January 19, 2024 Show with Claude Ramsey on “An Overview of the Book of Ezra”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com

This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 19th day of January 2024.

I'm absolutely thrilled to have back on the program a dear friend who is a returning guest his name is

Claude Ramsey and he is pastor of Reformata Baptist Church in Knoxville Tennessee and host of the

Here I Stand Theology podcast. Today we're going to be addressing the theme an overview of the book of Ezra and we're also going to be announcing the 2024 open -air theology conference in Tullahoma Tennessee on the theme why

Calvinism and my guest today pastor Claude Ramsey is one of the esteemed ministers on the roster on at that conference so we'll you'll be hearing more about that momentarily but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor

Claude Ramsey. Hello Chris thank you so much for having us back. And if you could let our listeners know more about Reformata Baptist Church in Knoxville Tennessee.

All right Reformata Baptist Church is a reformed Baptist Church the Reformata in Reformata Baptist Church is is the word the

Latin word for reformed really which comes from the the larger phrase

Ecclesia Reformata Semper Reformanda Secundum Verbum Dea which is the church reformed and always being reformed.

The church is we are in our 15th year as a congregation as a body we planted 15 years ago.

The congregation we have three elders myself in the pastor with two other elders and three deacons and the

Lord has just truly blessed the church over particularly over the last couple of years with with a lot of good families a lot of strong mature

Christian families at that so it's been it's been a great blessing thus far and we look forward to see what the

Lord's going to be doing in the future. Amen and if anybody wants more details on Reformata Baptist Church go to Facebook and type in Reformata which is

R -E -F -O -R -M -A -T -A Baptist Church and that will likely be the only thing that comes up.

Have you ever heard of another congregation with that name in the United States? No no not with not with just you know not with just the name

Reformata Baptist Church there are a few other Reformatas but they are they kind of go you know a little different route so we are unique in that.

And tell us about this conference coming up and it has quite an impressive lineup of speakers including my longtime dear friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries who is not only a speaker on the roster at the

Open Air Theology Conference but he is also going to be debating a brother named

Jason Breda and I can't remember if I'm pronouncing that correctly if it's Breeda or Breda but they are having a debate on definite atonement or otherwise called particular redemption and limited atonement and the theme is actually the reform doctrine of atonement is biblical and important that debate will be held

February 24th in Tullahoma Tennessee but the conference what are the exact dates of the conference because it begins before the debate

I believe. Yeah yeah so the the conference dates are the 21st through the 24th on the 21st actually let me look at my calendar here while I'm explaining this so the 21st actually there will be like a pre -conference it's gonna be with Jeremiah Nortier and Sam Frost and they're gonna be talking about the dangers of full preterism which you know

Jeremiah and Sam Frost both are highly intellectual guys they know the scriptures they know what they're talking about it will be a fantastic pre -conference so I would encourage folks to come out for that as well but as to the actual conference itself

I'll tell you what Chris I'll be and I'm being completely up front here straight up I mean

I feel like a kid going to a NFL game to get to see you know the big the big the big -time preachers preach because I mean it's it's

I mean they've got Andrew Rappaport he'll be preaching the first sermon and then they've got

Matt Slick added to the roster now. That's news to me I didn't know that.

Yeah yeah and so of course like you mentioned James White, Dr. Sam Waldron yes he's preaching not to mention not to mention

Jeff Braden, Brandon Scalf is another one of the preachers,

Dr. Michael Schultz you had you had him on I think or maybe you had him on here just here a while back in any case

I mean it it is fantastic if if last year was is any indicator of what this year is gonna be you you're not gonna want to miss it because the preaching was just phenomenal

I mean it was pure scripture preaching it was beautiful and then the the fellowship

I mean was just fantastic folks made new friends and hung out and it was just it was just a great environment.

And God willing I will be there I'm not a hundred percent sure I'll be there in fact nobody is a hundred percent sure because you don't know what plans

God but I am hoping to be there and I'm waiting on a very dear friend of mine who's actually a sponsor of Iron Trip and Zion Radio Brian McLaughlin of the secure calm group he is hoping to drive from Long Island New York pass through Pennsylvania pick me up and head to Tennessee together and I will give my audience updates on whether or not that is happening

I've interviewed most of the speakers that are on the lineup and anybody who is on the roster who is listening who

I have not yet interviewed please contact me at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

so I can make sure I interview everybody who is on this speaking roster and by the way you can also look up in the

Iron Trip and Zion Radio dot -com archive Claude mentioned

Sam Frost not long ago I I arranged a debate between Sam Frost and one of his former colleagues in ministry

Don Preston one of the leading names in the hyper preterist movement and as you know

Sam was at one time a hyper preterist before he repented of that very very dangerous theology and ideology and eschatology and so it was interesting to have

Sam debating Don who was very closely associated with Sam in ministry at one time so you could look that up you could just type in the search engine

Sam Frost or you could type in hyper preterism and you will find

I think it was a two -day debate between the two of them but oh my goodness two days well on my show it wasn't like it wasn't like in a public venue it was on my radio show so as you know two hours goes by real fast on the radio show with commercials so I'm gonna give our listeners our email address so that they can join us with questions of their own

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and we will broaden the theme of today's show to accommodate listeners who have pastoral questions because we do have a guest who is a pastor and so therefore you might have a personal and private question you want to ask him but other than that if you're just asking a general question on the book of Ezra give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence before we even delve into the specific book of Ezra if you could respond to the the growing notion that Christians don't really need the

