Discipleship with Dr. Philip Attebery

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February 8, 2020

Rapp Report 109 Dr. Philip Attebery is the Dean at Baptist Missionary Association Theological Seminary. He has written on discipleship and served in youth ministry. Andrew and Philip talk about why discipleship matters and why it is important. Discipleship is a missing element of the American church. They discuss the difference between the Church Growth...

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01:05: Wrap Report with Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications.
01:12: This is the Ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian Podcast Community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.
01:25: Well, welcome back to another Wrap Report. I am your host, Andrew Rapoport, and though we've concluded our interviews that we did at G3, we're still kind of doing some interviews, well, sort of from G3, but not actually on location.
01:42: We're going to be joined today with Dr. Philip Atbury. He is the dean at Baptist Missionary Association Theological Seminary.
01:52: They were in a booth right behind us, and so we got to meet, and we wanted to give an extended time.
01:59: Instead of a shorter interview with him, I wanted to bring him on for a full interview. So we've carried that over to recording after G3.
02:07: Therefore, the quality sounds much better. You don't hear anyone talking in the background, which, you know, you get the noise, but some people like that with the
02:15: G3 event center feeling. Welcome, Dr.
02:21: Atbury, to the Wrap Report. Well, thank you. Good to be with you. Before you showed up to the booth, you had some folks setting up your booth there, and they were right behind us, and we were separated by just that black cloth.
02:39: Of course, me being the practical joker I am, I was just sticking my head through the cloth and watching them as they were unpacking all the boxes, and all of a sudden,
02:45: I just see a head poking through, which kind of scared them. Then I kept joking that I was going to take all the materials you guys had that you were putting out and just slip them back through the curtain.
02:57: Then I think you showed up and redesigned the whole thing so that there was just this big wall, and I couldn't poke my head through anymore at all.
03:03: Obviously, you caught on to my behavior, I think. Divine providence helped me to do that.
03:12: So, one of the things that I wanted to talk with you about, I want to talk about the seminary, but we'll do that afterwards.
03:19: I know that's obviously a major part of what you do, but when I was doing the research on you and looking at, realizing you have a similar heart that I do with the area of discipleship, which anybody who loves this talking discipleship instantly,
03:36: I get a kindred spirit with. I can understand. You and I spoke just to get to know one another even better before recording last week, actually.
03:49: The conversation was, I mean, I didn't want to hang up, but obviously, we are limited in time in our days.
03:56: So, what I would like to do is first give you a chance to introduce yourself, give your background to folks, because for some of my audience, they may not know who you are, and it would be good for them to get to know you a little bit before we start talking discipleship.
04:12: Well, I appreciate the opportunity to be on The Wrap Report, and as far as my background, I'm not sure what your audience would be interested in, but I did attend the seminary where I'm now the dean a little more than 30 years ago.
04:25: I actually came down, worked on a Master of Divinity, and then I went on, got a couple of other degrees beyond that, and I've been serving here for 20 years now as the dean, but I'm really excited to know
04:40: I have a great wife and a couple of children. They're grown now, but great, great kids.
04:46: The Lord has really blessed us with the family, and did some campus ministry at a local community college as well in between my seminary graduation and deanship, and so that's where most of my ministry has been, and trying to serve in local churches as well, where I've been a member doing some interim pastorates and that type of thing.
05:08: So your dissertation that you did was on the assimilation experience for new converts, which was intriguing to me, because this is something where, and we were talking about this when you and I were on the phone, the fact that we end up seeing a lot of the movement.
05:33: I'm trying to think of the best words to communicate this, but we would refer to it as the church growth movement, this mass marketing, trying to just get people in pews rather than getting them trained, and that assimilation process is a major part of how you're going to approach discipleship.
05:56: So what are the things that you've noticed as far as the way churches try to assimilate people into their church?
06:06: In the research that I did, I interviewed adult new converts who had recently been saved and baptized, or at least recently baptized in their churches.
06:15: That was within the last one to three years, and just asked them about their experiences of assimilation.
06:23: Their pastors had identified them as assimilated into the church, and I think what
06:31: I found by interviewing those folks was churches as a whole, and even pastors,
06:37: I interviewed leaders as well in churches, and by far they agreed there's not an intentional process for discipling people or for seeing spiritual maturity occur.
06:52: I know one young lady that I visited with, I asked her what she thought her pastor wanted her to be in 10 years, as far as her character and so forth and spiritual growth, and she had a thing or two in mind, and I asked her how is that going to happen?
07:13: Can you see your church directing you toward that? And she said, oh, no,
07:20: I'm pretty certain that I'm going to have to figure that out on my own. Yeah, and it was quite, you know, yeah, it was an ouch moment, but I had pastors as well tell me as we interviewed,
07:33: I would ask them how are you going to help your people to grow, say over the next 10 years, and two or three of them would say, well, you know, just talking here makes me realize
07:43: I don't know what we're going to do with that, and yet those new converts did have aspirations for spiritual growth.
07:53: They wanted to grow. I know one lady about 30 years old told me, she said,
07:59: I don't know exactly what that's going to look like, you know, in 10 years, but she said right now, it's like someone is holding my hand and leading me along, and she said,
08:11: I just know that in 10 years, I need to be the one holding someone else's hand and leading them along, but again, she just couldn't, you know, see exactly how the church was helping her do that, and her pastor was one of the ones who said, you know, we're not doing that intentionally.
08:29: They did see young, the new converts did see people in their churches, including their leaders, as intentionally befriending them and, you know, encouraging them, but as far as a spiritual growth plan, they didn't know, you know, what was going to happen with that.
08:50: Well, let's talk about why that's important. I mean, we could obviously get into Matthew 28, 19, and 20, the
08:57: Great Commission, but, because that's clearly a command by Christ that we should be doing, and for folks that may not realize, the
09:06: Great Commission is not to evangelize, it's not to go. When we look at the
09:11: Greek there, go is more, it is not the main verb, it is a supporting verb, therefore it's an adverb, it'd be saying going.
09:21: The main verb is to make, and the subject is disciples, so that's the Great Commission. How do we make disciples?
09:27: As we go about our day. So, if someone doesn't know Christ, the first step in teaching them all things
09:33: Christ taught you is to talk to them about Christ, and then after they get saved, you teach them everything that you've learned from Christ.
09:42: But, in the experience that you're talking about, why do you feel discipleship is an important element for the church, other than it's commanded, because that's a clear one.
09:54: Right, well, you're right, clearly the command is there, but when you see aspirations that, you know, say the
10:00: Apostle Paul has when he's speaking to Colossians, when he's speaking to Timothy, and he speaks about, for example,
10:07: Colossians 1, he says, this is why we are preaching, and warning, or admonishing, and why we're teaching, and he mentions every man several times in that passage, so that through wisdom, we may present every man mature in Christ.
