WWUTT 1990 Q&A Six Day Creation, Were Jesus Miracles Natural, Women Teaching Men

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September 8, 2023

Responding to questions from the listeners about pastors preaching the six day creation, do Jesus' supernatural miracles have natural explanations, and can women teach men in Sunday school settings. Visit wwutt.com for all our videos!

00:00: Were the miracles of Jesus, though supernatural, using natural processes? Can women teach in a mixed Sunday school group of men and women? Or can women lead discussion times? The answers when we understand the text.
00:24: This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible commentary to help encourage your time in the Word.
00:30: Thank you for listening, and please leave a five-star review to help others find our podcast.
00:34: Here once again is Pastor Gage.
00:37: Thank you, Becky.
00:38: You're welcome.
00:39: We come back again to Psalm 71, reading the next section, verses 7 to 11.
00:44: I have become a marvel to many, for you are my strong refuge.
00:50: My mouth is filled with your praise and with your beauty all day long.
00:56: Do not cast me off in the time of old age.
01:00: Do not forsake me when my strength fails.
01:04: For my enemies have spoken against me, and those who watch my life have counseled together, saying, God has forsaken him.
01:12: Pursue and seize him, for there is no one to deliver.
01:17: So as we get older, the book of Ecclesiastes says even, this is chapter 12, verse 1, hold on to the Lord in the days of your youth, before the days come that will be difficult, and in them you will say, I have no pleasure.
01:31: Ah.
01:32: Well, that's interesting, because today's society thinks that youth is difficult, so.
01:38: Yeah, right.
01:40: So hold on to the faithfulness of God, fill yourself up, fill your mind up with God's word while your mind is still sharp to receive those things.
01:49: Right.
01:50: And then God's word continues to counsel you, even in your old age.
01:54: Do not cast me off in the time of old age.
01:57: Do not forsake me when my strength fails.
01:59: For then my enemies come against me and say, look at this guy who used to be so valiant and so enthusiastic in the Lord, and now what has he become? And God has forsaken him, so let's pursue and seize him, for there is no one to deliver.
02:14: We hit those weak moments, and it's easier for Satan to come at us.
02:19: So continue to be filled up with God's word.
02:21: Notice that in the present, in the tense in which this is said, in verse 7, I have become a marvel to many, for you are my strong refuge.
02:32: So people can see the testimony of God in my life.
02:35: Yeah.
02:36: May that testimony continue to be strong.
02:40: My enthusiasm for Christ and what he has done for me, the gospel that has saved me, let me continue to have that delight in it even into my old years.
02:51: Yeah.
02:52: Even when my years get hard, I still rejoice in God my Savior.
02:55: Amen.
02:56: Amen.
02:56: Speaking of getting older, somebody has a birthday today.
03:01: Oh, yeah.
03:02: Today.
03:03: Today is my birthday.
03:05: Happy birthday to you.
03:07: Thank you.
03:08: Thanks for the French toast this morning.
03:10: You're welcome.
03:11: And the sleeping in a little bit.
03:13: And the sleeping in a little bit.
03:14: Yeah.
03:14: Yes.
03:15: We apologize for the last couple of episodes being a little bit late.
03:19: A little bit.
03:20: We got back from Arizona and never caught back up to Central Time.
03:24: It's been tough for everybody.
03:27: I think two of the kids yesterday, on Thursday, they slept in until afternoon, like literally afternoon.
03:36: Yeah.
03:36: And I finally had to go wake them up because they were just going to sleep the whole day.
03:41: Well, I know one of those was our teenager.
03:43: Yep.
03:43: She's always sleeping, though.
03:45: So the baby doesn't let Z sleep late.
03:49: He's got to get up with the baby.
03:50: He's up.
03:51: Yep.
03:51: But then one of our daughters, I think she's going through a growth spurt because she was stubbing her toes left and right.
03:59: Oh, she was.
03:59: My goodness.
04:00: She just wouldn't quit.
04:02: I was like, can you just walk like down the center of the hall so you're not banging your foot? Your shoulders are wider than how you're walking right now.
04:11: How do you not hit your shoulders, but you hit your feet, but whatever.
04:14: Yep.
04:14: Yep.
04:15: Yep.
04:15: So coming back from AZ, which happens to be in the Pacific time zone.
04:21: Currently.
04:21: Since Arizona does not recognize daylight saving time.
04:25: So right now they are in the Pacific time, so we're two hours away from Arizona.
04:30: Coming back into central time, we were fine getting there, but we sure have had trouble getting back into central once we got here.
04:39: I was up at like 530 every day.
04:41: We were up earlier, yeah.
04:43: That's definitely true.
04:45: I would wake up and I'd just lay there and I'm like, what could I be getting done right now? I know.
04:49: I was like, okay, so this is interesting.
04:52: Maybe I can go back to sleep.
04:53: No.
04:53: No.
04:54: No.
04:54: I'm up.
04:55: So then after a couple of days of that, I just, okay, I'm just getting up.
04:59: I'm getting up so I can work on writing, read my Bible, whatever, instead of just laying here.
05:04: I mean, it was nice to have a good start on the day rather than, you know, dragging myself out of bed.
05:09: Yes.
05:10: But at the same time I was like, man, this is odd.
05:13: Well, we were at Providence Reformed Baptist Church in Casa Grande or Casa Grande, depending on who you talk to, just this past weekend.
05:24: So if you're looking for a good Reformed Baptist Church, that's the one that we would recommend.
05:30: This is the Friday edition of the broadcast and you can submit your questions to when we understand the text at gmail.com.
05:38: First of all, I'm going to get to a poll here.
05:41: So this poll is still going on.
05:42: I just started it last night and it still has a couple of hours before it wraps up, but I'm over 2200 votes.
05:49: Oh, well, you know.
05:51: So the percentages aren't going to change much in the next couple of hours.
05:54: Here's the poll question.
05:56: If a pastor taught that Genesis 1 describes the creation of the universe in a period of time other than six literal days, would you continue to attend church there? Options are no, yes, maybe.
06:11: And that is my pastor now.
06:15: So 63% say no.
06:19: And within like the first 100 to 200 votes that I got, it hit about the 65% line.
06:25: And it's stayed pretty consistent ever since.
06:29: 14% say yes, they would continue to attend church there.
06:34: Okay.
06:34: 21% say maybe.
06:37: And only 2%, I was surprised actually by this number.
06:41: Only 2% said, that is my pastor now.
06:45: I would have thought maybe that would have been a little bit higher.
06:47: But I guess like when you see the options of no and yes.
06:50: Yeah, you just kind of click that first.
06:52: Those whose pastors are already there are probably just, yeah, they're just going to click yes.
06:57: Yeah.
06:58: But overall in this poll, 63% say that they would not continue to attend church where a pastor is preaching a view other than a literal six-day creation view.
07:09: Well, that's great.
07:10: Because I would be the same way.
07:12: Yeah.
07:12: You know, and it's not that you're professing that all the people there are unsaved because they don't see six literal days in Genesis 1.
07:19: But it is an important enough issue because if they're off there.
07:25: Yeah, everything else is going to be.
07:27: Yeah, there's going to be some other inconsistencies in their theology beyond that.
07:31: It is a pretty good test that you can tell where a person is theologically by whether they believe in a literal six-day creation according to what Genesis 1 says.
07:42: Any other view has the burden of proof of trying to show how Genesis 1 could mean anything other than what it says.
07:50: Yeah, true.
07:51: But the biggest thing, the biggest problem with this, if they take, for example, a day age creation view or the old earth view or some sort of Darwinian process, it's just summarized by the six-day creation, but it didn't really happen that way.
08:07: It was actually millions and millions of years of time.
08:10: The biggest problem you're going to have with that view is that you have to believe that death occurred before sin.
08:16: Ah.
08:17: But Romans 5.12 says that death came in because of sin.
08:23: Sin is the reason we die.
08:25: Right.
08:26: That is the consequence for sin.
08:28: Right.
08:29: So if creatures were dying in millions of years of time before Adam and Eve come into the garden and sin, then you've got a major theological difficulty there.
08:39: Yeah.
08:40: Because really what is then the big deal about death if it's not the consequence of sin? It also diminishes sin.
08:47: There's other problems too, but that's one of the big ones.
08:50: Yeah, definitely.
08:50: There's going to be some theological inconsistencies if you don't see Genesis 1 as being literal.
08:55: Mm-hmm.
08:56: Now, I took this poll because I'm actually going to begin teaching on Genesis 1 in my Sunday school class this coming Sunday.
09:04: Oh, neat.
09:05: And some of you have asked, hey, why haven't we heard the Sunday school classes in a while? I was finishing up 1 Corinthians.
09:11: I was not teaching through August because I was visiting different Sunday school classes at our church.
09:17: Right.
09:17: And observing.