Old Testament that that much at all it in fact Andy Stanley the son of the late

Charles Stanley is infamous for declaring publicly that the church needs to unhitch itself from the

Old Testament and many biblically solid people responded in protest and in rebuke and chastisement of Andy Stanley for making such a comment if you could tell us what why that is a wrong direction and why even the

New Covenant Church needs the Old Covenant Scriptures absolutely that's a fantastic question and so important and it's amazing how you know how this issue has been

I want to say even in some degrees not in reform circles but in a in the larger evangelical church circle kind of been

I think been brushed under the rug swept under the rug so the old in the

Old Testament is just as important as the New Testament and the answer to that to to the why of that is because it's the

Word of God as we've been teaching on Thursday nights we're teaching a group called passing the torch it's discipling young men who feel like they're being called to the ministry and one of the one of the things that we've been communicating here recently is this this statement here and it's basically that that Christ is in the

Old Testament concealed and in the New Testament he is revealed the

New Testament is types and shadows where it really we have where God has given his church he's he uses what what's what the

Old Testament is written in is a lot there's a lot of anthropomorphic terms which basically just means human language is used to describe divine things so we have the divine described in human fashion in the

Old Testament which points us as a and then in the

New Testament we have the basically the the commentary on the

Old Testament so folks will steer away from the Old Testament because they'll say it's it's vague it's hard to comprehend it's hard to make sense of but when we take what

God has given us in the New Testament the New Testament is that commentary to tell us what the

Old Testament is about and obviously they both point to Jesus Christ amen and obviously there is also the opposite danger of Judaizing there are there are professing

Christians and messianic movements who import too much of the

Old Covenant into the new and even even bind upon their followers adherence to ceremonial laws and things that were clearly fulfilled and brought to an end during the coming of Christ and his earthly ministry especially after his death burial resurrection and Ascension and so he may comment on that briefly as well well the when you go to the

New Testament again as as our commentary on that issue that was that was the pro one of the primary focuses of many of the letters to the churches it was that that many were kept trying to return to the law kept trying to return to Judaism they kept trying to return to a works -based faith and works -based salvation and what did the

Apostle Paul continually say these things will do no good they are done away with the

Old Covenant has passed away and in the in the magnum opus of the book of Hebrews right so in the book of Hebrews that's what it basically what it says in succinct terms it says look in Christ we have a better a better set of salvation we get there's a better covenant in the

New Covenant it's it's a better way right it's it's complete it's whole in Christ whereas under the law there's there's never that you never reach the goal because you can't ever attain the goal amen well

I know that you have been preaching a series on the book of Ezra and if you could tell us something about this historic figure this scribe and scholar in the

Old Covenant actually a direct descendant of Aaron the chief priest if you could tell us something more about him yeah absolutely so concerning concerning Ezra himself he was like you said a priest he was a scribe as Ezra chapters 7 verse 11 tells us it basically just says that Ezra the priest the scribe a man learned in the matters of the commandments of the

Lord and his statutes for Israel now what is unique about this book and this historical it's one of the historical books of the

Old Testament although it's full of prophecy and Christology eschatology you you've got it all particularly when you bring in the

Haggai and Zechariah sermons so you've got it all but what's unique about the book of Ezra I think that if most folks don't understand that the book itself spans

I mean anywhere from could be 90 to 120 years of course there's not an exact date on it but that book this short book the short book of Ezra Ezra doesn't even show up until the sixth or seventh chapter

I think it is right now I'm not looking directly at the text but and it's it's virtually been about 70 to 80 years since the children of Israel returned to Jerusalem that Ezra shows up but God has provided for them direction encouragement strength through his spirit and through his word that came through Haggai and Zechariah so it's really a fantastic book full full of good information and good spiritual knowledge for the church amen well go through step by step the primary reasons that you wanted to discuss this the primary reasons why this is an important book even for the

New Testament people of God and the primary ways that we can benefit from understanding this book absolutely

I will do my best here sir so so number one I would say the chief purpose and reason for us as a body at Reformation to go through the book of Ezra verse by verse expositionally because number one it leads us to worship the

Lord it leads us to worship God because of his faithfulness and because of his sovereignty and number two if there was a secondary primary secondary primary reason if you would have it that way it would be for this because what we what we're doing in looking at the book of eggs

Ezra itself is gaining a a contextual knowledge of what was taking place when the children of Israel came back not only just the conditions right that they were coming back to but the who were the

Kings what what went down basically the challenges and the obstacles that they faced and then it would be that had the third focus would be to understand the significance and the importance of the preached

Word of God because what so often many you know preaching is relegated to something that not necessarily everybody's looking for when they go to a church a lot of folks will look for children's programs they'll look for good good singing or they'll look for this or they'll look for that but preaching should be at the center in preaching should be the focus of the worship time when the church gathers on the

Lord's Day on Sundays amen and that is a primary reason why many not all but many of the reformers but Puritans and their descendants even architecturally moved the

Lord's table where Rome had it at as the place of prominence because of their idolatrous practice of the mass at being the the primary thing the those following the principles of the

Reformation and the Puritan era which we believe to be biblical of course the prominence is in the center where the pulpit is the the proclamation of the

God -breathed inerrant word from that pulpit and therefore you typically in a reformed church the

Lord's table will be on the same level with the people below the pulpit but the pulpit has been moved to the center now

I'm not saying that architectural positions and things like that have any kind of vital and required obedience because it's not specifically a biblical thing to even