10:26: In Colossians 1, I think it's verse 21 or 22, it talks about a presentation that only
10:34: Christ can make. That's people who are holy and blameless. And it uses the word that Christ would present us holy and blameless.
10:42: But down in verse 28, Paul mentions a presentation that we make. We're not ever going to present people who are holy and blameless.
10:49: We can't do that. We cannot make people holy. But we can present people who are mature.
10:56: And that's what Christ seems to be warning. Paul certainly said that, that through the preaching, and warning, and teaching, that we would present people who are mature in Christ.
11:06: And then when he told Timothy at the end of chapter 3 and 2 Timothy, that the
11:12: Bible, all Scripture is inspired by God, and profitable for different things, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped, and ready for every good work.
11:24: So there's something that we need to do, and that is to mature ourselves. And when you look at sanctification, of course, in the
11:31: Scriptures, we clearly need to be growing in sanctification. And I think from just a practical standpoint,
11:37: I know I agree with you very much on just the church growth movement. That was a big thing back when
11:44: I was in seminary. We were talking about that, being seeker -sensitive. But the Bible says no one is seeking
11:50: God. And so it just makes me a little nervous to think about being too seeker -sensitive when the
11:56: Bible says nobody is seeking after God. And I think that the average church has many more on the membership role than actually come to services and participate in the ministry.
12:11: Well, that should bother us. Again, from a practical standpoint, if we are not discipling, if somebody joined the typical church, he or she has made a profession of faith in some kind, the church believed it enough to baptize those people and to see them join the typical church.
12:33: That's typical church. But then if those folks 10, 20 years later are not active, something's not right.
12:44: And so I feel like it's a lack of disciple -making, very much so.
12:50: We've not equipped people mostly to do spiritual disciplines, to study the
12:56: Bibles for themselves, to pray really for themselves, to share the gospel, to lead others, how to do those same things.
13:05: There's a real gap there. That's creating a real problem, I think. And overall, you see that with churches in the communities, our nation.
13:15: We lack spiritually mature people, and so they don't vote well.
13:23: They don't serve their communities well and influence people to be committed to Christ and Christlike behavior, and so things just kind of run wild.
13:35: Yeah, I mean, I think about my background. I don't know if we talked much about my background, but I came out of a
13:40: Jewish background, knew nothing of Christianity. In fact, three hours before I had the conversation, or three hours before I was converted to Christ, my response was that Jesus Christ is
13:55: Hitler's God. I knew nothing of Christianity. I was completely separate from it.
14:02: So when I got saved and then basically thrown back into going home in an environment where there's no opportunity to go to church,
14:13: I was not going to talk about Christ because I knew that was going to get me out of the house with a casket being buried in my place, which almost did actually happen when my parents found out two years later.
14:26: But when I got to college is where I got to meet other Christians, and I was starving to learn.
14:34: The problem I had was the only people that were at the college were Word of Faith, and I trusted they know better, because here's the thing
14:42: I ended up finding out. People who grow up in the church, they grow up with the lingo, they grow up with all of the ideas of how church is supposed to work, and when you're put into that with no knowledge of it, it all seems foreign, but the people that are there or grew up in it have no idea.
15:02: And that was the reason I think for me discipleship became so important, because I was starving, like you're saying, for this young lady.
15:10: I mean, how else are we going to learn? Now, there are some pastors who would say, well, we disciple from the pulpit.
15:20: Okay, that's maybe an hour on a Sunday, if even an hour. I mean, some churches it's maybe only half an hour, 20 minutes.
15:30: But is that going to really be enough time? Is the pulpit where God designed for people to learn more about him?
15:42: Well, you know, when you look at Christ's ministry, of course, he preached to large crowds, sometimes thousands and thousands of people, but it's clear he did not rely exclusively on his preaching to make disciples.
15:55: He spent really time with the 12, the three, particularly Peter, James, and John.
16:01: And so even Jesus did not rely upon the pulpit ministry. Now, there is a measure of disciple making that can occur from the pulpit.
16:10: I think one of the main things about that, of course, you learn, you should if you have a good exposter pastor, that's going to be very good to get into the scriptures that way.
16:24: But also the model that he presents when he's preaching, if he reads a passage of scripture and then really never returns to that passage, okay, that's discipling the listeners, but in a negative way.
16:38: They're learning, you know, my pastor reads that verse, but then he says something else that has nothing to do with the passage.
16:45: Well, that's discipling them again in the wrong way. They're not seeing a commitment to scripture. They're seeing, you know, just the pastor's wit or whatever.
16:55: But when the pastor is diligent and committed to the scriptures, and what does this passage say?
17:02: And we've got to, you know, look at what the meaning of that passage is and how it applies as the
17:08: Holy Spirit wanted it originally and for us today. Well, then you are discipling to a point in a good way of telling your congregants and people there, hey, we need to be committed to the scripture.
17:22: But still, I agree with you very much. There are other levels of disciple -making beyond the pulpit or the platform -oriented disciple -making.
17:32: Eventually, you've got to get down to where it's more personal and even beyond a program. There are programs you can go through.
17:40: We'll just check the boxes here. Okay, I memorized this scripture. I did this or I did that. And you learn more.
17:46: Cognitively, you have more knowledge in your head, but that doesn't mean that you know how to make another disciple.
17:55: And I think that's something that, you know, for me as, I guess, an educator, it's just been a real burden for me.
18:01: When you look at Christ and his model for making disciples, you know, in Luke 11, he was praying in a certain place like he often did.
18:11: His disciples came up to him and one of them said, would you teach us to pray like John taught us to pray?
18:17: Jesus didn't say, well, come listen to my sermon series on prayer, you know. And he didn't say, well, go to this website on prayer.
18:26: He said, no, when you pray, pray like this. And he modeled the prayer for them, you know, showed them how to pray, pray with them.
18:34: And I think that's how Jesus probably did most of his spiritual discipline and teaching was not just by a lecturer, but it was by actual hands -on learning, you know, learning experience.
18:49: And I think that's the way we need to be making disciples. Yeah, because you really can't pour your life into another person from a pulpit.
18:58: That's a one -directional way. And a lot of it is two -directional.
19:04: I mean, it is where you're pouring your life into them, but how do you really know where their need is if you're not hearing from them?
19:11: That's exactly right. Yeah, we'll go ahead. I was going to say at the same time, you know, I know for myself, when
19:17: I'm discipling someone, there's countless times that without realizing it or without planning on it, they're discipling me in areas where they are more knowledgeable or further ahead or just their way of thinking.
19:32: So I think that discipleship is a two -way street and people forget that. Now, when we're talking, right, the difference really between this church growth movement and a healthy church, why do you think that the church growth movement, or do you think, actually
19:53: I should ask it this way first, do you think that the church growth movement is a healthy model for discipleship?