09:18: That's part of your job.
09:19: Yeah, it's part of my job.
09:20: Description, yeah.
09:21: Since I'm the education and discipleship pastor.
09:24: And there were a couple of teachers that were getting voted on in our upcoming members meeting to be approved as teachers that I had not listened to teach in front of a group yet.
09:35: Okay.
09:35: And so I had to go and listen to them first.
09:37: And it does make a difference when you're teaching to one person versus teaching to a class.
09:41: A whole class, right.
09:43: So yeah, just kind of part of my job.
09:45: I went and did that.
09:46: And that was why you've not heard any Sunday school lessons in over a month.
09:52: Yeah.
09:52: But this coming Sunday, I'm teaching on Genesis 1.
09:55: So sometime after that class wraps up, I'll get it uploaded to the podcast.
10:00: And you'll have my Sunday school lessons, which are labeled sermons.
10:03: But it's my Sunday school class.
10:05: I'm teaching in the sanctuary.
10:07: Yes.
10:08: Of the church.
10:09: Between the two services.
10:11: So it might be labeled a sermon, but it's actually the Sunday school lesson for my class.
10:16: But anyway, so where were we? Being the Friday edition, we take questions from the listeners.
10:21: And this first question comes from...
10:23: Oh, hang on.
10:24: I don't have my window up here.
10:25: Boop.
10:26: Hit my app.
10:28: That's the sound my apps make when you click on them.
10:30: They go boop.
10:31: Boop.
10:32: Boop.
10:32: Boop.
10:33: Okay.
10:35: Wait, it wasn't just boop.
10:36: It was boop.
10:37: Boop.
10:38: Gotta have the right tone in there.
10:41: Hey, Gabe.
10:42: This is from Matthew.
10:43: Thank you for such a great podcast.
10:45: And congratulations on 2,000 episodes.
10:48: That's in two weeks.
10:49: Yeah.
10:50: And by the way, G3 is in two weeks.
10:52: It is.
10:53: So we will be at G3.
10:55: Yes.
10:56: When we hit our 2,000th episode.
10:58: But we'll probably record ahead of time, right? Yeah.
11:01: Well, yeah.
11:02: And we need to get on that then.
11:03: Yeah.
11:04: Because we're going to be gone the whole week.
11:06: Time is of the essence.
11:07: Really, I'd actually like to take a recorder with me and then we'll just do it there.
11:11: Well, that would be awesome.
11:12: But I remember one time it not working.
11:14: That didn't...
11:15: I remember that not working out.
11:16: Yeah.
11:17: There was one time that it did work out.
11:19: Yeah.
11:19: And then another time that it didn't.
11:20: So I don't know.
11:21: Maybe have something on backup.
11:23: Let's give it a shot.
11:24: Yeah.
11:24: We'll record our episodes for that week.
11:27: We're also going to have the kids.
11:28: We will.
11:29: This is the first time we're going to G3 as a whole family.
11:33: A whole family.
11:35: All of the kids are going to be there.
11:36: Bubba and all.
11:37: Yep.
11:38: Even the baby.
11:39: The baby was the reason you couldn't go to the last one.
11:41: Right.
11:41: Two years ago.
11:42: Yes.
11:43: It'll be a different dynamic for sure.
11:47: We'll all be there.
11:48: I hope my books are going to come in in time.
11:49: Oh, that would be awesome.
11:51: Yeah.
11:51: So anyway, Matthew says, Thank you for such a great podcast.
11:55: Oh, yeah.
11:55: I read that line.
11:56: I have not listened to every episode, but it's my first go-to on my podcast app.
12:02: Thank you for being committed to just teaching the Bible.
12:05: This has really helped the way I study.
12:07: I've been enjoying the study and Matthew immensely, and not just because my name is Matthew.
12:12: My question is about some recent episodes where you have been talking about the miracles of Jesus.
12:19: I grew up in a couple of different churches where both pastors of these respective churches, I guess, like to come up with natural explanations for Jesus' miracles.
12:30: But it wasn't like that weird one in the New York Times where some guy said, Jesus didn't really walk on water, but on an ice flow in the Sea of Galilee.
12:39: Say what now? Yeah.
12:41: I remember that story.
12:42: That was a thing? Yeah.
12:44: I remember working.
12:46: I was working in Christian radio at the time, and this story actually came across what we call the wire.
12:52: Okay.
12:52: I don't know that they really call it that anymore, but it was the Associated Press wire.
12:56: Any bulletins that came up, they'd come out printed on the wire.
12:59: Okay.
13:00: Anyway, there was a story that actually made a wire headline.
13:03: It was one of my headline stories that day.
13:05: This guy had published in the New York Times that he had figured out how Jesus was able to walk on the Sea of Galilee.
13:13: Okay.
13:13: And it wasn't some supernatural achievement.
13:16: It was because there was actually an ice flow in the Sea of Galilee.
13:19: Uh-huh.
13:20: My dad grabbed that story and got on the air with it.
13:24: And he said, now tell me, which is more miraculous? Yeah.
13:28: That Jesus walked on water or that there was an ice flow in the Sea of Galilee? Right.
13:35: That's a great point.
13:39: It was like just the absurdity of these guys to try to say, Jesus didn't really do something supernatural.
13:44: There was a natural explanation to it.
13:46: So anyway, Matthew's saying that his pastors, they weren't that outlandish with their explanations.
13:52: Okay.
13:53: My pastors instead would say things like, when Jesus turned the water into wine, it's not that something supernatural happened per se.
14:01: It was still a natural process, but Jesus just sped it up.
14:06: I've heard that before.
14:08: Or when Jesus calmed the storm, it wasn't as if he spoke and everything immediately stopped.
14:13: The storm came to an end like any storm would, but Jesus just sped up the process.
14:20: Or timed it well.
14:22: He just spoke the words at the right time and it just happened to stop.
14:26: You know, like when you're at a stoplight and you say, green, and it goes green.
14:30: Yeah, but you know when it's going to do that.
14:32: My kids were always super impressed by that.
14:34: I was like, I was looking at the yellow light over there, but I didn't tell them that.
14:39: How did you know? How did you know when it was going to turn green? Give it away.
14:44: Or, Matthew goes on here, or when Jesus healed the blind men in Matthew 9, it wasn't as if he caused something to happen that wasn't there.
14:52: He, as the Lord of creation, who made even the tiniest molecules, was able to reattach nerves or realign rods and cones in their eyes just by placing his hands on these men.
15:06: My question is, is this an accurate take? It doesn't quite sound like liberalism, which denies that Jesus performed any true miracles, but it also feels a little too naturalistic.
15:18: I don't know, it came back to my mind listening to Matthew 8 and 9, and I just wanted to know your take.
15:24: Thanks again for your ministry, Matthew.
15:27: So, when we read about Jesus calming the storm in Matthew 8, beginning in verse 23, when he got into the boat, his disciples followed him, and behold, there arose a great storm on the sea, so that the boat was being covered with the waves, but Jesus himself was sleeping.
15:47: And by the way, when I did this lesson last week, I had mentioned that a man's ability to sleep through anything is a Christ-like quality.
15:55: Oh, for sure.
15:58: You have been blessed with that.
16:02: And I got some messages from a couple of men after that, they were like, hey, thank you for that.
16:10: I've shared that with my wife.
16:12: There was one fellow, I did not grab this email, I think because it was a DM on Twitter, but anyway, he had said, my wife will get upset that I'm not as worried as she is.
16:23: Oh, yeah? How could you sit there and sleep at a time like this? And he said, your podcast gave me the perfect excuse the next time she asked me that question.
16:34: I'm just being Christ-like, sweetheart.
16:39: So, verse 25, they came to him and got him up saying, save us, Lord, we are perishing.
16:46: And he said to them, why are you so cowardly, you men of little faith? Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it became perfectly calm.
16:59: And the men marveled and said, what kind of man is this that even the winds and the sea obey him? There's nothing here that indicates that things are kind of gradually calming down.
17:11: Yeah, no, not at all.
17:13: Or even that there was a process that Jesus just sped up.
17:16: He spoke to the waves, to the wind and the sea, and it just became calm, perfectly calm.
17:23: Right.
17:23: There's an adverb that qualifies it there.
17:26: And I think in Mark's account, it immediately becomes calm.
17:30: Because that's Mark's favorite word.
17:31: He loves using that word immediately.
17:34: Yes.
17:34: So we have no reason to read something in here like, oh, it was just the usual natural process, but Jesus just sped it up.
17:41: That's not what we're meant to see.
17:42: What we're meant to see is that when Jesus speaks, creation obeys him.
17:48: Yeah.
17:49: Just like in Genesis 1, God spoke and things came to be.
17:54: Right.
17:55: They come into existence simply by the speaking of his word.
17:58: Right.