I'm not even sure that the word pulpit is in the Bible maybe you can correct me but but it does show you that there was a move of God's people to recognize that the proclamation of the word should be the focal point am

I overstepping here no no no I think that's exactly right and as far as as far as the pulpit phraseology goes actually in Nehemiah let me look that up real quick here while you're doing that I'm gonna give our listeners our email address while you're looking that up yeah

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com gives your first name at least city and state and country of residence go ahead yeah so in Nehemiah which is basically you know it's the companion book so in in Ezra the the temple is rebuilt in Nehemiah the broken -down walls are rebuilt in and worship is restored but in in Nehemiah chapter 8 but I'll read from 5 so we get a little context but so the scripture says when the seventh month came the children of Israel were in their cities now all the people gathered together as one man in the open square that was in front of the water gate and they told

Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses which the Lord had commanded Israel so Ezra the priest brought the law before the assembly of men and women and all who could hear with understanding on the first day of the seventh month then he read from it in the open square that was in front of the water gate from morning until midday before the men and the women who could understand in the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the law so Ezra the scribe stood on a platform of wood which they had made for the purpose so so we see there that he and then he stood above all the people all the people stood when he opened it and Ezra blessed the

Lord the great God so yeah some translations actually use the term pulpit there which is pretty it's pretty awesome really it's a good principle it's a good pattern because basically it was just a way of setting you know setting the the the priest yeah the priest or the minister above the people not in a sense that he's better but in the sense that it's an elevation of the

Word of God right I love the name that has been given to the pulpit the sacred desk amen so pray

I would say this you know preaching matters preachings been the means by which God has proclaimed his word throughout history

I mean we have it set forth in the old in the Old Testament and in the

New Testament we see that the the preaching and not just preaching anything

William Perkins said that that the scriptures are to be the exclusive subject of preaching so when we think of preaching we ought not ever to think of anything else as Christians I think our mind ought to go to the proclamation of the

Word of God I mean we have the proclamation beginning in Genesis right when Adam and Eve sin and fail in Genesis 315 the

Lord told him I'll put enmity between you and the woman your offspring and her offspring he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel that's referred to as the proto

Evangelion right so that that was a looking forward to Christ and if in in the

New Testament a New Testament counterpart in a significant verse that teaches us the importance of preaching 2nd

Peter chapter 4 or chapter 2 verse 4 and 5 I believe it is let me make sure

I'm quoting this correctly for if God did not spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment and if he did not spare the ancient world but preserved

Noah in the scripture refers to Noah as a herald of righteousness with seven others when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly that word herald means preacher a proclaimer of of the the news the

Word of God so it's always been the means through which God's called sinners to repentance in salvation amen and we're going to our first commercial break if anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own submit it to Chris Arnson at gmail .com

give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence we'll be right back with Claude Ramsey and his overview of the book of Ezra right after these messages from our sponsors do not go away

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Royal Diadem dot -com and make sure you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio we're now back with Claude Ramsey pastor of Reformata Baptist Church in Knoxville Tennessee and we are giving an overview of the book of Ezra if you have a question please submit it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence before you go into some more of the particulars of the book of Ezra I think that a listener question that really is hinging on something that you said earlier would be an important question to ask pretty much at the earliest point possible in the conversation we have

Gustav in Duval Washington who says can you please differentiate between preaching and teaching and or between preaching and lecturing and one thing that I'm gonna ask you to and in addition to Gustav's question is wouldn't you say that preaching always involves teaching but teaching does not always involve preaching

I think that was perfectly phrased right there and that's the truth so to to the question which was a fantastic question and again to refer to what you said mr.

Arnzen absolutely true there so Martin Lord Dr. Martin Lord Jones said this preaching is logic on fire it's one thing to simply communicate biblical information or information of any kind and just leave it at that kind of kind of passionless communication of knowledge that would be lecture where there's there's no emotion it's just kind of a rote reading of what you have before you and then you sit down and you're done but preaching is is and really it goes into this really so I had this set up to talk about in this next section it's it's the difference between experiential theology and intellectual theology so Gustav I would say you can have an intellectual knowledge of God but you must also have an experiential knowledge of God just to know that you must be born again is one thing but to be born again is another thing and so in when you're born again

I mean we take we can take the I mean the and I'll use physical illustrations from the scripture

I mean think about the man blind from birth who Jesus took and spit in the mud and wiped it on his eyes and told him to go wash in the pool of Siloam and the scripture says he came again seeing and there was a big deal made about that the

Pharisees wanted to say this and that there was a big hubbub to do with it and what happened though that man who had been blind who had no experience with sight was now able to see and it was simply because of Jesus Christ and for no other reason so the the preaching of the gospel should be and I'll say this and again there are different styles there's nothing wrong with a quiet lecture style preacher if he is preaching if he is preaching when proclaiming the scriptures verbatim word for word then as a

Christian we can't help but say amen and hallelujah to it but when a man preaches the scriptures word for word verbatim truth for truth idea for idea and he does it with passion it what it happens is it makes a connection it makes connection with the congregation it makes a connection with the hearers and it's it's almost like and I know it sounds weird and it's maybe a lame excuse but it's like a conduction of electricity in one sense right where where the congregation the hearers of the preacher who is preaching with passion and zeal and fervor really understands in knows that the man who's preaching to them has had had has had is has been born again and it has experienced the power of God in their lives and so they can they can kind of trust what they're hearing and kind of go with that so the difference between a lecture in preaching it is that the the heat is turned up in the the emotion is ramped up and I know emotion doesn't make the sermon but it certainly is helpful yes in fact

