Matatics/Sungenis Debate

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White And good morning afternoon welcome to the dividing line on a

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Tuesday the only dividing line this week will not be able to be with you on Thursday traveling up to Toronto and I've already put the information as Good blog meister that I am on the blog

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Concerning the trip up to Toronto looking forward very much to speaking there on Saturday and Sunday on Saturday I'll be speaking on Islam and I'm sure we're gonna have an excellent time there in in Toronto and So we will not have a

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Thursday dividing line. However, if you are disappointed by that you just need to Keep your computer going at the end of the program today and switch on over to iron sharpens iron because I will basically be wrapping up here walking out of the studio walking into my office dialing the phone and getting online with with Chris Arnzen, we are going to continue

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The discussion that we began last week that had such an interesting caller call in on that one as well in regards to the top ten list that I put together and So we'll be continuing looking at that.

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My hope is to at least start looking at the point on the papacy and some of the

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Lack of biblical evidence and the history and so on so forth related the subject of the papacy.

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So you might want to Be listening to that right after the program is over Today going straight in there and doing that and Chris says he's going to try to arrange to have

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Jerry Matitix and Robert St. Genes on to discuss the validity of the papacy a study of a contest as he uses the term, of course, he can

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Jerry prefers to call himself a consistent Catholic which It doesn't really tell you a whole lot but I've been you know

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What happens when Robertson genus debates Jerry Matitix now now the the the

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Super Bowl would be of Scott Hahn would debate Jerry Matitix now, that would be an absolute blast.

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That would be something I would pay. That's right. I'd pay money To watch that one.

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I would pay money to watch the cross -examination of that one You remember when we were there and the

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Pennsylvania Turnpike and we were talking with dr. John Gerstner and We came to the conclusion that he didn't have any answers.

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Well, you don't have any answers now, buddy, you know That'd be funny but anyway, can you imagine how long?

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Matitix his questions Well, well how fast it's a Dennis we're talking about Han there, but on either one.

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Well, see that's just it I don't I don't know how they're gonna arrange having this and Jenna semantics on because There's no way you can allow them to be talking to each other.

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It's just not possible. It's just not gonna work You know, we might need to do is we might need to take some clips from our cross -examination

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Portions and debates you've done and have you know response and no I don't know how to do it

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But after they are on he plans on doing two days, then I will be on the day after that.

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So maybe on Next Wednesday or something like that to discuss the now, you know

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People sort of asked me to handicap the debate since no one to my knowledge has debated the two of them as often as I have

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I think I thought I thought that We Matitix and I were at 13 debates someone said they counted 12

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That's probably because they're counting the single papers of debate as one instead of two because that was two separate debates on two different nights

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So but if if I've debated Matitix 13 times and I know

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I've debated so generous five times That's 18 debates between the two of them So nobody knows these guys better than I do as far as debates go

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And so if you were to ask me who I'd give the advantage to well

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The advantage clearly goes to Matitix and the advantage goes to Matitix because he is a Significantly better speaker

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Bob's not a good speaker. This is all there is to it I mean, he's he doesn't handle the clock. Well at all.

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I don't know. I can't tell you If he I don't even recall if in a single debate we've done he actually finished a

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Presentation before the end of his time what he does is he sees the clock's gonna at least he's better at Matitix He doesn't go over his time.

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I remember even with the program Matitix one three minutes took seven, you know I mean, I hardly even started talking on ISI a couple weeks ago until like 25 after something like that But you know

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Robert doesn't do that, but he doesn't manage his clock. Well, he'll be in the middle of a point a Totally horrible awkward place to stop looks at the clock says all my time's up.

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He'll sit down He's he's not a good speaker. He's a monotone speaker He doesn't have a whole lot of passion in his voice at all

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And and I would say as far as amount of information per minute Matitix has got him by double man.

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I mean he can out talk him He can talk him under the under the table So if it just comes down to competing sound bites where they're not actually talking to each other, you know

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Matitix has it all the way and Again because quite simply of the mechanical limitations of WNYG's phone system

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There is no way you can allow the two of them just to go back and forth You're gonna have to do something like one minute one minute one minute

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It's just the only way to do it because if you don't They're gonna be talking over each other and nobody is going to have a clue what either the one of them is saying

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Because you just won't be able to hear him. So I would give the advantage to Matitix though. I mean

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I Fundamentally All syngenous can say is look the church gets to interpret its own documents.

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And yeah, it's pretty obvious that these documents once meant this but now

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Rome gets to tell you what what they mean now and you just have to believe whatever Rome tells you and That's not a really fun position to be defending now of course if Matitix wins and he loses because if he wins then it demonstrates the papacy can simply disappear and go into apostasy and You have to you know, the amount of special pleading on either side is massive

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That's why I said when I was on with Jerry Hey, the the mistake Jerry Matitix made was in 1986 and became

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Roman Catholic There's there's where the fundamental problem is go back 1986 fix that one and the rest of problems will solve themselves at that point

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So yeah, I would yeah, I would definitely give the advantage to Matitix in a debate between he and Syngenis I'm not saying that he's a better debater in the sense of his points are actually valid, but he's much better at insinuating things and and You know, like I like a demonstrated on the blog when

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I kept playing portions of his statements, you know Funny thing is and I'll I hope you all caught this on the on the blog when

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I posted this couple weeks ago but I posted him Talking about Mary and he says now if if mr.

