January 22, 2024 Show with Keith Allen on “Dataing & Marriage God’s Way”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 22nd day of January, 2024.

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And first of all, I must start out the show today with my deepest, heartfelt thanks.

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In ways that I cannot adequately say in the English language, I give to you, my listeners, my deepest thanks.

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The hundreds of you who poured upon me their love, compassion, and prayer as I went into the

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ER on Saturday night, thinking I may have had a stroke.

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I thank my friends, Susan, who led me to Christ in the 1980s, and her son,

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Joe, who actually was the one that drove me to the

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ER. They both would not take no for an answer, and constantly nagged me, and begged me, and demanded me to go to the

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ER. And I am glad that I did, because I found out the good news, that I did not have a stroke.

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But the bad news, but not nearly as bad news, if I had had the stroke, the bad news is

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I have Bell's Palsy. So those of you hearing the show may detect, on occasion, a slight lisp in my voice.

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And hopefully that will not be with me very long. I've already picked up my prescription that the doctors at the hospital prescribed, and I have a follow -up appointment with my physician,

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Joel Yeager, this Friday, one of the few doctors that I trust in this day and age, a man who bravely stood against, vociferously stood against the mask mandate insanity, and warned the public, at the risk of losing his own medical practice, warned the public against taking the coronavirus vaccine, because he knows that they are dangerous.

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So on top of everything, Dr. Joel, of Heritage Family Health in Newmanstown, Pennsylvania, is a

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Christian, and on top of it, just an added bonus, he's theologically reformed. But if anybody wants to find out more about Dr.

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Yeager's research into not only masks, but much more importantly, the coronavirus vaccines, which he opposes, go to HeritageFamilyHealth .org,

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HeritageFamilyHealth .org. But thank you all so much for your prayers and your ongoing prayers, your ongoing contacts to me, primarily through social media, requesting updates from me on how

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I am doing, how I am feeling, how I am recovering. And as I already said,

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I can't even come up with the words in the English language to adequately thank you all.

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And I know that the brother that I have as a guest on my show today was among those praying for me, as was his elder

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Sal D 'Antona at Lindbrook Baptist Church. I am thrilled to have on again today a returning guest,

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Pastor Keith Allen, who was recently installed as the new senior pastor at Lindbrook Baptist Church in Lindbrook, Long Island, New York.

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And today we are going to be discussing something that the Lord placed upon his heart, and that is the subject of dating and marriage

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God's way. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Keith Allen.

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Glad to be here with you, brother. Glad that you're back in the saddle, not really missing a beat.

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The Lord is very kind to you, and we're rejoicing in that. Amen. Well, I really appreciate that, brother.

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Can you please, for the sake of those in our audience who have not yet heard you on Iron Trip and Zion Radio or just have no knowledge of Lindbrook Baptist Church, if you could let our listeners know about that fine congregation.

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Well, I became the pastor of Lindbrook Baptist Church in October of 2023.

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Lindbrook Baptist Church is going to be celebrating its 115th anniversary this year.

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So a historic church, a Bible -believing church, a very warm and diverse church.

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We give attention to the Word of Scripture. We seek to obey the Lord Jesus Christ, to love the

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Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love our neighbor as ourself.

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Looking to find the place that the Lord has us to play our part in the

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Great Commission and to glorify Him. So we have had much joy coming together as pastor and congregation.

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My elders are faithful men who are supportive and active and very helpful.

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And the congregation is filled with love and a desire for the Word. And so, of course, we are seeking the lost to proclaim the gospel to them.

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So we invite all to come and hear the Word. And if you are a sheep of the Lord Jesus Christ and you've not yet found a flock, we are certainly looking to care for God's people in our local area.

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Well, praise God. If anybody wants more details, you can hear their ads that are airing every day now.

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After they finally selected the man they believed, that they were called to extend the call to ministry, we began airing the new ad for Lindbergh Baptist Church.

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You can hear those ads every day. But for more details, you can also go to their website, LindberghBaptist .org.

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And that is spelled L -Y -N -B -R -O -O -K Baptist .org.

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And we will repeat that later and you will hear the ads as well. Well, you wanted to discuss today dating and marriage.

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Any particular reason other than the fact that it is obviously, or those two things are very important issues to discuss from a biblical perspective amongst

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Christians, but any particular reason why that was a burden on your heart to discuss today?

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Well, there's sort of a running joke in my household that when myself and my wife are out at various functions, particularly where there are young adults present, the high likelihood that she will find me having a conversation with someone about the significance of marriage and its relationship to Christ and his church is very, very high.

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It's a topic that I love to talk about. It's a topic that I think is extremely important for Christians of all kinds to understand and to understand well.

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I think the reason why it's such a big thing for me is because the

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Lord saved me out of a lifestyle of sexual immorality. I was dating my current wife when

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I got saved and not doing so in a God honoring way. And so when the

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Lord altered my heart and opened me to hear his word, he immediately began to reconfigure my entire understanding of life, male -female relationships, what

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I thought marriage was about. And so in the midst of my early discipleship and I was married,

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I was saved in September of 2013. I was married in June of 2014.

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And so much of my understanding of life and the scriptures and of marriage was all being built up at the very same time.

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And so I've been thinking on the word and what it says about marriage very, very deeply in a focused manner for application since I was saved.

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Well, praise God. Just out of curiosity, I hate the term biracial because there is only one race, that is the human race.

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And the identity of different races, whether you're white, black,

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Asian, Native American, Hispanic, etc., that was an invention to categorize those things as races, was an invention of racists trying to set apart the white so -called race from other categories of individuals, something that was the bedrock of why

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Planned Parenthood was founded, the largest provider of infanticide in the

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United States. It was intended, the actual main goal, it was intended to rid the earth of everybody but whites through sterilization and then later on through murdering babies.

