Christian Nationalism? What In The Great Commission Is It?

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When the Scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment, He replied, You shall love the

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Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

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So, why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this? It had everything to do with how we talk about the

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Bible. And specifically, or along with that, what we point to as the foundation of faith, which for most

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Christians, unfortunately, is the Bible. We need to do better.

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We need to love God with all our hearts, and stand unashamedly on the rock of His Word. We need to love the

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Lord with all of our souls, and respond to the worldview issues of our day with the wisdom and discernment that comes only from Him.

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We need to love the Lord with our minds, and understand the calling of God's people in every area of life in God's world.

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We need to love the Lord our God with all our strength, and face the work of building a life -giving,

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God -honouring culture. Join us for 10 days at the Runner Academy for Cultural Leadership, as we consider how the

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Gospel influences all of life and culture, and the role that we have to play in applying foundational

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Christian thinking to every area of life. This is

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My name is Pastor Jeff Durbin, and you're watching Collision Today. I'm gonna be interacting with an atheist on TikTok.

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So here we go. Unsupervised and unhinged. Welcome back to Cultus the

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Aftermath. Hey, everybody.

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Welcome back to another episode of Ask Me Anything. You are watching Apologia Radio's after show exclusively for all access.

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Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.

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Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional. Delusional, yeah.

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Delusional's okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

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So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me!

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What?! Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

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The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Right. Don't go into the world and make homies.

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Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke,

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Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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Paul, a slave of Messiah Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the

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Holy Scriptures concerning his son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the

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Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead,

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Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

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Amen. That's Romans chapter 1, y 'all. Welcome back, everybody, to Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world.

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Faceplant in regard to trying to critique a video, a kind of online tract of the

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Gospel for Latter -day Saints, and we are going to complete that. But we have more important business to deal with today.

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We're going to be dealing today with the question of Christian nationalism and our good friends that we love dearly and respect highly.

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Josh Bice, Virgil Walker, and the gang over at G3. We love those guys.

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We serve the Lord together with those guys. I cannot express the level of gratitude and respect and honor that I have for Josh Bice and for Virgil Walker, and I mean that.

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I love those men dearly. Solid, solid men. Virgil's my guy. And we fought some significant battles together, and we will continue to,

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Lord willing. We're going to continue to fight some significant battles. That's a good way to lead into this conversation,

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I think, actually. Let's give everyone a background. First of all, we've done stuff with Virgil. We've done stuff with Josh.

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We love G3. James, our fellow elder, is speaking for G3 this year.

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So our diving into this discussion is because it's actually an important discussion to have because it intersects with so much that we've been saying for over a decade here at Apologia Radio and Apologia Church, and so much of this conversation really ultimately lands on some discussions that we are always having in terms of the authority of Jesus Christ, the scope of the gospel, of the kingdom, the rule of Jesus Christ, again, the authority of Christ, and the law of God.

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The mission of the church. The mission of the church. Theonomy. God's law over man's law. Like all of it intersects.

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So I'll just say at the outset, Josh, Virgil, the gang over at G3, we love you.

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We highly respect you. I think Josh is a better man than I'll ever be. So I'll put that on the table.

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He's an incredible pastor, an incredible leader, and I genuinely mean that. And I'll just make sure

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I put this down so everyone understands this. When we got a bill in the state of Georgia for equal protection,

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I was able to talk with Virgil and Josh, and I got to tell you right now, Josh not only took it on in the state of Georgia and led in that effort to get that bill of equal protection for all humans from fertilization in and established, but whenever I needed something, all

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I needed to do is just make sure a message got to Josh, message him personally, call him, and he jumped and he dove in headfirst to make sure that he sacrificed for that bill, and I will never ever forget that.

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He's a man that is trustworthy. He is bold. He stands on the Word of God and the authority of Jesus Christ.

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And so I just want everyone to hear that. He's been one of the greatest allies that we've had as pastors and as a local church when we're trying to get these bills in.

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He took his role seriously in the state of Georgia. He continues to take it seriously, and he can be trusted to do what he says and do it boldly and to not shrink back.

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So that's the first thing I'll say. The next thing I'll say is I don't have any jealousy at all for the term Christian Nationalist. I don't want to wear it, to be honest with you.

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I don't know what it really means. There's so many different people describing what it means. So for us, this is not like us,

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Christian Nationalists versus G3. I actually think that Josh and Virgil and the guys in the recent episode asked some very good questions.

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I think they asked meaningful questions. They did it in a respectful, honorable, brotherly way. It was very well done.

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I appreciate them very much. And so this isn't Apologia Radio, the Christian Nationalists versus G3. This is actually

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Apologia Radio, the post -millennialists and the theonomists, who have consistently said these things and taught these things.

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And we're looking into this conversation going, hmm. You're all basically getting around the edges of what we've been saying and the

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Puritans were saying, since it's as old as the hills. The discussion is as old as the hills.

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And it has this title, Christian Nationalists, which no one seems to really have a definition of what that means.

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So really, this is just us, the descendants of the Puritans, theologically, the post -millennialists, the theonomists, the disciples of Greg Bonson, basically engaging in this conversation saying, hey, everybody,

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I think what you're really all talking about is you're talking about post -millennialism and theonomy. That's kind of what you're really talking about.

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So maybe engage with that content, content that's been laid down historically by Christians historically in the last hundred years, specifically by someone like Rush Dooney, who

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I don't agree with on everything. Dr. Greg Bonson, I generally do, except he was wrong on baptism. Nobody's perfect.

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But that's really where we're at, is what we're engaged in this discussion saying, hey, what you are all talking about is just basically intersecting with the post -millennialism and the theonomy discussion.

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So let's engage it with that. And I will shut up now after I say, with my brother

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Josh and Virgil and the gang over at G3, what I want to say is, look, these dudes get it.

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That's the main thing. So many things that's in their podcast. I go, look, they got it. Of course they've got it. They're solid Christians. They know the word.

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They know the authority of Christ. They don't want to pretend neutrality. They've got it. But each of us is telling a story, like we're telling a story about the about the future of the world.

