March 7, 2017 Show with Ryan McGraw on “Knowing The Trinity: Practical Thought for Daily Life” (continued today with a special emphasis on the Person & Work of the HOLY SPIRIT)

The Program Introduction and the Iron Sharpens Iron Theme

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you a happy Tuesday on this seventh day of March 2017, and I am delighted to have back on the program somebody who has quickly become one of my favorite guests, and that's Ryan McGraw.

He's professor of systematic theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina. He's the author of The Day of Worship, Reassessing the Christian Life in Light of the Sabbath by Good and Necessary Consequence, and we are discussing a new book, hot off the press through the Alliance of Convessing Evangelicals, Knowing the Trinity, Practical Thought for Daily Life.

This is actually another part of our discussion, part two, I think at least, and we are focusing our attention this time on the person and work of the Holy Spirit, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens.

Iron Radio, Ryan McGraw. Thank you, Chris. It's good to be with you again, brother.

It's good to be with you, too, and in studio with me are two men that you know very well. We have Pastor Matt Purdy, who is senior pastor of Carlisle Reform Presbyterian Church, which is a congregation within the Presbyterian Church in America here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and also his assistant pastor, your father-in-law, Pastor Deckard Stevens, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both in the studio for the very first time, Pastor Matt Purdy and Pastor Deckard Stevens.

Thank you, Chris. It's good to be here, and hello, Ryan. Hey, Ryan. And first of all, Pastor Matt Purdy, since you are on the program for the very first time ever, after you know me asking multitudes of times, we finally have the privilege of having you on Iron Sharpens Iron.

I'm so delighted about that. Now I have had every Reformed pastor in Carlisle on my show, and if you could tell us something about your own personal background, what the Lord providentially brought about in your life to bring you to salvation, and then ultimately to the Reformed faith in the pastorate.

Sure. Well, I had the merciful.

Privilege of being raised in a Christian home. My parents both know and love Jesus Christ and taught me to know and love Christ from earliest days. I grew up in a non-denominational church that was a Gospel-believing, Gospel-preaching church, but not Reformed in its doctrine, and it was really early on when I made a profession of faith in Christ and was baptized, but not until later years of high school and into college when I really began to seek the Lord and read the Word and grow in grace, in particular in the college years, which is actually when I first started to attend a PCA church, the denomination I now serve in, and the Lord used that time in college really to draw me closer to Himself and also grow in my heart a desire to serve Him in the pastoral ministry, which landed me eventually at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte after getting married to my wife Kristen, and we spent three years down there for me to get a Master of Divinity, and then the Lord called me to be an assistant pastor in Richmond, Virginia at a PCA church for about six years, and then led us up here to Carlisle, Pennsylvania about four years ago, so I've been serving as the solo pastor of this church for the last four years, and in God's great mercy, He called Deckard here as well to be the assistant pastor, so it's been a wonderful four years here.

Carlisle's a wonderful place. The church, the members of the church are wonderful people. They are receptive of the Word of God, and it's just a great privilege to be able to preach it and minister it to them in public and in private, and to do that now along with Deckard.

Amen, and Deckard Stevens, if any of our listeners have been listening as long as going back to 2015, they may recognize the name Deckard Stevens because he was a guest on this program already on October 2nd, 2015, and he was discussing his conflict, well actually he was discussing the book Conflict and Triumph by William Henry Greene, and how it reflected and aided him in his own trial with cancer, which thanks be to God he had victory over, but it's an honor and privilege to have you in the studio, Pastor Deckard, your second time on the program, but the first time.

In the studio. Thank you Chris, it's a joy to be back with you, and looking forward to the program and being able to interact with my son-in-law. Amen, and if you could briefly do the same as.

Pastor Matt did, give our listeners an abbreviated version of your testimony and how you came to be.

Assistant pastor here in Carlisle. Well I had quite an interesting and checkered experience, or journey. I grew up in the Episcopal Church and never really heard the gospel, never really understood my need of a Redeemer and a Savior, but in God's providence we were removed from the Episcopal denomination, and I went through a series of churches, a number of charismatic churches, and Church of God of Prophecy, and Southern Baptists, and in God's mercy I stumbled into a Presbyterian church one Sunday morning, and it just really changed everything.

Sounded like a Calvinist evolution chart.

Yeah, but I met a pastor who took me under his wings immediately and began to teach me and pray with me and just disciple me, and step by step the Lord called me into the ministry. I served for the past 27 and a half years as the pastor of Calvary Presbyterian Church, a PCA congregation in Greenville, South Carolina.

Was there for 62 years of my previous life, and in God's providence he called me up here to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and so I'm excited about the opportunity to minister here and looking forward to God's kingdom being extended and His glory being exalted as a result.

