Q&A Session

And then we'll ask you guys to come up, okay?

Sound good?

All right.

A good S .O .S. Johnson story is a friend of mine told me that when he was at Dallas Seminary and the Ryrie Study

Bible had just come out and he and Charles Ryrie were friends, but someone said, can we use the Ryrie Study Bible for

our exam?

And he said, I do believe the Ryrie Study Bible would only confuse you.

So I liked it when Byron Yawn, our friend went up to Dr. Johnson after

the Signature of God message came out.

Grant Jeffrey, I believe, wrote the Signature of God.

And if you look at the Bible upside down through a computer with 3D lenses, it tells you inside

information.

And so Byron went up to Dr. Johnson and said, well, what do you think of that?

And he said, I think it's kind of okay.

And he and his wife were carrying their Hebrew interlinears.

I was there.

But anyway, you wanna listen to S .O .S. Johnson.

You have a Proverbs 32 wife when she has a Hebrew interlinear.

That's right.

Pat, we're gonna do some funny ones and some not so funny ones.

I saw your Twitter feed and you had a picture of you surrounded by all kinds of bodyguards.

It looked like you were rebuking Joe Osteen.

What happened with that?

Tell me that when you went down and met him.

When I met Joel, Joel and I go way back.

Can't you tell?

The funny thing was I went to the service.

I was preaching at a church, Ken Ramey's church in Houston.

And he said, what are we gonna do tonight?

We're gonna go hang out or whatever.

You name what you wanna do.

And I said, I don't care.

What do you wanna do?

Well, I've always wanted to go hear Joel Osteen, but I've never been, I've been afraid to go and I figured you'd

wanna go.

So the Abendroth kind of reputation precedes us.

So we went to go hear Joel.

And after, or during the service, I gotta tell you, this is gonna, I'll cut to the chase.

He said he'd meet anybody who wanted to meet him.

And of course, Ken, my friend went, you wanna meet him, don't you?

I go, yeah, I wanna meet him.

And so stood in line, bodyguards there kind of vetting you and asking you, you know, big, super

intimidating kind of guy with like a purple shirt on.

So they're trying to give the soft touch.

But anyway, we all talked ahead of time.

There were three of us and decided he's been confronted for his erroneous kinds of views that he

has.

This is the place to do it.

But let's ask good questions.

So we got up there, it was our turn.

And I asked him where he learned his techniques.

I tried to be respectful about it.

He said, what do you mean?

I said, you know how you get people to do things.

He said, like what?

I said, you know, you can get people, you get all these people to do what you want them to do.

And I just wondered how you learned how to do that.

He said, oh, I don't know.

And you know, he wanted to be, who's next?

That's a Steve Lawson.

So then it was, I said, well, is there some book, somebody who's inspired you, some kind of biography?

And he said, well, no, I guess maybe Billy Graham.

The guy after me said, what book would I read to learn your theology?

And he said, I don't really read those kinds of books.

And so my friend pushed him a little bit.

And then he said, well, I guess maybe John Maxwell.

If you don't know, John Maxwell's like a leadership guy.

He's not a theology guy.

So anyway, the funny thing was during the service, and we could talk about the sadness of this kind of thing.

But during the service, I posted a picture, sent it to a friend of mine.

And he said, you know, I'm jealous.

I'd like to see that.

So then afterward, I posted a picture on Twitter of me with Joel.

And then my friend said -.

Why do you keep pointing at me when you say Joel?

Because I'm talking to you.

I posted the picture on Twitter and my friend just said, you win.

So anyway, kind of a funny story.

All right, Pat, a little bit more about social stuff and social gospel, social justice.

We'll mix some of these things in.

I'm thinking about the book of Romans.

Slavery in Romans, lust in Romans, immorality in Romans.

And it's blatantly obvious that there's no social justice in Romans.

And Paul could have given in this manifesto all this information about how to

redeem culture.

And yet in 16 chapters, there's nothing.

What's your take on that?

Well, I agree with you.

In chapter 12, you have, you'd be transformed as a Christian.

Not you're gonna transform some external kind of entity, culture, society.

So I'm with you.

I would chime right in and say, what about first Corinthians?

And all the things that would have been going on in Corinth.

And what does Paul say?

I determined to know, I resolved to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

There are all those other needs, but he preached Christ to them.

So that's what I would say.

I think we're very confused.

Maybe one more thing about that, Mike, is I'm wondering if we're feeling so guilty for not

loving our neighbors, which is something we're supposed to do.

Okay, that's something we're supposed to do as individuals out of gratitude to God.

We're supposed to love our neighbors.

And so you can do that and I can do that.

And we're feeling so guilty for not doing it.

Now we wanna harness the church to do what we're supposed to do so we don't feel

so guilty.

But what's the church called to do?

The church is called to preach the gospel.

I, as a member of the church, I'm called to preach the gospel, but I'm also called to love my neighbor.

And so we're getting the two confused.

How about this?

I read somebody recently and they said, well, there are all kinds of needs.

Why doesn't the church have an ambulance service?

Healthcare's overpriced and it's so expensive.

There are people who can't afford it.

The church should have an ambulance service.

Well, where does that end?

There's so many good things to do and so many needs, but the church is called to be about

one thing, preaching Christ.

So that's what we do.

And we let those other things be done by others who can do them.

And sometimes those others are us in a different kind of sphere, in a different kind of realm.

You should love your neighbor.

Do you wanna start an ambulance service?

Start one, but don't make the church start one.

It's not what we're called to be or do.

I listened to a sermon in Omaha last week or a couple of weeks ago, and they went on and on about this tragic

sex trafficking of young girls, even in Omaha, Nebraska.

I felt bad.

I felt emotional.

I thought this is awful.

Somebody should do something.

And then the pastor calls the church to be all about this.

This is like our new mission, our new ministry, our new thing that we're all about.

And I'm thinking, we're gonna now burn the church out on more good

things that we're supposed to be doing as individuals.

And that's not what the church is called to do.

So anyway.

Pat, I think the guys would be interested in how the Lord worked through all this.

I asked you on the radio today about this as well.

The guy that preached the gospel to you the most in college ends up,

he's out of ministry.

Maybe he's apostate.

What does that tell us about the power of the gospel?

And what does it tell us about if we're frail and weak in our delivery,

and we're not the perfect evangelistic preachers, but still it's the sovereign spirit using the word

of God in the life of a person.

It tells us what you just said.

It's all about the sovereignty of God.

See, I asked the question, this is really time for me to preach.

That's right.

I wanna talk.

Can you give us more detail about the guy?

The guy who shared the gospel with me, I'm so thankful for the clarity.

I'm so thankful for the persistency, the patience, all of those things.

How about this guy?

He had the audacity to question my faith.

I'm so thankful for that.

Tragically, fast forward a lot of years, 25 years, he's no longer with

his wife.

Last I heard, he had a boyfriend, left the kids at home and just crashed and

burned.