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But you are a black brother, your wife is a white sister in the

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Lord. And is that even a thing today where there is any unique challenge behind that?

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I mean, of course, there will always be bigots in this world. But when you see a couple today in the 21st century where one of the spouses is black, the other is white, it's really nothing that even makes you do a double take anymore.

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It's something that, especially where I live in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it almost seems that there are more couples that are one spouse black, one spouse white, than the other way around.

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It just seems that way. But anyway, just to get beyond that point in our discussion, because it's not the main reason we're having this conversation, is there any unique challenge in the 21st century about that?

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Maybe the biggest unique challenge is often having to answer the question about the unique challenge.

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In the world that my wife and I have operated in, I can't say that outwardly there has been much difficulty in that regard.

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Her parents are open, loving Christians who received me with great joy and hospitality from day one.

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My family loves my wife and has always been supportive of my relationship with her.

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Like you said, we know that there are bigots in the world. We are sinful humans and we tend to form opinions about who people are and what they do and what they're like based on what they look like.

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So I'm certain people have thought different things and people have said things here or there that made it known to me that either this was a strange thing for them or an unusual thing for them.

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But as far as challenge, I mean the fact that my wife and I united in the

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Lord, we had the blessing to be a part now of three different congregations that were all diverse with diverse relationships.

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We have never really stuck out or felt ostracized, which

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I feared when I first came to North Shore Baptist Church. I thought that we would stick out like a sore thumb, myself being a 6 '2 black man and my wife being a 5 '2

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Caucasian woman. But we blended right in and it has never been a major issue for us, nor for our children.

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Our children have been well loved by our congregations and by our neighbors. So we've experienced nothing really but joy in that regard.

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Well, praise God. And I think chronologically, we should probably start with dating as a part of our discussion, because obviously that would be coming before people get married.

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And there is, I'm assuming you're aware, but perhaps you're not, there is a divide amongst

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Christians over the approach to relationships between the sexes before marriage.

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You have those that are committed only to approving of a courtship model, where you recognize somebody in the congregation that you believe for maybe multiple reasons is a person you want to pursue for marriage.

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And there are probably stricter guidelines that many people have in that regard, where you have the man asking the father if he is living or the mother of the woman for permission to begin courting this person.

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Perhaps there are strict guides in a particular church about supervision of these romantic encounters.

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And when I say romantic, I'm obviously just speaking about having dinner and going to the theater and things like that.

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And then there is the dating model that is a much more relaxed situation, not that any true

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Christian is promoting any kind of sinful behavior, any kind of sexual activity prior to marriage.

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It's just more of a relaxed atmosphere where a person feels he has every liberty to go on dates with more than one woman until he finds that one that he believes

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God has meant for him. So, since you use the word dating, I'm assuming that you think that dating is a completely fine way to get to know people of the opposite gender and then eventually perhaps find that one in that way that God has meant for you.

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Am I right on that? I use the term dating as a colloquialism.

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I think because any word you use, there's going to be different connotations of what that means.

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I don't prefer the word dating. And so, when I begin to talk about it with young people,

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I've sort of got to explain what I mean. Because I do lean to towards the more conservative courtship type model.

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But I don't think that there is anything wrong with a brother asking his sister to have a cup of coffee and to talk about things with a view towards a deepening relationship that leads to marriage.

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I mean, does that always have to be, in your mindset, the proper motivation for a man who either meets for the first time or gets to enjoy the company in mixed settings of a

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Christian woman and just to get to know the person, to have an enjoyable time at a movie, a concert, over a meal, just to say, hey, you want to go out to dinner?

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I mean, without any thought in your head that this may be the one, you know, and even bringing that up in conversation, can it be just that much more of a relaxed atmosphere?

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I would not suggest that. And I don't think in reality, because of how men and women are made and what

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God made them for, that that will be any relaxed kind of anything.

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Because men and women were made to partner with one another. When God made the woman from the man, he made her to be a partner for him.

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Then she is compatible with him, both biologically and in the manner of her giftings and strengths.

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And so anytime that you bring a man and a woman together in an individual relationship apart from a group setting, generally speaking, those connotations and expectations and implications are going to be hovering over that.

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How about more like on double dates then, you know, when there's more than two people, you have two or three couples, you know, enjoying dinner together.

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Does it have to be hovering over you that this woman thinks

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I want to marry her, you know, that kind of thing or vice versa? So in my view, one should not pursue to pair off with a person of the opposite sex unless marriage is in view.

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And I can I mean, we can dive into the specifics of that. Yeah, I definitely want you to do that when we return from our break, because I don't want to interrupt you.

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We're going to be going into our first first commercial break right now.

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And if anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own, please submit it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence.

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Only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private. And I could readily understand a topic like this evoking questions that are intensely personal from listeners, whether about the dating aspect that we are addressing, the courtship aspect or the marriage aspect that will be our second half of the show.

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You may remain anonymous, but it's a general question. Please give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, a

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Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the

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Great Commission, supporting and sending for the gospel to the ends of the earth. We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family.

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At Linbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired

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Word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.

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We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

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Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear

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God's image. If you live near Linbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the

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Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit linbrookbaptist .org,

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that's l -y -n -brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

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It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of the

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Lord blessing in the knowledge of himself. Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur.

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Go to royaldiadem .com and mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And we are now back with our discussion with Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church in Lindbrook, Long Island, New York.

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The topic is dating and marriage. If you have a question, submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least city and state of residence and country of residence.