19:58: And if not, why? Well, I'm very hesitant to say that I think it's healthy.
20:05: I know, as I said earlier, when I was a seminary student, that was the big thing, you know, was the church growth movement and do whatever you can to get people to come.
20:17: And really, I was a little bit hesitant about it then. Something just didn't sit right with me, and I don't know if I can articulate it all even now.
20:26: But as we look back years later, there's lots of folks that join church and we don't know where they are.
20:33: And I know still, even after decades now, people who've been a part of a church, when they still don't know how to study their
20:40: Bibles, when someone in their lives, maybe it's a son or a daughter, you know, asks questions about salvation, rather than being able to share the gospel with them, they have to call the pastor, you know.
20:54: And I mean, as a pastor, you know, an interim pastor, I'm fine with doing that, but I really appreciate it when a young father walks into the office with his young son and gives me a great testimony of how the
21:10: Lord's been working in their home and the son's questions about, you know, the
21:15: Lord and how he gets saved with his father being right there, you know, as the one leading him in that salvation experience.
21:26: That's what really excites me. And I just wish we had more of that. And as I said, too, earlier, it really does bother me.
21:35: I put church growth and seeker -sensitive together.
21:41: Maybe I should not do that. But I just see things trying to reach lost people.
21:48: Good to do that. Good to do that. But Jesus, remember in Luke 10, he's talking about the fields are waiting to harvest.
21:57: There's not really a problem there. There are lost people, but they're waiting to harvest.
22:03: They're ready to be harvested. It's the laborers who are few. And so his prayer that he says, it's a strong word, really meaning to beg with the sense of urgency, beg, pray to the
22:19: Lord of the harvest that he would send forth laborers into the harvest. Well, you know, laborers need to be equipped.
22:27: They need to be ready. And I think that's just where we have failed a great deal is not discipled people to where they're equipped, mature enough to be real effective laborers out in the harvest.
22:40: So we get people to come to church. You can do fine things to get people to come to church.
22:48: But it makes sense that if you do something big and fun to get them there, you're going to have to keep doing big and fun, maybe bigger and funner or more fun things to keep them coming back.
23:02: When I did my interviews with the new converts, it was interesting. Those guys never talked about even coming to church because of a big event.
23:15: I mean, not one single one said, well, they had this big Super Bowl party at the church or they had this big concert at the church.
23:23: And not saying, well, I won't say all that's wrong, but they did not say that's why they came.
23:30: They came because somebody invited them. And then they stayed because of the solid preaching of the word.
23:38: That's what they said. They really wanted to stay and hear the word preached and the family environment, the family -like atmosphere that they had.
23:48: Well, you don't have to do big, expensive, trickery things to get people to come to church.
23:56: If you'll just invite them and have good, solid preaching and be a family to them, that seemed to be what helped the new converts in my study.
24:07: Yeah, because this is the model God has designed. What it seems to me is our culture is so bent on celebritism, having everyone be a celebrity, have a platform.
24:20: There's so much focus on that. It seems like with the whole church marketing movement that occurred, people are more interested in trying to figure out how to build the church to a point where Andy Stanley actually says it's a sin to go to a small church because you don't have that big church feeling.
24:40: And I strongly disagree with him, especially the fact that the majority of churches are going to be smaller. And I would argue many of those smaller ones are healthier because people can actually go to their pastor and ask questions and be discipled, where you're not going to have that in a larger church.
25:01: They're too busy doing other things. Now, there are churches that will have several pastors.
25:06: That's understandable. And the healthier churches are going to have, I believe, discipleship plans.
25:13: They're going to have, I don't want to say program, but you have it planned in. I mean, I was part of several church plants, and in all of them, the first thing that we would do is as people come in, whether they get saved or not, we would disciple them.
25:31: I had a former pastor who had retired from ministry. He was no longer in ministry.
25:39: He literally was the pastor that wrote the study guides that we would take people through when we discipled people, and he wanted to join the church.
25:50: Well, the requirement is you get discipled. And I remember saying to him, I just feel so awkward here.
25:57: I mean, you wrote this material. I have to go through the answers with you, and you wrote this.
26:03: What am I going to teach you? And this is why I say discipleship is a two -way street. He turned to me and told me one of the most valuable lessons.
26:11: He turned to me, because I'm feeling uncomfortable. I'm feeling like it's a waste of his time, a waste of my time, but we're doing it because we put this in our bylaws so that everybody would get taught the way we want them to all know the basic principles of Christianity, what is the
26:26: Bible, what is prayer, how to share the gospel, things like this. And I'm sitting there feeling uncomfortable, and he says,
26:35: Andrew, who would I have to think I am to think that you can't teach me?
26:43: Yes, you're first year in seminary, and I already have my degree, but what would that say about me if I think there's not things
26:51: I can learn from you? And I was just like, ouch. But that is the mentality that a lot of times we have, is we reach a certain level of education, now we got that checkbox off, and we can move on, and as if we're not going to either learn anymore or we can't learn from people that know less than us.
27:13: I think this is a thing in discipleship that really causes a lot of people to not disciple properly.
27:20: And when I think about discipleship and the models that people have,
27:27: I believe discipleship was designed to be one -on -one. We see it with Christ, as you mentioned.
27:33: There's the 12 disciples, but you end up seeing in the Gospels, there's kind of three groups within the 12.
27:42: There's the group that's seemingly on the more the outside of that, and then you have the three or four that are always with Christ.
27:53: Peter, James, John, and Andrew are the four that are always together with him.
28:00: I see this model, I'll take it in an Old Testament book, and you'll see my engineering mind come out, but this is what
28:07: I end up doing when reading the Bible. When I see numbers in the Bible, they're boring typically, so I start doing things with numbers.
28:15: And so I look at numbers of here you have Nehemiah, he's reading the Bible, they finish all the work, they bring the
28:23: Bible out to read, and you end up seeing numbers of people that are there. And you see the priests, and here is
28:31: Ezra, he's reading the Scriptures to all the people that are there. But then you end up seeing that there's references to the
28:39: Levites who are now training smaller groups of people, and then even smaller groups with more hands.
28:46: So what I end up seeing is, yeah, there's a place for that public proclamation, but the application came in smaller groups.
28:56: And this is a thing where I think that a lot of people, they kind of fail in thinking that discipleship is something that can be done without investing time.
29:09: Like, let's just hear, we train everyone all at once, boom, there you're done. Like, it's just a head knowledge thing. With your background in studying this,
29:17: I mean, is that just what discipleship is, or is there more to it?
29:24: I agree with what you said. There really are many discipleship programs out there or strategies that are somewhat mass productions.
29:35: And let's get as many people as we can to come and listen to me, basically communicate knowledge.