17:59: And it's by his word that all things hold together.
18:03: As we read in Hebrews 1 and Colossians 1, the same word that brought all things into existence is the same word that continues to govern all things, even us right now.
18:13: Mm-hmm.
18:14: So we're seeing here in Matthew 8 that when Jesus speaks, creation that came into existence by his word obeys him.
18:23: Right.
18:23: That's the point.
18:25: Yeah.
18:25: He's the creator, of course.
18:28: Right.
18:28: And however this happened— Exactly.
18:31: However this happened, it happened in such a way that the disciples are marveling at it.
18:36: Yes.
18:37: And the sailors.
18:39: Didn't it say the sailors, too, were marveling? No, Jesus is only with his disciples.
18:44: Oh.
18:44: You might be thinking of Jonah.
18:45: No, no, no, no, no.
18:47: Oh, was it the disciples that were sailing? Yeah.
18:52: When he got into the boat, his disciples followed him.
18:55: And behold, there arose a great storm on the sea so that the boat was being covered by the waves, and Jesus himself was sleeping.
19:02: Right.
19:02: So it's Jesus with his disciples.
19:04: Who marveled.
19:04: His disciples.
19:05: It says his disciples.
19:07: It doesn't say—I thought it said something else.
19:08: And the men marveled and said— The men.
19:11: Yeah.
19:11: Yeah, his disciples who were with him.
19:13: Oh, okay.
19:13: So it was the disciples who were throwing stuff overboard? No, that's Jonah.
19:17: That's Jonah.
19:18: Why am I combining these two? That's the story of Jonah.
19:22: Ugh.
19:23: Okay, I gotta quit.
19:24: Yeah.
19:24: Remember, Jonah tells them— Separate, mentally separate.
19:27: He tells them that all of this is happening because I'm running from God.
19:30: Oh, right.
19:31: Remember they cast lots? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:33: The lot fell on Jonah.
19:34: Right.
19:34: But they said, we're not going to be guilty for this man's death.
19:37: So they're trying to throw stuff overboard.
19:39: Right.
19:40: And Jonah finally convinces them, if you want to save yourselves— See, I thought it was the same—never mind.
19:46: But then when they tossed Jonah overboard, the storm became calm.
19:51: Right.
19:51: It became immediately calm.
19:52: And they marveled and praised God.
19:54: Okay, so that's where the sailors marveled.
19:57: Yes.
19:58: Now, I talked about that in one of my messages at Providence Reformed Baptist Church this past Sunday.
20:04: Uh-huh.
20:04: So that might be why— Might be why I'm meshing them together.
20:07: Exactly, right.
20:08: Like, I heard you teach on this recently.
20:12: So you heard my account from Matthew 8, and you mashed it with what I had mentioned from the story of Jonah and— You know, sleep.
20:20: Exactly.
20:20: Things like that.
20:21: And then changing time zones.
20:23: I will try harder.
20:23: Yeah.
20:26: But anyway— Okay, so it was the disciples who were sailing.
20:30: They're not really sailing.
20:32: We don't— They're just on the boat.
20:33: It's not saying that they're sailing.
20:36: Oh, okay.
20:36: They're just in the boat.
20:38: I mean, there probably was a sail.
20:39: They're probably not rowing.
20:43: Jesus is going from Capernaum to the other side of the sea.
20:48: Right.
20:48: So he needs a big boat.
20:50: Yeah.
20:50: So where he ends up next is the Gadarenes.
20:53: Yeah, some of those fishing boats were pretty sizable.
20:55: Right.
20:56: So the people who were operating the boat— Which were the disciples.
21:00: Were the disciples.
21:01: Yes.
21:01: That's what I'm clarifying for myself.
21:03: Jesus is taking a nap.
21:04: I know, right? That's what I'm thinking.
21:07: And then a storm comes up.
21:09: He's a carpenter, so— Yeah, right.
21:13: He's like— Yeah, that's right.
21:14: It's not that he's just Jesus.
21:15: He's a carpenter.
21:18: He's not a sailor.
21:21: But he did— Some of the disciples were sailors as their occupation.
21:26: No, not as their occupation.
21:27: No? We don't know that for sure.
21:29: Oh, they were fishermen.
21:30: They were fishermen.
21:31: Oh, okay, that's where I'm combining.
21:34: Okay, again? Again, yeah, just kind of combining it together.
21:37: I gotta quit.
21:37: We actually don't know the occupations of every single disciple.
21:41: Oh, okay.
21:42: What we do know— Is that why— Okay, I was always confused on why I didn't know everybody.
21:47: Andrew and Peter, James and John, were fishermen.
21:50: Okay.
21:51: And that was how Jesus found them, called them to follow him.
21:55: Right, and that's enough to operate a boat.
21:57: Yeah, they know how to operate boats.
21:58: Probably not rowing.
21:59: It probably is sailing.
22:00: But not as an occupation.
22:03: Okay, fair enough.
22:04: They were sailors as an occupation.
22:05: Yeah.
22:05: Yeah.
22:06: And sailing as an occupation was— That wouldn't have been on the Sea of Galilee.
22:10: That would have been like in the Mediterranean Sea.
22:12: True.
22:12: Where you're shipping goods from one place to another.
22:15: Yeah, that's true.
22:16: Yeah.
22:16: Okay.
22:16: Anyway.
22:17: Anyway, sorry.
22:17: Beyond that.
22:18: So Matthew asking this whole concept of Jesus just speeding up the process, would that be accurate? You know, maybe that when Jesus puts his hands on the blind men, maybe he is realigning rods and reattaching nerves or healing something in the brain.
22:34: There is something physical that's happening there.
22:37: But whatever it is— But an instant.
22:38: But yeah, but whatever it is that's going on, it's a supernatural process.
22:42: Right.
22:43: Naturally, you never could have been able to do that.
22:46: Right, exactly.
22:48: Jesus did what could not be done naturally.
22:51: It's obviously a miracle.
22:53: So yeah, because he is the Lord of creation, because he's made all of these things, he repairs whatever is broken in these men's heads, but it's still supernatural.
23:04: I just think it's kind of distracting from the point if you try to come up with like, well, it was a natural process that happened, but Jesus just sped it up.
23:12: It was supernatural.
23:14: Yeah.
23:14: And the water to wine, that was instant.
23:17: Yeah, that was instant.
23:18: And I don't understand how you take that story and say that Jesus sped up a process because water doesn't— Yeah, water doesn't turn to wine.
23:26: Exactly.
23:26: You need grapes, at least.
23:30: And it doesn't say that Jesus mashes up some grapes and speeds up the fermentation process.
23:35: He turns water into wine.
23:37: Literally.
23:37: He makes something happen that could not have happened naturally.
23:41: Right.
23:42: And so like is said in Romans 4, he calls into existence things that do not exist.
23:48: He's created ex nihilo, as said in Hebrews 11.
23:53: All things that were made that we can see were made out of things that are not seen.
23:58: And so God is able, Jesus is able to make these miracles happen by the speaking of word.
24:04: He can bring things into existence that weren't there.
24:07: Him feeding the 5,000 with five loaves and two fish.
24:10: Right.
24:11: There was clearly something being materialized there that was out of nothing.
24:17: Because even though he's breaking up five loaves and two fish, there's substance that people are gathering into their hands and eating that did not exist before he did that.
24:28: And there were leftovers.
24:29: And there were 12 baskets left over.
24:32: You know, I don't know that they're necessarily off.
24:36: I just think they're distracting from the point.
24:38: Yeah.
24:39: They're adding something to the text that really isn't there.
24:41: It's just kind of speculative.
24:43: Yeah.
24:43: And it kind of feels like you are pandering to that naturalistic mindset, which is real easy for us to fall into.
24:49: Would it be considered adding to the Bible at that point? Or is it just trying to explain further America? I think it's just it's over explanation.
25:01: Yeah.
25:03: Exaggerating to a certain degree.
25:05: Yeah.
25:06: But I think it's that.
25:07: I mean, the storm didn't dissipate.
25:09: It just ended.
25:10: It ended.
25:11: Right.
25:11: It became perfectly calm.
25:13: I mean, like dissipate is in like, you know, slowly go away kind of thing.
25:16: And I'm not trying to say either that, like, boom, suddenly it was just a clear day.
25:20: You know, I'm not saying that that was it either.
25:22: I'm saying that however you're trying to explain the miracle coming about seems to be distracting from the point.
25:28: Right.
25:29: Whatever happened and however it took place.
25:32: You can't do it again.
25:33: The disciples were clearly shocked.
25:35: Yeah.
25:36: Saying, who is this that the wind and the sea obey him? Right.
25:39: This wasn't like the video that you see of the guy on the farm and a tornado is coming toward his farm and he's got his camera out there.
25:45: He's like, Lord, please let the tornado miss my farm.