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White were to say blah blah blah blah then Clearly, he'd be wrong because mr.

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White but and he starts refuting What he just attributed to me as if I had actually stated it and it's

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I mean wouldn't is not even close to what I would believe and he would know that as At the time a doctoral student

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Westminster Seminary He would have no excuses whatsoever for not knowing what it was that I would believe on Yet then he nice turning around as if he just refuted me because that's what

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I said, and I never said anything like that It's just wow. That's just the way Jerry is and he never stops.

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He never stops I've told you before when we were up in Boston College We did the two debates up there apocrypha justification back in 1993.

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We got on the radio station as long story We've been told the radio program and canceled. It wasn't canceled.

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So I had to call in after it already started and As soon as it got on the phone

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Jerry had not His the pitch of his voice the speed of his speech had not changed and I think two days had passed

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He was still in debate mode 48 hours after the debate was over when

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I get done with a debate I'm done with the debate, you know, I can go on and do other things I can think about other subjects

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I can you know function as a fairly normal Guy and that's not Jerry he is just constantly in debate mode

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I cannot imagine what it's like to have that is your dad or your husband or whatever like whoa

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You know my wife will tell you I can get out of debate mode. I don't live in that mode all the time and Just so anyways,

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I'm looking forward to it. I don't know about anybody else, but I'm I'm certainly looking forward to Hearing that particular encounter and as I said,

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I think they're The only concern to me is I think there's gonna be a lot of people putting pressure on St. Janice not to do it because it's very clear that what the

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Roman Catholic apologetics community has decided to do is To ignore the existence of Jerry Maddox.

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That's the best they can do because they consider it a lose -lose situation if you if you

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Debate him in any way shape or form if you give him any air time at all if you acknowledge his arguments and acknowledge his

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Existence you lose. It doesn't matter whether you defeat him or not You still lose because it is demonstrating the fact that someone who used to be your poster boy

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Not only isn't your poster boy anymore, but he's quoting your own guys. He's quoting your own popes he's quoting your own alleged dogmatic definitions and Documents and all the rest of stuff and it very clearly becomes a matter of who you

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Get to choose to put the most weight on when you're reading the quote -unquote tradition the

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Roman Catholic Church And that just isn't good for anybody. So I'm concerned that there's going to be a

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Some pressure Put on some Janice to to not do this now some Janice is going to resist that pressure because this is that's not

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Bob Bob's once Bob has said hey anytime anyplace, right, you know, I think

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I think it would have to be pressure from The church itself. I think you know some priest or bishop who's sort of representing at least the local diocese

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Would have to call him up and say, you know You know, we just don't want to give any, you know, free air time to these phoeniates and these

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City of a contest and blah blah blah blah and I can see that happening. I can

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I mean he just recently Sorry did the mea culpa thing on his all his Jewish statements so he could remain a a good faithful follower of the the curious so Hello.

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Well, we'll see. We'll see what happens. I think it'd be very very interesting Well before we get to any of the things

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I have queued up. We have a number of folks who have called in Already so let's get some phone calls under our belt and then continue on.

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Let's talk with Stephen. Hi Stephen Hello, Stephen, how are you? Doing good.

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Good. I have a question for you and I Kind of I'm gonna try and simplify it as best

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I can and you can expound on it from believer in the Trinity Would you please expound on the use of?

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Carry often stay off in relation to God the Father and The Lord Jesus Christ, it seems to me.

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Here's my second part that Lord, which obviously was used in the Old Testament for the

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Tetragrammaton if Let me see Basically, it seems like the father and correct me wrong is rarely if ever called

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Lord He's obviously called God and Jesus Christ is predominantly called

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Lord There are theological reasons or implications that might be overlooked as to why?

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One was consistently called God and the other was consistently called Lord that have heavy theological implications as to identity

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Yeah two resources immediately that I would Recommend to your reading if they've not been a part of your reading the past we offer a classic work from the past By Benjamin Breckenridge Warfield also known as BB Warfield called the

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Lord of Glory and Warfield's work on the Trinity is just unparalleled.

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I've gained so much From his work on on the subject of the Trinity and and he has an excellent discussion of a similar

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In a similar vein as that which you will find in the book called God crucified Don't that's by Richard Balcom Who also has in in Balcom's book is a quotation from NT right now?