I am speaking with right now a man who certainly has a gift for passionate preaching of the gospel you will never visit

Reformata Baptist Church and hear a dry lifeless sterile impotent sermon there pastor

Claude combines the fire of his passion to see the lost come to Christ and also to see

Christ's children edified with the solid teaching of the word and both both

I believe are important if a man truly believes in what he's saying and he believes that these teachings from the scripture have eternal consequences

I don't know how he is I don't know how he could be passionless and I know that there are a minority of reformed people at least those that profess to be that are actually intentionally not being emotional when they preach because they think it's a manipulation of the emotions and there are people who do that there are people in charismatic

Pentecostal and other circles maybe even fundamentalist Baptist circles who do use emotion to manipulate people but we're not talking about that we're talking about a herald of the gospel if he really believes that if his message is rejected people will spend an eternity in hell there's got to be some kind of emotion there and in sometimes men of God who are soft -spoken are still emotional when they preach yes and they have passion even though they're soft -spoken yes and so to to kind of round off that answer for Gustav I would say this that the to put it in a succinct statement

I would say the knowledge of God disconnected from experience does nothing for a person other than other than giving them enough knowledge to go to hell with a head full of information but the knowledge of God connected to experience is life in its

Liberty to the one that the Lord calls to salvation amen and if you could move on to the next important element of the book of Ezra that we should be retaining in our minds and hearts so I would say

I would say the next important element that we need to retain is again to understand the importance of preaching in the role of preaching so the role of the preacher as William Perkins taught in his work the art of prophesying in the call to ministry the role of the preacher is to gather the elect together so concerning the book of Ezra and when we just think of the sheer mass the numbers that came in the first wave of the exile from Babylon to back to Jerusalem to begin the rebuilding process the scripture says they were forty two thousand three hundred and sixty people in that first wave forty two thousand three hundred and sixty besides their male and female servants who were seven thousand three hundred and thirty seven now with without the heralding the proclamation of the word to gather and to focus the

Saints I can imagine that this must have been a lot like trying to herd cats have you ever heard that before no yeah so you know if you've got a you've got several cats in a room they're not gonna be like cows where they're all gonna go together and run together they're gonna run every which way so you could imagine having forty three thousand or forty two thousand three hundred and sixty people on top of seven thousand with their servants trying to get them focused and centered on a in one mind in one accord in unity and so in Ezra that's exactly that's exactly what takes place with the preaching of the

Word of God by a guy by Zachariah and by are you still there brother you cut off that we see yeah you hear me now yeah you can for some reason you just very momentarily very quickly cut off if you could clarify something not that we want an elaborate answer but you were

I believe you were quoting William Perkins and you used the phrase prophesy and this is not to be misunderstood in the

Pentecostal or charismatic sense William Perkins are you there brother you cut out again

I'm sure why you're cutting out bro are you there Claude are you there huh this is something there's something strange happening folks

I apologize I don't know why my guest I cannot hear him at all

I don't know if he hears me but I I think that we may have to have him re -log in to the

Microsoft Teams link that we are using to conduct this interview I apologize

I don't know if you can hear me Pastor Claude but I am going to go to an early commercial break and during this break we will try to re -establish a good connection with Pastor Claude Ramsey this is the longer break in the middle of the show because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

FM in Lake City Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the

FCC requires of them to localize geographically Iron Trump and Zion Radio to Lake City Florida where the radio station is located they do that with their own public service announcements and other local things while we simultaneously air our

Globally Heard commercials so please use this time wisely and write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can and also send in your questions to Claude Ramsey to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence and we seem to have a stat reestablished connection

I don't know what happened Claude I'm not sure I'm literally not sure yeah well the internet is a strange place why don't you technically we have four minutes before we're supposed to be going to the midway break so why don't you why don't you go to complete your point that you were making okay okay so the significance of the book of Ezra early on we had the number the large number of the folks who came in the first wave of the exile from Babylon to back to Jerusalem and the significance of the preaching of the word that how

God used Haggai and Zechariah's sermons to focus almost as if if you could imagine you know when when a child may get frantic or out of control or an adult gets out frantic or out of control there's sometimes a a need to kind of hold them get right in front of them hold them by the face and turn their face to yours so that they hear exactly what you're saying and are able to focus on what's what's being spoken that's basically that's basically what what

I see the Lord doing through the preaching of the prophets through Haggai and Zechariah with the people of God keeping them focused on their task at hand and that was rebuilding the temple okay you could move on to the next point because we do have time before we go to the midway all right all right again

I apologize for that silence earlier I'm not sure what happened there but so I would say

I would say next again one that's just another one of the primary and significant things that we see is the sovereignty of God how that God sovereignly used

Kings and kingdoms to accomplish his purpose and his will in history particularly concerning the vast number of years that was is spanned by the book of Ezra the book of Ezra can be read in 30 minutes but the time span that's covered in the book of Ezra is 90 to 120 years so I mean what we're what we're seeing when you read the book of Ezra in a sitting is just a microcosm of of a big a big series of events that the

Lord has orchestrated and worked all things according to the counsel of his own will so the the child of God can take great courage and take great confidence that even when things aren't working according to our timeframe on our time frames or on our schedules that God is still in control of things and that God is still working all things for the good of those who love him and are the called according to his purpose amen all right well we'll go to our midway break now and I'm not going to save my whole spiel again you already heard me you heard me already heard me warn you that's gonna be longer than the other break so please be patient and we'll be right back with more of Claude Ramsey on his overview of the book of Ezra Puritan Reformed is a

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and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in your questions to Pastor Claude Ramsey on the

Book of Ezra. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

If you could, Pastor Claude, continue on to the next vital aspect of the

Book of Ezra that you want our listeners to remember today. Absolutely. And again,

I want to take a moment here too before I do that, Chris, just because you're always on your faithful regular every day and I just want to take a minute to let your hearers know that we appreciate you and the work that you do.