Amen, and I remember the first time I had heard about you was seeing a video that the Banner of Truth conducted of an interview with you regarding your love for the book Conflict and Triumph by William Henry Green and how it was a very powerful tool in the Lord's hand to guide you through this journey of cancer, and you're cancer-free right now, correct?

Since 2000, so praise be to the Lord.

Praise God. Well, I also want to give the website for Carlisle Reformed Presbyterian Church if anybody listening is either living in the area or caring to visit at some point. Dickinson College is right here, so a lot of people do visit from all over the United States, in fact all over the world.

The website is carlislepca .org, C-A-R-L-I-S-L-E-P-C-A for Presbyterian Church in America dot org. Well, our guest today, as I mentioned, is Ryan McGraw and we are discussing, again, his book Knowing the Trinity with a special focus on the person and work of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit, Sovereign Grace, and Reformed Worship

And Ryan, it seems to me that I find it kind of interesting that there will be people who will attend a Reformed church and because very often they are more traditional, not always, but very often they're more traditional, they're more staid and reverent in their worship and so on.

People have left the worship services and said the Spirit just isn't there. I just don't like that place because I don't feel the Holy Spirit. The irony is that the doctrines of sovereign grace have a more powerful role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of every Christian, I'm sure you'd agree, because we don't even believe that a person can offer a faith to God in order to become a born-again Christian, as the Arminian Ordo Salutis would have us believe, that we in our sinfulness and unregenerate state can offer a faith to Christ that saves us.

We who are Reformed believe that even that initial step of coming to faith in Christ is all owed to the debt of the Holy Spirit miraculously regenerating us, isn't that true?

Yeah, it is. And maybe I'll mention as Bob, another mother-in-law is the minister of counsel. Praise God. That gives me a good lead-in to answer your question.

I'm a little devastated because they originally thought it was going to be dedicated to me, but anyway. In more ways than one, even in God's eyes, I think.

And again, we can't see the kingdom. Amen. Yes, we above all Christians should be enthusiastic and joyful in our worship. But.

Sometimes though, people have a superficial understanding of how that is supposed to be manifested though. I mean, obviously, people will equate the level of how much you are filled with the Holy Ghost by how much you dance in the aisles at church and do somersaults and do all those kinds of things.

And that really has nothing to do with the level of indwelling of the Holy Spirit that one may have. And wouldn't you say that although we should be exuberant and joyful in our worship, that we also should be reverent in our worship.

Our worship should be orderly. And we should be taking very seriously the God whom we worship and the words that we are singing and the words that we are hearing in a sermon, correct?

Yes, and I think I'm thinking here in terms of...

And Deckard, you have a question or comment?

Well, I just had a comment that goes along with what Ryan is just talking about in Ephesians 5, where we have the imperative command, be being filled with the Holy Spirit. What does he follow that with but joyful worship, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, but then immediately it shows itself when wives submit to their husbands.

And husbands love their wives like Christ loved the church and sacrificed their desires for their wife. And children obey their parents and servants are good servants to their masters. I mean, it's uncanny.

The practical nature of obedience is the mark of being filled with the Spirit of God.

Now, one thing I immediately wanted to ask you, Deckard, knowing of the fact that you, on your journey through different theological perspectives along the spectrum of Christendom, you spent some time in the charismatic movement.

Now, when you came to an understanding of Reformed theology, did you feel like you were embracing a lesser view of the Spirit or a diminished view.

Of the Holy Spirit in any way? Not really. I want to be as gracious as I possibly can, but I saw through a lot of that charismatic influence. It was a lot of feeling, a lot of emotion, not a lot of biblical content.

And when I came into the Presbyterian church, I was introduced immediately to what you mentioned just a little while earlier, balancing that enthusiasm of the Spirit with reverence and seeing examples like Moses, who spoke with God face-to-face, and yet when he met the Lord face-to-face at the burning bush, what did he do?

He fell on his face. John, on the Isle of Patmos, the apostle, when he is in the Spirit on the Lord's Day and he sees Jesus, he doesn't stand and slap him on the back and say, oh, it's good to see you.

He falls on his face in reverent fear of God. And so learning the biblical emphases of reverence and godly fear as a work of grace.

In our hearts and true worship. In fact, Pastor Purdy, I know that you spent a good deal of your life as a Christian before you came to the Doctrines of Grace, correct? Correct. And wouldn't you say that the theologically reformed understanding of the Spirit is far more powerful, infinitely more powerful, than the Holy Spirit depicted by Armenians and those of other faiths within Christendom?