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The gang over at G3 is telling a story about the future of the world. What I would say is, no, you guys got like the the the main plot.

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You guys, you guys got it. But you've got some plot holes, like the story you're telling has some plot holes. And so what we're trying to do is actually engage with some of the good questions they asked.

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They asked great questions. And they they're basically saying, like, we affirm these essential things, but we have questions about like, well, what does that mean in these areas?

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And so what I want to say is, hey, praise God for this discussion, because it needs to be had. You guys have heard me say a hundred times, like the one there's one area.

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There's many areas, but there's one specific area like throughout church history that we've never had a moment of reformation in like real focus.

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Like, let's get all the energy into it and really hash this out. What does the scripture say?

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And that's in the area of theonomy, the law of God and public theology, really. Yeah, to to to law of God in application to the culture and society.

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We've had fights in history. Praise God. And we've won. Praise the Lord over the nature of God, the

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Trinity, Christ and the gospel person, his gospel. When we get into the Reformation area, you're talking about big fights that occurred over like what is the ultimate authority, sola scriptura.

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You had big fights over the issue of grace. Like how gracious is grace? Like how really gracious is grace?

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That's really what the Reformation was about. It was about sola scriptura and the grace of God and salvation. And those were the things that were really being hashed out.

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And like, let's drill down on these. But we've never had in the history of the church this massive reformation movement around like, well, let's get specifically down to like, how do you apply obedience to Christ in the world all around us?

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And so that's that's what I'm going to say. It's a good conversation to have. I love, love, love Josh and Virgil. I know

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Josh listens to the show. So shout out to to Josh and Virgil. We love you guys.

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And I can't say enough good things about you. So, yeah, I mean, like you said,

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I don't even know. They talk about Stephen Wolf's book. I don't I don't even I haven't read it. I don't know what he says. We're not claiming that.

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If anything, I think we would fall somewhere probably in between the two. But like you said, it's just what we've been saying this whole time.

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So it's nothing different. But listening to to that show, we're going to play clips from it just in Zach and I were talking about this the other day.

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It's like there just seems to be a lot of just conversation in the weeds, right?

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There's a lot of this, like, we're talking past each other, talking about like, yeah. And so, like, I mean, if we even if we were to break down this entire show, which we're not going to, there's so much going on in that and just that one hour long conversation.

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And so we were talking, I was like, here's where where I'm seeing things is obviously eschatology has a major role in this conversation.

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And they acknowledge that. And they acknowledge that. And but I think the, you know, we're always trying to go back to like, what's the main root issue?

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And it's by what standard? Like every conversation we're going to have, it's by what standard?

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And I think that proper God ordained jurisdictions, governmental roles need to be established, because there's a lot of, like you said, talking past one another, not defining those roles.

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And then it's like, we're not even having a meaningful conversation at this point, because we haven't established what this role should look like.

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And so that was kind of my initial thoughts, and I would say otherwise, but my concern is, it seems like they kind of told that line a little bit, kind of want to play with some of the aspects of Two Kingdom theology, which we'll get into.

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But anyway, what you mean? Well, we're gonna, we're gonna say like, look, we love Josh Virgil, the guys, we love all of them, we respect them, they're great men of God.

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But we're gonna say, of course, because we're brothers, look, I think you're being inconsistent here. And that's, that's okay to say, like, they would say it about maybe us.

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And there's, as Christians, we need to be able to say that graciously to each other. But that's what we're really saying is, is like, look, like, you've got the main point.

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But there's inconsistencies now that are that are flowing out. And that's all we're doing is we're saying, hey, check out that inconsistency right out right there.

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That's, that's an inconsistency. Because you said at the beginning of your show, you said this thing. And then later on in the show, you say this other thing.

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And those two things don't actually match. But you but you affirm the main thing. Right, exactly. And you embrace the main thing.

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And so we're just going, hey, brother, check out that inconsistency. That doesn't really work, does it? So, yeah. Yeah, I think it's just a great time to have the conversation in general.

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Like you said, the ground has been tilled leading up to this point so far. And now I think the events of the last two years in particular have really put this on fast forward.

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Oh, for sure. So it's forced the church to really try to understand where the boundaries are between the spheres of authority and to develop and cultivate a public theology.

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Because we really haven't had, we haven't had to. We've kind of been blessed growing up swimming in a water and we don't know we're wet in terms of living in the remnants of a

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Christian society. And all of this fruit, this capital that we were given by our ancestors, these blessings, these tremendous blessings of living in a, you know, a nation that was so heavily impacted by the

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Christian worldview. And now that's rapidly dissipating. And not just in the last 50 years, but in the last 10 years, the decline has become very steep.

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And now we're seeing these things. And now we're having to seriously consider and think through, okay, what does it mean to live faithfully and obediently as a

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Christian in this generation where things are shifting? And is there a promise that our faithfulness will have an effect?

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Yeah, yeah. And the blessing in the past in Christendom, in whatever nation

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Christ ruled over and people submitted to Christ and, you know, in every area of that culture, the blessing they had is that they got to assume so many things.

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The assumption is, is that Christ is Lord over the government. The assumption is, is that the king has to obey Jesus. Yes.

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There's a limitation on authority and division of power. That's the fight the covenanters were having with the king. And they're saying, of course, you're the king.

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Of course, we'll be good servants. Of course, we're going to obey you as the king. But, like, you have to obey Jesus. And the whole discussion of Samuel Rutherford and Lex Rex, the law's king, that could be said because they were pressing on an understanding of the authority of Christ in government, even in that sphere.

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Look, you're the government sphere. We get that. You're the king. We get that. But you still have to obey the transcendent law.

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You're not the you're not the law king, right? Lex Rex, the law is king. And so they got to assume all this stuff.

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Here we are now with, like, you know, the last vestiges of Christendom hanging around in the West and all the blessings are still kind of like there.

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But it's it's shaky now. Yeah. And now the church is having to go, OK, everyone, let's regather here for a second.