For it's tireless. I know you've got to get weary at times, so I just want to let you know that I love you.

I appreciate you publicly on air, so I just wanted to say that. I really appreciate it, brother. So, you know, back to the

Book of Ezra. Really, again, overview as far as just looking at it. Again, moving on, there was a period of about 18 years after the altar was raised up that there was kind of a, there was a stagnation in the work.

Folks really got kind of sidetracked because of all the drama that was brought about.

There were folks, Tatnai, a guy named Tatnai, a guy named

Shitarbosnai, they were sending letters to the king trying to stop the work. And as I mentioned before the break, the significance that we see the sovereignty of God at work, and what we see in Ezra, too, is the importance of historical documents.

And because, you know, we've gone through a period of time, particularly just over the past several years, where everybody wants to try to erase history and just kind of make their own.

But what we see in the Book of Ezra is that when

Shitarbosnai and Tatnai tried to appeal to Darius to get the work to cease on the temple, what the first thing that Darius did was had a search of their archives made.

And he went back to the historical documentation where King Cyrus, another, by the way, all the kings during the period of Ezra, none of them were godly, but the

Lord used them for his glory and for his honor. So Darius appealed to history to see what was going on rather than kind of just stepping out doing his own thing.

And what he saw that providentially the record was there that God commanded

Cyrus to let the children of Israel go back and he commanded them to build the temple of God.

And so what happened with Tatnai and Shitarbosnai, their plan kind of backfired on him because King Darius basically told them, look, this has been historically set and fixed and so this is something that's going to be accomplished.

And not only is it going to be accomplished, but Darius reminded Tatnai and Shitarbosnai that it was going to come out of their pocket, basically, that it was going to come out of their funds.

That God, you know, was providing for the church in the wilderness just as he provides for the church today.

That God provides for his own, that his faithfulness is incomparable.

So and next I would say this, I would say that and something else that's very significant throughout the book of Ezra is how that we see

God through the preaching of the Word constantly restore and encourage the spirit of the

Saints. God used, how God used the preaching of the Word, bringing his message to the people, focusing their hearts and their minds and how

God used that and how the scripture puts it, how that the Lord stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel, how that the

Lord stirred up the spirit of Joshua, the son of Jehoshadak, and how the Lord stirred up the people of God.

And again, it's so sad sometimes,

Mr. Aronson, to consider how so many in the church world today seemingly think that they can do without the preaching of the

Word. When it's the God -ordained ordinary means of grace, one of the ordinary means of grace, you know, we have the preaching and the teaching and the reading of the

Word, the communion, and we have prayer, and we have the fellowship, we have those ordinary means of grace, but how so often so many just neglect that.

And if they would just take advantage of it, I mean, my goodness gracious, because there are plenty of pastors across this land of ours who faithfully and regularly study and prepare to feed the flock, but the flock don't have an appetite for the

Word of God. It's sad. Yes, it is sad, and I encounter folks very often, and have ever since I've been a

Christian, who think so highly of themselves that they don't believe they have a need to be a member of a specific local church and to be under the oversight of its leaders.

They will make excuses that aren't even true, like the Bible doesn't teach anything about church membership.

That's a falsehood. How are we supposed to obey those who have watch over our souls unless we are a member of a church?

As much as I love you, Pastor Claude, you don't have watch over my soul, my pastors do.

And so, in other words, I can't just have favorite preachers that I love listening to on sermon audio and YouTube and so on, and just sit at home and not be connected to the church, not be a member of the church, not be an active participant in the church, and not be under the oversight of its elders.

This is sin, isn't it? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. It is.

And what I think, I mean, it's akin to this. I mean, we think, and I'm not making a direct correlation, of course, to the to the prodigal son here, but what the prodigal son in the in the

New Testament accounting, what we do see is that he came to the place where he realized that he had it better back home with his father in his father's house than he had it going out on his own and trying to do things on his own because he found himself eating, the

Scripture says, the husks which the swine did eat. So he found himself eating slop when he could have had a homemade meal every single, every single night, every single day.

And the churches of the Lord Jesus Christ, who have faithful pastors and faithful under shepherds and elders overseeing the body, they are, they are providing that for their congregations.

And the congregation should should make every effort to, in truth, take advantage of that in a good way and make the most of the the the good preaching of the

Word that's done by so many faithful men of God across the land. Okay, we have a question from Salem in Steward, Illinois, or Illinois's, depending upon where you live.

And Salem has a very good question.

Early on, you were saying that William Perkins, when he was using this term prophesy, was not speaking in the same sense that Pentecostals and Charismatics do today.

But was not Ezra, your main theme today, prophesying when he preached, in the sense that he was receiving revelation?

I would have to say yes, because his words are in the Bible, and that's a part of the canon that is

God -breathed, right? Yes, absolutely. And so this comes down to accurately defining, it's a great question,

Salem. This comes down to accurately defining terms in our world. When we set out to teach this class, by the way, on Thursday nights, you can go to Passing the

Torch on Facebook and get in on this class, it's absolutely free. But the art of prophesying, it's returning to understanding what prophecy is, right?