I don't know if he's denied the faith or not.

God uses his word.

His word is powerful and his spirit is powerful.

And if God spoke through Balaam's ass, then he'll speak through somebody like that guy named John.

And so I'm thankful.

I'm so thankful that God's gospel is powerful and his spirit is powerful.

Sometime I wanna do a sermon called Discipled by Demas.

How about that?

Think about it.

Think about people that Judas evangelized.

Their hope is in Christ, not in Judas who evangelized them or Demas who evangelized them.

We have to remember that.

That's why we don't preach ourselves, by the way.

So thankful for grace.

How about the power of prayer?

We have loved ones that we want to see come to faith in Christ Jesus.

And God lends his ear to our prayers and we have a great mediator.

Tell us the story about the man who you ran into at Omaha Bible Church that you saw

last in high school, junior high.

Guy's name is Kevin, Kevin Ullman.

And he came to Omaha Bible Church for a baptism.

And I was baptizing people and I saw him out there.

He looked a little older, but I thought my brain was racing.

I thought, Kevin Ullman, he was a Christian.

That's why he didn't laugh at my jokes in high school, you know, kind of thing.

And it was like time stopped and I'm like, it all makes sense now.

So we got together for lunch and he said, I just have to tell you that my Baptist or whatever it was, youth pastor said,

pray for somebody you think is unsavable.

See, he didn't have to finish the story either.

I'm like, I know.

And he just pointed at me, you're the unsavable guy.

So I love to tell the story, not because it's about me, but because every one of us are unsavable

apart from God's sovereign grace, apart from God's intervening, breaking in.

So pray for people, pray for your kids, pray for your wife.

If she's not a believer for your parents, grandparents.

Pat and I were rejoicing today together about how God saved us.

Mom saved, Pat saved, I'm saved.

And we were just in the Lutheran family.

You were saved if you got water put on your head, right?

Baptismal regeneration.

And we knew about God.

We wouldn't deny Jesus or anything like that.

He was the son of God.

And just thinking what God does in the life of a family in his sovereign purposes.

We had some neighbors and they were Baptist and they were really weird.

They went to church on Sunday night and we knew they were super serious.

And sometimes we would be over to their house on Sunday night and they would eat cereal at 5 p .m. and then go to

church.

And then we were laughing because it's Sunday night now at my house.

It's just eat cereal, whatever, we'll see you at church.

And we remember going to Mark Paulson.

He was my age.

He lived right over the fence and he got cancer.

He was supposed to die.

And I was impressed with his Baptist family because they actually went around Mark's bed, had their

hands on him and prayed for him to be healed.

And he was healed.

He went from about 50 pounds as a teenager and now the wildest thing is Mark Paulson is

a congregant at Omaha Bible Church.

And so just to see God work.

And so we don't always see the effects but we know God blesses his word and we know our

responsibility is to faithfully proclaim the truth.

And I was just encouraged today as I rehearsed our Savior and his work in our

life.

All right, let's talk about the courtroom model that's dominating evangelicalism.

Instead of judicial, forensic, declared righteous, we have this relational model, a family model,

a sharing model.

What explains this, do you think?

Maybe, good question.

I don't know the answer.

What explains it?

Maybe because we wanna preach ourselves in light of what I was saying tonight.

Think about it with me if you would, guys.

We're moving from proclaiming truths about Christ's work on our behalf and justification by faith alone to

following, to experiencing father only, don't talk about the judge.

I suppose it's an overreaction.

We overreact to one thing and then we swing the pendulum the other way.

And Mike and I were talking about it earlier.

It's important that we remember that it's a false choice.

Is God judge or is God father?

You need to redefine the terms of the question.

That's right, it's a false choice.

He's both and the Bible emphasizes both.

And if we lose sight of one or the other, then we're out of balance.

And so, but when I wanna talk about me and my experience and let me tell you all about what I've gone through,

it's not helpful.

No wonder people are denying justification by faith alone.

They've never heard of it before.

Think feminism has anything to do with the relational model versus the

stark judicial courtroom scene?

Certainly could play into it.

You know, what starts first?

What feeds what?

We don't wanna preach.

We don't wanna be bold.

We don't wanna be courageous.

Men don't act like men.

So we're not strong and with our convictions and that sort of thing.

All right, let me just do a couple more and then we'll have the guys ask questions if they have them.

Pat, I don't like all this.

Tell me how you really feel.

These days, instead of the essence of sin being unbelief, which leads to lawlessness, which manifests in

immorality, everybody's talking about sin now.

The root of it is idolatry.

In other words, making something good ultimate.

That's the new talk.

And it's from Kierkegaard.

It's not from the Bible.

Of course, idolatry is sin.

Do you know what is explaining this idolatry talk where idolatry is the root of all sin

instead of one of the fruits of it?

You got something good and just, if you make it ultimate, then you're robbing yourself.

God really wants you to enjoy your life.

And if you take sex, which is good and make it ultimate, and that becomes the idol, then you lose out on God.

That's the way people talk now to postmoderns.

Just important, I think, I'm with you.

And it's important that we think in terms of what does scripture say about sin?

So let's start there.

Idolatry is sin, but is that somehow the new paradigm for everything?

Well, the Bible also says that sin is lawlessness.

Unbelief, and all of these categories, and we want to do our very best to put the data together and then come up

with a conclusion about here's what we believe about sin.

Instead of just having it be one of those things, it's not gonna be helpful.

Plus, you're hitting the nail on the head, Mike, when you say, historically, when have people talked like this?

Maybe there are good guys in history who talk like this.

Maybe there are bad guys in history who talk like this.

Kierkegaard isn't a good guy.

So he plays for the other team.

He made some right statements, but he tends to play for the other team, not for the evangelical

team.

And so when people are talking like Kierkegaard, beware, be careful.

We've heard this before, kind of thing.

It's a little bit different issue, but when Rob Bell's Velvet Elvis thing came out, it was just anti -machan

all over again with new style.

So when we hear all about everything, idolatry, idolatry, idolatry, there's some truth to it, but

where's that coming from?

And have we seen that historically before?

And maybe we need to be careful.

You took a lot of flack for your article on Velvet Elvis, and in typical Abendrothian form, it was very nuanced and

subtle as you wrote it.

I think it was entitled, Why Rob Bell Makes Me Mad.

I've been in counseling about it ever since.

I'm gonna just give you some names.

This is the last little segment here, and we'll have the guys ask.

I'm gonna give you some names, and then you can just tell me what you think of the names.

You can respond with one word, a sentence, a paragraph, or I'm just gonna give some names, okay?

N .T. Wright.

Bad.

Just one word answers?

No, that's fine, that's fine.

When N .T. Wright says the sinlessness of Jesus is overrated, I'm pretty much done.

Denies imputation of Christ's righteousness, so he denies the foundation for justification by faith alone.

He's really cool.