29:41: I use an illustration called Guitar Way, and in that illustration I'll take a guitar and I'll show somebody the different parts of a guitar, hear the different strings and just the parts of a guitar.
29:55: And so a person knows more about a guitar, but he doesn't know how to play it.
30:01: And I might even take it, I play guitar just a little bit, and I'll take it and I'll play something for him and say, okay, you've seen me play a guitar, but are you able to play it?
30:11: Well, obviously you can't. His knowledge has increased about a guitar. He may even have aspired now to want to have this ability to play guitar, but I still haven't taught him how to play the guitar.
30:26: Okay, what have I got to do? Well, clearly he's got to put his hands on the guitar, and I need to show him where to put his fingers and how to strum it, and I need to let him do that.
30:36: And I think that similarly we have in churches, we've just told people about guitars or we've told them about the
30:44: Bible, and maybe we've told them about doing evangelism, and maybe they want to, but we haven't taken that next step and shown them how to get it done.
30:54: And that's where I really think there's a difference maybe between discipleship and disciple making.
31:02: Discipleship, you increase your knowledge of doctrines or things about the
31:10: Bible, but still do you know how to do those things? And then do you know how to teach somebody else how to do those things?
31:19: There's different levels of learning. There's cognitive learning, effective learning that just affects you, your desires, and then there's behavioral skills learning.
31:32: We need to get up to that level, and I think that's what Jesus did. Again, he preached that could do cognitively.
31:40: You could learn more. You could be inspired by that, but then he discipled showing those disciples how to do things, and that's where I think a lot is missing in disciple making strategies.
31:55: Now, you've written some materials to help people with discipleship, and after this break what
32:00: I'd like to do is talk about that and talk about some of the things that you've written and how they can help people.
32:07: The good news is Striving for Eternity would love to come to your church to spend two days with your folks teaching them
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33:06: All right, so we're back, and you have written the Discipleship Way series, or Disciple Way series.
33:15: Can you describe that? How does that help folks in discipling others? Well, I appreciate that.
33:22: At the seminary, we've taught evangelism explosion for many years, and back years ago, we would actually teach it, go out and visit people and share the gospel in small groups.
33:35: And I began to think about that and how probably all the spiritual disciplines needed to have a hands -on, on -the -job training aspect to it.
33:47: And I used to talk about that in a class I taught, and I'd tell students, you know, we need to find hands -on ways to teach people to study their
33:58: Bibles and how to pray and how to share the gospel and so forth. And for probably two or three years, students would raise their hands and say, well, you know,
34:08: Atterbury, how do you do that? And I would kind of scratch my head and say, well, I'm not exactly sure how you do it.
34:13: I just know that's the theory behind it. That's what we need to do. Well, finally, it dawned on me there's a need for something, you know, to help people learn how to do spiritual disciplines with a hands -on, practical, experiential learning component.
34:31: And so some friends of mine, we got together, and we talked about that a lot, a great deal, prayed about it.
34:39: It was heavy on our hearts. And we really felt like the Lord led us to put together a curriculum that's called
34:47: Disciple Way, and it's seven disciplines for maturing in Christ. And they're
34:53: Bible study, prayer, worship, giving, witnessing, serving, and then leading.
34:58: And it really is a leadership development curriculum. And there are seven workbooks that go with it.
35:07: And they're designed, though, to get you into the Bible. There's a Bible study on each lesson.
35:14: You're doing inductive Bible study. You're learning how to study the Bible. One of the first questions
35:20: I ask when I'm leading someone through it, we're looking at 2 Timothy, and we ask the question, who's the author?
35:29: And the person might say, well, Paul. Well, my second question is, well, how do you know that?
35:35: And often they just say, well, I just know. Well, I heard a pastor preach that, or I just know.
35:41: And so my next question is, well, how are you going to disciple somebody to discover the answer when you're not there?
35:48: And that's my thinking here. I want you to learn just how to look at a passage of Scripture, how to find the answers out of the
35:55: Scripture if possible, and then other resources that might be available, what are good resources they can use.
36:02: But we'll spend time going through a passage, and we'll do it again in a week or two.
36:09: We'll do another one, and we'll go through it enough where hopefully when it's nearing the end of that book that I'm confident that you do know how to study your
36:19: Bible, at least enough to keep going. And then we'll do the same thing. We'll study passages on prayer, but we'll increasingly spend more and more time praying together, often praying through Scripture.
36:31: I call praying with my eyes open where I look at John 3 .16, and I pray, Lord, thank you that you love the world so much, and that includes me, that you gave your only son
36:42: Jesus. And I'll pray through that Scripture. The goal is, and we've seen this happen, where by the end of it, people who are faithful, when they come in, they're faithful to the
36:56: Lord, not just in church attendance, but they're faithful. And they go through that, and they should be able to equip others the same way that I equipped them.
37:07: I was at a conference a few years ago, and a man found out I was there and wanted to meet me.
37:14: Not that I'm anybody special, but he did. And he knew I'd helped put
37:19: DiscipleWay together. And he said, hey, I just wanted to meet you. He said, my pastor is this man.
37:25: He called him. He said, you taught my pastor at DiscipleWay. My pastor taught me, and now
37:31: I'm teaching some people. And he said, it's kind of like this. He pointed to me. He said, it's like you are a parent, and my pastor is your child, and I'm your grandchild, and you have great -grandchildren you've not met yet.
37:44: And that's exactly what I think we need. And DiscipleWay is designed for helping give a tool so that people can learn how to do these disciplines hands -on and teach other people to do them, and teaching other people as well how to continue that making of disciple -maker process.
38:04: So that's just a little summary of DiscipleWay. Well, that's exactly what we see Paul saying to Timothy in 2
38:10: Timothy 2. He ends up saying, what you've heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men.
38:20: So it goes from Paul to Timothy to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
38:27: So you end up seeing four generations there. Paul teaches Timothy. Timothy teaches faithful men. Faithful men teach others.
38:33: That's the model that you just described. It's a biblical model. Well, it is, and that's a very key passage that is foundational for our
38:43: DiscipleWay strategy. And one of the things that we wrote a book called Following the Model of Christ by Making Disciple -Makers, and it's just,
38:52: I call it a textbook. It really just lays the theory behind the curriculum itself that we use.
38:58: And the curriculum, again, is just a tool. Once you learn how to do it, you don't necessarily even have to have the curriculum.
39:03: But we base heavily on 2 Timothy 2 too. The committing to faithful men.
39:09: Now somebody asked me years ago, well, how do you describe a faithful man? And I was a little unclear about that, but someone else pointed out to me the verse is following 2
39:20: Timothy 2 too. It goes into three illustrations, like a good soldier, an athlete, and a farmer.
39:30: The good soldier endures hardship. He's not tangled up in things of this life, and he's very concerned about pleasing his commanding officer.