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Everybody goes NT right well NT right has actually done some good work in certain areas and This is another area that he's actually done some decent work on and and Balcom as well and all of those

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Warfield Balcom and right all Look at probably the the classic classicus locus the the classical passage on this very issue

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Which is found 1st Corinthians chapter 8 and They I think it's

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Balcom that identifies 1st Corinthians 8 6 as Sort of the the New Testament equivalent to the

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Shema if you're familiar with the Shema in Deuteronomy 6 Shema Yisrael Yahweh Eloheinu Yahweh Chad Here you have sort of the the

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Christian version of that Where Paul says yet for us there is but one

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God the father from whom were all things and we exist for him And one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things and we exist through him now very very clearly

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You can put those two phrases directly in parallel with one another where you have one

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God Underneath that the father and then the description from whom are all things and we exist for him then one

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Lord Underneath that Jesus Christ and then description by whom are all things and we exist through him now given the consistency of the fact that the

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New Testament self -consciously Accepts and confesses the

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Shema that there is but one God I mean, that's what you have at the very beginning of 8 6 since you have that then this is not

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I Realize Mormons abuse this text and some Christians have only really struggled with the text within the context of what things that Joseph Smith says

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I'm like that but leaving that aside because honestly Mormonism and polytheism really has no connection to the historic

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Christian faith until at least, you know the middle 1840s anyways, and and then it's just an adversarial one leaving that aside and recognizing the reality of The context of Paul's words here.

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We we do see it. This is probably at least an echo of a Representation of an early creedal statement similar to the

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Carmen Christi possibly a hymn fragment Things similar to saying no one can say

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Jesus Christ except for the Holy Spirit Right, and when you look at these parallels then You you see

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God being used of the father. They asked being is the father and courios clearly one courios one

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Yahweh Given Paul's own and the fact that Paul's not alone in this

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Peter does this John does this it's across the New Testament spectrum the

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Utilization of Old Testament texts that were uniquely about Yahweh being applied to Jesus We see

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I think probably the answer to part of your question regards the theological reason is found in the descriptive phrases in First Corinthians 8 6 that is from whom are all things and we exist for him in reference to the father and Then by whom are all things and we exist through him in reference to the courios

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Jesus Christ the I Believe that the majority of the reason for the differentiation of terminology between the awesome courios is in regards to Identification of the divine persons there has to be some means

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I mean it's difficult to be overly passionate about person one person two and person three

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It's and it's hard to it's hard to recognize the differences And so you you have not only the economic trinity that is the fact that the

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Father Son Spirit do different things and hence by Their activities are able to be are able to differentiate

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Between them and we see that they freely choose these roles in their in in the economic trinity

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But also in in this text we have a differentiation between the father and the son the father is the fountainhead from whom are all things and the son is the expression of that that divine wisdom and that eternal decision that eternal decree by whom are all things and then

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We exist for him for the father, and then we exist through him through the son now no monotheist

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No monotheistic Jew Could have ever read these words and either can't come up with die theism or try theism or something like that They would have to recognize that that the one

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Yahweh of the Old Testament It would be from whom by whom

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We exist for him and through him all those would be descriptive of the one

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Yahweh of the Old Testament but what you have in the incarnation is a

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Not it not so much a brighter light, but a more Differentiated light being cast upon who

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Yahweh is and how he has expressed himself now as father son Holy Spirit I used to use many many moons ago back when

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I was very skinny and had hair and very big glasses I had a friend of mine at the church.

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We were at build me a little box. I still have it I could go in the other room and still grab it It's it's ugly, but it's still there and I on on the one side of the box was a single white light

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And what I would do in class is I would turn off the overhead lights And I would turn on this little box. There was only one light inside the box was a black a plastic box

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We got at Radio Shack and on the one side you'd only see white light But then when

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I would turn the box around I would explain in the Old Testament We see is one God and the the attributes that emphasize his unity

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Over against the polytheistic religions of the world in the Old Testament so on so forth and I'd emphasize all that Then I'd say then you have really the proof of the

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Trinity and this is something Warfield says The proof of the Trinity is the incarnation of Christ. This is

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Where truly the the the rubber meets the road this is where Christ comes he differentiates himself from the

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Father. He speaks of sending the Holy Spirit. There is a differentiation that is made and Yet you have him saying these things that no

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Mere creature could ever say and this is where you get, you know in Paul They would not have crucified the

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Lord of Glory you think about that phrase Crucified the Lord of Glory how How is that possible?

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Unless you have what we believe about Jesus Christ being God and man And so I turn the box around and on the other side of the box

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We still have the one it's only one light that is that is in that in that box. But now you have a

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Differentiation where you see red and you see green and you see blue and they've been they've been

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Broken out so that you can see Where they are now if you know anything about light, you know that you're still seeing the same one white light

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In fact, if I were to take that light and I were to have a proper prism I could reunite the red the green the blue back into just one white light but because the incarnation because of the

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Revelation New Testament you are able to make have differentiation between What you saw before when you were looking at the white light you were seeing red green and blue but your eyes could not make the kind of differentiation that You would have for example if you had a prism which breaks it up into its constituent elements

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And so I explained this is what the incarnation and the writings of New Testament provide to us. We have not changed

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There's only one light that's been on from the time that I hit the switch It has not changed but what we are able to see of that light has changed because the greater clarity of the

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Revelation that has been given to us and So I believe that the reason that there is a consistency in the use especially in Paul But pretty much throughout the

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New Testament of they asked for the father and courteous for the son Is to aid us in this this recognition because remember the earliest heresies in the early church

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Were either in regards to a denial the physical nature of Jesus Or a denial of the distinction between the father and the son

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Modalism was was the great early heresy even before Arianism came along and in fact

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One of the reasons that there was even the controversy there was at the Council of Nicaea was because that term homoous us

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Suggested to the Eastern Church, which had first struggled primarily with those people who are trying to make the father and the son one person that term had been used by the modalists and so they were afraid that utilization of that term could lead to Misunderstandings and to a resurgence of a heresy they had already fought so I think the differentiation is there for exactly that that reason avoid confusion for the

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For the Gentiles was the Jew so it didn't come across the two gods were being preached because obviously for the monotheistic

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Jew he deck obviously the father is the Lord now when we talk about Jesus Lord is in Yahweh Well, especially given the context of which

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Lord is used where it's frequently being drawn straight out of the Greek Septuagint translation Where it was used of Yahweh. There's there's no way to avoid that.