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Let's talk about what we really believe. And so someone asked the question, like, are these guys approaching it? Or is this show pro -Christian nationalism or against it?

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The way the best way I can answer that is that we're pro Great Commission. And if you believe the

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Great Commission is not merely wishful thinking, but it's actually where the world is going, that all the nations are going under the feet of Jesus and that everybody is required to obey

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Jesus, that that's essentially disciplinary nations teaching them to obey Jesus. Like, if you believe that, then what does that nation look like?

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If, like, generally speaking, like you have a nation where, like, Reformation has happened or Revival has happened or Awakening has happened,

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Outpouring of the Spirit of God, and like from top to bottom, generally it's all profession of Lordship of Christ.

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Sure. We're just going to say, what does that nation look like in terms of when they start actually legislating? Because what is legislation?

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It's the imposition of morality. All right. Let's let's make sure that we get away from the whole, like, modern evangelical wishy -washy squishy.

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Like, I'm a pastor. I don't get involved in politics. Well, then you're failing. Sorry. Politics engages in legislation, which is the imposition of morality.

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And if legislation is the imposition of morality, because it is, what is legislation? It's saying you ought to do this and you ought not to do that.

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That's an ought. We're saying you must do this. You must not do that. It's morality. And if legislation is about morality, then the question must be asked, does

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King Jesus have something to say about morality? And really, this question comes down to, do you really believe that Jesus is

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King of Kings and Lord of Lords today? Is it something in the future He's going to attain?

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Or is Jesus ruling and reigning on that Davidic throne now as King, as Paul says in 1

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Corinthians 15? Is He, Revelation 1 -5, the ruler of the kings of the earth today? Reminder, just a reminder, humble reminder, that that was said by the

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Apostle John during the reign of Nero, that He's the ruler of the kings of the earth today. If you really believe,

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Psalm chapter 2, that the nations are Christ, God's going to give them all to Jesus, the inheritance is the earth, the ends of the earth.

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If you believe that all the kings of the earth are supposed to obey Jesus and kiss the sun, then what does the nation look like that does that?

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How do they legislate? If the legislators are actually God's deacon, if they're

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God's servant, and they're supposed to actually serve the true God, then what does it look like when they do? That's all this means.

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So when someone says, are you a Christian nationalist? I'm like, I don't even know what that means. If you're asking me, do I believe the nations are coming to Jesus and they're all going to obey

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Jesus? I'm going to say, well, that's just the Great Commission. Why is that confusing to you? Why are you surprised that Christians believe that the nations are all going to come to Jesus and obey

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Him? That's just the Great Commission. And I don't believe the Great Commission is wishful thinking. I think the Great Commission is absolutely happening and will come to a climax and summation.

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And I... You read the verse at the beginning of the show. Yeah. I mean, Romans 1, and then Paul bookends it in Romans 16.

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And what's the command of the eternal God? According to his gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ and the making, the disclosing of this hidden mystery that was kept hidden for ages long ago.

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And what is that? To bring about the obedience of faith. Yeah. Well, where? Everywhere. Everywhere where Jesus has authority.

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Which is... That extends geographical boundaries, institutional boundaries. As far as the church is concerned.

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It transcends the offices of authority that men and women hold everywhere. Well, because the question is asked, and this can be brought out with numerous texts from the

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New Testament, but also the Old Testament. The question is asked somewhere in the podcast, and I don't know if I have it queued up, but where in the

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New Testament is this taught? Everywhere? Let's start with the Great Commission itself.

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How about Paul's explanation, his systematic explanation of the gospel like you brought out? He bookends

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Romans 1 and 16 with the obedience of faith among all the nations for the sake of his name.

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Which is an iteration, I mean, really a repeating of Genesis 49. 49 tense. What the descendant of Judah is going to accomplish in the world.

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Shiloh is coming and to him shall be the obedience of the nations. That's the goal of the gospel of the kingdom.

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The nations are coming to obey God. So all we're asking is this question. What does it look like when a nation obeys Jesus Christ?

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Yeah. Do they obey him faithfully? Are they required to obey him faithfully in every area, individually, family, church, state?

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I would argue, yes. And if you say, do you really believe that? I would say, what does all authority in heaven and on earth mean to you?

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And what does it mean for Jesus to be king over kings today? Are they actually supposed to obey the king over them?

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And if they are to obey the king over them, then what does it look like to obey the king over him? Now here's, I know we're getting ahead of ourselves, but this is like, if you guys want encapsulate what you're saying is an inconsistency.

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Okay. So Josh is so faithful. I mean, I could call him, message him and say,

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Hey, this is happening in Georgia. We need your help. Can you let people know this is going on? Can you show up?

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And we saw each other in Georgia for a meeting with like over a hundred pastors and everything else. I mean, he was there so faithful and so hard at work.

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Josh recognizes, Hey, look, I'm going to say to the legislature, you have to obey God, repent of this injustice and establish justice in the area of the pre -born with equal protection.

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Josh believes that as much as me, as much as us. He believes it.

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And not only believes it, are you ready? He fought for it and he continues to fight for it. So if you were to ask

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Josh, Josh, why are you doing that? On what basis? Says who? By what authority?

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Josh would say, because King Jesus says. So he goes to the legislature now and he says, you must obey

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Jesus Christ and stop the slaughter that's happening right now. Equal protection. Why?

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Because God says in his word, that's what Josh would say. Now, where else does

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Jesus have something to say? Does he have something to say to the legislature in the area of gender bending, sexual immorality, theft, all those things?

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Yeah, we would say so. So it's a good conversation to have because Josh already adopts. No, King Jesus has something to say.

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He has all authority. You must obey Jesus here. We're saying, fantastic. It has to go everywhere now.

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Can I say one more thing and then we'll just play the clip and then... Go ahead. I had an interview the other day with somebody and they brought up a good point that we affirm.

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In this whole area that we're dealing in with EAN and equal protection bills across the country, we believe with all of our hearts that what our nation needs is a heart change.

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They need regeneration. There must be like a great awakening, another one.