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If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private.

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Before you go into some of the main points to bolster your views on courtship in order to find the right spouse that God has set aside for you, if you could answer my, what's the word

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I'm looking for, a hesitation to fully support courtship as an exclusive model.

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One of the things that I can think of if someone believes that the only reason they should begin to ask a person of the opposite gender out to dinner, to a movie, to a concert, is because they have an intention to marry that person if all things go according to their plan and according to their desire during that courtship process.

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They're more than likely, and this is just an assumption of mine, this may not be what is happening out there, but it seems to me that if you're going to only be having such activities with someone you feel fairly certain you're going to marry, you're going to be picking somebody that is one of the most physically attractive people in the church or wherever other

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Christian venue that you might have met this person, and of course you're going to be considering their faith in the

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Lord and perhaps similar interests, but I can't imagine somebody who is looking around them and they're not having much interaction with that person before they begin a courtship.

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I can't imagine them picking somebody that isn't the person that is one of the most physically attractive people in their midst and whereas a more casual setting, and keep in mind folks when

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I say casual I'm not talking about loosening sexual and moral ethics, but if it's more of a dating situation the person might be asking somebody out to dinner that they never in a million years would have thought they would be doing that with and then they find out, wow

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I really do like this person, this person is funny, this person has a keen sense of things that are most near and dear to my heart.

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They get me and all of a sudden the physical aspect, although I think that a physical attraction is important for any marriage, that doesn't become the top priority.

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Now I'm making sense of what I just said. Yes, yeah, I understand the question that you're asking and I think all of the concerns that you have are concerns that I have and I would say that that's where I find a strict delineation between defining dating as one certain thing and the courtship model as another certain thing and pitting them against one another is not what

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I'm trying to do. Okay. I'm trying to instruct single

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Christians on a safe and God -glorifying way to relate to brothers and sisters of the opposite sex.

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And so as far as marriage, I think if you're pursuing marriage and marriage is on your mind, then you are looking toward the future of a perhaps intimate relationship with someone of the opposite sex and that has to begin somewhere.

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Generally, I think that begins in the context of the local church, the neighborhood, friendly collegial relationships in which you can observe a person interacting in their normal environments and see some of their good qualities.

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The questions about whether or not you relate to someone more specifically on how they look rather than what their innards are.

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I think that's a great concern and I would warn Christians against looking primarily to the outside where I would be not setting my foot exactly where yours seems to be is that I wouldn't say the way to discover that is to just sort of have a no intentions.

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Let me just go out one -on -one with the sister and see if I even like her at all.

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I wouldn't suggest that kind of activity one -on -one.

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I think by the time you get to the one -on -one stage, you have already done some pre -work in observing the person, talking to people around them, and discerning what is their character and is this perhaps a person that I would marry or that I would consider marrying.

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Okay, well, let's go into some of the primary aspects of what you believe are essential elements to God -honoring dating or courtship.

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I think so one is the parameters. So the parameters of the framework of thought in my mind is what you're doing in a courtship relationship is moving from a point of this is a person that I might want to marry.

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I think that's where it starts. If you're asking a person to spend one -on -one time with you from the opposite sex, you should be saying to yourself in your mind, this is a person

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I might want to marry. Then you're going to through spending time with them, through talking to people around them, through having deeper conversations, you're trying to move the needle to a point where you say, okay, this is the person

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I want to marry. Now, when you say spending time with them, I guess you're talking about at gatherings where there's multiple people, they're like church settings.

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Is that what you mean? That's one of them. So here's one good thing.

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Intentionality and clarity of communication has got to be a hallmark of this process, which is why

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I say when you ask that person on a first date,

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I think it's got to be clear what your intentions are.

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So regardless of what side of the debate, so to speak, that you fall on, if you ask a girl to go out with you, or if a girl asks a guy to go out and grab a bite, intention should be clear.

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Either it is, I am a single person who I'm looking for a spouse.

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I think you might be that person I'd like to get to know you. Or you say, hey,

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I'm not interested at all in marriage right now. Maybe I might be but I'm not sure. I just want to kick it and and have a fun time.

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However, you're moving, you have to communicate very clearly what your intentions are.

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Because that's always where things begin to go awry when intentions are assumed, or misunderstood.

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So when all of this intentionality really is a key word, that you are clear about what it is that you are pursuing as you are relating to this brother or sister, because it's a very sensitive area of life to begin dabbling in it.

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And it is fraught with temptations to sin and misunderstandings and hurt feelings and, and possible division among the body.

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So, so we must tread carefully and wisely in these waters. Now, when you said that there, in order to be honest, you should at the very first conversation, when you are inviting somebody to dinner or any kind of recreational activity, you said that one of those options was, hey,

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I don't want to know if I want to ever get married, but I just feel like kicking it tonight.

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Are you saying that that is an acceptable thing to do and approach for a

42:53

Christian? From my view? No. Oh, I'm just making it

42:58

I was just making the concession that whatever, whatever you think about dating, whether you're more conservative on my end, or you're not, or you're more, you know, freewheeling on the other side, whichever route you take, what you must do is communicate clearly.

43:20

Right? I think I think that will save saints on both sides of the coin from going awry.

43:28

Now, because I could be wrong. You know what I mean? I could be too uptight.

43:34

And if I am too uptight, I'm saying to those who are listening to me and saying, Keith, you're too uptight.

43:39

I'm saying, well, here, let me tell you something that we all should do, regardless of what side we're on.

43:45

Our communication needs to be very clear. Now, have you heard back from people during your ministries, not only as associate pastor over at North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens, but your more recent appointment at Lindbrook Baptist on Long Island?

