yeah, they're great guys. So there you go, utahchristianresearchcenter .com and that'll be everything you need right there. All right, if you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276.

I want to hear from you. Give me a call, please. And we can blab. All right, be careful, Matt. This guy, what, I'm not sure what, I'm looking at the, oh, I see. Okay, good, looking at the chat room. And that reminds me, if you want to volunteer, not volunteer, but if you want to join us in the chat, we have some great people in there and we have a lot of fun.

So that's, that's easy to do. Just go to rumble .com, rumble .com, forward slash Matt to slick live. All one word, no hyphens, and you can, you can check it out right there and be interested. Okay, so what I'm going to do now is get to some of the questions because we have nobody waiting right now.

Get to some of the questions, radio questions that have been sent in. And we'll see if we can answer some of them. All right, here we go. Let's see. Yeah, Ronald Reagan, Jew, talked to that last week.

How can a church say they lean Arminian when they preach all the election and predestination verses? I don't know. You have to see what that particular church is doing and how they're interpreting things.

Because I was talking to a guy just a little bit ago, an hour-ish ago. He was so rude and condescending. Oh, man. And he was really bad. And so people will, what they'll do is they'll say predestination election and then they redefine it in some weird way.

And then that's how they do it, I guess. At any rate. So let's see. How about this? Moses saw the form of God. Yes, he did. You can go to Exodus 24, 9 through 11 for that. Moses, Aaron, Native, and Abihu, and 70 of the elders of Israel went up and they saw the God of Israel.

And under his feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet he did not stretch out his hands against the sons of the nobles of Israel. They beheld God and they drank.

You also go to Numbers 12, 6 through 8, where God says, if there's a prophet among you, I, the Lord, want to make myself known to him in a visionary dream, not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my household, and with him I speak openly and not in dark sayings that he beholds the form of the Lord.

That's what it says right there. You can go check it out. That was, I mean, Numbers 12, 2 through 6, 6 through 8, 6 through 8, okay. Let's get to Todd from Philly. Hey, Todd, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt, thanks for giving me the opportunity to call in here. First of all, I just want to say I'm kind of new to the apologetic space, and definitely your debates and everything you have over at Khan has been a big help.

So I just definitely just want to say thank you for all that you've been doing over the past 40 years, really. Amen. Oh, hey, hold on. There's a break. There's a music. So hold on, buddy.

Okay. And we'll get back after the break. All right. There's the timing there. All right. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. If you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276. We'll be right back.

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, and welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276. Let's get back on the air with Todd from Philly. Hey, Todd, welcome. You're on the air.

The Meaning of Monogenēs and Eternal Generation

Yep. Yep. Thanks for having me again, Matt. Yeah. So I'm a Trinitarian and kind of one of the things that I've been curious about recently, kind of how should I understand this word monogamy because kind of like the way that I've taught it to my Sunday school kids is the idea that, you know, the father and the son have always existed co-eternally alongside with each other, but then I was actually having a conversation with one of my friends who was saying, well, no, no, you should actually explain it as the son was actually brought forth of the father.

So I was always wondering, well, the term monogamy from what I've studied kind of just means unique and one of a kind. So I was always of the mind that there was at no point where the father physically, you know, he got Jesus, but maybe I should be thinking of it a little bit differently.

So I thought I would call in and get your opinion on that.

All right. So monogamy is used in John 3, 16, only begotten mono and from good now to beget only begotten. Now, there's a diphthong form that occurs when you have in Greek two words that the first one ends with a vowel and the next one begins with a vowel and then they're merged together.

It's called a diphthong. And then there's a rule to how the vowels combine to get a different vowel or sometimes one of the two vowels. And this occurs with only begotten. It also occurs with unique. The word only begotten is a diphthong form and it's spelled the same way as the word unique.