25:48: And then it kind of goes up in the air and then touches down on the other side.
25:50: Have you ever seen that video? No.
25:52: Okay.
25:53: It wouldn't have been like that.
25:54: No.
25:55: Because the storm is still there.
25:57: Right.
25:57: And the tornado still touches down over there.
25:59: Right.
26:00: You could still have explained that away as like being a coincidence.
26:04: Right.
26:04: This is something that, and I'm not saying that man did do something coincidental.
26:09: Maybe his prayer did cause the storm to skip his farm.
26:14: It was an answer to prayer.
26:16: You could certainly see it that way.
26:18: But this was clearly something that happened supernaturally.
26:21: So that the disciples marveled at it and wondered, how in the world could this have possibly happened? Yeah.
26:28: Who is this man? Right.
26:30: It just proves that he's God.
26:31: Yeah, exactly.
26:32: That's the point.
26:33: He controls nature and he even has power over supernatural things.
26:38: Because the next story is Jesus saving the men from the demons.
26:42: Oh, yeah.
26:43: On the other side of the Sea of Galilee, which they were traveling across the sea, the lake.
26:47: It's the sea, Sea of Galilee.
26:49: It's called the Sea of Galilee.
26:51: It is technically a lake.
26:52: I made this point on, I think it was Wednesday.
26:54: Big lake.
26:55: Yeah, it's a big lake.
26:56: The sea was really the Mediterranean Sea.
26:59: Yes.
26:59: But we wouldn't look at the Sea of Galilee and go, oh, what a big sea.
27:02: It's a lake.
27:03: It's true.
27:05: This next question comes from Brad.
27:07: Pastor Gabe, I hope you and your family had a great Labor Day weekend.
27:11: Aw.
27:11: Wonderful time in Arizona.
27:13: Thank you, Brad.
27:14: I have heard the conversation come up several times lately on the podcast regarding women pastors and teachers.
27:20: While it is clear that women are not to be pastors, the question I have wrestled with is, can women teach Bible study classes with men in attendance? I have attached a response I received regarding this and thought you might find this interesting.
27:35: He is taking the position that women teaching men not in corporate worship would be in line with the biblical model in both the Old and New Testaments.
27:44: His response is somewhat lengthy, so don't feel any need to respond.
27:47: I just thought you might find this position interesting as I believe you view it a bit different.
27:52: All right.
27:53: So this response that he got, there's no name on it.
27:57: Okay.
27:57: I don't have a name attached to it, so I'm just going to respond to this person as the responder.
28:01: Okay.
28:02: But the next two questions, or rather these two questions.
28:06: So this one from Brad and then the next question I got coming up from, I got to scroll all the way down here, LJ, both kind of deal with the same thing.
28:14: So I'm going to read through this statement and then responding to LJ's question will go a little bit faster.
28:19: Okay.
28:20: So this responder to Brad, who's asking the same question to the responder, says, I've written this down so that you can look at it and bounce it off a few other reform statements.
28:31: While there are others who disagree, I came to this position because I believed it was most consistent with all of the scriptures.
28:38: Is it biblical for women to teach in mixed adult Sunday school classes? There seem to be three basic arguments against it.
28:46: Number one, the Bible demonstrates predominantly male leadership in both the Old Testament and New Testament.
28:51: Number two, the Apostle Paul writing to Timothy that women are to learn in silence, not usurping authority over men, 1 Timothy 2, 11 to 15.
29:00: And I would say with that summarization of the statement, he's already kind of missed the point.
29:05: But I'll come back to that here in a moment.
29:08: And then number three, Paul's instructions to the Corinthian church that women are to remain silent in the church, 1 Corinthians 14, 34 to 35.
29:16: Based on these primary arguments, some draw the conclusion that women have no role in the local church regarding the teaching of mixed adult Sunday school classes.
29:27: Women are permitted to teach children and other women, according to Titus 2, but they must depend on their husbands to help them understand what is taught in the church.
29:36: For a woman to teach, she is stepping out of her submissive role and violating the standards laid down in scripture.
29:42: The question is, does this position adequately interpret the Bible's teaching regarding the role of women among God's children? I would contend, he says, it does not.
29:54: Now I'm going to give his reasons here, but then I'm going to come back to 1 Timothy 2, which I don't think he summarized properly.
30:01: And I think that'll clear some things up here.
30:04: All right.
30:04: So first of all, he says, it ignores the female leaders God set aside for a teaching ministry in both the Old Testament and New Testament.
30:12: In the Old Testament, we have Miriam.
30:15: Now here's the references he gives, Exodus 15, 20 and Micah 6, 4.
30:20: Deborah, Judges 4, 4.
30:22: Huldah, 2 Kings 22, 14.
30:23: Noah-Diah in Nehemiah 6, 14.
30:27: An unnamed prophetess in Isaiah 8, 3 was actually Isaiah's wife.
30:31: Clearly, God directly spoke to these women who, in turn, gave that revelation to others, including men.
30:37: Okay, let me come back to Miriam in Exodus 15, 20.
30:41: It explicitly says, she led the women.
30:46: It explicitly says that.
30:49: So she led the women in song and dancing and with tambourines.
30:53: Okay.
30:54: She did not have any kind of a teaching authority over men.
30:59: And in fact, later on, when she and Aaron claimed that they have every bit as much right to the revelations of God as Moses has, she was afflicted with leprosy.
31:10: Yeah.
31:11: Because she...
31:12: That didn't go so well for her.
31:13: Exactly.
31:13: Because she would not submit to the man that God had put in authority over the Israelites.
31:20: There's nothing new under the sun.
31:23: Surprise, surprise.
31:25: Now with Deborah, you cannot use Deborah.
31:28: You can't use Deborah or Huldah in 2 Kings 22.
31:31: No.
31:31: Because in both of those instances, what we see is an anomaly.
31:35: Yes.
31:37: Deborah is the only woman judge and really the only woman leader in Israel at all in the Old Testament.
31:46: Right.
31:46: There is no other woman that leads Israel.
31:49: Esther was not leading Israel.
31:51: Nope.
31:51: Esther was a voice on behalf of her people.
31:54: She had no authority.
31:55: She could have gotten struck dead.
31:57: Yeah, even going into the presence...
32:00: For what she did.
32:00: Exactly.
32:01: Even going into the presence of the king without being summoned, she could have been sentenced to death for that.
32:06: Yep.
32:07: So she had no authority.
32:09: So it's okay.
32:11: Hey, it just gives proof to the adage, the way to a man's heart is through his stomach.
32:17: Thank you once again for that French toast this morning.
32:19: Anytime.
32:19: And there was enough French toast left over for me to have a Monte Cristo for lunch.
32:25: Yes.
32:25: So I love Monte Cristo sandwiches.
32:27: Very yummy.
32:29: So anyway, yeah, Deborah is an anomaly.
32:31: She was a judgment on the people of Israel.
32:33: And that whole story is about that.
32:35: Right.
32:36: Because Barak would not obey God and listen to God and do what he had told him to do, which had been told to him through Deborah, who was not only a judge, but a prophetess.
32:47: Yes.
32:48: But he wouldn't do it.
32:48: He said to Deborah, I'll only go if you go with me.
32:52: Right.
32:52: And even she's exasperated by the fact you got to have a woman lead you by the hand.
32:56: Are you kidding me? Yep.
32:57: So she said, therefore, God is going to give the victory of the battle to the hand of a woman.
33:02: And that was JL.
33:03: Yes.
33:04: One of my favorite stories in the Bible.
33:06: Yes, it is.
33:08: Don't mess with stay-at-home wives.
33:09: That's right.
33:12: But you can't use Deborah as a, I mean, you also can't use Deborah as a picture of pastoral leadership or teaching leadership in a Sunday school class.
33:22: This is Old Testament Israel.
33:25: Totally different, what would you call it even, ecclesiology, a polity.
33:34: It's not a church service.
33:36: Right, that's true.
33:38: Or a Bible study or Sunday school class, any of that either.
33:40: That's true.
33:41: Hold the same sort of thing.
33:42: 2 Kings 22, it's Hilkiah the high priest who, along with some other men, go to Huldah to ask what God wants us to do.
33:52: Now, that's not a good thing.
33:54: That was not a good thing that Hilkiah went to Huldah.
33:56: There were other men who were prophets in Jerusalem at that time whose names we know.
34:04: Nahum, Jeremiah, Zephaniah.
34:08: That was at the same time? That was at the same time.
34:11: Okay.
34:11: And possibly also Ezekiel and Habakkuk.
34:15: So why did he use Huldah? It was because they were not seeking the counsel of God from men.
34:22: They were not good leaders at the time anyway.
34:25: That was the reason for kind of everything that was going on.
34:28: The book of the law was found, it was brought before Josiah.