I don't know when a purple robe and a backward collar became cool.

What's it, priestly colors and stuff, and they have to go get those little shells out of the ocean to make the purple back in

the old days.

But somehow he's really cool, but you better be careful.

One guy in Omaha, a pastor there, I said, why are you promoting N .T. Wright?

What's the deal?

He's got the hip, cool, happening church.

I said, why are you promoting N .T. Wright?

He said, well, N .T. Wright, you have to see, is wrong on justification,

but he's an ally when it comes to the gospel.

That's when I do a Scooby -Doo, and I go, I don't get it.

And then he said, well, you won't understand this because you haven't been trained in tri -perspectivalism like I have.

He said that to you?

Yeah.

So I thought, you know, that's kind of how I think about that.

If you're wrong on justification, you're wrong on the gospel.

And what he meant was N .T. Wright promoted a conservative view on the resurrection.

Yeah, conservative within liberal Anglicanism.

And so you just have to be careful.

I mean, if you get the justification thing wrong, how about, D .A. Carson said it well in the Hebrews class we

had with him.

He said, and if he were sitting in this chair in a British Canadian accent, he would use the

word as he did with us, slippery.

And he keeps changing his argument.

Carson said, we keep critiquing him and challenging his views in one writing, and then he

changes it and basically says, I don't believe that.

And he says something else somewhere else.

There's a reason why we don't sell one N .T. Wright book in this church.

We don't want our people to read it.

Yeah, yeah.

Watch out, he's hip and cool and unorthodox.

I think the women swooned over Whitfield when he pronounced Mesopotamia.

I don't swoon when D .A. Carson pronounces genre, genre, but pretty close.

Okay.

Only Steve Cooley knows what I'm talking about.

Okay, a couple other names here.

Mark Driscoll.

Who?

Tim Keller.

I haven't heard much about him lately.

Yeah, kind of off the map.

Tim Keller.

That's why these guys pay the big bucks to come to the conference.

They can't see this on the audio.

Tim Keller says some good things.

I don't like when he's not clear about things, when he's asked questions about things that the Bible is black and white

about.

And then he gives a nuanced answer that's so nuanced you're not really sure where he is.

Some helpful things to think differently as far as communicating with people, but I don't want it to be so different

that it's actually communicating something that you don't want it to communicate.

Why did N .T. Wright speak at Redeemer?

I'd like to know.

Just my exhortation to the guys would be be careful with hero worship, whether it's the guy preaching here

or somewhere else.

When everybody thinks it's the greatest thing that you can do is eat lettuce and slice bread.

Be careful.

Let's just not be those kinds of guys.

Let's be discerning and read broad enough to realize that not everybody is

right in everything they say.

Engaging Keller is the book that you should read.

It's Evangelical Press.

It's called Engaging Keller.

Has anybody read it?

And it talks about Keller's view of chapter one of Genesis, how he thinks it's poetry, how he would define

hell as C .S. Lewis would.

Hell's gates are locked from the inside instead of God throwing people into hell in addition.

And it talks about his divine dance, describing the Trinity.

You ought to read that book if you have any questions about Tim Keller, written by a bunch of Presbyterians.

All right.

Questions for Pat.

Hard ones for Pat.

If you want to know the inside scoop about Pat, then I might be able to answer that.

Okay, does anybody have a question?

See, this is an intimidating thing, to walk up there and ask the question.

I see that hand.

We need some music.

You know what, should we put it in the back so guys aren't as afraid?

One more stanza of just as I am and we'll have it there.

So Pat, Mike, if you have, if I have friends or someone has friends that where they have those

gospel missteps, you think they're a believer, they're a faithful people, but in

their churches, the way they lead their churches, whether they're elders, pastors, what's a practical way

that I can encourage them towards the right view of the gospel, other

than just kind of talking about it in general?

I mean, like how can I lovingly correct them if need be, or just how do I approach that?

Awesome question.

I mean, one thing would be, be willing to talk to them,

don't blast them with an email.

It's amazing how a real conversation could be helpful.

We are called to admonish one another and to encourage one another.

The books, I like helpful articles, helpful books.

Pray for wisdom about tact, because again, I love to send a blasting email as much as anybody else does, because it's so

easy and it's not very helpful.

So here's an article, can we have lunch?

Would you talk about this?

The old fashioned way maybe is good.

Maybe if there's somebody they respect and you can find at a writing that they've written.

So choose who's gonna provide the critique.

You know what I'm saying?

We're talking about N .T. Wright and maybe I can find somebody that my friend likes to read and respects and they

offer a critique of N .T. Wright.

If they don't like John MacArthur, don't give them a John MacArthur article.

Give them a D .A. Carson article.

If they don't like Baptists, give them a Presbyterian or vice versa.

Just trying to be wise is what I try to do.

Send them, direct them to audio links.

There's so many good resources.

I'm thankful for progressive sanctification, aren't you guys?

I mean, I was just thinking as I was sitting here in the front row, I don't teach it this way anymore because the Lord has

shown me not to, but when I preached Mark here at the church in the building,

I was in Mark chapter one, the temptation, and I look back at my notes and when you're

tempted, what are you supposed to do?

Well, make sure you know the Old Testament because Jesus quotes Deuteronomy three times.

Know that God won't give you more than you can handle and I cross -referenced another thing and I thought, I have completely blown this.

I used to get mad at the sound guys.

Why don't you post the sermons that I preach?

I spend 30 hours working on a sermon and you don't post them and now they lost a bunch of these old sermons of mine and I think,

praise God, they lost the sermons.

It's a bunch of moralistic things.

Adam, tempted, failed.

Israel, tempted, failed.

I'm tempted, I fail.

Jesus, tempted, he didn't fail.

And so part of it is, Jonathan, sometimes we just wait because 1 Thessalonians 2 .13 is right.

The word of God performs its work in those who believe.

And so when they sit underneath good Bible preaching week in, by week out, people change.

If somebody asked me, how do I make a charismatic a cessationist?

Not that anybody ever asked me that question but the answer for me is I wouldn't just say, here's

charismatic chaos and here's a round trip ticket to see strange fire coming up in two weeks.

If they sit underneath the word long enough, verse by verse, Christ -centered, I think eventually they start

saying, wait a second, is Christ's word sufficient or is it deficient?

What is revelation?

Is it ongoing?

And the word just starts transforming them.

Then you're probably the guy.

And so you have to wisely figure out, how do I help these people?

Because it is a tragic mistake to say, I am the gospel.

Pat loves signs of churches.

I don't know why.

We were in Omaha a while ago and there was a church and we were driving by it and it said,

loving, what's it say?

Loving yourself.

Loving yourself.

And so we had to stop.

And so Pat got out of the car and I took a picture and Pat was doing the self hug

right by the thing.

Loving ourselves.

You don't need to waste a Sunday morning on that.

Aren't there better things to do on a Sunday morning?

These things don't need to be preached.

