Christian Nationalism? What In The Great Commission Is It?

When the scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment, He replied, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

The Great Commandment and the Foundation of Faith

So, why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this?

It had everything to do with how we talk about the Bible, and specifically, or along with that, what we point to as the foundation of faith, which for most Christians, unfortunately, is.

The Bible. We need to do better. We need to love God with all our hearts, and stand unashamedly on the rock of His Word. We need to love the Lord with all of our souls, and respond to the worldview issues of our day with the wisdom and discernment that comes only from Him.

We need to love the Lord with our minds, and understand the calling of God's people in every area of life in God's world. We need to love the Lord our God with all our strength, and face the work of building a life-giving, God-honouring culture.

Join us for 10 days at the Runner Academy for Cultural Leadership, as we consider how the Gospel influences all of life and culture, and the role that we have to play in applying foundational Christian thinking to every area of life.

This is the Academy. I am Eli Ayala of Revealed Apologetics, and I will be bringing a six-part series on Presuppositional Apologetics. What is this called? The Apology Academy? It's just called The Academy.

Okay.

What's up, everybody? My name is Pastor Jeff Durbin, and you're watching Collision Today. I'm gonna be interacting with an atheist on TikTok. So here we go.

Unsupervised and unhinged.

Welcome back to Cultus the Aftermath.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Ask Me Anything. You are watching Apologia Radio's after show exclusively for all access.

Non-rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.

Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie? Or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional.

Delusional? Delusional's okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me. What?

What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage. Go into all the world and make disciples.

Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

Paul, a slave of Messiah Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand, through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures concerning his son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead.

Jesus Christ, our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

Amen. That's Romans chapter 1, y 'all. Welcome back, everybody, to Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. You can get more at ApologiaStudios .com, A-P-O-L-O-G-I-A-Studios .com, ApologiaStudios .com.

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And we are going to complete that, but we have more important business to deal with today. We're going to be dealing today with the question of Christian nationalism and our good friends that we love dearly and respect highly, Josh Bice, Virgil Walker, and the gang over at G3.

We love those guys. We serve the Lord together with those guys. I cannot express the level of gratitude and respect and honor that I have for Josh Bice and for Virgil Walker, and I mean that. I love those men dearly.

Solid. Solid men. Virgil's my guy. And we fought some significant battles together, and we will continue to, Lord willing. We're going to continue to fight some significant battles. That's a good way to lead into this conversation, I think, actually.

Let's give everyone a background. First of all, we've done stuff with Virgil. We've done stuff with Josh. We love G3. James, our fellow elder, is speaking for G3 this year. So our diving into this discussion is because it's actually an important discussion to have because it intersects with so much that we've been saying for over a decade here at Apologia Radio and Apologia Church, and so much of this conversation really ultimately lands on some discussions that we are always having in terms of the authority of Jesus Christ, the scope of the gospel of the kingdom, the rule of Jesus Christ, again, the authority of Christ, and the law of God.

The mission of the church. The mission of the church. Theonomy. God's law over man's law. Like, all of it intersects. So I'll just say at the outset, Josh, Virgil, the gang over at G3, we love you. We highly respect you.

I think Josh is a better man than I'll ever be. So I'll put that on the table. He's an incredible pastor, incredible leader, and I genuinely mean that, and I'll just make sure I put this down so everyone understands this.

When we got a bill in the state of Georgia for equal protection, I was able to talk with Virgil and Josh, and I've got to tell you right now, Josh not only took it on in the state of Georgia and led in that effort to get that bill of equal protection for all humans from fertilization in and established, but whenever I needed something, all I needed to do is just make sure a message got to Josh, message him personally, call him, and he jumped, and he dove in headfirst to make sure that he sacrificed for that bill, and I will never, ever forget that.

He's a man that is trustworthy. He is bold. He stands on the word of God and the authority of Jesus Christ, and so I just want everyone to hear that. He's been one of the greatest allies that we've had as pastors and as a local church when we're trying to get these bills in.

He took his role seriously in the state of Georgia. He continues to take it seriously, and he can be trusted to do what he says and do it boldly and to not shrink back, and so that's the first thing I'll say.

The next thing I'll say is I don't have any jealousy at all for the term Christian nationalist. I don't want to wear it, to be honest with you. I don't know what it really means. There's so many different people describing what it means.

So for us, this is not like us, Christian nationalists versus G3. I actually think that Josh and Virgil and the guys in the recent episode asked some very good questions. I think they asked meaningful questions.