So prophecy itself relates specifically and points to Jesus Christ.

So this is, again, a great question, and I'm so thankful that I'm so prepared to answer this, because,

Salem, prophecy can be defined like this. Let me give you the full definition of prophecy here.

So prophecy is divine, or a discourse... Uh -oh, we've lost

Claude again. Are you there, Claude? I don't know what's up.

...declares the purpose of God. Can you hear me? Now I can. Okay, yeah, so prophecy is discourse that emanates from divine inspiration and declares the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or by comforting the afflicted, or revealing things that are hidden.

So the purpose of prophecy in the Old Testament was to point to Christ.

This goes back to the very first question that you brought up, Mr. Arnson, was the significance of clinging to both the

Old and the New Testaments, right? Because in the Old Testament, what we have is prophecy.

Prophecy that points to Christ, points to the coming of Christ, and even points further to eschatological realities of the end time, when

Christ comes back, and the new heavens and the new earth are brought in, and those things.

And so in that, in the Old Testament, we have literally true prophecy, because it points to Christ.

In the book of the Revelation, Revelation chapter 19, verse, actually particularly verse 10,

Revelation 19 and verse 10, the angel that's showing

John this revelation, it's at the marriage supper of the Lamb, and he says, I fell down in his feet to worship him, but he said to me, you must not do that, for I'm a fellow servant with you and your brothers, who hold to the testimony of Jesus.

And he said this, worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

So when we, when we talk about prophecy, in the biblical sense, we're talking about And you're going again,

Claude. It's about in the Old Testament, to the Apostles in the New Testament, and he spoke lastly, as we have in it.

And you're going again. Can you hear me, Claude? Ladies and gentlemen,

I was just gonna say, a part of the reason that we are frequently losing our guests, the connection, may have something to do with the snowy weather here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

I'm not certain of that, but I'm just letting our listeners know that could be the reason, because it is snowing outside right here, and I'm just as puzzled as many of you may be, but hopefully that will not be as frequent as it was where we are losing connection.

But if you could continue, Claude, I'm sorry. No, that's okay, that's okay. So again, in answering

Salem's question, so if the Scriptures tell us that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, the testimony of Jesus is the true account of Jesus, who he is, and that is the spirit of prophecy, that is what makes up prophecy.

So as Christians, we should hold to a biblical definition of prophecy and not understand prophecy to be what it has been made to be in many denominations, as though it's some kind of a new word from God, because it's not a new word from God, it's the

Word of God reiterated and reinforced and spoken through the written

Word itself and affirmed by the Holy Spirit of God.

So it's very, very important when we talk about that, and the reason that William Perkins uses this terminology is because it was written in the 1600s, and it was just a very straightforward speaking, you know, in teaching of the

Word of God without a need to nuance explanations, because they weren't necessarily encountering the many facets of false teaching that we incur today.

Amen. And we have a listener named

Gwendolyn, and this is the first time I've ever heard of this city here in my new home state of Pennsylvania, Vanilla, Pennsylvania, and Gwendolyn says, when we are reading the

Scriptures and we come to a belief that we've never heard before, should that be something that we automatically reject as a false teaching?

That is another fantastic question, and I will...

And we've lost our guest again. Hopefully he will be popping back in any second.

Hello, Pastor Claus. Now, yes. Okay, we lost you again.

Yes, sir. But you continue. Okay, okay. So to repeat there, so just because what you hear seems to be a new idea, you don't necessarily have to write it off immediately, but do immediately go to the

Bible. Do immediately go to the text of Scripture. Actually, Gwendolyn was saying that if you are reading the

Bible and you come to believe something that you've never heard of anybody else teaching, so she's starting off with the

Bible there. Okay, I apologize. I misunderstood. That's all right, because they're both serious issues.

You may be hearing from your pastor, who may be one of these guys that thinks he has some kind of insight to the

Scriptures that nobody else in the world has ever had. Like Harold Camping, for instance. And that could even be more dangerous.

But in the reverse way, you may want to go to your pastor, since this person is saying that they're coming up with the idea from the

Bible. You might want to go to the pastor and say, you know what, I've thought of this. Because, in fact, just because this person's never heard about it before, doesn't mean that many people of good standing in the church for centuries haven't believed that this person might not be an expert on church history or something.

Exactly. And that's what I would add to that, would be, like you said, go to your pastor if you if you've come up with a thought or an idea from a reading of the text.

Go to your pastor. Go to your elders. And then, if you've got access and you like to read, one of the best things that you can do is research church history.

Google the idea. Just type your idea into the

Google machine, as the old -timers, we say it. Type it into the Google machine and see what the

Google machine tells you. Because what you'll find a lot of times is that just because you've not heard it, it doesn't make it, just because it sounds new, doesn't mean it is new.

Because you'll find that it'll either be proven to be true by church history or proven to be false by church history.

An example of that is, I have heard the testimonies of many people who became believers in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace while they were doing private reading and study of the

Bible. They didn't know that anybody believed their conclusions that they came to on predestination, unconditional election, and so on.

And then they later had those things confirmed by good, solid pastors and by great men of history.

So that does happen. Absolutely. I mean, it is a reality.

But never just take off running with an idea. Always test it.

