Debate: Does God Exist? # 14

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00:00

Ask a biologist, don't take my word for it, but the irreducibly complex argument does not work.

00:07

The idea the eye is irreducibly complex is another. Darwin dealt specifically with the eye and thought it was incredible, and yet he showed in study and research how it had happened.

00:21

I would say, I kind of agree with what you're saying about irreducible complexity. However, specified complexity and the development of information structures, that is hugely problematic in the evolutionary system.

00:33

The permutability of the nucleotide bonds that require information to exist exceeds what's called the universal probability bound, the number of possible events in an entirely existent universe that's 18 billion years old.

00:47

I'm not gonna go into all the details of it. Development of information cannot be explained, as far as I understand, by random chance development of nucleotide sequences that have to be so complex for information to occur in the first place that they would not have been able to survive to get to that complexity.

01:03

Information requires a reader as well as a sender, a double issue which the evolutionary theory has not yet been able to ascertain how it occurred.

01:12

Well, let me just say in response, just because Matt doesn't understand it doesn't mean there's not an answer for it. Go ahead.

01:18

The greater unknown, the greater unknown theory. Go ahead. I don't know if I'll answer this question.

01:23

Oh, try to. It's just a question I have for you. If God exists and if Christianity is true, my question for you is what will you say to God when you see him?

01:36

I'll say, God, you didn't give me enough evidence. It'd be very nice. Isn't that a good answer?

01:42

And then he'll say, yes, I did. He's given you his son who resurrected from the dead, which I would love to hear you debate him on that.

01:50

I'll be delighted to. I will be delighted to. In scripture, 19 ,000 copies in manuscripts.

01:56

Then why doesn't everybody in the world except me agree with your interpretation of it? Okay. Let's see, there's

02:05

Christians who survived the Roman Empire who was trying to destroy Christianity. Would you tell me why they're, why are?

02:10

Because new Christians were coming to faith because they saw the faith. You're right, thank you for your sermon. Why are there

02:16

Jews and Muslims who are going to the hell that Matt wants to assign them to when the truth is so evident before them?

02:21

Why aren't they? Because they deny it by their minds. Because they've darkened their minds to the truth. Read Romans.

02:26

They're bad people. They're bad people, right? This is a fallen world. They've denied the truth to God.

02:31

They're bad people in other words. Just read Romans chapter one. Thank you, they're bad people, thank you. Just in a moment of self -defense, there is no way ever that I want to assign anybody to hell.

02:44

Well, you just did earlier. You said all the Muslims and Jews are going to hell. We'd play back the tape. You got it.

02:49

I'm only repeating. Jesus Christ in the Bible said that. Oh, that's right, it's God's fault.

02:55

Not his, that's right, not moral. Matt, God's doing it. Okay, thank you. Keep it civil. Yes, ma 'am.

03:00

Let me finish. When you say I assign, that's improper. God did it. God did it. I'm only repeating what the

03:07

Gospels tell us. Right, and you'll burn people who disagree with the word of God, won't you? All right,

03:12

Edwin. Yes, thank you. I just have a question for you. How did you come to the conclusion that, or you're so sure that God created the three logical principles you've been speaking about?

03:22

He didn't create them. Or authored them, what? I would conclude that.

03:27

Oh, I didn't finish my question. How are you so sure that he created whatever, however you've been wording it this entire time, and you're so sure that it wasn't a community of thinkers who came to one conclusion?

03:40

And I actually feel as though your argument of one person thinking logic one way and another changing their mind and that changing all of logic is actually how we came to these three principles that you speak about.

03:53

And that thought, human thought, and I'd rather you not use the argument you've been saying about chemistry and it's just chemistry again, because I do understand what you're saying.

04:01

You have a multifaceted argument in which you restrict what I can and cannot say in your question. It's not a valid way to do that.

04:08

I don't mean to be rude, but that's just not, you know, you can't say, I don't want you to say this or that. Because I've actually heard people saying the question similarly to what

04:15

I'm saying, and you're not answering it for my standards, so. Because that's the problem

04:21

Frank had in the room. You see, proof is different than persuasion. And I can give you a logical proof, but it doesn't mean you're gonna be persuaded.

04:28

And I absolutely understand that. But you see, what you're basically saying is that mankind just develops and invents logic, all right?

04:37

Well, you need to demonstrate, because that's a statement that you're making, that I would say to you, show me how that's possible.

04:43

Now you can hypothesize. I can't recreate so many minds coming to the same conclusion.

04:49

I couldn't recreate or prove that to you. Okay, so then you cannot demonstrate your theory to be true. Nor can you, but I'm just saying. Wait a second, wait a second.

04:55

But I'm saying, but then you cannot demonstrate your idea and your theory to be true. And you can't even use a scientific method to do that, which has to do with attestability and repeatability and observation.

05:04

But you can't even do that with the issue of logic. So my question. Therefore, logic is of a different ilk. So my question, going back to my question, how you came to the conclusion.

05:12

If there are two possibilities, and we'll reduce it to that, that these three conclusions, these three logic principles that you have been speaking about.

05:20

Yes, there's three of them. If you say God, this is how you know there is a God. But there's the other possibility that a community of thinkers over many, many years came to one conclusion.

05:33

And there are - I'm sorry, I can't follow you. I'm sorry. I have a little bit of a, I have trouble with complicated questions.