And so I like progressive sanctification and I think there's enough

access to internet articles like Pat was saying now that you can figure out some way to try to help them.

And it helps if you don't act like I did 20 years ago and maybe not that long ago, where I'm just the guy

who's right about all the stuff.

And I'm corrector and I correct everybody because I know yet I say to myself, but

I should be loving my wife I should be kinder.

I should be doing these other things versus I just have chapter and verse for everything.

Okay, good question.

Next.

Would you please give us the question first in an unknown tongue to most of us and then you can do it in English after that.

Can I speak in Afrikaans?

The question is more around, I know you did a no compromise talk about family worship.

And so as we are giving the gospel to our kids knowing that they are not believers,

what advice can you give us?

I mean, you've given us some good advice in the show Mike by saying, how do you sit at a dinner table and

how do you just do worship and teach them through the Bible.

But is there any other things in terms when you give them the gospel and they kind of come back to you and they say, I believe, but you know,

it's not a profession of true faith.

What kind of guidance can you give us as dads?

Okay, I'm gonna start and then I'll let you go.

Good question, Ferdie.

What I think we do is we always wanna encourage a positive response to the gospel.

We don't know what's happening on the inside of the kid's hearts.

I don't know how early kids can be saved.

I know how early they're in Adam, but I don't know how early they can get saved.

So I'm just optimistic.

And so when one of my kids says, daddy, I love Jesus.

What's our response?

No, you don't.

You're not old enough.

Time will tell, time and trials.

Puritans always say.

No, I say, you know what?

That's great.

Keep believing.

That's what I usually say.

That's wonderful, keep believing.

Luke's here.

It's not a Sunday sermon, so I'm not gonna lose a dollar.

I have to pay him a dollar if I talk about him on a Sunday.

Luke's here.

And we used to have family worship and get around the table.

And it was a rivalry between his older sister and himself.

And so what do we wanna talk about tonight?

Who do we wanna read from?

Genesis or Matthew?

And Haley said, Jesus.

Luke said, Moses.

Jesus, Moses.

Finally, Luke said, I hate Jesus.

Meaning I want to talk from the Torah.

And so you guys know the story if you've been around BBC.

It was a cold winter night in New England and we had a fire.

And so Luke was little enough.

I couldn't do this now.

If I could, I'd have big delts.

But I took Luke and I held him by the ankle.

And I walked him over to the fire.

Now, I want you to know the Greek language is very precise.

And so the Bible, you know, the Old Testament Hebrew word pictures, but God had Alexander the

Great come across because the most important specific, precise theological language was

Greek.

And so prepositions are important.

I did not place Luke over the fire.

I placed him by the fire.

And then I gave a little Jonathan Edwards talk about sinners in the hands of an angry God.

And fire is the place where people go who hate Jesus.

Luke is hanging upside down.

Again, he's only by the fire.

He's not over the fire.

You want to make sure I get that straight statue of limitations.

We had somebody come to the house the other day.

There's a big oar in our bathroom that's painted.

It's five foot tall and it's decorative.

And Kim has it in the bathroom.

It's painted.

And one of the little kids came out, that's a big rod.

And I thought, that dad's spanking those kids.

That's excellent.

So Luke starts saying, Daddy, I love Jesus.

Daddy, I love Jesus.

And so you want to always encourage faith.

Good job, buddy.

Way to go.

That's important.

And so we keep preaching.

The story is, I don't know if it's apocryphal or not, but Lloyd -Jones was preaching Sunday night and it was always

evangelistic at Westminster Chapel in London.

And a person came for the first time, didn't know anything about the gospel and they heard him preach and they said, I want to be

forgiven and I want to be saved.

And the story goes, whether it's true or not, he made a good point.

He said, what would you say?

He said, keep coming.

You need to learn more about the Savior.

You need to learn more about the object of your faith.

So we just keep teaching.

We just keep hoping.

We keep praying and we encourage any kind of profession of faith.

I had a friend in seminary, he said, kids don't worship God as unbelievers, they blaspheme God.

Kids don't pray, they blaspheme.

Don't let your kid pray.

Don't let them sing worship songs.

Don't let, I'm like, so that's not my philosophy.

We want to encourage the kid's faith.

Pat.

Only thing I would add is when we, I like Mike's balance.

Too many parents are sure their kids are Christians.

Later on, especially when there's no sign that they are.

Or the other extreme, they're sure that they aren't and they can't be because they sinned once.

I mean, that kind of thing.

Pray for wisdom.

Pray for balance.

The amazing thing is, there's no recipe.

Somebody once said to me, you will pray.

Meaning, it's not a recipe.

It's gonna force you to pray and say, God help me.

I'm desperate.

I'm blowing it.

I need insight.

So I think that is super helpful in remembering that.

Remember too, we're not going for decisionalism kind of stuff.

Trying to keep telling them the big story, the big drama, the big story of redemption.

And if you have a good children's Bible or your kids are older and you're more skilled at doing this, in

one way or another, that whole big drama, Genesis to Revelation is about God's drama of redemption.

And so you're reiterating, re -emphasizing.

Little kids, there's some great little kids' Bibles.

I buy them for adults sometimes.

Big picture story Bible.

I want adults to know how to read the Bible the right way.

Jesus storybook Bible.

I want adults to know how to read the Bible the right way.

And there are other ones too.

It's not just a book of morals.

I think my favorite family worship times, certainly singing songs, talking to them about who the Lord Jesus is and he

touches the leper.

But they're not found in, the worship times are not found at home or on the dinner table, but they're found in the funeral

home.

I don't know how many parents, I don't know why.

It's a different generation maybe or something.

We have to get babysitters so we can go to the calling hours because there'll be an open casket.

Really?

Just be your friend for a minute.

What are you thinking when you don't bring your kids to go see a dead body?

Of course it's not good to see.

It's not fun to see in terms of good feelings.

But when I take my kids to the funeral home, I say, listen, when somebody dies and we don't know what to say to

the family, you just go to them and say, I'm sorry.

I love you.

Give them a hug.

It's all you have to do.

And you have to go look at the dead body.

This is an Avendraw thing.

You probably do it too.

You have to go look at the dead body.

And I want you to just remember a few quick facts.

One, you're gonna be in that casket one day.

Two, the real person's soul isn't in that casket anymore.

And it's either in hell waiting for the lake of fire or in the presence of God.

And three, only one person can walk up to that dead body that's cold and hard and say, get

up.

Lazarus, arise.

Jesus raises people from the dead.

And so those kinds of lessons, kids never forget them.

And so where are the parents to take their kids to the worship times like funerals and weddings?

When mom died, we were sitting there around the casket.

And last thing before we close the casket, all the little grandkids come around, her grandkids, our

kids, and we just sat there and we sang, Jesus loved Grandma Carla.

And all the kids were just hanging around.

I said, you can touch her if you want.

They'll never forget it.

Okay.