39:38: Okay, when you see a person in your church that is very concerned about pleasing the
39:43: Lord, not overly entangled in things of the world, you might be finding a faithful person.
39:51: And like an athlete who competes according to the rules so he can receive the crown, if you see a person that is very, very concerned about the
40:02: Bible and doing the word of God, you might find a faithful person. And then a person like a farmer, just a hardworking farmer, just willing to do the hard things that need to be done.
40:15: Those are ways. Look at people that way and think, that guy is looking like a hardworking farmer.
40:21: He's looking like an athlete. He's looking like a soldier. That's the type of person that maybe right now he's not able to disciple people.
40:32: But that passage 2 -2 of 2 Timothy, commit to faithful men who will be able to teach others.
40:40: The will be able is a future indicative, which means this is indicative of the future.
40:46: So probably right now they may not be able to teach others, but after they spend time with you and trusting to them, faithful men and women, and trusting to them, they will become able to teach others also.
40:59: And so I think that's where, again, where we miss so much. We do a mass effort at disciple making.
41:06: We don't look for the faithful people. We just look for people. And then what we commit to them is simply at the cognitive level, they just know more in their heads, but they never learn this ability of being able to teach others also.
41:23: And so I think we're kind of using the right terms like discipleship, but our definitions are a little skewed.
41:31: We don't have the disciple making, able to teach, faithful person. We don't always have that, but we need to.
41:41: Yeah, so let me, I want to get into talking about the seminary because I do think seminary education is important.
41:48: So after this break, what I'd like to do is discuss the seminary and some things about why seminary education is important.
41:56: So let's do that right after this break. Ephesians chapter four, verse 25.
42:03: Therefore laying aside falsehood, speak truth. Each one of you with his neighbor for we are members of one another for his name's sake.
42:14: What's up, everybody? I'm Jamal Bandy, the host of the prescribed truth podcast, where I seek to distribute the truth that the doctor prescribes to the church and the world today.
42:23: The Lord graciously brought me out of a cold in 2010, saved me in 2013 and in 2017 prescribed truth began.
42:33: My mission has been to spread the truth of God's word while refuting dangerous lies affecting most churches and the culture at large from a biblical and reform perspective.
42:42: Join me on Sundays at 6 p .m. Eastern time for the live recording of the podcast on YouTube and download the audio version wherever podcasts can be found, including the
42:53: Christian podcast community. If you would like to know more about prescribed truth, please visit my website at prescribed truth dot com.
43:00: And remember, this world is full of errors, but the only thing that the doctor prescribes is truth.
43:08: Blessings. All right. And they like this podcast are part of the
43:13: Christian podcast community. If you want to check out all of the podcasts over there, just go to Christian podcast community dot org.
43:20: There is 21 plus podcasts out there. I have to say the plus because I know there's more that keep getting added.
43:28: I know that there's two in just waiting for contracts to be signed, and we'll have two more to announce.
43:34: And last time I looked, I think there were 17 or 18 in the queue. So be checking it out.
43:40: Keep coming back to Christian podcast me dot org to find out more. So your role is the dean over at BMA seminary.
43:49: Now, before we get into your role there, let's first discuss why a seminary education is important, because this is something a lot of people
44:00: I've seen this where people just become self -proclaimed pastors. They just start their own church and think that that's okay.
44:10: So their argument will always be, well, I have the Holy Spirit. I don't need to go to seminary. So I want to ask you two part question.
44:18: One, is that a valid argument? Is it okay to say, well, I have the Holy Spirit, so I don't need seminary and kind of leads into seminary always required.
44:29: But then if seminary is good, why, why get a seminary education? What's the importance of it?
44:36: Well, I appreciate that. Let me see if I can answer both of those. I do think it's a legitimate thing to say, well, I have the
44:41: Holy Spirit. You know, what more do I need? That's legitimate. But I remember thinking that myself, having a question with that back when
44:50: I was trying to decide whether to come to seminary or not, and pastors in my area would even try to persuade me at times not to attend seminary for that very reason.
44:59: But I remember thinking about 2 Timothy 2 .15, which is one of the very first Bible verses
45:04: I ever memorized back in vacation Bible school when I was a kid, and that is to study to show yourself approved unto
45:12: God, a workman who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. So you were in Iwana.
45:18: Well. You just gave it away. It was not Iwana. No. Okay.
45:25: Because when you say the first verse, that's the first verse they train everyone to do. Well, it is.
45:31: I think before Iwana even came into existence, I had memorized that one, at least in my awareness.
45:37: But no, I really did think about that, and I thought, well, the Holy Spirit inspired that passage.
45:44: And then also the thing that really helped me was reading in the book of Proverbs. I think it was the second chapter where he describes there the wisdom of seeking after knowledge, applying your heart to understanding, seek it like you would for a hidden treasure.
46:03: And when you do that, then you'll find the knowledge of God. And I thought, wow, that sounds like going to seminary, where I can incline my ear to learning.
46:15: I can ask questions. I can really listen. So those help motivate me. And ultimately
46:22: I thought, okay, the Holy Spirit inspired those passages. And so to say, well, all you need is the
46:29: Holy Spirit is accurate. But when the Holy Spirit inspired the scriptures and said to study or be diligent, rightly handle the word of truth,
46:40: I took that as, well, that means the Holy Spirit is leading me to study. And so I would really encourage folks to think about that and consider that.
46:49: From a standpoint of seminary education, here's some things I learned. One is
46:55: I was concerned a little bit that my beliefs might be knocked down. But I thought, you know what, if my beliefs get knocked down, they were probably needing to be knocked down.
47:07: But what I found when I got here was that my beliefs were strengthened, not attacked and so forth.
47:13: They were just strengthened and enhanced. There's a measure of discipline, obviously, that's required to earn a seminary degree.
47:23: That's a value to you personally, but then also to churches and ministries that may be looking at you to come and work with them.
47:32: They see that you've been disciplined in order to accomplish earning a degree.
47:38: And so that's a good sign to them and for you of your discipline. It also shows that you've been willing to submit to authority, the authority of the curriculum, the authority of the faculty.
47:51: Well, that's encouraging to, say, a church that wants to know that you can work with people, that you can work with others, you can follow rules and that kind of thing.
48:01: Just the preparation for ministry, there are some things that I'm naturally interested in, studying and reading.
48:10: Other things, I'm just not as interested in them. When you come to seminary, there's a curriculum laid out for you that usually spiritually wise men have put together to say, these are the type of things that a person needs to prepare for ministry.
48:28: And I remember being in a class and honestly thought, I don't need that class.
48:34: I think I already know a great deal about that area. But I remember about halfway through the class, it just dawned on me,
48:40: I thought, man, Phillip, you really did need this and you're going to be so much better because you've taken this class.
48:49: I would have never taken that class on my own. And so that's a benefit of seminary, is it does get you out of your comfort zone a little bit.
