Responsibility for Training Children | Ep. 4

You know, so I'm saying I would be insane to send my children to Harvard, right?

Although I think they could handle it intellectually. Okay, but I wouldn't do it because Harvard has a different worldview and that worldview is baked into the philosophy department and into mathematics

Into every area of worldview, right? You're entrusting them to professors who are not gonna say oh wearing on their sleeve

This is my agenda. Yeah And Welcome to off the cuff.

My name is Joe Gormley average Joe Gormley asking average joke Questions that other

Christians might care about of our pastor Jeff Clewer Welcome to off the cuff.

And today we're gonna talk about the Christian life again as we It's all about the

Christian life. It's all about the Christian life. It's all about exegeting the culture, but I'm gonna start off with our first question

So at what age should kids Be allowed to not go to church

Be allowed like that's like a proof at what age should kids be allowed?

So, okay So the idea here is they've stopped wanting to go to church, right? Right, right And at what point does the parent stop fighting them right and making forcing them to go?

I'm thinking this this question must have came from that Cultural idea that you know, just let them let them find themselves and let them you can't force it

Don't force the kids. Don't impose your views. You could always you know What do you think of that?

I think that as long as a child Mm -hmm or a teenager or even a young adult is living under the roof the headship of a family

And it's particularly of the the husband the father right in the home The father should set what the family does sure like we are a

Christian family, right? There's a such thing as a Christian family, right? And this is what our family is right now if somebody's old enough to Rebel against that family headship and structure then they're old enough to have a house of their own

Yeah, otherwise they're under this headship and we'll need to come to church. So they're not gonna reach an age at 13

Yeah, or 15 or 16 where the husband should abdicate his headship over The family right and let this child sit at home and watch online or whatever

So are you insinuating that that headship might denote accountability for the father?

Oh, wow Yeah, so headship there is authority right because that's what we're talking about with head over the body kind of thing

Mm -hmm But with every authority comes Responsibility sure, which is the part that people so easily.

Yeah, what is it throughout? Yeah So yeah, he has a responsibility and so now as soon as you have a child

Who doesn't want to go worship the Lord Jesus Christ, right? You know that there's a problem sure

What's the the heart issue here? What's going on? Yeah And so I think this is a chance for the the father to double down in his

Accountability and begin to seek the Lord and say God, why does my child? Not love the

Lord with all his heart soul mind and strength and want to be part of the body so yeah, it's a chance to So do some heart search.

So I think I hear you saying that that could be some Enabling of sin, but also would it be sin for the father to say?

Do whatever you want, you know, oh, yeah. Yeah, so if he doesn't hold the child accountable

Mm -hmm, then then that's on him. It's like any other manager that Let's say you're a manager in a business and you have an employee who's who's messing up, right?

Well, that's the employees fault well, once the employer learns of that and As long as he doesn't give feedback doesn't coach and direct now, it's now it's his problem now

He hasn't managed. Well, right in the same way in a home that yeah, it's his accountability and If he's letting this child stay home because the child wants to stay home

That's on him. Yeah, you know, that's that's sin in his camp now as well as in the life of the child yes, so that would probably bleed into questions about what is a father and a mother responsible for in the home as far as Training teaching their children and the fear and admonition of the

Lord wouldn't what do they have to do? Look, what's what should be a standard in today's culture, especially last time we spoke about patriarchy, right?

And what a scary word, right father rule. Yeah, you know, right that concept a

Father is the one who is given the authority and the responsibility For the spiritual life of that home.

Yeah, so what does that look like? There should be prayer in the home Some would do it like more of a formal worship service even you know, the the

Puritan tradition was basically To read a chapter of the

Bible. Mm -hmm. They wouldn't emphasize like something long It wouldn't be a 30 or 45 minute thing.

It'd be 10 or 15 minutes The father would read a chapter of the Bible Ask a couple questions to make sure the kids are understanding

Sing a hymn, yeah pray and then you begin your day might be 10 or 15 minutes.