34:32: Josiah is immediately grieved over what he's hearing in the law because he recognizes that Jerusalem, all of Judah, was not obeying God's law.
34:42: Oh, right.
34:42: Yeah, I remember that.
34:43: And so there's great revival in the land as a result of that.
34:46: But instead of going and seeking men who were leaders because the men were not doing well in Jerusalem at that time, kind of exemplifies that the men are not listening to God and his prophets in that they go to Huldah.
35:03: Now, this doesn't say anything about Huldah being a disobedient woman.
35:08: She was a godly woman.
35:10: But this is still a judgment on the men that they're not listening to men of God, that they instead seek the counsel of a woman.
35:17: The same kind of picture of judgment in 2 Kings 22-14 as we would have in Judges 4.
35:23: Right.
35:24: Deborah is a judgment on the men of Israel who will not step up and lead.
35:29: Huldah is a judgment on the men of Israel who will not listen to the prophets of God, the men to whom God had spoken.
35:38: They don't even seek them out.
35:39: They go seek out Huldah.
35:40: Right.
35:41: So then the next one, Noah-Diah in Nehemiah 6-14, Remember, O my God, Tobiah and Sanballat, according to these works of theirs, and also Noah-Diah, the prophetess, and the rest of the prophets, who were trying to frighten me.
35:59: Does that sound like Noah-Diah is a prophetess that should be regarded? No, not at all.
36:06: Trying to frighten me? Yeah, she was an enemy of God's people.
36:10: Yeah.
36:11: So that he would even reference Noah-Diah, that's pretty astonishing.
36:15: That's really weird.
36:17: I don't even know why he would do that.
36:19: So then going on from there, Isaiah 8-3, I already mentioned, that's Isaiah's wife, whose name is not given, but she's called a prophetess.
36:29: And it could be that she's called a prophetess simply because she's a prophet's wife.
36:34: Oh, okay.
36:35: There's nothing there in the context that ever says that she prophesies.
36:40: Interesting.
36:40: So it could just be that she's the prophetess, because it mentions, you know, Isaiah having children by the prophetess, so it was probably just in reference to his wife.
36:48: That's the prophet's wife, so she gets called a prophetess.
36:51: Anyway, that's another one where you can't really take a clear statement of, see, this woman was somebody God gave revelation to, who then taught the people, because we don't ever see her doing that in the book of Isaiah.
37:02: They have children together, and their children are named things that become a prophecy of what God is doing in Israel.
37:11: Oh, interesting.
37:12: And so in that sense, because she therefore believes what God has said to Isaiah and names their children these names, that could be why then she gets called a prophetess.
37:22: But anyway, you still couldn't take that as a clear picture of, see, women were teaching Israel.
37:27: Right.
37:27: Prophets are not the same things as pastors or even Sunday school teachers.
37:32: No, not at all.
37:33: All they're doing is revealing what God has said, and they're not teaching anyone.
37:38: If you disregard a prophet, then you are disregarding the word of God.
37:44: Right.
37:45: So going on— Unless they're a false prophet.
37:48: Yeah, right.
37:48: Well, yeah.
37:49: If they prophesy and it doesn't come to pass, those are the tests in, like, Deuteronomy 13 and 18.
37:56: Yes.
37:56: Then you know that they're speaking falsely and they're to be put to death.
38:00: Yes.
38:00: And that would have been Noah-Diah, by the way.
38:03: Yes.
38:04: Not a good example of a woman teaching in Israel.
38:08: So then the next paragraph here, he says, Before we move to the New Testament, we have to address this question.
38:13: How do the events of the Old Testament inform our understanding of the New Testament position? I'm going to skip this part.
38:19: I don't agree with it, but I think it kind of distracts with the point.
38:22: So are there any New Testament parallels? He says, Yes.
38:25: Let's start with Phoebe.
38:28: Paul writes the following to the church at Rome, Romans 16, 1 and 2, I commend to you, our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Sincreia, that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and help her in whatever she may need from you.
38:42: For she has been a patron of many and of myself as well.
38:46: Notice first that Paul refers to her as a servant.
38:49: That has nothing to do with teaching.
38:51: It just means she serves.
38:53: That just means she serves.
38:54: And if she's a patron, then she's giving money.
38:58: So she obviously is able to help support.
39:02: Yeah.
39:02: And there were women in the New Testament who we know were wealthy.
39:07: Lydia in Philippi was said to be a seller of purple fabric.
39:12: Well, that's a very expensive fabric.
39:14: Yeah.
39:14: So she probably had a lot of money.
39:16: Right.
39:16: And it was understood that the church in Philippi was meeting in her house.
39:19: So she may have had a lot of room.
39:21: Right.
39:21: And could have been a matriarch of some kind, but not a teacher.
39:25: Right.
39:25: That's totally different.
39:26: So yeah, you would think of her as being a patron in that particular sense.
39:30: And then with, who else was I thinking of? Well, anyway, just with Phoebe being a patron.
39:36: So maybe it does mean that she had a lot of money and she was supportive with what God blessed her with.
39:42: Right.
39:42: It could also just mean that she was just a very giving servant.
39:46: Oh, okay.
39:46: Because patron doesn't have to be financial.
39:50: It could be whatever resources she has, she's willing to give for the benefit of the church.
39:56: Okay.
39:56: And so therefore she gets labeled a patron in that particular sense.
39:59: That makes sense.
40:00: So this responder draws the conclusion that she is therefore a leader.
40:07: So let me find where it says that.
40:11: Paul goes on to give the church instructions to help and support her in any way she needed.
40:15: She definitely was a leader of both men and women.
40:18: No, she's a servant.
40:19: Yeah, I mean, she's a saint and that just means she's saved, right? Yes.
40:26: Okay.
40:26: And then she serves as a servant.
40:29: And maybe she's leading by example, but we're not given any indication that she has authority in some way.
40:36: And patron would just be just giving of her- What she has.
40:41: Yes, thank you.
40:42: That's a good way to summarize it.
40:44: Either money or her possessions, any of those things.
40:46: Possessions, that's what I was gonna say.
40:47: Okay.
40:48: So what else is it used to describe her? Well, the word for servant is the same as deacon.
40:55: Okay.
40:55: So if anything, you could use the account of Phoebe to make an argument for women being deacons.
41:03: But that's still not teaching.
41:04: It's not teaching.
41:05: We never see anything about Phoebe teaching anybody.
41:08: Right.
41:09: And just because you gather up supplies that are gonna go out and be distributed to the needy, and you give a person instruction, hey, make sure that group of supplies goes to that address.
41:19: That's not teaching anybody.
41:21: No.
41:22: It's not even giving authority.
41:24: No.
41:24: You're just giving direction.
41:25: Yes.
41:26: So at best, you're using the Phoebe argument to make an argument for women deacons, but you can't make an argument for there being women Sunday school teachers out of the example of Phoebe.
41:36: And that's the first one he goes to.
41:38: I don't know.
41:39: I don't mean to be overly critical, but that just sounds really lazy to me.
41:45: That's the first example he's got of why women can be teachers in a mixed class of men and women.
41:52: Okay, next.
41:53: So next example is Priscilla.
41:55: See, if I was gonna make the argument, that's where I would have started.
41:58: Right.
41:59: That's where I would have started, too.
42:00: Even though I disagree with him.
42:01: But it just seems a more reasonable place to start.
42:05: So we first meet Priscilla in Acts 18, he says.
42:08: Beginning in verse 24, we are introduced to Apollos, described as an eloquent, mighty man in the scriptures.
42:13: Yet he needed more training.
42:15: When he spoke in the synagogue at Ephesus, Achila, Priscilla's husband, and Priscilla heard him, took him to their home, and further trained him in the scriptures.
42:25: What is important, and by the way, it doesn't say that they took him to their home.
42:29: It just says they took him aside.
42:31: Right.
42:31: So wherever they met together to teach him and help him to see that Christ is the fulfillment of those things that he did not yet know.
42:41: So that was like an extension.
42:44: An extension? Like extended teaching? No, no, no.
42:47: Like an extension of the word.
42:48: So they took him to their home.
42:52: Yeah, right, right.
42:53: Okay, I see what you're saying.
42:54: So yeah, he's just assuming that they took him to their home.
42:57: It just says they took him aside.
42:59: Okay.
42:59: It doesn't say that they went to their home.
43:02: So anyway, all that to say, it troubles me that he's even naming chapter and verse.
43:08: Acts 18, beginning of verse 24, we're introduced to Apollos, but yet he's missing things or even adding details that aren't there.
43:15: That troubles me.
43:17: So anyway, he spoke in the synagogue at Ephesus.
43:20: They further trained him in the scriptures.
43:23: He goes on to say, what is important about this incident is that Priscilla's name is mentioned before Achila's in the next.
43:29: No, that's not what's important in this.
43:33: What's important is we get to know who Apollos is.