44:05

Have you heard back from anybody who says, hey, you know, Pastor Keith, I'm getting turned down every single week when

44:14

I bring up, you know, I really want to get married. And I would like to take you out because perhaps you're the one that God has for me.

44:21

And they look like they're terrified out of their minds. And they say, hey, you know, you know, let's just be friends from a distance.

44:31

Maybe one day we'll go out, but I really don't feel comfortable because I don't even know if I want to be married and such and such.

44:41

You know, that could, especially if a person is being approached by that category

44:48

I mentioned earlier, it might be a woman, if you're talking about the man doing the pursuing, it might be a woman that has never been the kind of person, the category of appearance, the body shape, the height, whatever the case may be, that that person ever found appealing.

45:18

And the guy is approaching this girl, and he is not the hunk of her dreams.

45:29

And she might just immediately, with that kind of pressure, blow him off and say, forget it, you know.

45:35

Or maybe not verbally say forget it, but if you follow him, going back to that whole thing about when you're being very serious so quickly, that could be a terrifying moment.

45:50

It sure can be, it sure can be, which is why how you communicate that is significant.

46:00

You know, so I'm not suggesting that. But although you could do it, you go to a girl, you've never talked to her before, you've only viewed her from afar.

46:09

And you walk up to her one day and you say, hey, I'm interested in getting married. Do you want to get coffee?

46:15

That might work. That might run her off. Right? There are subtleties involved in this thing.

46:22

You know, where this is a sister in your congregation, or you've been around and you've been in group settings, there generally should have already been some sort of interaction, signaling, discussion.

46:38

Like, I don't think this should come out of nowhere and smack the person in the face like they didn't see it coming.

46:44

You know what I mean? Like, I think it is safe in group environments to sort of make your interest known either by specifically making efforts to go talk to this person and engage them and to ask them questions about themselves.

47:04

Like generally, when this starts happening, people understand what's going on. And so by the time you're to the point where you're going one on one, this this is not out of nowhere.

47:17

This is this is already like the way has been prepared. And so I generally suggest that don't don't go cold turkey zero to 60.

47:31

But, but have a plan, lay your materials out in the field before you build your house.

47:37

And, and use some tact and wisdom. You know, this is not without counsel from others.

47:44

This is not without seeking wisdom. You know, there's, there's a way to wage the war that is wise and intentional that seeks to defuse some of these bombs.

48:00

Like this guy just walked up to me and said he wants to marry me. I don't know him from Adam. There's no way I'm getting coffee with him.

48:10

And, and I'll just make note, we just keep saying the man, right, the man, which is, which is belying what

48:17

I think the general principle should be. I think, as I understand biblical manhood,

48:25

I think, generally speaking, the man should be the initiator in these things, though, that doesn't make it sinful or disqualifying for a woman to be the initiator.

48:38

But generally speaking, I think it should, I think a man who is interested in a woman should not wait around for her, but should make his request known to God, and then make his interest known to her.

48:52

Yeah, and over the decades that I have been a Christian, I have heard from sisters in the

48:59

Lord, one of their biggest complaints is that the men, or the young men particularly, you know, the younger generation of men are not making the first approaches to them, you know what

49:17

I'm saying? Yeah. And they are in a male huddle just talking about sports or nerdy stuff, and they're, you know, whenever there's some kind of a social gathering at the church, or some

49:33

Christian social gathering, and, you know, so they have felt, in their minds anyway, compelled to be the initiators.

49:43

Yeah, there was an older brother in my church. I love him. He came around, and I had him come talk to the young adults of the church.

49:52

This brother was 92 at the time, and he had a word for the ladies, you know,

49:57

I'm exhorting the men, like, you know, you got to be the initiators, you got to make the interest known, and this brother came with a counter, and he said, yeah, but ladies, you smile at a brother or something.

50:09

You can't just stand in a corner with your arms folded, sort of huffing and puffing because men aren't coming to talk to you if you're not at all presenting yourself as a person who is open to be talked to.

50:23

You know, so there is a standoffishness on both sides that is constantly a hurdle to be jumped over in this process.

50:34

Right. In fact, the very thing that I just mentioned and that you followed up on has been the reason

50:42

I have heard of many nightmares that have occurred when Christian young ladies are impatient for that young man to sweep her off her feet, as it were, and when the worldly guys, the lost guys, are begging them to go out, they cave in, and they sometimes get married to these men, and I know at least several situations where guys pretended to get saved, married these women, and then proved themselves to be false converts.

51:26

In fact, I even know one case where the guy told his

51:32

Christian wife after she said, she was dating this man before she became a Christian, and she became a

51:40

Christian and said she had to break off the relationship, and he said that he had a born -again experience, started going to church, got baptized.

51:48

On their honeymoon, he said, guess what, I made it all up. Oh, wow. And that later turned into a nightmarish marriage and ended in divorce, because he was an unrepentant serial adulterer.

52:03

Oh, that's terrible. But, you know, that stuff happens, but we have to go to our midway break right now, and please be patient with us folks, because the midway breaks are a little longer than the other breaks in the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:22

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break because the FCC requires of them to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida, where the radio station is located.

52:34

They do so at their own public service announcements and other local things they air in the middle of the show, while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

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So use this time wisely. Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can, so that you can more frequently and successfully contact our advertisers, keeping in mind that we need our advertisers to exist.