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But yeah, there is that concern because clearly John for example is very very concerned about certain possibilities of misunderstandings in regards to identification of Jesus and the father and things like that and so they the

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People who don't recognize the apologetic context of the New Testament and how often the

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Apostles express concern about sound doctrine and about and about Responding to those who are perverting

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Christian truth are just completely missing the rather Confrontational and and warfare like context the early church.

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I mean they were constantly in battle I mean even look at you know, look at the epistles of John There's there's the clear evidence that there is this constant concern about these very issues.

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And so they're trying to Make these differentiations clear. And so yeah, I think you're on the on the right track there

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And I think it's an excellent excellent question. Hopefully useful to everybody who is who was listening today All right, thank you

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Stephen god bless Whoo. All right it's gonna I can tell us give me an interesting morning because I'm doing two hours straight up and This is this is going to be interesting.

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Let's go with Benjamin. Hi Benjamin. Yes. Yes, sir Be there.

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Yes, sir. Okay. Thank you for taking my call. Dr. Why yes, sir. I was going to ask about the nature of idolatry and Particularly in relation to a particular an example you gain from Scripture that is a bit problematic for me

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According to Galatians 5 1st Corinthians 6 Paul teaches that those who are idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God and So I'm assuming that you and he says of course in 1st

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Corinthians 6 that and such were some of you But you were washed now, you know, you've been sanctified Justified in the name of the

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Lord Jesus Christ. So we would assume that Idolaters given perseverance of the Saints are not

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Right now as idolaters, they're not Saved they're not

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Christians you know, and that doesn't mean that we understand what Paul is specifically speaking about to the extent of idolatry and all the rest because of course every

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Christian is Idolatrous at times. Well and covetous is covetousness is even identified as idolatry and certainly we've all experienced that So yes, okay, right.

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So I'm not trying to in other words You know force or I guess the word might be impute a certain meaning to those terms yet But I just wanted to ask you we also know however that Solomon at the end of his life was

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Rather easily identifiable by Scripture as an idolater. Mm -hmm, but we don't believe that he was lost

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So, how did those two? for you How are they related in such a way that they're consistent with each other?

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Well, I don't know the state of Solomon You know, it's interesting

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Muslim writers reject all of Islam rejects the Bible's testimony to Solomon's idolatry because they don't believe that a

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Prophet of God could ever fall into that kind of a thing and and that's because they're very concerned that the nature of the prophet

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Is all tied up in that which he reveals and the fact the matter is that's that's not a biblical understanding at all

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That's The the message itself can sometimes be well Look at Caiaphas who prophesized concerning the death of Christ in John chapter 11 and Caiaphas is hardly someone that we would identify as a godly a saintly man, so I don't

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I would not Claim to have any knowledge concerning the final end of Solomon And I think it's difficult to create much light in a discussion of theological concepts based upon assumptions about Who's you know where somebody went when we're not told anything about where anybody went?

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We're not really given much ground to make speculations about that It's sort of like when people get on to the

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Judas kick and for some reason people just there's just some folks that really want to send Judas off to heaven for some reason even though he's a son of perdition, so That's really an odd one

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But I think the the answer to the to the question really is is the same as almost any sin whether it be idolatry or Any other of those that are that are listed in in the

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New Testament is it's the difference between the practice and that which marks the nature of the unregenerate man and that of the regenerate person where there is a

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Hatred for sin or repentance from sin and issues like that Unless your whole question is well since all we're told is that Solomon experienced this and we're not told anything beyond that so we therefore

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Assume this is the state in which he died Would that not then mean this if it's that then then

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I don't know that there's really much of an answer to that because I don't believe we can assume those things, but if it's more toward the the area of well, what about Remaining sin abiding sin

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What about sins that we that we really struggle with and I think every every individual believer

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Has those range of sins that are the most attractive? to him or to her

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There are people who who really really really struggle with with anger. There are people who really really struggle with sexual sins

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More so than somebody else. I mean there are there are people Honestly, you can just you can look at them if anyone's been in in ministry very long

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You can see that there are some people who just struggle horribly with a certain kind of sin

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But that very same person has almost no temptation Toward another aspect of sin that the person sitting in the pew behind them struggles with all the time and it's it's a little bit like the the homosexual issue and that is that people say well

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People can have a predilection toward that. Well, let's let's say that's true. There are people clearly

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I know people who have a predilection toward anger they have a predilection toward arrogance or a predilection toward pride or or or impatience or whatever else it might be and It doesn't change the fact that we are called to Struggle and to fight against those things to make use of the means of grace given to us

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And that our goal is to be Christlike and we need to take serious stock of ourselves

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And know ourselves so that we can for example Make plans to avoid going to those places or exposing ourselves those things that are going to directly address the temptation that we know is the temptation that we struggle with and that we are most likely to fall to and so that involves discipline that involves the development of a heart of wisdom and And all those things related to growth in the grace and knowledge of the

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Lord Jesus Christ and so that's that's the only way I can answer the question is that yes, there are those who have a predilection

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Towards certain things and the only question really that I can ask of such a person

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Is do they truly love those things or is there a true concern on their part?

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About the mortification of the flesh the putting to death those desires are they are they seeking

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To to do what is right before God in those things or are they apathetic about those things they're apathetic about those things

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There's there's great danger there. There is great reason to question Well, this person truly knows what it is to to name the name of Christ and has truly experienced that heart -changing act called regeneration

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Apathy towards sin is always a bad thing. But the the person who tends to be extremely introspective and I have met a few

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At times needs to be encouraged to look beyond himself and look to Christ at those points They're not the they're not the

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Norman in my pastoral experience Those are not the normative folks the normative folks if there's going to be one or the other side

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It's much more sadly in our society toward the apathetic side than it is to the overly compunctious side shall we say along those lines, so I'm not sure if that addresses your issue, but That's how

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I would understand the question. So then things like when first Kings 11 So that Solomon turned away his heart after other gods and that he went after Ashtoreth and he went after Milcom the abomination of the

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Ammonites things like that. He made God angry He did what was evil in the sight of the Lord Those things would not be equivalent to what

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Paul was speaking of when he said that idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God Well again, we don't know what happened to Solomon.

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That's the point is we're not given sufficient information We know there are a number of kings of Israel Who at times in their lives?

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Engaged in idolatry and we know thankfully that some repented We don't have information about all of them.

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I'm just simply saying To try to make that kind of a judgment in regards to Solomon.

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There's nothing in Christian theology It says Solomon had to go to heaven So if Solomon remained in that state, it would be a very very sobering

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Example of the fact that God can use someone and even use someone to give them great wisdom

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But if that great wisdom does not translate into a consistent pattern of behavior All it does is increase one's one's judgment, but I have no way of knowing

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Because we're not told the the exact state in which Solomon ended his life and Certainly, we know that there were

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Israelite Kings who engaged in those activities and they were forgiven by God when they repented. So Could Solomon have repented?

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Yes Do we know don't therefore no way of answering the question because it's assuming that we have information that we don't have if he died

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Then yeah, I would think that it would it would apply to what Paul was saying, but if he didn't and we don't know so If he died in that state then he never had been a

33:56

Christian Never had been faithful to God and then we would have had a lost person who had written inspired texts of Scripture Well Balaam's donkey actually gave us inspired texts of Scripture.

34:08

So again, it's not the nature of the person Through whom the message comes that determines the validity of the message

34:15

It is the Spirit of God that brings that message that Determines the validity of that message.

34:21

So I mean there are all sorts of folks in the Old Testament I mean think about it.

34:26

We don't even know who wrote entire sections the Old Testament so it couldn't be That we are able to somehow validate it based upon well

34:36

We examine this person's life discovered. He was he was cool. And and therefore that's that's where Scripture comes from. So no, but again, this is it's speculation speculation and It you can't take it too much farther than that.

34:50

All right. All right. Thank you for your call, sir Is it okay if I ask something? I've got another got a whole bunch calls today and I haven't gotten to it.

34:59

So we'll try to do one other time Thank you, Benjamin. All right, bye -bye All right, let's press on here because I did want to get to at least one section here today

35:07

Let's talk with Bill. Hi Bill. How you doing? Yeah, hello bill.

35:13

Oh, hello. It cut you out on me. All right. I didn't hear you asking. Hey Quick question.

35:20

You remember me, correct? I believe so. Yes. Yes. Anyway the This question the question

35:27

I got actually is kind of an add -on question to another thing because You have a lot of books.

35:33

You do not have one. At least I'm aware of about the word faith movement. Nope and Could you give it just a quick 30 -second synopsis of your view of the movement?

35:44

well, you know, I Am NOT one of those apologists that that feels any

35:54

Necessary need to claim expertise on all movements back in the 1980s

36:01

I did a series there was a fellow that we came across who had a lot of information.

36:06

We did a series I think it may have even been on the dividing line On the word faith stuff and I picked up some of Copeland and Hagen stuff and things like that But be honest with you.

36:15

I haven't read anything by a word faith guy in 20 years. And so it's not my area It's sort of like Eastern Orthodoxy Hinduism Buddhism Not your man what

36:26

I would have to say About the word faith movement would have no more validity than Anybody else who has my background and ministers in a church?

36:37

So what I'm saying is yeah, I mean, obviously I reject the word faith movement I reject the whole idea that that our words create reality

36:45

I remember we did I forget why we were having some open houses I recall over on 16th

36:50

Street and we were doing a radio program and this guy called in during the radio program and He was talking about how

36:58

He had claimed a Corvette in the name of Jesus and he had gone to the showroom and marched around at seven times

37:04

I couldn't help but thinking boy, it would be rather interesting if if the

37:10

Security guys had gotten all this fellas marching on the Corvette But and he was all proud of the fact that that he had named it.

37:17

He had claimed that he had gotten it I remember going after him going Yeah Last time you gave a dime to your church because you're probably so tapped out now on your car payments and your insurance payments

37:26

You don't have a dime to give to anything Lord would have you do I went after him big -time and so obviously when

37:33

I look at what we see today and in the various manifestations of that word faith movement you've got it you've got to you know differentiate between are we talking the classical stuff the the

37:45

Daddy caps and and Copeland and Hagen and those guys are we talking about the more?

37:51

I don't know popularized version of that that has has become so huge today on on TBN.

37:58

That's Is not quite as it focused upon this whole idea of Jesus death in in in his you know spiritual death and is all the

38:08

The things that Copeland used to teach about becoming little gods and Adam and all that stuff

38:14

They've some of it that's been lost the the external part stays the same As far as the promises of prosperity and blah blah blah blah

38:23

And none of it ever wants to admit the fact that the Bible talks about suffering as being key

38:29

In sanctification the sense of following the footsteps of Christ. I want to talk to anything about that But it's it's hard to today for me

38:38

To know exactly where a Paula White for example stands in that spectrum

38:44

Because I just I don't pay any attention to it You know I mean other than you know noting some of the stuff that I saw last week about her divorce

38:53

And and then some prophetess Juanita Bynum, and what happened with her and stuff I don't know exactly where they stand in regards those key issues of Christ spiritual death whether we can become gods whether faith is a force that we control their tongues blah blah blah blah

39:07

I just don't keep up with that stuff Okay, well The big reason

39:12

I was asking because what still seems to be out there is the emphasis they have

39:18

Jesus literally becoming sin and They use the argument out of 2nd

39:23

Corinthians 521, which was what I was calling about Basically Wallace and his grammar doesn't really address it at all

39:32

I That is speaking as a mentonym correct well

39:40

It says for he made him who knew no sin in our behalf in It's literally for the one not knowing sin in our behalf a good substitutionary term who pair him own

39:54

How marty on a poise and he made him to be sin in our behalf so it's the in our behalf

40:00

That determines the nature of what the being made sin is and Just as we then it says in order that we

40:09

Might become the righteousness of God in him now that the nature of Jesus is not changed from Deity into sin any more than our nature is changed from sin into righteousness

40:23

This is an imputational issue. This is a a Forensic legal issue and it has to do with substitution

40:29

And it has to do with one bearing the punishment of another the whole idea of attempting to tie that into What's the old guys the the guys that they see it's been so long now that they borrowed all this from Exactly Kenyon there's there's nothing in in in the text if we understand

40:49

Paul's theology And it's Paul's doctrine of justification imputation if we go to Romans 4 we look at Romans 4 6 through 8 and text like that to to Disconnect what

41:01

Paul is saying here from what he says the Romans and this this idea of substitution so Just as as God treated

41:10

Christ in such a way that he can bear our Punishment for the sins that we commit in the same way we have imputed to us

41:22

The righteousness of Christ so he can treat us and we can have peace with him. That's what the the great exchange here is it's not this this ontological argumentation that in essence says there's some kind of a a change of the very nature of Christ because honestly that would require us to embrace the

41:39

Roman Catholic concept of an infusion of grace and a change of our nature to where we

41:45

Intrinsically become pleasing to God and that's why we go to heaven That's the whole issue that goes back to Reformation and whether Luther actually said this or not

41:53

We don't know but the the pile of dung thing. It's certainly attributed to Luther It certainly is consistent with Luther's theology

41:59

Where he's trying to differentiate between no, we don't the reason we go to heaven is not because we have been intrinsically

42:06

Made pleasing to God and therefore there's something that forces God to take us to heaven Instead you have the righteousness of Christ which covers us then the transformation of that pile of dung is what sanctification is about but it's not what justification is about in Roman Catholicism the reason the pile of dung goes to heaven is because it's changed from pile of dung in a pile of gold and Gold is pleasing to God.

42:27

So gold is going to go to heaven and that in essence is what what you'd have to embrace to to buy into that concept but they're they're missing the whole point of of what the assertion is in regards to the nature of imputation and the nature of substitution

42:42

One one point that they would argue with you on and I've come across this recently is why I called you about it

42:48

Well one thing that they would argue is that well the word imputation is not in 2nd

42:55

Corinthians 521, but of course it is in verse 19. So it is in the context. Yeah, it's in the context and it's and it's understood

43:03

Certainly when Paul writes to the Church of Corinth, especially we get the 2nd Corinthians, which is probably like 3rd

43:08

Corinthians This is he can assume a certain level of knowledge on their part in light of his

43:15

Having been amongst them having taught amongst them having taught before And so, you know, you can say well the terms not there fine not who pair him own is there and You have the kaya soon a there and he just gonna throw those things out and rip them out of the context which

43:32

Paul's used Them before of course not So yeah No one's going to accuse the word faith teachers of really having much of a context

43:41

In which they're they're operating and doing serious definition of exegesis and things like that.

43:46

Well, that's true They're they're they're real good with the illegitimate totality Yes, all right, well you play with Richard Hayes No, the

43:58

Greek scholar. Okay. No, then then nothing else has to say will matter. All right. Thank you, sir. Thank you

44:03

All right, let's put it Alrighty. Well, there's a wide range of questions I'm hoping the questions on iron sharpens iron if we get any or On Roman Catholicism.

44:16

That'll make it a little bit easier in the second hour of the of the

44:23

Marathon here I what I wanted to do and I'm not I'm not gonna be able to get very far here Because we only have 15 minutes left in the program actually less than that.

44:31

Ah I was riding again. Yes, indeed. I was riding again, and I decided to throw

44:39

Some good old Akhmed D dot on my on my iPod shuffle, which

44:45

I use now and It's a little lighter than my other iPod units when you're out 40 miles that makes a difference when it only weighs an ounce anyway,

44:55

I Listened to a presentation that just I Decided I wanted to share it with you all even though it's painful to do so And the reason why

45:06

I share it with you is Akhmed D dot remains probably the single most viewed and listened to Islamic scholar slash apologist in Certainly in the

45:20

English -speaking world, but D dot traveled the world. He went everywhere especially

45:27

South Africa He he spoke that he spoke of Afrikaner He went through the

45:36

Arab world. He's still probably the most recognized listen to Lecturer on Islam and the vast majority of Muslims continue to believe that D dot just blew away everybody debated he didn't but he certainly blew away enough of them and The thing is when you listen to D dot now though any

46:00

Muslims listening are going to be offended here Please be please differentiate between appropriate offense and an inappropriate offense

46:11

It is my assertion that D dot was a showman He was not in any way shape or form a scholar his the scholarly level of his material is pathetic it is pathetic and I've documented this before if I had never taken the time to play

46:24

D dot before and Point out his many errors in the biblical languages and think translational issues

46:30

Then I really wouldn't have a ground to say that But I have and you can go back and listen to those and I'll document it and what we're gonna play now as well but he was a showman and I could summarize honestly,

46:46

I think there's about about half an hour presentation here where D dot presents his assertion that John chapter 16 contains a prophecy

47:00

Muhammad in the Bible now he did bring up one element of this that that I think you should hear and You might want to go.

47:11

Well, how would I respond to that? Because sometimes if you just never heard an argument before In the in the in the speed of debate you maybe sometimes say things you don't necessarily want to say or you'd like to take back later

47:26

It's always good to hear these things because again, this is the guy that people are listening to and So I want to play this but but I honestly could could summarize accurately and without really missing anything

47:39

Everything he's gonna say in the next half hours worth of stuff Which obviously we're gonna stop before, you know, stop at the end the hour and have to continue this later

47:47

But I could summarize it. I Can name that tune in four notes, you know,

47:57

I could summarize that half -hour presentation in 90 seconds I really could

48:03

I mean I could give a full complete presentation of his entire argument in 90 seconds what took him half an hour and That was part of D dots magic was that he was a showman and you see his material stunk

48:21

So he had to do something with his material to make it unstink So you had to put in a whole lot of perfume a whole lot of show a whole lot of oh

48:30

Look at the shiny object over there To keep people from really focusing upon the fact that you know What this man does not have much to say on a scholarly level and he didn't and he still doesn't

48:41

But when people hear the tone of voice and it's a very dismissive tone of voice I mean,

48:46

I mean this guy couldn't get through half an hour without attacking Christianity and in pretty

48:52

Straightforward and as a Christian very offensive fashions. That's just the way he is but His his body language and his constant smile and and his his imposing presence all came together to in essence present a a

49:10

Show to people and so what could have been said in 90 seconds Takes half an hour and by the time you get to the end

49:19

It sounds like he's made a compelling argument when if he had actually made it shorter suits

49:24

You could actually see all the constituent parts and see how they relate to one another.

49:30

It wouldn't look very good at all See how that works We need to we need to be able to recognize these methodologies.

49:38

This is the showman methodology this is the the how to make a really bad point, but make it so slowly that it sounds good and That's what he does so I want to start here what he's what he's going to be doing is

49:52

He's going to be starting with boy if we covered a wide range of things in the That I tell you there aren't too many programs you can listen to where you get the the range of stuff that we've covered today but from magnetics and syngenous to an in -depth discussion of Theos and Korea's and Testament to idolatry and Solomon to word faith and now to Ahmed D dot and now a quotation from the

50:17

Quran, isn't that great? Interesting stuff, but he starts off what he's going to be referring to is surah 61 6 and surah 61 6 says and Remember when

50:31

Isa that's Jesus the son of Miriam said Oh children of Israel I am the rasool of Allah towards you confirming the

50:38

Torah that came before me and To give you good news of a rasool that will come after me whose name shall be

50:45

Ahmed That's another name for Muhammad by the way But when he Ahmed came to them with clear signs, they said this is plain magic

50:54

Now isn't it interesting? another parallel between Muhammad and Joseph Smith jr

51:01

Folks who start their own religions have to find some way of inserting prophecies about themselves

51:07

Into the pre -existing scriptures that they give any credence to at all And so Joseph Smith added an entire chapter in essence to the book of Genesis that had everything to do with himself and here

51:19

Muhammad puts into the words into the mouth of Jesus a Prophecy of his own coming now, by the way

51:25

I've noticed that there is this and and care certainly has picked up on it today. There is this idea where where Muslims Can be offended by anything

51:35

Christians say including when Christians say Jesus is the Son of God even that's what we've always believed May I point out that's offensive to me for a man to come along six hundred years after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and Put into my

51:50

Lord's mouth words. He never spoke There's not the slightest bit of evidence that he ever said anything like this at all and to do so just to to make my

52:02

Lord Submit to and become a testifier of somebody else's supreme prophet hood in the person of Muhammad If it if if it's become the big thing to be offended by that since I happen to believe

52:15

Jesus is God then to put words in God's mouth like that is blasphemy of the highest order and is extremely offensive and hence by the way on any

52:26

Logical level would be much more offensive than any cartoon you could ever draw of a human prophet

52:33

But see no one allows that because you're a Christian and your opinions do not count in Western society any longer

52:40

So having said that now remember if it's it's been a while since we've played

52:45

D -Dot We're only gonna get a couple of minutes of him here D -Dot is hard to listen to if you've got something if you got music playing someplace else

52:54

If you've got the TV on D -Dot's gonna sound like this wow wow wow wow wow it's gonna be the

52:59

Charlie Brown thing All right D -Dot's accent is thick Once you tune into him he's easy to follow

53:06

But there's literally a need for you to concentrate to be able to follow what he's saying okay, so let's listen to Ahmed D -Dot

53:18

And the verse it's a one verse these are different phrases I'm using from the last phrase what will

53:24

Bashir and be the sooty yuppie Ahmed and giving glad tidings good news of a messenger to come after me whose name shall be

53:33

Ahmed Other another name for Muhammad Now we are searching in the

53:40

Christian scriptures, and we don't find the name Ahmed, and we don't find the name Muhammad So when we tell them it's a look the

53:48

Quran says this is the could they actually lie to the Quran Muhammad was lying So we have to find out we have to search

53:57

And in this research I have come across a verse versus Words of Jesus that when we analyze those verses we find

54:09

The fulfillment of this expression also that he did prophesy the coming of a somebody after him

54:16

Which we say was Ahmed or Muhammad Where do we find that?

54:24

We find that in the Gospel of Saint John chapter 16 verse 7

54:31

It says Nevertheless I tell you the truth it is expedient for you that I go away

54:41

It is necessary that I go away for if I go not away the comforter will not come unto you

54:47

But if I go I will send him the comforter will not come unto you, but if I go

54:55

I will send him John 16 7 Now the word there is comforter

55:05

Some translations say advocate some say counselor That's all in English But we know that Jesus Christ didn't speak

55:17

English Or did he? Then we take the

55:24

Bible of the ruling race of Africana brethren in Afrikaans and in Afrikaans It says my exile at the bar hate

55:36

Nevertheless I tell you the truth it is by yellow Further that it was harm that it is expedient for you that I go away one does it me where?

55:46

I'm me so the thruster me my eloquence me for me Matters it was fun.

55:55

So let's call my illustrious use the word through a step through a step the thruster obviously

56:07

You obviously speaking in South Africa this We take the

56:15

Zulu Bible I know you didn't speak Zulu When we take the

56:22

Arabic Bible is that more at this? More as if he didn't speak Arabic And you carry on there are 2 ,000 different languages in which the

56:32

Bible is to be found today 2 ,000 and 2 ,000 different names Imagine 2 ,000 different names every

56:38

Bible different word every Bible different word. We want to know what did he say? Did he say competent did he say thruster?

56:46

This is an apology. He is a Nazi. What did he say? Now I need to go to the next next sound file which

56:55

I have queued up here, but What is he said so far? He's he's read from surah 61 he says here in surah 61 that Jesus said about the coming of Muhammad, but we don't find

57:11

Ahmed or Muhammad in the Bible and so where Why is that and now he's going to John 16?

57:18

He's gonna make the argument that this is Muhammad being prophesied in the Bible But how long has he taken just to get to that point so far?

57:25

What he's doing it. He's impressing people. He can read Afrikaan. Oh, okay good And he just read from Zulu and notice there's always this subtle thing 2 ,000

57:35

Bibles and and now he's gonna say Christians actually having have a disease. Listen, listen what he says here

57:42

The Christians have developed a sickness a sickness a sickness of changing translating names of people

57:51

Which you have no right to do You have no right to translate people's name a proper name in the proper name beat

57:59

I didn't need that you can you know, I said I'll do that in Africa Mm -hmm What he's saying there is that we have the sickness of translating names

58:08

See and what he's he's gonna what what he's eventually trying to get to just to let you know ahead of time

58:14

Is that paraclete the comforter is? supposed to be

58:20

Paracletus the exalted one which is Ahmed which is Muhammad. That's what he's trying to get to It's gonna take him half an hour to get there and the journey is his argument

58:31

That's what we need to see we'll continue with this next time in the dividing line a week from today Lord willing Those who happen to in Toronto.

58:38

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59:34

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