And I believe, Gwendolyn, that you are a first -time questioner, since that city definitely jumped out at me,

Vanilla, Pennsylvania. And please give us your full mailing address, because you have won a free

New American Standard Bible, as do all our first -time questioners. So if anybody else sent in a question today and you're the first time, you're a first -time questioner, please send me your full name and mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

can ship out to you a free New American Standard Bible. We're going to be going to our final break right now, and if anybody has a question, send it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages. I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

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Welcome back, and folks I want to remind you, you've been hearing ads every single day for years now for the

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Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, a dear friend of mine since the early 1990s.

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Also folks, I want to remind you, if you're a man in ministry leadership, you are invited to my next free, biannual

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon to be held on Thursday, June the 6th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is

Perry County, Pennsylvania. And our guest speaker for the very first time ever is

Dr. Joel Beakey, founder and president of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

I hope that as many of you listening will attend this free luncheon, and not only is admission free, and not only is your lunch free, and not only will your time of feasting on the

Word of God and feasting on delicious lunch and having a joyful time of laughter, fun, and fellowship with colleagues in ministry be free, everyone who attends also receives a very heavy sack of free brand -new books, personally selected by me and donated by very generous

Christian publishers throughout the United States and the United Kingdom. So please mark your calendars for Thursday, June 6th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. You can register for free by sending me an email to chrisarendsen at gmail .com,

chrisarendsen at gmail .com, and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line.

This luncheon always is being conducted in loving memory, in an honor and tribute to my precious late wife,

Julie, who started these luncheons way back in the 1990s on Long Island before I relocated to Pennsylvania.

So this is a precious gift that she has given me to give to you who are men in ministry leadership.

So I hope to see as many of you there as possible. Well, I would like you to pick up where you left off,

Pastor Claude, and let us know about another very significant aspect of the book of Ezra that will benefit the church today.

All right, so the benefit for the church today I would take from it just to jump over to chapter 9 and this,

I know this will probably be the last section there, but in chapter 9 I want to read a section of that.

And so the scripture says in Ezra 9 verse 8, And now for a little while grace has been shown from the

Lord our God to leave us a remnant to escape and to give us a peg or a nail in his holy place, that our

God may enlighten our eyes and give us a measure of revival in our bondage.

For we were slaves, yet our God did not forsake us in our bondage, that he extended mercy to us in the sight of the kings of Persia to revive us, to repair the house of our

God, to rebuild its ruins, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem.

So historically we find in closing here that yes,

God was faithful, that God made provision, and God provided for his church, for that was the

Old Testament church, is the church, the church in the wilderness. And so to that, how that can encourage us today is very much like this, that just as God cared for his church then,

God cares for his church today. And God provides for his people, particularly the spiritual food and the spiritual drink that we need, that is given us in Jesus Christ, that we learn and know of him through the

Scriptures, and that our hearts and our minds, that we go through places and times in our lives where we are distraught, where we're downcast, where we're broken, but where when the

Word of God comes, the Word of God is not only a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces, but the

Word of God is oil that mends the heart and the mind, that brings peace and comfort in the midst of turmoil and trouble and destruction.

So my encouragement for the listeners today concerning this book of Isaiah ultimately is that it sets forth

God's, yes, Ezra, God's providence and God's faithfulness.

Amen. And we have a listener whose name I absolutely love,

Judson, in Lloyd Neck, New York, and I wonder if Judson was named after Adoniram Judson, the great 19th century

Baptist preacher. You never know. Maybe you could let us know, Judson. But Judson says, can you recommend any commentaries on the book of Ezra?

Yes. Actually, one that I've really grown familiar with, particularly this past year as we've been, as we prepare and preach through the book of Ezra, is the

Reformed Expository Commentary, Reformed Expository Commentary. So particularly for Ezra, let me look here just to make sure that I'm telling you correctly, let me look at my pages.

Yes, so for Ezra, the Reformed Expository Commentary, Derek Brooks, this is kind of a running joke at the church, it has been since we've started, because when

I make a quote from this commentary, I always want to call him

Derek Brooks. I said that wrong. I always want to call him Derek Brooks, but it's Derek Thomas, the theologian

Derek Thomas. So it's not Derek Brooks, the linebacker that used to be a linebacker, but it's

Derek Thomas, the theologian. But the Reformed Expository Commentary is a fantastic commentary, and of course,

I mean, there are, there's one other that I have that has a few numerous that's got a, it's got a

Calvin commentary in it. Calvin's commentary is very good, and another of the old, one of the old commentators,

John Gill. John Gill is very good. So yeah, but for the most practical and easy to read and really just chock full of information at the same time would be that Reformed Expository Commentary.

And you can actually get the Reformed Expository Commentaries from solid -ground -books .com,

solid -ground -books .com, and mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And before I take any more listener questions, I would really like you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today that you want them to leave with after this program is over.

Number one primary thing is know if you have been born again, or if not, you must be born again.

That's it. That's the bottom line. The Scriptures teach us that we have, that our sins have separated us from God.

Of course, we're born in sin. We can't outrun it. We can't avoid it.

It's a reality in our lives. But the good news is that even in the midst of our sin, that Christ died for our sin.

And the Scripture says that he died for our sin, that he was buried on the, that he was buried, and on the third day that he arose from the dead.

And then after that, he ascended to the Father where he ever lives to make intercession for the saints of God.

And there is a very real day that will come. We don't know when, but it will come when

Christ will come back. The Scripture says the dead in Christ shall be raised first, and then we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with him in the air.