05:40

You hit a brick in the dust on me. That's clear, Matt, that's clear. No, my question is just - I'm sorry. Okay, my question is just -

05:45

No, complicated questions that are 50 syllables long going on for 20 minutes. I'm sorry, I can't follow all that.

05:50

How am I gonna respond to it? Okay, no, can you be quiet for a few minutes? Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me.

05:56

But there are people that have different ways of understanding things. And I would not mock anybody who had a learning disability of any sort.

06:03

And if someone requires a request that your question be brought down to a different level, that's fine, and doesn't need to be mocked.

06:09

So my question is just, you believe that God came up with these, that's how you believe, that's why you believe in God?

06:15

God did not come up with these, no. Okay, give me the way you want me to say it, and I'll say it back to you that way. Well, I'm just saying that he didn't come up with these.

06:21

Because to say he came up with these means he didn't exist at some time. That's not part of the argument. Okay, how do you want me to say it?

06:27

I don't want you to say it any way. I want you to say it accurately. Okay, you've been saying this whole time that the reason you know there's a God from the very beginning, whatever your argument is, is the three logic principles.

06:35

And I'm just asking you, how you know, how you know in your heart, how you know in your soul, for your faith and for your belief in God, that a community of thinkers over time did not come to these same conclusions by arguments, by debate like this, and they came to just conclude, not on everything, we all disagree on many things, but they said, yeah, you're right, and you're right, and you're right, that this is this, and that is that, whatever those three principles are.

06:57

So all you're saying is how we know he didn't agree with them, and people invented them? Not invented. I don't think you invent logic.

07:03

Is stubborn? Agreed upon certain logic principles, which are really just, it's not even, it's really just obvious.

07:09

So they decided what is logical. They just, I mean, came to it over time when speaking between these thinkers.

07:15

So they did, they just, but the people got together and said, that's logical, and that's not. Really, I don't think there was like a forum that created the three principles.

07:22

Well, then what was it? How can I answer the question if you can't tell me? Okay, well, he's refusing to answer. No, I'm serious.

07:28

I'm serious. See, I'm asked questions like this all the time, but the questions are not descriptive enough to be able to be addressed.

07:34

That's why I was trying to ask you how you wanted me to word what you want me to say on your side. You believe what you believe about God and logic.

07:40

There are several issues here. One of them is that if you don't understand the argument, you need to ask for clarification. I'm not trying to be condescending in any way.

07:47

I understand your argument, I do. I don't know what you. Well, if you do, then how come you didn't represent it properly to me? Because every time

07:53

I, you know, I use one word differently, and you're saying, no, that's not what I said. No, that's not what I said. Even though I think human to human, you know

07:58

I'm saying exactly what you're saying. No, I don't try and make those assumptions. I try and hear what you're actually saying and go with what you're actually saying.

08:03

I really try and do that. Do you understand what I'm saying? I do, I think. And, and, and, and, I do, I do. And, and, thank you, thank you.

08:12

Actually, actually, one more question. Does everybody in this room understand my question? Are you the only one who doesn't understand it?

08:18

Okay, okay. How, let me, listen, Matt, let me put it this way. How do you know that what you think about these things is not something

08:27

Satan put in your mind to deceive you? How do you know that's not the case? Well, that, does that, yeah.

08:34

So you want me to prove a negative. Let me, let me see if I can just clarify, because I, I mean,

08:39

I've seriously got some thought on this. Well, you've been asking me to prove there's not a God, and now you turn around. I never asked you to prove there is no

08:45

God. Oh, I see. Maybe I'm gonna misrepresent these two positions, but I think, I think what you're saying is it, is it's, it's like a dialectic.

08:53

Through time, we've, we've developed these laws of logic, and more of a dialectic process.

08:59

I believe you would say they are inherent. She's, I think she's, they, it's not a product, it's inherent to the human condition.

09:07

It's out there. I think, is that? I've already answered why.

09:12

So, so why, the ultimate answer of why you think the other way, I would assume, go ahead, yeah.

09:18

The reason logic can't be, what you're saying is the product of human minds. It's ultimately what it comes down to, the product of human minds.

09:24

Well, it can't be that because, for example, you and I. Wait, wait, you do think it's inherent? That's what, you do think it's inherent?

09:30

Yeah, he thinks that. Okay. And the reason he thinks that is because God has put it there.

09:36

He's good, he's a great mind reader. See, have I got that right, Matt? I've got it, I know what you're thinking.

09:42

I've read your website, it's a very good article there. There are all those big words and stuff, I've read it.

09:48

Okay, well, why don't we, maybe I'll continue that afterwards, let's, let's just get to the end. We got about a half dozen other things to debate in subsequent days.

09:55

My first part was a comment, and it's about our faith in Christ, that it's a faith of redemption.

10:02

It's a faith of forgiveness and salvation. It's not a faith or a doctrine of hate.

10:08

You may take that when the issue was brought up of, okay, are all those who don't believe in Jesus Christ gonna be condemned to hell?

10:16

That's not a message of hate, that's a message of my understanding of the doctrines and the tenets of Christianity.

10:24

My desire and my hope is that those who don't believe in Christ would come to faith in Christ.

10:30

That's not a hate message, that's a love message. I see, that's love, that's right, okay.

10:35

You don't hate the sin, you hate the sinner. I don't force it, it's not a forced message.

10:41

It's just a message, it's a faith. I, and the Bible doesn't teach to go to war over such things.

10:48

You're right, I can't, I'm not, I'm not, I can't believe in what you believe in.