They would call it family worship Okay, actually, so there would be family worship in the home and then again right before bed there would be the same kind of prayer a chapter of the

Bible a song and And on so that kind of thing is under the jurisdiction of the dad

He has to initiate that now that doesn't mean that the mom isn't a teacher as well But that kind of Authority structure and and the structuring of what they're going to do right needs to come from the dad

Yeah, I mean, yeah the the idea of accountability even yeah, you're not the one committing the sin

You're still accountable for the organization, right? Yeah, the CEO is accountable for right the organization the pastors accountable for the organization, right?

Yeah, and it could be that even the wife isn't on board with that and doesn't want the husband to lead in that way

Which means he's gonna have to stand up to her Yeah in a private conversation away from the kids But to say that this is what our home has to be right and hopefully in the beautiful thing is when you have both husband and wife that love the

Lord God And want this and and I think most Christian women sure would love to see their husband step up more

Right in family worship and in in leading the home that way. Yeah, we would hope so. Yeah Yeah You'd hope so But but you know these kids that you know,

I'm not gonna quote any statistics I don't have any ready, but they say that huge percentages of children leaving evangelical quote -unquote

Evangelical churches going off to school or secondary education or college. They're falling away

What what what is lacking? Okay. Well, there's a book written by Ken Ham Answers in Genesis called already gone

And the idea here is that when we see this falling away when kids go off to college

Yeah, it's because they were already gone probably by 8th or 9th grade, right? They were believing their indoctrination that the world is has evolved.

Mm -hmm And so they believe evolution they do not believe Genesis 1 to 11, right?

They take Scripture as generally fairytale Yeah, and there's another book called weed in the church, which

I don't fully agree with as a book but it points out And it's called weed in the church.

Weed. W -e -e -d W -e -e -d and it's not talking about marijuana, right? It's talking about Youth ministry.

Yeah, it calls youth ministry itself a weed in the church

Oh, yeah, and so it advocates that you shouldn't differentiate by age and have you know

Kids classes and then all the way up to high school Meanwhile church is happening in the sanctuary where you have teenagers worshiping.

Yeah together in their little groups, right? Right, because what you're doing there is you're not integrating.

This is integrative family worship Yeah, you're not integrating the family in the worship of God.

So why would they continue once they're off to college? They were never part of the church. They were part of this like little sub stratum, you know youth ministry, right?

So this author calls it a weed. Mm -hmm. I think there is some place for kids ministries

Like I I don't think it would be beneficial when I'm teaching the ordo salutis on Sunday morning

Okay for a six -year -old to be there because I'm preaching to the sheep. I'm preaching to mature

Christians Okay, I think up into a certain age, but I would like to see a ten -year -old Begin and that's when

I really saw like my son Nine ten years old being able to track right with the sermon right at that point put him in the sermon

I don't want teenagers having their own worship service that I want them listening to the sermon.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah That's yeah, very common. A lot of times youth groups meeting while church is going on Okay for their youth they even have worship of their own and all kinds of things like that It's like a mega church phenomenon

Okay, yeah That would be the extreme case but even so let's say you just have youth ministry as a function of your church.

Mm -hmm how many parents are trusting that their kids are being

Educated biblically for that hour a week and they're just farming it out.

Yep to the youth ministry That's the youth ministers job, you know, or they send their kids to Christian school thinking.

All right Well, you know we're paying this money for them to get a biblical worldview. Oh, yeah So and the thing that's missing in all cases here is that the father and the mother right are not raising their children in the admonition

Of the Lord. Yeah training up in the way they should go Well, you know, I mean how big a problem is it that we can't defend our own scripture?

We can't defend. I mean I think of I know one of the topics we're gonna get into eventually Right and and you know,

I thought I've talked to some people about well, how do you how do you defend slavery? Can you defend biblical slavery?

You know, can you defend? Stoning a kid at the gate, right, you know things like that and You know people can't do it.

No, you know, yeah, I mean how important is it that we're able to Explain that to people.

Yeah, why it was just right So many questions wrapped up in that with the on me

What is different what it what is What where are there? discontinuities between the law as given to Israel right and The law that we have in the

New Testament, right? Is it just a complete parallel or are there some things that discontinue?