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We need the funding that comes from our sponsors to remain on the air. So keep that in mind, even in the worst case scenario, if all you can do is contact an advertiser and say, thank you for sponsoring

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Iron Trump and Zion Radio, please at least do that. And also please send in your questions to Pastor Keith Allen, to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

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We'll be right back. Don't go away. Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

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01:08:51

Before I return to my discussion with Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church in Lindbrook, Long Island on our topic of dating and marriage,

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Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church in Linbrook, Long Island, and that is chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:12:13

gives the first name at least, city and state and country of residence. We are talking about dating and marriage, and before I ask another question of my own, we do have a couple of listener questions.

01:12:25

We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama. One of the perceived drawbacks of courting as opposed to dating is that the courting mindset artificially ratchets up the stakes, and therefore brings potentially unnecessary pressure to bear on a relationship that might prevent that relationship from advancing beyond the most casual phase.

01:12:54

For example, regarding your guest's directive to make intentions clear, a young man saying flat out,

01:13:01

I'm a single person looking for a spouse, as a prelude to getting coffee, a pizza, or watching a movie might scare off someone who otherwise might have ended up being a good marriage partner.

01:13:19

Am I being too worldly in my thinking here, or is this a legitimate concern? Well, if you're being too worldly,

01:13:27

Ted, I guess I am too, because I brought up basically the same thing, but I don't know if there's anything different in the way that Ted nuanced his question as opposed to what

01:13:37

I've already said, but if you could reply to Ted. Yeah, that's a great question.

01:13:44

I think maybe there is a little nuance there. Both your positions sort of initiate or put forth this idea of the fear of the stakes being too high.

01:14:00

I think one thing that we ought to do as believers, I think the stakes are always high.

01:14:07

I think relationally, whether we recognize it or not, the stakes are always relatively high.

01:14:17

If you're a single person looking for a spouse, but you feel like it's weird to say that you are a single person looking for a spouse,

01:14:27

I think there's something off there. I think if there are two single people around one another in one another's orbits, if they're looking for a spouse,

01:14:40

I think it should be understood. Now, whether or not you say that in such blatant terms on the first request for a meeting, that's, you know, there's no biblical guidelines for that.

01:14:54

I'm just saying that your position needs to be understood. And if you're planning to spend individual time with a person of the opposite sex, you need to very quickly and very soon make understood to them what exactly it is that you are doing.

01:15:13

You know, I was just reminded of a situation, a dear friend of mine, former pastor of the

01:15:23

Massapequa Church of God on Long Island, Jim Capo, when he was a young single man and not a pastor as of yet, a member of a church on Long Island other than the

01:15:39

Massapequa Church of God, where his wife, his soon -to -be wife at the time, was also a member.

01:15:48

He approached her, I think it may have been a church barbecue or something,

01:15:53

I don't know, but he approached her and said, I believe God has brought you into my life because I believe he intends for you to be my wife.

01:16:07

And that was like the first thing he ever said to her. And although I think, if I'm not mistaken from the story,

01:16:14

I think that she was a little put off or frightened by that, but they eventually got married and they've been married for many years and have,

01:16:22

I think, five or six kids. But that also places another thought in my head.

01:16:29

And at the time, I think that Jim may have become more of a cessationist by now.

01:16:39

He became the pastor of a Pentecostal church, but I think he may be a cessationist now.

01:16:45

He was definitely heading that way in the years that I know him. But is it at all proper to make a bold statement like,

01:16:55

I think God has called you to be my spouse? That may indicate some kind of supernatural revelation that neither you nor I, Pastor Keith, believe happens today.

01:17:09

And I'm not saying that God can't give us some kind of an inclination of, wow, in Providence, I've met this person.

01:17:18

They seem to have all the ideals that a good Christian wife should possess.

01:17:23

I really like this person and say, you know, something of that effect. But is it right to say,

01:17:30

I believe God told me you're going to be my wife? That's probably not your strongest opening line.

01:17:44

You know, I don't believe authoritative prophecy on par with Scripture exists today.

01:17:52

So I would say, generally speaking, you should not say that. But if you are a brother who is so bold as to say,

01:18:00

Sister, I've met you and before God, I think

01:18:05

I want to marry you. Hey, give it a shot. I mean, what's the worst that could happen?

01:18:10

You get shot down. You get shot down with a normal line. Don't lie. You know, right.

01:18:17

You got to walk in an honoring way. So something that I tell brothers all the time is that you got to recognize that any

01:18:27

Christian woman is your sister until she becomes your wife.

01:18:33

Well, in one sense, she's always your sister, isn't she? Correct. Correct. She's only your sister.

01:18:41

And that makes dating in the Christian realm. It's a difficult thing to wrap your mind around because you're stepping into this gray area where you desire this sister to become your intimate life partner.

01:18:56

But she's not. And you're considering the possibilities. And if you are and if the feelings are mutual, you're you're beginning to move towards that direction.

01:19:08

But there is still a place of honor and purity and care for the heart of the sister as a sister that that is different until the marriage covenant is sealed.

01:19:22

And that's part and that's one of the reasons why I think open communication is so significant from the beginning.

01:19:29

And this may be a reaction in me from getting saved in the midst of dating from a very worldly perspective in the world.

01:19:38

What you do is you casually hang out with a woman or with a person of the opposite sex and you have fun and you just kind of do stuff.

01:19:48

And everybody's wondering, where is this going? What are we doing? And so you often hear, you know, the

01:19:55

DTR has to be had. Or now now we've been dating for two years and I really want him to propose and he's not doing anything.

01:20:03

And it's like the only reason you get to that point is because proper community and clear communication about intention has not been given.

01:20:12

And while sometimes people might be scared by direct, clear communication, because that's not what we're used to.

01:20:21

Direct, clear communication is the most helpful for everybody. By the way, you introduced me to a new acronym or acrostic.