43:37: It's not that Priscilla's name is mentioned before Achila's doesn't mean anything.
43:43: Sometimes Mary's name comes before Joseph.
43:46: True.
43:46: And sometimes Joseph's name comes before Mary's.
43:50: Very true.
43:50: And sometimes Achila's name comes before Priscilla's.
43:54: It makes no difference whatsoever who's mentioned first here.
43:59: It doesn't give greater importance to Priscilla because her name comes before Achila.
44:04: That makes no difference whatsoever.
44:06: That's silly.
44:07: And that is eisegetical.
44:10: You are reading something into the text that the text does not say when you're trying to make those kinds of claims.
44:16: So anyway, he also said she's mentioned in Romans 16, 3, greet Priscia and Achila, my fellow workers.
44:23: Notice once again, she's mentioned first and considered to be a fellow worker with Paul.
44:26: But what about the times Achila's mentioned first? Right.
44:29: So he goes on to say.
44:30: That doesn't have anything to do with it.
44:32: He goes on to say, if women can teach mixed adult groups without violating the scripture, then how do we handle 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2? Now, I'm not going to get into his explanation for that.
44:44: Let me just go back to what he had said previously about 1 Timothy 2, because we've spent a lot of time on this already.
44:50: And I got to get to the next question.
44:51: Yes.
44:51: So anyway, he mentions about 1 Timothy 2, the apostle Paul writing to Timothy that women are to learn in silence, not usurping authority over the men.
45:00: That is a poor explanation of 1 Timothy 2, 11 to 15.
45:04: So here's what we read there.
45:05: 1 Timothy 2, 11, a woman must learn in quietness in all submission, but I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
45:19: For it was Adam who was formed first and then Eve.
45:22: And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into trespass.
45:28: But she will be saved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with self-restraint.
45:37: So she's not trying to move herself into those.
45:39: Right.
45:40: And she is even living in such a way that is proper for godly women.
45:44: For that word was used earlier, where it says, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, with modesty and self-restraint.
45:55: So she is not trying to do more than a godly woman should, but rather by means of good works as is proper for women professing godliness.
46:04: That's verse 10.
46:05: Yes.
46:06: So you see that expression of self-restraint is bookended on these instructions for women.
46:10: It's in verse 9, it's in verse 15.
46:13: But it says there that she's not even to assume the function of what a pastor does.
46:19: Right.
46:20: Paul never says women can't be overseers, like that expression itself is not said in that way.
46:27: Because what we have next going into chapter 3 are the qualifications for overseers.
46:31: Okay.
46:32: So he's not saying that women cannot be overseers, articulating it like that.
46:37: He's saying they can't even function in the role of what an overseer is supposed to do.
46:43: She cannot assume those duties.
46:46: A woman must learn in quietness in all submission.
46:50: Now, that's already a pretty bold thing for Paul to say.
46:54: A woman must learn, because women were not even allowed in the synagogues.
46:59: Right.
47:00: So here for Paul to say that a woman is permitted to learn, that's great.
47:06: So she can be in church with the men.
47:09: A wife can be there with her husband, learning along with him, but she can't assume the teaching.
47:16: Yeah.
47:16: And I get that.
47:17: A Sunday school class is not church, and I agree with that.
47:20: So you're going to Sunday school is not the same as gathering with the corporate assembly, where you're also celebrating the Lord's Supper together.
47:28: Okay.
47:29: You shouldn't be doing that in a Sunday school class.
47:31: You're doing that with the whole body together.
47:33: Right.
47:33: Yeah.
47:34: And even when a person gets baptized, you do that together.
47:36: That's a corporate ordinance that God has given to the church that we celebrate those things together.
47:43: So the Lord's Supper and baptism.
47:44: Right.
47:44: Sunday school class, that's going to be more Bible teaching.
47:48: But again, a woman should not have that teaching authority even over the men in the class.
47:54: And just because Priscia and Aquila went together with Apollos and led him into a deeper understanding of what the Word says, that's one guy.
48:02: That's one man.
48:04: And Apollos had some errors that he needed corrected.
48:09: And even though Priscia, didn't she start it? Or Priscilla, whatever her name is.
48:14: Didn't she start with herself and then she brought Aquila into it? No, it doesn't say anything like that.
48:20: Oh, it doesn't.
48:21: No.
48:21: So let's go.
48:22: Because I've heard that before, is that she started, she noticed, and then she brought in Aquila.
48:28: So let's go to Acts 18, beginning in verse 18.
48:31: Okay.
48:32: And Paul, having remained many days longer, took leave of the brothers and put out to sea for Syria.
48:37: And with him were Priscilla and Aquila.
48:39: In Sincreia he had his hair cut, for he was keeping a vow.
48:42: So here we have Paul, Priscilla and Aquila.
48:45: Okay.
48:46: Verse 19, and they arrived at Ephesus and he left them there.
48:51: Now he himself entered the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.
48:53: Okay.
48:53: So now they're in Ephesus.
48:54: Right.
48:54: Let me skip down to verse 24.
48:56: Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, arrived at Ephesus and he was mighty in the scriptures.
49:05: This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John.
49:17: Okay.
49:18: So he only knows the things of Christ up until...
49:21: The baptism.
49:22: His baptism with John.
49:23: Okay.
49:24: And he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue.
49:27: But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
49:34: Oh, it was both.
49:36: And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him.
49:42: So obviously his teachings corrected.
49:44: He's now teaching rightly because of what Priscilla and Aquila brought to him.
49:49: Right.
49:50: And when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.
50:01: And that may not have been Apollos's understanding.
50:04: So you're talking about a man who's preaching an incomplete gospel.
50:09: Right.
50:09: And Priscilla and Aquila took him aside.
50:12: And because he believes what they say, we see that Apollos is a genuine follower of God.
50:18: And it was meant by God for him to be able to continue on teaching and proclaiming that Jesus is the Christ.
50:26: But it never says Priscilla dominates the teaching.
50:29: She initiates the teaching.
50:32: That she's...
50:32: It wasn't her alone.
50:34: She wasn't ever by herself.
50:36: That she's the one that's guiding Apollos in these things.
50:39: It was her and her husband together.
50:41: This is a husband and a wife duo who are discipling a single man not teaching a Sunday school class.
50:48: Right.
50:49: You can't take this as an argument for, see, women are able to teach.
50:52: If anything, you can take this as...
50:54: Biblical counseling? Yes.
50:56: Maybe.
50:57: Of sorts.
50:58: But you have a husband and a wife evangelism team together.
51:02: Oh, evangelism.
51:02: That's perfect.
51:03: It might be more along the lines of evangelism.
51:06: It's much closer to that.
51:07: Yeah.
51:08: Yes, definitely.
51:10: Than it is to teaching a Sunday school class together.
51:13: Okay.
51:13: So my question is, women can teach.
51:19: Yes.
51:20: They can teach other women.
51:21: Right.
51:22: Of all ages.
51:24: From what we understand, yeah.
51:26: From what's given to us in scripture.
51:27: But only women.
51:28: Older women teaching the younger women is the model that we have in Titus 2.
51:32: Right.
51:33: Okay.
51:34: So then here's for clarification for me.
51:36: Okay.
51:36: Okay.
51:37: So is it boys up to a certain age where we just say, oh, you're an adult now? Or they become mature enough.
51:48: But if it's because they become mature enough to be under the authority of just men, does that include baby in the faith men? You see where I'm going with this? Or is that confusing? So even if a man is older, but he's an infant in the faith.
52:05: Just saved.
52:05: Yes.
52:05: He can be led by women.
52:07: I'm just curious.
52:09: Well.
52:09: Not led per se, but maybe taught, you know.
52:12: I could see it being something that might be equivalent to what Priscilla and Akilah did.
52:17: Okay.
52:17: It would be an informal sort of a, you know, let us help you out with this.
52:22: Sure.
52:22: Show you this in the scriptures, help train you up, that sort of a thing.
52:24: Okay.
52:25: It should never be a one-on-one between a woman and a man.
52:28: Oh, I agree.
52:29: Totally.
52:29: I mean.
52:29: But I meant like a class.
52:30: There's just appearance reasons why that.
52:32: Because we were talking about Sunday school.
52:34: Yeah.
52:34: No.
52:34: And just curious.
52:35: In a class, no.
52:36: I don't think it should be a class.
52:37: Okay.
52:38: There should be a man in that class that's leading men and women.
52:41: Okay.
52:41: Well, that's what I was thinking.
52:42: Yeah.
52:42: But then, I mean, like, where's the cutoff between boy and man? Well, that's, yeah, that can be some muddy ground.
52:50: Yeah.
52:51: Because some think that, you know, once they turn 13, others are known until they're 18.
52:55: I mean, like, where's the.
52:57: I would still prefer that teenage boys should be under the teaching of men.