So it's like a pun going on in the Greek. All right, whatever. So one of the issues here we have to understand in divine simplicity is this. So let me lay down the foundation here. Divine simplicity is a teaching that God himself exists as a simple thing.

The simple one thing is a trinity that the trinity has always existed as a single thing. Always. This is the nature of God called divine simplicity. There was no time when God was not a trinity. There's no condition in which he was not a trinity.

If someone says that the son is brought forth, then we have some issues to say that the son proceeds from the father. And there's been a lot of debate about this, the eternal procession. And then there's logical issues that go with it.

Let's see if I can work through this without making it too complicated. So it seems to be in one sense that the son and the spirit are brought forth from the father, yet at the same time, they're eternal.

And these statements are interesting. So let me step sideways and talk about logical versus temporal procession or priority. So the illustration I use is a light bulb with electricity. So in temporal priority, we flip the switch, electricity goes into the light bulb, and in this case, five seconds later, light appears.

That would be temporal priority with electricity is there a duration of time occurs and then something new is there. The light that's called temporal priority. Logical priority is different. Logical priority is this, that when the electricity is in the light bulb, they're both simultaneous.

They are at the same time. One is not temporally before the other, but one is logically prior. What we mean by that is, though they are simultaneous, the electricity is the cause of the light. And so therefore, we would say that electricity is logically prior, even though temporally they're simultaneous.

Makes sense so far. Yeah, I got you. OK, so some of the discussions about the doctrine, the Trinity and the procession of the sun deals with what I believe or I understand to be logical priority. So. There's issues with this as well, but it's the idea that the nature of God has always been that the father is the procedure where the son is is a procession and the spirit is spirated, the breathing forth.

I don't like to get into these very much. Because I think it's too dangerous philosophically and theologically, because I think it's possible to end up in some errors. So. Some have stated the idea that the eternal nature of God is that the son and the spirit were brought forth from the father, but they were always existing.

How does that work? I don't know. What I like to believe is this, that in the divine simplicity of the Trinity, God has always existed as one simple thing, the Trinitarian thing, the Trinitarian nature.

There was never a time when God was not Trinitarian. Now, how that works inside the Trinity. I stay away from it. I don't want to get too close. Because I don't want to accidentally say something that's not right about God.

So I say, if there's a procession, which the Bible talks about it, but then there's the issue of what does it mean? This is not an easy topic. What does it mean by procession? So. In John 8, 42, Jesus says, if God were your father, you would love me for I proceeded forth and have come from God.

OK, well, what does that mean? Well, did he proceed forth in the human sense? Did he proceed forth in the being sent sense? Did he proceed forth from the eternal sense? Well, that can have two meanings as well, because in the early and in the anti-Trinitarian, I mean, in the eternal Trinitarian essence, it could have always been decided that the son would be the one who would proceed from heaven to earth to be incarnate.

And so we could have the eternal procession could be understood that way. OK, some have said from that eternal nature that the son was proceeded and brought forth eternally in the beginning from eternity past.

I don't understand what they mean by that, because when I read stuff like this and I've read this years ago, I get lots of questions. How does it what sense? How does this work? Because there's different ways you can understand this.

OK, so it's difficult. All right. So the reason I'm bringing this up is not to confuse you. I don't want to confuse you. But it's not an easy topic. It deals with the inner workings of the eternal trinity.

And I think we need to be careful. And so my summary is simple. God is one simple thing. Trinitarian. He's always been Trinitarian. The father sent the son, the father and son send the Holy Spirit. The sending has always been in place eternally.

And it was ratified and materialized in our world. So God eternally existed Trinitarian. They'll ish to really mess up a word there. But we perceive him as three distinct simultaneous co-eternal persons.

But God himself is one being who ultimately has one mind, one soul, one substance. Yet that one substance is three persons. And so you can see how this is just not easy. You see what I'm saying?

Yeah. Yeah, I got that. I got that. So just real quick, though. So when we use the term eternally begotten, does that just refer to the idea that the father had always eternally decreed that the son would be the one.