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The pouring out of God's spirit by his gospel. The only thing that's really going to fully transform a nation is not the law.

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It's going to be new hearts and a change that comes from the gospel. People have to have the spirit of God in them and love

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God's law to be truly transformed and truly meaningful. So someone says, hey, you know what?

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All the stuff you guys are doing with equal protection right now, the deal is you got to recognize that the only way this is really going to happen is through regeneration and transformation of the culture via the gospel.

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I'd say, yeah, that's why we're doing it under the banner of Christ and with the gospel everywhere we go because that's what we fundamentally believe.

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But you know what? On our way to a transformed culture and society, I'd still like rape to be against the law.

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Yeah. And I'd still like murder to be against the law. So like, yeah, are we hoping for a day when the culture is transformed via the gospel and people don't love theft?

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They don't love rape. They don't love murder. Yeah, we're hoping for that. We're fighting for that via the gospel. That's the only real transformation that's going to work.

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However, on the way there, it's the duty of the church to be prophetic in the area of justice and say to the magistrate, you're

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God's deacon. You must stop the slaughter. You're God's deacon. You must criminalize rape. You're God's deacon.

28:14

You must criminalize theft. We're still along the way supposed to be prophetic and say to Herod, it is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife.

28:24

Right? A prophetic voice coming from the people of God that say you must obey Jesus Christ. That's all we're saying. Yeah. As if he's supposed to obey that, even if he doesn't profess

28:32

Christ or is regenerate. Or if he's sinful, you still have to obey. Yeah. Right. I was just going to add one quick thing going back to something you said a second ago is we've taken this from Joe Boot, but politics is nothing more than legislative morality.

28:48

And the question isn't, are we going to legislate morality? It's whose morality are we going to legislate?

28:53

And that's when I say, by what standard? That's where I'm aiming there is whose standard are we legislating?

29:00

And like I see even in the comments, you see people like, Ted, you just want a theocracy.

29:06

You know, it's like, look. You're already living one. We're in one. The problem right now is the God is

29:11

Demas. Yeah. Right. And we're saying we don't want Demas as the God. You know, we want the

29:16

Protestant triune God of the Bible as the God. That's where we're trying to get to. So here's the deal.

29:22

Ready? Unless you're a nihilist. Yeah. Everything's a theocracy.

29:28

Yeah. Unless you're a nihilist, because nihilists would be like, you know, nothing matters.

29:34

There's no real ultimate. But if you recognize, no, there's an ultimate and you must uphold justice and there is morality, then it's like Luke said.

29:43

It's a question of whose morality and what ultimate. And Demas right now is the people in the

29:49

United States that say we have decided and we are the ultimate and it goes with how we feel. And so there's a theocracy.

29:56

What is a theocracy? It's the imposition of an ultimate, right? Just call it an ultimate. Like we're

30:01

Christians are saying that Jesus Christ is the ultimate. He's the King of Kings. And you're saying in North Korea that Kim Jong -un is the ultimate.

30:10

Yeah. He's the God over that system. And in all these Muslim states out there, they're saying Allah is ultimate.

30:17

And in the United States of America today, they're saying Demas is ultimate. So again, unless you're a nihilist, you're going to have a theocratic nation.

30:24

You may not profess it to be theocratic. No, we don't believe in any gods, but you believe in an ultimate. You're saying there's an ought here.

30:30

You must obey. And here's the question. Who says? You? Oh, so you're the ultimate.

30:36

So the theocracy happening now is the Biden administration and the people of the

30:41

United States of America. They're deciding what's moral, what's right, what ought to be done, what ought not to be done. So the theocracy is inevitable unless you're a nihilist.

30:51

Yeah. Okay. And so we're there now. So everyone's got to accept the fact that if you say there's an ought and an ultimate that someone must obey, you are in some sense arguing for the theocracy.

31:01

It's not a question of whether you'll have a God, but which God? Yeah. Theocracy is unavoidable, but we would say no to an ecclesiocracy.

31:08

That is a church run state. We reject that. There's a difference. Well, let's get into it now.

31:13

Yes. Here we go. All right. Here's my brother, Josh. It's different influences from the woke ideologies that are being pressed upon the church today.

31:21

So how do we deal with that? And so we have some people that say, well, you know, we have to have a manly, robust, muscular form of Christianity that says we're going to stand in the public square and we're going to just fight it out, you know, with all of the leaders within the civil realm.

31:39

And we're going to just basically claim dominion over every aspect of our culture.

31:48

And what we can agree with on simple terms is that a

31:54

Christian should actually speak to the civil sphere in the public square. We should actually speak to, as John the

32:01

Baptist did, to Herod and say, you should not have your brother's wife. We should actually do, as John Piper did, and speak to the president of the

32:10

United States when he's celebrating the slaughter of innocent babies.

32:16

We should actually do what John MacArthur did as he modeled in California as he speaks to the governor in an open letter.

32:23

So we should do this. We should do what we did during COVID, and we should actually say, no, that's not the jurisdiction of the state, and the church has the right to actually gather and worship, because this is the realm and the sphere where God says that we are to obey

32:42

Him, and so you can't speak to this. So this is important. Josh has it. That's it.

32:49

That's totally it. Josh there sounds like your standard fair post -millennialist and theonomist.

32:56

He does. They would be saying—we'd be saying the same things. But I just want to make a note of something and then continue to play this.

33:03

Josh acknowledges, because he's right. He's solid. He's solid as they come. Acknowledges, look, you bring the law to bear against Herod and say

33:11

God's law forbids you, specifically in the Torah, forbids you to do what you're doing. So what are you assuming there when you say that to the ruling authorities around you as the church?

33:22

You're assuming that the ruling authorities have to obey God, right? And when he says MacArthur is writing a letter to the governor saying you don't have a right, according to God, to do what you're doing, he's saying to the governor that you must obey

33:35

God rather than men. You must obey Jesus Christ, God's law. That's what MacArthur was saying is that God's law counts and you must obey it.