Because our Holy Spirit saves every single person He intends to. He regenerates every person He intends to, and He keeps every person He intends to. It's interesting how some Pentecostals who are five-point Armenians who believe that you could lose your salvation, and some of the charismatic and Pentecostal congregations, you'll have people going forward for salvation every week.

But it's interesting how they believe somebody can be physically healed by this Holy Spirit, and yet the permanency of salvation is far more fragile in their minds. It seems to be an irony there. But if you could tell us what your feelings about.

What I just said about the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And like Deckard said a minute ago, I would say I want to be gracious to the church that I grew up in. The Lord did use that church and its pastor and its people, its members, in profound ways in my heart and life, many of which I'm sure I don't even realize.

But it was, I said non-denominational earlier, it was not a denominational affiliated church, but it was charismatic in its views on the gifts of the Holy Spirit today, in particular speaking in tongues and working of miracles and such.

And I would say that even though there was a heavy emphasis on the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit, I appreciate Ryan's distinction that he made a few minutes ago between the gifts of the Spirit and the graces of the Spirit, because that's one of the main differences in my own experience between the church I grew up in and the denomination that I now serve in, and that is the church I grew up in, the emphasis was primarily on the gifts of the Spirit, and particularly those sign gifts we might call them, and not so much on the graces of the Spirit.

And I think that, you know, Ryan's reference to the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5 as one of the key evidences of a Spirit-filled Christian, that has been my experience since being in a Reformed denomination, a Reformed church, that the graces of the Spirit, that He works in our hearts and exhibits in our lives, that's a much more robust, full view of the work of the Spirit than what I experienced in that charismatic church growing up.

As grateful as I am for them.

Amen. And I'd like to let our listeners know our email address if you'd like to join us on the air for the question of your own, it's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

And Ryan, as you know, many of the cults and aberrant religions that profess to be Christian view the Holy Spirit merely as an it or a thing, not as a person of the Godhead. They believe that the Holy Spirit is a divine force, the power of God and so on.

And don't you think that unfortunately some of us who have an orthodox creed that we may even believe in our minds tend to lapse into the way we view the Holy Spirit even if unconsciously as merely a force and not.

A person of the Godhead? Certainly. Also in this connection I can't resist one to me that when you think about 1 Corinthians 12 and he describes that and the same God works in all so you have an emphasis and as we depend upon him personally he works love in us and fosters godliness through.

Love. Amen. We're going to go to a break right now. In fact I'm going to read you a question from a listener that we have in Slovenia and you can reflect on that even further during the break and answer the question when we return.

But Joe in Slovenia says, Please ask Pastor McGraw to address my deficiency in understanding an aspect of Ephesians 5 .18 and do not get drunk with wine for that is dissipation but be filled with the Spirit.

If I'm not mistaken be filled is the passive continuous tense in the original Greek meaning that being filled with the Holy Spirit is a continual process that God does in us. We are to be being filled.

If this is correct how do we understand that this is presented to us in the form of a command presumably requiring us to do something? What is it that what is that something? If that something is being submissive surrendered obedient or something else that is a gift of the Spirit it seems like we are in a circular line of thinking.

Help me resolve this seeming complexity. Thank you for edifying me today. That's Joe in Slovenia and we'll have you answer that question when we return from our station break. Anybody else caring to join us on the air with a question of your own?

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away we'll be right back with Ryan McGraw. One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.

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If you just tuned us in today. Our guest is Ryan McGraw, Professor of Systematic Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina, and we are addressing his brand-new book published by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, Knowing the Trinity, Practical Thought for Daily Life.

This is the second interview we are conducting on this issue because the last time we had to leave the program due to time restraints before we really had an adequate discussion on the person and work of the Holy Spirit, so that is our focus today.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Ryan, our email address is chrisarnsin at gmail .com, chrisarnsin at gmail .com. In studio with me are Pastor Matt Purdy and Pastor Deckard Stevens.

Pastor Matt is the Senior Pastor at Carlisle Reformed Presbyterian Church here in Carlisle, a congregation in the Presbyterian Church in America, and Pastor Deckard Stevens is his Associate Pastor there, and Pastor Deckard is also the father-in-law of our guest, Ryan McGraw.

And before the break, Ryan, as you know, I read you a question from our listener in Slovenia, Joe, and I will read it again to you. Uh, please ask Pastor McGraw to address my deficiency in understanding an aspect of Ephesians 518, and do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit.

If I'm not mistaken, being filled is in the passive continuum, continuous tense in the original Greek, meaning that being filled with the Holy Spirit is a continual process that God does in us. We are to be being filled.

If this is correct, how do we understand that this is presented to us in the form of a command, presumably requiring us to do something? What is that something? And if that something is being submissive, surrendered, obedient, or something else that is a gift of the Spirit, it seems like we are in a circular line of thinking.