This is kind of like a cry moment where Mike and Pat can cry.

I feel so broken and wounded.

I don't know how to act.

Okay, next question.

Bob, make this good, you know, that you're the conference coordinator and stuff.

Can I do word association?

Big hand for Robert, his wife, getting everything planned.

Now, you know, you get the inside stuff.

So when Carl Truman was here, now you email Carl and he knows who you are and he hasn't spam blocked you and stuff.

But stop emailing my brother, okay?

He just forwards them to me.

Will do.

Can I do word association?

Sure.

Okay, first one.

Family integrated church.

Texas.

Texas.

That's where it comes from, right?

Isn't that where the guy is?

I think he pastors a church in Texas.

I think there's probably a lot of good motives, but my first reaction when I think of family integrated,

it's theologically immature.

That's what I think.

So what is a parent's responsibility with their children, integrating them into worship, into church?

Well, I will give you a couple of simple things.

In our family, you go to the worship service because on Sunday,

God calls people to come and worship the son.

And so you worship him by giving, by singing, by preaching, if you're the pastor or elders.

And when you have a hymnal in your hand, you stand and you sing.

I'm absolutely appalled to think, I sit in the front row so I don't have to pick on people all the time, but I sit in the front

row, but I hear about it.

Some people don't have their kids sing.

Abendross sing, why?

Because dad said sing.

If you don't want to sing with enthusiasm, I just have two words for you.

What?

Fake it, yeah, you sing.

And so you think, oh no, we don't sing.

Because when I grew up, dad didn't sing, I didn't sing.

But if the dad sings, you watch the kids sing.

Well, I can't sing, I don't have a good voice.

I could care less.

I mean, just think about that.

No wonder we're so impotent as men in terms of leading our families, where we go, oh, we don't sing, and we

don't do this, and we don't do that.

I think if you say to yourself on Saturday night, let's get everything ready for tomorrow.

It's worship, everything's taken care of, all your clothes are out, it's ready to go.

It's gonna be Matthew 8, let's read that, let's pray for the pastor.

You get up in the morning and you're excited.

We get to go worship today versus, ah.

That's why when my kids were little and I did family worship, they were too little to understand justification.

So I would say, daddy loves the Bible.

Because then the kids are like, dad loves the Bible.

And you know what?

You show me a kid and they act a certain way, I look to the dad and I go, the kid figured out from the dad

how to work.

And so how it works, if the dad's singing and he's enthusiastic and he's involved in the church and he's plugged in,

I'm not saying the kid will do it automatically or from the heart if he's not regenerate, but that's the recipe for,

it's the man.

That's why I look around, I go, look at you guys.

You'd like to desire out of gratitude to honor the Lord with your lives and to lead your

wives.

And so I like that.

I like it that you teach your kids about Lady Jane Grey and that you wanna have Psalm 51 memorized and La Rita

doing that.

And so what we do though, is sometimes it turns into legalism.

I missed a Wednesday night and then therefore it's all messed up.

Here's what I want for you, Bob.

I want when you're dying and all your kids are around your casket, well, it won't be a casket yet, on the gurney,

I want the kids to go, you know what?

We never really, pretty much every day, dad taught us the Bible.

He said, it had something good to say about Jesus.

Even though you missed three days a week, in their mind, they said, yep, they're committed.

He's committed to serve the Lord Jesus and that was his life.

And so I think it goes right back to the father.

Why does it say fathers?

It doesn't say that in the message or it doesn't say that in the...

Right, so I guess with that, what role does Sunday, because a family integrated church, they'll say, no Sunday school, no youth

group.

Everybody learns to get the...

So what role does a Sunday school play in the life of a church?

One thing I would wanna say is family integrated, again, a lot of times, overreaction.

Okay, so we have all this goofballism, pop evangelical

silliness in the name of youth ministry.

There's tons of it.

So we'll just overreact and throw away giftedness.

How about that?

There are gifted individuals in the church.

I need my kids to be with them because I don't have every spiritual gift.

So I need other ministries other than just my ministry as a dad and as a preacher.

And so I want them involved with other gifted individuals.

Now, maybe at its best, family integrated would find ways to do that.

But at its worst, it doesn't.

And so I want other people teaching my kids.

I wanna teach them, but I want other people to teach them too.

So I think that that's a little bit of pushback that I would offer.

Bob, here's what I'm looking for.

I'm looking for things that don't prevent new Christians or immature Christians

from belonging and figuring it out.

So the church is big on family integrated and you walk in here and you're going, I don't understand this.

My kid's cranky.

I need to put him in a sunny nursery and I just can't figure it out.

I don't want that to be the shingle.

I don't want the shingle to be, we know the 1689 around here and that's it, where you go, well, there's a reason why reformed Baptist churches are

50 people or less on average or whatever.

I don't want them to have to figure something out.

The shingle should be the expository preaching of a Christ -centered Bible.

And then they'll figure these other things out.

I'm all for dads being around, but I'm not all for, well, we don't have a

nursery today because we believe the family's together.

Yeah, but that single mom just came in with five kids and they're all disobedient and I've got to have the oxygen

mask drop for the mom first and the four kids will follow later.

We'll go teach them the Bible in the back and we've actually taught the people to preach Christ Jesus in the back so they're not getting

moralism back there.

They're getting the gospel there with a few Cheetos thrown in and short of the peanut butter on the face with the cheese balls.

That was fun though, wasn't it?

But if the junior high leader, if there's something for junior high and I don't mean keeping them out of the service.

If there's a junior high Sunday school class, if Mike has an aneurysm and drops over dead,

no doubt in this church, the junior high leader could do the same lesson from the pulpit and there wouldn't be a major problem in the

church.

Be okay, right?

I mean, that's the difference.

We're gonna train our teachers and leaders to do a good job and be competent and so they're gonna be doing

a good job and being competent and then that answers a big question for me about the whole family worship kind of

phenomenon.

Overreaction.

If we're training other men, 2 Timothy 2, verse two, so let's say the youth ministry, Brian Bartlett and

Tim Boslin are leading the youth ministry.

Other elders have poured their lives into them as well, but so have I and so we train them to do ministry and then our

kids go and then Luke hears me say things all the time, but then Josh

McDonald or one of these guys says it and I think I've said it 500 times, but it clicked when they said it.

Why wouldn't I wanna train other men and say there's a reason why we have a body full of all kinds of spiritual gifts?

All right, I'll give one more.

I have a whole list.

I don't want a monopolist.

You give us all of them and we'll pick the juiciest ones.

All right.

I got three more.

Thoughts on the gospel coalition?

I've been.

You've been?

Twice.

We talked at dinner about -.

I've been prohibited twice.

About the pull of being truly reformed and so you know, Christian reconstructionism, all that good stuff and then

less than five point Calvinists.

I'll answer the last one first.