Yeah, right as we go That's one of the big questions But one thing that I think very few people have wrestled with is that what was moral and just Mm -hmm in the

Old Testament would still be moral and just today right because God doesn't change No, so right, right.

So if we're not preaching he doesn't change and you know, hey atheists have Google too

Right. Yes, and to him and they you know, they yeah, you know, there's there they got their own clobber verses

Oh sure, they accuse us of clobber verses. Yep. And so that's that first Peter 315, right?

Yeah, always be ready to give an answer. Yeah, don't go in that direction because we got to save that for another episode

Yeah, yeah So today, what are we focusing on? What do we get? I think I think

I think it's great to focus on on kids in the church and okay and going to you know

Maybe maybe getting them prepared. How do you how do you get them prepared in the home? You were talking about yeah, you know what the

Puritans used to do, you know, what are you seeing in our church that's working? Well, one of the things

I recently Preached on as an intro to a sermon was the New England primer

Yeah, and I actually told parents buy yourself a copy of it and train your children

Maybe just it's the Westminster Catechism is what's and then the London Baptist Confession both kind of were similar in how they

Catechized or how they trained up children but working through Something like that would be good.

One of the things in the New England primer that they have is Met Bible memory verses according to letters and my mom did this with me

So my mom was actually much more active in training me in scripture than my dad was because he was out working

Which was good, right, you know, but when I was home as a little one we would memorize scripture, so A to Z Bible verses is a tremendous tool

In fact, I have a little book here if anybody wants to ever borrow it or take a look at it. It's an A to Z Bible memory book for kids.

Okay. So by that I mean like a all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Okay, B believe in the

Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved so all the way down through the alphabet So things like that scripture memory a regular pattern of Bible reading

One of the things I did with both of my kids is we have a 10 volume set of Bible stories, right?

It's it's good. It walks through the entire Bible. Yeah, but it's written at a level for children, right?

It tells it more like a story and and puts it in small chapters of and you just go from Adam and Eve all the way to Revelation Wow so I went through that a couple of times with my kids when they were young just kind of Bedtime stories would always be from those books right and just work your way through the

Bible that way So that needs to that falls on the shoulders of the parents to do that a child isn't just thinking

Oh, let me go read the Bible. Yeah, right, you know You just got to be active to think this is when the kid falls away when they go to college as the majority do, right?

Right, that's on your shoulders as a parent. Yeah, you know, that's hard to understand

And there's other reasons that could happen. It might not be that you neglected Devotions.

Yeah, but if you neglected devotions, right? There's a connection with Your child falling away.

Yes. Yes. Let's talk about college. Yeah I mean, do we even want to send our kids to college anymore?

I mean, I know I have a tendency to notice that people who didn't go to college.

Hmm have a Have a different vision of they really want their kids to go to college Is that something they should be hoping for is that is that the

I mean, it's not the goal There's something else. That's the goal, right? Right? Yeah, so it's it used to be like the high mark

You've got to go to college, but how much better for some boys would it be that they learn a trade?

Yeah, you know and why would there be shame in that like that's great to work with your hands and to be productive that way

Um You'd be insane to send your son or your daughter that you raised in the faith to Harvard Mmm, or Princeton Wow, or you know any of these schools were insane.

It's such a harsh word That's okay. So if they're gonna take a philosophy class, yes, then they're going to learn from Michael Sandel at Harvard Yeah, his class theory of justice is online and I watch it.