They did it in a respectful, honorable, brotherly way. It was very well done. I appreciate them very much, and so this isn't Apologia Radio, the Christian nationalists versus G3. This is actually Apologia Radio, the post-millennialists and the theonomists who have consistently said these things and taught these things, and we're looking into this conversation going, hmm, you're all basically getting around the edges of what we've been saying and the Puritans were saying since it's as old as the hills.

The discussion is as old as the hills, and it has this title, Christian nationalists, which no one seems to really have a definition of what that means. So really this is just us, the descendants of the Puritans theologically, the post-millennialists, the theonomists, the disciples of Greg Bonson basically engaging in this conversation saying, hey, everybody, I think what you're really all talking about is you're talking about post-millennialism and theonomy.

That's kind of what you're really talking about. So maybe engage with that content, content that's been laid down historically by Christians historically in the last hundred years, specifically by someone like Rush Dooney, who I don't agree with on everything.

Dr. Greg Bonson, I generally do, except he was wrong on baptism. Nobody's perfect. But that's really where we're at is we're engaging in this discussion saying, hey, what you are all talking about is just basically intersecting with the post-millennialism and the theonomy discussion.

So let's engage it with that. And I will shut up now after I say, with my brother Josh and Virgil and the gang over at G3, what I want to say is, look, these dudes get it. That's the main thing. So many things that's in their podcast, I go, look, they got it.

Of course they've got it. They're solid Christians. They know the word. They know the authority of Christ. They don't want to pretend neutrality. They've got it. But each of us is telling a story. Like we're telling a story about the future of the world.

The gang over at G3 is telling a story about the future of the world. What I would say is, no, you guys got like the main plot. You guys got it. But you've got some plot holes. Like the story you're telling has some plot holes.

And so what we're trying to do is actually engage with some of the good questions they asked. They asked great questions. And they're basically saying, like, we affirm these essential things. But we have questions about, like, well, what does that mean in these areas?

And so what I want to say is, hey, praise God for this discussion, because it needs to be had. You guys have heard me say a hundred times. There's one area. There's many areas. But there's one specific area, like throughout church history, that we've never had a moment of reformation in, like real focus, like let's get all the energy into it and really hash this out.

What does the scripture say? And that's in the area of theonomy, the law of God and application. Public theology, really. Yeah, to law of God in application to culture and society. We've had fights in history.

Praise God. And we've won. Praise the Lord. Over the nature of God, the Trinity, Christ, and his person, his gospel. When we get into the Reformation area, you're talking about big fights that occurred over, like, what is the ultimate authority, Sola Scriptura.

You had big fights over the issue of grace. Like, how gracious is grace? Like, how really gracious is grace? That's really what the Reformation was about. It was about Sola Scriptura and the grace of God and salvation.

And those were the things that were really being hashed out and, like, let's drill down on these. But we've never had in the history of the church this massive Reformation movement around, like, well, let's get specifically down to, like, how do you apply obedience to Christ in the world all around us?

And so that's what I'm going to say. It's a good conversation to have. I love, love, love Josh and Virgil. I know Josh listens to the show, so shout out to Josh and Virgil. We love you guys, and I can't say enough good things about you.

Yeah, I mean, like you said, I don't even know. They talk about Stephen Wolf's book. I haven't read it. I don't know what he says. We're not claiming that. If anything, I think we would fall somewhere probably in between the two.

But like you said, it's just what we've been saying this whole time, so it's nothing different. But listening to that show we're going to play clips from, and Zach and I were talking about this the other day, it's like there just seems to be a lot of just conversation in the weeds.

Right?

There's a lot of this like peripheral. We're talking past each other in some sense.

Yeah, and so like, I mean, even if we were to break down this entire show, which we're not going to, there's so much going on in that, in just that one hour long conversation. And so we were talking, and I was like, here's where I'm seeing things is obviously eschatology has a major role in this conversation.

And they acknowledge that. And they acknowledge that. But I think we're always trying to go back to what's the main root issue, and it's by what standard. Every conversation we're going to have, it's by what standard.

And I think that proper God-ordained jurisdictions, governmental roles need to be established because there's a lot of, like you said, talking past one another, not defining those roles. And then it's like we're not even having a meaningful conversation at this point because we haven't established what this role should look like.

And so that was kind of my initial thoughts, and even I would say otherwise. But my concern is it seems like they kind of told that line a little bit, kind of want to play with some of the aspects of Two Kingdom theology, which we'll get into.

But anyway. I see what you mean. Well, we're going to say, like, look, we love Josh Virgil, the guys. We love all of them. We respect them. They're great men of God. But we're going to say, of course, because we're brothers, look, I think you're being inconsistent here.