33:44

And Josh is acknowledging there that the church's prophetic role is to the state, that sphere, you must obey

33:50

God. Now here's the deal. Ready? We're all saying the same thing. Yeah. That's all.

33:56

That's it. That's a summary of a theonomic practice. However, I think where the discussion gets interesting and where there starts to be divergences, okay, so if the state, if that sphere, the civil government has to obey

34:10

Jesus, does that enable them to then enforce compliance, right?

34:18

Obedience to God's law on unbelievers. We do it all the time. We do it today.

34:24

So for example, here's what they would say. I'll lay it out because they say, you know, we're Baptists, we believe in, of course, we love this nation, the first amendment, you know, the separation of church and state, all of that.

34:35

And therefore, one thing the king cannot do is compel religion. He can't compel worship.

34:41

And so what we would never want to say is that the state imposes professions of faith upon the populace.

34:48

We don't believe that. That's not how people get saved. You're only saved through responding to God's gracious, effectual call in the gospel by his spirit.

34:58

You cannot impose confessions of faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

35:04

That must come through the gospel. However, we want the state today to impose the law of God upon society when we say that we want murder against the law.

35:18

When we want rape against the law. And if you ask, well, like, why? Well, we would say, because Yahweh says.

35:25

Because the triune God of scripture lives and he's spoken. That's why. So this, again, we need to get, we just need to be able to say it with boldness and confidence and stop playing around the edges of it.

35:37

Yes, Christians want God's law imposed upon society. Yes, we do.

35:43

You do. Don't pretend like you don't. Do you want people to be allowed to copulate openly with animals in the streets?

35:51

And if you say, well, no, I wouldn't want that. By what standard? Go ahead. Try to give me an argument outside of the revelation of God that says that people should not be able to copulate with animals.

36:01

Try and do it. Here's one better. Ready? Try and do it with a verse from the New Testament. Uh -oh.

36:08

Uh -oh. Try and do it from the New Testament. You're going to have to go to the Torah to get the revelation from God against people having sex with animals, which let's be honest as Christians, when we say you shouldn't have sex with animals, why are we saying it?

36:21

Because God says. That's not God's order. God's spoken explicitly on this. So Christians do want

36:28

God's revelation of his instruction, of his Torah, of his law to be imposed upon society.

36:34

It's not a question because Josh wants it too. He fought with me in Georgia. He fought with us in Georgia.

36:40

He wants it too. It's a question to what extent? And that's where Josh and Virgil and the gang actually ask good questions.

36:48

They ask some good questions. So this is, I think this is better because I like how Josh did this. He did this more as a conversation as a brother.

36:55

That's why I appreciated him so much. And I just want to say to anybody, I don't do Twitter. I feel like it's a dumpster fire.

37:01

I know we have to start doing it now because it's probably the freest. It is. It's the freest platform there is now. So we're going to have to invest more in Twitter, but I haven't.

37:09

But I did hear from solid godly wise men that it's like a dumpster fire in this conversation right now.

37:14

People are being abusive to Josh. And I'm going to say, if you're being abusive to Josh, grow up and get some wisdom.

37:20

Stop being a knowledgeable fool and knowing a lot of stuff and not knowing how to behave in a wise way.

37:26

Josh did this and the guys did this. And I think a way on this show that brothers need to do it, asking good questions and saying, well,

37:33

I grant this, but I'm not so sure about this. Did it by asking questions real quick. I don't know if we're getting to this part of the conversation or not.

37:42

So I didn't want to lose this thought. But this is a really important conversation, because I think it's

37:47

Scott's the one that he brings it up later. He essentially says that the government should be legislating the moral law.

37:55

The second part. Second, second table. And and that's like it.

38:00

That's kind of his argument. And like you just said, that's why this is so important. It's like, OK, but there's a lot more going on in the end.

38:08

What about sex with animals? Yeah, exactly. What about what about gender? What about gender bending? That's exactly right. And so that's why we again, it goes back to by what standard.

38:15

So we can't just say we're only going to legislate these few items here. You know, when there's a whole plethora of things outside of that, we need to be able to speak to from an objective standard.

38:26

So exactly. Well, I mean, he takes his basis for that out of Romans 13 and the summary of the law and the list of the commandments there.

38:34

But remember, the avenger of God's wrath is the servant of Yahweh, not the servant of some other

38:40

God. And so therefore, the magistrate is required to not only punish public lawlessness, but promote the worship of the one true and living

38:47

God. He can't be the servant. He can't be the deacon of the one true God and promote idolatry.

38:53

Yeah. Amen. He can't do it. Not if he's Yahweh's servant. Right. If he's

38:58

Baal's servant or Zeus's servant, then that would be consistent. But God says that he's the servant of God, and he's been established and instituted by God and derives his authority from Yahweh.

39:10

And the point is, is related to that foundational truth. And what's truly exegetical about Romans 13 is the conversation that Josh just grants here.

39:20

It is the duty of the church to be prophetic here and go to the government and say, no, God says, and you must obey him.

39:26

It is the duty of the church to go to the government and say, you must obey Jesus. So it's granted.

39:32

Yes. The conversation is granted. We're all on the same ground. Again. Okay, let's go.

39:37

When you move forward, it's a question of, do you have plot holes? Okay. Right? In your story.

39:42

Let's check it. Yeah. We should see specific boundaries. And again, I think that that's where we start to get into some of the differences perhaps.

39:49

But the real critique that I've seen on social media is that we are like polar opposites and we don't agree on all these really big things or that we might embrace a loser theology.

40:02

Right. I disagree with that. Absolutely. I actually reject the idea that the choices that I have are either

40:10

Wolf's version of Christian nationalism or some man -beat, pan -beat, watered -down version of a

40:16

David French version. Absolutely. Christianity. Yeah. Those are not the two options that are on the table.

40:23

He's right. Virgil's right about that. Yes. Definitely, Virgil. Way to go. That's a proper way to defend against that.

40:31

You have this category, that category. That's it. And that's true. It's just a question of consistency.