Help me resolve this seeming complexity. Thank you for edifying me today. That was Joe in Slovenia. So if you could answer, uh, Pastor, uh, Ryan McGraw.

Uh, what I'll do is I'll try to safety-ish piggyback with, do not be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit, be reminded, be renewed. And he points out that we must, and in that sense, not to be drunk.

Amen. It reminds me actually of, um, the fact that we are to obey the gospel, not only just embrace the gospel, but obey the gospel. And, uh, let's see, we have, uh, John in, uh, Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Let's see here. I have to enlarge the font on his question because it's nearly microscopic.

Chris, before you go to the next question, if I could just add a little bit to what Ryan was saying, um, we shouldn't think of this. It is an imperative. It is something that we do, but it's done by the power of the Spirit.

It's not a 50, 50. I do 50%. God does 50%. It's not 25, 75. It's a hundred percent man and a hundred percent God. And God always has the primacy.

It's not that God casts his vote one way, the devil the other way, and you're casting the.

Deciding vote. And, and we see a parallel, if I can just refer you to, uh, Romans 8 and verse 13, where Paul writes, if you live according to the flesh, you will die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

And I would highly recommend John Owen's excellent work, The Mortification of Sin, which the whole book is based on this verse. And one of the things that Owen really highlights there is this is something you do.

This is not the Spirit's the hand, we're the glove, we're passive. He is at work, but you put to death the deeds of the body. But you do it by the power of the Spirit. You can't do it in the flesh. So it's, it's a hundred percent plus a hundred percent with God having the primacy.

Amen. Praise God. I was actually hoping and expecting you would say all of those.

He's, Ryan has heard that sermon series before.

Let's see, well, uh, now that I look further at this email, this is actually an email from, he is not only known as John, but he's known by his nickname Buzz, my co-host who is not in studio with us today.

John Busby Taylor, known as Reverend Buzz on my program. He submits a question. He says, you are significantly, he's speaking to me, you are significantly outnumbered today, and mostly from one church.

Can you explain prayer in light of the Trinity? I know some charismatics believe that praying in the Spirit is praying in tongues, yet we are all to pray in the Spirit. Paul, but Paul indicates that in the body of Christ, all do not speak with tongues.

If you could, uh, uh, answer that, uh, uh, brother, and also, uh, I should, I should, uh, draw to the attention of our listeners that, that the Reverend Buzz, my co-host who is normally in studio with me, uh, he is also a former charismatic, and even a formerly charismatic pastor at one time.

But anyway, uh, if you could, brother, uh, comment on, on Buzz's question.

I should add that I was, uh, so, uh, is too. Well, thank you, Reverend Buzz, and we're looking.

Forward to having you back, uh, in the studio as a co-host very soon on Iron Trepans Iron, God willing, perhaps even tomorrow. And, uh, thanks a lot for that very insightful question. Uh, what are the primary things that you believe are very crucial, essential, important in regard to the person and work of the Holy Spirit that is very often overlooked in your average congregation, maybe even one that is theologically reformed?

What are, what are some of the things that we really have to bring back to the forefront of our teaching, preaching, and worship in regard to this third person of the Holy Spirit,.

Of the, uh, Trinity? Forgotten personally, Trinitarian John, but I think what needs to be recovered is the work of the Spirit back into the Christian life in terms of a practical and devotional dependence upon Him in light of what the Bible says, who He is, and what...

John Owen, the Spirit as Gift, and the Incarnation

Now, in a paper that you wrote, uh, you include in there a section on the spirit as gift. Explorations in John Owen's pneumatology. And if you could, uh, give us some examples of how Owen sees the Holy Spirit as a gift, and John Owen being one of the greatest minds within Christendom, uh, and, uh, a cherished hero of Reformed Christians, uh, for quite a long time, a contemporary of John Bunyan, who although much more lofty in his academic prowess and credentials was so humble and realized John Bunyan's gifts so clearly that he had Bunyan preach in his pulpit.

But if you could, uh, tell us about some of these insights that you've gleaned from John Owen.

Um, I should also...

Oh, great.

Wow. Yes, I think. Pastor, uh, Purdy read it in its entirety this afternoon over lunch.

Yes, very edifying, very edifying.

Yeah, you, uh...

In fact, you got to slow read it over and over again several times.

He published, so I think it's an eight or nine part, incarnate Christ, and then the work of the Spirit. I think that you can find most of what he looked like when you read in Luke, the strider way, because we're...

But because he was born of the Spirit and the incarnation, we can be born of the Spirit.

In fact, uh, in fact, uh, Ryan, if you could pick up, because we have to take a station break right now, uh, so pick up right where you left off. Please don't forget where you left off. And if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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