01:20:31

What's a DTR? Define the relationship. It's a define the relationship moment.

01:20:39

You know, what what are we? Are we just friends? Are we dating? Are you actually interested in me?

01:20:46

Are we moving towards marriage? And they usually come at the point when a relationship gets tense and weird, because nobody's really sure what exactly is happening.

01:20:57

And and I don't think Christians should live in that space for very long at all, if ever.

01:21:03

It happens. But I think you should be seeking to avoid those spaces and be very clear about where your head is at with regard to the any relationship.

01:21:17

And I'm assuming you would agree that no one should ever accept an invitation for a date from somebody who says, if I pay for your plastic surgery, would you consider marrying?

01:21:42

Just kidding, folks. And we have a woman with a very interesting well, actually,

01:21:53

I'm sorry, I don't know if it's a woman, but it's a very interesting name. Chimsey.

01:21:59

And I just had chimneys question in front of me, here it is.

01:22:06

I apologize if I misguessed your gender. Chimsey says, what about in a student college university setting or in a workplace setting?

01:22:20

These environments are different. How can these be handled? What are the steps in approaching a woman?

01:22:26

Oh, I'm sorry, Chimsey, you're a man. What are the steps in approaching a woman or how should a man approach the woman?

01:22:35

Or he actually just repeated himself in the same, just different wording. So obviously,

01:22:44

I'm assuming Chimsey is stating this question with the knowledge that the person that you're approaching is a

01:22:54

Christian. But if you could just answer that, this is about the approaching a person in a college, university or work situation.

01:23:06

Yeah, I think those are, I think those are two very different locations or situations.

01:23:14

A general rule that has that I've that that I have known throughout my life as a dating man, and haven't always followed to my detriment, is to not get involved with people at work.

01:23:30

Again, that that generally comes from myself working as a pagan in a non

01:23:37

Christian setting. But again, here's where communication becomes very clear.

01:23:44

If two people are Christian in the workplace, and one Christian, presumably the male here in this question is desiring a spouse, you would have to assess the risk of the damage you would cause to your workplace environment.

01:24:09

If this attempt goes awry. We're Christians are part of the fulfillment of the blessing of Abraham because we're connected to Christ, we bring blessing to all the nations.

01:24:26

So so are you going to destroy the culture of your workplace by pursuing a relationship with someone in the workplace?

01:24:37

And is the risk worth the reward? I said that would be the first question that I would ask myself.

01:24:46

Because again, this is this is a hot button topic in workplaces, but also in churches.

01:24:53

Saints are navigating this same question. Oh, I don't want to ask certain sister out because then things will be weird.

01:25:01

And I don't want to feel weird coming to church. These are real concerns.

01:25:08

Oh, yeah, bring me back to my bring me back to my standard point where we as Christians have to live in reality.

01:25:17

And so number one, you have to communicate clearly what your desires and intentions are.

01:25:23

And two, if the other person is not on board with you, you just need to take it as from the

01:25:30

Lord and not be bitter or weird about it. You know, just keep it moving.

01:25:36

It doesn't have to be a big thing. You know, if your pride is hurt because someone rejected you, that's a pride problem.

01:25:44

God didn't say this woman had to be interested in you. Let it go. Keep moving.

01:25:50

Right. And vice versa. And people do have radically different legitimate tastes, for lack of a different word.

01:26:00

Uh, you know, it doesn't mean that it doesn't necessarily mean that you're lacking in something.

01:26:07

But, you know, it just could be that you're not with the exact kind of person that the person is looking for because of the things that they love to do and the way that they want to spend their life and all that kind of thing.

01:26:22

And even a lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the

01:26:27

Lord. And so the brother or the sister says, no, say that is the

01:26:32

Lord's answer to you in this moment, that that is not who he intends for you. And, uh,

01:26:39

I'm sorry if I didn't remember if you addressed Chimsey's question about the school setting of college university.

01:26:47

Do you have any unique? I mean, it could be a Christian college. I mean, but but maybe it's not.

01:26:53

Maybe you just know the person is Christian and you're attending a secular university.

01:26:59

Yeah, that that's always the first and most important thing. If you are a believer and you're going to pursue a person, your first work is to understand with as much certainty as you can gather that this person belongs to Jesus Christ.

01:27:15

The college thing brings in another issue, which is are these people that are ready for marriage and pursuing marriage?

01:27:23

Or is this just a kind of like, hey, there's just a bunch of young single people on campus and we're all just interested in one another.

01:27:30

So their their communication also becomes very key. What are what are my intentions?

01:27:38

What sort of timeline is marriage even a possibility for me? How would that how would that work out?

01:27:46

What does that look like? What are the accountability structures? I think that's the biggest thing on a on a school campus kind of environment is do you have people in your life that are looking after you and holding you accountable so that you're not tempted to sin or to step beyond bounds, which would be displeasing to the

01:28:12

Lord. And I'm assuming you would also believe one has to be very careful about pursuing a serious relationship with somebody of the opposite sex, even if they're

01:28:27

Christian and they are of a completely different theological background.

01:28:34

I mean, I'm not saying that can never be appropriate, but I think you have to be willing to give up the way a household is run.

01:28:47

If you marry somebody who has a radically different opinion on things like infant baptism is a big one.

01:28:53

Yeah. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard of a Baptist marrying a

01:28:59

Presbyterian where they didn't raise the household like Presbyterians. I don't think

01:29:05

I've ever heard of the other direction. But but, you know, what are your thoughts on that?

01:29:12

I think there are a number of significant things there.

01:29:18

There is a sister that I know who showed up on the first date with a brother with a list of about 51 questions.