And that's okay to say. Like, they would say it about maybe us, and as Christians, we need to be able to say that graciously to each other. But that's what we're really saying is, like, look, you've got the main point, but there's inconsistencies now that are flowing out, and that's all we're doing is we're saying, hey, check out that inconsistency you've got right there.

That's an inconsistency because you said at the beginning of your show, you said this thing. And then later on in the show, you say this other thing. And those two things don't actually match. Right. But you affirm the main thing.

Right, exactly right. And you embrace the main thing. And so we're just going, hey, brother, check out that inconsistency. That doesn't really work, does it?

Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's just a great time to have the conversation in general. Like you said, the ground has been tilled leading up to this point so far, and now I think the events of the last two years in particular have really put this on fast forward.

Oh, for sure. Amen to that. So it's forced the church to really try to understand where the boundaries are between the spheres of authority and to develop and cultivate a public theology because we really haven't had, we haven't had to.

We've kind of been blessed growing up swimming in a water and we don't know we're wet in terms of living in the remnants of a Christian society and all of this fruit, this capital that we were given by our ancestors, these blessings, these tremendous blessings of living in a, you know, a nation that was so heavily impacted by the Christian worldview.

And now that's rapidly dissipating and not just in the last 50 years, but in the last 10 years, the decline has become very steep. And now we're seeing these things and now we're having to seriously consider and think through, okay, what does it mean to live faithfully and obediently as a Christian in this generation where things are shifting?

And is there a promise that our faithfulness will have an effect? Yeah.

Yeah. And the blessing in the past in Christendom, in whatever nation Christ ruled over and people submitted to Christ and, you know, in every area of that culture, the blessing they had is that they got to assume so many things.

The assumption is, is that Christ is Lord over the government. The assumption is, is that the King has to obey Jesus. Yes.

There's a limitation on authority and division of power.

That's the fight the covenanters were having with the King. And they're saying, of course you're the King. Of course we'll be good servants. Of course we're going to obey you as the King, but like you have to obey Jesus.

And the whole discussion of Samuel Rutherford and Lex Rex, the law's King, that could be said because they were pressing on an understanding of, of the authority of Christ in government. Even in that sphere, look, you're the government sphere.

We get that. You're the King. We get that, but you still have to obey the transcendent law. You're not the, you're not the law King. Right. Lex Rex, the law is King. And so they got to assume all this stuff.

Here we are now with like, you know, the last vestiges of Christendom hanging around in the West. And all the blessings are still kind of like there, but it's, it's shaky now. Yeah. And now the church is having to go, okay, everyone, let's regather here for a second.

And let's talk about what we really believe. And so I, someone asked the question, like, are these guys approaching it? Is this show pro Christian nationalism or against it? The way, the best way I can answer that is that we're pro great commission.

And if you believe the great commission is not merely wishful thinking, but it's actually where the world is going, that all the nations are going under the feet of Jesus and that everybody is required to obey Jesus, that that's essentially disciplinary nations teaching them to obey Jesus.

Like if you believe that, then what does that nation look like? If like, generally speaking, like you have a nation where like reformation has happened or revival has happened or. Yes. Awakening has happened.

Outpouring of the spirit of God. And like from top to bottom, generally, it's all profession of Lordship of Christ. We're just going to say, what does that nation look like in terms of when they start actually legislating?

Cause what is legislation? It's the imposition of morality. All right, let's, let's make sure that we get away from the whole like modern evangelical wishy-washy squishy. Like I'm a pastor. I don't get involved in politics.

Well, then you're failing. Sorry. Politics engages in legislation, which is the imposition of morality. And if legislation is the imposition of morality, because it is, what is legislation? It's saying you ought to do this and you ought not to do that.

That's an art. We're saying you must do this. You must not do that. It's morality. And if legislation is about morality, then the question must be asked, as King Jesus have something to say about morality.

And really this question comes down to, do you really believe that Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords today? Is it something, is it something in the future he's going to attain or is Jesus ruling and reigning on that Davidic throne now as King, as Paul says in first Corinthians 15, is he Revelation one to five, the ruler of the Kings of the earth today.

Reminder, just a reminder, humble reminder that that was said by the apostle John during the reign of Nero, that he's the ruler of the Kings of the earth today. I mean, if you really believe Psalm chapter two, that we are, that the nations are Christ, God's going to give them to all to Jesus.

The inheritance is the earth, the ends of the earth. If you believe that all the Kings of the earth are supposed to obey Jesus and kiss the sun, then what does the nation look like that does that? Like how does it legislate?