40:38

That's all we're saying is a question of consistency. Because I would say you can also throw in a mix there between Wolf's position, which

40:44

I haven't read his book, but I've seen some stuff and heard some stuff and seen quotes. You have his, and you also have post -millennialism and theonomy.

40:53

Throw that in a mix. That might be another option valid. Let's get to 100 -proof Puritanism. Let's get to that.

41:00

Difference is what you just articulated, Josh. And that is we believe we ought to stand firm in the public sphere.

41:07

We ought to call our governmental leaders to repentance. We ought to tell them, kiss the sun, lest you perish in the way.

41:16

Now, what happens when they repent, though? That's kind of the question. There you go, brothers. That was beautifully said.

41:24

Yeah. I've preached sermons on that. Great usage of Psalm 2. And here's the deal. Ready? If you really believe that, if you really believe it, and it's the whole package, then you're going to have to get into this discussion of the law of God and what is the magistrate accountable to actually hold to and what's he supposed to wield the sword of justice based upon.

41:47

And so you've already granted the main point. We're all brothers in this. We're all unified in this. You've granted the main point that the rulers of our day today are required to obey

41:59

Jesus. And we're to tell them, you are required to obey Jesus. So the question then comes, ready?

42:06

If I grant what my brother says here, you are required to obey Jesus. The question then comes, is the whole way?

42:17

And everything? All that I have commanded. All that I've commanded. And what happens when the ready?

42:23

Let's say that you're in a state and there's this huge, just awakening. And all the legislators, the majority, the vast majority, 95 % of the legislators in your legislature are all professing

42:36

Christians and they bow to Jesus. And they say, look, we got to obey God rather than men. What kind of laws will they then start legislating?

42:45

And that's the question. What will a state look like when it's converted? That kisses the sun. When it kisses the sun and they obey

42:52

Jesus and they say, you know what, pastor, you're right. I'm obligated to yield to Jesus Christ.

42:58

So the question is, then they start coming to you going, all right, church, tell me. What's his word regarding this?

43:03

And that's not the church legislating. No. That's the church exercising its prophetic teaching role and saying, here's what the word of God says.

43:12

And that distinction always existed between the civil sphere and the ecclesiastical sphere, all the way back to the

43:19

Old Testament. But it was the prophetic realm. It was the prophets. It was the people of God.

43:24

It's the, of course, carried it through the New Testament church, were the ones speaking the truth and saying, here's the standard and pointing to it.

43:32

And a great counterpart to Psalm 2, because Psalm 2 has come up a lot in this discussion.

43:37

We're talking about kings of the earth, breaking apart the boundaries, right? The cords that God uses to restrain them, right?

43:45

Well, how do those cords get put back on? Right? Scripture has an answer for that.

43:50

If you read Psalm 149, it says, let the high praises of God be in their throats as the people of God, right?

43:57

The congregational people of God and the two -edged sword in their hands. To execute vengeance on the nations and punishments on the peoples, to bind their kings with chains and their nobles with fetters of iron, to execute on them the judgment written.

44:14

So what's the judgment written? What's the two -edged sword? It's the word of God. That is to be,

44:20

Christ and his claims are to be relentlessly pressed into every area of life, including in the life of the magistrate.

44:26

And the text says that that's the honor for all the godly ones. That's the honor that is reserved for God's people, the saints whom he's enlisted to participate with him in the advancement of the kingdom.

44:38

Because that's what it means. When the kingdom advances, it goes into a territory and the profession becomes

44:43

Jesus Christ is Lord. Wherever that's happened, you can safely say the kingdom has come there, right?

44:49

That's where the kingdom is. And so scripture says that the way that those cords of restraint, which they wholeheartedly endorse, right?

44:56

Government has to be limited. There has to be demarcations, spheres of authority. There are very limited, enumerated powers.

45:03

Well, how do those restraints get put back on the people of God? With the praises of God in their lips, the two -edged sword in their mouth, bringing to bear this upon them.

45:13

And that's honor. That's glory. That's the calling of the church to engage in that. That's how it happens.

45:19

The point of it is this, we see the message of salvation in our culture and in the church in recent history as a message of personal forgiveness and salvation.

45:30

But we've lost the concern that God and his Christ have for civil injustice in the streets.

45:37

That's the issue. And that God answers both problems, personal forgiveness and injustice in the streets with the same answer, the incarnation.

45:46

That's what Isaiah 59 tells us, right? So Isaiah 53 is the suffering servant and what Christ is going to do when he lays down his life, he's going to justify the men, he's going to bear their iniquity.

45:55

And then we get to Psalm 59, or Isaiah 59, all this injustice in the streets. And how does

46:00

God answer? He bears his holy arm and he himself comes down to deal with the problem because he sees that his people are absolutely, utterly incapable of accomplishing justice in the streets.

46:09

So what does he do? He bears his holy arm, he enters, he takes righteousness as a breastplate for himself, and he actually gets to work on making retribution in this fallen earth by bringing justice into the civil sphere.

46:22

And that's not a second coming prophecy. That is a present reality because of where Christ is located now and seated.

46:30

And he, guess what, has enlisted his people to execute vengeance on the wicked heathen nations by bringing the chains of restraint back on them through the preaching and proclamation of the word.

46:41

It's our participation with him in that effort. It's fire. How does it happen?

46:47

It's us partnering with him. Right, his bride, his helpmate. So the challenge, the very gracious nudge to my brother here is, great, okay, so we are supposed to tell the civil authorities that they are to obey the

47:02

Son or they'll perish. Kiss the Son or they'll perish. My challenge is this. I'm troubled that if you don't gain some consistency in this area, you may get to the point of gospel proclamation where the legislature says to you, we yield.

47:18

We'll do it. We'll obey the Son. Now what? And then you, look.

47:24

That's what we need to be thinking about. You got to start answering those questions because if you say, look, they're required to kiss the

47:29

Son or they're going to perish. What happens when you get to the legislature that says, great, we'll kiss him. We'll obey him.

47:35

Now what, Pastor? Is it a prospect in your system that that endeavor will ever be successful?