The funny story is when R .C. Sproul one time at a Ligonier conference, I wasn't there, I heard the audio

and R .C. and his way that he does things, you know, and his voice, I can't imitate, but I

wanna welcome all of you four point Calvinists to the conference and all the rest of

you Armenians.

I thought you were gonna say they're Christmas Calvinists.

No L.

No L.

Christmas, that's funny.

R .C. Sproul said it, I didn't.

Funny.

We're all learning, we're all works in progress.

I'm not gonna fuss about it.

If you believe in the doctrine of total depravity, you're sunk.

You're a five pointer in no time.

So start with total depravity.

If people can swallow that hard pill, the rest of them fall in line and that's just how it's gonna be.

What's interesting is now you're starting, I'm starting to have more and more people who are five point Calvinists and I'm thinking, seriously?

I mean, that takes no convincing.

I remember when it was really hard to convince somebody.

Anyway, I'm concerned.

I don't really try to convince people too much.

I'll talk about it a little bit tomorrow, but I think you're either a universalist or you're, you know,

you're a Calvinist, you're a five pointer.

I think if you type in Owen's conundrum and just read, is that what it's called?

Owen's conundrum?

I think so.

And just, it's in the death of death and the death of Christ.

I think if you type that in, here's Owen's conundrum, I think you'll be spurred on.

S .S. Lewis Johnson would say consistent Calvinists.

But here's what I don't want.

I don't wanna have the five pointers think that the four pointers are not very godly.

They're not Calvinistic at all.

They're behind in soteriology.

They don't understand what world is, pos, pon, ponta and all this stuff.

I think if you're a five point Calvinist, I think that's right by the way.

The father chose some, not all.

Jesus died for the same some, not all.

The spirit only regenerates some, not all.

If that's true, third class conditional, I only believe that because it's the grace of God.

So I'm better than you because you're a four point stupid person and I'm a five point smart person.

What do I have that I have not received?

So I think people eventually get there.

Just like when we're talking with Jonathan.

When Bob came.

Bob, can I tell the story?

Bob Andrzejczyk, where are you?

Yeah.

Well, Bob came here.

He was, how would you describe yourself so I don't put words in your mouth?

21 years Pentecostal.

And did I ever pull you to the side and say stop believing some of that nonsense?

But I wanted to.

No.

And so we love people.

And we say, you know what?

People come from seeker sensitive churches.

They come from King James only churches.

They come from AOG churches.

And what they do is they go, well, the singing maybe I don't like.

It's not enough rock stuff.

It's not striper.

It's not this, it's not that.

But I get fed the word of God from a God centered perspective.

And that's how people change.

And then they get in their car and they rock out on the way home and they listen to Jovan McKenzie.

What do I care?

Right?

That's right.

Okay.

Is it?

Okay, good.

See progressive sanctification.

Word associated, Christian rap.

Christian rap?

Well, in my day, Christian was a noun, not an adjective.

Okay.

Okay, Tom, if anybody needs to go, they can.

It's about 9 .17.

We're scheduled to wrap up at 9 .30.

So we'll just keep talking.

Sort of follow up on the young people.

We in this church practice fencing the table from a communion standpoint.

What do you mean by that?

To protect people from taking communion when they shouldn't.

First Corinthians 11, we wanna make sure that people aren't killed, if you will, or put to sleep, well, for taking

it unworthily.

So I've got two teenagers.

We're going back and forth with the gospel, trying to understand and so on.

And I guess I'd look for your counsel on when would you let the table be

had by your children as they become believers?

Good question, Tom.

Easy for me to answer, Tom, because I'm not from here.

So I have nothing at stake.

But one thing I've said to my kids when they've asked me, Dad, can I do that?

When can I do that?

I've kind of, I want them to know it and understand what it means.

But in the heat of the moment, I usually say, what I'd like you to do is get online and listen to the sermon

on that passage and what it means.

And then once you listen to that, come back and talk to me.

And I'm not gonna try to stump you, but let's have a good conversation about what it is, what it isn't, try to be real friendly and nice

about it.

And usually with my children, at least, they haven't come back.

I mean, it's just been a Sunday kind of whim.

They're here, they see.

And so I've tried to give them kind of an assignment that's gonna cost something.

They're gonna have to put some effort forth so it's not just a Sunday, everybody else is doing it.

I wanna take that approach.

I wanna be careful about putting an age on it because the Bible doesn't.

There's something in me that wants to put an age on it.

I wanna put an age on baptism too, but the Bible doesn't.

So I've really been hesitant to do that.

The church where I am has been really hesitant to do that.

So in baptism, we have a class.

We ask parents not to coach the kids.

Come to the class.

It's not difficult.

Basic questions, basic interaction.

But by having the class to prepare them, the age went way up.

So I guess general counsel is gonna be, don't try to get them to do it because you can get them to do just about anything.

And when they're coming to you, maybe reasonably prayerfully give them some responsibilities to prepare.

That's just my general answer.

Hope it's helpful.

What we do around here, Tom, and I don't police every family

because some families think of Passover and all the family would eat of the Passover lamb.

So they would eat together even though the kids weren't saved in Exodus 12.

I don't believe that view.

I believe that you have to believe.

Of course, it's a grace gift to believe.

And then you're to be baptized.

Then you do other things as a Christian.

So it's believe and be baptized.

So much so in the New Testament that you would almost be tempted to be a baptismal regeneration person if you didn't know

better.

So the response to the gospel is belief, then baptism, and then everything else.

And so while we haven't made it a mandate at the church, you've probably heard me say it over the years, this is for

believers who have been baptized.

And so for our children, if you haven't been baptized, you're not to take it.

So it's not a church policy, although it's my pastoral belief, if as at least

baptistically, if you're not a baptized believer, you shouldn't be doing anything

except saying to yourself, I'm a person who is sinning because I'm a believer and I haven't been baptized.

There's something more important for me to do than take communion, serve, give worship or anything else.

I should be baptized.

So our family, if you're baptized, you may take it.

If you're not baptized, you may not take it.

So then that helps also for the kids saying, well, I wanna do it because everybody else does.

You have to believe and then be baptized.

Then that leads into, this is in the last 100 years, we baptize a lot of kids and no other church era

we've ever done that.

Mark Devers done a lot of good study.

When do you baptize five -year -old kids in church history?

They haven't been doing that for a very long time.

That's a very recent thing.

And so it's difficult for me as a pastor because we have people here at the church, they move from another church, their 10 -year -old has

been baptized.

Now their five -year -old is now 10 because they've been here five years.

10 -year -old Jimmy got baptized, but now 10 -year -old, you know, I'm trying to think of names that aren't with,

you know.

Matilda.

Matilda, yeah.

Lorraine Bettner, you know, he's a man.

So he wants to get baptized now.

Well, you have to be a believer and you have to be baptized and I'm trying to push this off

to be later in the life of the young person.

Steve.

So Tom, in summary, if your kids aren't baptized, I personally would advise you not to let them take

communion.