Like if, if the legislators are actually God's deacon, if that's their God's servant and they're supposed to actually serve the true God, then what does it look like when they do? That's the, that's all this means.

So when someone says, are you a Christian nationalist? I'm like, I don't even know what that means. If you're asking me, do I believe the nations are coming to Jesus and they're all going to be, they're all going to obey Jesus.

I'm going to say, well, that's just the great commission. Like, why is that confusing to you? Why are you surprised that Christians believe that the nations are all going to come to Jesus and obey him?

That's just the great commission. And I don't believe the great commission is wishful thinking. I think the great commission is absolutely happening and will come to a climax and summation. And I, I read the verse at the beginning of the show.

I mean, Romans one, and then Paul bookends it in Romans 16. And what's the command of the eternal God, according to his gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ and the making, the disclosing of this hidden mystery that was kept hidden for ages long ago.

And what is that? To bring about the obedience of faith. Yeah. Well, where? Everywhere. Everywhere where Jesus has authority. And that extends geographical boundaries, institutional boundaries. It transcends, it transcends the offices of authority that men and women hold everywhere.

Well, because the question is asking,.

This can be, this can be brought out with numerous texts from the new Testament, but also the old Testament. The question is asked somewhere in the podcast. And I don't know if I haven't queued up, but like where in the new Testament is this taught?

Yes. Everywhere. Let's start with the great commission itself. How about Paul's explanation, his systematic explanation of the gospel? Like you brought out, he bookends Romans with Romans one and 16 with the obedience of faith among all the nations for the sake of his name, which is an iteration.

I mean, I mean really a repeating of Genesis 49, 49, 10, what the descendant of Judah is going to accomplish in the world.

Shiloh is coming into him, shall be the obedience of the nations. That's the goal of the gospel of the kingdom. The nations are coming to obey God. So all we're asking is this question. What does it look like when a nation obeys Jesus Christ?

Yeah. Do they obey him faithfully? Are they required to obey him faithfully in every area, individually, family, church, state? I would argue. Yes. And if you say, do you really believe that? I would say, what does all authority in heaven and on earth mean to you?

And what does it mean for Jesus to be king over kings today? Are they actually supposed to obey the king over them? And if they are to obey the king over them, then what does it look like to obey the king over him?

Now here's, I know we're getting ahead of ourselves, but this is like, if you guys want to say like encapsulate what you're saying is an inconsistency. Okay. So Josh is so faithful. I mean, I could call him, message him and say, Hey, this is happening in Georgia.

We need your help. Can you let people know this is going on? Can you show up? And, and we saw each other in Georgia for a meeting with like over a hundred pastors and everything else. I mean, he was there and so faithful and so hard at work.

Josh recognizes, Hey, look, I'm going to say to the legislature, you have to obey God, repent of this injustice and establish justice in the area of the pre-born with equal protection. Josh believes that as much as me, as much as us.

Yeah. He believes it. And not only believes it, are you ready? He fought for it and he continues to fight for it. So if you were to ask Josh, Josh, why are you doing that? On what basis? Says who? By what authority?

Josh would say, because King Jesus says, so he goes to the legislature now and he says, you must obey Jesus Christ and stop the slaughter. That's happening right now. Equal protection. Why? Because God says in his word, that's what Josh would say.

Now, where else does Jesus have something to say? Right. Exactly. Does he have something to say to the legislature in the area of gender bending, sexual immorality, theft, all those things. Yeah. We would say so.

So it's a good conversation to have because Josh already adopts. No King Jesus has something to say. He has all authority. You must obey Jesus here. We're saying fantastic. It has to go everywhere now.

Um, yeah. And I can, I'd say one more thing and then we'll just play the clip. And then, um, I had an interview the other day with somebody and, uh, they brought up a good point that we affirm in this whole area that we're dealing in with EAN and equal protection bills across the country.

We believe with all of our hearts and what our nation needs is a heart change. They need regeneration. There must be, there must be like a great awakening. Another one, uh, the pouring out of God's spirit by his gospel.

The only thing that's really going to fully transform a nation is not the law. It's going to be new hearts and a change that comes from the gospel. People have to have the spirit of God in them and love God's law to be truly transformed and truly meaningful.

So someone says, Hey, you know what? All this stuff you guys are doing with equal protection right now. Look, the deal is you got to recognize that the only way this is really going to happen is, is through regeneration and transformation of the culture via the gospel.

I'd say, yeah, that's why we're doing it under the banner of Christ and with the gospel everywhere we go, because that's what we fundamentally believe. But you know what? On our way to a transformed culture and society, I'd still like rape to be against the law.