It's a YouTube series 13 parts Where he's training the young mind in philosophy love of wisdom, right sure and he walks through the different philosophers and indoctrinates the children because they're still yet unformed in you know being independent in their thinking

To the point where you can watch the course and see that everybody is generally agreeing

An entire room full of groupthink, okay in a theory of justice, which absolutely fundamentally contradicts biblical justice

Wow, so how is that not insane you spend your whole life? Yeah Indoctrinating these children in truth right in biblical justice

And if you would if you're honest with yourself, you probably have not done the kind of job that the

Puritans did sure, right? I haven't right, you know, so I'm saying I would be insane to send my children to Harvard, right?

although I think they could handle it intellectually, okay, but I wouldn't do it because Harvard has a different worldview and that worldview is baked into the philosophy department and into mathematics

Into every area of worldview, right? You're entrusting them to professors who are not gonna say

Oh wear it on their sleeve. This is my agenda Yeah, but if you actually look at their voting record and their their political affiliations, it's 99 %

Yeah left, right. Why would you send them? That's insane. That is utterly insane, right?

And they're so in Florida the unit University of Florida was taken over recently by Ben Sasse as the president he's a

Republican congressman, you know and Seems to be of the Jim Jordan kind of conservative variety.

Okay, and I'm thinking that's awesome now when that happened there was this massive protest in the student hall and all these students mobilizing against the

Homophobia and bigotry and you know every ism and phobia that they could ascribe to Ben Sasse.

Okay, okay I would expect that the University of Florida right now. Yeah is conservative enough in some departments

To not be insane to send your kid there Wow Wow, so now

Ben Sasse is So what about Christian colleges? Yeah, do we are all

Christian colleges alike? No, not at all. There's a lot of woke Conservative Christian schools.

Mmm, even ones that you thought were were solid, you know How long did

Liberty employ Karen swallow prior? I? Don't know Boy anybody out there no parents.

Yeah. Well, then she's now moved on to to another seminary because they finally got rid of her

Okay, but Even Liberty isn't safe. Yeah now

Liberty's good. Yeah, and probably a majority of the professors are gonna be solid

You know born -again evangelical trustworthy. Yeah teachers And I would send my kid to Liberty.

Yeah But I wouldn't think that they're safe there right, you know, and it depends you wouldn't send them unprepared unprepared

And it also depends a lot on their friend group that they make there that will probably have as much of an infant You know influence on them as the the teachers

Which ones do you know of that are? Trustworthy at this point. I don't trust anything at all

I the only way if I if the only way I would send my child to College is if they live in my home and I can see what's going on every night.

They're commuting So I think so that was gonna be my next question. I was gonna say which College close to home

Yeah here in South Jersey. Yeah, you know for Greater, Philadelphia. Where would you send? Yeah, I would say

Karen. Okay. Yeah, but I don't know that that would be unqualified either. Yeah You still don't want to live in in a dorm

No, Karen. Ah Life is this whole I would probably prefer commuting.

Yeah. Well, that's the dad speaking like yeah, you know Yeah dorm life that's a whole other thing

I so I don't know what what happens at any given College I do know that talking to Tim Robinson who just graduated from Karen.

Okay that he has a very high view I know Tom Allen had been a professor there for a long time.

Sure and guy had the whole New Testament memorized So remember going around Wow Wow. Yeah, just solid solid guys like that right now.

They have dolls. Oh, who's a theologian Good in some ways, but now I've become a little bit questioning some of his stuff

Keith What's his name? It's kind of the head of the theology department. I appreciated something that he said in a an

EFCC FCA I think he is because they had him at a theology refresher and I found him to be more helpful than the other people presenting okay, but He was kind of into some of the authors that I I look at with kind of more of a jaundiced eye

Yeah, so I I'm not just entirely trusting of the Karen Bible and theology department

Let alone what's happening if there's a social where I think they got rid of their social work department Yeah, because that's where the liberalism tends to oh, yeah, and psychology.

Oh, man. Yes psychology social work women's studies Yeah They would not have that.

Well, I mean if they have that at Karen, oh, they would be on right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, if you you can tell my wife actually just took my daughter

The night we had the congregational meeting. They were at a college fair, right? and they my wife was able to look at the course offerings of What they in the departments that they have and just point out look you can tell where they are.

They have this you know Collectivistic kind of course on race or gender or whatever like, you know where they stand, right?