53:03: Okay.
53:03: But if you've got a youth group where there's husband and wife teams helping to lead the youth group.
53:09: Because that's the way it was in my youth group.
53:11: There were four men and their wives.
53:13: Four wives.
53:14: Okay.
53:14: So we had eight youth leaders.
53:16: Wow.
53:16: And we considered their wives as much leaders.
53:18: But they never really taught us.
53:20: The teaching was the men.
53:22: Sure.
53:22: The women were there.
53:24: They were godly women.
53:25: They helped to guide us in an understanding of, you know, just life application and things like that.
53:30: But the men were still the teachers in youth group.
53:32: Gotcha.
53:33: At no point were any of the wives ever getting up with their Bibles and leading a Bible study lesson.
53:37: Right.
53:38: They would lead the girls.
53:39: But you still had those husband and wife teams together in the youth group.
53:42: That seemed acceptable to me.
53:44: And the way that that was patterned, I don't see that there was anything going on there that may have been outside the bounds of what Paul says regarding how men and women are to be in the church.
53:55: Sure.
53:55: And acknowledging their respective roles in the church.
53:59: But yeah, with teenagers, it would be much better if a teenage guy is under the teaching of a man.
54:07: He needs that.
54:09: Yeah.
54:09: He has to have that.
54:10: Yeah.
54:11: Timothy was taught by his grandmother and his mother.
54:15: Right.
54:15: That's not a Sunday school sort of class, sort of a setting.
54:19: Right.
54:20: But he's still receiving biblical teaching from the matriarchs in his household.
54:24: In the home.
54:25: Yeah, in the home.
54:26: Right.
54:26: His father was a pagan.
54:28: His father wasn't going to lead him, a Greek pagan from what we understand.
54:32: Right.
54:32: So he's not leading him in biblical truth.
54:35: That was his mother and his grandmother who were doing that.
54:38: That's still very informal.
54:40: You know, you're still talking about the home in that particular case.
54:43: Sure.
54:44: But as a young man coming up being taught by women, there's nothing wrong with women teaching in those senses.
54:50: But in a corporate gathering or in a mixed group, the pattern that we see is that it should be men.
54:56: And this responder has not given any example, not a single one from the Old Testament or New Testament that would make the case for a Sunday school class being taught by a man and woman.
55:07: It should be, even as we see teaching outlined for the corporate gathering of the church, that men are leading those classes in mixed company.
55:17: Right.
55:18: Not men and women.
55:19: Women can teach women.
55:21: But if you've got men and women together, then it should be a man that's leading that class.
55:26: Fair enough.
55:27: So there you go.
55:27: Now, this next question I mentioned does go right along with that.
55:31: And I think we've probably answered it for the most part.
55:33: But this is LJ.
55:35: He says, hey, Pastor Gabe and Becky, I have been a follower of what videos and podcasts for many years now.
55:42: I came out of the big evangelical name it, claim it, charismatic prosperity movement about eight years ago.
55:48: Praise God for that.
55:49: Oh, amen.
55:50: The two key influences for me, along with discernment from the Holy Spirit, was Paul Washer's shocking youth message.
55:56: I love that one, too.
55:57: Yeah.
55:58: And your what videos on speaking in tongues? Oh, cool.
56:02: I shared your tongues video on Facebook and eventually got literally banned from the heretical church I was attending at that time.
56:09: Ouch.
56:10: For my video.
56:11: Wow.
56:13: Good stuff, he says.
56:14: Almost said God stuff.
56:15: But yeah, it's God stuff, too.
56:18: I am very thankful for your ministry.
56:20: Thank you for that, LJ.
56:21: That is really encouraging.
56:23: Currently, I attend a small Baptist church that very much honors the ministry of the word.
56:28: After every Sunday sermon, we have a time where small groups gather to discuss application questions related to the sermon.
56:34: There is an emphasis on discussion and not necessarily teaching.
56:38: My question is, is it biblically appropriate for a woman to lead those discussions? In addition to this, our church reads through the same passages of Scripture throughout the week, and there is a brief time Sunday mornings for people to share something they gleaned from those passages.
56:53: This is open to the entire congregation.
56:55: Would it be biblically appropriate for a woman to give her comments on something she learned from Scripture in the context of the congregation gathered at Sunday morning service? Where is the line between teaching and just merely discussing? How would this apply to Bible study groups as well? God bless your ministry, you and your family.
57:14: Okay, a couple of things first.
57:15: So you've got two scenarios that you've asked a question about here.
57:18: So let's deal with the first one first.
57:21: You've got a scenario in which you've got discussion that's not necessarily teaching, you say.
57:29: And my question is, is it biblically appropriate for a woman to lead those discussions? I don't really know what leading those discussions means.
57:39: Like, is she the one that – maybe if you've got a piece of paper with questions on it to kind of help get the class rolling.
57:46: Yeah.
57:47: Is it okay if a woman is the one who grabs that piece of paper and reads the question first? I'm just kind of giving an example.
57:53: Okay.
57:53: I don't see why that would be wrong because I don't know what you mean by leading the discussion.
57:59: Like, she's not standing up there with her Bible open and leading the teaching because you said that it's not really teaching, it's just discussion.
58:05: Yeah.
58:06: If it's a group of people and there's – and class involvement is encouraged, then I don't see why that's any different than even sitting in your living room and talking about those kinds of things.
58:17: That's what I was thinking, too.
58:18: It's just a different environment.
58:21: Yeah.
58:22: It's good to ask a question about it.
58:23: I get it.
58:24: But yeah, at least the way that you outlined it there, I don't see why it would be inappropriate for a woman to really be the first one to ask the question and kind of get things started in the conversation.
58:35: You know what I mean? Yeah.
58:36: But then with the next one, you put it in a more corporate setting.
58:39: So the second scenario you have, it's the Sunday morning gathering and people share something that they glean from those passages, and this is open to the entire congregation.
58:50: Again, I really don't know the formality of this because, like, for example, I'm going to draw from the church that we just attended in Arizona at Providence Reform Baptist Church in Casa Grande.
59:02: There's the announcements that are done at the beginning, and I'd watched a couple of services before we even went down there.
59:07: So they have about 10 minutes of announcements and things like that at the start, but then the elder that's leading all of that, he gets to a point where he says, now let's come together for worship.
59:18: Let's prepare our hearts for worship.
59:20: And they read the call to worship, and now we're in the corporate setting at that point.
59:25: Now, I'm not using that as an example of, see, women are all chiming in in there.
59:28: That's not what I'm saying.
59:29: But the beginning of that with all the announcements and everything is very informal.
59:34: So is it that sort of a thing where you've not really come into that corporate time of worship yet? People are just kind of – they're kind of taking their seats, and they're talking about what they learned from last week, and so they're speaking up as though there's still conversation going on.
59:49: If that's the scenario, then I don't see why that's necessarily inappropriate.
59:54: But if you're talking about it really being the corporate time of worship, then everything must be done in order, as we're told in 1 Corinthians 14.
01:00:03: Yeah.
01:00:04: To me, it sounds kind of chaotic.
01:00:05: If everybody is giving their enlightenment of what they learned from the passage, then that sounds more like what they do afterward.
01:00:18: Yeah.
01:00:18: When we talk about – I guess my question would be, why is that even there in the first place? Yeah.
01:00:25: I mean, if that's what your church wants to do, that's fine.
01:00:28: But is that sort of an informal, conversational sort of a thing that's happening before the service starts? That's what I take it as.
01:00:35: Right.
01:00:35: I could be wrong.
01:00:37: Some things to consider.
01:00:38: I guess by the way that you created those scenarios there, I don't see – If they go up to a mic, is that any different? Yeah.
01:00:46: I mean, are you raising prayer requests, even? Yeah.
01:00:48: People speaking up and saying, hey, I have a request for this.
01:00:51: I don't know.
01:00:52: It doesn't – neither one of those scenarios seem like the corporate gathering.
01:00:56: Right.
01:00:56: Or even a formal Sunday school class.
01:00:59: Right.
01:00:59: Where you've got a teacher that's teaching the class what the Bible says about something.
01:01:04: So in neither one of those scenarios, it all seems kind of rather informal.
01:01:08: Right.
01:01:08: So you just kind of have to decide as a church how you're defining those things.
01:01:11: I think it's important to define those things.
01:01:13: And talk to your pastor about that.
01:01:15: Yeah.
01:01:15: Ask him the question as well.
01:01:16: I think that would be really good also.
01:01:18: Talk to your pastors and your elders.
01:01:20: Yes.
01:01:20: That's Becky and I's default answer.
01:01:22: Ask your pastor about that.
01:01:24: It's a great answer.
01:01:25: One of these Friday episodes, it's just going to be the way that we respond to everything.
01:01:30: We'll take a question.