Or is there something different that I'm missing there?

Yes, that's that's right. You're on the right track. Which is it? And some call it the eternal generation of the son. So I've written an article on this, and it's a teaching that the son is eternally begotten by the necessary will of the father.

But if the son is not created or caused and that neither the son nor the Holy Spirit is dependent upon the father or any other member of the Godhead for existence, the eternal generation of the son is a statement on the relationship within the Trinity between the father and the son before the incarnation.

Therefore, the term is not in reference to causation, but to nature and relationship. The eternal generation of the son must be understood to mean that the father did not bring the son into existence, which would deny the full immutability and deity of the son, et cetera.

OK, I wrote that, wrote that ten years ago.

So, OK, yeah, definitely give that a read. Thanks so much, Matt. I really appreciate it.

OK, man. Yeah, it's just it's a tough one. And I got more complicated and really kind of needed to be. But I what I did when I wrote that article, I remember really researching it. And I have quotes from different sources, outlines in theology by Hodge, by Dabney, by Roberts.

We've got antithesis in this and that. So I went in and and did that. And so, Mike, my recommendation is is don't really go much beyond what's written there and don't try and solve anything because, well, we're just finite.

We can't really do that. You know, get as close as you can and just say, well, the rest I don't get. That's OK. All right. I got you. All right. Thanks again, Matt. Definitely. God bless you in your ministry.

Hey, man, thanks. God bless, buddy. OK, well, that was Todd. That's a good question. Really was a good question. One of the deep ones. And hey, we have three open lines, 877 -207 -2276. We'll be right back.

Please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right. And welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, all I have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276. So who said that? Joanne says, I'd like to hear Matt laugh. People have told me my laugh is infectious.

I don't know if it is or not, but.

Salvation as a Process and the Eastern Orthodox View

OK, Elijah. Hey, welcome, man. You're on the air. Hey, Matt, my question today is out of First Corinthians 118. I saw a debate recently on, I think it was standing for truth, if I remember correctly. And and the Orthodox guy's position was that well, actually, this is a live stream and an Orthodox guy joined in.

And basically, his position is that salvation is a process. While, you know, Donnie's position is that salvation is instantaneous. And and so so this is the verse that he brought up to prove his point.

But then a guy that was on Donnie's team brought up the King James version, which says it says that those who are saved, but but all the other translations say those who are being saved. And so and so, you know, his point was that these different King James versus all the other translations, you know, you'll come out with different doctrines.

So what's like what is your thoughts on this?

OK, so that's called a perfect passive participle. OK, in the Greek present, it's going to be present past, not perfect, present passive participle, present tense, passive means it's happening to them and participle means an ongoing action.

I N G word. So the best translation is they are being saved. Now, the phrase being saved does not necessitate a process of individuals who earn salvation, maintain salvation or regain salvation. It's not about any individual doing more and more to end up being saved versus speaking about all kinds of people being saved.

Some are saved one day and more being saved the next day and so on. And that's what's going on there. The false teaching of the Eastern Orthodox guy is because I know what they teach. And Eastern Orthodoxy also preaches a false gospel, the same as Roman Catholicism, because what they're teaching is that salvation, both of them are teaching salvation is a process.

And what it mean? And I'll generically blend the wording for both of them. You have to do stuff in ceremonies and attitudes and stuff in order to become Christ like more and more to eventually get saved, to eventually make it.

And it's a false gospel. Both those churches are preaching a false gospel, a gospel that cannot save them. OK. All right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good, good, good point. And not long after I had watched it, I had I had thought of this rebuttal to say to Catholics or Orthodox who say that Protestants should join one of their churches because because because they can trace their churches back to the apostolic age.

And and my rebuttal would be and you can tell me what you think about it. My rebuttal would be that. OK, OK. You want to say these churches are apostolic because they can trace their lineage back to the first century.