You can just they just wear it right on their sleeve So that was one up in New York, so just rule them out and then when you ask the recruiter

Where did you guys fall with the George Floyd 2020 situation? And they're like, well, we didn't take a side.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's a problem That's what we call the gray church right like the great when you don't take a side

You're just trying to have your kind of sit in the middle. Yeah, there's red. Yeah, and then there's blue Yeah, and if you just want to be gray, right?

It means you're not willing to say the hard things about abortion and gender and Sexuality sure economics.

There's many that will not say that socialism is evil a lot of pastors. Ah Wow, because that's a political issue.

That's just a matter of economic preference So, where do they come down on thou shalt not steal? right

What I have stealing nabots vineyard So yeah, you mentioned a couple of things and I guess we only have a few minutes left

But I think I think you know going back to what you're responsible to teach your kids.

Yes When do you bring these things in to your children's knowledge?

I mean, you you know, you don't get Past Genesis without some pretty Culturally relevant stuff.

Yes, right, you know, yeah, Joseph's being chased around the room by his employers wife

Yes, and I've read that the little children many times and sometimes I'm praying, you know, yeah

Go the wrong way. Yeah, what do you do? So? Yeah, you want to be age -appropriate? So we would start with like little videos like a superbook.

I know that's old -school. I know it's produced by TBN Yeah, and those movies were great.

You know, it's just like little kids learning what the stories are talking about it And and you're watching if you see something that's a little theologically

Off you can correct that You know, so the those sort of things. Yeah, you don't necessarily want to just dive right into lamentations and described little toddlers

Falling dead in the street from hunger and thirst and you're gonna give them nightmares When they're super young you want to just be a little bit discriminating

I don't think you would just read cover -to -cover But you do begin when they're young You know age -appropriate and then

I think at some point parents seem to just sort of check out like I've done my part Send them off to college.

They'll learn there. So just kind of circling back to that conversation You've got I think see them through to like age in this culture

Yeah age 25 26. Sure. You're still really discipling them and they're getting on their own and then they're establishing a home of their own

Isn't that part of our learning more as we're discipling our kids. We're strengthening our own.

Oh, yeah Absolutely. Yeah, just asking questions like while you're driving

I think my kids think it's because I'm a pastor the kind of things that I throw out like yeah a pastor would would see that or but I think everybody every

Christian should do that just We don't shelter. So our kids are teenagers now, right?

They know everything that's going on in the world and all of these cultural controversies and they understand why these things are wrong

Yeah, because they're going they're in the world, right? We're not of it. They're gonna see things They're gonna hear jokes from their friends

They're going to be aware of what's happening And if you're not willing to talk about sex and talk about all of these things, they're getting it from somewhere, right?

They're not getting it from the biblical worldview, but they are they are hearing believe it if they go to the library I live in Cherry Hill and they had five -year -olds out there with signs.

Yeah chanting LGBTQ we love you. And I mean, yeah, you're they're gonna run into it.

Yes. Yeah, so we got to prepare We've got and maybe that's the theme of this particular off -the -cuff.

Yeah that We're talking about responsibility this week last week. We talked more about authority

Yeah, that headship implies that it's more of a patriarchal situation But that means

Responsibility. Yeah dads need to step up and wives as well under the headship of their husband

They have a huge role in this. In fact, my mom took that role. Okay, but it was delegated as well you know my dad's out there my dad was driving a

School bus in the morning and doing a paper route before that throwing out newspapers. Okay, drive the kids

I remember one time he brought the school bus home in front of our house Yeah He was working so hard just to pay the bills because he was a realtor and if you're not making a lot of sales you

Got to get other good other things and then eventually he did really well in real estate He had to work a lot of hours

So it was the mom that was home with us, right? And so there was kind of a delegated situation there where it was

My mom teaching us the A to Z Bible verses and you know We would read through the Bible in a year

We the first book I read was one of those kind of like children's Bibles. Okay that you read through It's up to the parents to make that happen.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, isn't that neat last? We didn't plan this it was off the cuff last week was

Authority and this week was accountability. It was a responsibility responsibility accountability, right?

Fantastic Well, that's it for this episode of off the cuff. Come back next time.