01:29:27

And she goes, listen, I am a single person interested in marriage. These questions are all very important.

01:29:37

And so if any of these questions we don't match up on, this can be the last date that we go on.

01:29:46

And while everybody is not going to be that thorough and upfront, I think the spirit of that is significant in what you're talking about.

01:29:56

When you begin this dating process that is ideally moving towards marriage, you've got to ask these types of questions, things that are just going to rend your household apart if you're not agreed on these things.

01:30:14

I actually know a good friend of mine who presented his now wife before they were married.

01:30:22

In fact, it might have been their very first date. He presented her with a list.

01:30:28

And actually, he did say, I want you to write a list of things that you are looking for in a husband.

01:30:35

And they both did that. And I think she had about four things and he had like 700.

01:30:43

But they did get married and they appear to be extremely happy. I've been with them out to dinner.

01:30:49

I've been with them on long car rides and they seem to be very happy. And I'm assuming that another no -no, something that you would prohibit and warn against and count as a horrible first line to approach a woman with, would be the lyrics to Bruno Mars' song.

01:31:19

It's a beautiful night. We're looking for something dumb to do. Hey, baby, I think

01:31:25

I want to marry you. Is it the look in your eyes or is it this dancing juice?

01:31:32

Who cares, baby? I think I want to marry you. That's a no -no, isn't it? I didn't picture you for a

01:31:39

Bruno Mars guy. Well, obviously, I'm bringing it up because I think it's a ludicrous song.

01:31:48

And a friend of mine, not a believer, had that as his wedding song.

01:31:54

And I hope he's not upset if he's hearing this. But I'm amazed his bride approved of this.

01:32:03

I mean, because if anything, what's the word I'm looking for?

01:32:09

A male chauvinist kind of a song. Like, you know, this is no big deal to me, just getting married, whatever.

01:32:18

And, you know, doesn't matter if it lasts. I mean, the song even goes on with that kind of thing.

01:32:26

But yeah, if we don't make up and we want to break up, that's cool or something like that.

01:32:33

Wow. And that speaks to the umbrella that's over this whole dating congregation.

01:32:44

The seriousness with which I think Christians should approach dating slash courtship, whatever you want to call it, is based on a high reverence for the institution of marriage.

01:33:05

I think dating and relationships between males and females are done poorly.

01:33:14

Because marriage is not recognized for what it is. If you take marriage as seriously as the

01:33:24

Lord takes marriage, and you see what God has intended marriage to be, that will radically alter how you think about talking about marriage, approaching marriage, and even approaching the dating idea.

01:33:48

I think the significance of the institution of marriage governs all of that.

01:33:55

Amen. And by the way, Chimsey, I think you are a first -time questioner.

01:34:00

I can't remember that for certain. But if you are, you have won a free

01:34:05

New American Standard Bible. So please give me your full mailing address in Baldwin, Long Island, so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

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can ship that Bible out to you, absolutely free of charge. And we want to thank NASBible .com

01:34:21

for providing us with an unlimited supply of Bibles that we give away to first -time questioners.

01:34:30

And we also want to thank CVBBS .com for shipping those Bibles out to our winners. Here's another very controversial, and I don't think an easy question to answer.

01:34:43

Because of the fact that we have a command of God, and I think that Covenantal and New Covenant theology

01:34:54

Christians still agree, even if they have some differences on the

01:35:00

Decalogue, the Covenant Reformed Christian and the

01:35:06

New Covenant theology Christians still agree that we're supposed to honor our father and mother. What do you do when you start courting somebody, or perhaps before you start courting them, you do it the real old -fashioned way, when the man approaches the father, if he's still living, and if not, the mother, if she's still living, and says,

01:35:29

I would like your permission to begin a courtship relationship with your daughter with the intention of marriage.

01:35:37

And the parent says, no way, pal. And it may be a completely illegitimate reason.

01:35:42

It may be because the parent is a bigot, and you have a different skin color than their daughter.

01:35:49

It may be that you're not Italian. It may be that you're not Greek. It may be that you're not

01:35:55

Scandinavian or Irish. You know, we could go on and on and on. It may be that you don't make enough money for that parent's taste.

01:36:07

Are we always supposed to, as Christians, even obey the decision of even an unbelieving parent in that regard?

01:36:18

What are your thoughts on that? Because that's really a tough one, in my opinion. Oh, there's so much nuance to that.

01:36:26

So you have to take some scriptural guardrails as you think about how to pursue that.

01:36:35

Ephesians 6 .1 says, children, obey your parents in the

01:36:40

Lord. You know, I don't know,

01:36:46

I wouldn't imagine that a grown adult has the biblical necessity to obey their parents as a matter of fiat, like whatever my parents say

01:37:02

I must do. Even if they're a young adult, but maybe they're still living under the roof of their parents.

01:37:11

So that alters the discussion.

01:37:17

Are they still living as a child? Are they still in the household? What's their level of dependence?

01:37:25

All those things will play into what degree of weight they should give.

01:37:33

The Bible certainly says that we ought to honor father and mother. I think that's without question.

01:37:41

And regardless of age, you ought to honor your father and your mother.

01:37:48

And then you have what scripture says about marriage. For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

01:38:00

So what's happening in the marriage relationship is that you come away from the authority structures of your parental households and you join with another and you form your own household.

01:38:17

And so with those ideas guarding your mind, then you have to decide what is the

01:38:27

God pleasing thing to do when we meet this roadblock. And that will be dictated by certainly what the reasons for the refusal are.

01:38:39

And if you get the refusal and you still want to marry the person, you need to work really hard to have conversation with the parent about what their refusals are.