I know, I know Pat has had an influence on a lot of young men for gospel

ministry.

I just wanted to testify to that.

I know this by secondhand experience, but I wonder if you would address maybe

either young men here or maybe older guys who feel like they're not maybe pulling their

weight at home or they study the Bible, but they feel inadequate to teach.

And maybe what are some things that you would encourage these men to study on top of the Bible

to kind of help them understand things.

And be able to teach in a better way?

Okay, keep reading your Bible.

And if you're not reading your Bible, start reading your Bible.

Holistically big picture.

What's a big picture of the Bible about?

I'm all for in -depth, exegetical, original languages, really dig

in, because we take it all seriously.

But you can really lose sight of the forest because of the trees, not to mention

the leaves.

And so remember Ephesians was a letter, okay?

To be read in one sitting.

Read your Bible more big picture.

It will help you, I think.

I would emphasize that.

I would emphasize the priority you have in listening to the word of God being proclaimed in that sort of way.

Listen to Bible teachers that can help you with that to get the big picture.

Trying to do that at this church.

Someone like Sinclair Ferguson really does a good job, big picture.

He's really smart, really sophisticated.

Sounds cool with a cool accent, but he really is going big picture for you.

I would emphasize that.

And then just between us girls, so to speak, read some of those good children's

Bibles.

Even if you don't have any children, you can order anonymously on Amazon.

It will help you to be a better teacher.

It'll help you to understand your Bible better because it'll teach you what's called biblical theology.

So big picture story Bible, probably not that one, but you could use that one.

Jesus storybook Bible, that one.

I know there's some other ones, even the ones that say people who bought this buy these on Amazon.

I'm not kidding.

I buy those for adults sometimes and say this would really be good for your children.

And oh, by the way, psst, you need to read this.

That's super helpful.

In my home, what we had to do early on, my wife is a trained teacher, elementary school teacher.

She's really good with kids and I've never had kids before I had kids.

How about that?

You know, I - I changed your diaper once though.

It's a new thing.

I bet that was something.

It's a new thing.

So what do I do?

I felt so insecure and so uptight about the whole thing.

I didn't have nieces and nephews around.

My wife would have to go to the other room and dismiss herself so I could read to the little tiny kids that couldn't know any

better anyway, just so I could get used to it.

I'm thankful that my wife was okay with that.

I got used to it.

Those things would help.

Then you can start reading some systematic theology and those kinds of things.

It'll help you to kind of stay on track, whether you like, you know, Lewis Berkoff or Wayne

Grudem or Mike Horton or somebody else.

But I - that's some of my basic advice to you.

I think it'd be helpful.

It served me well.

Does that work, Steve?

Yeah.

The other thing -.

Basics, basics, basics, basics.

I think this is - this might -.

I hope this doesn't undo everything you've talked about tonight.

But if you think about holistic living, Pat, I think the Lord has granted

you just an excitement and a joy about life.

And so when you're dealing with young people, I think you should be enthusiastic.

I think you should have a good time.

I think you shouldn't be boring.

I think it should be - everything doesn't have to be the life of the party.

But Elizabeth Elliot's husband, Jim, would talk often about people seeing his

life, saying, you know what?

His God is good to him.

He's got a very good God who grants him all kinds of things.

And you look at Ecclesiastes chapter three, there's a season for everything.

God's sovereign over every issue.

And even though he's put eternity in your heart, what are you supposed to do?

Enjoy your life, do good with an eye toward fearing God.

And so the men who want to teach their kids, I think if you're like I was too often, it's

this taskmaster thing.

But for you with like young kids and Jonathan's friends, and it's the wakeboard and it's this, that, and the other.

I don't mean it's wakeboard evangelism, although that's probably pretty good.

But just an exciting life where it's not always taught, sit down kids at the dinner table and I'm

gonna teach you.

Although I like that and I have many fond memories.

When we get to Lot's wife, I make all the kids put their hand out.

I pour the salt in their hand.

They have to do Lot's wife salt lick and off we go.

I remember those clear as day.

But you teach the kids about the gospel and about the word doing other life things.

It just comes up.

You see the ant and you talk about the ant.

You see, I want Luke to say, I've seen dad sin behind the scenes and be in front of the

scenes.

But you know what?

He just has been loved by the Lord and he loves the Lord and his life is attractive to me

because he's got all kinds of other buddies at school and at the sea cadets and other places and their

life is going like this.

Follow me and it leads to the dead end road of hell.

And so teach your kids.

If you're stern in your teaching and you're authoritative and you're gospel centered, I think you should be the happiest guy I know.

It should be thrilling.

The life of the Christian is a thrilling thing.

People don't get saved by being thrilling.

But I'll tell you, if I preach a dull sermon, you'll still like what I say, but you'll say, you

know what?

Something doesn't match.

No one can convince me that the style of my delivery is unimportant when I preach.

You'll say content first, then homiletics.

Agreed.

But convince me that my presentation, it doesn't matter.

Nobody's been able to convince me.

And I think the presentation of a godly life, not a presentation of the gospel, because I hate it when people say I live the gospel.

But wouldn't we be a good mime couple?

Think of that couple, the brothers miming the gospel together.

The anti -gospel.

Yeah, so just be enthusiastic.

Have some fun with your kids.

And you go, you know what?

I've been a bump on the log for too many years.

Well, today's a good day to say, you know what?

I'm gonna just say to my kids, every time it's the Bible, it's a drag and all these other things versus

freedom.

The Damocles sword is no longer over our heads.

We don't have to go to hell.

And we get to enjoy Christ.

Can you imagine Revelation chapter 22?

And we shall see his what?

Face.

I can't get over that.

We shall see his face.

You got a loved one in heaven that you can't wait to see their face.

How about the face of Jesus?

Instead of being on your face, like Luke chapter five with Simon Peter, oh Lord, depart from me, I'm a

sinful man.

Isaiah, the most righteous man on the earth, he sees God, he sees Jesus on the throne and he says,

woe is me, send me to hell, damn me.

And for us, because we have Christ's righteousness, we don't have to pay for our sins.

We get heaven and it's not clouds, it's not harps, it's not my mom, although I'm gonna be glad she's there.

It's not my wife, it's not my kids and we shall see his face.

That's what we get.

I wonder if your kids see the twinkle in your eye when you're thinking about that or they just see the dad

taskmaster.

Because I'll tell you what will repulse a kid is legalistic dads,

no grace.

They get grace but they only demand legalism and I know because I'm an expert at it because it's built in

right here.

Nobody has to teach me.

Think about how you talk to your kids.

Law or gospel, indicatives or imperatives.

Pick up, don't do this, I told you that.

Luke can probably hear me say that right now.

Stop it, faster, I told you to do that other way.

That's all imperatives.

It's all law stuff instead of dad loves you, dad's provided for you, I can't believe that day

that you were born that God would give you to me nothing better than that day and

the gift of God of you to me and you just rehearse those things.