01:01:31: I don't know.
01:01:32: Talk to your pastor about that.
01:01:33: See what he says.
01:01:34: No, we really appreciate you listening and sending in your questions.
01:01:38: And once again, if you have any question for the broadcast, you can send it to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail.com.
01:01:44: Now somebody with the last few answers that we've given, somebody is going to say highly ironic that this is coming from a husband and wife who are, you know, giving it.
01:01:55: Isn't your wife giving instruction here? Yeah.
01:01:58: No, she's not.
01:01:58: She's asking questions.
01:01:59: I am.
01:02:00: For Becky and me.
01:02:02: For Becky and me, this is just a conversation between us.
01:02:05: Yes.
01:02:05: And you're eavesdropping on it.
01:02:07: Yep.
01:02:09: That's how you convinced me to be on here.
01:02:10: That's right.
01:02:11: Exactly.
01:02:11: You're just talking to me.
01:02:13: Yep.
01:02:15: So yeah, you'll notice that I'm very much leading the teaching here.
01:02:19: And this is not a formal Sunday school class in any way, shape or form.
01:02:23: No.
01:02:24: Becky, ask questions.
01:02:25: I do.
01:02:26: I ask a lot of questions.
01:02:28: And the people, by the way, responses that we'll get from people will say, I love when Becky chimes in because you're saying exactly what I'm thinking.
01:02:37: But what about this? Ah, yes.
01:02:38: That was the question I had.
01:02:40: And Becky just asked it.
01:02:42: Right.
01:02:43: I have the majority vote, I guess.
01:02:47: I've got this mindset where I'm like, I'm teaching.
01:02:49: We're just rolling.
01:02:50: Yeah.
01:02:50: And you keep going.
01:02:52: I'm like, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
01:02:53: Let's back up.
01:02:55: I'm not even thinking about any objections people might have to this.
01:02:58: And Becky asked a question.
01:02:59: But what about this? Yes.
01:03:01: Right.
01:03:01: And then she and then she, like you guys, probably are blending Bible stories together.
01:03:06: Oh my goodness, I can't believe I did that.
01:03:11: Well, that was fun.
01:03:11: It was pretty set, though.
01:03:13: It was like they were the same story.
01:03:15: Right.
01:03:16: Wow.
01:03:17: I'm going to have to read those again.
01:03:20: This next question is from Brittany.
01:03:22: I'm going to save it until next week because we're already over an hour here.
01:03:25: But I still I got to read the beginning of this.
01:03:27: OK.
01:03:28: Hi, Pastor Gabe and Becky.
01:03:29: First of all, I laugh so hard when the both of you go off on a tangent on a random topic like car maintenance, stories about your kids, old people, et cetera.
01:03:41: It's stories about old people.
01:03:45: Well, we did today.
01:03:47: Well, that's true.
01:03:47: I guess we started with that.
01:03:49: It seriously makes my Fridays much better.
01:03:53: And I greatly appreciate your ministry.
01:03:55: I look forward to meeting you both at G3.
01:03:57: Oh, yay.
01:03:58: Which is just a couple of weeks.
01:04:00: Brittany, we're going to start with your question next week.
01:04:02: Yes.
01:04:03: But I just had to read the beginning of that.
01:04:04: That's awesome.
01:04:05: I love it.
01:04:07: All right, let's finish with prayer.
01:04:09: Yes, let's.
01:04:10: Heavenly Father, we thank you for this time together.
01:04:12: We thank you for the joy and the laughter and what we learn from your word.
01:04:15: And I pray that we know how to apply these things and live according to them.
01:04:20: Teach us all your ways that we may know all the scriptures.
01:04:24: Let us not be embarrassed by any part of it.
01:04:29: And we also are not ashamed of the gospel.
01:04:32: Romans 1 16, for it is the power of God for salvation to all who believe.
01:04:36: By faith in Jesus Christ, our sins are forgiven.
01:04:40: We have fellowship with God and the promise of everlasting life.
01:04:43: And as the judgment of God is coming upon this world, all of the unrighteousness of men being under the wrath of God.
01:04:51: We know that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and will dwell with you in your kingdom in victory forever.
01:04:58: I pray that we know how to live out righteously these things that have been proclaimed to us in your word.
01:05:05: And we're never ashamed to say, because the Bible says.
01:05:09: It's in Jesus name we pray.
01:05:10: Amen.
01:05:11: Amen.
01:05:33: It's stuck.
01:05:34: It's stuck.
01:05:35: It's stuck.
01:05:36: Yep.
01:05:37: Have you not had that problem? Like a fold in your esophagus or the air bubble just kind of, you know.
01:05:42: It just feels like it's right there.
01:05:43: Like a J pipe, a J pipe under a toilet or under a sink.
01:05:46: Oh my goodness.
01:05:47: Your burp is right, right in there.
01:05:49: Right there, right there.
01:05:53: Oh man.
01:05:55: I'm going to take a drink of water.
01:05:58: So you can get a burp that's stuck too? No, so I can get rid of my stuck burp.
01:06:02: It's right there in the J pipe in my esophagus.
01:06:07: Flush it down.
01:06:08: Why do they call it a J pipe? It's more like an S.
01:06:11: Sure.
01:06:12: Or an N.
01:06:14: An N.
01:06:14: Yeah, it is.
01:06:15: It is more like an N.
01:06:16: Yeah.
01:06:16: So it would be an N pipe.
01:06:17: N pipe.
01:06:18: Why do they call it a J pipe? I don't know.
01:06:21: I didn't make it.
01:06:22: Well, you know a bunch of trivia.
01:06:25: Like useless trivia.
01:06:26: So why is it called J pipe? Yeah, and I'm pretty sure it was John Crapper that even came up with that if I remember right.
01:06:35: You're kidding.
01:06:36: That is actually the man's name who invented the flushing system in the toilet.
01:06:41: Yes.
01:06:41: That is literally his name.
01:06:42: That's why we call it the John or the Crapper.
01:06:46: And that word.
01:06:47: Oh, that poor man.
01:06:47: Yeah.
01:06:48: No, no.
01:06:48: I mean, all these words came from him because his name is John Crapper.
01:06:57: Well, I mean, I guess he's proud of it.
01:07:03: Yeah.
01:07:04: So he was the one that if you make the pipe.
01:07:08: I don't think I would be very proud of that.
01:07:11: If you make a pipe shaped like this, it traps the water in it so that the smell doesn't come up through.
01:07:17: Right.
01:07:17: Of course.
01:07:17: Yeah.
01:07:18: Yeah.
01:07:19: I think he was the guy that came up with that anyway.
01:07:21: I know that he was involved in the invention of the toilet.
01:07:25: I'm not sure if he's the one that came up with that.
01:07:27: Oh, my.
01:07:27: The end pipe.
01:07:29: The end.
01:07:30: It's an end.
01:07:34: It's the little things I want to know.
01:07:36: Yeah.
01:07:38: A very curvy capital end.
01:07:41: It is.
01:07:42: Somebody who couldn't make.
01:07:43: It looks like a kindergartner's end.
01:07:45: Yeah, right.
01:07:45: Somebody who couldn't make their corners when they were writing that it's an end pipe.
01:07:51: All right.
01:07:51: It's better than a J.
01:07:53: I mean, it doesn't look like a J at all.
01:07:55: Unless you cut part of it off.
01:07:59: Or is it two J's put together? Yeah, that's right.
01:08:02: JJ.
01:08:03: It's a JJ pipe.
01:08:05: That's so weird.
01:08:08: Oh, anyway.
01:08:11: All right.
01:08:12: You ready? Nope.
01:08:14: Did you get rid of your stuck burp? No, it's still there.
01:08:19: And I'm afraid once I start, it's going to come out in the middle of it.
01:08:22: Yeah, there will.
01:08:23: This is when we understand the toot.
01:08:32: It's a good thing this isn't part of the program.
01:08:34: Yeah, you know.
01:08:36: Wow, David Beck, you're really juvenile.
01:08:42: That we are.
01:08:44: I don't think anybody really grows up, though, you know? Yeah, you got to hold on to a little bit of that.
01:08:50: I mean, it was my grandma who won the belching contest between me and my brother and her.
01:08:57: This is a story I don't know that you've told me.
01:09:01: But I'll catch up on it later.
01:09:05: It was awesome.
01:09:07: I was so proud.
01:09:10: So was she, apparently.
01:09:15: She put me to shame.
01:09:17: Anyway, OK.
01:09:20: This is when we understand the text.
01:09:22: A daily Bible commentary to help encourage your time in the Word.
01:09:25: Thank you for listening, and please leave a five-star review to help others find our podcast.
01:09:33: Here once again is Pastor Gabe.
01:09:35: Yeah, we'll try that one again.
01:09:36: OK, good.
01:09:37: I didn't have...