47:40

That's the key issue is, is this all wishful thinking? Is this just spinning wheels in mud?

47:48

Or do we believe it actually is something that Christ is going to accomplish? How many verses do you need from the

47:54

Old and New Testament that say that he is accomplishing it and will accomplish it? How about 1

47:59

Corinthians 15? How about every enemy under the feet of Jesus before he comes to destroy death?

48:05

All enemies under the feet of Jesus before death is destroyed. I'll go with that one. That he's presently putting all enemies under his feet and he's on his throne now.

48:13

That he's ruling now and he must reign until all enemies are under his feet. Is our ungodly governments enemies of Jesus Christ?

48:21

Is rape an enemy of Jesus Christ? Is every other injustice an enemy of Jesus Christ? Well then it's going under his feet.

48:28

And it's the Church that actually is a part of that process, is the helpmeet or the Bride of Christ, that brings it about as the means through the proclamation of his gospel and his word to the culture in the public square.

48:38

To stand against the denigration that's happening in our society, we agree with that completely.

48:43

And I believe this is a really important point to make, because we agree on so much.

48:50

We agree on the problems. We grieve over the same denigration of our society.

48:56

And we even strongly agree about standing firm and preaching the gospel and also preaching morality to our culture.

49:05

So there's this large segment of agreement. The disagreements then go beyond that.

49:13

And what we would say is that Christian nationalism wants more than that, more than just firmly standing for morality in our society.

49:22

I would say yeah, I would agree with that in terms of, again, this is not identifying as a Christian nationalist, but in terms of the intersection with what post -millennialists and theonomists have been saying, that's a good point to be made there, is that what do you do beyond the agreement if it actually happens?

49:41

Are we just supposed to be saying it because we don't believe that Christ is actually going to be victorious over it? Not yet. Because that's the main issue, is that, do you believe that we're supposed to do it because Christ is going to accomplish it, or do you believe that we're supposed to do it and fail?

49:56

Now, as much as I know that they want to resist the idea of, like, we're promoting failure and all the rest, that kind of is what was just said there, is that we're supposed to do it, but we shouldn't have any anticipation that it's actually going to accomplish anything.

50:08

One thing too, because the response to that from their side would be, well, it's for the glory of God.

50:14

Why do you need anything else? And I would say, well, yes and amen. It is unto the glory of God. But here's the thing, if it actually happens, which we expect it to, because we expect the word of God not to return void, but to accomplish the purpose for which he sent it, will that have or will it take visible expression in ways that we can see and observe?

50:34

And that's not to say that we're not still living by faith, and we trust in God's promises. Obviously, living during this time, we have to live by faith, because things are, you know, awful, culturally speaking.

50:43

Like, morally speaking, it's terrible. Even though the king is seated on his throne, and we look to him and we trust in him, even though we don't yet see all things in subjection to him, we see him, the author of Hebrews says.

50:52

But the point is, if those things actually take place, if there's repentance, if there's reformation, if there's revival, if there is a formal

51:01

Christian commitment and consensus on the part of a nation, here's the thing.

51:06

Is there a manifest expression? And does that look different than a pagan nation or a secular nation?

51:14

Oh, yeah, it ought to. It should, it must. Imagine the football team being called before the coach.

51:20

I'm going to use something that'll be good for you to understand. Let's see if you got the right sport here. The football team is called onto the field with the coach, and he's saying, all right, guys,

51:28

I want you to go out there and fight with all of your might. Give it all that you've got. You want to play as hard as you possibly can and do all the plays we've taught you.

51:35

You've trained for so long for this. Give it everything you've got and go there and defeat that team. And I absolutely 100 % guarantee you it's going to accomplish nothing.

51:43

And you should anticipate you're going to lose this, but go out there and fight and win. And I promise you lose.

51:50

Go! You feel like, hey, that's not good. I think that's why the renewed interest in this view of the future and the success of the

51:58

Great Commission and the gospel is because not that people just want to see the victory up front, but they want to know that they're ordinary.

52:05

The mom changing diapers at home wants to know that that faithfulness is actually producing something.

52:12

That this extends beyond just the Christian sphere or the institutional church.

52:19

People want to know and be encouraged that these things actually matter. And I'm sure that they would affirm that.

52:25

They do matter. But again, does it produce a difference in the world?

52:31

And is that a difference observable? Does it actually accomplish things in the world?

52:37

And can you see the difference? That's a good question. I think what makes me sad, to be honest, is we would all agree, obviously, that our nation was founded, our laws were founded, our constitution was founded primarily on the law of God, right?

52:52

Christian principles, yeah. And many, not, I'm not going to say all, but many of our initial legislators were professing

52:59

Christians, right? And so to go from that to this, where we're at today, where it's like, well, you know, should we?

53:05

They had rules even. You had to be baptized as a humanitarian Christian. And the opposite of it is, you mentioned it, North Korea.

53:11

That's what it looks like when people stop. Well, here's the argument. They threw off. Korea was known as the

53:18

Jerusalem of the East. It was an amazingly professing Christian nation. And you have the most stark contrast today with a satellite image of South Korea lit up,

53:28

North Korea in darkness. And what did North Korea do? What did their dictator do? He was the child of like Christian missionaries.

53:36

And when he goes communist and he gets into all that stuff, like what does he do?

53:41

The first thing he does is he actually bans Christianity. And he makes Christianity illegal.

53:46

And then they re -spin the biblical stories to be about him. He becomes Jesus. He is the son of God.

53:54

And all the 10 commandments are even re -spun in relation to the dear leader. And so that's precisely what you have to rid the world of is you have to rid it of the authority of Jesus Christ.

54:04

And Pastor Wang Yi in China, I've always said this. The Chinese government nailed it with Pastor Wang Yi.

54:11

They nailed it. He's in a dungeon now somewhere probably. Subverting the state. They said to him, you are being arrested.

54:16

You are charged with the subversion of the communist state, the Chinese communist state. Why? Because he preached the authority of Christ over the

54:23

Chinese government. And these guys would all agree. They would absolutely agree. He did exactly what he was called to do. Okay. He did exactly what he was called to do.