That's gospel -centered sanctification.

Okay, I'm done.

And then when you're, if you're the guy who's always up, you better be honest with your kids or you're not always up.

What happens when you're not up and things stink and are awful and you gotta talk to your kids about it in that

sense?

When some, I have to tell you, not too long ago, I was in a bike racing kind of thing and somebody called me things I've

never been called before in my life.

Expletive, expletive, expletive, like I've never been called and I wanted to kill the guy.

I wanted to kill that guy.

I hated him so much it's not even funny.

Here's the thing, I'm not proud about that but I wanted to tell my kids the story.

I wanted to tell my kids the story and to let them know I didn't say it so I'm thankful.

Praise be to God.

But I wanted them to know I thought it and I had to say, Lord, thank you so much that I have a perfect substitute

because based upon what I just did, I deserve to go to hell.

So I'm just playing the other side of it a little bit.

You gotta be honest with them that life isn't all happy and wonderful and you're doing all the right thing.

Isn't dad great?

It's that side of it too.

I want my kids to know that I'm broken, sinful, unworthy and that's why I lose my

cool sometimes.

There's the other side, it's balance.

I want my kids to understand life is broken.

Romans chapter eight, the whole creation is groaning.

The world's a messed up place and I can explain why.

I'm living proof that it's broken but I can explain why and redemption is in Christ.

Okay, now I'm done.

Well, isn't it so good with our wives?

Because of the gospel, how do you talk to your wife?

She says, honey, you were rude or you didn't follow up or you said this or you weren't kind or you didn't do this, that or

the other.

And do you know what I wanna do when I hear that?

No, I wasn't.

No, you don't understand and I'm busy.

I have a lot of pressure and I think you misunderstood me.

You know what's so nice because of the gospel?

Honey, you're right.

I'm a total sinner.

I wanna ask the Lord for forgiveness and I'm gonna ask your forgiveness and I don't wanna do it again.

May we continue in sin that grace might abound.

I don't wanna do it again but I'm glad I have a Savior.

How good is that?

That is excellent.

I don't mean it's good because I said it.

I mean, it's good because we have the gospel.

All right, tomorrow.

He's doing one more.

Oh, Simon, okay.

Yeah, you know what?

I like to end on a good note.

If it's no good, we're gonna cut it off.

We're gonna excise it.

It's gonna be like my Mark chapter one sermon.

It's just like in the bowels of the internet somewhere.

I was waiting for a break but you guys kept talking.

Okay, all right.

It was good, all good.

Going back, misstep number, I think it was number two about preaching the gospel versus living the gospel.

Just thinking about myself and my wife, we have a lot of unbelieving family and how to

apply that to our unbelieving family that we maintain relationships with.

So obviously, we preach the gospel to all of them.

Obviously, not well -received because they're still unbelievers.

So now, we'd like nothing more to just keep preaching the gospel to them but our fear is that it

would drive that wedge between us and it would hurt the relationship that we have and

possibly hurt future opportunities to have an influence in their life and to preach the gospel to them.

So, any advice you have?

Sure.

I'd appreciate it.

I'm gonna say the first thing would be to pray for wisdom, right?

Because I don't know, I don't know the situation and you have the spirit of God who has better answers than

I have.

So pray for wisdom.

Don't stop proclaiming Christ to them but do so thoughtfully.

God, help us to know, is this the time to do it?

They've heard.

Do we have to jam it down their throat every Christmas and Easter?

So, don't stop but be thoughtful, tactful, wise.

None of those things are compromising.

Those are just good.

The other side of it is, in a certain way, if you can show them that in so many ways, Simon, you're

just like them.

You're different, you have different priorities, you might have different convictions but in so many ways,

you're just like them.

So you can relate to them.

So too many times, we wanna show everybody that we're not like them at all.

Well, you're a sinner just like them with imputed righteousness credited to you from the

outside.

Your righteousness is not on the inside.

It's on the outside credited.

So I can, I think I'm getting better at relating to my unbelieving father -in -law,

my unbelieving mother -in -law.

We're in the same boat.

I just, you know, I'm a beggar showing other beggars where to find food but I'm not somebody, I'm not a

king telling beggars where, you know, to get more wisdom like me.

I think that goes a long way and it took me a long time to learn that.

The self -righteousness thing and even if you're not being self -righteous, you don't mean to be, it's gonna

quickly be read that way.

So share, I don't mean to sound like this is not psychobabble but you can share your struggles

with them and things you're struggling with and things that are difficult.

You don't have to hide those things but you keep pointing to your hope that is not inside

you.

Your hope is outside of you.

Alien righteousness, a righteousness not of your own.

And that doesn't guarantee they're gonna be converted because otherwise they're gonna find fault in you,

you know, but you're not preaching yourself.

I hope it helps.

I think it's the right approach and if your wife can get that and your kids can get that, you're no better than they are.

Everything you could do to communicate to them, you're no better.

The swearing at biking story, I was sure to tell my in -laws about that and make

sure they understood that I was as bad at least as that guy who

swore at me.

Because you could have family members who have better marriage, seemingly in terms of communication and fun

and vacations and unbelievers can have wonderful lives on the earth and they could

have all kinds of at least earthly joy and so then what do you do?

What if your marriage isn't as good as an unbelievers but eventually family members talk and what I would do, Simon, is

I would say, when you're talking, you know, I'd like to give you my advice except

I just learned a long time ago that my advice doesn't really work and it doesn't really count that much and

so everything for me revolves around the word and it revolves around the truth of the Bible and so I'd

love to share those things with you from the Bible but the vibes we've received, you know, in the past you didn't wanna

hear anything about the Bible so I pray for you often, I wanna be around you and when you're in a crisis, I

wanna be there but everything I'm gonna end up saying, whether you know it or not, is gonna come from the foundation of,

this is what the Bible says and so there probably will be times where they're going to want to talk to

you when things are bad.

I have family members and friends and neighbors and they never wanna talk about anything until somebody's

on, you know, in a bad straight and then they think, you know what?

Yeah, but what does the Bible really say?

I'd like to know and so I think every guy here would have family members and friends who aren't saved

and what do we do?

For me, after we've already preached the gospel and not do the sissy evangelism method, that was funny, wasn't it?

I like that, no more sissy evangelism and then I say, Lord, give me opportunities.

I heard a guy once say, I think it was Roscoe at Masters, Lord, give me as many opportunities as I

can to have that time to talk about you.

Give me the boldness to do it.

I don't need to be led, give me an opportunity, you seize it and then go.

More subjective.

Okay, guys, let's stand up and let's just sing the doxology.

Restroom's down there, there's a bookstore, we'll see you tomorrow.

Bob, what time do we start?

9 a .m.?

9 a .m.

John chapter one tomorrow, Pat, then Revelation chapter five, then Revelation seven.

Is that right?

Okay.