48:58: Some people don't want to do that, but it's a real blessing to you and to your congregation when they know you've been disciplined to study, you're willing to submit to the authority of others, you've prepared yourself, and you've been forced to study things that you may not have studied on your own.
49:16: So I think that that really helps. And one thing as well, I've graduated several times from a university or seminary, and the more
49:27: I've learned, the more I realize I need to learn. And that's something before I went to school,
49:34: I didn't know how much I didn't know until I did know a lot more.
49:41: And so I would really encourage people to think about it. It'll be a blessing to you.
49:47: I would really encourage them to consider seminary. Because there is something that I notice even in my own life, the rigor of study is going to make a difference.
49:58: I'm in the process right now of contemplating going back for my doctorate of ministries just because that I can study on my own, yes, but I study what
50:10: I want when I study on my own. There is something when you're being forced to study things that you may not have wanted to that ends up getting you learning a lot more and is,
50:24: I think, more beneficial to the person. And the reality is a lot of people get this mindset, well, okay,
50:30: I've already learned this, I know everything. And that's what you want to avoid. We should never get to a point where we think we've figured it all out because that's pride speaking.
50:42: So what is your role over there at the seminary as dean for folks who have never been to seminary?
50:47: They're like, you know, we're joking if I introduce you as dean, some people might think it's your first name. What does a dean of a seminary do?
50:55: You just sit around all day and read papers for fun, right? Well, not quite.
51:02: I do sit around a lot, though. A lot of it is working on a computer and filling out reports and things for our accreditation, for example.
51:09: That's one of my main responsibilities and making sure those things are in order. Anything to help our students with just whatever regulations or so forth we're working with.
51:20: And let me mention this. Sometimes folks hear, oh, you're accredited, somebody's telling you what to teach. Accreditation doesn't do that.
51:27: It does more of make sure that if you say this is what our courses are about, here's our curriculum, it's just making sure you're doing what you say you're doing, trying to make sure you're offering the quality of education that you're promoting out there.
51:44: And so that takes a lot of work, working with faculty, just making sure our classes are being offered the way we need them to be and helping our faculty get in positions to teach those.
51:56: I spend a lot of time working with our recruiting office on helping make sure that people have the things they need as far as their application to the seminary and helping them to get in one of the degrees that fits them best and that type of thing.
52:13: And I really enjoy it. Probably one of the most satisfying things to me is really to work with students, trying to help them navigate where the
52:23: Lord may be leading them. I look back on my own life, and, you know,
52:29: I felt like the Lord wanted me to be a pastor. I really did. And so I continued my education beyond here, preparing for the pastorate.
52:39: But what was interesting is that the Lord really was preparing me to be the dean. I've been here 20 years now doing this.
52:47: And I look back, you know, 21 years ago, I wasn't planning on this, but I look and see how the
52:53: Lord was leading me along the way to get here. And particularly for folks that are not sure specifically what the
53:02: Lord has them, you know, wants for them, well, go ahead and prepare. You know, prepare by coming to seminary because the things you learn here, the
53:12: Bible, things about the Bible, things about theology, church history, making disciples, preaching if you're in one of the degrees that requires that, you know, those are pretty much things you're going to need to know regardless of the specific ministry to which
53:27: God calls you. And so go ahead and prepare, you know, for that. Now for folks who may be interested, the website is,
53:35: I keep looking at it, it's just bmats .edu, but it's actually b -m -a -t -s .edu,
53:42: stands for Baptist Missionary Association Theological Seminary. So check that out if you're interested in pursuing a seminary education.
53:52: Let me ask you this because there's a lot of seminaries out there, a lot of choices. What would you say is the distinctive of BMA?
54:01: I think a couple of things. One is really an emphasis on disciple -making. You know, a lot of what we've talked about today, we teach that here.
54:11: We want students to go through the experience of being discipled, and they will also go through some experience of making disciples and being the leader in that.
54:22: And that's in most of our degrees, and so that is a distinctive thing for us. We've got a good emphasis upon expository preaching, and not that others don't, but that is something that many schools don't have much of an emphasis there.
54:37: We're very conservative in our theological beliefs, and those are some of the things that really do make us distinctive.
54:45: We have, not really arguably, sometimes it's arguable, I guess, but our creditors often tell us that we may be the most affordable theological seminary that has accreditation, and so that is an encouraging thing to us.
55:02: And we've been rated by two or three different organizations as having some of the best online degrees available out there.
55:11: So those are some things that make us distinctive. Yeah, I was actually having that up because I was going to mention that, that BMA Seminary was awarded or named as the 2018
55:22: Most Affordable Online Colleges, which leads into the question of what are some of the degrees that you offer, and now we now know if folks need to get a degree online, work or family, whatever keeps them where they are, they can't move out there to where the seminary is in Texas there.
55:43: I don't know why anyone would want to move to a small state like Texas. You and I were joking offline about the fact that I come from Jersey, and my son moved out to Texas, and he couldn't believe the size of it.
55:54: But if people can't get out there to Texas, they can do this online. What degrees do you offer?
56:00: Yes, we've got two undergraduate degrees. One is an Associate of Divinity degree, so someone that maybe is above 25 years old, has not been to college or seminary, that would be an excellent degree for them.
56:16: And that is mostly available online. There is a little bit of time we'd like for folks to spend on campus with some of the disciple -making classes, but by far they can earn most of that online.
56:29: And then we have a Bachelor of Arts in Religion, and that's for someone who's already been to college a couple of years, has maybe their freshman and sophomore years.
56:39: They could transfer in and get their junior, senior years with us, and that's mostly available online also.
56:46: Again, there's a little bit of disciple -making. And when I say that, we offer courses in the summer and in the winter,
56:53: January sessions that allow somebody to come spend a little bit of time with us to get some classroom time.
57:00: And that has worked. We've had people from literally coast to coast to come and be with us and earn degrees that way.
57:07: We have four master's programs. Two of them are available 100 % online, a
57:13: Master of Arts in Religion and a Master of Arts in Pastoral Theology. And those are 36 -hour programs, and they're pretty popular for folks.
57:23: You don't have to come on campus. We'd love to see you here at graduation for sure. But then we have a
57:29: Master of Arts in Church Ministries and a Master of Divinity. And, again, those can mostly be earned online, but we want you to spend a little bit of time with us on campus.
57:39: That will help us with our accrediting. And let us get to meet you and spend a little time with you.
57:44: But it's doable if you could come spend a little bit of time in Texas with us during the summers and maybe in January sessions.
57:52: Yeah, my son moved out to Texas, and they had flurries, just a little bit of snow flurries.
57:59: He told me, he's like, Dad, they shut everything down. He goes, I wanted to go grocery shopping. And it's like, the roads are closed.