54:30

Right. And they recognize the problem. And the question again is this.

54:36

When he does what's right and professes the lordship of Christ over the Chinese communist party and that government, the question is, should we anticipate that that faithful proclamation will actually bring transformation?

54:48

And when it does, what will the government in China look like? Will they look like faithful followers of Jesus Christ and God's law or unfaithful ones?

54:55

Do you want legislators who profess faith in Jesus acting inconsistently with that? And here's the big question.

55:01

Ready? Over it all, is neutrality a myth or not? Is neutrality a myth or not?

55:07

Because if neutrality is a myth, then that means that legislatures cannot serve

55:14

Christ and not serve Christ at the same time. There you go. Yeah. And that's the issue. Yeah. Great point. Not only do we believe those things, we've demonstrated that we've done that.

55:23

Right. All along the lines of the issue of social justice. We had a statement on social justice called leaders within...

55:32

Josh, you spearheaded. Yeah. I mean, that's the irony here. Yeah. And in fact, the interesting thing about that is, you know, we had all sorts of brothers around the table.

55:40

We were having conversations. I've been hearing people talk about, well, you know, the first time I think I've heard of Christian nationalism is like two years ago.

55:48

And, you know, here we are in 2023 and they're like aiming like back to 2021. I would go back to 2018.

55:56

Yeah. The very first time that I heard this statement was as we were sitting at the table, we were talking about these things, leading up, having conversations.

56:06

I was hearing the term Christian nationalism being used then and needing some formation and, you know, specificity of definition, all of that.

56:18

But that's when I first heard it was back then. And so, again, it wasn't on my radar screen in the sense of the way it is now and in a sort of a movement or, you know, this popularity that we're seeing today.

56:33

But yes, we have not been those who, you know, shrink back and, you know, crawl up under pews and just pray, come quickly,

56:43

Lord Jesus. That's not our approach to dealing with problems in the public square. We're willing to take stands against abortion to try to pass bills, you know, that would basically outlaw all abortions in the state of Georgia, which we were leading in that charge, to try to figure out ways to even bring about justice for all, which would actually mean that those who engage in abortion are actually going to have to, you know, be punished as a result of this.

57:13

It's equal protection. We want the equal protection for the lives of the unborn as we do for those of us who walk around every day.

57:21

Absolutely. So again, this charge that we have, or that if you, anyone that stands against this specific form of Christian nationalism has a loser theology that should be, you know, in the same equation as Russell Moore and Tim Keller and David French, I would wholeheartedly disagree with that statement.

57:43

Yeah, I wanted to play that because they're right. And it's important for us to recognize that these guys are not the same as the person who does bury their head and say, it doesn't matter anyway, let it go to hell in a handbasket.

58:00

And why bother polishing brass on a sinking ship? They're not saying, they're not acting like that.

58:05

They're not doing that. And what they're bringing up there is the bill of equal protection that we brought into the state of Georgia. And they fought hard with us on that one.

58:12

And so what we would be saying is simply this, look, brothers, you have all the foundations there.

58:19

You're just not seeing the inconsistencies and you're not bringing it to its final end. And so we're gonna discuss this more and more.

58:26

We're actually gonna go to the after show in a second here. So if you are All Access partners with us, we're gonna go over to Apologia Studios and just continue this discussion over at Apologia Studios in the after show.

58:37

And so encourage you to sign up for All Access, partner with us in ministry. You make all this possible. All the evangelism videos that have happened over the last couple of months, engagement with Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, that has impact in the world.

58:49

You guys helped make that. You did it with us. And so we're gonna go over to the after show to be a blessing to all of our

58:54

All Access ministry partners, to have sort of a private time with you guys, continue this discussion. But Andy P.,

59:01

super chat. And do you think theonomy could result in better quality Christian art and entertainment in the next hundred years?

59:07

Music, video games, and books? Yes. Is that a simple enough answer? Yep. And what would you tell

59:16

President Trump or any politician if you could respond to his lackluster answer to abortion in the town hall last night?

59:22

I didn't see it. I didn't hear it either. I didn't see it. I'd like to look at it. Maybe we'll be able to pull that and respond to it.

59:28

And thanks for helping us to notice that, Andy. I'll take a look at that. I could just say ahead of time,

59:35

I would point out the inconsistencies wherever they were, and I would bring the law of God to bear.

59:41

I would just remind him of what he initially said when he asked this question a few years back. And he was right. He was trying to be consistent.

59:46

He was like, well, I guess there has to be some punishment. If it's murder, it has to be some punishment. Yeah. So is that all of our Super Chats? Yep.

59:52

All right. All right, guys. So I encourage you guys all again to go to Senate for All Access, continue the conversation with us over on ApologiaStudios .com.

01:00:01

Please go and check that out over there. We are delighted to be able to have this opportunity to do that with you guys. Also go to EndAbortionNow .com,

01:00:09

sign your church up, get connected, be a part of all the churches that are saving lives every day.

01:00:16

Outside of abortion mills around the world, be part of that movement, bring the gospel, call to repentance, offer help, hope, and love to mothers and fathers who are there.

01:00:26

Save these lives with us. Just help us to establish justice in these legislatures. Again, Alabama's Bill of Equal Protection was put in.

01:00:34

Pray that it gets into committee. Pray that it gets a hearing. And pray for us as we continue the work that we're doing to establish justice for the pre -born.

01:00:42

Love our brothers over at G3. So thankful for them. Truly thankful for them. Yes. We're going to head over to ApologiaStudios .com.

01:00:49

Come join us over there. If you didn't get your account for Bonson U yet, get it. It's free.

01:00:55

Train yourself, train your family, train your church. You're going to be blessed by that content.

01:01:00

Again, grateful for the Bonson family for entrusting that with us. That's Luke the Bear. Peace out. I'm Jeff. They call me the

01:01:06

Ninja. And that's Zach Conover, Director of Communications with EAN. Thank you guys so much for your love for us and your prayers.