So the main thing that you could take away from this interview is, is if, that you have not heard

Jesus Christ proclaim, there would be a big problem. Amen.

Well, we do have time for some more questions, and one of them is a very important question.

It's from an anonymous listener who asks, if the Old Covenant people of God could be saved without knowledge of Jesus Christ specifically, how can those who are alive today not be saved as well, even if they do not know of Jesus Christ, as long as they believe in the same

God of the Old Testament as the patriarchs and the Hebrew people believed in?

That is a fantastic question, and a large question, but I would answer it like this.

I would say that the Old Testament saints were saved by looking forward to Christ because it is

Christ that was proclaimed in the Old Testament that was pointed to. So it was the promise of Christ that the

Old Testament saints were saved looking forward to Christ, even though that the actual propitiation, the actual atonement for sin wasn't made until Christ came, but it was still, it was still that promise that they look forward to in the person of Jesus Christ, and that's how they were saved.

Just as today, folks, look back, we look back to the cross and we're saved, but either way, if you're looking at it from the

Old Testament or if you're looking at it from the New Testament, we're both looking at Christ, and so it is

Christ where salvation is. Amen. And we have

Todd in Allentown, Pennsylvania, who says, what, in your opinion, is the most vital book of the

Old Covenant that Christians should be thoroughly knowledgeable with? I would say

Isaiah would be one of the primary books. We have a lot of prophecy concerning Christ, so if you really wanted just to focus on one,

I would say, personally, Isaiah, because there's so much there that points us to Christ.

I'm assuming Genesis would have to be one of them. Oh yeah, well, again,

I was just trying to be specific to the question there, but yes, I mean, it would be wrong to really say one above the other, but if we had to pick one, yeah.

Isn't it interesting, going back to Isaiah, that the Jewish people, the Orthodox Jews, not liberal

Jews who don't believe in the Hebrew Scriptures at all, but those that believe that these are inerrant,

God -breathed words, Yahweh's words to them, that they get very frightened when it comes to Isaiah 53, because of its clear description of a prophecy of Jesus Christ and his death on behalf of his people.

Isn't that amazing how, even in the 21st century, they avoid that at all costs?

Yes, it's a denial of truth, and it's willful rebellion against God.

Mm -hmm. And I know this is going to be a very controversial statement, but there are people who falsely believe and heretically believe that if you are

Jewish, you do not need to believe in Jesus Christ as your only hope for salvation, your only

Lord, God, Savior, and King, your only Messiah. And they seem to believe that it is some kind of an ethnic birthright of Jewish people to inherit heaven.

And this is very dangerous, because Judaism has long departed even from the

Hebrew canon, as far as its actual teachings. I mean, of course,

Orthodox Jews may carry on many of those teachings, but there are crucial things that they reject, and many of the things they believe are modern inventions—well, not necessarily modern inventions, but non -canonical inventions of rabbis, like the

Talmud. Yes. So we can—I agree.

And it's not anti -Semitic to say that Jews need to embrace Christ to be saved.

No, it's biblical. It's biblical. I mean, you read—anybody can read—you can't read the book of Galatians and not come away with that idea.

And you're right, it is seemingly controversial. Nonetheless, it is the truth, and that of the fact that, as the

Apostle Paul made clear in Romans and Galatians, that it's not just because you're of the bloodline of Abraham, or born into an

Israelite family, that you're in the family of God, but it's—has your heart been circumcised?

And that heart circumcision is the new birth, and it doesn't matter what race, creed, color, religion, whatever.

If you've not been born again, you are not saved, despite Jewish or not

Jewish. Right, and the patriarchs and the prophets of the Old Covenant did not even believe, or teach, that every

Jewish person was saved and safe in the hands of God, just because of their ethnicity.

That's exactly right. And Mr. Arnson, that's why earlier, when

I was talking, when I made that specific reference, you know, that's the view of the

Church, biblically, is that, again, that God's Old Testament redeemed,

God's Old Testament chosen people, we're the Old Testament Church. And the New Testament Church is not a separate entity.

It's not two separate destination points for the history of God's people.

It's one. The Old Testament saints were the—we're the Old Testament Israel, the

Old Testament Church, New Testament saints are New Testament saints and members of the

Church. Yeah, and this is one of the reasons why I have, on a number of occasions, warned my listeners to stay away from John Hagee and Hagee ministries.

He teaches that Jews do not need to recognize

Jesus Christ as their Messiah to be saved. And if you want to talk about anti -Semitism, that's anti -Semitism, because you're leading

Jews to hell by making such a proclamation to them. And unfortunately,

I know a number of Jewish people who take great comfort in John Hagee's teaching, because it relieves them of any guilt they may have started to develop for rejecting

Christ. I not only know somebody personally, but even one specific

Fox News host who is Jewish loves to have John Hagee on, because his conscience is salved by John Hagee's exalting the

Jewish people to a level that God never intended them to be raised to.

But I want to make sure—I want to make sure our listeners, once again, have all the contact information they need to get a hold of you and to find out more about your church.

Go to Facebook and type in the search engine, Reformata Baptist Church, that's

R -E -F -O -R -M -A -T -A, Baptist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee.

And don't forget about the conference next month, where my guest today is just one of a number of speakers, including

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, the Open Air Theology Conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee, in February.

Find out more at openairtheology .com, openairtheology .com.

I want to thank you, Claude, for being such a superb guest, as you always are. I'm looking forward to your return.

I hope everybody listening has a safe and healthy and happy and joyful and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day.

And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.