Yeah. And I'd still like murder to be against the law. So like, yeah. Are, are, are we hoping for a day when the culture is transformed via the gospel and people don't love theft? They don't love rape.

They don't love murder. Yeah. We're hoping for that. We're fighting for that via the gospel. That's the only real transformation that's going to work. However, on the way there, it's the duty of the church to be prophetic in the area of justice and say to the magistrate, you're God's deacon.

You must stop the slaughter. You're God's deacon. You must criminalize rape. You're God's deacon. You must criminalize theft. We're still along the way, supposed to be prophetic and say to Herod, it is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife, right?

A prophetic voice coming from the people of God that say, you must obey Jesus Christ.

That's all we're saying. As if he's supposed to obey that, even if he doesn't profess Christ or is regenerate. Or if he's sinful, you still have to obey.

Right. I was just going to add one quick thing going back to something you said a second ago is we've taken this from Joe boot, but politics is nothing more than legislative morality. And the question isn't, are we going to legislate morality?

It's whose morality are we going to legislate? And that's what, when I say by what standard, that's where I'm aiming there is who, whose standard are we legislating? And like, I see even in the comments, you know, you, you see people like you, you just want to theocracy, you know, it's like, look, you're already living one.

We're in one. The problem right now is, is the God is Demas. Yeah. Right. And we're saying, we don't want Demas as the God, you know, we want the, the Protestant triune God of the Bible as the God. That's where we're trying to get to.

So here's the deal. Ready? Unless you're a nihilist. Yeah. Everything's a theocracy. Yeah.

Unless you're a nihilist. Because nihilists would be like, you know, nothing matters. There's no real ultimate. But if you recognize, no, there's, there's an ultimate and you must uphold justice. And there are, there is morality.

Then it's like Luke said, it's in the question of whose morality and what ultimate. And, and Demas right now is the people in the United States that say, we have decided and we are the ultimate. And it goes with how we feel.

And so there's a theocracy. What is a theocracy? It's, it's the imposition of an ultimate, right? Oh, just call it an ultimate. Like we're Christians are saying that Jesus Christ is the ultimate. He's the King of Kings.

And you're saying in North Korea, that Kim Jong Un is the ultimate. Yeah. He's the God over that system. And in all these Muslim States out there, they're saying, no Allah is ultimate. And in the United States of America today, they're saying Demas is ultimate.

So again, unless you're a nihilist, you're going to have a theocratic nation. It, it, you may not profess it to be theocratic. No, we don't believe in any gods, but you believe in an ultimate. You're saying there's an ought here.

You must obey. And here's the question. Who says you? Oh, so you're the ultimate. So the theocracy happening now is the Biden administration and the, the people of the United States of America. They're deciding what's moral.

What's right. What ought to be done. What ought not to be done. So the, theocracy is inevitable unless you're a nihilist. Yeah. Okay. And so we're there now. So everyone's got to accept the fact that if you say there's an ought and an ultimate that someone must obey, you are in some sense arguing for the theocracy.

It's not a question of whether you'll have a God, but which God. Yeah.

Theocracy is unavoidable, but we would say no to an ecclesiocracy. That is a church run state. There's a difference.

Well, that's going to, let's get into it. Yes. Here we go. All right. Here's my, my brother, Josh. It's different influences from the woke ideologies that are being pressed upon the church today. So how do we deal with that?

And so we have some people that say, well, you know, we have to have a manly, robust, muscular form of Christianity that says we're going to stand in the public square and we're going to just fight it out, you know, with all of the, the leaders within the civil realm.

And we're going to just basically, you know, claim dominion over, over every aspect of, of our culture. And what we can agree with on simple terms is that a Christian should actually speak to the civil sphere in the public square.

We should actually speak to, as John the Baptist did to Herod and say, you should not have your brother's wife. We should actually do as John Piper did and speak to the president of the United States when he's celebrating the slaughter of, of innocent babies.

We should actually do what John MacArthur did as he modeled in California, as he speaks to the governor in an open letter. So we should, we should do this. We should do what we did during COVID and we should actually say, no, that's not the jurisdiction of the state.

And the church has the right to actually gather and worship because this is the realm and the sphere where God says that we are to obey him. And so you can't speak to this. So this is a important, Josh has it,.

Has it. That's it. That's totally it. Josh there sounds like your standard fair, post-millennialist and theonomist. He does. They would be saying, we'd be saying the same things, but I just want to, I just want to make a note of something and then continue to play this.