58:04: No one knows what to do. I'm like, they don't get those sort of things. But then he also got the privilege of, when he first moved out to Texas, he goes,
58:13: Dad, you know everyone has rifles in the back of their pickups out here? I was like, welcome to America, son.
58:21: You've left the communist country of New Jersey. So you have an event coming up. This is really how
58:27: I got to know of you, because you guys are going to be having March 31 through April 2.
58:34: You're going to have a dear friend of mine, Justin Peters, coming out and speaking. And it is open to the public.
58:41: He's going to be speaking at 10 a .m. and 3 p .m. on March 31 and April 2.
58:47: So if you're in the area, if you can make that, you're going to want to do that.
58:54: Saying Texas just isn't enough, because it's a rather big state. So you're in Jacksonville, Texas. So if you're anywhere in driving distance, you'd want to check that out.
59:04: The fact that you guys would invite Justin out just immediately gave me more respect for the seminary, not a lot of people.
59:15: They don't like someone who is willing to take strong stance on Scripture and willing to name names and teach people to be discerning.
59:24: I know Justin and I do a lot of travel together. We were in the Philippines. He and I are speaking for two weeks.
59:31: Someone asked me how it feels to be Robin to his Batman.
59:37: And I just said, if God calls me to be Robin to his Batman, I'm perfectly fine with that.
59:42: I'll close Striving for Eternity down and just take care of him so that he could travel and do what he needs to do, because he's a wonderful teacher, not just in the area of discernment.
59:53: That's the thing most people don't know. He really handles the Word of God well. And so when
59:58: I found out that you guys were having him, that's what actually intrigued me to start checking out the seminary a lot more and to learn more about the seminary and what's happening over there.
01:00:08: And so if folks are in that area, I want to encourage them to come out. I don't know if you have any other events going on that you might want to mention.
01:00:16: Those are the main thing right now. Every fall and spring we do have a special lecture series, and usually someone really good is with us to speak.
01:00:26: And we've had Justin a couple of times, maybe even three times to come out and be with us.
01:00:31: And so we're eager to have him again and really would welcome anybody to come and be with us on those days. So you want people really good.
01:00:37: Well, there goes my shot. I wish I could reword that.
01:00:44: Hey, after this commercial, I'd like to play a game with you. Looking for strategies that will help you engage in meaningful conversations with members of the
01:00:53: Mormon Church? Well, if so, take a look at Sharing the Good News with Mormons, a new book produced by Harvest House Publishers and edited by Mormonism Research Ministries' Eric Johnson and Sean McDowell.
01:01:04: Sharing the Good News with Mormons includes 24 helpful essays from two dozen Christian apologists, scholars, and pastors.
01:01:12: Pick up your copy at the Utah Lighthouse Bookstore or order directly from mrm .org.
01:01:18: And you can also get that at strivingforeternity .org. I am one of the 24 authors in that.
01:01:24: I was given the task of doing the, basically what this book is, is geared toward evangelizing to Mormons, but it's really just a lot of different techniques people have in evangelism.
01:01:35: I've enjoyed it. I've actually picked up some tips from others on some things I could do, not just to Mormons, and so it's been really good.
01:01:41: My task on that one was to deal with the topic of open -air evangelism. I really wanted my friend
01:01:48: Matt Slitt's topic when he did the topic on textual criticism and making arguments of defending the trustworthiness of Scripture.
01:01:56: It's a topic I love, but we are only allowed to do one chapter, and I was assigned that chapter because they said there were few that could do the open -air well, and so I have the chapter no one wants to read.
01:02:10: But if you want to check out the book, it really is, it's a book where each of our chapters are only about six pages long.
01:02:19: You can read any chapter in any order. So you could pick up different ideas. In the time of us recording this, the
01:02:27: Super Bowl just happened. I never really watched a Super Bowl. I've gone to them to evangelize at them, but there's an idea that I got from this book at a
01:02:38: Super Bowl or for a Super Bowl -type event, and that's to create a newspaper -like thing that would explain what people are going to experience at a
01:02:48: Super Bowl, at an event like that, but within that it also has the Gospel presented in different things.
01:02:54: So people pick it up because they think, oh, this is good, this is helpful, and it's really a very large tract, the Gospel tract that gives information about the event as well.
01:03:02: And they've done that effectively at Mormon temple openings, and I was like, wow, this could be adopted to other events as well.
01:03:10: And so I've tried to do that at different events and have gotten a really good response. I don't know that there's some who will go, oh, well, that's bait and switch.
01:03:19: No, because you want to try to transition that well. And speaking of transitions well, it's time for our
01:03:27: Spiritual Transition Game. It's time now to start the
01:03:32: Spiritual Transition Game. So I just transitioned from that book into the game.
01:03:40: Don't know if you picked up on that, but I did warn you ahead of time, Phillip, that we might play this game if we had time, and for folks who may be new to The Wrap Report, I'm very big on discipleship, and the first part of that is evangelism.
01:03:53: But what I've noticed and what a lot of people tell me is the hardest thing in evangelism is that transition from the natural world to the spiritual world.
01:04:01: And so what we've done is created a game of it, something you can play in youth groups or at church, small group settings, and training ourselves to look for ways to do that transition.
01:04:12: The better we do that, the easier that we do that, the more we're going to want to share the gospel.
01:04:18: We no longer have to say, Oh Lord, give me an opportunity to share the gospel. We can make an opportunity out of anything in our day, but we have to practice.
01:04:27: The more we practice, the easier it's going to come. And so with that, we're going to play a game. The rules of this game are very simple.
01:04:34: You're going to give me something for me to transition to in front of our audience here, which is those listening on podcast, and I do not edit this.
01:04:45: So I don't edit this section to remove any spaces of time if I'm stuck, don't know how to answer something.
01:04:54: So we try to do this to be an encouragement to you to see that you can, with practice, transition from anything to the gospel.
01:05:02: So, Philip, what am I going to transition to the gospel from today? Well, I've got two possibilities for you.
01:05:10: I'll let you choose. I'm sorry. One is hand surgery.
01:05:17: I wonder why you'd do that one. It came to my mind earlier.
01:05:24: And second, you could choose either hand surgery or in honor of the Super Bowl, as you mentioned just a moment ago, the phrase, everything is up to date in Kansas City.
01:05:36: Okay, well, I don't know the phrase, and I don't watch the Super Bowl, so I'll go with the hand surgery. And for folks who don't know why we're laughing at that, as you know, we weren't sure if we were going to be able to record today because I had to go to a doctor to find out if he was going to do surgery on my hand in the office today or whether he was going to schedule it and have to go to a place to get the procedure done, and it was going to have to be something that's scheduled.
01:06:05: And it was a really interesting thing. So I have this, and I know I described this to you, and not to get too graphic for folks,
01:06:13: I had just what seemed to look like blood that was underneath the skin. Sometimes you bang yourself and it causes a little pressure.