01:38:48

They might have some wisdom for you that will be helpful. They might be completely off base, but you have to communicate with them as much as you can if you want to honor them.

01:39:01

You also have to make note that if you marry this person, you are binding yourself to their family line.

01:39:13

And you want to have good relationships with your spouse's family. That's one of the biggest tensions that can come upon a marriage is when the two families are at odds.

01:39:23

And so even if the parents are way off base, you might want to proceed with caution and not just completely bulldoze their decision with an eye towards perhaps winning them and gaining a better family relationship with them down the road.

01:39:50

I mean, there's so much to be considered in a situation like that.

01:39:59

So those are just some basic things, but you would really need to understand the specifics of the situation to make a call either way.

01:40:09

Now, I think that even a Christian—I'm not saying that the

01:40:15

Christian adult needs to automatically follow through with the insistence of the unbelieving parent.

01:40:26

You know, he says he doesn't want you to marry his daughter because his friends at the

01:40:32

Ku Klux Klan meeting are going to be upset. That's not a legitimate reason. But at the same time, there are unbelievers that have certain insight and wisdom that we shouldn't just write off immediately.

01:40:46

Am I correct? Correct, correct. So we can't or shouldn't just immediately blow the person off because they're not saved.

01:40:56

There are lost people that do have more wisdom in certain areas of life than even believers because of certain experience or what have you.

01:41:07

That's absolutely right. Well, I already know that I want you to come back to discuss marriage more thoroughly, because we haven't even—even though everything that we've said involves marriage, we've been discussing primarily the things that lead up to that.

01:41:26

But we do have one more segment, and maybe you want to start the ball rolling with a marriage discussion.

01:41:34

But we should schedule another date for you to come back, and there's no pun intended with date.

01:41:41

But we've got to have you come back to talk about marriage more completely. But if you have a question, please submit it now because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:41:50

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. I'm Dr.

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and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line. We have Jonah in Quarryville, Pennsylvania, and Jonah says,

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I know people personally who, in order to appease the parents, even though both the bride and groom were evangelical

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Christians, they allowed a Roman Catholic priest to participate in the wedding ceremony in order to keep the parents, the

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Catholic parents, on board with the marriage. Is this a wrong way of appeasing unbelievers?

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I personally am very opposed to that. You know, where do you stop? Do you have a rabbi?

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Do you have an imam from a mosque? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's pretty wild.

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Yeah, I mean, I think my answer would be no. But all right, so picture this scenario.

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I'm just I'm just trying to think as charitably as possible and not make assumptions.

01:54:59

If this guy is going to come and preach the gospel, though perhaps he belongs to a

01:55:08

Roman Catholic called church. You mean their gospel? Because Rome?

01:55:15

No, I mean, no, no, I'm being the gospel. Okay. I don't know how that might happen.

01:55:20

I'm all right. Well, we have this guy, you know, Uncle Tony. He's a

01:55:27

Roman Catholic priest. We really want him to do your wedding. All right, but he can't bring any of that Roman Catholic doctrine in my wedding.

01:55:36

He's got to preach the gospel and talk about marriage according to Scripture. New York has has authorized him to marry them.

01:55:45

Like we don't say that any marriage is invalid because it wasn't done by a Christian minister.

01:55:54

So, so in that sense, maybe there's wiggle room.

01:56:00

But like, now you started talking about having a mass at the wedding. No, you know, that's, that's clearly unbiblical and, and displeasing to God.

01:56:12

Yeah, I don't even like the appearance of that. The, the person representing a false religion that has anathematized every evangelical

01:56:22

Christian, no matter how liberal their ecumenism is today, it's not dogma.

01:56:29

Their dogma states that we are anathema. I don't have any comfort level with that at all.

01:56:34

The only thing that may be a place for that would be, okay, he can give the toast at the reception as long, as long as, as long as he doesn't provide any

01:56:51

Roman Catholic mumbo jumbo and keeps it kind of, in this case,

01:56:58

I would want the priest to be secular. I wouldn't want him to be religious. But anyway, that's my, that's my two cents.

01:57:08

And yeah, yeah, you're asking me to give a lightning quick. Right, right, right, right.

01:57:13

But, but real life, somebody sits down before me, let's ask all the questions, let's talk it out.

01:57:19

And let's, and let's get to, let's get to being sure about where, where we can't draw lines.

01:57:27

Yeah. One of the reasons I gave my wiggle room is because I don't know of any evangelical pastor, no matter how conservative he is, who would say the unsaved

01:57:40

Uncle Tony couldn't give the speech and the, at the wedding toast at the reception, even though, even though he's lost, even though if he's not a priest, but he's just a lost guy.

01:57:52

You know, maybe he's a wise guy. Don't wear the vestments. Don't wear the vestments.

01:57:59

Well, I'd like you to, in a minute, summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:58:11

As you think about dealing with members of the opposite sex.

01:58:17

And as you consider the question of dating versus courtship, just remember to keep your thoughts about how you relate to brothers and sisters of the opposite sex under the umbrella of marriage.

01:58:35

God made men and women to be complimentary in this way. And when you begin to move in a direction of intimacy, of behavior, of time of conversation with a member of the opposite sex, marriage and the concept of it is looming, whether you yourself are thinking about it or not.

01:59:03

And so let the covenant of marriage and its significance and everything that scripture has said about it, color, how you think about dating and courtship.

01:59:21

And we're out of time, and I definitely want you back for part two of this. And I want to remind our listeners that the website for Linbrook Baptist Church on Long Island is linbrookbaptist .org,

01:59:31

L -Y -N -B -R -O -O -K, baptist .org. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater