March 7, 2017 Show with Ryan McGraw on “Knowing The Trinity: Practical Thought for Daily Life” (continued today with a special emphasis on the Person & Work of the HOLY SPIRIT)

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, We are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with, and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday On this seventh day of March 2017, and I am delighted to have back on the program somebody who has quickly become one of my favorite guests, and that's

Ryan McGraw. He's professor of systematic theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.

He's the author of The Day of Worship, Reassessing the Christian Life in Light of the

Sabbath by Good and Necessary Consequence, and we are discussing a new book, hot off the press through the

Alliance of Convessing Evangelicals, Knowing the Trinity, Practical Thought for Daily Life.

This is actually another part of our discussion, part two,

I think at least, and we are focusing our attention this time on the person and work of the

Holy Spirit. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Ryan McGraw.

Thank you, Chris. It's good to be with you again, brother. It's good to be with you too, and in studio with me are two men that you know very well.

We have Pastor Matt Purdy, who is senior pastor of Carlisle Reform Presbyterian Church, which is a congregation within the

Presbyterian Church in America here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and also his assistant pastor, your father -in -law,

Pastor Deckard Stevens. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both in the studio for the very first time,

Pastor Matt Purdy and Pastor Deckard Stevens. Thank you, Chris. It's good to be here, and hello, Ryan. Hey, Ryan.

And first of all, Pastor Matt Purdy, since you are on the program for the very first time ever, after you know me asking multitudes of times, we finally have the privilege of having you on Iron Sharpens Iron.

I'm so delighted about that. Now I have had every Reformed pastor in Carlisle on my show.

And if you could, tell us something about your own personal background, what the

Lord providentially brought about in your life to bring you to salvation, and then ultimately to the

Reformed faith in the pastorate. Sure. Well, I had the merciful privilege of being raised in a

Christian home. My parents both know and love Jesus Christ and taught me to know and love

Christ from earliest days. I grew up in a non -denominational church that was a gospel -believing, gospel -preaching church, but not

Reformed in its doctrine. And it was really early on when

I made a profession of faith in Christ and was baptized, but not until later years of high school and into college when

I really began to seek the Lord and read the Word and grow in grace, in particular in the college years, which is actually when

I first started to attend a PCA church, the denomination I now serve in. And the

Lord used that time in college really to draw me closer to Himself and also grow in my heart a desire to serve

Him in the pastoral ministry, which landed me eventually at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte after getting married to my wife

Kristen. And we spent three years down there for me to get a Master of Divinity. And then the

Lord called me to be an assistant pastor in Richmond, Virginia, at a

PCA church for about six years, and then led us up here to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, about four years ago.

So I've been serving as the solo pastor of this church for the last four years. And in God's great mercy,

He called Deckard here as well to be the assistant pastor. So it's been a wonderful four years here.

Carlisle's a wonderful place. The church, the members of the church are wonderful people. They are receptive of the

Word of God, and it's just a great privilege to be able to preach it and minister it to them in public and in private.

And to do that now along with Deckard. Amen. And Deckard Stevens, if any of our listeners have been listening as long as going back to 2015, they may recognize the name

Deckard Stevens because he was a guest on this program already. It was on October 2, 2015, and he was discussing his book,

Conflict and Triumph, by William Henry Green, and how it reflected and aided him in his own trial with cancer, which, thanks be to God, he had victory over.

But it's an honor and privilege to have you in the studio, Pastor Deckard, your second time on the program, but the first time in the studio.

Thank you, Chris. It's a joy to be back with you, and looking forward to the program and being able to interact with my son -in -law.

Amen. And if you could briefly do the same as Pastor Matt did, give our listeners an abbreviated version of your testimony and how you came to be the assistant pastor here in Carlisle.

Well, I had quite an interesting and checkered experience or journey.

I grew up in the Episcopal church and never really heard the gospel, never really understood my need of a redeemer and a savior.

But in God's providence, we were removed from the

Episcopal denomination, and I went through a series of churches, a number of charismatic churches and Church of God of Prophecy and Southern Baptists.

And in God's mercy, I stumbled into a Presbyterian church one

Sunday morning, and it just really changed everything.

It sounded like a Calvinist evolution chart. But I met a pastor who took me under his wings immediately and began to teach me and pray with me and just disciple me.

And step by step, the Lord called me into the ministry. I served for the past 27 1⁄2 years as the pastor of Calvary Presbyterian Church, a

PCA congregation in Greenville, South Carolina. Was there for 62 years of my previous life.

And in God's providence, he called me up here to Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And so I'm excited about the opportunity to minister here and looking forward to God's kingdom being extended and his glory being exalted as a result.

Amen. And I remember the first time I had heard about you was seeing a video that the

Banner of Truth conducted of an interview with you regarding your love for the book

Conflict and Triumph by William Henry Greene and how it was a very powerful tool in the

Lord's hand to guide you through this journey of cancer. And you're cancer -free right now, correct?

Since 2000, so praise be to the Lord. Praise God. Well, I also want to give the website for Carlisle Reformed Presbyterian Church if anybody listening is either living in the area or caring to visit at some point.

Dickinson College is right here, so a lot of people do visit from all over the United States, in fact, all over the world.

The website is carlislepca .org, C -A -R -L -I -S -L -E -P -C -A for Presbyterian Church in America dot org.

Well, our guest today, as I mentioned, is Ryan McGraw, and we are discussing again his book

Knowing the Trinity with a special focus on the person and work of the

Holy Spirit. And Ryan, it seems to me that I find it kind of interesting that there will be people who will attend a

Reformed church and because very often they are more traditional, not always, but very often they're more traditional, they're more staid and reverent in their worship and so on.

People have left the worship services and said, the Spirit just isn't there.

I just don't like that place because I don't feel the Holy Spirit. The irony is that the doctrines of sovereign grace have a more powerful role of the

Holy Spirit in the lives of every Christian, I'm sure you'd agree, because we don't even believe that a person can offer a faith to God in order to become a born -again

Christian, as the Arminian Ordo Salutis would have us believe, that we in our sinfulness and unregenerate state can offer a faith to Christ that saves us.

We who are Reformed believe that even that initial step of coming to faith in Christ is all owed to the debt of the

Holy Spirit miraculously regenerating in us. Isn't that true? Yeah, it is.

And maybe as we're entering into the subject and dealing with the Trinity and specifically the

Holy Spirit, I should mention, as Bob Brady at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals asked me to do, that I no longer have to speak of the book in the future tense, because Bob said it is printed this week, so I can't say it has been published.

Another thing that Deckard probably doesn't know yet is that knowing the Trinity is dedicated to him as well as to my mother -in -law in thanksgiving for all the ways that ministered to my soul.

Praise God. Praise God. And that gives me a good lead -in to answer your question.

I'm a little devastated because they originally thought it was going to be dedicated to me, but anyway. I think

Deckard's higher up on the list than you are, brother. In more ways than one, even in God's eyes,

I think. Well, in terms of understanding the work of the

Holy Spirit in our Reformed churches, I think you're right to say that in many respects our theology itself pushes us to a very high view of the

Spirit, because we recognize that unless the Spirit first begins with us, we can't begin with God.

In other words, unless we're born again, we can't see the kingdom. And so the Spirit must come to us powerfully, usually through the ministry of the

Word, to open our hearts to receive Christ, to inflame our affections towards Him, to renew our wills in His service, ultimately to give birth to saving faith in us.

So Reformed theology inherently bolsters a devotional dependence on the powerful work of the

Spirit. The other side, however, is that sometimes in our

Reformed worship, perhaps when people come and say that in many of our churches people are a bit quiet and a bit reserved, there is some merit to the criticism, and I'm not saying in every case, but I think that there is an aspect that when we come together to sing our praises to the

Lord, we ought to sing with fervent hearts and loud voices.

We ought to do as the early church did, say our amens and our prayers, and as Tertullian describes the amens of the church, shaking the building and being heard down the street,

I think there's an aspect that we do need to express greater excitement in our worship.

Of course, pastors in their vigor and their preaching and showing a love for Christ and a passion for the things that they're speaking to.

And so we recognize on the one hand that we cannot equate the work of the

Spirit with all of the external pomp and splendor of worship or the seeming excitement of a charismatic service.

We need to build on a strong doctrinal foundation. But at the same time, the work of the

Spirit in our hearts, which stirs up our love for Christ, should make us excited about what we're doing, and that should express itself outwardly as well.

Amen. Yes, we above all Christians should be enthusiastic and joyful in our worship.

But sometimes, though, people have a superficial understanding of how that is supposed to be manifested, though.

I mean, obviously, people will equate the level of how much you are filled with the

Holy Ghost by how much you dance in the aisles at church and do somersaults and do all those kinds of things.

And that really has nothing to do with the level of indwelling of the

Holy Spirit that one may have. And wouldn't you say that although we should be exuberant and joyful in our worship, that we also should be reverent in our worship?

Our worship should be orderly, and we should be taking very seriously the

God whom we worship and the words that we are singing and the words that we are hearing in a sermon, correct?

Yes, and I think we could say in Scripture there are two general ways that we can describe someone who is filled with the

Holy Spirit. And if we begin with John 16, where Christ summarizes the work of the

Spirit as convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment in relation to Him, and in summary in verse 14 the

Spirit comes to glorify Him, we could say that the first mark of someone filled with the

Spirit is that a Spirit -filled man or woman is someone who is filled with love for Christ and who is convicted of sin in relationship to Christ, of righteousness because the

Father vindicated Christ as the righteous one, and of judgment because on the cross Christ judged the ruler of this world.

And then the second thing that would mark a man or woman that's filled with the Spirit would be personal godliness.

And I'm thinking here in terms of Galatians 5 where we read about the so -called fruit of the

Spirit that should permeate every aspect of the Christian life. So out of love for Christ and being filled with the fruits of the

Spirit, we really gain the real marks of what it means to be filled with the

Spirit. So in summary what I'm getting at is to be filled with the Spirit is to be filled with the graces of the

Spirit more than the gifts of the Spirit. So it's not external charismatic gifts that mark someone being filled with the

Spirit, but it's love for Christ and bearing fruits of godliness. And Deckard, you have a question or comment?

Well, I just had a comment that goes along with what Ryan is just talking about in Ephesians 5 where we have the imperative command be being filled with the

Holy Spirit. What does he follow that with but joyful worship, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

But then immediately it shows itself when wives submit to their husbands and husbands love their wives like Christ loved the church and sacrificed their desires for their wife and children obey their parents and servants are good servants to their masters.

I mean, it's uncanny. The practical nature of obedience is the mark of being filled with the

Spirit of God. Now one thing I immediately wanted to ask you, Deckard, knowing of the fact that you, on your journey through different theological perspectives along the spectrum of Christendom, you spent some time in the charismatic movement.

Now when you came to an understanding of Reformed theology, did you feel like you were embracing a lesser view of the

Spirit or a diminished view of the Holy Spirit in any way? Not really.

I want to be as gracious as I possibly can. But I saw through a lot of that charismatic influence.

It was a lot of feeling, a lot of emotion, not a lot of biblical content.

And when I came into the Presbyterian church, I was introduced immediately to what you mentioned just a little while earlier, balancing that enthusiasm of the

Spirit with reverence and seeing examples like Moses, who spoke with God face to face.

And yet when he met the Lord face to face at the burning bush, what did he do?

He fell on his face. John, on the Isle of Patmos, the apostle, when he is in the

Spirit on the Lord's Day and he sees Jesus, he doesn't stand and slap him on the back and say, oh, it's good to see you.

He falls on his face in reverent fear of God. And so learning the biblical emphases of reverence and godly fear as a work of grace in our hearts and true worship.

In fact, Pastor Purdy, I know that you spent a good deal of your life as a

Christian before you came to the doctrines of grace, correct? Correct. And wouldn't you say that the theologically reformed understanding of the

Spirit is far more powerful, infinitely more powerful than the

Holy Spirit depicted by Arminians and those of other faiths within Christendom?

Because our Holy Spirit saves every single person he intends to.

He regenerates every person he intends to and he keeps every person he intends to.

It's interesting how some Pentecostals who are five -point Arminians who believe that you could lose your salvation and some of the charismatic and Pentecostal congregations you'll have people going forward for salvation every week.

But it's interesting how they believe somebody can be physically healed by this Holy Spirit and yet the permanency of salvation is far more fragile in their minds.

Seems to be an irony there. But if you could tell us what your feelings about what I just said about the power of the

Holy Spirit. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And like Deckard said a minute ago, I would say

I want to be gracious to the church that I grew up in. The Lord did use that church and its pastor and its people, its members, in profound ways in my heart and life, many of which

I'm sure I don't even realize. But it was, I said non -denominational earlier, it was not a denominational affiliated church, but it was charismatic in its views on the gifts of the

Holy Spirit today, in particular speaking in tongues and working of miracles and such.

And I would say that even though there was a heavy emphasis on the

Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit, I appreciate Ryan's distinction that he made a few minutes ago between the gifts of the

Spirit and the graces of the Spirit, because that's one of the main differences in my own experience between the church

I grew up in and the denomination that I now serve in, and that is the church

I grew up in, the emphasis was primarily on the gifts of the Spirit, and particularly those sign gifts, we might call them, and not so much on the graces of the

Spirit. And I think that Ryan's reference to the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5 as one of the key evidences of a

Spirit -filled Christian, that has been my experience since being in a

Reformed denomination, a Reformed church, that the graces of the Spirit, that He works in our hearts and exhibits in our lives, that's a much more robust, full view of the work of the

Spirit than what I experienced in that charismatic church growing up. As grateful as I am for them.

Amen. And I'd like to let our listeners know our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

It's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And Ryan, as you know, many of the cults and aberrant religions that profess to be

Christian view the Holy Spirit merely as an it or a thing, not as a person of the

Godhead. They believe that the Holy Spirit is a divine force, the power of God, and so on.

And don't you think that unfortunately some of us who have an Orthodox creed that we may even believe in our minds tend to lapse into the way we view the

Holy Spirit even if unconsciously as merely a force and not a person of the Godhead? Well, it's certainly always possible to fall into practical errors in any area of theology even if we don't fall into doctrinal errors,

I mean. And in that respect, I think it helps us to go back to the

Scriptures and think about the Holy Spirit first as He relates to the

Father and the Son in Scripture and really how all three persons of the Godhead are working together particularly in our redemption.

And Ephesians 1 sets this before us succinctly and clearly in terms of all three persons working for our good and salvation.

But also in terms of the Spirit's personal work in the personal work of Christ.

And there's a lot that I could say there, but the Spirit is Christ's constant companion throughout every aspect of His life and in ministry.

And then Christ and His relationship to the Spirit becomes a pattern for ours.

And then as the Spirit works in and through us at every stage as we think about the revelation of the

Spirit's work in Scripture He's always personal as He relates to the Trinity, as He relates to the

Incarnate Christ, and then finally to us. So the best way to retain our personal dependence on the person of the

Spirit is to think about His overarching work. Also in this connection,

I can't resist one comment in relation to something Matt said that I found very helpful is dealing with this issue of the

Spirit at work in us personally and at work in us in cultivating personal godliness. It always strikes me that when you think about 1

Corinthians 12 -14 where the whole question revolves around the gifts of the Spirit Paul actually begins the discussion with a treatment of the work of the

Trinity. And he describes that it's by the Spirit of God that we confess

Jesus as Lord and that it's the one Spirit who gives believers their gifts and the same

God works in all. So you have an emphasis on confessing Christ by the Spirit under God and this is what unites us together.

And then the chapter on love in chapter 13, though we often cite it at weddings is actually

Paul's means of teaching us to prioritize the graces of the Spirit over the gifts of the

Spirit. So if I could tie that together with everything you just asked me we retain the personal work of the

Spirit by relating it to the Father and the Son the incarnate Christ and then to ourselves.

And as we depend upon Him personally, He works love in us and fosters godliness through love and then we can use our gifts correctly.

Amen. We're going to go to a break right now. In fact, I'm going to read you a question from a listener that we have in Slovenia and you can reflect on that even further during the break and answer the question when we return.

But Joe in Slovenia says, Please ask Pastor McGraw to address my deficiency in understanding an aspect of Ephesians 5 .18

and do not get drunk with wine for that is dissipation but be filled with the

Spirit. If I'm not mistaken, be filled is the passive continuous tense in the original

Greek meaning that being filled with the Holy Spirit is a continual process that God does in us.

We are to be being filled. If this is correct, how do we understand that this is presented to us in the form of a command presumably requiring us to do something?

What is that something? If that something is being submissive, surrendered, obedient or something else that is a gift of the

Spirit, it seems like we are in a circular line of thinking. Help me resolve this seeming complexity.

Thank you for edifying me today. That's Joe in Slovenia and we'll have you answer that question when we return from our station break.

Anybody else caring to join us on the air with a question of your own? Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com Don't go away. We'll be right back with Ryan McGraw.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnsin. If you just tuned us in today, our guest is

Ryan McGraw, Professor of Systematic Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina, and we are addressing his brand -new book published by the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, Knowing the Trinity, Practical Thought for Daily Life.

This is the second interview we are conducting on this issue, because the last time we had to leave the program due to time restraints before we really had an adequate discussion on the person and work of the

Holy Spirit, so that is our focus today. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Ryan, our email address is

ChrisArnsin at gmail .com, ChrisArnsin at gmail .com. In studio with me are

Pastor Matt Purdy and Pastor Deckard Stevens. Pastor Matt is the Senior Pastor at Carlisle Reform Presbyterian Church here in Carlisle, a congregation in the

Presbyterian Church in America, and Pastor Deckard Stevens is his Associate Pastor there, and Pastor Deckard is also the father -in -law of our guest,

Ryan McGraw. And before the break,

Ryan, as you know, I read you a question from our listener in Slovenia, Joe, and I will read it again to you.

Please ask Pastor McGraw to address my deficiency in understanding an aspect of Ephesians 5 .18,

and do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit. If I'm not mistaken, being filled is in the passive continuous tense in the original

Greek, meaning that being filled with the Holy Spirit is a continual process that God does in us.

We are to be being filled. If this is correct, how do we understand that this is presented to us in the form of a command, presumably requiring us to do something?

What is that something? And if that something is being submissive, surrendered, obedient, or something else that is a gift of the

Spirit, it seems like we are in a circular line of thinking. Help me resolve this seeming complexity.

Thank you for edifying me today. That was Joe in Slovenia. So if you could answer, Pastor Ryan McGraw.

What I'll do is I'll try to state the issue as I understand it somewhat succinctly, and then allow my brothers an opportunity to piggyback with the wisdom the

Lord has given to them as well. In terms of do not be drunk with wine, but be filled with the

Spirit, I'm immediately reminded of a book that my friend

Willem van Blouwstra in Amsterdam wrote called Be Renewed. And the book is on sanctification, and he points out that in his title,

Be Renewed, there is an imperative implied that there's something that we must do in our sanctification, in other words.

But it's a passive imperative, Be Renewed. And what he gets at in that book

I think strikes at the heart of the question that we have before us now, that our sanctification, which depends upon the

Holy Spirit, is something that we must pursue actively as Christians, but it's also something that we receive from the

Spirit, and in that sense is also passive. So when we're told not to be drunk with wine, but be filled with the

Holy Spirit, we are brought under the power of the

Holy Spirit, who fills us and enables us to obey God in all things.

But then at the same time, we're told to be filled with the Spirit, so we must pursue the filling with the

Spirit. So the Spirit is sovereign and filling us, and we must actively pursue the means by which

He would fill us. And there's several ways we can flesh that out in terms of what it looks like.

I think my father -in -law has already hinted at a large part of this by citing examples from Ephesians of what it looks like to be a person who's filled with the

Spirit, such as husbands loving their wives, wives submitting to their husbands, children obeying their parents, fathers training their children, and then the duties between masters and servants, among other things.

So if we want to be filled with the Spirit, I think implied in the context is, first of all, we must begin seeking the

Spirit's blessing in our lives through faith in Christ, which Paul labors to establish in the first three chapters.

Also, we must study the commands of God, which the Spirit is implanting into our hearts, and that's exemplified in chapters 4 through 6 of Ephesians.

And so by the Word of God and the Spirit of God working through the Word of God, the

Spirit fills our hearts with the authority and the graces that we need to actually serve, love, and obey

God. So we have a responsibility to be filled with the Spirit, but we also recognize that the

Spirit is sovereign in His work. Hey, man, it reminds me actually of the fact that we are to obey the gospel, not only just embrace the gospel, but obey the gospel.

And let's see, we have John in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Let's see here, I have to enlarge the font on his question because it's nearly microscopic.

Chris, before you go to the next question, if I could just add a little bit to what

Ryan was saying. Oh, yeah, definitely. We shouldn't think of this, it is an imperative, it is something that we do, but it's done by the power of the

Spirit. It's not a 50 -50, I do 50%,

God does 50%, it's not 25 -75. It's 100 % man and 100 %

God, and God always has the primacy. It's not that God casts

His vote one way, the devil the other way, you're casting the deciding vote. And we see a parallel, if I can just refer you to Romans 8 and verse 13, where Paul writes, if you live according to the flesh, you will die.

But if, by the Spirit, you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

And I would highly recommend John Owen's excellent work, The Mortification of Sin, which the whole book is based on this verse.

And one of the things that Owen really highlights there is this is something you do.

This is not the Spirit's the hand, we're the glove, we're passive. He is at work, but you put to death the deeds of the body.

But you do it by the power of the Spirit. You can't do it in the flesh.

So it's 100 % plus 100 % with God having the primacy.

Amen. Praise God. I was actually hoping and expecting you would say all of those things.

Ryan has heard that sermon series before. Let's see.

Well, now that I look further at this email, this is actually an email from, he is not only known as John, but he is known by his nickname

Buzz, my co -host who is not in studio with us today, John Busby Taylor, known as Reverend Buzz on my program.

He submits a question. He is speaking to me. You are significantly outnumbered today and mostly from one church.

Can you explain prayer in light of the Trinity? I know some charismatics believe that praying in the

Spirit is praying in tongues, yet we are all to pray in the

Spirit, but Paul indicates that in the body of Christ all do not speak with tongues.

If you could answer that, brother.

And also I should draw to the attention of our listeners that Reverend Buzz, my co -host who is normally in studio with me, he is also a former charismatic and even a formerly charismatic pastor at one time.

But anyway, if you could, brother, comment on Buzz's question. I should add that I was a half -hearted charismatic for a couple of years after I was converted.

So there is some of that there. In terms of prayer and the

Spirit and specifically praying in the Spirit, I think the best place to begin is to recognize that true

Christian prayer is an act of worship towards the

Triune God in which we depend upon all three Persons. And as we think about, for example, how

Jesus teaches us how to pray, He teaches us to pray to the Father in His name.

And depending on which text you look at, we pray both by the Spirit and for the

Spirit. So Jesus can summarize all the good things the Father gives us in Luke 11 or Luke 10, rather, in terms of the

Father giving the Spirit to those who ask Him. But then Paul tells us in Romans 8 that in all of our prayers, just as Christ is interceding for us in Heaven, the

Spirit is interceding within us in our hearts as we pray and assisting us in our prayers.

So if we're always praying to the Father, through the Son, and by the Spirit, by definition, all prayer is in the

Spirit. Because without the Spirit, we can't come to the Son who brings us to the Father. And so as we think about Paul telling us to pray always in the

Spirit, I don't believe Paul is singling out a special type of prayer that is different from the rest of the prayers we offer.

But he's reflecting the fact that the rest of the New Testament teaches that without the

Spirit's work in us, we can't pray at all. Well, thank you, Rev. Buzz, and we're looking forward to having you back in the studio as a co -host very soon on Iron, Sharpens Iron, God willing, perhaps even tomorrow.

And thanks a lot for that very insightful question. What are the primary things that you believe are very crucial, essential, important in regard to the person and work of the

Holy Spirit that is very often overlooked in your average congregation, maybe even one that is theologically reformed?

What are some of the things that we really have to bring back to the forefront of our teaching, preaching, and worship in regard to this third person of the

Trinity? Well, that's such a broad question, you almost leave me speechless to think about it.

As you're saying that, I suppose the first thing that comes to my mind is the fact that in the last 20 years or more, the

Holy Spirit has been referred to as the forgotten person of the Trinity. And often

I hear on the heels of a statement like that, that the Spirit is particularly forgotten or neglected in Reformed churches.

And I always find those statements puzzling, and frankly very difficult to evaluate.

Because first of all, from a historical perspective, I think one of the big features of Reformed theology was that many

Reformed authors believed that in Roman Catholicism, the magisterium and the liturgy and all of the external pomp and splendor of Roman Catholic worship, which culminated in the sacrifice of the

Mass, was a large attempt to replace the work of the Holy Spirit, or as Owen says later, to compensate for His absence.

And so all of the externals, in other words, are coming in and encroaching upon us and stirring up our hearts and emotions from the outside, rather than the

Spirit working in us from the inside and then expressing itself outwardly. And so in that respect, the doctrine of the

Holy Spirit has been so integral to how

Reformed people have preached the Gospel over the centuries, and to our understanding of our communion with God and public worship, that I always find it baffling to refer to Him as the forgotten person of the

Trinity. That being said, if there's truth in the comment, I think the bigger issue is probably that in our churches, we need to be more self -consciously

Trinitarian in general. In other words, we can't just think of God generically, but we have to think of God in the way that the

Apostle Paul did, or John, or Peter, or even Jesus Himself in the Gospel of John, where the

Gospel itself is explained in terms of the work of the Father, the work of the Son, the work of the

Spirit. And I believe that our last time together, I mentioned John Bunyan, who in Pilgrim's Progress, detects a young maid catechizing the youngest child in the family and asking those questions.

How does the Father save you? How does the Son save you? How does the Spirit save you? So in our context, as we think about what's missing, or perhaps what needs strengthening in terms of our thought about the personal work of the

Holy Spirit, I think the overarching issue is we need more of a devotional Trinitarianism first in order to put the

Spirit in His context. And then perhaps also to gain a better grasp of what the

Bible actually says the Spirit came to do. And I think some of the questions that we've already discussed together today reflect why

I'm making a comment like that, because there tends to be this idea that the work of the

Spirit is the realm of Pentecostals and not really something that we deal with as much.

And then as Reformed pastors, we have good theological answers as to how we view the work of the

Holy Spirit. But I think what needs to be recovered is moving the work of the

Spirit back into the Christian life in terms of a practical and devotional dependence upon Him in light of what the

Bible says concerning who He is and what He does. And that really ties back to the theme of the

Trinity as well as the devotional emphases we need. Now, in a paper that you wrote, you include in there a section on The Spirit as Gift, Explorations in John Owen's Pneumatology.

And if you could give us some examples of how Owen sees the Holy Spirit as a gift and John Owen being one of the greatest minds within Christendom and a cherished hero of Reformed Christians for quite a long time, a contemporary of John Bunyan, who although much more lofty in his academic prowess and credentials, was so humble and realized

John Bunyan's gifts so clearly that he had Bunyan preach in his pulpit. But if you could, tell us about some of these insights that you've gleaned from John Owen.

I should also add there, Owen was responsible for getting Pilgrim's Progress in print originally as well.

Oh, great. So there was more of a crossover in that way too, bringing us a great classic of Christian literature.

They didn't know that at the time, obviously. One reason for singling out

Owen on The Spirit is, as far as I'm aware, and I haven't read everything obviously, and I don't know everything, but as far as I know,

Owen has written the most extensive single treatment of the person and work of the Holy Spirit in the entire history of the

Christian Church. Wow. And if you want to know where to find it, it's actually

Volumes 3 and 4 of Owen's works, comprising about 1 ,100 pages of material.

Yes, I think Pastor Purdy read it in its entirety this afternoon over lunch. Yes. Very edifying.

Very edifying. Yeah, for those who are trying to read

Owen, you know that you can't speed read Owen, so at least if you do, you won't know what you're left -hand from your right anymore.

In fact, you've got to slow read it over and over again several times. Yeah, so Owen is significant in his own right, and actually he published his entire work on the

Holy Spirit in increments of separate books, because he always seemed to have this fear that he was going to die before he finished it, and he just wanted to keep getting the pieces out there.

So it's actually eight or nine parts, and it takes you through who the Spirit is in relation to the

Trinity as a whole, and then the work of the Spirit in the incarnate Christ, and then the work of the

Spirit in the believer, as it parallels the work of the Spirit in Christ, and then he moves out into dealing with the

Spirit in terms of spiritual gifts and being a spirit of prayer, and a number of other issues that are related to the personal work of the

Holy Spirit. So his intent was to be fairly comprehensive. I think that another reason to study

Owen is that I found the more that I studied in his context, you can find most of what he said in other authors eventually, but you'll rarely find what he says in other authors with the same depth and clarity and profundity that you find in Owen.

One of the things that's very helpful is specifically the connection between the

Spirit's work in Christ and the Spirit in the believer, and in my book, Unknowing to Trinity, I reflect some of these emphases as I go through each of the chapters on the

Spirit, and just to illustrate what this would look like, when you read in Luke 1 and 2,

Luke describes Christ being conceived of the

Spirit in Mary's womb and born of her.

So the Father there is sending the Son. The Son is conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and all three persons are at work in ways that respect their personal properties in the

Incarnation. Christ is born of the Spirit in a very real sense, and though Christ doesn't need a new nature and doesn't need to be born again, one of the things

Owen points us to is we also need to be born of the Spirit in a different way because we're dead in sin and we need a new nature, a new heart, and Christ doesn't, but because He was born of the

Spirit in the Incarnation, we can be born of the Spirit in regeneration. In fact, Ryan, if you could pick up, because we have to take a station break right now.

So pick up right where you left off. Please don't forget where you left off. And if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back after these messages with Ryan McGraw. God willing. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am

I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how

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cvbbs .com and you can find a whole host of excellent, trustworthy, biblically sound books at that website, so I also ask of you to always remember whenever you contact one of our sponsors to please let them know that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is the place where you heard about them but now we are back into our interview with Ryan McGraw we are discussing his brand new book

Hot Off the Press, Knowing the Trinity and that is a publication of the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and Ryan, if you could, pick up where you left off before we went to the original station break

Yeah, let me try to do so and just be brief and finish up what

I was doing I was saying that I think one of the great things John Owen has to offer us is showing the parallels between Christ's work or the

Spirit's work in Christ and the Spirit's work in believers and began with the

Incarnation and moved to the Regeneration Owen is not the only one who does this, but he does it more fully and clearly than most others that I've found.

Other examples would be as we look at Christ's earthly ministry we see that Christ was dependent upon the

Spirit in everything that He did so the Spirit came upon Him at His baptism to equip

Him for His public ministry He cast out demons by the Spirit and warned people against blaspheming the

Spirit by attributing that work to the devil instead of God. According to Isaiah 61 the

Spirit of the Lord came upon Him and anointed Him to preach the Gospel to the poor so we put some of these things together

Christ had all the gifts of the Spirit without measure, to borrow the phrase from John 3, that we might have a measure of the gifts of the

Spirit through Christ. Christ preached the Gospel independent from the

Spirit that Paul and ministers like us would be able to preach the Gospel in demonstration of the

Spirit and of power. Isaiah 11 even goes so far as to say that the

Spirit was to Christ a Spirit of the fear of the Lord so even as a perfect man,

He feared the Lord and walked in godliness by the Spirit. If Christ in His perfection, how much more are you and I in our imperfection?

And depending on the Spirit of God. Hebrews 9 .14 Christ even offered

Himself to the Father by the Eternal Spirit on the cross so His highest and ultimate act of obedience for us was done by the

Spirit and the Spirit was as it were the altar in which Christ offered Himself to the Father and of course in Romans 8 the

Father raised Christ from the dead by the Spirit and as the Spirit of Christ dwells in us, the

Father will raise our bodies by the same Spirit and then Paul draws out implications of these truths for this life as well as for the life to come.

So I think this idea of the Spirit personally indwelling the incarnate

Christ and working in the incarnate Christ, serving as the pattern for His work in us is extraordinarily fruitful for how we live the

Christian life and really as the Spirit was Christ's constant companion in everything that He did, the

Spirit then needs to become our constant companion in all that we do. And Pastor Matt Purdy has a couple of questions for you.

Just continuing, Brian, continuing along the same lines there or similar lines in terms of thinking about some practical matters.

Let's say one of the members of your church there is discipling a new believer and he asks you to recommend a good book or a couple good books that they could read together on the person and work of the

Holy Spirit. What would you recommend to that church member discipling a new believer? I would tell them to ask

Deckard Stevens. So well, actually

I will ask him to piggyback on some of this. Obviously something like Owen is probably going to be a bit dense for someone in that circumstance.

Some things that are helpful that are more modern would include, say,

Sinclair Ferguson on the Holy Spirit. It's something of an intermediate text rather than just a beginning text.

But I think it's helpful especially in working with someone where you're going to be talking about the text.

And Ferguson, even in his quasi -academic writings, is still exceptionally clear and easy to read.

And so I think that would be a good place to start. There are also some other devotional

Puritan reprints that have come out. There's a few little books by Octavius Winslow on the work of the

Spirit that have been helpful and people continue to enjoy. So any of these older or not older compared to what

I just mentioned but an older contemporary book would be J .I.

Packer Keeping in Step with the Spirit, which I think is a helpful introduction. And I don't know if Deckard has anything else you'd like to add to that.

Well, I think you hit the two that I would have recommended was Ferguson and Winslow, so I think that takes care of it.

You've got good taste. There is a book that I'm not 100 % sure is still in print, but there is a...

Oh, here it is. Yes, it is. It is still in print. I just found it. Solid Ground Christian Books has a book called

The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit by B .B. Warfield with an introduction by Sinclair Ferguson.

And some who are experts on Warfield might be scratching their heads and be thinking, wait a minute,

B .B. Warfield never wrote a book called The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit. Well, Solid Ground Christian Books, what they did was they took excerpts of Warfield's writings from different books on the

Holy Spirit and compiled them into one volume and titled it The Person and Work of the

Holy Spirit. And as I said, Sinclair Ferguson was gracious enough to do the introduction for them.

And if you'd like more information on that book, you could go to solid -ground -books .com

That's solid -ground -books .com You know, maybe one thing

I can throw out on top of that since we are discussing Knowing the Trinity, which

I just wrote Not that I'm just trying to sell books here but...

But I am trying to sell books here. Nothing wrong with that, brother.

I did write the material though, in part because I think it fills a need in the

Church and I think with the Spirit's help I was able to finish it and hope that it will fill its purpose.

But one of the things, just a note about the book in that light is the chapters are only about three to four pages each with study questions at the end of each chapter and the whole book is not very large so in some ways

I had the type of audience that Matt is asking about in mind in writing the book, not just with the

Spirit but with all the persons, and to flesh out some of these things in a practical context.

Well that's very helpful, thank you Ryan, and I appreciate what you said earlier about Ferguson's book, though I think it's applicable to all the books that you just recommended that when you're sitting down with someone and reading it either with them, live, or say you're reading on your own individually and then you come together to discuss, that that affords the opportunity to work through some of the difficult portions or to clarify things or answer questions so those are helpful,

I appreciate that. I have just one more question in terms of preaching so I would just personally love to hear your answer to this question, though I'm sure it would bless

Deckard and any other pastors who are listening in and the question is this, what counsel would you give to pastors for how to grow in their dependence on the

Spirit in preaching? And if you could think both in terms of the preparation that happens in the study and also in the preaching itself how can pastors grow in their dependence on the

Spirit in preaching? That's a great question and that's one of course we all have to think about frequently and by the way when

I say we all I mean not just as pastors but I think this is something congregations need to think more about as well and the first thing for a congregation and for a pastor is going to be prayer we need to learn to pray for our pastors frequently and especially pray that Spirit would accompany them in their studies and in their families and in their day -to -day life so that when they step into the pulpit and they are depending on the

Spirit in their preaching they are lifted up by the congregation in everything they do throughout the week and the best way to pursue the blessing of the

Spirit in the preached Word is to seek the Spirit's blessing in the preacher in all of his life so the congregation can contribute to the sermon in praying that way and of course as ministers we should be going through our books and our studies on our knees begging the

Lord to open our hearts to grow in our affections for Christ through our reading and to know the

Lord for ourselves and not simply be aiming to preach to others so that would be one thing.

When I say that's one thing that's probably 90 % of what I have to say is that I can't overemphasize the importance of prayer both by the congregation and by the pastor the other things that come to mind here are one thing

I found helpful in the ministry is perpetually reading good books that are going to direct me towards the work of the

Spirit in preaching and among others ones that come to mind would be

Pierre Marcel's Relevance of Preaching which is a small book but excels in really dealing with the role of the

Spirit in preaching and really makes preaching exciting as we're looking to the Spirit's work in us and through us

Lloyd Jones' Preaching and Preachers has been very helpful to me many times Daphne's Sacred Rhetoric or whatever

Banner calls it now is also helpful they keep changing titles back and forth so I don't know what it is now but something like that and one thing that's also helped me is as a young Christian especially reading

Dallimore's two volumes in George Whitfield and in many ways

I felt like it was like reading an uninspired version of Acts and just seeing the

Spirit do great and powerful things to the preaching of the Word and it really just makes you long to see the same things again and to beg the

Lord to work. So our prayers and the prayers of others and constantly meditating on what the

Spirit does in preaching have been the two things I've found most helpful. Well I thank you for that and it strikes me most that the congregations that we serve as pastors actually play a role in sermon preparation by praying for the minister and by praying for the work of the

Spirit in the lives of the people and the blessing on the preaching of the Word. One of the things we try to do at our church is in settings like our

Wednesday night prayer meeting, Deckard and I and others who lead that meeting try to pray consistently, have us pray consistently for the preaching of the

Word that happens morning and evening on the Lord's Day and I think that's a good way for us as pastors to help our people have an even higher view of the preaching of the

Word and of the work of the Spirit by encouraging them to pray consistently for the preaching of the

Word to be used by the Lord to convert sinners and to sanctify

His people. Amen. That's a great practice. Well I'm sure Pastor Purdy as a preacher you and Pastor Deckard and Ryan who

I know is an ordained Orthodox Presbyterian minister that you all despise it when you've heard in churches well now that we've continued singing praises to our

Lord and have finished our worship for the day it's time to hear our sermon and they introduce the preacher especially if it's a guest preacher that will happen where people will view the preaching as something other than worship like a tack on or something and that is a very high form of worship isn't it not?

And the other thing that I have been annoyed by at times and I've never heard this from a

Reform pulpit not to say that it hasn't happened but I've heard men say that they don't put a lot of preparation into writing their sermons and studying because they let the

Spirit guide them when they're up behind the pulpit that's probably just a license for laziness but that kind of manipulation of people's belief in the

Holy Spirit is pretty insulting to God isn't it? Well I think on your first point there

Chris when people say when people make this division between worship and preaching by which they mean the singing and the preaching

I think patience is in order for us I think it's an opportunity for us to instruct people in the biblical view of worship but I think

I've been most helped by John Piper's book on preaching the supremacy of God in preaching and things that he says there and in countless sermons about the glorifying

God in preaching and all that he has to say about exaltation over the word that's very helpful for ministers to take a look at the supremacy of God in preaching and also for us just to patiently and lovingly and with a smile on our face continue to teach our congregations a more biblical view of worship

Yeah I can recall a friend of mine when he was taking over a pastorate that he was given the call to walked into basically a pretty chaotic state in the church and he picking up on that theme of the sermon being something separate from worship or tacked on to worship he would actually ascend into the pulpit when it was time for him to preach and he would hear in the background outside the window members of the choir now that they have finished singing discussing where they're going to have lunch and hearing their cars driving away

I mean pretty deplorable situation I would echo both of Matt's points there too because I've also found

Piper's book very helpful and also echo the idea of being gentle and patient and kind to people

I'm actually almost finished right now writing a draft of a book on what is preaching for lay people and part of the idea and part of what goes behind what you're talking about is that I think what often happens is that people listen to sermons without ever opening the

Bible to ask well what does the Bible say preaching is and why is it important and many pastors step in the pulpit and they get a lot of instruction on how to preach but don't step back and say well how does the

New Testament actually define preaching and what are its purposes and tying into this whole discussion of the

Spirit and even the earlier question about sanctification one text that's always gripped me is in the end of Colossians 1 when

Paul describes his own preaching and he says concerning Christ Him we preach warning every man teaching every man that we may present every man perfect in Christ laboring according to His working which works in me mightily and basically the way

I see that is Paul is saying Christ is the subject and the object of preaching and the preacher is to aim at people's hearts wisely to warn them and instruct them with the goal that every single hearer would be soundly converted to Christ and brought to glory in Him and the way that the preacher does this is through full dependence on the

Spirit and though the Spirit isn't mentioned we get the same language that we've already discussed with not being drunk with wine but filled with the

Spirit we are laboring and we're doing it according to His working which works in us mightily so what

Paul is saying is that he was absolutely dependent on the Spirit for everything that he did in his preaching and otherwise but he still preached in the

Spirit to the glory of Christ with blood, sweat, and tears and so we can't pit hard labor and dependence on the

Spirit against one another but if anything our dependence on the Spirit should foster our hard labor and enable us to do it joyfully

By the way I think I failed to mention to Joe in Slovenia you have won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today,

Knowing the Trinity by our guest Ryan McGraw and it seems like we've been joined by a younger individual as a part of our broadcast today

I can hear him in the background. Hi Megan Joe in Slovenia you have won a free copy of Knowing the

Trinity Practical Thought for Daily Life by Ryan McGraw Compliments of the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and we thank you for providing an

American address where your daughter lives where that book can be much more affordably shipped by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com

Keep your eye open or have your daughter keep her eye open for that book coming in the mail in a package from CVBBS .com

and thanks again to the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals for providing that book and we have a listener that has written a question that I want to read to you in a second here and I'll read it to you and then we will go to a break and you can begin answering it after we return from the break.

You mentioned Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones just a moment ago when you were giving book recommendations. Jeff in Clinton Township Michigan says

I remember reading something from Martin Lloyd -Jones regarding a second blessing of the Holy Spirit.

Can you please explain what the second blessing is and how one would be able to recognize and validate it?

That is Jeff in Clinton Township Michigan. You can answer that when we return from the break. I know that that has been a source of controversy amongst

Reformed people and some charismatic folks have exaggerated what the late

Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones meant by that but we would love to hear from you and your answer when we return from our final break.

This is our final break so if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Ryan McGraw as well our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com Please submit your email as soon as possible because we are going off the air in about a half hour's time.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Ryan McGraw after these messages so don't go away.

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.com That's www .chefexclusive .com Welcome back, this is

Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a half hour to go is

Ryan McGraw we are discussing his brand new book, hot off the press Knowing the

Trinity which is a publication of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals this is a part two, if you will of a series we began not long ago when we tapped into this discussion on Knowing the

Trinity but did not have adequate time to address the person and work of the Holy Spirit. Today that is our focus

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com In studio with me are Pastor Matt Purdy and Pastor Deckard Stevens of the

Carlisle Reform Presbyterian Church Carlisle, Pennsylvania Before the break, Ryan, as you know,

I read a question from Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan and he says, I remember reading something from Martin Lloyd -Jones regarding his second blessing of the

Holy Spirit Can you please explain what the second blessing is and how one would be able to recognize and validate it?

I'm trying to think of where to begin with Lloyd -Jones When I mentioned

Lloyd -Jones earlier, it's interesting in my experience, my

British reform friends and my American reform friends often respond differently when

I cite Lloyd -Jones and usually my American friends look to him very appreciatively, my

British friends more cautiously, and the reason why they do so is that they're often concerned about this issue of the second blessing of the

Spirit that the listener just asked about. My understanding is that what

Lloyd -Jones was saying was that there is the ordinary work of the

Spirit in the preaching of the Gospel which he likens to gentle rain that nourishes and waters the earth and then there is the extraordinary work of the

Spirit in revival, which he would then liken to a torrential downpour. So the

Spirit, in other words, jump -starts his work. And the controversial part of his teaching is that he tried to connect this idea of the extraordinary work of the

Spirit, which happens periodically throughout the Church of Revival, to the various outpourings of the

Spirit in the Book of Acts. So his view is not Pentecostal in the sense that it's not tied to the presence of the charismatic gifts, but it does connect these various outpourings of the

Spirit to stages in history where God pours out

His Spirit much like He did in the Book of Acts. I personally think that in many ways

Lloyd -Jones is teaching the right doctrines and the wrong set of texts because I believe that the

Spirit does work extraordinarily at different times in the Church. Ordinarily, He is working through Word and Sacrament, and He is nourishing His people and spreading the

Gospel, especially through the teaching of the Word. And there are undoubtedly times where He comes in extraordinary ways to convert people to Christ and revive believers.

And we ought to pray for those particular instances in which the Spirit blesses.

But I think that the pouring out of the Spirit in the different stages we see it occurring in the

Book of Acts are actually meant to mark the spread of the Gospel from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria to the uttermost parts of the

Earth. So in other words, they are, as John Murray and Richard Gaffin and others have pointed out, events that are as unrepeatable as the resurrection of Christ in the sense that the

Lord is putting His stamp of approval on the fact that the Gospel now includes all these people from Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the uttermost parts of the

Earth. So I wouldn't equate this extraordinary work of the Spirit with these further blessings of the

Spirit that we find in the Book of Acts, but I would agree with Lloyd -Jones that we ought to pray for revival and seek the spread of the

Gospel in extraordinary ways. Would Jones' Calvinist -Methodist background have anything to do with some of his views that may not be typical for other

Reformed Christians like Presbyterians and Calvinistic Anglicans and Reformed Baptists and so on?

I think that certainly plays a part. And we have Bruce in Gardner, Massachusetts who asks, is there any credence to the charge against Isaac Watts for being anti -Trinitarian?

And that's the first time I'd ever heard that accusation. Is there anything to that? The short answer is absolutely.

Really? Well, Watts' view mostly relates to Christ's Incarnation.

And basically the idea was that we can't really speak of the

Incarnation as part of Christ's Humiliation because the Divine Nature is eternal and immutable.

And therefore there had to be a sense in which the

One who became Incarnate was humiliated, but the Son of God can't be humiliated, so how do we solve the problem?

Watts basically said that the Eternal Son had a non -physical, uncreated, eternal human nature.

And then this human nature became physical, or you could say fully human, at the

Incarnation. So by importing an eternal human nature in some vague respect to Christ, he compromises the

Divine Identity of the Eternal Son. Wow, I had never heard that before.

Sounds like something Harold Camping conjured up. Yeah, I mean,

I should add that Philip Doddridge had something very similar to that in his views. And both of these men have written some books that I found very helpful, but I think it is important to recognize that they've got some pretty serious errors and speculative questions that got them into trouble.

Your father -in -law has a question or comment. Well, I have a short comment on the

Second Blessing, to back up just slightly. I was there when Ernie Reisinger told us,

I believe in the Second Blessing. The first blessing was when I was converted, and the second blessing was when

I became a Calvinist. Ernie Reisinger, who actually was the founder of the church that I am now a member of.

Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle. I had two questions I wanted to pose to you,

Ryan, and the first is a short answer question, the other might be a little longer.

My technical, very highly theological question is, are you taking good care of my daughter?

I'd say after 11 years, if you don't know the answer to that question, I don't know what to say. But you weren't answering before thousands of listeners had been.

Alright, the second question, far more serious and on topic,

I think. One of the things that I find extremely deficient in Reformed circles, and really across the evangelical board, is the teaching of Scripture regarding grieving, quenching, and resisting the

Spirit. Could you maybe just unpack those briefly, and I think these are areas that the church desperately needs to look at more seriously.

Yeah, I think that's a great question, and a very practical one. Let me deal with each in turn.

In terms of grieving the Spirit, I think in the context, especially where it appears in Ephesians, the issue that Paul has in mind is really ungodly living.

And so, there are a number of ways in which people can grieve the Spirit, but when you mention this question, and you probably even have different instances in mind than I do, but one thing

I have in mind is these people that basically say, you know, I'm trusting in Christ for my justification and everything is great, and yes,

I live with my boyfriend and I fall into other sins here and there, but I'm so glad for the free grace of God and so thankful for it.

And sometimes I think that such people, if they're Christians at all, have grieved the

Spirit to such an extent that they're virtually insensible. And basically, we have to take seriously the warnings in Scripture against hardening our own hearts by not listening to the

Lord. If the Spirit softens the heart and sin hardens the heart and grieves the Spirit and quenches

His influence and His blessings, we can't invert that and say, if we just do all the right things, then therefore the

Spirit's going to come in great abundance, and if He's not here doing extraordinary things, then we must just be doing something wrong.

Well, maybe we are. Maybe we're sinning. Maybe we are neglecting the needs of grace.

Maybe we're doing things that would grieve the Spirit and quench His blessings and His influences, but the

Spirit is still sovereign. And so I think the answer is that in humble repentance, we need to pursue godliness recognizing the

Spirit doesn't bless us because of our perfect obedience, but the Spirit does choose to foster obedience and work in that context.

One thing that concerns me here with respect to a Reformed context is, you know,

I've traveled a lot, and so I can give a couple of examples without anyone guessing what churches

I'm talking about, but I've visited many churches over the years where, to be honest, you know, the preacher gets in the pulpit and the sermon's just boring.

He doesn't put much work into it. Sometimes I've even heard preachers stand up and just say, you know, this sermon

I read this week was better than what I could do, so I'm just going to read it to you. And then when people don't listen, then they basically just say, well, that's just because the

Spirit's not working and the Spirit's sovereign. Well, we can't blame the

Spirit for laziness in the pulpit or ungodliness in the personal life. And I think that sometimes in Reformed churches people develop what

I've called almost a Roman Catholic view of the means of grace. Basically just put in the products, and if you're sitting under the means of grace, it'll spit out the right end product.

And if it doesn't, it just means there's something defective in the raw materials.

And I think when we're talking about grieving the Spirit and quenching the Spirit, there's a lot more involved here, and maybe one of the reasons why we don't see more of God's blessing in our

Reformed churches is that we are not inculcating fellowship of the

Spirit in personal godliness and inferior prayer as much as we ought. So there is a responsibility here while still recognizing the

Spirit's sovereignty. And as I said, you probably have other practical examples in mind than the ones

I've mentioned, so I'll probably stop there and just let it hang for a minute. Anything you care to add,

Deckard? No, that's good. And let me repeat our email address, it's chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question for Ryan McGraw on the Trinity, and in particular the

Holy Spirit. And by the way, Bruce in Gardner, Massachusetts, you have also won a copy of the book,

Knowing the Trinity, Practical Thought for Daily Life, Compliments of the Publishers, The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

And it will be shipped to you, compliments of our friends at the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service dot com.

CVBBS dot com. And we thank the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for helping to get these books out to our listeners who have submitted questions.

And by the way, Bruce in Gardner, Massachusetts, I don't know how close Gardner is to Norfolk, Massachusetts, where my sponsor

Providence Baptist Church of Norfolk, Massachusetts is located. But if you do not have a home church and you are looking for one, please consider

Providence Baptist Church of Norfolk, Massachusetts. And also, if you are ever visiting the

Norfolk area, if it is not close to Gardner, please look up Pastor Mark Lukens and the

Providence Baptist Church of Norfolk and send them my greetings. Send Pastor Mark and the saints at Providence Baptist Church my greetings and my gratitude for their sponsorship of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And what I'd like you to do now, Ryan, is I'd like you to give about a five -minute summary of what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners.

And then I'd like when you're completed, both Pastor Matt and Pastor Deckard to either ask you a final question or even give their own final word to our listeners before we run out of time.

So if you could begin, Ryan, with a five -minute summary approximately. Well, what strikes me most immediately and pointedly is

Christ's statement about the Spirit in John 16. And I've already quoted it in the time that we've had today where Jesus summarizes the mission of the

Spirit in terms of convincing the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. And His summary statement is,

He shall glorify me because He'll take of what is mine and give it to you and declare it to you.

And I think what we need to recognize is that the Spirit of God, according to Romans 8 is also the

Spirit of Christ. And according to John 16, His aim, as it were, or mission is to shine the spotlight in Christ, on Christ.

And so if we would understand the Spirit's work correctly, we need to understand

Him as the one who loves to glorify the Son and who loves to direct our attention to Christ in His person and His work,

His humiliation, His exaltation and everything about Him. And the more I meditate upon texts like this one, the more

I'm convinced that the Spirit Himself desires us to know

Him as the Spirit of Christ and the best way we can honor the Spirit is to seek to honor the

Son and know the Son and proclaim His glory so that we and others would know the Father. Amen.

Well, if you could, Pastor Matt Purdy, give our listeners your final thoughts yourself on this topic, and then

Pastor Deckert, you can follow. Sure. Well, I just first want to say thank you to Ryan. It's always a privilege to interact with you,

Ryan, and appreciate the opportunity to do that on the show for a couple hours this afternoon.

I think I would just want to remind listeners of what's already been said about our dependence on the

Spirit as believers, our utter dependence on the Spirit. In our denomination, when someone joins a local church in the

PCA, they take five membership vows that they make before God and the congregation, and the third of those vows runs like this.

It says, Do you now resolve and promise in humble reliance upon the grace of the

Holy Spirit that you will endeavor to live as becomes a follower of Christ?

Basically, what the person is vowing to do is to follow Christ, to live as becomes a follower of Christ, but to do so in humble reliance upon the grace of the

Holy Spirit. And I always like to ask people, what would it be like if we took out that middle phrase and have them kind of think through that?

And I think that's a good thing for us to think about, is we need the Holy Spirit to empower us to live in a godly way, to live as becomes a follower of Christ.

And that, I think, is a good thought that I would want to sort of wedge in people's minds that we are utterly dependent on the grace of the

Holy Spirit to live the Christian life for the glory of God. I would just say again, thank you,

Ryan, for your labors, and I look forward to my signed copy of your new book in the mail.

Actually, you can give it to me next week. We'll be down there. What's been going through my mind all afternoon as I've been thinking about this is, and you alluded to it earlier from Luke 11, that the

Father knows how to give good gifts. He gives the Holy Spirit to those that ask

Him. We desperately need more of the Spirit. And if I can summarize it very quickly, that wonderful picture that Bunyan draws when

Christian goes into Interpreter's House and he takes him into the room, and there is a fire burning against the wall, and a man throwing water on the fire, but the fire continues to burn.

And Christian says, what does this mean? And he takes him around behind the wall, and there is a man pouring oil on the fire.

And he says, that man is Christ. And he doesn't call it the

Spirit, but the oil in Scripture is clearly imagery that's used for the

Spirit of God. We need Christ to be pouring oil on us, the oil of the

Holy Spirit. And he gives that to those that ask Him. Let's ask Him for it.

Amen. Amen. Well, I want to thank all of you for being on this program today.

Ryan, of course, I thank you for being on, and I look forward to you coming back again and frequently.

You have certainly, as I said earlier, I'm not exaggerating when I said you have become one of my very favorite guests very quickly, and you're certainly full of Biblical information, sort of like the way

Spurgeon described John Bunyan, that John Bunyan is his blood is

Bibline, wherever you prick him, the Bible oozes out, or something to that effect. And I feel similarly to you, brother, and I hope to have you back soon.

I know that your seminary website is gpts .edu,

gpts for Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary .edu. Do you have any other contact information that you care to share?

I think that's the main one. Great. Well, and I also know that the church where both

Pastor Matt Purdy and Pastor Deckard Stevens serve as pastors is the

Carlisle Reformed Presbyterian Church here in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Their website is carlislepca .org

c -a -r -l -i -s -l -e p -c -a dot org, and I hope that if you are visiting

Carlisle, or if you live there and don't have a church home, that you might want to consider paying a visit to the

Carlisle Reformed Presbyterian Church. And also, I obviously have to thank our friends at the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals for providing us the books that we have been giving away today.

Their website is alliancenet .org if you care to purchase this book, alliancenet .org

and they also have an events area on the website.

Click on events because there's a whole bunch of activities that the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals are not only running themselves but also cooperating with other ministries and organizations to have in the near future, including the

Faithful Shepherd Conference, May 15th through the 17th in Long Beach Island, New Jersey, or should

I say on Long Beach Island, New Jersey and that includes speakers such as Amy Bird, John Nelson, Todd Pruitt, and Carl Truman, one of my favorite writers and teachers from Westminster Theological Seminary.

Go to alliancenet .org for more information on that, alliancenet .org. Well, I want to thank all of you who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions for our guest, and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. We hope to hear from you and your questions for our guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.