01:06:19: You just prick it, let the blood out, it heals, not a big deal. What I didn't realize is me thinking it's not a big deal and puncturing that actually caused the problem because there was a vascular tumor that was actually there, and once it's punctured, it won't heal.
01:06:39: It just, it'll keep bleeding. I mean, it actually was, this little puncture was bleeding for three days straight.
01:06:44: I couldn't stop it. And so, you know, it's like as soon as I take a Band -Aid off, it starts bleeding again. So I went to a doctor and they did this, you know, just cut it out to see if it's benign or not, and it was, which is good.
01:06:56: But they said if it's not, if it doesn't heal, you're going to have to go to a hand surgeon because it means that it's all the way down to the tendon and they have to open up the hand and cut it out.
01:07:08: And I realized that as I thought about that, it really is a very good description of something that we all are aware of, but we don't want to think about.
01:07:18: The things we do in our life where we try to put on a good face for others, we try to look really good on the outside, but inside we know we do things we don't want anyone to know about, that's called sin.
01:07:32: And we have this guilty conscience because our Creator actually wants us to know when we commit crimes against Him, we sin, we break
01:07:40: His law. And so that's what that guilty conscience is. We could put on a good front for people on the outside, and we could even try to remove those sins, like try not to do bad things anymore.
01:07:52: But we have a problem that's indwelling in us. It's at the root of the problem.
01:07:57: You can't just handle it on the outside. Like this tumor that I had, they couldn't just cut it on the tip.
01:08:05: They actually have to go to the root of the problem and remove it altogether. And the same thing is true with you and I. We have to remove the sin problem altogether, and the only way it can be done, because it can't be done from you and I because we still have the problem, the only way it can be done is an eternal being who can pay that eternal fine.
01:08:23: When we break God's law, because He's infinitely holy, it carries an infinite fine with Him, and therefore we need an infinite being to be able to do that.
01:08:33: And God, coming to earth as a man, being an infinite being can pay that fine, but being a human being can pay the fine for people.
01:08:41: And so we have to get to the root issue, which is our sin problem, where we have pride and selfishness.
01:08:47: We have to turn from that, turn from trusting what we think is our good nature, our good works, turn from that, and trust in Jesus Christ when
01:08:55: He died on that cross as a payment of sin. And that's the way to get to the root of the problem.
01:09:01: Otherwise, you may look good on the outside, but within you're still decaying, and you'll have to pay the price, which is an infinity, an infinite fine, one we can never pay.
01:09:12: We would have to pay that forever. But God made a way of escape. If we turn from ourselves to Him, turn from self, turn from good works, and trust what
01:09:23: He did alone on the cross. That's how we have eternal life. So that's how I would go from the surgery
01:09:28: I'm going to be having to the gospel. Well done. Well done.
01:09:35: The only thing I got out of the Super Bowl was that the president assumed Kansas City meant that the Kansas City Chiefs were in Kansas City, or in Kansas, I guess, and so everyone's making fun of them.
01:09:47: And yet how many of those people, here's the thing, how many of those people would criticize if someone said, refer to the
01:09:54: New York, I mean, just go with any of them, New York Knicks, the Jets, the Giants, and all of them play in Jersey.
01:10:00: Good point. So I think they're trying to look for something.
01:10:06: Yeah, probably so. Well, I appreciate you coming on. Discipleship is a very important topic.
01:10:12: It's something that's not spoken enough about and explained and taught enough about, and so I'm very glad to see that the seminary has really put that at the heart of how they're going to train men for ministry.
01:10:24: That's an important thing. So any last things you want to say before we sign out?
01:10:30: Yeah, the G3 conference had a pre -conference workshop called an expositor preaching workshop, and the seminary faculty was there.
01:10:38: Several of us were there helping with that, and that is going to continue.
01:10:43: There will be other conferences like that throughout this coming year, and I would encourage folks to find out about those at the
01:10:52: G3 website. They can find out about those. There's one in June, the early part of June, that's going to be near us in Lindale, Texas, and there will be one in Little Rock, Arkansas, one in New Hampshire, and one out in California by the end of the year, and so I would encourage pastors, particularly if you're interested in learning more about expository preaching, to get in on one of those workshops.
01:11:15: Now, it is a workshop. You're not going to hear lectures. There will be some messages, some lectures, but it's going to be a lot of time hands -on working together, going over passages of Scripture in a particular format, and we always get real positive comments anytime we do those type of workshops, and so I would really encourage folks.
01:11:38: I know the one in Lindale, Votie Bauckham, is going to be there assisting with that, so that will be kind of a fun thing to have him.
01:11:46: So, yeah, I would encourage folks to look into the G3 Expositor Preaching Workshop. I really support expositional preaching.
01:11:52: It's very important, and I'm familiar with what was going on there. A friend of mine, Tom Buck, is on the board there to help with that, and so if you are in an area where you can attend one of these, you should.
01:12:05: I'll get the information, and I will have it in the show notes. Actually, if you just go to g3conference .com, they'll probably have the link there, but I will have it in the show notes for you.
01:12:15: So you want to attend one of those if you can. This is important, folks. We've got to learn how to rightly handle
01:12:22: God's Word and to preach it if we're going to stand behind a pulpit and say, Thus says the Lord.
01:12:28: I tell you, I appreciate your having me on, and I would love to hear from some of your listeners if they're interested in the seminary or disciple way and any curriculum that we might have that could help with Bible study and so forth, but I appreciate it.
01:12:42: How would people best be able to get a hold of you, just through the seminary? That would be the best way, sure would, and that website you gave earlier would have other contact information.
01:12:53: All right, so go to www .bmats .edu.
01:13:00: So that's Bible Mission Association Theological Seminary. That's what it stands for, .edu.
01:13:06: Go there, check it out, get in touch with them. If you have questions for Dr. Alberry, please contact him through there.
01:13:13: Let him know that you heard about him through the Rapp Report, and maybe you could start discipling folks or maybe start going to the seminary.
01:13:22: People can never know where seminary education could lead. So thanks for coming on, and next week,
01:13:28: I believe, if all goes well, we had to cancel the interview, but I will have one more interview of someone that I met at G3.
01:13:36: I didn't meet him the first time at G3, but we got together at G3, and we wanted to have a longer interview, and that's
01:13:42: Jeffrey Rice. He does Bible rebindings, but his testimony is amazing.
01:13:48: He was kidnapped at a very young age and was able to escape that and escaped that and ended up into gang activity and things like this.
01:13:58: So we're going to get into some of that and how he got into Bible rebinding. He does excellent work. So hopefully that will be on the next edition of the
01:14:06: Rapp Report. This podcast is part of the Striving for Eternity ministry. For more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.
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